WEBVTT - Evil Rich White Dudes 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.600 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wikay f Daily with 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:20.160 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.720 I am very excited to bring to you my very 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:28.000 last interview of twenty twenty two. I've been doing a 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.639 lot of reflecting, as I know that many of you 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.800 have been, as we wind down this year, and one 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:36.920 of the areas that I have been thinking a lot 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.199 about has been work and labor and the way that 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.159 work and labor has been transformed or is in the 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:49.280 midst of a big upheaval and transformation, and it was 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:54.720 brought on in large part by the pandemic, where those 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.120 that were privileged and able to stay at home and 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.440 stay safe had a lot of time to be able 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.240 to think about the ways that we wanted to engage 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.240 with work for those that were laid off but then 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.839 were cared for by our government by giving us our 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.000 tax dollars back in terms of being able to have 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.600 breathing room as we were given the opportunity to transition 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.880 into something else. Then, of course, there are those the 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.040 quote unquote essential workers that are so essential we don't 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.480 pay them a living fucking wage, who kept the world 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.039 going while the rest of us were able to take 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:41.479 a respite from it. I've been thinking a lot about 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.920 the ways in which our lives are controlled by capitalism, 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:52.880 are driven by other people's greed, and is about extraction 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.920 more so than it is about investment. I think about 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:03.360 the relationship that we have to rest and the relationship 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:08.640 that we have to work, and how there is this 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.320 sense of guilt that comes over at least I will 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.600 speak for myself, that comes over me when I am 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:22.360 not consistently producing, consistently creating content, consistently putting out into 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.640 the world, which means I am taking from myself in 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.720 order to give. And I think about those people who 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:35.160 are extracted from and are given very little in return. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.000 And so it makes sense then that my last interview 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.920 for twenty twenty two would be with organizer and freelance 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:51.600 writer and author Kim Kelly. If you listen to my 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.880 other podcast, Democracy, Ish was Jahat and I had her 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.359 on several months ago to talk about her book, told 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:05.040 story of American labor fight Like How. And in this 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.480 conversation with Kim, you know, I get to do a 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.639 bit more of a deep dive and a bit more 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.480 of what I hope to make the theme of twenty 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:21.320 twenty three, which is I don't want to have us 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:30.359 be brought down, beleaguered with the minutia of the thing. 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:36.240 I want us to work towards being an existing, even 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.720 for a little bit in a dreamscape. What does it 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.160 mean to think bigger and better outside of the reality 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.560 of the current moment, so that we can create the 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:53.480 future that is equitable, the multiracial democracy that we need, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:58.120 That we should have the equitable workforce that should be 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:03.960 human centered and not centered on how much can be extracted. 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.920 And the value of your humanness is measured by how 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:13.120 much you can produce when you start to think about it, folks, 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.920 as many of you will. And again, this is for 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:21.800 the privileged few who are actually able to work themselves 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.479 to death to get to the end of the year, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.760 to be able to claim that seven glorious days of 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.200 being so exhausted, so worn down that you probably don't 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.400 do all of the things that you imagine that you 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:40.680 would have yourself do on your winter break because you 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:48.080 were so exhausted depleted that you end up sleeping the 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.279 entire break. And look, I'm not saying that you should 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.320 feel bad about that. I'm saying, think about how hard 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.000 it is that we all labor in our different industry 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:06.080 reason spaces to just get to claim seven days of respite. 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.760 I've been saying this for the past couple of weeks 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.400 that I have been I don't know, with the three 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:20.440 podcasts that I now have recording at least five interviews 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.480 a day in order to be able to take one 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.680 week off right. The other shows will have outside of 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.679 woke AF, will have new content that comes out woke AF. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.440 I'm giving myself as well as my producer Andrew, a 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:42.240 break from needing to put out content every day for 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.240 a week. And you know, I have been thinking a 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:52.760 lot about my personal relationship to work and to worthiness, 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.600 as well as the mentality, the American mentality in our 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:02.359 culture of capitalism and greed that drives it and makes 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.720 us even believe that when we are when we do 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.360 have the ability and the privilege to take a respite, 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:14.400 to have some downtime, that it's saddled with guilt, or 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.400 that we've been working ourselves to the bone so much 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.680 that we don't even get to enjoy it fully because 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:25.960 we spend most of it unconscious. That shouldn't be the 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:31.560 way it really shouldn't be. I want to end the 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:38.839 year feeling refreshed and recharged, not depleted and exhausted and miserable. Frankly, 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.200 and I'm not, you know, I am admitting this as 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.400 much to myself as I am to all of you, 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:52.600 that my challenge and my intention for twenty twenty three 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.120 is to think about the ways in which I want 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.520 to engage with work, and the way is I want 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.680 to engage with rest, and that rest is not a 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.920 gift that I'm giving to myself. It's not something that 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.320 I am earning by virtue of Oh, Danielle, you've put 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.080 out so much content, you get to take a nap. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.560 It's the only way that I get to continue doing 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.559 the work that I do is because I'm a human 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.040 being who requires rest and rest from guilt, and rest 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.440 from shame, and rest from oppression, and rest from racism, 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.560 and rest from all of these fucking things that pick 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:40.480 at us all day, every single day. So for those 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.680 of you who do and will take holiday break and 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:49.440 have the ability to think, I want us all you know, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.800 as you listen to this episode and this interview with 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.800 Kim Kelly to think about your own relationship to work 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.960 your own relationship to labor and what are some of 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.920 the ways and maybe write them down. What are some 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.800 of the ways that you want to challenge yourself to 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:13.200 think better and be better to yourself to yourself this 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:18.480 coming year. What are some intentions that you want to 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.920 inseet and some boundaries you want to create so that 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:29.720 you can show up better for yourself daily. Coming up 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:35.400 next my interview with author, freelance writer and labor organizer 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:42.680 Kim Kelly Folks. I am very happy to welcome back 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.640 to woke f Daily Kim Kelly, author of the book 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:52.559 The Untold Story of American Labor Fight Like Hell. Freelance 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:57.880 writer and organizer Kim, You know, it has been a 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:03.679 really interesting year for workers in America. I think that 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.520 more people, regardless of whether it is an office job, 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.960 whether it is a delivery job, a rail job, teachers 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.640 that how we have been thinking about work, how we 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:23.280 have been engaging with work has changed and fundamentally changed 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.400 because of the global health pandemic that had those of 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.599 us who were privileged and not quote unquote essential workers 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.520 the opportunity to slow down or forcefully be fired and 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:41.560 laid off, but to think about how we value our humanism, right, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:47.000 our ability to have rest, to have breaks with the 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:52.480 relentlessness of capitalism and the requirement of production, and can 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:58.240 constant and unrelenting production to show our value. And I 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.840 wanted to get a sense before we into kind of 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.960 the nitty greedy, just how you have been thinking about 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:11.640 twenty twenty two and how conversations around labor and work 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.760 have shifted differently in this year than they have in 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.160 years prior. Yeah, I mean, I think you're exactly right 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.719 by mentioning the pandemic which we're still living through those 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.559 of us who are lucky enough to survive it, right, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.920 even though where there's this sort of perception being pushed 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:33.760 on us that it's it's over, it's fine, go by 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:39.600 Christmas presents. But like you're saying, these past god two 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.439 three years, people I guess people I guess who got 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.320 to stay inside and kind of think a little bit more, 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.360 and workers who had to go out and keep the 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.440 world running. I think there's been this this kind of 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.200 mass shifting consciousness around the value of our lives and 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.839 with that the value of our labor, and a lot 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.800 of people have been taking action and and just acting 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.920 upon those new realizations by organizing, by striking, by protesting, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.080 by standing up against their bosses, no matter how rich 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.160 or fancy or scary they may be, and saying this 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.080 is enough. You know, you can't make the profit, you 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.959 can't enjoy the luxuries, you cannot bask in the unearned 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.280 social capital that you have without us, without our blood, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:26.200 sweat and tears. And we're coinciding with this the very 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:31.280 least compared to the previous administration, pro labor administration, that 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.680 has opened up some wiggle room, that has empowered the NLRB, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.400 even if it hasn't funded it properly. That is, at 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.440 the very least been making pro union statements, which I 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.560 know it's all hot air, but it helps for some 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:48.440 people to see, okay, like the people in charge, the president, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.800 he cares about us. He thinks she used her a 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.560 good thing. At the very least for some people that matters, 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.240 and that's fine. And for everyone who is not necessarily 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:01.280 interested in that propaganda spectacle, it's opens up some wingle room. 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.240 And we've seen so much more organizing happening with younger people. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.320 I guess, gen Z, I hate acknowledging that there's a 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:14.240 generation younger than me, But it happens with us all eventually, 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:19.800 everyone but this younger generation. And you know, we've seen 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.280 all of these, especially headlines around graduate student work and 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.959 Amazon workers and Starbucks workers, workers in retail that are 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.720 leading this kind of new organizing charge. So many of 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.840 them are young, So many of them are black and 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.760 brown specifically, so many of them are queer and trans. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.440 The face of labor as it's understood in the sort 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.320 of mainstream level, you know, the white guy in a 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:45.720 hard hat. That's changing too, and that is showing that 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.120 there is so much more space for so many other 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.280 kinds of workers and kinds of identities and kinds of backgrounds. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.320 Like that's what my whole book is about, right, And 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.080 that's what we're seeing play out. We have an entire 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.280 generation who have come of age post recession, post Bernie 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.960 the first time, post you know, the rise of these 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.080 tech oligarchs that somehow are able to control our entire lives. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.960 This generation is not as it seems like, they're maybe 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.280 not quite as beaten down as ours was. And they're like, Okay, 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:16.839 we got to get out there and do some more 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.200 about this. The world's on fire. We have zero options. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.600 Maybe we can unionize and do something about it. So 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.800 there's all these different things happening at the same time, 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.920 and we have this moment in labor where it seems 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.800 like we're actually, you know, pushing forward a little bit 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.800 instead of being stuck on our back foot like we've 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.520 happen for so long. You know, I want to talk 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.960 about Generation Z for a minute, because I think that, right, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.600 like every every generation has its moment in the sun, 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:48.320 meaning that there is something or some things that occur 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:53.959 that are defining moments, right and for Generation Z, I 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.640 think that, you know, and again they are referred to 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.320 in allotted hood from ways and TikTok, generation Generation Z, right, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:05.240 the the meme generation, all of these things. But the 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:10.240 reality is is that they are the first generation, as 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.199 economists have said, that will actually be doing worse than 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:19.240 their parents and caregivers, right, that actually will most likely 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.920 not be buying a home, not be buying a car 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:30.440 that don't have the ability, which personally, you know, and 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.720 this is coming from a privileged middle class space that, 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.680 like your twenties, are supposed to be about finding out 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.040 who you are and what the fuck you want to do, 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.160 as opposed to clinging on for dear life. So what 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.720 is it you know that that you see or that 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.920 you hear and you read and you write about this 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.960 generation as to what is sparking them in terms of unionizing, 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.120 in terms of pushing back that didn't happen for millennials 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:04.120 or jen As right, that is unique, I guess to 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.800 this generation. I think the fact that this almost this 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.920 entire generation are so digitally native, like they grew up 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.200 with the Internet and with that social media and with 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:19.720 that access to sharing information among their peers and taking 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.360 in new sources that aren't just MSNBC or Fox News 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.040 or where others they had. When I was a kid, 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:26.760 I grew up in the middle of Wes. We've barely 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.600 had the Internet like at all, and now you have 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.160 an entire world on your phone if you have one. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.080 I think just the ease with which communication is fostered 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.640 between younger folks and information is shared and spread and 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.960 grievances are aired, and the fact that these digital spaces 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.040 are places for people to organize and come together. I 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.080 think that it's had such a big shift because I 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.360 mean for millennials, yeah, we had the Internet, we had 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.360 some technology, but it's not like what this younger generation 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.120 has and they're so fluent in that. And I think 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.800 of this organizer in Alabama saying he's twenty one, he's 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.160 part of the effort to organize an Amazon warehouse and 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.200 bestomer and I asked him about all this, so I 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.480 saw him. I saw him down there recently. It's like, look, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.240 I grew up watching my parents struggle and work over time, 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.680 and I never saw them. And there were millennials, and 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.160 I knew that I didn't want that for myself. Like 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.960 my generation, we know that the politicians don't care about us, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.400 they just want our votes. We know that all of 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.120 these power structures that you know we're supposed to rely 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.400 on aren't there for us. We're born into this burning planet, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.080 like it seems like everything stacked up against us. So 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.320 why wouldn't we organize and try and fight back and 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.280 do something about it? Because we have some of these tools, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.560 We have the energy, we have the motivation, and we 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.280 don't really have any other choice. Right It's either stand 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.600 there and let the world happen to you, or get 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.480 out there and try and make it a little bit 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:53.080 better at least tolerable while you're there. You know, I 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.520 think that that is so right. Just there's so much 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.360 philosophy and what you just said, either stand there and 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.160 let the world happen to you, or you know, or 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.399 do something or organize, you know, around it. And I 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.760 think that we have had such a and such a 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:16.600 disturbing relationship with capitalism, right, it is it is this 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:22.359 burden sum necessary evil. But I didn't feel that way, Kim, 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:25.240 when I was coming out of college, when I was 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.399 entering into into the workforce in a real way for 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.000 the first time, I felt like, and you know, maybe 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:38.719 it's because the the the dust of you know, the 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.199 gas lighting and the lies that have been told about 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.680 You're only as worth worthy as you are fruitful, right, 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.800 fruitful in your production. You're only as worthy as you 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.199 are fruitful. So if you have nothing, right, it is 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.120 because you have invested nothing, you have worked for nothing, right, 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.800 it is it's the way that we have built this 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.239 belief that if you are in poverty, it's because you 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.440 just don't work hard enough. Right. And then we have 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:17.360 idolized and deitized these ultrawealthy, right, saying that if they 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.719 bless you, if they have so much wealth, right, if 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:26.600 they are multibillionaires, it's because they are geniuses. It's because 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.520 they work so hard, right, and then there's there's the 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:35.040 shrinking rest that fall in the middle, but are still 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.879 a paycheck away from that struggle. So what do you 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.040 think has happened over the course of I guess you know, 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:50.040 thirty years right in this country that has shifted the 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.080 way that we talk Because when folks used to talk 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.399 about capitalism, you were thought about on the fringe of 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.400 the fringe, right when you talked about it was kind 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.600 of this conspiracy theory of all these people are puppeteering 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.040 us in all of these things. Now it's part of 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.120 mainstream discourse. So what do you think has happened over 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.560 the last thirty years that has us in the place 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:19.120 that we're in right now when we discuss capitalism, worthiness, labor, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:25.240 laziness versus genius. Man. So I'm thirty four, so basically 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.600 this has been my whole life just living through this shift, right. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.280 And I remember, like you said, growing up, my parents, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.479 like we're a blue collar construction worker family, and like 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.919 my dad loved Ronald Reagan and had terrible opinions, And 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.200 I was like, you gotta work hard because no one's 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.320 going to hand anything to you. People that people this unwellfare, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.280 people that like the message that was drilled into my 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:48.680 head I was like, you have to work harder, you 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.080 ain't gonna have nothing. And I was like, okay, and 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.600 I took that to heart. So I worked hard. But 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.000 I ended up in like this this non traditional space. 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.080 Like I worked in the music business, was a roadie 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.560 in a music journalist before I started cover R Labor, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.040 So I never really thought I would have access to 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.199 that path anyway. But that was a choice obviously, like 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.359 I was going to do something different, almost famous it, 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.840 but like and it just throughout that experience of getting 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.040 to know people in like different backgrounds and reading books 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.359 and finding marks and finding anarchists and finding all the 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.080 things that that some people are able to come across 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.600 when they go digging, Like that helps shape my political 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:24.920 perspective perspective in the way that I kind of moved 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.000 in the world. But but the generation who like were 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.439 coming up after me, they didn't have to, like, you know, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.920 dig around in the university library and try and find 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.800 a copy of Capital, Like they could look to Occupy 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.919 Wall Street. They could follow Bernie Sanders or AOC on Twitter, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.560 and of course, yeah, they're politicians. That's not necessarily like 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.359 I'm not a here, you know, I'm just saying that 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:50.320 is a place where some people can come across these 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.840 ideas in a way they can translate and use in 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:56.200 their own political development, right, Like I think these ideas 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.520 post I mean, I think we can't undersell the importance 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.199 of Occupy High. We can't undersell the importance of the 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:08.240 Bernie Sanders presidential campaign, like just in terms of shining 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.560 a light and really publicizing this idea of the one 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.480 percent of these class divisions, of this rampant inequality that's 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.640 to find our lives. I think those were big moments 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.320 for people that maybe weren't necessarily hanging out with food 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.919 not bombs, or like didn't have cool radical parents. Like 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.480 that was an entryway and you kind of can't put 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:31.000 that genie back in the bottle. Those conversations opened up, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.639 and now there's been so much more development and so 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.240 many more people chiming in as so many other movements have, 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.400 you know, have opened up that space even further, whether 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.560 it's talking about the movement for Black Lives or me Too, 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.400 or gender justice and trans rights, like there's it's all 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.159 just out there in the open now because it's been 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.240 cracked open and people have access to social media, there's 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.560 a younger generation of journalists and content creators who are 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.240 getting these messages out there and sharing these ideas. Is 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.600 like it's not and you know, podcasting happened in the 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.800 past thirty Yeah, Like there's I think there's just so 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.560 much more access to information that you could stumble upon 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.040 if you don't have to know what you're looking for. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.680 You can be sixteen and go on TikTok and see 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.560 someone doing a video about how their boss sucks or 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.600 how they're unionizing, or how capitalism isn't cool, and like 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.320 that could start an entire lifetime of political inquiry. Like, 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:30.320 there's just so much more that's more accessible for everyone, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.280 not just people that go to college, not just people 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.040 who come from these various traditions. Anybody who can get 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.159 access to a phone or to a computer in the 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:41.640 library can come across these ideas and decide how they 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:43.560 feel about them, and digest them and apply them to 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.400 their own lives, you know. And I think that that's right. 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.240 And on the flip side of that, as you're talking 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:58.120 and I'm thinking about what the original nature and desire 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.399 was for social media and social mediators was for us 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.480 to be able to come together, to communicate in different ways, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.160 to globalize in a way right outside of the body 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.360 politic of what it meant to understand what was happening 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.879 in other countries that are not covered in mainstream news 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.600 is what's happening outside of your own community. Then you 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.159 mentioned something earlier too about tech oligarchs, and now I'm 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.480 starting to think about Elon Musk and the thing that 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.120 I've been saying, as people have said, you know, he's 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:31.160 such a genius, he's such this, that and the other thing, like, Oh, 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:33.520 I can't believe he's fucking up Twitter in this way. 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:35.760 And I'm just like, why do you guys think that 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.520 this is an accident? Because for all of the things 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:42.119 that you just offered about this generation, about Generation Z, 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.360 about why things have come to pass in the way 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.639 that they have over the last thirty years, it is 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.359 because of social media. It is because of the advent 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.600 of the internet. It is because of our access to information. 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.439 But when you start to commodify information, right, when you 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.760 privatize information, then what happens. What happens is what we 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:07.560 are seeing unfold with Twitter right the world Square is 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:14.040 now held up by one court gesture, right by one court, 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:16.440 you know, because I won't call him a king, right 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:21.800 by one court jesture, that then is able to destroy 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.399 it at will because he wants to, because that's going 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:28.199 to be his personal entertainment. Fuck the rest, right, And 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.679 so I wonder in the schism of that right where 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:38.440 at one time technology has allowed us to communicate, to understand, 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.119 to connect to organizing ways that we were never able 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.080 to before. Then on the other side of that is 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:48.719 the commodification of said platforms and the ability to do that, 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:52.160 And we all exist at the whim of the billionaires 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:56.680 and the venture capitalists that have created said entities. Where 0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:00.159 do you see us going, Kim? Where do you see like? 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:01.920 And I know that it's a big it's a big, 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:04.360 big question, but we're in a big, big space, like 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.720 where do you see this going? Because on one hand, 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:12.160 I'm like, are we in the Hunger Games? Is this 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.280 black mirror? Like? You know? And on and on the 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:19.200 other side, I'm just like, you know, are these tools 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:23.240 that we're using to organize they're also being used for 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:28.560 our demise, right, They're also being used to organize against workers. 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:34.080 Right to you know, to push back against this this uprising. 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.679 So where do you see you know, what do you 0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.680 see forthcoming? I'm asking you to look into the magic 0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:46.040 eight ball, you know, as we change the calendar year. Gosh. 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:49.680 I mean, honestly, I'm going to be following the sex 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.760