1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wikay f Daily with 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: I am very excited to bring to you my very 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: last interview of twenty twenty two. I've been doing a 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: lot of reflecting, as I know that many of you 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: have been, as we wind down this year, and one 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: of the areas that I have been thinking a lot 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: about has been work and labor and the way that 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: work and labor has been transformed or is in the 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: midst of a big upheaval and transformation, and it was 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: brought on in large part by the pandemic, where those 12 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: that were privileged and able to stay at home and 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: stay safe had a lot of time to be able 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: to think about the ways that we wanted to engage 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: with work for those that were laid off but then 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: were cared for by our government by giving us our 17 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: tax dollars back in terms of being able to have 18 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: breathing room as we were given the opportunity to transition 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: into something else. Then, of course, there are those the 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote essential workers that are so essential we don't 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: pay them a living fucking wage, who kept the world 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: going while the rest of us were able to take 23 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: a respite from it. I've been thinking a lot about 24 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: the ways in which our lives are controlled by capitalism, 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: are driven by other people's greed, and is about extraction 26 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: more so than it is about investment. I think about 27 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: the relationship that we have to rest and the relationship 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: that we have to work, and how there is this 29 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: sense of guilt that comes over at least I will 30 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: speak for myself, that comes over me when I am 31 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: not consistently producing, consistently creating content, consistently putting out into 32 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: the world, which means I am taking from myself in 33 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: order to give. And I think about those people who 34 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: are extracted from and are given very little in return. 35 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: And so it makes sense then that my last interview 36 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: for twenty twenty two would be with organizer and freelance 37 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: writer and author Kim Kelly. If you listen to my 38 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: other podcast, Democracy, Ish was Jahat and I had her 39 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: on several months ago to talk about her book, told 40 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: story of American labor fight Like How. And in this 41 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: conversation with Kim, you know, I get to do a 42 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: bit more of a deep dive and a bit more 43 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of what I hope to make the theme of twenty 44 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: twenty three, which is I don't want to have us 45 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: be brought down, beleaguered with the minutia of the thing. 46 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: I want us to work towards being an existing, even 47 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: for a little bit in a dreamscape. What does it 48 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: mean to think bigger and better outside of the reality 49 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: of the current moment, so that we can create the 50 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: future that is equitable, the multiracial democracy that we need, 51 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: That we should have the equitable workforce that should be 52 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: human centered and not centered on how much can be extracted. 53 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: And the value of your humanness is measured by how 54 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: much you can produce when you start to think about it, folks, 55 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: as many of you will. And again, this is for 56 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: the privileged few who are actually able to work themselves 57 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: to death to get to the end of the year, 58 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: to be able to claim that seven glorious days of 59 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: being so exhausted, so worn down that you probably don't 60 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: do all of the things that you imagine that you 61 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: would have yourself do on your winter break because you 62 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: were so exhausted depleted that you end up sleeping the 63 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: entire break. And look, I'm not saying that you should 64 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: feel bad about that. I'm saying, think about how hard 65 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: it is that we all labor in our different industry 66 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: reason spaces to just get to claim seven days of respite. 67 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: I've been saying this for the past couple of weeks 68 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: that I have been I don't know, with the three 69 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: podcasts that I now have recording at least five interviews 70 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: a day in order to be able to take one 71 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: week off right. The other shows will have outside of 72 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: woke AF, will have new content that comes out woke AF. 73 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm giving myself as well as my producer Andrew, a 74 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: break from needing to put out content every day for 75 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: a week. And you know, I have been thinking a 76 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: lot about my personal relationship to work and to worthiness, 77 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: as well as the mentality, the American mentality in our 78 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: culture of capitalism and greed that drives it and makes 79 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: us even believe that when we are when we do 80 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: have the ability and the privilege to take a respite, 81 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: to have some downtime, that it's saddled with guilt, or 82 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: that we've been working ourselves to the bone so much 83 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: that we don't even get to enjoy it fully because 84 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: we spend most of it unconscious. That shouldn't be the 85 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: way it really shouldn't be. I want to end the 86 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: year feeling refreshed and recharged, not depleted and exhausted and miserable. Frankly, 87 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: and I'm not, you know, I am admitting this as 88 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: much to myself as I am to all of you, 89 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: that my challenge and my intention for twenty twenty three 90 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: is to think about the ways in which I want 91 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: to engage with work, and the way is I want 92 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: to engage with rest, and that rest is not a 93 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: gift that I'm giving to myself. It's not something that 94 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: I am earning by virtue of Oh, Danielle, you've put 95 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: out so much content, you get to take a nap. 96 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: It's the only way that I get to continue doing 97 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: the work that I do is because I'm a human 98 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: being who requires rest and rest from guilt, and rest 99 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: from shame, and rest from oppression, and rest from racism, 100 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: and rest from all of these fucking things that pick 101 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: at us all day, every single day. So for those 102 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: of you who do and will take holiday break and 103 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: have the ability to think, I want us all you know, 104 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: as you listen to this episode and this interview with 105 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: Kim Kelly to think about your own relationship to work 106 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: your own relationship to labor and what are some of 107 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: the ways and maybe write them down. What are some 108 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: of the ways that you want to challenge yourself to 109 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: think better and be better to yourself to yourself this 110 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: coming year. What are some intentions that you want to 111 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: inseet and some boundaries you want to create so that 112 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: you can show up better for yourself daily. Coming up 113 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: next my interview with author, freelance writer and labor organizer 114 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: Kim Kelly Folks. I am very happy to welcome back 115 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: to woke f Daily Kim Kelly, author of the book 116 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: The Untold Story of American Labor Fight Like Hell. Freelance 117 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: writer and organizer Kim, You know, it has been a 118 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: really interesting year for workers in America. I think that 119 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: more people, regardless of whether it is an office job, 120 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: whether it is a delivery job, a rail job, teachers 121 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: that how we have been thinking about work, how we 122 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: have been engaging with work has changed and fundamentally changed 123 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: because of the global health pandemic that had those of 124 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 1: us who were privileged and not quote unquote essential workers 125 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: the opportunity to slow down or forcefully be fired and 126 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: laid off, but to think about how we value our humanism, right, 127 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: our ability to have rest, to have breaks with the 128 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: relentlessness of capitalism and the requirement of production, and can 129 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: constant and unrelenting production to show our value. And I 130 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: wanted to get a sense before we into kind of 131 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: the nitty greedy, just how you have been thinking about 132 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and how conversations around labor and work 133 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: have shifted differently in this year than they have in 134 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: years prior. Yeah, I mean, I think you're exactly right 135 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: by mentioning the pandemic which we're still living through those 136 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: of us who are lucky enough to survive it, right, 137 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: even though where there's this sort of perception being pushed 138 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: on us that it's it's over, it's fine, go by 139 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: Christmas presents. But like you're saying, these past god two 140 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: three years, people I guess people I guess who got 141 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: to stay inside and kind of think a little bit more, 142 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: and workers who had to go out and keep the 143 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: world running. I think there's been this this kind of 144 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: mass shifting consciousness around the value of our lives and 145 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: with that the value of our labor, and a lot 146 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: of people have been taking action and and just acting 147 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: upon those new realizations by organizing, by striking, by protesting, 148 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: by standing up against their bosses, no matter how rich 149 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: or fancy or scary they may be, and saying this 150 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: is enough. You know, you can't make the profit, you 151 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: can't enjoy the luxuries, you cannot bask in the unearned 152 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: social capital that you have without us, without our blood, 153 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: sweat and tears. And we're coinciding with this the very 154 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: least compared to the previous administration, pro labor administration, that 155 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: has opened up some wiggle room, that has empowered the NLRB, 156 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: even if it hasn't funded it properly. That is, at 157 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: the very least been making pro union statements, which I 158 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: know it's all hot air, but it helps for some 159 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: people to see, okay, like the people in charge, the president, 160 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: he cares about us. He thinks she used her a 161 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: good thing. At the very least for some people that matters, 162 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: and that's fine. And for everyone who is not necessarily 163 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: interested in that propaganda spectacle, it's opens up some wingle room. 164 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: And we've seen so much more organizing happening with younger people. 165 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: I guess, gen Z, I hate acknowledging that there's a 166 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: generation younger than me, But it happens with us all eventually, 167 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: everyone but this younger generation. And you know, we've seen 168 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: all of these, especially headlines around graduate student work and 169 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: Amazon workers and Starbucks workers, workers in retail that are 170 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: leading this kind of new organizing charge. So many of 171 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: them are young, So many of them are black and 172 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: brown specifically, so many of them are queer and trans. 173 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: The face of labor as it's understood in the sort 174 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: of mainstream level, you know, the white guy in a 175 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: hard hat. That's changing too, and that is showing that 176 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: there is so much more space for so many other 177 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: kinds of workers and kinds of identities and kinds of backgrounds. 178 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: Like that's what my whole book is about, right, And 179 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: that's what we're seeing play out. We have an entire 180 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: generation who have come of age post recession, post Bernie 181 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: the first time, post you know, the rise of these 182 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: tech oligarchs that somehow are able to control our entire lives. 183 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: This generation is not as it seems like, they're maybe 184 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: not quite as beaten down as ours was. And they're like, Okay, 185 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: we got to get out there and do some more 186 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: about this. The world's on fire. We have zero options. 187 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: Maybe we can unionize and do something about it. So 188 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: there's all these different things happening at the same time, 189 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: and we have this moment in labor where it seems 190 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: like we're actually, you know, pushing forward a little bit 191 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: instead of being stuck on our back foot like we've 192 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: happen for so long. You know, I want to talk 193 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: about Generation Z for a minute, because I think that, right, 194 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: like every every generation has its moment in the sun, 195 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: meaning that there is something or some things that occur 196 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: that are defining moments, right and for Generation Z, I 197 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: think that, you know, and again they are referred to 198 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: in allotted hood from ways and TikTok, generation Generation Z, right, 199 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: the the meme generation, all of these things. But the 200 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: reality is is that they are the first generation, as 201 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: economists have said, that will actually be doing worse than 202 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: their parents and caregivers, right, that actually will most likely 203 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: not be buying a home, not be buying a car 204 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: that don't have the ability, which personally, you know, and 205 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: this is coming from a privileged middle class space that, 206 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: like your twenties, are supposed to be about finding out 207 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: who you are and what the fuck you want to do, 208 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: as opposed to clinging on for dear life. So what 209 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: is it you know that that you see or that 210 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: you hear and you read and you write about this 211 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: generation as to what is sparking them in terms of unionizing, 212 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: in terms of pushing back that didn't happen for millennials 213 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: or jen As right, that is unique, I guess to 214 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: this generation. I think the fact that this almost this 215 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: entire generation are so digitally native, like they grew up 216 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: with the Internet and with that social media and with 217 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: that access to sharing information among their peers and taking 218 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: in new sources that aren't just MSNBC or Fox News 219 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: or where others they had. When I was a kid, 220 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: I grew up in the middle of Wes. We've barely 221 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: had the Internet like at all, and now you have 222 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: an entire world on your phone if you have one. 223 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: I think just the ease with which communication is fostered 224 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: between younger folks and information is shared and spread and 225 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: grievances are aired, and the fact that these digital spaces 226 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: are places for people to organize and come together. I 227 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: think that it's had such a big shift because I 228 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: mean for millennials, yeah, we had the Internet, we had 229 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: some technology, but it's not like what this younger generation 230 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: has and they're so fluent in that. And I think 231 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: of this organizer in Alabama saying he's twenty one, he's 232 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: part of the effort to organize an Amazon warehouse and 233 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: bestomer and I asked him about all this, so I 234 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: saw him. I saw him down there recently. It's like, look, 235 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: I grew up watching my parents struggle and work over time, 236 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: and I never saw them. And there were millennials, and 237 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: I knew that I didn't want that for myself. Like 238 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: my generation, we know that the politicians don't care about us, 239 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: they just want our votes. We know that all of 240 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: these power structures that you know we're supposed to rely 241 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: on aren't there for us. We're born into this burning planet, 242 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: like it seems like everything stacked up against us. So 243 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: why wouldn't we organize and try and fight back and 244 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: do something about it? Because we have some of these tools, 245 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: We have the energy, we have the motivation, and we 246 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: don't really have any other choice. Right It's either stand 247 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: there and let the world happen to you, or get 248 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: out there and try and make it a little bit 249 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: better at least tolerable while you're there. You know, I 250 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: think that that is so right. Just there's so much 251 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: philosophy and what you just said, either stand there and 252 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: let the world happen to you, or you know, or 253 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: do something or organize, you know, around it. And I 254 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: think that we have had such a and such a 255 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: disturbing relationship with capitalism, right, it is it is this 256 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: burden sum necessary evil. But I didn't feel that way, Kim, 257 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: when I was coming out of college, when I was 258 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: entering into into the workforce in a real way for 259 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: the first time, I felt like, and you know, maybe 260 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: it's because the the the dust of you know, the 261 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: gas lighting and the lies that have been told about 262 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: You're only as worth worthy as you are fruitful, right, 263 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: fruitful in your production. You're only as worthy as you 264 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: are fruitful. So if you have nothing, right, it is 265 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: because you have invested nothing, you have worked for nothing, right, 266 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: it is it's the way that we have built this 267 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,239 Speaker 1: belief that if you are in poverty, it's because you 268 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: just don't work hard enough. Right. And then we have 269 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: idolized and deitized these ultrawealthy, right, saying that if they 270 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: bless you, if they have so much wealth, right, if 271 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: they are multibillionaires, it's because they are geniuses. It's because 272 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: they work so hard, right, and then there's there's the 273 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: shrinking rest that fall in the middle, but are still 274 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: a paycheck away from that struggle. So what do you 275 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: think has happened over the course of I guess you know, 276 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: thirty years right in this country that has shifted the 277 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: way that we talk Because when folks used to talk 278 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: about capitalism, you were thought about on the fringe of 279 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: the fringe, right when you talked about it was kind 280 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: of this conspiracy theory of all these people are puppeteering 281 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: us in all of these things. Now it's part of 282 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: mainstream discourse. So what do you think has happened over 283 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: the last thirty years that has us in the place 284 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: that we're in right now when we discuss capitalism, worthiness, labor, 285 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: laziness versus genius. Man. So I'm thirty four, so basically 286 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: this has been my whole life just living through this shift, right. 287 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: And I remember, like you said, growing up, my parents, 288 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: like we're a blue collar construction worker family, and like 289 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: my dad loved Ronald Reagan and had terrible opinions, And 290 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: I was like, you gotta work hard because no one's 291 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: going to hand anything to you. People that people this unwellfare, 292 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: people that like the message that was drilled into my 293 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: head I was like, you have to work harder, you 294 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: ain't gonna have nothing. And I was like, okay, and 295 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: I took that to heart. So I worked hard. But 296 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: I ended up in like this this non traditional space. 297 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: Like I worked in the music business, was a roadie 298 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: in a music journalist before I started cover R Labor, 299 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: So I never really thought I would have access to 300 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: that path anyway. But that was a choice obviously, like 301 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: I was going to do something different, almost famous it, 302 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: but like and it just throughout that experience of getting 303 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: to know people in like different backgrounds and reading books 304 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: and finding marks and finding anarchists and finding all the 305 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: things that that some people are able to come across 306 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: when they go digging, Like that helps shape my political 307 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: perspective perspective in the way that I kind of moved 308 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: in the world. But but the generation who like were 309 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: coming up after me, they didn't have to, like, you know, 310 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: dig around in the university library and try and find 311 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: a copy of Capital, Like they could look to Occupy 312 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: Wall Street. They could follow Bernie Sanders or AOC on Twitter, 313 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: and of course, yeah, they're politicians. That's not necessarily like 314 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: I'm not a here, you know, I'm just saying that 315 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: is a place where some people can come across these 316 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: ideas in a way they can translate and use in 317 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: their own political development, right, Like I think these ideas 318 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: post I mean, I think we can't undersell the importance 319 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 1: of Occupy High. We can't undersell the importance of the 320 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders presidential campaign, like just in terms of shining 321 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: a light and really publicizing this idea of the one 322 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: percent of these class divisions, of this rampant inequality that's 323 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: to find our lives. I think those were big moments 324 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: for people that maybe weren't necessarily hanging out with food 325 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: not bombs, or like didn't have cool radical parents. Like 326 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: that was an entryway and you kind of can't put 327 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: that genie back in the bottle. Those conversations opened up, 328 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: and now there's been so much more development and so 329 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: many more people chiming in as so many other movements have, 330 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, have opened up that space even further, whether 331 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: it's talking about the movement for Black Lives or me Too, 332 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: or gender justice and trans rights, like there's it's all 333 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: just out there in the open now because it's been 334 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: cracked open and people have access to social media, there's 335 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: a younger generation of journalists and content creators who are 336 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: getting these messages out there and sharing these ideas. Is 337 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: like it's not and you know, podcasting happened in the 338 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: past thirty Yeah, Like there's I think there's just so 339 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: much more access to information that you could stumble upon 340 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have to know what you're looking for. 341 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: You can be sixteen and go on TikTok and see 342 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: someone doing a video about how their boss sucks or 343 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: how they're unionizing, or how capitalism isn't cool, and like 344 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: that could start an entire lifetime of political inquiry. Like, 345 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: there's just so much more that's more accessible for everyone, 346 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: not just people that go to college, not just people 347 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: who come from these various traditions. Anybody who can get 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: access to a phone or to a computer in the 349 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: library can come across these ideas and decide how they 350 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: feel about them, and digest them and apply them to 351 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: their own lives, you know. And I think that that's right. 352 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: And on the flip side of that, as you're talking 353 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about what the original nature and desire 354 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: was for social media and social mediators was for us 355 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: to be able to come together, to communicate in different ways, 356 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: to globalize in a way right outside of the body 357 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: politic of what it meant to understand what was happening 358 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: in other countries that are not covered in mainstream news 359 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: is what's happening outside of your own community. Then you 360 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: mentioned something earlier too about tech oligarchs, and now I'm 361 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: starting to think about Elon Musk and the thing that 362 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: I've been saying, as people have said, you know, he's 363 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: such a genius, he's such this, that and the other thing, like, Oh, 364 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: I can't believe he's fucking up Twitter in this way. 365 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: And I'm just like, why do you guys think that 366 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: this is an accident? Because for all of the things 367 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: that you just offered about this generation, about Generation Z, 368 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: about why things have come to pass in the way 369 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: that they have over the last thirty years, it is 370 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: because of social media. It is because of the advent 371 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: of the internet. It is because of our access to information. 372 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: But when you start to commodify information, right, when you 373 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: privatize information, then what happens. What happens is what we 374 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: are seeing unfold with Twitter right the world Square is 375 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: now held up by one court gesture, right by one court, 376 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, because I won't call him a king, right 377 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: by one court jesture, that then is able to destroy 378 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: it at will because he wants to, because that's going 379 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: to be his personal entertainment. Fuck the rest, right, And 380 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: so I wonder in the schism of that right where 381 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: at one time technology has allowed us to communicate, to understand, 382 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: to connect to organizing ways that we were never able 383 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: to before. Then on the other side of that is 384 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 1: the commodification of said platforms and the ability to do that, 385 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: And we all exist at the whim of the billionaires 386 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: and the venture capitalists that have created said entities. Where 387 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: do you see us going, Kim? Where do you see like? 388 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: And I know that it's a big it's a big, 389 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: big question, but we're in a big, big space, like 390 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: where do you see this going? Because on one hand, 391 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, are we in the Hunger Games? Is this 392 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: black mirror? Like? You know? And on and on the 393 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: other side, I'm just like, you know, are these tools 394 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: that we're using to organize they're also being used for 395 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: our demise, right, They're also being used to organize against workers. 396 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: Right to you know, to push back against this this uprising. 397 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: So where do you see you know, what do you 398 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: see forthcoming? I'm asking you to look into the magic 399 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: eight ball, you know, as we change the calendar year. Gosh. 400 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I'm going to be following the sex 401 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: workers because those folks are always the canary in the 402 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: coal mine when it comes to online repression and criminalization. 403 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: Right They've been barred from so many platforms way before 404 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: other people. Their labor is criminalized across many parts of 405 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: that industry. They're not allowed on so many social media 406 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: platforms already. They with Passage, Sesta Foster, they lost in 407 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: critical digital infrastructure that they needed to keep themselves safe 408 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: and continue their business. And I think the way that 409 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: sex workers have been treated online is something that a 410 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: lot of like sex worker thinkers that I follow, they, 411 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: I mean, they're very very vocal about this. Like what 412 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: they do to us first, they will do to you 413 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: later or soon. It's the same the thing with trans communities, 414 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: communities of color, folks that are able somehow to scrape 415 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: out bits of meeting, a connection, and even sometimes livelihood 416 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: from these digital spaces in spite of all the structural 417 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: barriers and the fact that evil, rich white dudes are 418 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: running the whole thing. Those folks are always the first 419 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: ones to get kicked off, to get silenced, to get booted. 420 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like Twitter, look at the kind of people 421 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: that Elon Musk kicks off this journalists and transactivists. It's 422 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: not Jeff Bezos, right, And just thinking about the way 423 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: that this has been happening and the way it's going 424 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: to continue happening, it scares me because, you know, it's 425 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: in a personal sense because I'm a freelancer and like 426 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: a lot of my friends live on the computer, you know, 427 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: and a lot of like I get a lot of 428 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: work that way. But that's just me. But like outside 429 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: of just my little personal fears and worries, it's like, 430 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: like you said, the idea of having this open space 431 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: for information to flow and for people to connect and 432 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: debate and find things out about places far away from 433 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: where they are, Like, that's so important, especially if you're 434 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: living somewhere where you're isolated, or you feel isolated because 435 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: of who you are, or you're made to feel that 436 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: way because of who you are. They're incredibly vital connections 437 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: made on these platforms, and I don't think they're going 438 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: to go away. I think maybe they'll start looking different, 439 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: maybe the Internet. And there's a I read a lot 440 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: called Ryan Broader who's written about this idea of the 441 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: Internet sort of pulling apart into what it used to be, 442 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: like smaller specific spaces for people. Like I said, you 443 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: see it on mastadon, when people can choose their experience 444 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: in a way even though it's already issues there or 445 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: discord communities or YouTube communities, like, I think people are 446 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: going to look at the available options and look at 447 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: what's happening to the major platforms and decide for themselves 448 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: how much they want to give and how much of 449 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: that nonsense they want to take and sort of crash 450 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: their own experiences online. And I think it would be 451 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: a real shame if we lost those big like Twitter 452 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: type platforms where you can see what everyone's up to. 453 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: But I mean the way that Twitter has been and 454 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: is has heard a lot of people too, So you know, 455 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: what's the You don't need everyone know in your business, 456 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: but sometimes you really need to share and you need 457 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: to get messages out there. So I'm not sure what 458 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: the best thing is really. I just I would encourage 459 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: people who are concerned to pay attention to down top 460 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: of it, but also talk to your neighbors and get 461 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: to know people in your community and maybe build up 462 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: some I don't want to say real world, some physical 463 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: connections too, because if Twitter goes out tomorrow, who are 464 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: you going to talk to? Hopefully you have some other 465 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: people out there. You can go organize those food out 466 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: bombs in your neighborhood, or talk to other people in 467 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: your block, or do something. Because we can't let them 468 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: dictate the way that we communicate with one another, right 469 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: if they can pull it all away to minutes, so 470 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: we have to forge things that they can't touch. Yeah, 471 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: last question for you can because I want to end. 472 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: I want to do something that I normally don't do, 473 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: which is try and end on a hopeful place. I 474 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: want to go into like a dreamscape for a minute, 475 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: around work and around labor. Because if we were to design, 476 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: if you were to design or provide what you believe 477 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: the feelings are behind a human centered work life positioning, 478 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: what does that actually look like? Right? Like? What you know? 479 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: What are some of the elements and maybe not all 480 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: of them, but some of the elements that that balanced 481 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: equitable space would provide well, if we're gonna dream a 482 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: little bit. I mean, that's why I'm an anarchist, right 483 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: like that, just that very idea of doing away with hierarchy, 484 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: doing away with top down someone's better than anybody else, 485 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: thinking and organizing society around cooperation and mutual aid and 486 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: care and compassion from one another, organizing horizontally, making sure 487 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: that everyone's voice and everyone's life matters and is valued 488 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: in their labors, appreciated. I mean, since that's the way 489 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: things are set up right now, it makes it difficult 490 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: to even dream of a world like that. But that 491 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't stop us, and it shouldn't stop us from trying. Okay, 492 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: we might not reach it to the full, you know, 493 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: anarchist future I would love to live in while I'm 494 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: still alive. But we can unionize our workplaces and talk 495 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: to our neighbors and build up mutual aid networks. We 496 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: can make changes, even if the people in charge really 497 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: don't want us to. You know, I think there is 498 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: so much potential for growth and for building and for 499 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: connection just as humans and as workers, especially as more 500 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: people are embracing this consciousness of like, you know, it's 501 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: us against them there's a lot of us and they've 502 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: been getting away with this shit for way too long. 503 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: Let's try and do something about it. Like throughout history, 504 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: throughout labor history and human history, the only reason anything 505 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: has ever changed or gotten better is because a bunch 506 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: of people, usually poor folks, usually exploit of folks that 507 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: come together and said enough. So I'm just waiting for 508 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: this current moment to continue to bear fruit. I mean, 509 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two big for labor, twenty twenty three, let's 510 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: make it big for labor. Let's see that ups strike. 511 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's kicking off with a strike across prisons 512 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania on January six, and cars raty to workers 513 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: across the straight are going to go on strike, and 514 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: that's going to be the first big one of the year. 515 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: And seeing our most vulnerable fellow workers taking that step 516 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: and publicly standing up and say we deserve better. If 517 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: someone who is forced into a cage and has no 518 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: other options is able to take that step and organize 519 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: with their fellow humans and actually do something, there's nothing 520 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: stopping any of the rest of us who aren't stuck 521 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: in that situation, you know, like there is always something 522 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: you can do and I hope people really take that 523 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: to heart and just move with it, you know, like 524 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: keep pushing forward, because we can't go any further back 525 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: than we already have. There's no other option. Absolutely and 526 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: so true. Kim Kelly, this was the most perfect last 527 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: interview for me of twenty twenty two. Um. I always 528 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: appreciate your your your voice, because it's just like it's 529 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: like I it's like talking to a poet. I feel 530 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: like when I when I when I talk to you, Um, folks, 531 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: the book is the untold story of American labor fight. 532 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: Like hell um, I encourage everyone to pick it up. Kim, 533 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for winding us down in twenty 534 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: twenty two, and I hope that we have bigger conversations 535 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: around the power of people in twenty twenty three. I 536 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Hell yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited 537 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: to save a kind of good trouble we get into 538 00:33:54,240 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: this year. Yes, that is it for me today, dear friends, 539 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: with this last interview of twenty twenty two, I wish 540 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: you all an extraordinary, RESTful, rejuvenative holiday break, and I 541 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: will see you back here in the new year. As always, 542 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: Power to the people and to all the people power, 543 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.