1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from housetop works 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and we're talking about women in retail 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: today because as we're recording this podcast, the holiday season 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: is upon us, which means 'tis the season for shop 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: until you dropping? Yeah? I can't. I'm terrified, Kristen. I 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: can't go into stores normally because it stresses me out 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: so much. Um. And by that, I just mean, like, 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: you know, the peak time of day when there's a 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: million people at the mall, I just can't do it. 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: I can go early in the morning, I can go 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: right before close, but if there's a million people, I 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: can't do it. Um. And Christmas season, holiday season, gift 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: giving season, and by that I mean obsessive shopping season. 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: It's all too much. People are all over the place, 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: they're congregating in the stores, they're not walking fast enough, 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: They're picking up the merchandise and just like throwing it 18 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: or something. I don't know what happens, but basically what 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: I'm saying is, Uh, we don't pay our retail workers 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: enough for them to deal with the horror that is 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: us as consumers during the holiday season. All right, everybody's 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: shopping for those bargains. You've got Black Friday deals. But imagine, Caroline, 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: all of the things that annoy both of us about 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: holiday shopping, the traffic, the people, the mess, the stress 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: that beatles. Christmas song playing over and over again, simply 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: having a wonderful Christmas time. It doesn't stop from Thanksgiving 27 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: to Christmas Eve. Uh. It's okay one time, um, but 28 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: imagine having to do that avery day. Um. And if 29 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: you are a part time retail worker, full time retail worker, 30 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: already things are stressful, and then the holidays just ramp 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: it up. And of course every year seasonal retail workers 32 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: are hired. On this year in the US alone, there 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: are seven hundred thousand projected seasonal workers who will be hired. Um. 34 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: Although some of that is transitioning from traditional storefront to 35 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: warehouse work because of people like me who prefer Amazon 36 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: Prime to the mall. Also supporting local independent artisans and 37 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: makers whenever I can, of course, but all of this 38 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: just exacerbates these year round issues. Rude customers who are 39 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: yelling at you as if things are your fault when 40 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: you are the floor walker. Um. Messy customers, people again 41 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: throwing merchandise. It seems like, I mean, you and I 42 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: Kristen have talked about the horror that is H and 43 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: M on like a Saturday. It gets even worse around 44 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: the holidays. UM and the awkwardness of having to push 45 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: a stores credit card on customers. You don't like it, customers, 46 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: neither does the person behind the register. And that was 47 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: something I hadn't thought about until we ended up on 48 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: a Reddit thread asking retail workers like, what don't we 49 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: know what's happening behind the scenes? And the pushing the 50 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: store credit card was something that came up a lot 51 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: because some stores allah the whole Wells Fargo fiasco of 52 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: people really pushing those credit cards, managers setting quotas that 53 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: they have to hit and really making them as uncomfortable 54 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: as we are. And and the twisted thing about that 55 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: is too. A lot of times the employees who are 56 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: being pressed to push these credit cards on us are 57 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: not making very much money to begin with, you know, um, 58 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: and retail represents such a massive sector of jobs. Oh yeah, 59 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: fifteen million people work retail jobs in the United States alone, 60 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: and more than half about fifty of them are women 61 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: and I didn't realize this, but cashiers and retail salespeople. Uh, 62 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: those are the two largest occupations in this country according 63 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Uh, and that equates 64 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: to about seven point eight million people. And those seven 65 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: point eight million people are making around twenty two thousand 66 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: a year median and one in three or part time, 67 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of those are also working nights and weekends. Um. 68 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: And you see a lot of disparities that we're going 69 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: to get into deeper into the podcast. But in terms 70 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: of transitioning from part time to full time and then 71 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: in management, it's really really tough, especially if you are 72 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: a woman, and even more especially if you are a 73 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: woman of color. So if you look at Walmart alone, 74 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: women make up about fifty of their workforce, but a 75 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: study from the think tank Demos found that only twenty 76 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: nine percent were promoted to store manager over a ten 77 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: year period. So tail is all this time. You definitely 78 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: see a disproportionate number of fellas and management supervisory and 79 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: ownership roles, and more of that of women in the 80 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: workforce who are in the lower paying cash sheer jobs 81 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: and even just the salesperson jobs. Yeah, and this kind 82 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: of reminds me of the episode we did on waitresses 83 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: women working in restaurant server positions. But by that I 84 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: mean the situation is not great in terms of working 85 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: conditions and also compensation. About one point three million women 86 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: in retail live at or near the poverty line, and 87 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: one in five are the soul breadwinners for their family. Also, 88 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: one in five women who work retail want more hours. 89 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: They want to be able to work more make more money, 90 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: but they can't get them um. For a variety of reasons, 91 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: employers might want to maintain just a part time workforce. 92 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: They don't want to pay you full time um. But 93 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: also there's the issue that of retail workers receive their 94 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: schedules a week or less in advance, which that's great 95 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: for the employer they can remit, maintain like a flexible 96 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: schedule and fit people in where they need to. Horrifying 97 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: though for the workers who are actually trying to have 98 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: a life and plan things like childcare, elder care, doctor's appointments, 99 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: their own holiday shopping, just so many other things that 100 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: can really put your life into a tail spin if 101 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: you can't even play and like a couple of days 102 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: in advance, and I would argue that in terms of 103 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: not giving people more hours, not having more full time 104 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: employees is maybe to do with not wanting to pay benefits, 105 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, because once you get to the full time 106 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: status then it costs employers more. And there's a whole 107 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: other conversation that we could have that we don't have 108 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: time to have in this podcast about changes the Obama 109 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: administration made lowering the threshold for employees to have to 110 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: be paid over time, for employees to have to start 111 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: giving paid sick leave and vacation, things that really, um, 112 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: I believe that all workers should be afforded. But when 113 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: you look too at a lot of these one in 114 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: five women who are part time and want more hours, 115 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: they're working like thirty one hours. So because when you 116 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: might hear part time and think, oh, it's what like 117 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: fifteen hours a week, twenty hours a week, No, it's 118 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: almost full time but not quite, just to keep that 119 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: overhead low. And of course, not surprisingly, there is a 120 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: wage gap issue as well. Uh, full time retail sales 121 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: women earn about sixty eight cents to every dollar a 122 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: man in the same position earns. And to put that 123 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: in perspective, that woman would need to work in extra 124 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: six months to match that man's annual income. Yeah, and 125 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: these are apples to apples jobs. People were not talking 126 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: about a cashier making sixties eight cents to a mail 127 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: manager's dollar. This is the same across the board. And 128 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: this reminds me of our conversation about the gender wage 129 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: gap in custodial work, where in these lower paying jobs 130 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: we often see that the wage gap why ends um, 131 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: which seems counterintuitive, but this is another example of that 132 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: absolutely being the case. And surprise, no surprise, retail has 133 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: never been particularly kind to women, even though we think 134 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: of it as a very feminized and woman friendly type 135 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: of job. Well, now it's very feminized. But again, to 136 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: hearken back to Kristen, would you say most of our episodes, uh, 137 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: so many of them uh teaching? Uh? What else? Librarianship? 138 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: These things all started out employing men folk, uh, and 139 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: then started employing women because they were cheaper secretarial work. Yes, 140 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: So a little tidbit that I I didn't know. Um shocking. 141 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm not fully aware of the entire history of retail establishments, 142 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: but I am now. Um, but we're gonna be so 143 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: fun at holiday parties by now, I can't wait till Yeah, 144 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna guilt everybody at Thanksgiving. The world's first 145 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: department store opened in seventeen nineties six. It was called 146 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: Harding Howl and Companies, Grand Fashionable Magazine. Uh. And that 147 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: was in London, and it had four departments. Uh. Furs 148 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: and fans really all the important food groups, right, firs 149 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: and fans. Haberdashery. I'm sorry, I literally don't know how 150 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: to say that word without saying it like that, jewelry 151 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: and clocks and millinery. Yeah, I like that they have 152 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: millinery and haberdashery separate because I guess you know, folks 153 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: were wearing so many hats even you wouldn't want men 154 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: and women in the same space. You cannot have the 155 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: mixing of hats up promiscuous group of hats. So millinery, 156 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: I would imagine, would be safe for the ladies go 157 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: in and look at all their their BIMs and bobs 158 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: and ribbons and what what's nuts and things with the others. Yes, 159 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: and for the men folk to be able to safely 160 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: go over and smoke their cigars and look at their 161 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: their fedoras. Um. And like you said, the first retail clerks, 162 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: we're guys. Uh, and these were men who operated and 163 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: often slept in their stores. These were small stores, and 164 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: really there was no major need to hire women because 165 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: fathers would essentially apprentice their sons. It was the family business. Yeah. 166 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: It kind of reminded me if anyone out there has 167 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: watched Deadwood of the hardware Store, that the two main 168 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: guys open in Deadwood because they they basically sleep there. 169 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: They run this hardware store and they live there. It's 170 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: their whole life. Their whole existence is around this hardware store, 171 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: minus some drama with some prostitutes. Now, Caroline, this reminds 172 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: me also of the wild West, the Frontier, no prostitutes. 173 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: Though this makes me think of Nelly Olsen in Little 174 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: House in the Prairie because her family, if y'all remember, 175 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: they owned Olsen's Mercantile, which was the general store, and 176 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: she was such a snob and so mean because she 177 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: had access to all the penny candies and the ribbons. 178 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: And I want to say that they also slept above 179 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: the general store, which I just thought was really cool. 180 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: But this was also in the phase where my dream 181 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: car was a camper, so go figure. Um. But Nellie 182 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: would not have been the person to have run the store. 183 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: Her dad would have passed it down to her brother. 184 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: And you want to know what changed everything, The same 185 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: thing that changed everything for white women in employment outside 186 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: the home and outside the domestic service in the United States, 187 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: the Civil War. Really, wars always get women out of 188 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: the house and into new jobs, and retail is one 189 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: of those. Yeah, there was a man drain, and I 190 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: just picture men getting stuck in a drain, the old 191 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: man drain. It happens. There's the World War One man drain, 192 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: the World War two man drain. But really, without man drains, 193 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: would we have women's gains as a rhyme? Oh, put 194 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: that on a poster And was it not though considered 195 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: sort of dirty and scandalous for women to be behind 196 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: the counter working with money and making these transactions. Yeah, 197 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: I mean this was This was one of the first 198 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: times that female labor was really put on public display. 199 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: So she would have been coming into contact with not 200 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: only other women, but also with other men. And so 201 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: if we hop back to London, where a lot of 202 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: stuff is going on. Initially, you have this rising middle 203 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: class in the Victorian era, and apartment stores are popping 204 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: up and it's deemed inappropriate for for women to be clerks. 205 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Snobs called them counterhoppers, but there were some more progressive 206 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: women who were like, uh, ladies need employment. Working class 207 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: women need to be able to make a wage. And 208 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty nine there was this group of women 209 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: in London's West Side called the Ladies of Langham Place 210 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: who got together at a coffee house, which, first of all, 211 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: if y'all have listened to our episode on gender Coffee 212 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: and Barisa's, you know that that's a daring move to 213 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: begin with, because coffee houses were for fellas. But these 214 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: ladies were like, no, y'all, we're going to meet here too, 215 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: and they got together to figure out how to improve 216 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: employment options for women, and they really inspired what's considered 217 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: the shopgirl revolution. Yeah, and you have one of these 218 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: Ladies of Langham Place, Jesse Boucherette, who called for schools 219 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: to be founded to train girls to become shop assistant. 220 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: She said, why should bearded men be employed to sell 221 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: ribbon lace and handkerchiefs, which to me just echoes our 222 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: advertising Women in Advertising episode where women are arguing we 223 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: need more women in advertising because women can speak to 224 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: other women, they know what women want. So therefore we 225 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: need to get women in here, and then there ended 226 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: up being this like pink ghettoization of the products that 227 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: women were hawking. And to me, this kind of reads 228 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: like this as well, because it's sort of a preview 229 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: of actually getting more women into these sales lady or 230 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: shop girl roles. Yeah, and we learned a lot of 231 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: this info about the shop girl revolution in London from 232 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: this fantastic multipart BBC series that's also starts out recounting 233 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: diary entries from well healed women who could afford to 234 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: go to stores and go buy their ribbon lace and 235 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: handkerchiefs from the bearded men, and how dismissed they often 236 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: were by the mail clerks and what a drag it 237 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: often was, and shopping was really not an enjoyable process 238 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: of all these somber men working as clerks, right, And 239 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: that was another argument to get women working as clerks, 240 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: because you know, ladies like ladies, right, Ladies can probably 241 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: sell better too, Ladies. Are we not kind of touching 242 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: on emotional labor here? Sure? Codyling being kind when you 243 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: don't care. There is so much emotional labor that goes 244 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: into retail work, and it's expected. If you aren't putting 245 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: forth the emotional labor effort, you're considered rude or a 246 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: bad employee. Well, because well before the ladies of langm 247 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: Place got together at ye oldie Starbucks, the guy that 248 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: the department store magnate and his name is a escaping 249 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: me right now, um had already come up with the 250 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: philosophy of the customer always being right. So that was 251 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: already ingrained. And that also establishes this class system that 252 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: you have behind the counter and in front of it. 253 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: And because of that class and the fact that these 254 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: women needed those jobs, yes, from eighteen fifty we do 255 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: see women making the first inroads into retail, although some 256 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: stores hired more than others. But what was driving a 257 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: lot of that for the male shop owners who were 258 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: hiring them was that there was a large supply of them, 259 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: and they came cheap, like those penny candies. They came 260 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: as cheap as a penny candy. But it's the same 261 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: kind of thing that we do see with the shift 262 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: to secretarial work, where it's like, well, you know, the 263 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: women are cheaper. Same thing with librarianship, Well the women 264 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: are cheaper. And here we're still talking about white women though. True, true, 265 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: And so if you look at ninety about one in 266 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: fifty sales people were women by though that was one 267 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: in sixteen. Um. But things were not rosy. It wasn't 268 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: like there was some like lady Utopia behind the counter 269 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: in these in these shops, I know, if only it 270 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: were all just fun makeover montages. Everybody dabbing each other's 271 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: faces with this huge, comically large like powder poopy, you know, 272 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: trying on different coursets and fainting into each other's arms. Um. 273 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: And for listeners who have have or are are right 274 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: now working in retail, hell, can you imagine not only 275 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: having that job but also having that job responsible for 276 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: your housing? So and this makes me think of one 277 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: of my best friends who for a very long time 278 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: worked at American Apparel, And yeah, she's got some stories 279 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: to tell. Um. And if if she also had to 280 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: work at American Apparel and then turn around and go 281 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: home to the American Apparel dormitories where I mean doub 282 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: cherry would probably be laying in wait. Uh, but that's 283 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: kind of the situation. So especially for a lot of 284 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: these stores um in Britain that we're popping up at 285 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: the time, and these shop girls who were moving into 286 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: the big city. They required women to quote unquote live 287 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: in or live in accommodations designated by the employer, which 288 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: is exactly what we were talking about a little while 289 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: ago on our episode about women flight attendants. The first 290 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: female flight attendants had to live in stewardess dormitories. And 291 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: that major league paternalistic move was also really money grubbing 292 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: on the part of the shop owners. Oh yeah, because 293 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: while they did require the women to live in these dorms, 294 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: they also required them to pay rent, but the rent 295 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: was just taken out of their paycheck, which is that 296 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: is a dirty move. Yeah, so you're already hiring cheaper 297 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: labor than men. And we should also mention that another 298 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: motivation for keeping these women sequestered in these highly regulated 299 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: dorms was to manage morality. Yeah. But the thing is, 300 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: when you have these workers who are making such paltry 301 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: sums of money, it drove many of them too in 302 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: order to survive into sex work, and so you start 303 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: to see this association. It was already such a scandalous 304 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: thing to have women needing to work work outside home, 305 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: and no less, in a job that required them to 306 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: interact with all sorts of people. Um. But that's when 307 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: you really see these strong association between the scandal of 308 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: having women work as uh, shop ladies or shop girls 309 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: and assuming that they're all sex workers or prostitutes. Well, 310 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: because a lot of them had to turn to sex 311 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: work to actually make ends meet they didn't make enough money. 312 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: I mean, this was a very real fact of shop 313 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: work at this time. And in that BBC series which 314 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: will link to in the source posts for this episode 315 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: on stuff Mom Never Told You dot com because it's 316 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: on YouTube and you should check it out. It's fascinating. Uh. 317 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: The host goes into one of these very old shops 318 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: and goes upstairs where the shop girls would possibly meet 319 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: customers to make some extra cash selling their bodies. Um. 320 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: And if we hop back to the US, the thing 321 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: is as deplorable as these situations kind of work. And 322 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how often women in retail at this 323 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: time in the US we're also turning to sex work. 324 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that that none of them we're doing it, 325 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: but it's still these jobs still tended to pay more 326 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: than domestic labor and manufacturing work, which if you are 327 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: a working class woman, those are really the only options 328 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: employment options that you've got, so kind of like secretarial work. 329 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: While they were being undervalued and underpaid and in some 330 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: case outright abuse. It's like, well, but at least it's 331 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: not at least we're not in a factory. At least 332 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: we're not in a factory. But that doesn't mean the 333 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: work was not punishing. You worked incredibly long hours, think 334 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: six am to nine pm. You'd be stocking things, tidying 335 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: up and cleaning, having to deal with the emotional labor 336 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: aspect of customer service. And you better not sit down. 337 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no sitting allowed. I mean the conditions were 338 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: so physically punishing that they prompted Nellie Bligh style exposes 339 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: on the harsh working conditions. For instance, there was one 340 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: published called Death and Disease behind the Counter. The physical 341 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: ailments that women in retail often developed became nicknamed the 342 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: standing evil because they tended to develop anemia and consumption. 343 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: There was even this thing called the bustle stick, which 344 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: was invented at one point that would allow women to 345 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: just sort of lean back and and perch on it. 346 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: So they're not sitting necessarily, but they're not quite standing. 347 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: They can take a break for a second. But unfortunately 348 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: the bustle stick never caught on. Yeah, I think you 349 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: can get something like that now for camping. So when 350 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: you're on the trail hiking up a mountain, you know, 351 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: you don't have to necessarily lie down or sit down. 352 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: You can sort of just lean and perch. I am 353 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: heading straight to Ori e I and asking you have 354 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: a bustle Who are the bustle sticks women? Um? Well, yeah, 355 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: I mean it was considered in poor taste to be 356 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: sitting down. And that wasn't just a directive coming from 357 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: the higher ups in the department store. Customers would complain. Uh, 358 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: they thought it was like a sign of laziness and 359 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: disrespect if they saw any of these shop girls sitting down. 360 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's heaped in, steeped in classism. Uh. 361 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: And Macy's probably a familiar name to a lot of listeners. 362 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: Nineteenth century Macy's was real intense. Although on the one hand, 363 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: they did promote a lot of the first female supervisors 364 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: Lady Go Macie's. But Macy's also did not allow sitting 365 00:24:53,560 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: and considered what they called unnecessary conversations grounds for firing. Yeah, 366 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean, like the animal a short leash. Don't be 367 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: too chatty, as one boss told me when I was 368 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: right out of college. Um, and it is funny, you know. 369 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: We in our waitressing episode, we kicked it off by 370 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: asking women who are in the service industry, do you 371 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: prefer to be called waiters, waitresses, servers, what? Because what 372 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: you call yourself and what other people call you it 373 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: does matter. Um And American stores did originally adopt the 374 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: British term shop girls, but the serious employees preferred sales ladies. Right. 375 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: They didn't even want to be called saleswomen. They want 376 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: to be called sales ladies because again, class a lady 377 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: is someone who I mean that denotes a higher class. Yeah, 378 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: but reading this, I was like, oh, I call them 379 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: sales ladies, not ironically or or anything. I just called. 380 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: I refer to them as sales ladies. Well, ye, oldise 381 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: sales ladies will be happy to hear them. But you 382 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: know I don't call like, if I see a woman 383 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: who's about my age, like working at best buy or 384 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: or or a J Crew or something, I don't think 385 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: of her as a sales lady. I tend to think 386 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of sales ladies as as the women who were in 387 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: their fifties, sixties, seventies. Maybe they're at Talbot, the ones 388 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: who do bra measurements. Yeah, sales ladies, Yeah, exactly. My 389 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: mother was a sales lady. She worked at Coldwater Creek 390 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: part time to supplement her flight attendant income slash have 391 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: something to do on her off time, and uh, I 392 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: think she would qualify as a sales lady. She's also 393 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: the reason that I make sure to always remove my 394 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: clothes from the dressing room when I am done trying 395 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: them on, because if you want to hear a bunch 396 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: of women complain about you be the person who leaves 397 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: your clothes in the dressing room, you will be disliked intensely. Well. 398 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: And speaking of what retail sales people prefer to be called, 399 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: let's not forget that they also have names, as we 400 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: all do. That was something on the Reddit thread where 401 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: especially if someone is wearing a name tag, uh, they're like, 402 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: I'm wearing a name tag for a reason. You can 403 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: you can call me by my name, and we really 404 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: appreciate it if you, Yeah, if you remember our names. 405 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: And I have a horrible short term memory, and often 406 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 1: in stores like a maid Well where I go too often, 407 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: only when the sale is on sale, but still it's 408 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: too often. Um, and you know, whenever you go to 409 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: try something on the person says, oh, okay, I'm Blenda, 410 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: I immediately forget Belenda's name. I know, and immediately, but 411 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: after this episode, I'm going to remember Belenda. You're just 412 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: everyone's gonna become Blenda now. But in retail workers listening, 413 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: let me know, am I just like overblowing this because 414 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: it's got to feel nice and humanizing for people to 415 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: remember your name when you tell it to them. So 416 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: just another thing that we can do in addition to 417 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: keeping our dressing rooms tidy when we're leaving. But back 418 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: to our history. Women at this time, even though they 419 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: might have been sales ladies, they might have been a 420 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: bit more ambitious and cared about their job and had 421 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: every intention of working in it for as long as 422 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 1: they could. They were often considered by employers and kind 423 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: of just across the industry to be dead end workers 424 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: because men were always hired as clerks with the implicit 425 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: understanding that they were working their way up a ladder 426 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: and sort of an unofficial apprenticeship, but women were just 427 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: seen as almost like seasonal workers. Today the way that 428 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: we use them during the holidays, like, well, it just 429 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of churned through them. Um. No one, No one 430 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: considered an employment ladder for women at the time. I 431 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: think the one exception that we could cite, or one 432 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: of the exceptions that we could site, would be buyers. 433 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: A lot of women did start out as shop girls, 434 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: and we're able to work. When I say a lot, 435 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: I don't actually literally mean a lot. I mean some 436 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: worked their way up to being buyers where they would 437 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: deal with the manufacturers and the designers to get new 438 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: styles in. And a lot of that goes back to 439 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: to the attitude that we cited earlier of like don't 440 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: women know women better? Um? And so rather than having uh, 441 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: these fuddy duddy men who just take what the manufacturers make, 442 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: why don't we get women in here who know how 443 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: women want to address themselves and have them uh set 444 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: the tone for what the fashions will be in the stores. 445 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: And so, uh you started to see schools actually having 446 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: programs for fashion buying, and of course that was that 447 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: was an arc that wasn't all at once. It's not 448 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: like they hired a bunch of women and were like 449 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: and now we're going to to kate you at college 450 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: for this exact thing, right, because more often than not, 451 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: even if a gal worked to swell sixteen hour day, 452 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: she would likelier be fired than rewarded for fear of 453 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: her eventually demanding a higher salary. Women were expendable. There 454 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: are plenty of them. They're cheap. Just bring them in 455 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: and toss them out. So we should remake the expendables, uh, 456 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: and have it just be shop girls nine century British 457 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: shop girls. I'd watch it as long as Sylvester Stallone 458 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: is not in it. Um. But here, here's a thing 459 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: that is absent one from our conversation so far, women 460 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: of color. That's because the history of black sales ladies 461 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: was largely non existent pre civil rights. And we're going 462 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: to talk about that when we come right back from 463 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: a quick break. So we mentioned the Civil War man 464 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: drain earlier. You know, men getting caught in the drain, 465 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: like so much hair that you've got to remove. Oh 466 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: no wait, sorry, they're going off to war and women 467 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: are filling their places. Same thing happened with World War One. 468 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: So women are becoming more visible as shop girls as 469 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: retail workers around this time. But that's still mainly applied 470 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: to white women. Black women who were hired by these 471 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: retails stores still were relegated to jobs that revolved around 472 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: the kitchen, the bathroom, service areas until about the nineteen sixties. Yeah, 473 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't mainly white women. It was exclusively 474 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: white women. And we learned about this in a book 475 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: by Jan Whittaker called Service and Style, How the American 476 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: Department Store, Fat Suh and the middle Class, And she 477 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: wrote about how before the nineteen sixties, the most visible 478 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: job for an African American woman would have been as 479 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: an elevator operator, until you have department store, some department 480 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: stores swapping them out for sexier white women. So even 481 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: elevator operator is too visible. And you do see organizing 482 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: and protesting around this time, especially in the nineteen thirties 483 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: in black neighborhoods. The n a c P, for instance, 484 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: initiated a don't buy where you can't work protest that 485 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: we're focused on black neighborhoods where you have stores owned 486 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: by white people that wouldn't hire Black people. And so 487 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, these customers were saying, no, this is not right. 488 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: You're you're going to take our money, but you won't 489 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: hire us. No, and women were very instrumental in organizing 490 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: these protests. Now, unfortunately, partly because they were so concentrated 491 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: in predominantly black areas of town, they were largely ineffective 492 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: in initially instigating industry wide change. World War two, however, 493 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: did afford some black people more sales floor jobs, but 494 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: as long as their skin was light enough. This goes 495 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: back to the paper bag test. Yeah, you had to 496 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: pass the paper bag test and have light enough skin 497 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: that it wouldn't potentially make white customers uncomfortable. Um. And 498 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: there were arguments though, around and after World War Two, that, well, 499 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: why would white people be uncomfortable with black people in 500 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: retail jobs? White people are already accustomed to black people 501 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: serving them and cleaning up after them in their homes. 502 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: We why wouldn't we hire them as as retail workers. 503 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: But to put some numbers around that benevolent racism, shall 504 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: we call it? A nine New York retail customer survey 505 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: found that most white people were fine with black salespeople 506 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: if they had like enough skin, but of them did 507 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: not want them touching clothing, lingerie, or food. So no, 508 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: we're actually not We're not fine with that UM and 509 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: the year before New York City report identified one black 510 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: saleswoman among all the stores on Fifth Avenue. Yeah, and 511 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: during this time in the forties, most of those retail 512 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: job gains for black people were again in stock rooms. 513 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: As long as they weren't visible, then okay, maybe we 514 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: will hire you. UM. Store owners were genuine We worried 515 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: that having black employees be visible would mean it would 516 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: scare off white customers, right, because more black employees meant 517 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: that it would be a safer space for black customers 518 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: to come in UM, and that would trigger all of 519 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: white customers racism, so they would go to Gimbals instead 520 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: of Macy's UM. And this also brings up another conversation 521 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: that we could have about the horrendous mistreatment of black 522 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: customers and retail UM who would go into wide establishments 523 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: and be treated like second class citizens. But well, I 524 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: mean that, how is that different from now with black 525 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: customers being followed around stores? Very true? So you you 526 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: know you have black customers going to patronizing uh, black 527 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: owned businesses because literally those were the only safe spaces 528 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: for them to shop. Now, once we get to the 529 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties and early sixties with the civil rights movement, 530 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: we do see protests ramping up against racist hiring practices, 531 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: targeting the largest department stores. UM. And and you do 532 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: start to see the dial moving a little bit. In 533 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eight of the New York State Commission against Discrimination 534 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: kind of patted itself on the back because it tallied 535 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: up a grand total of one hundred black retail sales 536 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: people and two in retail management in the city. UM. Now, 537 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: I don't have the number of one hundred and two 538 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: out of how many. I mean, it still has to 539 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: be a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. And so you know, 540 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: a lot of these protests and boycotts that are happening, 541 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: UM did open up some jobs. They did have an effect, 542 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: but a a lot of the jobs that were opened up, 543 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: we're in more failing stores, stores that weren't seeing as 544 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: much customer traffic anyway, UM or they were not getting hired. 545 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: Uh to work with high priced home furnishings and fashion, 546 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: which also was a struggle for women in general. Earlier 547 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: in our history when women struggled to get jobs with furniture, 548 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: it was it was considered so dirty and inappropriate for 549 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: women to work with furniture. It's big and heavy and dusty, 550 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: and the same ended up applying to black people in general. 551 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: But certainly not for a paternalistic reason. No, because these 552 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: are high ticket items that we want to move to 553 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: our wealthier customers, and wealthier customers certainly can't be waited 554 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: on by our black salespeople. Um. But in the background, too, 555 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: we have to acknowledge the crucial importance of lunch counter 556 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: desegregation that was going on because a lot of these 557 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: were in department store wars. So you have this combination 558 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: of civil rights protests and pocketbook boycott's and lunch counter desegregation, um. 559 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: That is opening the space up slowly but surely. And 560 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: no surprise, White owned stores in the South were the 561 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: most resistant because desegregation. So, for instance, I don't have 562 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: the exact year, but it wasn't until well into the 563 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties that a woman named Dorothea Davis became Charlotte, 564 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: North Carolina, a relatively large city, Charlotte's first first black 565 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: saleswoman in a not black owned store. Yeah, and I 566 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: mean the retail industry still has not done right by 567 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: most of its black and Latina and Latino workers in particular, 568 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: and We're going to talk about that when we come 569 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. So, with everything we've 570 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: talked about at this point in terms of the racism 571 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: that's been deeply embedded in retail from the get go, 572 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 1: it's shouldn't be much of a surprise that it isn't 573 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: really an equitable haven for people of color today, because, 574 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: like you mentioned, if you're simply a customer, you have 575 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: to deal with racism so often in the form of 576 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: racial profiling that we have. We can we can't not 577 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: have a conversation on race and retail without talking about 578 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: customer profiling. Oh yeah, and some of our biggest stores 579 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: have been implicated in cases of racial profiling. Macy's, Sophora, Zara, Barney's, CVS, 580 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: Best Buy, Ross, Walgreen's, Hollister, Um, all of these stores 581 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: have gotten in trouble for if is a racial profiling 582 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: and not to mention two issues of black people being 583 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: killed outright. Um. A lot of this was highlighted in 584 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: a piece in the International Business Times by Catherine Dunn, 585 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: who reported that between and two thousand two, at least 586 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: six shoppers died, five of them people of color, and 587 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: confrontations with off duty police officers employed as security guards 588 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: at Dillard's department stores in three states. At Dillard's alone, 589 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: just at Dillard's. Well, things are a great at Walmart either. 590 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: In ten John Crawford the third was shot at an 591 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: Ohio Walmart by security guards just because he picked up 592 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: a BB gun. Yeah, I mean, well he was killed. 593 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: He was shot and killed because he just, yeah, he 594 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: just picked up a gun and the security guard assumed 595 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: that he was armed and dangerous. Meanwhile, we had this 596 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: stories a couple of years ago of all of those 597 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: white militants walking into Walmart's wearing guns and and they 598 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: weren't killed. Well, it's because America doesn't hate white people. 599 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: And these are just a handful of the instances of 600 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: not just discrimination but outright violence that people of color, 601 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 1: Black people in particular, often face as customers in retail stores. 602 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: And Gallop Pole found that of black respondents felt they've 603 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: been treated unfairly in stores because of their skin color. 604 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: And honestly, that sounds low to me. And it doesn't 605 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: get much better in terms of discrimination when we hop 606 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: behind the counter. Because we've already talked about the gendered 607 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: siloing of low income jobs in retail. Well, once you 608 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,240 Speaker 1: toss race and ethnicity into the mix, it gets even worse, 609 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: as often does hashtag intersectionality. Yeah, retail is the second 610 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: largest source of jobs for Black Americans, and it's one 611 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: of the largest sources of new employment across the United States. 612 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: But not all retail jobs are created equally, as should 613 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: be no surprise. UM. I mean, you've got a ton 614 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: of mainstream major stores who faced lawsuits for discriminatory hiring practices. Um. 615 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: What was the story a couple of years ago about 616 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: Abercrombie and Fitch being sued over a woman wearing a 617 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: Hidge job. Right, So it ended up going to the 618 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: Supreme Court and they ruled in favor of the former 619 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: Abercrombie employee, UM, who was fired because they refused to 620 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: allow her to wear her he job on the store floor. UM. 621 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,240 Speaker 1: And like I said, the Supreme Court ruled in her favor. 622 00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: Abercrombie has long had a reputation though for uh presenting 623 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: a very white, very exclusionary image, UM, with its advertising, 624 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: with its hiring. UM. There was one time in New York, 625 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of New Yorker is listening. 626 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: I've also seen this where they've got the sales gimmicks 627 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: with the white chiseled guys in and next to nothing 628 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: standing outside and just all of that just body spray, 629 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: just coming at you so much, so much, body spray 630 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: a headache just walking past an Abercromby. But I'm even 631 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: surprised at aberca Imus. Honestly, side now, I'm surprised at 632 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 1: Abercrombie even still exists. But in same with wet Seal, 633 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,959 Speaker 1: they've also been nailed for discriminatory hiring practices. I can't 634 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: believe that store still exists and target place where a 635 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: lot of us love to shop in the name of 636 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: self care. Um and Okay, So if we talk again, 637 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: if we zero in on these Black Americans working in retail, 638 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: they are likelier to be among the working poor. Uh So, 639 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: like the overall retail workforce, a majority of black and 640 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,320 Speaker 1: Latino retail workers do have some education post high school 641 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: and about a third or parents. But seventeen percent of 642 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: black retail workers and percent of Latino or Latina retail 643 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: workers live below the poverty line, compared to just nine 644 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: percent of the overall workforce, and they have fewer opportunities 645 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: for advancement. They're overrepresented as cashiers which tends to be 646 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: the lowest paid retail work and underrepresented in managerial positions. 647 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,479 Speaker 1: And we talked about a gender wage gap, there's also 648 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: a racial wage gap. And again this is coming from 649 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: research conducted jointly by Demos and the Double A CP 650 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: finding that black and Latin X full time cashiers are 651 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: nine percent of what white cashiers do, which translates to 652 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,920 Speaker 1: about a loss of eight dollars now full time sales people. 653 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: Though it gets even worse. That gap is twenty White 654 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:18,439 Speaker 1: people make tent more than sales people of color, which 655 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: translates to an income difference of seventy five hundred dollars 656 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: a year. And consider this, the retail salesperson is the 657 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: industry occupation with the highest share of workers but the 658 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: widest wage divide, and the cashier wage gap, meanwhile, is 659 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: narrower because the income is just so low to begin with. 660 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: And so I think all I could keep thinking when 661 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: I was reading these statistics and how massive and sprawling 662 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: the retail workforce is. All I could think was, huh, 663 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: our politicians on the left of the right, whoever talk 664 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: about protecting Americans work for Americans, wanting to help families, 665 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: and oh you know this country just steps on the 666 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: working poor. Well, a lot of those people are in 667 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: retail in some way or another. And if we aren't 668 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: doing more to protect these people, bolster these people, UM, 669 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: make sure that they are making a living wage. That's 670 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: a good percentage of Americans that are being stepped on. 671 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. And it's not just the low wage issue. 672 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: It's also the instability of that part time work that 673 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: we talked about, and also this thing called just in 674 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: time scheduling. So in terms of the part time work, again, 675 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,720 Speaker 1: black and Latino X retail employees are likelier than white 676 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 1: people to be part time workers, working thirty one hours 677 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: a week on average, even when they would rather be 678 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: full time. And then heap on top of that, you 679 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: know that that lack of benefits that you would get 680 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,919 Speaker 1: as a full time worker, then you have to deal 681 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: with the rampant use slash abuse of justin time scheduling, 682 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: which is the worst and happens most often again to 683 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: black and Latin X workers. So just in time scheduling 684 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: UH is basically the nickname for employers giving very little 685 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: advanced notice of your schedule UM as little as a 686 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: week in advance. And on top of that, you're also 687 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: subject to shifts being canceled or getting sent home if 688 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: it's a slow day. So if you're managing things like 689 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: transportation cost, being the breadwinner, the soul earner in your household, 690 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,479 Speaker 1: as a lot of these people are childcare elder care, 691 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: all of this is thrown into complete chaos because there 692 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,240 Speaker 1: is nothing stable about these jobs. And it also prevents 693 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: you from probably being able to go out and reliably 694 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: search for better work because you don't know when you're 695 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: gonna be working at the job you have right now. 696 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,879 Speaker 1: So what do we do. Well, for one, we could 697 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: raise the federal minimum wage. Right people are on board 698 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: for that, probably not President elect Trump. Actually, by probably, 699 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: I mean he's talked openly about how he thinks the 700 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: minimum wage, which is seven dollars and twenty five cents 701 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: an hour, folks, that is not a living wage, especially 702 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,439 Speaker 1: if you live anywhere close to a metropolitan area. Uh. 703 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: He thinks that that is too high already. So with 704 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 1: the Republicans now in control of the House and Senate, Uh, 705 00:48:54,239 --> 00:49:00,719 Speaker 1: that's not likely to happen in the next four years. Okay, Well, um, 706 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: maybe big retailers can hop on paying their workers a 707 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: living wage. Yes, they could do that. They absolutely could 708 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: do that. You know, if you are a CEO of 709 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: Target making bazillion million dollars a year, you could reallocate 710 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: some of that money to pay your workers a living wage. 711 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: And listeners, if you are curious about what exactly is 712 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: the living wage for you where you live in work 713 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: uh m, I T has a hand calculator that we 714 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: will link to in this source post. And for us Caroline, 715 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,200 Speaker 1: it's eleven dollars and thirty six cents, far cry from 716 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,400 Speaker 1: seven dollars and cents. Yeah, And of course what you 717 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:47,160 Speaker 1: often hear from people, um, this has happened to me 718 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter, It's happened to me, uh, from people in 719 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: my own family. When you discuss things like the minimum wages, Well, 720 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: how are we going to pay for it? Are you 721 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: going to pay for it? Right? Prices will go up, right, 722 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: so we'll we will actually to be the ones paying 723 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,959 Speaker 1: for these, you know, these exorbitant salaries that are essentially subsistence, 724 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: which again I would say ties back into an earlier 725 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: episode we did on the welfare queen stereotype. People are 726 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: so scared about what the working poor are going to 727 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: do with more money, Well, they presume that they are 728 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: lazy and undeserving. You know, we worked hard for our money. Yeah. Well, uh, 729 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,360 Speaker 1: this Berkeley study crunched the numbers and found that if Walmart, 730 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: for instance, which again has a massive workforce all on 731 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,880 Speaker 1: its own, paid twelve dollars an hour as a starting wage, 732 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 1: shoppers would see a price increase of one point one percent, 733 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: or forty six cents per shopping trip. Oh wow, So 734 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:51,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, caroline cents that could buy you, 735 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: uh like two and a half chicken nuggets McDonald's. Um, 736 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if we can be that generous. Another thing, though, 737 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: that DEMOS and the c P recommend, especially for uh 738 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:13,280 Speaker 1: ending that siloing of people of color and also women 739 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,799 Speaker 1: in general in those lower paying jobs, is ending employment 740 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: credit checks, because credit checks are mostly used for things 741 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,360 Speaker 1: like loans and housing. Uh. And when you start enforcing 742 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:32,439 Speaker 1: employment credit checks on a lot of your employees who 743 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: are already the working poor, it is just automatically disqualifying 744 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: so many of them for circumstances that they themselves cannot help. 745 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: And another thing that employers could and come on should 746 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: do is to ensure more stable hours and predictable schedules. 747 00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: I mean, letting people know what they're going to be 748 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: working two weeks out at least is that much of 749 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,280 Speaker 1: a hardship? I mean, especially for part time workers. Uh, 750 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,400 Speaker 1: Ending that whole just in time scheduling process or system 751 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: could go a long way to enabling people to not 752 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,240 Speaker 1: only take care of their personal life stuff, but enable 753 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: them to miss less work rights. It seems that way, absolutely, 754 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: And I do want to hear from retail managers listening 755 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: who are in charge of scheduling, because I'm sure that 756 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,800 Speaker 1: where we're sitting this, the ending just in time scheduling 757 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 1: seems like a simple fix. But I'm curious to know 758 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 1: in reality why it is such a juggling act. What 759 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:52,759 Speaker 1: kind of factors perhaps force your hand at being so 760 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: late to give your employees notice, Because I mean, I 761 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,040 Speaker 1: know from friends who've worked in retail like they dealt 762 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: with a similar kind of thing. And um, I wonder 763 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,480 Speaker 1: if it has to do with target sales being reached 764 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,480 Speaker 1: or not being reached, um, mandates from the powers that 765 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,439 Speaker 1: be in your retail brand. Um, So if folks can't 766 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,839 Speaker 1: help phillison on that, that would be super helpful, because yeah, 767 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it just it does seem unnecessarily cruel, and 768 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: yet it's so common. UM. And while the federal initiatives 769 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,880 Speaker 1: that could potentially happen uh seem really sad to think 770 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:39,400 Speaker 1: about at the moment because of the recent election and 771 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 1: how sort of anti working poor. UM. I would argue, 772 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the politicians now in power seemed to be. 773 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:57,719 Speaker 1: We do have bright spots, wonderful champions like Senator Elizabeth 774 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:02,920 Speaker 1: Warren who has sponsored the Schedules that Work Act. She 775 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,240 Speaker 1: has introduced it. There are a number of co sponsors 776 00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 1: on it as well. UM, But it has yet to 777 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,480 Speaker 1: be passed. And I have a feeling that in a 778 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 1: quote unquote pro business, pro jobs, Republican administration, UM, it's 779 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 1: unlikely to get signed. But we have to remember that 780 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 1: our state legislatures can make a difference as well. Dial 781 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,480 Speaker 1: up your local reps, dial up your congressional representatives, tell 782 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: them that you want to see the Schedules that Work 783 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 1: Act get past. If not in the US Congress, then 784 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 1: in the state congress. UM. The the other part of 785 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:48,120 Speaker 1: this and the reason why it is, I believe, especially 786 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,560 Speaker 1: now in these times, part of our civic obligation to 787 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: do as much as we can to reach out and 788 00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: advocate on behalf of disenfranchised groups is that are retail 789 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: workers in particular. They're often so powerless because they're they're 790 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 1: not unionized. And when I mean, I know that unions 791 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,200 Speaker 1: are there's a lot of politics that goes on in 792 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: that a lot of it is a very polarized thing. 793 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,319 Speaker 1: But when workers aren't organized and they're already marginalized, it 794 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,200 Speaker 1: is hard for them to collectively advocate for themselves. Well sure, 795 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,120 Speaker 1: and I mean, um, you know, maybe some folks want 796 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,879 Speaker 1: to march to their state capital or something like that. 797 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,480 Speaker 1: But again, it goes back to the scheduling issue, like 798 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,239 Speaker 1: how much free time do you have if you're also 799 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: your main breadwinner and your main source of childcare and 800 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: you know you're working crazy hours that you're not sure 801 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,719 Speaker 1: when you're going to be scheduled. It kind of makes 802 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 1: it hard to even get together with like minded individuals, 803 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,320 Speaker 1: not even I mean like unions aside, or or activism aside. 804 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,600 Speaker 1: It makes it hard to even have time to talk 805 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: to other people about this well, and especially this episode 806 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:04,400 Speaker 1: coming out during the holiday shopping season. We cannot underestimate 807 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,319 Speaker 1: the power of our pocketbooks, even if we don't have 808 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: a ton of money. To spend. If you make a 809 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,760 Speaker 1: decision to not support a particular store or brand because 810 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,319 Speaker 1: of how they treat their employees, be loud about it. 811 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: Make it known, you know, organize a boycott. Uh. Companies 812 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,479 Speaker 1: listen to where the money goes, and if the money 813 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: stops coming in, they'll probably maybe start paying attention. Um. 814 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 1: So this is this is an issue that is hugely 815 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: important year round because again, I mean, this is the 816 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,760 Speaker 1: largest industry sector in the United States, millions and millions 817 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:53,240 Speaker 1: and millions of people who are stuck in what seems 818 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: like a real economic trap. Um. And if this is not, 819 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 1: if this is not a reason and to treat retail 820 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:06,320 Speaker 1: workers like humans and to just simply clean up after 821 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:10,440 Speaker 1: yourself in your dressing rooms, even if you are in 822 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 1: a bustling h and m uh, then I don't know 823 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: it is so retail workers, let us know what's happening. UM. 824 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,800 Speaker 1: I personally have never worked retail. I've worked fast food, 825 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: I've worked I've done domestic work, childcare, etcetera. But um, 826 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,640 Speaker 1: retail has not been one of them. Caroline, have you 827 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,520 Speaker 1: worked a retail job? I have not. Okay, so, folks, 828 00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:40,680 Speaker 1: we are speaking from inexperienced firsthand, So please Phillison let 829 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,280 Speaker 1: us know all of your thoughts and for anyone who 830 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: has suggestions on political organizing, sent them our way. Mom 831 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,680 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 832 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,720 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast. You 833 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,600 Speaker 1: can also directly reach out to Caroline and me. I'm 834 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: at Kristen Conger and I am at the Caroline and 835 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,720 Speaker 1: We've got a couple of messages to share with you 836 00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: right now. I have a letter here from Sam. She says, 837 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,640 Speaker 1: I was writing in about your recent Genius episode and 838 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,600 Speaker 1: it you talked a bit about how women who do 839 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:20,479 Speaker 1: pursue science tend to gravitate towards the biological sciences, which 840 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,480 Speaker 1: is something I noticed in college myself. I went to 841 00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,400 Speaker 1: rinse a Ler Polytechnic Institute and major to mechanical engineering. 842 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,280 Speaker 1: As you can guess, it's primarily a technical engineering school, 843 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,720 Speaker 1: but I noticed a strong divide among the women in 844 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 1: choice of major. The only biomedical engineering majors I knew 845 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: were women or gay men, while on the other hand, 846 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 1: I could count the number of women in my classes 847 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,400 Speaker 1: on one hand out of say fifty or so people. 848 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 1: I always thought it was strange how women even today 849 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,760 Speaker 1: still tend to gravitate towards the organic sciences and not 850 00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,160 Speaker 1: physics or computer science. Also would like to give a 851 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: shout out to all the women like myself not conforming 852 00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: to stereotypical gender roles. Not only did I get my 853 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,880 Speaker 1: BS and mechanical engineering, I went into the Navy as 854 00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,520 Speaker 1: a submarine officer and was part of the second or 855 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,720 Speaker 1: so group of women stationed aboard U S submarines. I 856 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 1: now work in the commercial sector as a design engineer 857 00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:16,160 Speaker 1: for building automation, but just wanted any women out there 858 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,800 Speaker 1: thinking about pursuing the science is to know it is 859 00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,800 Speaker 1: possible with some hard work and a little bit of genius. 860 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: So thanks Sam. I've got a letter here from Hannah 861 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,320 Speaker 1: also about our episode on gender and genius, and she writes, 862 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: as a cancer biology PhD candidate, I love listening to 863 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,960 Speaker 1: you two every day as I do science. The Boy 864 00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,640 Speaker 1: Geniuses episode struck a chord for me as I just 865 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 1: had a conversation with a brilliant professor the other day 866 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:48,400 Speaker 1: about females and leadership positions in STEM. We've both observed 867 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,880 Speaker 1: that women tend to hold positions of authority and have 868 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: a ton of responsibility, but not actually a lot of power. 869 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,720 Speaker 1: I think this stems fun intended from the perception of 870 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,240 Speaker 1: women and as responsible multitaskers as compared to men who 871 01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:08,040 Speaker 1: hold qualities like leadership and vision. Justin anecdotal observation from 872 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: a newly devoted listener, I'm hoping that a new generation 873 01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,360 Speaker 1: of informed and introspective scientists can lead the way in 874 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:19,000 Speaker 1: changing our perception of who makes a great leader. Well, 875 01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,640 Speaker 1: thank you so much for that insight, Hannah, and thanks 876 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,480 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how 877 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,920 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address. And speaking 878 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:33,919 Speaker 1: of email friends, I Kristen have started a tiny letter 879 01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,200 Speaker 1: in response to a lot of the stuff going on 880 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,480 Speaker 1: in our post election society. It's called the Do Better 881 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,600 Speaker 1: digest Um. So if you want to check that out, 882 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 1: you can subscribe at tiny letter dot com slash Kristen 883 01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,920 Speaker 1: and it's Kristen c R I S T E N. 884 01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Should be a good one and I hope to see there. 885 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:00,800 Speaker 1: And for links to all of our social media as 886 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,760 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with 887 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,000 Speaker 1: our sources so you can learn more about women and retail, 888 01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,959 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 889 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:18,080 Speaker 1: com for more on this, and thousands of other topics. 890 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:27,320 Speaker 1: Visit how stuff works dot com.