WEBVTT - The Best Relationships in History with Eli J. Finkel 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:05.480 Hi everybody. Hi, Hi Catherine, Hi, Hi, how are you. Oh? 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:10.000 I'm so good today. I'm just I'm feeling cheerful. Yeah, 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:15.120 you're always cheerful though, Yeah, those cheerful faces. Oh good. Yeah. 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.400 I have the opposite resting bitch face. I mean that's okay. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:20.680 I sort of sometimes have resting bitch voice where I 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:22.680 sort of like a little bit of vocal fry and 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:24.720 like people think I'm being bitchy, but I'm actually not. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.000 I'm just like stating a fact. Joe says, I do 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:28.800 this thing when people are talking to me that I 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:30.280 don't want to be talking to that I have a 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:36.640 low grumble where I go, And he says, when people 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:41.599 are approaching us or if somebody, if somebody's annoying me, 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.760 he goes, He'll look at me, goes, honey, I could 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.159 hear you. And I'm like what, And then I go, 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.680 can I make a confession? I have heard that noise. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.000 In fact, earlier today, you know, we were recording something 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:01.720 and there was something that you're trying to say and 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:03.640 it kept coming out kind of wrong, and you did 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.720 you had just sort of a yeah, yeah, I think 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.039 it's disdained for the circumstances, I find myself and I go, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:12.560 I mean, you know, you know, and I'm going to 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.840 own it. That's part of me being a bit you 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:16.760 know what I mean, That's who I am. You know, 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.920 it's it's a whole brand. Yeah, one side, bitch, one side, 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.640 sunny side up. Well, I have an interesting update from 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:29.520 our Dex episode. You guys asked about fentanyl in cocaine. Yeah, 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:31.959 you know, we may never know, but here is a 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:36.440 theory that one of our callers wrote in with. She says, Hi, Chelsea, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.120 I had the same question as you and Dex about 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.840 why fentanyl is ending up in people's coke. My former 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.360 heroin Slash cocaine addict boyfriend explained that when dealers cut 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.280 fentanyl into the coke, it balances it out a little, 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.680 so you're able to do more of the coke without 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.560 getting too anxious. It gives more of a euphoric effect, 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.240 so it makes you want to do more of it 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.880 and call them quicker for another eight ball cute huh ps. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.440 In case you're wondering, he's been sober three years of 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:08.760 this January ja. Yeah, well that makes sense until you 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.800 find out that fentanelle kills people, and then you're losing customers. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.160 So yeah, I mean it's not great. It's a great 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.760 idea for the beginning, but then when you find out 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.079 the effect, then you have to like, why would you 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.079 want to kill your own cocaine customers, right, or they're 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.680 not good for business exactly, Or then you can do 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.400 more coke, but then like you can also overdose on 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:35.480 that and die. You know, It's just it's not good. Yeah, 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.959 Fenton al needs to get fuck careful out there. Yeah, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.680 be careful out there. Don't too cocaine anyway, Coke is 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.320 out of style. Yeah. Yeah, we have a professional on 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.120 the show again. This is a fun new thing we're doing. 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:53.799 I like every once in a while to throw in 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:59.840 somebody with a degree or some background in psychotherapy or expertise, 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.680 since the two of us are just bouncing off of 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.120 what we've read and absorbed through other people. Although we've 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:07.760 been doing a pretty good job, a lot of our 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.440 patients are thriving. Yeah. Yeah, So we have a great 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.120 guest today. He's a social psychology professor who studies romantic 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:20.280 relationships meaning initial attraction, marital dynamics, shared goal, per suit, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.360 and he's the author of the best selling book The 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.280 All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work. And 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.959 he's a professor at Northwestern University. This is perfect timing 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:35.760 since I'm probably gonna end up getting married. Oh hi, Eli, 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.360 how are you good? How are you very well? I'm 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.400 loving life. How about yourself? I mean, yeah, things are 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.600 going you know, other than the state of the world, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.680 but that's always a pain in the ass, right, Yeah, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.560 we've got some state of the world issues, state of 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.240 the world issues. Personally, things are going fine for me, 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.000 actually better than fine, but so I'm doing well. To 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.120 answer your question more succinctly, I recommended your book to 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.320 Chelsea because she's newly in love and she's in a 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.360 really solid, wonderful relationship with a great guy. And when 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.360 I read your book a couple of years ago, I 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.480 was just I have to say, one of the reasons 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.360 that I liked it is it pointed out a lot 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:13.720 of things that like I'm doing right in my relationship, 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.599 which felt very good for like sort of a self 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.320 healthy type of book. I feel like normally when you 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.000 read books like that, you're like, Okay, here's what I'm 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:22.640 doing wrong, and here's what I'm doing wrong, and here's 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.520 what's wrong. I've recommended it to so many people. I 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.800 feel like your book The All or Nothing Marriage is 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.200 just a perfect introduction to Here is what a good 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.520 relationship looks like. It can actually look like a lot 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.880 of different things, but here are some of the things 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.520 that you have to either have or get rid of 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.400 in your relationship to make it last. Yeah, And what 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.159 I really appreciated about the book, it's called The All 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:49.880 or Nothing Marriage, How the best marriages work. What I 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.440 really appreciated about the book is the historical context that 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.080 you put it into, what marriages have been over the 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.760 course of history and what they have become in a 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:03.400 more pragmatic modern society. And so that is very helpful 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.640 to understand what people needed a long time ago versus 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.600 what people need today. You know, everyone talks about how 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.039 we're all a lot more touchy feely emotionally in touch 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.760 with ourselves now more than ever, right, and and how 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.720 to kind of make that work in today's society, and 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.640 what and all the with all of the demands. You know, 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.279 we're not just sitting here going hunting in the morning 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.240 at anymore. Because that's what I'm always comparing myself to 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.520 as a hunter gathering. Right, I'm like, you know what, 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.320 life's not so bad at least you're not hunting today, 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.679 So you kind of break that down in a really 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.680 relatable way, right. I think that is what the point 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.000 of this book is, is to understand what your expectations 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.880 are and how to communicate, which is, you know, the 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.919 bane of everybody's existence. I think communication is can be 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.880 so hard and such a hurdle, and once people learn 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.919 how to do it and are able to exercise it 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.800 more frequently, the results kind of show, right. Yeah, I 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.000 mean that that is the hope, right, that all of 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.520 us are born into a certain cultural and historical moment 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.760 and that just feels like what reality is. Uh. And 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.680 it's only when we step outside that moment and say, well, 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:12.760 how do they used to do it and how do 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.080 they do it in other countries and other cultures that 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.880 you start to get perspective on, first of all, the 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.280 range of the ways people do things, for example, the 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.880 different ways that marriage functions in different times in different places. 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.320 But also you can get a novel perspective on your 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.479 own circumstances and say, look, this is where there's a 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.560 you know, a flexibility that I might not have otherwise 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.880 seen an opportunity to make things better that would have 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.960 been out of reach if I hadn't had this perspective 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.600 from the outside. And what is your background? How did 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.600 you come about writing this book. I am a social psychologist. 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.360 I'm an academic. I'm having a psychology department. I'm having 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:52.159 a business school actually, But basically I do research on relationships. 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.000 And when I say do research, I mean it in 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:57.760 the data way. Lots of us have hypotheses or ideas 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.720 about what makes for a good relationship or a add relationship. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.240 But the truth is, very few of us, including most 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.159 self help writers, put those ideas to any sort of test. 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.760 All of us have instincts that are wrong, and the 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.120 only way you can really know is to, you know, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.120 to test them in a formal way, which is which 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.000 is a pretty cool thing. There's this area of research 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.760 that people don't really know about um called relationship science, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.720 where we try to try to use data to test 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.600 hypotheses about what makes relationships better, what makes them worse? 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.000 And can you give us some of that info, like, 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.000 you know, what, what are the most common themes to 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:31.160 a marriage that isn't going to make it? And what 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.080 are the most common ways to improve things. Well, the 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:36.680 way I lay it out in the book and They 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.600 All or Nothing marriage is that our expectations are essential 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:42.760 and to somethric we all of us realize that it's 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.480 not hard to come across advice. Hey stop asking so much, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.720 for example, But the story ends up being much more 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.400 complicated and much more interesting, I think in terms of 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.400 of what is it that we should look for from 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.520 our relationship? And and once you have this historical and 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.040 cultural perspective, you realize the range of things that people 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.360 do ask for their marriage, things that people don't ask 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.240 from their marriage. And then and then it puts us 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.080 in a position to say, well, what's crucial for us? 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.760 How can we play to our strengths and limit our weaknesses? 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.640 That is yours mind and ours this particular relationship. Um, 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.560 there's a lot of things that are that are essential 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.440 and pretty well validated from the data. For example, most 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.760 of us have a pretty strong need to love and 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.720 be loved. We simultaneously have a pretty strong need not 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.000 to feel rejected. And this leads to an interesting tension 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:36.200 right that that is, how do I simultaneously get very 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.240 close and intimate with you while making sure that I'm 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.280 not vulnerable to paying an exploitation from you. And this 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.120 is one of the things that's most interesting about our 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.120 our really intimate relationships is that is that we don't 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.040 get to maximize both. You can't simultaneously be totally protected 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.560 and totally intimate, and so you have to, through trust 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:57.199 and other things like that, you have to be willing 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.199 to to calibrate how willing am I to be vulnerable 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.480 to you? And if the answer is a lot, that 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.240 means that we're prioritizing closeness and the relationship over self protection. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.160 If the answer is no, I'm a little scared and 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:12.800 I don't feel like I can be that vulnerable, then 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.240 we're prioritizing self protection over over the relationship, neither one 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.600 of which is right or wrong. But until we start 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.680 thinking that way, we we don't really have a perspective 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.040 on the choices that we face, in the trade offs 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.760 that we face. Yeah, because I think that what you're 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.360 talking about, Like, one of the things in the book 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.319 that I thought was interesting was making everybody watch those 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.720 kind of romantic comedy movies and then write their notes 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:34.560 on it, like what they liked about it, what they 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.600 didn't like about it because I think romantic comedy movies 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.760 are a major factor of why women have expectations that 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.240 are not mad, you know what I mean. I mean, Luckily, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.600 I'm in a relationship with somebody who has succeeded any 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.040 expectations I could have ever had for any man. I mean, 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.120 I didn't even think this was possible, so I but 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.160 I know that I when I ever I had an experience. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.920 You know, even the wedding planner with Jennifer Lopez, are 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.920 remember going, what the funk is this ship? Seriously? You know, 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:08.680 like I mean, the formulaic aspect of a movie and 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.640 and and watching that and expecting that that to happen 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.040 is just so unrealistic because every individual has their own 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.199 life history, their own personal demons, their own personal trauma, 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.640 and then you have to join forces with another person 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.520 and try to be you have to be so healthy, 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.080 you know, in my experience, you have to be so 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.200 healthy to be able to be in a relationship. Like 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.040 until I got healthy, I was useless. I could not 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.400 be in a relationship because I have to understand that 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.920 I have to give, and that I have to shut 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.480 up when I want to say something, and that I 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.480 have to be quiet, you know, in certain times, and 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.840 to choose moments for certain conversations. And without therapy I 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:48.520 would have I didn't know how to do any of 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.800 that stuff. Yeah, I mean a couple of interesting things there. 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.239 First of all, one of the things that from my perspective, 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.000 is so striking about that genre, the rom com, is that, 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.080 at least traditionally, it ends with the wedding or maybe 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.400 even the proposal, and from my perspective, you're just getting 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.240 started right Like it's like, well, they met and it 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.520 didn't go well, and they had to resolve the conflicts 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.320 and then they sort of fell in love and he 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.839 said will you and she said I do, and then 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.160 we cut to the credits. It's like, my god, no, 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:22.439 wonder we suck at at at actually living a year 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.959 marriage with somebody, because it's it's like not considered part 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.600 of the romance or part of the story. There's like 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.760 and they all lived happily ever after what they get 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.200 to the proposal and everything from there is sort of 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.640 just is just epilog. A second thing that that is 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.600 so interesting about what you just said about about the 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.800 importance of you know, really getting good with yourself, going 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.000 to therapy, discovering who you are, maybe cultivating a stronger 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.559 sense of self esteem and so forth. That is indeed crucial. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.520 That's that's a really essential part of what makes for 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.079 a good marriage. One of the things that I found 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.679 so interesting when I was working on my my marriage 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.680 book is that that didn't used to be the case, right, Like, 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.640 you don't have to go that far back before, Like 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.040 nobody married for these sorts of reasons. You know, I'm 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.640 marrying you because you know, you make me feel psychologically whole, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.280 or or you're my best friend. I mean, you go 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.960 back literally just two hundred years in this country, and uh, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.920 you know, life was way too precarious for that. It 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.719 would have been an extreme luxury to feel like, I 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.720 don't know, you make me, you know, become my ideal 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.600 self and and I'm like a whole person, and therefore 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.280 it can connect to you in the in this this 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.520 intensive emotional way. Literally it used to be about food, clothing, 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.480 and shelter, to be about like how do we not 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.560 freeze in the wintertime and make sure there's enough to 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.959 eat um throughout the you know, the difficult months. And 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.840 what's what's so interesting I think about these changes, right 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.199 like I'm not just talking about an abstraction. I'm not 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.600 just saying like two years ago, isn't that a fun fact? 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:58.160 The changes are crucial because as we think about the 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.760 way that marriage used to be and way it is now, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.480 we can think, well, okay, well what opportunities does it 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.679 afford today that it didn't used to afford? And what 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.920 challenges does it bring today that it didn't used to bring. 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.400 And you're talking, Chelsea, it sounds like you, you know, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.319 I don't know if you believe in soul mates or whatever, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.559 but it sounds like you've met somebody who's lighting your 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.319 fire and all the dimensions, somebody that feels profoundly compatible 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.160 with you. And you know, those of us who live 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.560 in the current climate, live in one America and are 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.400 able to find that are indeed able to have a 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.880 level of marital connection that was out of reach not 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.480 only two hundred years ago, but even like nine fifty 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.040 right where people just weren't looking for this sort of 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.600 stuff from their marriage. So so that's the positive side. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.240 On the negative side, these expectations aren't easy to meet. 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.720 And you know, if if you, Chelsea, are bringing the 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.599 assumption to your relationship and you have to correct me 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.360 if I have this wrong. But but if you're bringing 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.480 the assumption that I need to be my full, whole 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.920 self and I need him to be his whole, full self, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.120 so it's two whole full selves connecting and really cultivating 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:58.880 the best in each other, which I think a lot 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:00.560 of people, a lot of us these days, are are 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.760 looking for. It's a big ask, and a lot of 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.000 relationships that would have been totally fine, not only two 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.719 years ago, but I don't know fifty like would have 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.760 been totally fine now disappoint us. And that really is 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:13.960 the thesis of the all or nothing marriage. That's the 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.480 thesis of my book, that that we've arrived at a 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:21.080 moment in time where the average marriage is worse than 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.920 in earlier eras because it's harder to meet the needs 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.280 in the expectations that we're bringing to it these days. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.680 But the best marriages today are better than the best 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.440 marriages of earlier eras. And in fact, i'm a little 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.880 beyond the data here, but but my perception, based on 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.120 the evidence is probably the best marriages today are are 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.880 the best marriages that the world has ever known. That's 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.040 so interesting to me that you say that and reading 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:47.920 your book, like it almost takes a little bit of 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.400 pressure off a marriage to think, you know, this person 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.560 doesn't have to be like the best sexual partner I've 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.120 ever had, and the best emotional partner I've ever had, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.880 and an intellectual equal and all these other things and 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.600 my whole community. And you talk a lot about how 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.840 for EON's we had the whole village would fulfill most 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.040 of those roles, and the partner was just the partner 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:11.720 of the person who raised children with and you kept 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.680 each other from starving. But to come to a place 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.160 where you realize, like, oh, my partner might fill four 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.080 of those roles and not ten, or they might fill 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.960 nine of those roles and not ten, and like that's okay. 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.240 And maybe if I do just need to vent and 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.080 he's not ready for me to just vent, he wants 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.360 to give me advice. Maybe I take that to my girlfriends, 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.160 you know, who know that I just need to vent 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.520 or whatever role that person might be lacking for you. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.360 It's not that the whole relationship is a wash. It's 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.040 just that this one need that I have might need 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.080 to be met elsewhere. Yeah, I think that is one 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:50.880 of the essential things that we're kind of losing track 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.560 of as a culture. It didn't used to be the 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.560 case that your spouse was supposed to be your best 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.760 friend and your source of primary emotional fulfillment, the person 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.600 who really helped you with your spiritual quests. There were 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:09.080 certain circumscribed roles that were played by different people in 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.480 your community and in the you know, through throughout the 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.440 course of u S history in particular, but especially in 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.280 the current era. We all write our own vows, our 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.119 own wedding vows. Now it's it's too much of an 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.480 authentic moment for us to take the stuff off the 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.640 shelf and use that stuff. And then I go to 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.680 a lot of weddings. You probably do too, and you 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.080 can listen to the vows, and the vows are things 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.280 like I want to marry you because you're my best friend. 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.240 I want to marry you because again, you know, you 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.440 bring out the best in me. And and you go 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:46.280 down this this rather long list of social emotional, psychological 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.240 reasons why we marry these days. And if I sound 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:51.960 like I'm on the verge of becoming a scold and 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.720 telling everybody to stop doing that, no, I just want 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.680 everyone to realize that it doesn't have to be this way, 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.560 and it didn't used to be this way. We've set 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.840 up a particularly idiosyncratic system. And so again, as you 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.280 were saying, Catherine, one of the ideas in the book 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.720 is not just well, I expect this from my marriage, 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:12.800 and I expect that from my marriage, and I expect 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.840 this other thing from my marriage, but very deliberately and 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.960 very strategically saying I will not expect this thing from 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.840 the marriage. I will not expect this other thing from 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.320 the marriage, because we have this tendency to just pile 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:33.080 more and more and more stuff expectations needs on this 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.600 one relationship. And I'm not saying that always a bad idea. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.680 Sometimes the person who is your best friend really is 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.280 your spouse, and that person also is the best person 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.480 to be your primary source of emotional support, and that 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.439 person also is the person with whom you have the 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.919 most sexual chemistry and down the list, and you know, 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.600 God bless like that's convenient that he's in your house 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.840 with you. But there aren't rules, there's no tablets from 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.760 Mount Sinai that say that that your partner has to 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.840 be this one person, this spouse has to do all 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.040 of those things. And so yes, one of the things 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.280 that that I urge people to do is figure out 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.960 where is it that we have strengths and really lean 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.639 into those things. Yeah, yeah, where is it that we 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.760 come up a bit short? Like we're chronically sort of 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.359 bickering about some something or I'm chronically disappointed in you 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.640 and you hurt my feelings about some things. It might 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.680 be so essential for you that you have to work 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.120 it through with this person, and the book talks about 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.679 that too, But maybe it's something you can let go 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.120 of and say, you know what, every time I want 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.159 to talk about work, he gets kind of cranky with me. 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:36.640 Do I really need to talk to him about work? 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.520 And you realize, you know what, I don't. I have 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.080 plenty of people to talk to about them. Interesting, Yeah, 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.320 that seems like a common problem. Well, we want to 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.879 put you to work right away because we have a 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.520 professional here as opposed to the two of us who 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.720 are constantly dolling out advice with no credentials whatsoever. Accept 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.359 my own therapy experience, which I take very seriously. So 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.520 we want we have callers call in and we're gonna 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.359 have you kind of you know, help everybody, so that 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.720 we have some legitimacy thank you for lending it to us. Yeah, 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.960 and before we get to our collars, we'll take a 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.560 quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, We're gonna 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:17.600 take a quick break and we're back, and we're back. So, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:23.600 Chelsea and Eli, our first question comes from Charmagne. Charmagne says, 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.359 Dear Chelsea, I've been married to my husband for nearly 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.360 fifteen years, and we've gotten into a rut with two 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.680 young kids, busy jobs, and COVID killing our social life. 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.040 I'm always looking for ways that we can spark the 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.320 romance and do something active. Our nights are mostly spent 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:43.080 in bed, watching TV and scrolling through our phones. How 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.240 common is that we're too fucking young and cool to 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:50.480 be acting like a couple of geriatrics. Help Charmaginne Okay, Eli, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.560 I'm gonna let you go first. Obviously, you know that 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.679 is such a sort of classic example, and assuming I'm 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.040 reading the subtext properly, it sounds like this is generally 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.280 a strong, loving marriage that's just as as the as 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.679 Charmaine says, just in a rut. And one of the 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.520 things that's cool about this this line of research. I 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.520 was talking about this area of work relationship sciences is 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.320 we can actually do a better job than even five 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.600 or ten years ago at at saying not only general 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.000 things like Wow, I'll try a date night, but being 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.639 specific about which sorts of activities together are likely to 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.919