1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Hi everybody. Hi, Hi Catherine, Hi, Hi, how are you. Oh? 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm so good today. I'm just I'm feeling cheerful. Yeah, 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: you're always cheerful though, Yeah, those cheerful faces. Oh good. Yeah. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: I have the opposite resting bitch face. I mean that's okay. 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: I sort of sometimes have resting bitch voice where I 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: sort of like a little bit of vocal fry and 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: like people think I'm being bitchy, but I'm actually not. 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm just like stating a fact. Joe says, I do 9 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: this thing when people are talking to me that I 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: don't want to be talking to that I have a 11 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: low grumble where I go, And he says, when people 12 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: are approaching us or if somebody, if somebody's annoying me, 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: he goes, He'll look at me, goes, honey, I could 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: hear you. And I'm like what, And then I go, 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: can I make a confession? I have heard that noise. 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: In fact, earlier today, you know, we were recording something 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: and there was something that you're trying to say and 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: it kept coming out kind of wrong, and you did 19 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: you had just sort of a yeah, yeah, I think 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: it's disdained for the circumstances, I find myself and I go, 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know, and I'm going to 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: own it. That's part of me being a bit you 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's who I am. You know, 24 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a whole brand. Yeah, one side, bitch, one side, 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: sunny side up. Well, I have an interesting update from 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: our Dex episode. You guys asked about fentanyl in cocaine. Yeah, 27 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: you know, we may never know, but here is a 28 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: theory that one of our callers wrote in with. She says, Hi, Chelsea, 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: I had the same question as you and Dex about 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: why fentanyl is ending up in people's coke. My former 31 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: heroin Slash cocaine addict boyfriend explained that when dealers cut 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: fentanyl into the coke, it balances it out a little, 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: so you're able to do more of the coke without 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: getting too anxious. It gives more of a euphoric effect, 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: so it makes you want to do more of it 36 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: and call them quicker for another eight ball cute huh ps. 37 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, he's been sober three years of 38 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: this January ja. Yeah, well that makes sense until you 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: find out that fentanelle kills people, and then you're losing customers. 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's not great. It's a great 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: idea for the beginning, but then when you find out 42 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: the effect, then you have to like, why would you 43 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: want to kill your own cocaine customers, right, or they're 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: not good for business exactly, Or then you can do 45 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: more coke, but then like you can also overdose on 46 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: that and die. You know, It's just it's not good. Yeah, 47 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: Fenton al needs to get fuck careful out there. Yeah, 48 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: be careful out there. Don't too cocaine anyway, Coke is 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: out of style. Yeah. Yeah, we have a professional on 50 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: the show again. This is a fun new thing we're doing. 51 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: I like every once in a while to throw in 52 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: somebody with a degree or some background in psychotherapy or expertise, 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: since the two of us are just bouncing off of 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: what we've read and absorbed through other people. Although we've 55 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: been doing a pretty good job, a lot of our 56 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: patients are thriving. Yeah. Yeah, So we have a great 57 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: guest today. He's a social psychology professor who studies romantic 58 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: relationships meaning initial attraction, marital dynamics, shared goal, per suit, 59 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: and he's the author of the best selling book The 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work. And 61 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: he's a professor at Northwestern University. This is perfect timing 62 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: since I'm probably gonna end up getting married. Oh hi, Eli, 63 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: how are you good? How are you very well? I'm 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: loving life. How about yourself? I mean, yeah, things are 65 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: going you know, other than the state of the world, 66 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: but that's always a pain in the ass, right, Yeah, 67 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: we've got some state of the world issues, state of 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: the world issues. Personally, things are going fine for me, 69 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: actually better than fine, but so I'm doing well. To 70 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: answer your question more succinctly, I recommended your book to 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: Chelsea because she's newly in love and she's in a 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: really solid, wonderful relationship with a great guy. And when 73 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: I read your book a couple of years ago, I 74 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: was just I have to say, one of the reasons 75 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: that I liked it is it pointed out a lot 76 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: of things that like I'm doing right in my relationship, 77 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: which felt very good for like sort of a self 78 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: healthy type of book. I feel like normally when you 79 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: read books like that, you're like, Okay, here's what I'm 80 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: doing wrong, and here's what I'm doing wrong, and here's 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: what's wrong. I've recommended it to so many people. I 82 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: feel like your book The All or Nothing Marriage is 83 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: just a perfect introduction to Here is what a good 84 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: relationship looks like. It can actually look like a lot 85 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: of different things, but here are some of the things 86 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: that you have to either have or get rid of 87 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: in your relationship to make it last. Yeah, And what 88 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: I really appreciated about the book, it's called The All 89 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: or Nothing Marriage, How the best marriages work. What I 90 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: really appreciated about the book is the historical context that 91 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: you put it into, what marriages have been over the 92 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: course of history and what they have become in a 93 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: more pragmatic modern society. And so that is very helpful 94 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: to understand what people needed a long time ago versus 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: what people need today. You know, everyone talks about how 96 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: we're all a lot more touchy feely emotionally in touch 97 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: with ourselves now more than ever, right, and and how 98 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: to kind of make that work in today's society, and 99 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: what and all the with all of the demands. You know, 100 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: we're not just sitting here going hunting in the morning 101 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: at anymore. Because that's what I'm always comparing myself to 102 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: as a hunter gathering. Right, I'm like, you know what, 103 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: life's not so bad at least you're not hunting today, 104 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: So you kind of break that down in a really 105 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: relatable way, right. I think that is what the point 106 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: of this book is, is to understand what your expectations 107 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: are and how to communicate, which is, you know, the 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: bane of everybody's existence. I think communication is can be 109 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: so hard and such a hurdle, and once people learn 110 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 1: how to do it and are able to exercise it 111 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: more frequently, the results kind of show, right. Yeah, I 112 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: mean that that is the hope, right, that all of 113 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: us are born into a certain cultural and historical moment 114 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: and that just feels like what reality is. Uh. And 115 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: it's only when we step outside that moment and say, well, 116 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: how do they used to do it and how do 117 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: they do it in other countries and other cultures that 118 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: you start to get perspective on, first of all, the 119 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: range of the ways people do things, for example, the 120 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: different ways that marriage functions in different times in different places. 121 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: But also you can get a novel perspective on your 122 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: own circumstances and say, look, this is where there's a 123 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: you know, a flexibility that I might not have otherwise 124 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: seen an opportunity to make things better that would have 125 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: been out of reach if I hadn't had this perspective 126 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: from the outside. And what is your background? How did 127 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: you come about writing this book. I am a social psychologist. 128 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm an academic. I'm having a psychology department. I'm having 129 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: a business school actually, But basically I do research on relationships. 130 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: And when I say do research, I mean it in 131 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: the data way. Lots of us have hypotheses or ideas 132 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: about what makes for a good relationship or a add relationship. 133 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: But the truth is, very few of us, including most 134 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: self help writers, put those ideas to any sort of test. 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: All of us have instincts that are wrong, and the 136 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: only way you can really know is to, you know, 137 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: to test them in a formal way, which is which 138 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: is a pretty cool thing. There's this area of research 139 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: that people don't really know about um called relationship science, 140 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: where we try to try to use data to test 141 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: hypotheses about what makes relationships better, what makes them worse? 142 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: And can you give us some of that info, like, 143 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, what, what are the most common themes to 144 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: a marriage that isn't going to make it? And what 145 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: are the most common ways to improve things. Well, the 146 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: way I lay it out in the book and They 147 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: All or Nothing marriage is that our expectations are essential 148 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: and to somethric we all of us realize that it's 149 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: not hard to come across advice. Hey stop asking so much, 150 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: for example, But the story ends up being much more 151 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: complicated and much more interesting, I think in terms of 152 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: of what is it that we should look for from 153 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: our relationship? And and once you have this historical and 154 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: cultural perspective, you realize the range of things that people 155 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: do ask for their marriage, things that people don't ask 156 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: from their marriage. And then and then it puts us 157 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: in a position to say, well, what's crucial for us? 158 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: How can we play to our strengths and limit our weaknesses? 159 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: That is yours mind and ours this particular relationship. Um, 160 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that are that are essential 161 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: and pretty well validated from the data. For example, most 162 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: of us have a pretty strong need to love and 163 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: be loved. We simultaneously have a pretty strong need not 164 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: to feel rejected. And this leads to an interesting tension 165 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: right that that is, how do I simultaneously get very 166 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: close and intimate with you while making sure that I'm 167 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: not vulnerable to paying an exploitation from you. And this 168 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: is one of the things that's most interesting about our 169 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: our really intimate relationships is that is that we don't 170 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: get to maximize both. You can't simultaneously be totally protected 171 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: and totally intimate, and so you have to, through trust 172 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: and other things like that, you have to be willing 173 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: to to calibrate how willing am I to be vulnerable 174 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: to you? And if the answer is a lot, that 175 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: means that we're prioritizing closeness and the relationship over self protection. 176 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: If the answer is no, I'm a little scared and 177 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: I don't feel like I can be that vulnerable, then 178 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: we're prioritizing self protection over over the relationship, neither one 179 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: of which is right or wrong. But until we start 180 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: thinking that way, we we don't really have a perspective 181 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: on the choices that we face, in the trade offs 182 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: that we face. Yeah, because I think that what you're 183 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: talking about, Like, one of the things in the book 184 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting was making everybody watch those 185 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: kind of romantic comedy movies and then write their notes 186 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: on it, like what they liked about it, what they 187 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: didn't like about it because I think romantic comedy movies 188 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: are a major factor of why women have expectations that 189 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: are not mad, you know what I mean. I mean, Luckily, 190 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: I'm in a relationship with somebody who has succeeded any 191 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: expectations I could have ever had for any man. I mean, 192 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: I didn't even think this was possible, so I but 193 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: I know that I when I ever I had an experience. 194 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: You know, even the wedding planner with Jennifer Lopez, are 195 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: remember going, what the funk is this ship? Seriously? You know, 196 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: like I mean, the formulaic aspect of a movie and 197 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: and and watching that and expecting that that to happen 198 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: is just so unrealistic because every individual has their own 199 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: life history, their own personal demons, their own personal trauma, 200 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: and then you have to join forces with another person 201 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: and try to be you have to be so healthy, 202 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, in my experience, you have to be so 203 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: healthy to be able to be in a relationship. Like 204 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: until I got healthy, I was useless. I could not 205 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: be in a relationship because I have to understand that 206 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: I have to give, and that I have to shut 207 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: up when I want to say something, and that I 208 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: have to be quiet, you know, in certain times, and 209 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: to choose moments for certain conversations. And without therapy I 210 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: would have I didn't know how to do any of 211 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, I mean a couple of interesting things there. 212 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,239 Speaker 1: First of all, one of the things that from my perspective, 213 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: is so striking about that genre, the rom com, is that, 214 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: at least traditionally, it ends with the wedding or maybe 215 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: even the proposal, and from my perspective, you're just getting 216 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: started right Like it's like, well, they met and it 217 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: didn't go well, and they had to resolve the conflicts 218 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: and then they sort of fell in love and he 219 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: said will you and she said I do, and then 220 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: we cut to the credits. It's like, my god, no, 221 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: wonder we suck at at at actually living a year 222 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: marriage with somebody, because it's it's like not considered part 223 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: of the romance or part of the story. There's like 224 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: and they all lived happily ever after what they get 225 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: to the proposal and everything from there is sort of 226 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: just is just epilog. A second thing that that is 227 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: so interesting about what you just said about about the 228 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: importance of you know, really getting good with yourself, going 229 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: to therapy, discovering who you are, maybe cultivating a stronger 230 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: sense of self esteem and so forth. That is indeed crucial. 231 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: That's that's a really essential part of what makes for 232 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: a good marriage. One of the things that I found 233 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: so interesting when I was working on my my marriage 234 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: book is that that didn't used to be the case, right, Like, 235 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: you don't have to go that far back before, Like 236 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: nobody married for these sorts of reasons. You know, I'm 237 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: marrying you because you know, you make me feel psychologically whole, 238 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: or or you're my best friend. I mean, you go 239 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: back literally just two hundred years in this country, and uh, 240 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, life was way too precarious for that. It 241 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 1: would have been an extreme luxury to feel like, I 242 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: don't know, you make me, you know, become my ideal 243 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: self and and I'm like a whole person, and therefore 244 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: it can connect to you in the in this this 245 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: intensive emotional way. Literally it used to be about food, clothing, 246 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: and shelter, to be about like how do we not 247 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: freeze in the wintertime and make sure there's enough to 248 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: eat um throughout the you know, the difficult months. And 249 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: what's what's so interesting I think about these changes, right 250 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: like I'm not just talking about an abstraction. I'm not 251 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: just saying like two years ago, isn't that a fun fact? 252 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: The changes are crucial because as we think about the 253 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: way that marriage used to be and way it is now, 254 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: we can think, well, okay, well what opportunities does it 255 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: afford today that it didn't used to afford? And what 256 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: challenges does it bring today that it didn't used to bring. 257 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: And you're talking, Chelsea, it sounds like you, you know, 258 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: I don't know if you believe in soul mates or whatever, 259 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 1: but it sounds like you've met somebody who's lighting your 260 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: fire and all the dimensions, somebody that feels profoundly compatible 261 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: with you. And you know, those of us who live 262 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: in the current climate, live in one America and are 263 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: able to find that are indeed able to have a 264 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: level of marital connection that was out of reach not 265 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: only two hundred years ago, but even like nine fifty 266 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: right where people just weren't looking for this sort of 267 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: stuff from their marriage. So so that's the positive side. 268 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: On the negative side, these expectations aren't easy to meet. 269 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: And you know, if if you, Chelsea, are bringing the 270 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 1: assumption to your relationship and you have to correct me 271 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: if I have this wrong. But but if you're bringing 272 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: the assumption that I need to be my full, whole 273 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: self and I need him to be his whole, full self, 274 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: so it's two whole full selves connecting and really cultivating 275 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: the best in each other, which I think a lot 276 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: of people, a lot of us these days, are are 277 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: looking for. It's a big ask, and a lot of 278 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: relationships that would have been totally fine, not only two 279 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: years ago, but I don't know fifty like would have 280 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: been totally fine now disappoint us. And that really is 281 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: the thesis of the all or nothing marriage. That's the 282 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: thesis of my book, that that we've arrived at a 283 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: moment in time where the average marriage is worse than 284 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: in earlier eras because it's harder to meet the needs 285 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: in the expectations that we're bringing to it these days. 286 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: But the best marriages today are better than the best 287 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: marriages of earlier eras. And in fact, i'm a little 288 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: beyond the data here, but but my perception, based on 289 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: the evidence is probably the best marriages today are are 290 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: the best marriages that the world has ever known. That's 291 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: so interesting to me that you say that and reading 292 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: your book, like it almost takes a little bit of 293 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: pressure off a marriage to think, you know, this person 294 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like the best sexual partner I've 295 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: ever had, and the best emotional partner I've ever had, 296 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: and an intellectual equal and all these other things and 297 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: my whole community. And you talk a lot about how 298 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: for EON's we had the whole village would fulfill most 299 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: of those roles, and the partner was just the partner 300 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: of the person who raised children with and you kept 301 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: each other from starving. But to come to a place 302 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: where you realize, like, oh, my partner might fill four 303 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: of those roles and not ten, or they might fill 304 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: nine of those roles and not ten, and like that's okay. 305 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: And maybe if I do just need to vent and 306 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: he's not ready for me to just vent, he wants 307 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: to give me advice. Maybe I take that to my girlfriends, 308 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: you know, who know that I just need to vent 309 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: or whatever role that person might be lacking for you. 310 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: It's not that the whole relationship is a wash. It's 311 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: just that this one need that I have might need 312 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: to be met elsewhere. Yeah, I think that is one 313 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: of the essential things that we're kind of losing track 314 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: of as a culture. It didn't used to be the 315 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: case that your spouse was supposed to be your best 316 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: friend and your source of primary emotional fulfillment, the person 317 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: who really helped you with your spiritual quests. There were 318 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: certain circumscribed roles that were played by different people in 319 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: your community and in the you know, through throughout the 320 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: course of u S history in particular, but especially in 321 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: the current era. We all write our own vows, our 322 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,119 Speaker 1: own wedding vows. Now it's it's too much of an 323 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: authentic moment for us to take the stuff off the 324 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: shelf and use that stuff. And then I go to 325 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot of weddings. You probably do too, and you 326 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: can listen to the vows, and the vows are things 327 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: like I want to marry you because you're my best friend. 328 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: I want to marry you because again, you know, you 329 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: bring out the best in me. And and you go 330 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: down this this rather long list of social emotional, psychological 331 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: reasons why we marry these days. And if I sound 332 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: like I'm on the verge of becoming a scold and 333 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: telling everybody to stop doing that, no, I just want 334 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: everyone to realize that it doesn't have to be this way, 335 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: and it didn't used to be this way. We've set 336 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: up a particularly idiosyncratic system. And so again, as you 337 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: were saying, Catherine, one of the ideas in the book 338 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: is not just well, I expect this from my marriage, 339 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: and I expect that from my marriage, and I expect 340 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: this other thing from my marriage, but very deliberately and 341 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: very strategically saying I will not expect this thing from 342 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: the marriage. I will not expect this other thing from 343 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: the marriage, because we have this tendency to just pile 344 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: more and more and more stuff expectations needs on this 345 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: one relationship. And I'm not saying that always a bad idea. 346 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes the person who is your best friend really is 347 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: your spouse, and that person also is the best person 348 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: to be your primary source of emotional support, and that 349 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: person also is the person with whom you have the 350 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: most sexual chemistry and down the list, and you know, 351 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: God bless like that's convenient that he's in your house 352 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: with you. But there aren't rules, there's no tablets from 353 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: Mount Sinai that say that that your partner has to 354 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: be this one person, this spouse has to do all 355 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: of those things. And so yes, one of the things 356 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: that that I urge people to do is figure out 357 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: where is it that we have strengths and really lean 358 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: into those things. Yeah, yeah, where is it that we 359 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: come up a bit short? Like we're chronically sort of 360 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: bickering about some something or I'm chronically disappointed in you 361 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: and you hurt my feelings about some things. It might 362 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: be so essential for you that you have to work 363 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: it through with this person, and the book talks about 364 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: that too, But maybe it's something you can let go 365 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: of and say, you know what, every time I want 366 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: to talk about work, he gets kind of cranky with me. 367 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: Do I really need to talk to him about work? 368 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: And you realize, you know what, I don't. I have 369 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: plenty of people to talk to about them. Interesting, Yeah, 370 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: that seems like a common problem. Well, we want to 371 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: put you to work right away because we have a 372 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: professional here as opposed to the two of us who 373 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: are constantly dolling out advice with no credentials whatsoever. Accept 374 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: my own therapy experience, which I take very seriously. So 375 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: we want we have callers call in and we're gonna 376 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: have you kind of you know, help everybody, so that 377 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: we have some legitimacy thank you for lending it to us. Yeah, 378 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: and before we get to our collars, we'll take a 379 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, We're gonna 380 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're back, and we're back. So, 381 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: Chelsea and Eli, our first question comes from Charmagne. Charmagne says, 382 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea, I've been married to my husband for nearly 383 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: fifteen years, and we've gotten into a rut with two 384 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: young kids, busy jobs, and COVID killing our social life. 385 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: I'm always looking for ways that we can spark the 386 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: romance and do something active. Our nights are mostly spent 387 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: in bed, watching TV and scrolling through our phones. How 388 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: common is that we're too fucking young and cool to 389 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: be acting like a couple of geriatrics. Help Charmaginne Okay, Eli, 390 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you go first. Obviously, you know that 391 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: is such a sort of classic example, and assuming I'm 392 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: reading the subtext properly, it sounds like this is generally 393 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: a strong, loving marriage that's just as as the as 394 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: Charmaine says, just in a rut. And one of the 395 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: things that's cool about this this line of research. I 396 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: was talking about this area of work relationship sciences is 397 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: we can actually do a better job than even five 398 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: or ten years ago at at saying not only general 399 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: things like Wow, I'll try a date night, but being 400 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: specific about which sorts of activities together are likely to 401 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: cultivate what sorts of connections and and so one of 402 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: my favorite studies is one that that randomly assigns people 403 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: to do some additional tasks, so there's a control condition 404 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: that they don't do anything. There's one condition, one of 405 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: the two intervention conditions has people do comfortable activities and charmaine. 406 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: It sounds like you have totally nailed it Netflix and chill, 407 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: but perhaps not with the hashtag and chill component to it. 408 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: And then the third one is do novel and exciting activities, 409 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: that is, things that you don't normally do. Turns out 410 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: that both of those interventions, relative to people who are 411 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: in the control condition, make people feel closer to each other. 412 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: If you actually report like how connected do you feel 413 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: to your partner? Doesn't really matter if you're doing Netflix 414 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: or you know, reruns of Friends, or you're going ballroom dancing, 415 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But for hotness, like if the if 416 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: the thing that you're really trying to cultivate. Is this 417 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: sense of fire that maybe you had fifteen years ago 418 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: and is waning a little bit, not because of any 419 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: sort of severe conflict, but maybe something closer to boredom. 420 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: It's really that other type. It's not watching friends, it's 421 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: trying something new and different that tends to cultivate a 422 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: hotter sense of connection with the partner. So do you 423 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: have any examples of what that might be, like, what 424 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: like taking a cooking class at home? You know, I 425 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: feel like the phones are such a We all fall 426 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: into that grossness of being on our phones at the 427 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: end of the night. And I think it's a really 428 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: good rule to incorporate into anyone's life to just designate 429 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: a period of time that you are not on your phones, 430 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: because it also feels lame when you're on your phone 431 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: in bed, even when you're watching TV. It's like I 432 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: remember reading, like, if you're walking down the street and 433 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: you're on your phone, you're doing both of those things poorly. 434 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: So if you're gonna be on your phone, it's an 435 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: allocated amount of time that you're like, Okay, I'm gonna 436 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: be on my phone. Joe and I do this all 437 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: the time. I'm like I'm gonna be on my phone 438 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: for the next twenty minutes. He's like, okay, I'll do 439 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: the same thing. And when we're in bed together, we're 440 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: never on our phones unless we're you know, watching a 441 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: funny video or something like that. Like we we really 442 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: try not to. So it's just bad habits too. It's like, hey, honey, 443 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: you and me, when we're in bed together, we're gonna 444 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: be in bed together. We're not going to have our 445 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: phones on for an hour, an hour and a half, 446 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: two hours at night. Nothing is that important. You don't 447 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: need to be scrolling through TikTok or Instagram for those 448 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: two hours. You know, whatever you're looking for will be 449 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: there in the morning. And it is brain fry when 450 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: we do that, So why not redirect that brain fry 451 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: towards each other and just at least be snuggling or 452 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, do something online together, play a game online together, 453 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: or get out of board game and play it together. 454 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: You know, even simple activities like watching TV can be 455 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: much more meaningful if you both don't have phones in 456 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: your hand. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there is something diabolical 457 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: about the size of the phone. It's it's definitely like 458 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: for a single individual, not necessarily romantically on a tech us, 459 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: but for one pair of eyes. Chelsea, I'm curious, how 460 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: long have you been with this new person. I've been 461 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: with him since June, like five months, I think, But 462 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: I've known him for a long time. He's an old 463 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: friend of mine, so we've been friends for like fifteen 464 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: years and we just got romantically together in August. I 465 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: love it. I mean, I think what our you know, 466 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: what our first caller would say was five months in, 467 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: like why you were talking about right? Right? Right? And 468 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: I think she's she's actually right. And I think this 469 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: is one of the things that we start to lament 470 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: as our relationships progress. Is like, at first, we really 471 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: are thinking about each other all the time, and nobody 472 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: needs any sort of prompting or anything put on the 473 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: schedule to you know, have some sexy time together. And 474 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: then as the relationship gets more let's just say, has 475 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: existed longer, it tends to be harder. Right, Like, there's 476 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: there's a couple of things that that really favor hotness 477 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: in the early stages of a relationship. One is novelty 478 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: and the others. It looks like there's a couple of 479 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: different forms of love that go into these meaningful long 480 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: term relationships. One is something that you might call infatuation 481 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: or something like that, and it seems to be a 482 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: fundamentally different like set of neural systems, like a different 483 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: set of processes in the brain. And during that phase 484 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: we often think, oh, I would never be with anybody 485 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: else because all I can think about is you and 486 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: and it's this sort of obsessive passionate things. Sometimes it 487 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: almost feels like an obsessive compulsive disorder. I literally can't 488 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: stop thinking about you, and I'm chronically checking to see 489 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: if you texted back. But there's a second type that's 490 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: slower to emerge, right, So if we call that something 491 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: like infatuation, there's a second type that's slower to emerge 492 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: but really is like the long term blue and we 493 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: can call it attachment or something like that. And if 494 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: you look at the the ratio of infatuation to attachment 495 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: and say five months into a relationship versus a fifteen 496 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: years into the relationship on average, you see a large difference. 497 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: And this will surprise literally none of your listeners that 498 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: the infatuation stuff is very intensive at first, and then 499 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: the sort of more warm, friendly sort of stuff really 500 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: builds more gradually over time. And so the real question 501 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: is is not like, how can we have a really 502 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: hot relationship six for six months? It's how can we 503 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: have a really hot relationship for sixty years? And that 504 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: is again a different set of challenges that probably requires 505 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: that we make a real effort, whereas having a hot 506 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: relationship for six months, like everything's hot in the first 507 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: six months, right, Yeah, And something you talk about in 508 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: your book is reminding each other and reminding yourself about 509 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: what what caused you to fall in love with this person, 510 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: going back to the basics, going back to the O 511 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: G reason why you guys got together, you know, thinking 512 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: about those moments, thinking about the things they did that 513 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: made you fall in love with them. And that is 514 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: a powerful tool for anybody to remember, whether you're in 515 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: a romantic relationship or a friendship, whenever your hit hit 516 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: a tough patch, it's important to remind yourself why you 517 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: came together with this person in the first place. And 518 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: that's a good aphrodisiac that I think a lot of 519 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: people benefit from remembering why why do you love this person? 520 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: What are the things that he did to make you 521 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: feel special? That things that turned you on about him? 522 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: What were the things that he did that made you 523 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: feel like he was sexy and he you wanted him, 524 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, as your husband, as the father of your children, 525 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: all of those things. You know. It's interesting this like 526 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: reflecting back part is especially interesting because it underscores something 527 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of wild about the idea of marriage as a 528 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: as a means of deep psychological and emotional and sexual connection, 529 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: right like if it was a sacrament before God, or 530 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: let's just kind of do it and then we'll run 531 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: the household or something that would be different. But for 532 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: the sorts of things we're looking for. It's like, you know, 533 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: if you were to take this sort of I don't 534 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: know default example of like well, I don't know. We 535 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: met when we were twenty eight and that seemed like 536 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: the right time, and then we went to Europe and 537 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: like the sex in Paris, I'll never forget it, and 538 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: I just can't stop thinking about him. And it was 539 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: a couple of years and he proposed and I was thrilled, 540 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: and we got married. All totally reasonable. I feel no 541 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: judgment of any of that stuff. But how representative of 542 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: your hut your life together were those two three years 543 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: that you used to get to know each other, right, 544 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: like what we traveled around Europe and hot text compariss 545 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: Like sure, that's like a little bit of what a 546 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: long term marriages, especially if you're considering having kids. Right, 547 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know, Like then suddenly I'm involved 548 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: in like imposing discipline on racalcitrent little people and like 549 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: in in Sometimes it's like, well, the things that I 550 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: really liked about you don't emerge as often. And so 551 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: if you find, like, as I think back about what 552 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: was so nice about us when we first met, it's like, 553 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: to some degree we can try to get back into 554 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: those habits. To some degree, it's like, well, our lives 555 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: are different now. And again here I think your first 556 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: caller had a really good insight, which was, well, it's COVID, 557 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: we've got young kids at home, we're watching Netflix and 558 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 1: so forth. It's like, you know what you found exciting 559 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: about that guy when you first met him, how he 560 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: charmed people at the bar, and so a lot of 561 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: it is for relationships that are generally solid but kind 562 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: of in a rut. It's breaking out of that rut 563 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: in a way that you can find that person, like 564 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: where you know he's covered in spit up. Fifteen years 565 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: have spit up on that guy. Right, it's like, where 566 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: do we find that person who was playful and naughty 567 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: and irreverent and and again it's not impossible to do, 568 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: but it is a deliberate effort at that stage of 569 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: a relationship. It's also important to find that about yourself, right, 570 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: to find your kernel of truth you're real, like standing 571 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: in your own power, knowing who you are because many times, 572 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: and especially I know, I can only imagine with people 573 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: having children that that's what they lose, the person that 574 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: they used to be. So, you know, to know that 575 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: that person isn't gone, that that person has shifted, you know, 576 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: and to kind of remind yourself of the playfulness that 577 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: we all had, you know, or people who with children 578 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: had before the children came along. Yeah, one of the 579 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, if I had a magic wand and could 580 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: wave it and change the relationships of America or something 581 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: like that the long term ones, One of the things 582 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: I would wish for is more play. I don't necessarily 583 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: mean hashtag play or quotations play, but that too. But 584 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: it's easy to get into habits. And again, some habits 585 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,239 Speaker 1: are good, Some are bad, but it's like, Okay, this 586 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: is the time I wake up, and then I see 587 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: the kids off and that's this process, and then it's 588 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: another process. It's like, you know, when was the last 589 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: time we were really naughty? Like when was the last 590 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: time we were irreverent or just cracked up? And those things. 591 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: You know, life is busy, especially you have a two 592 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: career couple, and and you're chronically especially with young kids. Right, Like, 593 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: I could see why there's like extended periods of time, 594 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: possibly a decade or something where it's like, I don't know, 595 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: it just felt so chaotic, and in the meantime, did 596 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: we really attend to what is really, at least for 597 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: most of us, the organizing relationship, the most central relationship 598 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: in our life, and and sometimes we're a little bit 599 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: neglectful of it in a way that's benign and mild 600 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: for each individual day, but over the course of a 601 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: thousand days or five thousand days, end up taking a 602 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: real toll. And so yeah, I would love it if 603 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: I could break people out of their routines in a 604 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: way that was naughty, irreverent, playful, childlike in a way, 605 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: but perhaps with sex. I think Joe has a lot 606 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: of those qualities. Um My husband also like he's just 607 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: constantly being like silly. He makes me laugh. And it 608 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: was a couple of years ago that I had to 609 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: make a really conscious choice when he'll do a thing 610 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: sometimes where he tries to make me laugh if we're 611 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: sort of starting an argument or starting to disagree, and 612 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: I used to just be like, well, I'm not gonna like, 613 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna buy into that. And I just came 614 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: to a point a few years ago where I'm like, 615 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: guess what, life is a lot more fun if you 616 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: just laugh, and then you guys get back into normal 617 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: if you just giggle, you like, you know, give him 618 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: the win, right right right. I think that's a that's 619 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: a really important thing. It's like getting to a point 620 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: where you can give it away, like you give the 621 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: person to win. You're like, let them take this, because 622 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: then you're not operating out of ego. And that's the 623 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: biggest problem that we all kind of stumble on is 624 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: our own pride, which is pointless and that kind of dynamic. Well, 625 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: our next caller is is Caitlin. Caitlin is in Seattle, 626 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: and she says, Dear Chelsea, my name is Caitlin, and 627 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking for some advice and a ray of hope 628 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: from you and the team. Last week, I broke up 629 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: with my loving and dependable boyfriend of one and a 630 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: half years, all because of this tiny feeling in my gut. 631 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: He wasn't the one. I tried so hard to make 632 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: the unsurreness go away and just couldn't, even though he 633 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: was completely wonderful and the partner anyone would want. I 634 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: found myself forced to reckon with the decision I've made, 635 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: and I'm constantly wondering if something better is actually out there. 636 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: I miss him so much and I'm so sad at 637 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: the pain I've caused us both. I'm scared I made 638 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: the wrong decision and that I may never find love again. 639 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: Any advice for staying the course and letting go of 640 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: fear of the unknown? I feel overwhelmed that I may 641 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: never find happiness again. Caitlin, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, Chelsea, Hi. 642 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: This is Eli Finkel. Hi. Eli. He's a relationship scientist. 643 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: I need Eli in my life. Yeah, and you do. 644 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: It's perfect timing, And you know Katherine right. You guys corresponded. Well, 645 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm glad you called in and I'm glad to talk 646 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: to you. So tell us when did this happen? So 647 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: this happened about We're going on three weeks now, so 648 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: this is pretty recent. Okay, So that's natural. All of 649 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: your feelings are totally natural. I would say, I'm gonna 650 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: let Eli weigh in. I would say, though, trusting your 651 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: instinct is a very very important thing for women to do, 652 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: especially moreover I think than anyone, because women have such 653 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: a habit of ignoring our instincts. So I would say 654 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: that trusting your instinct is the number one thing that 655 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: you can do for yourself to be an empowered person. 656 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: And you did that, and all of these feelings that 657 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: you're having come with that decision, you know, missing somebody 658 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: second guessing your decision, wondering what you did, if you 659 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: did the right thing, And I think that's all natural, 660 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: and you have to know that, like, you're not experiencing 661 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: these feelings as a result of making a wrong decision 662 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: per se. This is all comes with that kind of 663 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: decision making. Once you make a decision to get rid 664 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: of somebody in your life that there's not necessarily anything 665 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: wrong with, but it's not a hundred and fifty percent 666 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: right in your mind, You're signing up for all of 667 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: these emotions that come along with breaking up, and that's 668 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: totally normal and natural, and there's no reason to second 669 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: guess yourself. You know, if you feel like this in 670 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: a year, then I would say, oh, okay, then maybe 671 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: you really need to revisit it. But all of this 672 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: stuff is, these are the things that are going to 673 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: happen to you emotionally after you make a decision like that, Eli, 674 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: what do you think? You know? One of the things 675 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: about really engaging with life, being somebody who's truly alive 676 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: is that you are in the arena and that you 677 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: are going to make decisions. This is all of us. 678 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: I'm not talking just to you, Kaitlin, all of us. 679 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna make decisions. Those decisions are made under uncertainty, 680 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: and we will have some regrets. And that is like 681 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: this existentially agonizing state of what it is to be 682 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: a human being. Um, and so I don't know, like, 683 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: did you make the right decision? Did you make the 684 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: wrong decision? I don't know. I do think a lot 685 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: of Chelsea's analysis is deeply wise in that, you know, 686 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: the ability to trust oneself is one of the things 687 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: that has great value. And I also agree that these 688 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: sorts of issues have been gendered historically. You know, to 689 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: what degree do we empower women to really trust themselves 690 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: and and go with their instinct. As a relationship scientist, 691 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: I can tell you we we ran a study once 692 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: where this i'll talk an average is now rather than 693 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: about your specific situation. But we ran a study once 694 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: where we followed people over time and perhaps uh deviously, 695 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: these are all people who were in relationships. Every two weeks, 696 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: they completed a survey and we asked them every two weeks, 697 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: if you were to break up with your partner in 698 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: the next two weeks, how happy will you be in 699 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: two weeks from now? And then we also asked four weeks, 700 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: eight weeks, and twelve weeks. We were like, how will 701 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: you be doing? And on average, people were way better 702 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: off than they themselves had forecasted. Now, I don't know 703 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: if that's true for you. It sounds like you're having 704 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: some residual thinking about, you know, some regrets. We don't 705 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: know what your baseline was, like how and Bill and 706 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: you felt one we could go versus now. But what 707 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: we do know is that is that on average, people 708 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: significantly overestimate how distressed they'll be. We could also figure out, 709 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: on average, who are the people who got it most wrong, 710 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: the people who were most in love at the time 711 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: they made their forecast, Like these are people who think 712 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: my life will never go on, I will never be 713 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: whole again. On average, they tend to recuperate reasonably well. 714 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if any of that is resonating with you, Caitlin, 715 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: but that's a little bit from the perspective of the science. Yeah, 716 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: I mean it definitely resonates with me. I feel like 717 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: that's hope in itself, as I just keep wondering like 718 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: when will it end, like when will this emotional pain end, 719 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: and forecasting that it won't, and that's really difficult to 720 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: get past because you're just in the cycle of thinking 721 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: like I'll always feel this way. So it's nice to 722 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: know that I might have overestimated it and the timeline 723 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm expecting is going to be a lot shorter than 724 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: I can see now, so it is useful to have 725 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: some data. I'm kind of a solution oriented person, That's 726 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: why I reached out, so it's nice to know. But also, 727 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, emotions don't have like a beginning, middle, and 728 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: an end all the time, you know, so to say 729 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: to yourself, when is this going to be over? I 730 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: thought this was gonna be over. I've done that with relationships, 731 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: Like why am I still feeling this way? It's been this, 732 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: it's been three months, it's been six months. We don't 733 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: have an exact gauge about how long it takes us 734 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: to get over or pass something. You know, we don't 735 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: have it. And it's not permanent. Nothing is permanent. That's 736 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: the only thing we know for sure is that nothing 737 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: is permanent, right. Our emotional states are physical states. Everything 738 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: is moving and changing, So you're definitely not going to 739 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: feel like this interminably. It's not going to go on 740 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: and on and on, you know. And if you get 741 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: to a point where you feel strongly like you made 742 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: the wrong decision, then you'll have the opportunity to go 743 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: back and correct it. And as a woman, I honestly 744 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: think trusting your gut was the strongest move you could make, 745 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: and that you're going to be fine and you're going 746 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: to go through this. It's been three weeks. That's pretty new. Like, 747 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: I don't get over things in three weeks, and I 748 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: think that's pretty new. You were there with him for 749 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: a year and a half. Give it some space out 750 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: of respect for both of you. Give it some space 751 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: because you don't want to go back prematurely and be 752 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: like hey, because that's not nice either are fair to him. 753 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: So you have to, you know, honor the fact that 754 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: you did end the relationship and not be playing games 755 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: and really get your head to a place where you 756 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: can reflect with some perspective and then no, okay, because 757 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: you will know you're going to get to a place 758 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: where you're gonna go thank god I made that decision, 759 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: or the opposite, you'll get to that place, okay. Are 760 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: you guys of the mindset that not talking or not 761 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: communicating in any way is the fastest path to to 762 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,479 Speaker 1: healing or do you feel like some communication could be okay, Eli, 763 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: that's a you question. I'm not aware of the data. 764 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: I can offer my best intuition. I think if the 765 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: if the goal really is to split, I do think 766 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: there's something to be said for taking a legitimate breather. 767 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean forever. But you see lots of instances. 768 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: Again here I'm talking less about data, but you see 769 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: lots of instances where well, we're still each other's best friends, 770 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: we still sleep together sometimes, and if the goal really 771 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: is too you know, this wasn't the right fit for 772 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: me for what I'm looking for in a relationship right now, 773 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: and therefore I need to get myself to a place 774 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: where I can move on. Then I see some wisdom 775 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: in the plan of in the long run, I hope 776 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: we can be friends, but let's wait until the desire 777 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: to reach out doesn't come from a place of pain 778 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,879 Speaker 1: and craving before we reinitiate that. And that time will 779 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: also give you some space to get into your gut 780 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: and really check, really see, like in two three weeks, 781 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: does this still feel right? Whereas if you do still 782 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: have that connection and that ongoing conversation, it can be 783 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: a little a little muddier. I will say, like, even 784 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: since I originally reached out to you, guys, I feel 785 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: like I've seen an evolution and how I felt what 786 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: once was this gut feeling like has started to uncover 787 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: reason and I didn't feel that initially. So I think 788 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: that is at least some progress of that space you're 789 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: talking about, I'm uncovering more. It's it starts with a 790 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: gut instinct but I think that gut is based on something, 791 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: and when you're so emotionally invested, you can only see that. 792 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: So I do feel like that's you know, changed even 793 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: since I reached out. So that's good. You sound like 794 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: you have your ship together. Also, you know, with the 795 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: holiday season coming up, just because your background, says ho 796 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: Ho made me think of it. You know, just know 797 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: that that those feelings are going to come up, that 798 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: you're not going to be with each other this year, 799 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: and be prepared, like manage your expectations, like Eli talks 800 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: about in his book, you know, manage your expectations for 801 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: what you're going to be feeling. And know there's gonna 802 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: be a couple of rough days where you're really gonna 803 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: miss him and you're gonna want to reach out, and 804 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: if that's the right thing, maybe it's the right thing. 805 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: But have enough respect for him and for yourself to 806 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: stick to the plan because space is the only thing 807 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: that will give you the information you really need to know. 808 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: And you're halfway there and you made a strong decision. 809 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: I respect that a lot, and you're gonna be just fine, 810 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: And I have no doubt you'll know exactly what to 811 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: do when the time is right. Thank you. That's nice 812 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: to hear. Yeah, well, thank you Kitlin. Thank you Caitlin 813 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: for calling in. And have a great holiday season with 814 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: your family and enjoy them, you know. Guys. Yeah, I 815 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: need to lean into that and let us know what 816 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,800 Speaker 1: happens for sure. Yeah. So nice to meet you guys. 817 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. This is a dream. Take care Okay, bye, 818 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Well, 819 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: there's one more question. I definitely want to get to 820 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: with Eli, because this was one of the most surprising 821 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: things that you talked about in your book. This question 822 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: comes from Brett. Dear Chelsea. My name is Brett and 823 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 1: I'm a twenty six year old female and my partner's 824 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: name is t J. He's a twenty year old transmail. 825 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: We've been dating for a year and four months, just 826 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: moved in together and have recently started having conversations about 827 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: opening up our relationship. We've always prioritized open communication and 828 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: our patient and a empathetic with each other. We've been 829 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: honest about our attraction to other people and think that 830 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: opening up our relationship would benefit both of us. Do 831 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: you have any advice about how to open it up? 832 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: While maintaining our long term relationship. Brett, Chelsea, come on, 833 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: I'm not carrying my weight on this episode. This is 834 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: a major decision for couples. But what I appreciate about 835 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: the question is that this is a couple that is 836 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: making the decision deliberately. And actually, this is how I 837 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: felt about the previous caller too, is that it's easy 838 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: to let life happen passively. It's really living in the 839 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: arena to make deliberate decisions that you know may well 840 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: involve regret, but at least the regrets of commission rather 841 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: than regrets of omission. And I have a fairly long 842 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: discussion laid in the book about consensual non monogamy, and 843 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: here I feel obligated to do an aside. This is 844 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: not infidelity and this is not cheating. There's nothing in 845 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: my book that's says, yeah, like promise that you'll be 846 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: faithful and then don't do it. There's nothing in my 847 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: book like that. But this question of is monogamy the 848 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: standard default for all relationships? Well it usually is. Is 849 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: that a good thing? That it's something that almost nobody discusses? 850 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: I think no. I think on average, the state of 851 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: our marriage is the state of our relationships. And let's 852 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: say the US, for example, would be stronger if we 853 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,280 Speaker 1: had a better lexicon, a better ability to talk openly 854 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: about our needs and preferences in the sexual and frankly 855 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: romantic domain. It's it's usually not that you just want 856 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,280 Speaker 1: to go off for a quickie with someone. It's usually 857 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,479 Speaker 1: that you want some type of connection with someone else. 858 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: And so I don't have an opinion about whether any 859 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: individual person should do it, and I don't know enough 860 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: about rhet's circumstances to recommend that they open things up 861 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: or don't. Here, I would like to set myself apart 862 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: from people who are like advocates or zealots for consensual 863 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,720 Speaker 1: non men got me. I think many people, perhaps most people, 864 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: are probably happier in a monogamous relationship. That said, a 865 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: healthy substantial minority of us would probably be not only 866 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 1: happier at the personal level, but have a stronger relationship, 867 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: a stronger let's call it primary relationship or marriage or 868 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 1: whatever we want to say, if there were more openness 869 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: and open discussion about opening things up. So how does 870 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: one do that? I'm not an expert on the you know, 871 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: the conversational gambits, that you need. Just remember that your 872 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: partner might not start from the same headspace that you're in. 873 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: You might think, Oh, I love this person so much. 874 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: But one of the things i'd really and one of 875 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: the things I'd really like to do to make sure 876 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: the relationships stay strong is to see other people. And 877 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: he might hear you say you don't love me and 878 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: you're not attracted to me, And so the ability to 879 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: convey that this desire for opening the relationship doesn't come 880 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: from a place of lack. It doesn't come from a 881 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: place of void. It does come from a place of 882 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: need and desire to live big, ambitious, fulfilling lives that 883 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 1: are ideally well suited for both of us. And I 884 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: think that if we had a society where those conversations 885 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 1: were easier to have, relationships would be better. Yeah, And 886 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: I would also recommend um just a book for them 887 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: to read called Swinging. Oh is there a book a swing? 888 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure there is, but no, I just made 889 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: that up. Well, this is kind of about that, but 890 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: it's called The Ethical Slut. I read it just sort 891 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: of out of curiosity a few years ago, and it's 892 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: really it really sort of breaks down like how to 893 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: have certain conversations. But I think as someone who has 894 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: a couple of friends, you know, a pair of friends 895 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: who were married and spectacularly blew up their marriage by 896 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: deciding to open it up without having read one article 897 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,439 Speaker 1: or one book on the subject, I would say, just 898 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: research the heck out of it before you go into it, 899 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: Talk the heck out of it before you go into it, 900 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: and then like decide if it's right for you, and 901 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: set super clear boundaries. That's basically like as far as 902 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 1: I've read with things, that's the best way you can 903 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,760 Speaker 1: go about it, and then keep talking once you start. Yeah, 904 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 1: I think honesty is the best policy for everything with 905 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: relation to non monogamy and with having relationships. If you're 906 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: both on the same page, that's your decision to do 907 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: that together. But just try not to lie about anything 908 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: and just be as open and honest as you possibly 909 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: can for the most successful outcome. I'd like to add 910 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: one other bit on this that that I just think 911 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: sort of frames the discussion, not not for any individual 912 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: caller or any individual person, but but as a society, 913 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: how are we going to think about monogamy in merit, 914 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: let's say, and for me in this won't surprise you. 915 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: At this stage of our conversation. It's really about what 916 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: are the expectations that you're bringing to the relationship and 917 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: what is it that's realistic that the relationship can deliver. 918 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: And I feel about the monogamy side of things, and 919 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: this I mean both romantic and sexual monogamy, that that 920 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: assumption that all of us, almost everybody has, that that 921 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: that's what marriage is. By the way, that certainly was 922 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: not what marriage always was. Um, anybody who's read the 923 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: Bible knows that that's not the case. But but for 924 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 1: those of us today, you know, we might decide that 925 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: that's absolutely essential. And that's fine. What I regret or 926 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: lament about the way we're thinking about non monogamy is 927 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,919 Speaker 1: it is accepted as a default, and consequently we don't 928 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,880 Speaker 1: have any discussion of how we're going to do it. 929 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: So it's not like we're you know, we're thirty and 930 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 1: we hope to be married for the next sixty years, 931 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: and it's like, boy, that's like a long time to 932 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: be with only one person romantically and sexually. And I 933 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: like flirting, like how are we going to keep this hot? Playful? 934 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: Like how are we going to make this work. I 935 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: just don't think that we're having mature conversations about that 936 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: because we're not having mature conversations about what the alternatives 937 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,399 Speaker 1: might be. And so from my perspective, it is a 938 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: damn big ass to say you will be with nobody 939 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: but me in any romantic or sexual way for the 940 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: next sixty years until death does us part, and and 941 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: so good lots of people should make that ask. I 942 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: have no objection to that ask. Great idea for many people, 943 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: but there should be some sort of follow up thinking 944 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 1: or conversation about how are we going to deliver on that? 945 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: And I wish we had those conversations. Can you expand 946 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: a little bit on in your book you talk about 947 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: the bonds that a lot of marriage that you saw 948 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: that were open, how their bond was sort of like, 949 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: in a lot of instances, closer than some people who 950 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: are monogamous. Yeah. So again, this is one of the 951 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: cool things about being a relationship scientist rather than a speculator, right, Like, 952 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: so this is an interesting question. So let's imagine that 953 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: you're with one person as a primary partner. There are 954 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,799 Speaker 1: obviously other versions of non monogamy than that, but let's 955 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: imagine that you have a primary partner. And we want 956 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: to compare people who are with a primary partner and 957 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: have a consensual nonmonogamy norm of some sort that is 958 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: something other than complete monogamy, and another group of people 959 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: that are again have a primary partner but really it's 960 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: the only partner because you have a strong monogamy norm. Well, look, 961 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: if you're an empiricist, if you're a social scientist, you 962 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: can actually collect data and to what degree are the 963 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: people in group A happier than the people in group 964 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,360 Speaker 1: and and by and large there's no difference. That is, 965 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: by and large if you look at if I'm remembering correctly, 966 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,280 Speaker 1: if you look at intimacy, commitment, and satisfaction, you cannot 967 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,920 Speaker 1: find differences on average between the people who have opted 968 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: into a non monogamy norm versus the people who have 969 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,719 Speaker 1: opted into a non monogamy norm um. And again they're 970 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: reporting on on how committed and satisfied and intimate they 971 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: are with their own relationship with their primary partner. Let 972 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: me just say there are small differences on a couple 973 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,800 Speaker 1: of variables, trust and jealousy. The effects they're not huge effects, 974 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: but they go in the direction that I think is 975 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,840 Speaker 1: not intuitive for most people. That is, people who have 976 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,879 Speaker 1: opted into a consensually non monogamous norm relative to people 977 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: who have opted into a monogamous norm, are a little 978 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: more trusting and a little less jealous. M it's such 979 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: surprising information. I'm like, I'm a person who's monogamous, but 980 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated endlessly my non monogamy too. I'm also fascinated, 981 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it makes sense because the 982 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 1: reason why people don't want to be in that kind 983 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: of dynamic is because they're not trustworthy or because they 984 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: are jealous. Like I don't want an open relationship. I 985 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: don't want my husband or boyfriend fucking other women. I'm 986 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: not without me. You know, perhaps i'd be open to 987 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: like that, but not not. No, I wouldn't be open 988 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 1: to that. You know, it's just not a comfort level 989 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: for me because I would be jealous. Yeah, that's right. 990 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,360 Speaker 1: And it sounds like you again. You you talked earlier 991 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,760 Speaker 1: about how you know you have some hard earned wisdom 992 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: that you've accrued as an adult, and it sounds like 993 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: you have a pretty good sense of where you stand 994 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: on this. But that means that you're in a position 995 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: to have a sophisticated conversation about it, like it could 996 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: come up and you could say, well, these are circumstances 997 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: that I could potentially imagine if they were important to you. 998 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: These other circumstances I don't think will work. I know myself, 999 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: and I tend toward jealousy in those cases, and I 1000 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: don't want to go crazy in this relationship. Like that 1001 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: is a great reason to opt into monogamy. I don't think. 1002 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, just because nobody's ever thought about it 1003 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: or we're not allowed to talk about it, is a 1004 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: great reason to opt into monogamy, right right, exactly. Well, Eli, 1005 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us today. Thank 1006 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,320 Speaker 1: you very fun. Thank you, Eli. Niced to meet you. 1007 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: Die And for those of you listening, the book is 1008 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: called The All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work. 1009 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: This will be good for Joe and me because Joe 1010 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: wants to get married and you know I'm going to 1011 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: have to do that one day, right yeah, And I 1012 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: think it's great even for if you don't get married. 1013 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: It's great for like relationshipship for sure. And also, like 1014 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: I said, you know, patting yourself on the back when 1015 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,280 Speaker 1: you get stuff, right, tell us about your stand up dates. Okay, 1016 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 1: so we added new shows for stand up. I vaccinated 1017 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: in a horny tour which I wanted People's Choice Award 1018 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: for you guys, the best comedy tour. Can you fucking 1019 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: believe that? I can't. I love it. For the people 1020 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,479 Speaker 1: who voted for me, my god, thank you so much. Yeah, 1021 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,360 Speaker 1: we had added second shows in Portland's do we just 1022 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,600 Speaker 1: added second show. I added a show in Mauie, Pittsburgh, Philly, 1023 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: and Los Angeles. So we have a whole slew of 1024 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: shows if you go to Chelsea handler dot com that 1025 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: are already up. We've added a bunch of second shows 1026 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: and we're adding second shows in Kansas City, Mountclair, New Jersey, 1027 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: and Santa Rosa, California. Excellent, that's fantastic. You're all over. 1028 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: I'm all over. I'm coming your way, alright, alrighty, goodbye, byodbye. 1029 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: And if you have a question, or you and a 1030 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,200 Speaker 1: loved one have a question, please write into Dear Chelsea 1031 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: Project at gmail dot com.