1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Came today we're 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: bringing you an episode from the Vault. This one is 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: called Dissolver of Worlds. It originally published on April. I 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: remember being very excited about this one when we recorded it. 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: Uh we we talk a lot about the history of 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the quest for a universal solvent in in alchemy. All right, 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: let's dive right in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 11 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick, and I wanted to start off today 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: by thinking about containers. Um, if you ever look around 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: a chemistry lab, you will notice that there are a 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: lot of containers made out of glass. Glass is often 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: thought of as as the chemist's friend, right, And this 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: is because silica, the stuff that glass is made out of, 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: is generally chemically inert, not much reacts with it, and 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: glass is insoluble in in most solvents, so it's not 19 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: going to be leaching off and contaminating your sample. But 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: this is not true in all cases. For instance, there's 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: a chemical we've talked about on the show before, called 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: hydrofluoric acid, uh, the solution of hydrogen fluoride or HF 23 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: in water. Hydrogen fluoride is known to actually corrode even glass, 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: and there's some pretty good videos of this that you 25 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: can look up, like the YouTube channel called periodic Videos 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: as one you can find where they dissolve a glass 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: light bulb in hydrofluoric acid. I think while it's plugged 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: in by the way, at least when when the glass 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: finally does dissolve and break off in the liquid, the 30 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: the film inside the light bulb, I recall, is like 31 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: sparking in the solution in a in a very weak 32 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: and creepy and cursed way. But it's kind of disturbing 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: to see even glass, the ultimate non reactor, just getting 34 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: sort of cleanly sheared off of the top of a 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: bulb when it's dipped into this this stuff and then 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: falling away and eventually just dissolving into it and becoming 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: a liquid itself. Regular glass, of course, is made of 38 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: silica sand, which is made of silicon dioxide or s 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: I O two, and when you put glass into hydrogen 40 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: fluoride into hydrofluoric acid, the hydrogen fluoride breaks the bonds 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: between silicon and oxygen in silica to form silicon fluorine molecules, 42 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: and the result is the hydrofluoric acid eats right through 43 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: the solid glass. So here you've got this material, this 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: hydrofluoric acid that cannot be stored in regular glass containers, 45 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: has to be stored in special plastic containers or it 46 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: might eat right through the bottle and spill everywhere. And 47 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: this is a jumping off point for today's episode, because 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna be looking at the question of what if 49 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: you were to imagine a material that pushed the boundaries 50 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: even farther, if there was a solvent that that could 51 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: dissolve everything it touched, a sort of universal solvent. M Yeah, 52 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: this reminds me a lot of our discussions in the 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: episode on Hollywood Acid, the the way that acids are 54 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: sometimes presented in science fiction, especially where you know, you 55 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: you wound a xenomorph and it's so it's it's acidic 56 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: blood seems to just burn its way through every floor, 57 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, all the way through the hull of the ship. Yeah, precisely. 58 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: So this will be kind of a follow up episode 59 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: to that. But but going more into the history of 60 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: alchemy and getting into some of the metaphorical realms of 61 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: these these high powered solvents. Now, one thing this immediately 62 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: relates to for me is a thought experiment that I 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: remember encountering from reading some of the American philosopher Daniel 64 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Dennett's books, where um Dinnett often talks about a metaphor 65 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: that he uses called universal acid. It's basically exactly what 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: we're describing here, but he doesn't mean it in the 67 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: pure material sense. Then it uses the metaphor of universal 68 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: acid to describe evolution. Uh. And and what he means 69 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: there is that evolution is a concept that is not 70 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: just a theory in biology. It's not just that when 71 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: we discovered evolution by natural selection we could suddenly explain 72 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: the diversity of species on Earth. That was true, but 73 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: it's also a sort of revolutionizing world view that changes 74 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: everything it touches. And so, to quote from his summary 75 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: of this idea from his book Intuition, Pumps and Other 76 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: Tools for Thinking, din it writes, universal acid is a 77 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: liquid so corrosive that it will eat through anything, but 78 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: what do you keep it in? It dissolves glass bottles 79 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: and stainless steel canisters as readily as paper bags. What 80 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: would happen if you somehow came upon or created a 81 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: dollop of universal acid? Would the whole planet eventually be destroyed? 82 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: What would it leave in its wake after everything had 83 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: been transformed by its encounter with universal acid? What would 84 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: the world look like? Little did I realize that in 85 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: a few years I would encounter an idea, Darwin's idea 86 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: bearing an unmistakable likeness to universal acid. It eats through 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: just about every traditional concept and leaves in its wake 88 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: a revolutionized worldview, with most of the old landmarks still recognizable, 89 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: but transformed in fundamental ways. Now there's a thing here 90 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: where the metaphor I think might not be the best one, 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: because we get Hollywood acid in our brains, and when 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: we think about Hollywood acid, Hollywood acid doesn't just change, 93 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 1: it destroys. Right. You put the Batman in the Hollywood acid, 94 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: and then the Batman is no more. Yeah. I mean 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: a lot of this, though, comes down to what we 96 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: I mean when you talk about things being destroyed. This 97 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: is a very human viewpoint. This is a very um, 98 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: you know, organism based view of things. That the Batman 99 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: is destroyed in the acid, that the the car is 100 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: destroyed in the crash. Uh that or that even something 101 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: is destroyed when it is um you know, when it's 102 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: just you know, a metal or something and it's melted 103 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: or it's uh or it's it's it's it's put into 104 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: some sort of an acid or a base. But you know, 105 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: it comes back to the basic principle that matter can 106 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: neither be uh, you know, ultimately created or destroyed. Everything 107 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,679 Speaker 1: can only be transferred into different states or broken down 108 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: into different components. That's a very good point. Yeah, from 109 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: the sort of like chemical view of the universe, nothing 110 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: has been destroyed. But I think it'd be fair to 111 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: say that if you put a batman in a bunch 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: of sulfuric acid and then you liberate all the possible 113 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: water molecules from him and just leave a bunch of 114 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: elemental carbon, you could say, in some sense the batman 115 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: has been destroyed conceptually at least, yes, But I mean 116 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: part of that is the difficulty of then recreating a batman, right, 117 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: because right, I mean we would have to recreate not 118 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: only the batman's body, but the batman's psyche, and and 119 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, they're huge hurdles, not only in terms of 120 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: of science and our understanding of psychology, but also time. 121 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,119 Speaker 1: It's a huge time investment to try and reproduce another Batman. Right, So, 122 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: so I don't know if maybe he could have used 123 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: a slightly better metaphor for what he means, because what 124 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: I think he means is not that the concept of 125 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: evolution destroys everything it touches in culture, but rather it 126 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: reacts with everything it touches. So it leaves the world 127 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: we knew before populated with the same questions and beauties 128 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: and wonders, but each of them sort of now upgraded 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: by a chemical reaction, each one sort of changed somewhat 130 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: by our new perspective. You have a new scientific way 131 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: of thinking about everything that you knew before. Yeah, you know, 132 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: I think this this argument, it certainly applies to evolution 133 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: very wrongly, uh, but you know, into evolutionary theory, but 134 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: it also can apply to even um hypotheses that we've 135 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: discussed in the show before. You know that take, for instance, 136 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: the bi cameral mind hypothesis by Julian Jaynes. That's an 137 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: example of of of a very infectious idea that once 138 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: you have, if you've really gotten into it. You it 139 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of can change the way you think about so 140 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: many other things. Um. And then there are even less 141 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, controversial ideas you can think of where once 142 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: you have once you were alert to say, um, oh 143 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: just you know, certain sort of psychological ideas about how 144 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: uh you know, how things like trauma work. You know, Uh, 145 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: it changes the way you think about reality because you 146 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: have a different way of processing, uh, what is going 147 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: on or maybe going on with other people and other 148 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: groups and throughout history. Yeah, and the metaphorical sense, I mean, 149 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of ideas I guess can become a mental 150 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: universal solvent. I would say in some cases with more 151 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: use than in other cases, Like sometimes we just start 152 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: applying an idea to everything because it's really fun. And 153 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: in other cases we start applying idea an idea to 154 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: everything because we get we we at least believe we're 155 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: getting some kind of analytical use out of it, like 156 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: it's explaining more than, uh than than other ideas that 157 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: we had previously. Though, I would say, be cautious of 158 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: any lens that seems to explain everything, because you know, 159 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: I've been through phases in my life where I sort 160 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: of like learned a new analytical lens and then it 161 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: explained literally everything in the world, And like, you gotta 162 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: be careful about those. Usually you're probably over applying it 163 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, Like if you if you just 164 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: apply aliens to everything, yeah, and then it works. Uh, 165 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, you're probably over applying aliens. And there was 166 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: actually a sample I hear every now and then in 167 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: a in a track where someone saying, you know, listing 168 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: off all these different things and then saying, you drop 169 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: aliens in the middle of this and everything makes sense. 170 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: U always true. It's always true. So if there's anything 171 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: like that, yeah, you could. You can sub anything for 172 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: aliens if if it feels like it's a perfect fit, 173 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: that it explains everything that it that it absolutely dissolves 174 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: all the mysteries of life. I don't know, it's it's 175 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: probably not the universal solvent you're you're really looking for, 176 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: but it can seem like that. But before we get 177 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: back into the fully metaphorical space, but what it means 178 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: to to think about the world in terms of universal solvents. 179 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: I want to actually consider the real material possibility of 180 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: a universal solvent, especially as it has figured into the 181 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: history of alchemy, because you probably know, even if you 182 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: only have passing familiarity with alchemy, that one of the 183 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: endeavors of of alchemy was this search for these sort 184 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: of dream materials, these holy Grail materials. What an author 185 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to be quoting extensively in this episode, Lawrence 186 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: Prince you pay calls chemical arcana or I guess singular 187 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: chemical ar kanum. Uh. These objects that are sort of 188 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: the mcguffins of alchemy that alchemists were requesting after. So 189 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: one of these things might be like the Philosopher's stone 190 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: that could allow you to transmute base metals into gold 191 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: in the process known as chrysopoeia, or other ones might be. 192 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: Actually I talked about one in an Artifact episode and 193 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: it did not too long ago. Uh. It's an idea 194 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: that you can find going all the way back to 195 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: ancient Roman times, and that's the concept of bindable glass, 196 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: the vitrum flexila or vitrum malle abel that you could 197 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: have glass that could be soft like dough and shaped 198 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 1: into into different you know, into whatever form you needed. 199 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: But another similar arcanum in alchemy was the concept of 200 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: alcahest a, a substance that would act as a universal 201 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: solvent that could break down anything. Now, discussing alchemy is 202 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: always a little bit difficult because alchemy is somewhat controversially 203 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: find like different people try to insist on different historical understanding. 204 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: Is of exactly what alchemy was. I mean, you can't 205 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: say it's a It's the general output of a group 206 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: of certain scholars who, you know, we're kind of secretive 207 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: about their beliefs, and we're working with materials in some way. 208 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a kind of slippery concept. In English, 209 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: the term has been used to refer to a huge 210 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: range of beliefs and behaviors, with special emphasis on things 211 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: done that that sound in some way related to sorcery, 212 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: the hermetic, and the occult, and these associations are absolutely 213 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: not without foundation. Like that they much of alchemy does 214 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: have occult and and and supernatural connections. But another way 215 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: to understand alchemy, for the purpose of today's discussion at least, 216 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: is that it is sort of the proto scientific study 217 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: of the dynamics of matter, particularly concerned with transforming one 218 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: type of matter into another, or of isolating the constituents 219 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: of a material, refining that material, or enhancing its alleged properties, 220 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: many of which were perceived to be medicinal properties. I 221 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: know a lot of people in the modern era when 222 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: they think of alchemy, they think about people trying to 223 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: turn lead into gold. And then then that was a 224 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: preoccupation of some people in the world of alchemy. But 225 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: also a huge part of alchemy was a quest for medicine. Yeah. 226 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: I guess to two points to make here. One is 227 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: that we do often think of that when we think 228 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: of alchemy, we may think of a very Western context, 229 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: and we think of people who look like wizards, you know, 230 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: or even specifically someone who looks like John d or Merlin, Uh, 231 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: toying around with science stuff. You know, alchemy is science 232 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: stuff what wizards do. Uh. But it is also important 233 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: to note that that alchemy and things that we think 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: of in English and uh in the end, in the 235 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: Western world as alchemy, you also find that in the 236 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: in the Arabic world, you find it in in ancient India, 237 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: you find it in ancient China. Uh. You know. So 238 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: alchemy can very broadly speaking be seen as kind of 239 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: a global effort of learned individuals trying to learn more 240 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: about the world. Um. I think one way to think 241 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: of it too. Is think about geographic discovery. You know, 242 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: people setting out on on voyages, trying to find distant 243 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: lands that they know to exist or that they have 244 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: heard to exist. Sometimes those lands do not exist at all. 245 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes they are, you know, islands of the imagination. But 246 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,359 Speaker 1: in the quest to find those places, they find real places, 247 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: and ultimately this leads up to a a more accurate 248 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: and more refined understanding of the world. Own interesting parallel 249 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: between alchemy and your geography. Example, during the ages of exploration, 250 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: where people were trying to get away from their home 251 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: country and figure out what else was out there that 252 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: they could find. They're going to be different levels of 253 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: perspicacity and reporting, you know, because like, whatever you've discovered, 254 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: you may think of this is, oh, this is knowledge 255 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: I want to share with the world, But you may 256 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: also very much think of it as like kind of 257 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: a trade secret or a personal You know, this is 258 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: something I've discovered for me and my my, my buddies, 259 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: and we need to keep this secret and not let 260 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: everybody else get in there before we've had a good 261 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,239 Speaker 1: go at it. Yeah, and then you have the pesky 262 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: situation of discovering the real but keeping it secret or 263 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: only holding on to it because of your quest for 264 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: the unreal. And we've touched on this before on the 265 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: show before um when we were talking about urine at 266 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: some point urine's role in alchemy, and uh, I forget 267 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: that the exact chemical episode we were discussing this. But 268 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: the history of alchemy is full of such scenarios, you know. 269 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: I was reading actually a Washington Post article from January 270 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: eighteen by Ben Guarino that interviews Lawrence Prince you pay, 271 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: one of the one of the authors who's an expert 272 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: on alchemy that we're gonna be talking about in this episode. 273 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: And this article ends up talking a lot about p 274 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: and there was one part I found very fun. It's 275 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: talking about how in prince hips lab he will try 276 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: to recreate some some old alchemy experiments as they are 277 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: described from these these texts, and so the artifacts of 278 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: these experiments are all all around his lab. And and 279 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: the article here describes on the counter sits a large 280 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: jar labeled flim of acidified urine. More than one alchemical 281 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: recipe calls for human p. Prince Ship said. An old 282 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: Arabic text used the phrase the secret is within you, 283 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: probably meaning well reader you go figure it out, and 284 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: then it quotes Prince saying, but some people took that 285 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: more literally, so they ended up using vast amounts of urine. 286 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Oh that's wonderful. Yeah. And and now that I've had 287 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,239 Speaker 1: a second to reflect, it was our our invention episode 288 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: or episodes on the matchtick. Uh yeah, we're we're talking. 289 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: I can't rea. So we talked about multiple people who 290 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: used urine. At least one of the main people who 291 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: was big into it to urine experiments was was the 292 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: seventeenth century alchemist Hinnig Brund who who really specifically wanted 293 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: urine from beer drinkers. So it was like, go to 294 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: the bars, get the drunks to p in a bucket, 295 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: and I will create a huge, a gigantic vat of 296 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: beer drinker p. Yes. Yes, so it was brand He 297 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: was in search of the Philosopher's stone, um, but in 298 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: doing so made these discoveries that ultimately tied into our 299 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: understanding of phosphorus and matches and you know, or matches 300 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: being the one of the the actual real world and 301 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: world inventions to come out of this quest for the fantastic. 302 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: But it's so funny also about like misinterpreting the line 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: the secret is within you two mean like literally in 304 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: your bladder, because that that seems just just perfect for 305 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: the world of alchemy, because there was a lot of 306 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: sort of metaphors and secret keeping, kind of coded language. 307 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: A Prince Pay talks in in one interview was watching 308 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: about how, you know, in some alchemical texts, the author 309 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: will not say the conventional names of the chemicals that 310 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: he's talking about. He might instead of saying nitric acid, 311 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: he will say the red dragon, And instead of saying, um, 312 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, like add nitric acid to this solution, he 313 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: would say something like allow the red dragon to consume 314 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: the white eagle or something. So, you know, it's kind 315 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: of you have to like dig through and figure out 316 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: what all of these code words refer to, not in 317 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: every case, but in many. Yeah, So it it makes 318 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: looking back on some of these recipes and ideas oftentimes confusing, 319 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: because like I'm reminded of of the recipe that I 320 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: looked at once for the creation of a homunculous and 321 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: it has this kind of coded language in it. So 322 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard to determine, you know, how much of 323 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: what you're looking at is just abject occultism and in sorcery. 324 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: And how much is coded material referring to something more 325 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: closely related to to the world of chemistry and reality? 326 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: Oh right, so like is it actually asking for like 327 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: a bat swing or is it or is that a 328 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: code for like saltpeter or something? Yeah, and I guess 329 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: you can. You can look at similar situations throughout our 330 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: you know the world of language and spirituality and all. 331 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: But um, I guess one of the things to drive 332 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: home with with alchemy is that, yes, we're talking about 333 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: ultimately a proto scientific sphere. Uh. You know, this is 334 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: one though, in which scientific considerations are either inherently mingled 335 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: with philosophic and supernatural ideas, or at the very least 336 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: are heavily susceptible to flowing into those subjects. And is 337 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: the author um Mercia Eliade put it in the Forge 338 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: and the Crucible quote Alchemy posed as a sacred science, 339 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: whereas chemistry came into its own when substances had shed 340 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: their sacred attributes. Oh that's interesting, I mean, yeah, One 341 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: thing I we want to talk about as we go 342 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: on is the ways that different uh practitioners of the 343 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: alchemy period didn't they weren't just looking for chemical formulas, 344 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: but they really thought chemicals meant something. Yeah. Yeah, And 345 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: you you can imagine too where this gets. You know, 346 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: we can't look at something without working without you know, 347 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: without our brain beginning to ponder over the possible metaphors there. 348 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: You know, how does this relate to me? Um And 349 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: maybe we're we get we're a little further from that now, 350 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: but you know, we have to sort of put ourselves 351 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: in the mindset of of older uh, you know, experimentors. 352 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: And uh, this is where I want to bring up 353 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: some of the some of the thoughts that Terrence McKenna 354 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: brought to the table concerning alchemy um And and I 355 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: think he I think he made he made some good, 356 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: good points on the topic. He gave a series of 357 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: lectures on alchemy in the late nineties um And touched 358 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: on this. And I want to read a quote from 359 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: it from a transcription. In this he is citing Iliade 360 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: it also putting his own spin on things. Quote. The 361 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: shaman is the brother of the smith. The smith is 362 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: the metallurgist, the worker in metals. And this is where 363 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: alchemy has its roots. We who take this for granted, 364 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: have no idea. How mysterious and powerful this seemed to 365 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: ancient people, and in fact it would seem so to 366 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: us if we had anything to do with it. I mean, 367 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: how many of us are welders or castors of metal. 368 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: It's a magical process to take, for instance, cinnabar, a 369 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: red soft ore, and by the mere act of heating 370 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: it in a furnace, it will sweat liquid mercury onto 371 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: its surface. We have unconsciously imbibed the ontology of science, 372 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: where we have mind firmly separated out from the world. 373 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: We take this for granted. It's effortless because it is 374 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: the ambiance of the civilization that we've been born into. 375 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: But in an earlier age, some writers would say, a 376 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: more naive age. But I wonder about that mind and 377 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: matter were seen to be alloyed together throughout nature, so 378 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: that the sweating of mercury out of cinnabar is not 379 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: a material process. It is a process in which the 380 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: mind and the observations of the metal worker maintain an 381 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: important role. Well, I don't know what to think about 382 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 1: that claim about the idea the role of the mind 383 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: in the transformations, but I think he's absolutely right that 384 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: like you know, it's one of the frustrations of the 385 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: modern world is that we rely so on so much 386 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: um science and technology in the background of our lives 387 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: that we can lose sight of the sheer wonder that 388 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: that is on, you know, visible if you're actually watching 389 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: these processes unfold in firsthand. Yeah. I mean we talk 390 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: about technological metaphors all the time on the show. How 391 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: how often we think about our own cognition in terms 392 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: of computers and cameras and digital recordings and so forth, 393 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: uh and photoshop, etcetera. You know, and and these can 394 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: all be useful, but they can also distort and create 395 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: a a distorted version of what's actually going on inside 396 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: the mind or outside of it. And yeah, I think 397 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: you know, if you were to put yourself in someone 398 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: who day in and day out, was not using an iPhone, 399 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: was not using a PC or a GO or a 400 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 1: Mac or whatever, but was instead, uh working with the 401 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: base materials and with metals and chemicals and trying to 402 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: figure out their properties. Like this would be the primary 403 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: way that they would also think about the mind. I 404 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: mean it it makes perfect sense to me, like these 405 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: would be there, this would be their telephone, their television, 406 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: their computer. These would be the ways that they might 407 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: then self reflect. Well, yeah, I mean it's it's apparent 408 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: that witnessing chemical reactions suggested to people some kind of deep, 409 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: underlying spiritual reality that was like more than just uh 410 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: an idea about like different types of atoms and how 411 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: they can fit together, but suggested like like big truth. 412 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: So that applied to everything, you know, that that alchemy could, 413 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: in its own way, become a one of these metaphorical 414 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: universal solvents that it explains everything about about God and 415 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: the universe and humankind in our minds. Now, since I 416 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: did mention McKenna, one might easily say, well, for Terence McKenna, 417 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: surely mushrooms psychedelics were kind of the universal solvent. And yeah, 418 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: I can certainly that can you can certainly make a 419 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: case for that, especially within certain works of his you know, 420 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: the Food of the Gods, etcetera. Um, that's kind of 421 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: a case where you can say, oh, you drop mushrooms 422 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of this and everything makes sense. Um. Oh, 423 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: did he suggest that Paracelsis took mushrooms? Uh? No, Actually 424 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: he in these lectures, he he really took quite the 425 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: opposite approach and that's why I want to share one more, uh, 426 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: snippet from from this lengthy lecture series, which by the way, 427 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: you can find online um in several places, either in 428 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, audio form or transcribed. But this is what 429 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: he had to say. Quote. I will not claim and 430 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: do not in fact think it is so that there 431 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: was anything of eartly psychedelic in the sense of pharmacologically 432 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: based about alchemy. When we look back through the alchemical literature, 433 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: there's very little evidence that it was far pharmacologically driven. 434 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: Only when you get to the very last adambirations of 435 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: out of the alchemical impulse in someone like Paracelsus, do 436 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: you get use of opium. It is interesting that the 437 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: great drugs of modern society were accidentally discovered by alchemist 438 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: in their research distilled alcohol as a product of alchemical work. 439 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: And as I mentioned, opium was very heavily used of 440 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: the Paracelsian school. But what they possessed was an ability 441 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: to liquefy their mental categories and then to project the 442 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: contents of the mind onto these processes and read them back. Now, um, 443 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: real quick, uh, Paracelsus, We'll we'll get back to Paracelsus 444 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: in a bit, But this is an individual of fourteen 445 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: nine three or fourteen ninety four through fifteen forty one, 446 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: a Swiss physician and alchemist of the German Renaissance, and 447 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: he made a number of contributions to modern met iCal science. 448 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: And he's come up before on the show. I think 449 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: in our episodes on the Trident, on dangerous foods, on Frankenstein, 450 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: and on blood drinking, which I guess are all areas 451 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: where you might well imagine that the realms of chemistry 452 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: and UH and alchemy might come together to some degree. Yeah, 453 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: Paracelsus is considered one of the sort of granddaddy's of alchemy. 454 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: Um Paracelsis is his nickname. By the way, it's worth 455 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: mentioning his real name, which was Philippus Areolas, the Ephrastus 456 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: Bombastus von Hohenheim. I like that Bombastus. Yeah, I think 457 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: there's some question about whether the word bombastic comes from 458 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: his name, because he he would throw down like Paracelsis 459 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: would get into it. In fact, I want to read 460 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: a a passage from a book that that I'm going 461 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: to be referring to for the rest of the episode, 462 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: that is by Lawrence imprincepe called The Secrets of Alchemy 463 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: that was published in by the University of Chicago Press. 464 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: Uh Princeps professor at Johns Hopkins University, specializing in the 465 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: history of science and technology, and he's written a ton 466 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: about alchemy and its role in the development of science. 467 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: But um, there's a passage from his book where he 468 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: briefly introduces the figure of Paracelsus, and he does it 469 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: like this. He says, Paracelsis spent much of his life 470 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: wandering from town to town, generally stirring up trouble wherever 471 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: he went with his iconoclastic and quick tempered ways. It 472 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: has been claimed erroneously that the word bombastic in the 473 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: sense of pampas speech derives from his name. Okay, so 474 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: that was he's saying. No, that is not where it 475 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: comes from. But I have encountered that erroneous claim. Prince 476 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: pay goes on. Paracelsis is best known as a vociferous 477 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: critic of traditional medicine. His writings, frequently imitated in style 478 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: by later followers, are filled with vitriolic and sarcastic condemnations 479 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: of physicians, apothecaries, and the entire medical establishment. It is 480 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: reported that he publicly burned the medical where Things of 481 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: Ibben Sinah, standard texts for medical education at the time, 482 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: as a sign of his contempt. Paracelsis's other provocative habits 483 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: included lecturing for the short time he gave medical lectures 484 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: in Basle and writing in his native Swiss German rather 485 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: than Latin, and promoting the use of German medicinal plants 486 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: over more established classical Mediterranean ones. He was a strong 487 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: advocate of alchimia, but only as one of the pillars 488 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: of medicine, that is to say, for its ability to 489 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: prepare pharmaceuticals and to explain bodily functions. He showed no 490 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: interest in chrisopoeia and occasionally wrote contemptuously of it, and again, 491 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: chrisopoeia is the is the attempt to transmute base metals 492 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: into gold. It's interesting, all these are our attributes of 493 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: someone who very much wanted to dissolve the rigidity of 494 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: the of of the establishment. You know, you could you 495 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: could look at them acting as a kind of trying 496 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: to act as a kind of universal solvent within their 497 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: own culture. Thank yeah, And I guess that should bring 498 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: us to the concept of the universal solvent itself, because 499 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: Paracelsis wrote of something called alcohest, but Paracelsis meant something 500 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: different by it. Paracelsis wrote of alcohest as a type 501 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: of medicine for treating a bad liver. But in the 502 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: wake of Paracelsis, some later alchemists would take the idea 503 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: of alcohest as a universal solvent and really run with it. Now, 504 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: Remember again, as I said earlier, alchemy is often concerned 505 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: with the search for these particular chemical arcana in princeps terms. 506 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: So again, this might be a method for transmuting base 507 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: metals into gold, doing the process of chrisopoeia. Uh. It 508 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: turns out that this is despite the fact that some 509 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: people are still trying to do this today. This is 510 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: not really possible by conventional chemical means, Like gold as 511 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: as we have it here on Earth is forged. It's 512 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: it's a product of nucleosynthesis that occurs in some of 513 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: the most violent phenomena in the universe, like neutron star 514 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: collisions or exploding you know, stars at the end of 515 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: their lifespan. Uh. Like, you can't turn lead into gold. 516 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: That is just not a human power, I guess, unless 517 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: you're talking maybe about I don't know, like like tiny 518 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: amounts of it in particle colliders or something, you know, 519 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: atomic experiments that accelerate protons to extremely high speeds and 520 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: collide with things. And even in that case, I'm not sure. 521 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: I just can't rule it out there by conventional chemical means, 522 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: if you're talking about significant amounts of matter, you cannot 523 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: turn base metals into gold. That would require rearranging the 524 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: nucleus of an atom, which we just don't have the 525 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: power to do, right. And maybe if you were John 526 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: d and you could actually, um, you know, if you 527 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: were actually going to capture or utilize an angel and 528 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: you could somehow tap into their powers there they're just 529 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: like base energy level, then okay, maybe maybe would be possible, 530 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: But but not without any like additional supernatural add ons 531 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: to the chemical understanding that we have. Right. And so 532 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: while the transmutation of base metals like lead into gold 533 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: is probably the best known quest of alchemy, Prince Pay 534 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: writes a lot about how alchemy was so much bigger 535 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: than that it. Alchemy was not just the greedy gold 536 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: slog of people who had you know, Mida's brain, uh like, 537 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: it was generally the study of chemical change, and the 538 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: study of chemical change is a really important and fascinating 539 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: subject that helps you understand sort of unlocks all of 540 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: the other physical sciences. I already mentioned the idea of 541 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: of recipes for bendable glass. I think this is a 542 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: much more obscure one, but I just bring it up 543 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: because I did an episode on it. A big part 544 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: of alchemy, as we've already mentioned, was concerned with refining 545 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: and improving medicines. But of course another holy grail of 546 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: alchemy was the universal solvent alcohest. And so the place 547 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: where alcohest really comes into the picture is in work 548 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: of the influential Flemish chemist and physician Jean Baptista van Helmont, 549 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: who lived fifteen seventy nine to sixteen forty four. Uh, 550 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: and of van Helmont is responsible for has more of 551 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: a legacy than you might expect. Van Helmont is responsible 552 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: for coining the English word gas. Uh. He was one 553 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: of the first people, maybe the first, to identify a 554 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: gas other than general air, when he differentiated carbon dioxide 555 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: as a distinct form of matter from the rest of 556 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: the gas in the atmosphere. Apparently, the word gas that 557 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: he coined comes from the Greek word chaos. Now, Prince 558 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: Bay writes that van Helmont is the is the origin 559 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: of this search for alcohest as the as the universal solvent, 560 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: but notes that Paracelsus, as I already said, had used 561 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: the word alcohest previously, and this was again for a 562 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: very special medicine for the liver. But Van Helmont would 563 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: take that word alcohest and start using it to describe 564 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: a hypothetical substance that would be able to dissolve any 565 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: other substance, the universal solvent. And apparently a Paracelsus had 566 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: a similar idea for a universal solvent that would have 567 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: been a material called circulated salt or cell circulatum um. 568 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: But but for van Helmont, alcohest became not just something 569 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: that you wanted to be able to make, but something 570 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: that was fundamental in understanding the very nature of matter. 571 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: Because Van Helmont held a fascinating and mostly wrong but 572 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: maybe not entirely wrong, at least sort of in the 573 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: direction of being right in some interesting ways, a view 574 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: of matter that had these qualities, and it brought in 575 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: ideas from medicine and theology and previous studies of chemicals. 576 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: But the idea was that Van Helmont believed basically everything 577 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: is made of water, that water is quote the base 578 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: material substratum of all substances. You drop water in the 579 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: middle of this and everything makes sense very good. Um. 580 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: So this was a departure from previous ideas about the 581 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: constituents of matter. Again, Paracelsus had written about something called 582 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: the tria prima, which means the three primary things. And 583 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: Paracelsus he did not originate this idea fully either. He 584 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: was building upon the pre existing chemical knowledge, mostly passed 585 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: down from Arabic scholars who had written that some metals 586 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: and minerals could really be reduced to fundamental constituents, which 587 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: were mercury and sulfur. Uh. This was not correct, but 588 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: it did show a tendency of thinking that was scientifically useful, 589 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: which was the idea that matter could be decomposed into 590 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: its constituent parts, different chemical parts that would come together 591 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: to make molecules of familiar substances, which is very true 592 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: and the basis of what would become the real science. 593 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: It's of chemistry. And so Paracelsus is picking up on 594 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: this idea. Uh. And he concluded that it was not 595 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: just that some metals and minerals were could be broken 596 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: down into mercury and sulfur. He concluded that basically all 597 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: material could be broken down into three things mercury, sulfur, 598 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: and salt. Again factually wrong but a a but trending 599 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: in a useful direction in terms of ways of thinking 600 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: about matter. Yeah, kind of coming back into what we're 601 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: talking about with destruction, Like if you were to destroy anything, 602 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: what would remain? What are the things that make up 603 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: the whole? Sure? Uh? And I actually wanted to go 604 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: into a brief digression on paracelsus is mingling of theological, 605 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: metaphysical and protoscientific thinking from a paragraph in prince Ship 606 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: base book that that I found really interesting. So in 607 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: writing about Paracelsus is idea of the Tria prima prince 608 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: ship A writes quote. These three chemical principles provided a 609 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: terrestrial material trinity that reflected the celestial immaterial trinity as 610 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: well as the human triune nature of body, soul, and spirit. Further, 611 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: Paracelsus endeavored to generate an entire world system embracing the 612 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: whole of theology and natural philosophy as an alternative to 613 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: and he no doubt hoped ultimately a substitute for prevailing 614 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: contemporaneous systems. For him, chemical processes provided the fundamental model 615 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 1: for explaining natural processes in the physical universe as well 616 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: as within the human body. For example, the cycle of 617 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: rain through sea, air, and land was for Paracelsus a 618 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: great cosmic distillation the formation of minerals underground, the growth 619 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: of plants, the generation of life forms, as well as 620 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: the bodily functions of digestion, nutrition, respiration, and excretion, where 621 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: for him inherently chemical processes, God himself is the master chemist. 622 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: His creation of an ordered world out of primordial chaos 623 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: was akin to the chemist's extraction, purification, and elaboration of 624 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: common materials into chemical products, and his final judgment of 625 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: the world by fire, like a chemist using fire to 626 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 1: purge impurities from precious metals. Paracelsis system has been called 627 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: a chemical world view, and it proved remarkably influential in 628 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: succeeding generations. So for Paracelsis, not only did he inspire 629 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: the later search for a literal universal solvent that we're 630 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: going to be talking about, but it seems very much 631 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: again in the metaphorical in the mind space alchemy was 632 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: his universal solvent. It it explained everything. I remember. Van 633 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: Helmont would go on to break with Paracelsus in believing 634 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: that matter could be reduced beyond the Tria prima ultimately 635 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: always down to what it was made of at bottom, 636 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: which was water. So why would Van Helmont think that 637 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: ultimately everything was made of water? Well, his reasoning was 638 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: partly theological. Part of it was the primacy of water 639 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: in the Genesis account of creation. Uh. And this also 640 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: calls to mind how in the recent Nile episode we 641 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: discussed the prominence of water, not just in the Biblical 642 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: creation story, but it's probably at least in the estimation 643 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: of the scholar David Leming, the single most common theme 644 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: in creation narratives around the world, if you like, compare 645 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: all of the world's religions creation myths. He says, the 646 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: thing that is in the most of them is water, 647 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, primordial cosmic oceans. Yeah yeah. And then oftentimes, 648 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: like we discussed in that episode, we even would think 649 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: of the cosmos as ocean. Uh yeah, So, I mean 650 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: you would if it's not in the beginning there's some 651 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: void or some just empty space of darkness, which I 652 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,959 Speaker 1: guess to a large point, you could be a large 653 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: part point you could say is derived from our modern 654 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: popular understanding of of what outer space is. They've never 655 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,959 Speaker 1: been to space. They don't know what space was. Yeah, 656 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: the vast emptiness was the ocean, that was the that 657 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: was the vast mystery, the vast primordial body. But it 658 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: wasn't just these theological influences. Van Helmont also based this 659 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: belief in the material primacy of water on physical experiments 660 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: that he conducted in the lab. So here's an example, 661 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: as described by Principe. In Van Helmont's most famous experiment, 662 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: he planted a willow tree sapling that he had weighed beforehand. 663 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: The willow tree was five pounds, and he planted it 664 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: in a container with two hundred pounds of soil. Then 665 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: he watered the tree for five years, and at the 666 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: end of five years, the tree had grown from five 667 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: pounds to a hundred and sixty nine pounds. It had 668 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: gained about thirty three or thirty four times its original weight. 669 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: But he also measured the soil that the tree had 670 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: been planted in, and he discovered that the soil weighed 671 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,720 Speaker 1: almost exactly the same as it did when he planted it. Thus, 672 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: and Helmont concluded that water alone had been transformed into 673 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: all of the substances that make up the tree, the wood, 674 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: the leaves. This is all just water that has been 675 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: somehow transformed into higher forms of water, more solid forms 676 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: of water. And in a way he was he was 677 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: partially correct. I mean, much of the bodies of living 678 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: organisms is made of water. Uh. But also without understanding 679 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: the science of photosynthesis, Van Helmont didn't realize that the 680 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: carbon content of the tree, which is the bulk of 681 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: its nonwater weight, was actually from carbon dioxide from the air, 682 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: which is absorbed from the atmosphere by the leaves, and 683 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 1: then a chemical reaction powered by energy from the sunlight 684 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: breaks apart the CEO two so that it can be 685 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: used to make these carbon molecules that the tree needs 686 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: to make its body. Again, we've talked about this on 687 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: the show a million times, but it's one of the 688 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 1: most astounding facts that you know, trees are made out 689 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: of air. But without this knowledge of photochemistry and botany, 690 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: it was somewhat reasonable for for Van Helmont to believe 691 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: that what had gone into the tree was simply what 692 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: he had put into it, which was water. That's the 693 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: only thing he'd added to it. So how did this 694 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,959 Speaker 1: system of this this protean water based matter work well? 695 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,879 Speaker 1: To read a section from from Prince Pay describing Van 696 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: Helmont's thinking quote, the various transformations of water, he argued, 697 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: are managed by semina or seeds capable of organizing water 698 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: into other substances. Most materials can be turned back into 699 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: primordial water through heating and cold, thus establishing a continuous 700 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 1: cycle of creation and destruction. Fire destroys substances by turning 701 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: them into gas again, a word Van Helmont coined from chaos, 702 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: a non condensable substance more subtle than any. Vapor gas 703 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: rises to the upper parts of the atmosphere, where, exposed 704 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: to extreme cold, it returns to elemental water that falls 705 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: with the rain. The alcohest performs this return to water 706 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: more quickly and usefully, so it base. Everything is made 707 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: of water, and we're just seeing different forms of water. 708 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: And if you get something really hot in a fire, 709 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: it will transform. It will transform not only into liquid water, 710 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: but sort of beyond this point into a gas that 711 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: floats up into the atmosphere. Then when it's up in 712 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, it cools down, turns back into liquid water 713 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: and falls as rain, So it's sort of water to water, 714 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: wet to wet worldview. And then the alcohest comes in 715 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: as a universal solvent because it seems to serve the 716 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,959 Speaker 1: function of reducing all matter back down to the state 717 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: of liquid water without degrading it in the process. So, 718 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: according to Van Helmont, if you were to heat a 719 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: substance mingled with alcohest, it will first be reduced to 720 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: its proximate ingredients. These would be sort of the middle 721 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: constitut wins right before you get all the way to water. 722 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: It will break down into some other things first, and 723 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,240 Speaker 1: these would be comparable to Paracelsis idea of the Tria prima. 724 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: But then further heating with alcohest will reduce even these 725 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 1: proximate ingredients to the ultimate base material, which is water. 726 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 1: So from Van Helmont's point of view, the alcohest was 727 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: was not a chemical arcanum because it would turn your 728 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: lead into gold and make you rich. It was actually 729 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: desirable as the ultimate research tool. Alcohest would have been 730 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,760 Speaker 1: the ultimate implement for studying what every type of matter 731 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 1: is made of. And there's a there's a sentence from 732 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: Van Helmont quoted in print based book, where he writes, 733 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: there is no more certain genus of acquiring knowledge than 734 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: when one knows what is contained in a thing and 735 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: how much of it there is. So how would you 736 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: do this? Well? Van Helmont thought that if you could 737 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: stop the reaction between alcohest and the material in question 738 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: at just the right time, and then distill the alcohest 739 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: to remove it, you would be left with what was 740 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: called the first essence, or the ins prem um, and 741 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: this ins prem um would be there in the container 742 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,399 Speaker 1: left behind as a kind of crystall in salt. And 743 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: so you could make better medicines this way, for instance, 744 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: because the this ins prem um would have the medicinal 745 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: powers of whatever substance that you had been working on, 746 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: but it would remove all of the toxic or noxious 747 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: uh sort of side effects and impurities that could be 748 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: caused by the original medicinal thing. And thus, in Van 749 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: Helmont's view, the alcohest was a tool for research. It 750 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: was a tool for what was called chemi atria, or 751 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: the development of medicines through chemistry. Now, Van Helmont claimed 752 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: that he had been able to make alcohest. He's like, 753 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: I figured it out. I know how to do it, 754 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: I can prepare it. But he never revealed his secret recipe, 755 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: and many other scholars struggled in vain to discover Van 756 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: Helmont's formula of for the universal solvent. Uh. Some at 757 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: various points believed they had found it. For example, Prince 758 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: sites a laboratory notebook entry by the seventeenth century Colonial 759 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: American alchemist George Starkey, who wrote quote at Bristol on 760 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: twentieth March sixteen fifty six, God revealed to me the 761 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: whole secret of the liquor alcohest let eternal blessing, honor 762 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: and glory be to him. So I'm not sure exactly 763 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: what he discovered, but I do not think it was 764 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: a real universal solvent. I like that it's described as 765 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: the liquor alcohest Like imagine if alcohest was a liquor, 766 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: would it be impossible to make a cocktail with it? 767 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: Would it always like break the cocktail back down into 768 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: its uh it's primary ingredients? You probably wouldn't want to 769 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: drink it. Yeah, do you would just melt? You just 770 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: become water? Right, I always wanted to be water. It's 771 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,839 Speaker 1: the ultimate in refreshment though. Right, that's good marketing. Now, 772 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 1: I was looking at another book by Lawrence Prince about 773 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: alchemy called The Transmutations of Chemists Tree, and this is 774 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: chemistry spelled with a an intentionally archaic spelling c h 775 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: Y M I S t r Y, which is UH 776 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,399 Speaker 1: to distinguish it from the modern science of chemistry. UH. 777 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: This was published in by University of Chicago Press, and 778 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: in this case UH princepe is discussing the efforts of 779 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: alchemists like Jan von Helmont to perform chemical analysis of 780 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: materials such as the bodies of plants. Where the idea was, yeah, 781 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: you can use fire to break materials down into their 782 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: constituent parts. But the problem is that fire, while it 783 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: will decompose the materials into the approximate constituents, fire was 784 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: deceitful as it would corrupt to those constituents in the process. 785 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,800 Speaker 1: And of course the solution was alcahast, which could break 786 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: things down without corrupting them in the process. And there's 787 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: a part here where alcohost is referred to as better 788 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: than fire. It is the fire of Gehenna, which that's 789 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: a biblical metaphor. It's a metaphor for igno many as 790 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: destruction that is used in the Bible. That is often 791 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: a little little Bible interpretation note, often translated into English 792 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: Bibles as hell. Uh. The previous show guest bart Erman, 793 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: who's a secular Bible historian. He explains that this translation 794 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,800 Speaker 1: is actually really misleading. It's actually reading later theology about 795 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: the afterlife into the original text. Uh. And he argues 796 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 1: that Gehenna in the original text is not supposed to 797 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: refer to a place of eternal suffering afterlife, but in 798 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: fact it was a real place. It is basically a 799 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: desolate valley that was um It was historically associated with 800 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: human sacrifice, and so, according to Irman, being sent to Gehenna, 801 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,919 Speaker 1: as is often discussed in the New Testament, has nothing 802 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: to do with an afterlife of eternal suffering, but rather 803 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: as a sort of it's a squalid and unceremonious annihilation. 804 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: It's sort of equivalent to telling somebody that they're going 805 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: to die and be thrown into a garbage dump. Not 806 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: nice ide way, but but somewhat different than the idea 807 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: of everlasting suffering in hell. Yeah. So, ultimately, if you're 808 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: putting a garbage dump, and I guess in the right conditions, 809 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: you are going to break down and become a part 810 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: of the natural world again, get to become your tree 811 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: a prima and then and then water. I guess, yeah, 812 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 1: But in Gehanna, it sounds like it would have been 813 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 1: we know, it wouldn't be like a modern garbage dump. 814 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: It would be a place where you break down or 815 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: probably partially consumed by scavenging beasts that you know, ultimately, uh, 816 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, pretty cushy. Anyway, that that was just a 817 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: Bible nerd side note, so it probably doesn't figure in 818 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: here because I would guess Van Helmont is is referring 819 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: to the supernatural hell interpretation. So alcahest is much better 820 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: than earthly fire. It's like a holy supernatural fire. But 821 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: again Van Helmont writes about how the alcahest could decompose 822 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,720 Speaker 1: matter into its tree a prima or its constituent parts 823 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 1: and then eventually back into water with no compromise or 824 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: destruction of the pretties along the way, and uh, and 825 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,439 Speaker 1: Principa writes about how, again we mentioned earlier, this could 826 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: be used to make better medicines, and in this section 827 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,359 Speaker 1: he actually mentions what a couple of these medicines would 828 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: have been. Quote Van Helmont describes several pharmaceuticals he claims 829 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: to have prepared using the alcohest, most notably a cure 830 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,720 Speaker 1: for kidney and bladderstones made from a mineral he calls lutus, 831 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: and an elixir of life prepared from Lebanon cedar. Would 832 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: the only obstacle in this glorious royal road for chemistry 833 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: was that no one knew how to prepare Van Helmont's alcohest. 834 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,640 Speaker 1: I guess the obvious is is the is the truth 835 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,880 Speaker 1: that if the alcahest was possible, if there was a 836 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: universal solvent to be found, then surely modern chemistry would 837 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: have found it in the wake of alchemy. Yeah, and 838 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 1: so here we revealed that there are several flaw as 839 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,080 Speaker 1: to the fundamental assumptions on which the the Alcohest was based. 840 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing is that Van Helmont's conception of 841 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: all material ultimately being based on water is not true. 842 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,160 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that modern chemistry is is without 843 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: some really exceptional, exquisite dissolvers that will maybe while maybe 844 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 1: not being universal solvents, will break down lots of stuff, 845 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: a shocking amount of stuff. Uh so a couple that 846 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: are worth mentioning. One I wanted to talk about is 847 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: the chemical known as aqua regia, which the name literally 848 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,319 Speaker 1: means royal water in Latin. It's made with one part 849 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: nitric acid and three parts hydrochloric acid. It is extremely corrosive. 850 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,399 Speaker 1: It's a liquid with a reddish orange color that can 851 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: not only cause severe burns if you touch it, it 852 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: can literally dissolve otherwise nonreactive metals like gold and platinum. 853 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,400 Speaker 1: Aqua Regia briefly came up in our episode on heavy Water, 854 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: I think because we were talking about the historical anecdote 855 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: where the chemists George to Heavish had to h had 856 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,720 Speaker 1: had to quickly find a way to hide the Nobel 857 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: Prize medals, which I think we're made of gold in 858 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,799 Speaker 1: the laboratory of Nils Bore when the laboratory was being 859 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,759 Speaker 1: captured and searched by the Nazis, and he ended up 860 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: dissolving the metals in Aqua regia to prevent them from 861 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:26,359 Speaker 1: being found out. So Aqua Regia sounds refreshing. Is not refreshing, though, 862 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: do not buy a bottle of it at your local 863 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,399 Speaker 1: convenience store. Not a good Lacroix flavor, maybe better than 864 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,280 Speaker 1: coconut oh I love coconut. Coconut Coconut's a good lacroise 865 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,279 Speaker 1: you do for me at least at the beach, and 866 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: as long as it's cold. But if it warms up 867 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: and I'm not at the beach, then uh yeah, it's 868 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 1: certainly both of those are true. Then yeah, I don't 869 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: want any part of it. I'm a picky so I. I 870 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: I do love the soda waters, I like the lacroise. 871 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 1: I like most flavors, uh and and I like real 872 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: coconut stuff, but the coconut lacroix. Something about it. It's like, 873 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: for me, it's like drinking sunscreen. Something's wrong. I think 874 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: maybe that's why I like it, because it kind of 875 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,799 Speaker 1: tastes like what sunscreen historically smelled like. And so it's 876 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: like it's like drinking the the you know, the alchemical 877 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,840 Speaker 1: truth of the beach um while at the beach. So 878 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: I can go on even better on these uh, these dissolvers. 879 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: There's one thing I've been reading about called Piranha solution. 880 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: This is this is a class of industrial and laboratory 881 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: grade cleaning solutions colloquially known as Piranha solutions. And you 882 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,320 Speaker 1: can guess how they got their name. They are typically 883 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 1: used as a ruthless and very dangerous way to strip 884 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: all residue of organic molecules from a container, surface, or substrate. Now, 885 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting that it has it is it is getting closer. 886 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,520 Speaker 1: It sounds like to what we think of as as 887 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:58,080 Speaker 1: Hollywood acid, but in doing so, it invokes Hollywood piranhas. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 888 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 1: So it's making you think of what's the James Bond 889 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: movie where you only live twice? Right with the bridge 890 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: that goes over the piranhas. And if you like, that's 891 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 1: your bad performance review means that your fish food. Yeah, 892 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,719 Speaker 1: that's the one with Donald pleasants is blowfeld. So a 893 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,880 Speaker 1: common formulation of Piranha solutions extremely dangerous material would be 894 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: three parts sulfuric acid or H two S O four 895 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,880 Speaker 1: and one part hydrogen peroxide, which is H two O two. 896 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: Piranha solution is from everything I read, extremely temperamental. Mixing 897 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: the elements in the wrong order, or in the wrong ratio, 898 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: or in the presence of the wrong contaminants can immediately 899 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,719 Speaker 1: lead to explosions. It seems like there are just lots 900 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,879 Speaker 1: of ways that using it can lead to explosions. More 901 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 1: on that in a bit, so I was trying to 902 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,319 Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, how exactly does this stuff work? Um, 903 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,240 Speaker 1: there was a helpful podcast episode I found. The Royal 904 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: Society of Chemistry has a podcast called Chemistry and Its Element, 905 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: though sometimes I see it referred to just as the 906 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:03,360 Speaker 1: Chemistry World podcast. Chemistry World is their magazine, their publication. 907 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,920 Speaker 1: But this podcast episode was hosted by Sam Tracy, and 908 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,800 Speaker 1: it's about Piranha solution, and I appreciated the way Tracy 909 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,439 Speaker 1: explained what the solution does at the molecular level. First 910 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,239 Speaker 1: of all, I wanted to point out Tracy notes that 911 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: it's not just named Piranha Solution for its ability to 912 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 1: to dissolve all organic matter that it comes into contact with, 913 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: but perhaps also for its tendency to boil vigorously when 914 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 1: it's in the presence of organic matter. So like in 915 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: that scene and you only live twice where the piranhas 916 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: started attacking somebody, it looks like the water has been 917 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: put on the boilers, bubbles everywhere. Yeah, almost as if 918 00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: um a a bubbling mechanism was placed underwater to create 919 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: the illusion of a horde of piranhas um, you know, 920 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: tearing something apart in movie fashion. Actually, here's something I 921 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: want to see. Uh, answer this question if you were 922 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,800 Speaker 1: actually attacked by a school of piranhas. I don't know 923 00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: if they even swarm like that in reality, I kind 924 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 1: of doubt it. But if you were, would it would 925 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: it would the water boil like that? Or would it 926 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,759 Speaker 1: look very calm on the surface. Well, I think we 927 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: should answer this question into an episode on piranhas. I 928 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,359 Speaker 1: don't know that i've i've ever we've ever devoted an 929 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: episode to piranhas. So let's let's come back to it. 930 00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 1: They're they're beautiful fish. Okay, So how does it work? Well? 931 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,280 Speaker 1: Paranha solution again, as I mentioned as two main ingredients, 932 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,120 Speaker 1: has sulfuric acid H two S O four and hydrogen 933 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: peroxide H two O two. So if you imagine a 934 00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:31,239 Speaker 1: glass container with organic residue of glucose sugar stuck to 935 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: the inside, uh, and imagine this is exposed to a 936 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,840 Speaker 1: Piranha solution for cleaning. Each of the two ingredients plays 937 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 1: a different role in cleaning the sugar away. So sugar, 938 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 1: of course, is an organic molecule. It's a carbohydrate molecule 939 00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: with the formulas C six H twelve O six at 940 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: least that's glucose. Different types of sugar of different chemical compositions, 941 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: but it's got carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and when exposed 942 00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,879 Speaker 1: to concentrated sulfuric acid, this acid acts as an aggressive 943 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: dehydrating agent, so it will chemically react to remove water 944 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,960 Speaker 1: molecules as much as it can, So the sugar molecules 945 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,600 Speaker 1: will get broken apart, and the sugar will lose hydrogen 946 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,520 Speaker 1: and oxygen atoms in the form of water vapor H 947 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,480 Speaker 1: two O. And So if you have a molecule like 948 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,759 Speaker 1: sugar that's based on carbon, hydrogen and oxygen and you're 949 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,319 Speaker 1: rapidly pulling hydrogen and oxygen off of it, what are 950 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: you going to have left over a lot of carbon? 951 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,400 Speaker 1: So if you've ever seen this experiment where you douse 952 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,600 Speaker 1: sugar and sulfuric acid, there there are a lot of 953 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,000 Speaker 1: videos you can look up online. Um, usually you will 954 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,759 Speaker 1: have like a beaker with a bunch of sugar in it. 955 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,440 Speaker 1: Somebody douses it and sulfuric acid and then stirs it 956 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,520 Speaker 1: up with a glass pipette. Uh, the sugar will first 957 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,359 Speaker 1: turn brown and then black and then give off all 958 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,759 Speaker 1: of these fumes. I think it's giving off both water 959 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,400 Speaker 1: vapor and noxious fumes of sulfur dioxide. So you shouldn't 960 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: do this experiment without you know, supervision of somebody who 961 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,640 Speaker 1: knows what they're doing, because it gets very hot and 962 00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: it puts off these fumes. It can be dangerous potentially. 963 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,239 Speaker 1: But but what eventually ends up happening is that the 964 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 1: carbon residue that's left over from the reaction of the 965 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,880 Speaker 1: acid with the sugar, this carbon residue will start to 966 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 1: climb out of the beaker in a looming column like 967 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,200 Speaker 1: a giant tube worm or snake that is made out 968 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,360 Speaker 1: of charred soit uh And you can find a whole 969 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: genre of carbon snake pictures online from demonstrations of this reaction. 970 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,200 Speaker 1: They're pretty great. Yeah, they can be quite impressive. Yeah, 971 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 1: all praise be to the carbon snakes. But Sam Tracy 972 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 1: in in this podcast, I was talking about mentions that 973 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: the role of sulfuric acid is twofold quote. It's acidity 974 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,400 Speaker 1: catalyzes the reaction and being a hygroscopic substance, it combines 975 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: with the water, releasing a great quantity of heat, meaning 976 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 1: the reaction cannot go in the reverse direction and can 977 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,880 Speaker 1: only proceed to completion. But of course this alone would 978 00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,600 Speaker 1: not make a cleaning agent because sulfuric acid alone would 979 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 1: tend to simply eat up organic molecules, strip them of 980 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,400 Speaker 1: what water can be pulled out of them, and leave 981 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: a ton of black elemental carbon in its wake. And 982 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,080 Speaker 1: that is not clean. Like, you don't want black elemental 983 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: carbon stuck to your glass surfaces or your electronics or 984 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: your you know, your wafer chips, whatever whatever it is 985 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to clean. So this is where the hydrogen 986 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: peroxide comes in. Hydrogen peroxide serves to eat away the 987 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 1: remaining carbon byproduct that would have been left over from 988 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:31,920 Speaker 1: the acids attack on the carbohydrate. Uh So, hydrogen peroxide 989 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,160 Speaker 1: H two O two will react with the elemental carbon 990 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,760 Speaker 1: by donating oxygen atoms to the carbon, which combined to 991 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: produce carbon dioxide gas, which floats away in the air, 992 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:47,520 Speaker 1: eventually leaving your substrate clean of all organic material. So hypothetically, 993 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,280 Speaker 1: you you have and again i'm not advising to do this, 994 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,320 Speaker 1: it's extremely dangerous, but what would happen is you have 995 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,280 Speaker 1: a glass container or an electronics part, whatever it is 996 00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,320 Speaker 1: you're trying to clean off. It's got a little bit 997 00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,440 Speaker 1: of organic MATERI areal on it, maybe some sugar or 998 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: some other kind of carbohydrates something like that, and you 999 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,360 Speaker 1: add this solution to it. It is UH. The organic 1000 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 1: materials are ripped apart by the acid, and then the 1001 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: remaining carbon is just removed and evaporated by the hydrogen peroxide. 1002 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,560 Speaker 1: I was reading about many ways that the piranha solution is, 1003 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,720 Speaker 1: as I've said several times now, extremely dangerous. This is 1004 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:24,840 Speaker 1: not one to try it with a home chemistry set, 1005 00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: as it can easily explode and cause severe injuries and burns. 1006 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 1: I was reading a story that was sent to UH 1007 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,400 Speaker 1: in a letter to Chemical Engineering News by a couple 1008 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: of researchers in the year nineteen nine that was about 1009 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 1: multiple accidents that had occurred in university labs with Piranha solutions. 1010 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,400 Speaker 1: One where a container of paranha solution was sitting stored 1011 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,720 Speaker 1: in a fume hood and about a week after it 1012 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,479 Speaker 1: was mixed, it just spontaneously exploded. Another one they talked 1013 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:56,160 Speaker 1: about is UH it occurred at Cornell University, where I 1014 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,560 Speaker 1: think what happened is that some Piranha solution was accidentally 1015 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,720 Speaker 1: and very unfortunately mixed with acet tone and this caused 1016 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,760 Speaker 1: a violent explosion that like ripped apart the hood that 1017 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,919 Speaker 1: it was under severely injured the person who was working 1018 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,840 Speaker 1: on it. They ended up, you know, covered in this 1019 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,800 Speaker 1: corrosive liquid with a bunch of glass embedded in them. 1020 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,560 Speaker 1: So it is not something to screw around with. So 1021 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: not literal alcahist, not a literal universal solvent, but but 1022 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 1: parana solution will get you a lot of the way there. 1023 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,000 Speaker 1: All right, Well, you know, at this point we're reaching 1024 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,959 Speaker 1: the end of the podcasts, and I think the only 1025 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 1: only way to really go at this point is to 1026 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:36,000 Speaker 1: at least briefly discuss new age occult thinking and um 1027 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:42,440 Speaker 1: also tech biz lingo. Okay, let's let's start with with 1028 01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,240 Speaker 1: the with the new age, new age and occult psych 1029 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,800 Speaker 1: and psychedelic thinking, basically discussing universal solvent is a metaphor. Now. 1030 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: Earlier in our discussion, I brought up Terrence McKinnon his 1031 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,880 Speaker 1: lectures on alchemy, and again McKenna said that he didn't 1032 01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,800 Speaker 1: see much of a a connection between alchemy and psychedelics. Uh, 1033 01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: those certain important uh pharmacological discoveries would come out of alchemy. 1034 01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,240 Speaker 1: For the most part, psychedelics were the domain of the shaman. 1035 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,160 Speaker 1: But of course other schools of thought would later on 1036 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,280 Speaker 1: in human history come back to alchemy, uh and it's 1037 01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:17,040 Speaker 1: sacred and obscure dimensions and find new meanings there. So, 1038 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,520 Speaker 1: for instance, we see that with the unions, and we 1039 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,000 Speaker 1: also see that with psychedelic and new age thinking as well. Again, 1040 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, you're dealing with with recipes that are dealing 1041 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, talking about the red dragon and using code words, 1042 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 1: but also dealing in philosophical and magical ideas. It's irresistible 1043 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,760 Speaker 1: to come back and sort of um, you know, and 1044 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,120 Speaker 1: view your own meaning into it and uh and and 1045 01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,240 Speaker 1: perhaps even rediscover aspects of your your your current, your 1046 01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,439 Speaker 1: contemporary system by breathing it into this archaic apparatus. Yeah, 1047 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,840 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I think alchemy. Concepts from alchemy 1048 01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,440 Speaker 1: were very popular to be played around with by like 1049 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot of uh the sort of new religious movements 1050 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,000 Speaker 1: of the late nineteenth century. Yeah, and and really this 1051 01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: ultimately fits the basic format of alchemy throughout history. Like 1052 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:12,600 Speaker 1: a lot of alchemy, even you know, you know, in 1053 01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:16,560 Speaker 1: the old days, revolved around looking back at old texts, 1054 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 1: piecing together bits from old texts, and trying to to 1055 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,520 Speaker 1: break new ground understand what these these other authors were 1056 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,280 Speaker 1: talking about, and uh in creating some new frame of 1057 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 1: meaning around it. You know, something that alchemy also has 1058 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,720 Speaker 1: in common with religious texts is pseudonymous writings. Uh so 1059 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,400 Speaker 1: in in for example, in the early centuries of Christianity, 1060 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 1: a huge thing that would often go on is like 1061 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,560 Speaker 1: you would write a new book that you know, you 1062 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,760 Speaker 1: would want to be taken as scripture that would advance 1063 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,440 Speaker 1: your view of the correct theological interpretation of Christ. But 1064 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,800 Speaker 1: you'd be like, well, and nobody knows who I am, 1065 01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,000 Speaker 1: so I'm going to say that this was written by St. Peter, 1066 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,120 Speaker 1: and so you know, this is the Gospel of Peter, Like, 1067 01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,000 Speaker 1: this is definitely not written by Peter. Um the people. 1068 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,320 Speaker 1: We're doing this kind of thing all the time. The 1069 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,959 Speaker 1: same thing happened with alchemy. People would write pseudonymously as 1070 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,760 Speaker 1: like you know, as one of the great masters of alchemy. Yes, uh, 1071 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,440 Speaker 1: this was by Paracelsus, but it actually wasn't. It was 1072 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:15,760 Speaker 1: just some somebody well, you know in in In dealing 1073 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,040 Speaker 1: specifically with it with alcohest and the idea of a 1074 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,840 Speaker 1: universal solvent. You know, I looked through some of the 1075 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,160 Speaker 1: writings of uh and and lectures of mckinna. I looked 1076 01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 1: through uh iLiad's work and uh, you know, it's possible 1077 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: I missed something, but I didn't find any case where 1078 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 1: either of them specifically spoke or wrote about the alcahest um. However, 1079 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: you do see the alcohest pop up in New Age 1080 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,440 Speaker 1: and psychedelic literature as a metaphor in some cases for 1081 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,800 Speaker 1: psychedelic compounds. Um, you know, a way of thinking about 1082 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,760 Speaker 1: with something like the psilocybin can do in the mind. 1083 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,840 Speaker 1: But it reminds me a little bit of mckinna's arguments 1084 01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,840 Speaker 1: about the argument that psychedelics in the West may have 1085 01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,600 Speaker 1: enabled Buddhism to spread more thoroughly through Western thought. I'm 1086 01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:01,400 Speaker 1: not sure I agree with them completely on that, but 1087 01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,120 Speaker 1: I think it's a it's a valid point that as 1088 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,080 Speaker 1: a culture's understanding of consciousness changes, it does open them 1089 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: up to the discovery and rediscovery of various spiritual concepts. Okay, So, 1090 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,760 Speaker 1: in if you're thinking in the Terence mckinna type, vein, 1091 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,320 Speaker 1: the idea is that, uh, is that the use of 1092 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:23,720 Speaker 1: psychedelics would have broadly enabled sort of reduced the mind 1093 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,120 Speaker 1: to its tree a prima or to its more proximate 1094 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:31,720 Speaker 1: constituents without degradation, allowing h more different types of states 1095 01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,640 Speaker 1: of mind to be accessed as opposed to the narrower 1096 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,120 Speaker 1: window of different ways you can think based on your 1097 01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,680 Speaker 1: cultural upbringing. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And and yeah, 1098 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:43,880 Speaker 1: I like this idea. I like the idea of using 1099 01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 1: alcoholst as a as a kind of metaphor for anything 1100 01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: that like breaks down unuseful rigidity and thought or culture. Um. Yeah, 1101 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,960 Speaker 1: and and and I also like the idea of of 1102 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,120 Speaker 1: of psychedelics being seen as some sort of a universal 1103 01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,760 Speaker 1: solvent potentially. And and again you know you then the 1104 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,640 Speaker 1: breaking down of things that I think it also drives 1105 01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,280 Speaker 1: home that it's a delicate process and you know what 1106 01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 1: you're doing, and you don't want to, you know, to 1107 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: to go too far and dissolve too much. Uh but uh, 1108 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, breaking down the mind that's too rigid to 1109 01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,200 Speaker 1: melt right. Um. The one point McKenna does point out 1110 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:21,680 Speaker 1: that there's this, um, this alchemical alphamism that in in 1111 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:28,720 Speaker 1: in Latin is dissolutio at coagulato, which we're just discussing 1112 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,960 Speaker 1: this off, Mike. Uh, Like this basically breaks down to 1113 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:37,000 Speaker 1: the dissolving and um and the coagulation of things to 1114 01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,520 Speaker 1: break things down and then things build back up UM, 1115 01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,120 Speaker 1: and that that ultimately this is all one needs to 1116 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,840 Speaker 1: know about like the nature of reality. Uh, you know, 1117 01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,360 Speaker 1: the the alchemical truth of things. And uh, I think 1118 01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,920 Speaker 1: this is you know, this is this is a basic 1119 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,480 Speaker 1: idea that you can apply to the physical world but 1120 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,960 Speaker 1: also to you can you can see how readily one 1121 01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,480 Speaker 1: could take to this as a as as a psychological 1122 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,640 Speaker 1: concept as well, and certainly a psychedelic concept. You know, 1123 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,000 Speaker 1: the idea of breaking things down. But then but then 1124 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,960 Speaker 1: that rigidity is going to is going to return. There's 1125 01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,680 Speaker 1: going to be some coagulation that's going to take place again, 1126 01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, I do. Before we end, though, I want 1127 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,160 Speaker 1: to come back to something that I think we touched 1128 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:21,680 Speaker 1: on earlier, which is the potential dangers of of seeing 1129 01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the world in terms of universal solvents. I mean, one 1130 01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,040 Speaker 1: thing we learned as alchemy passed away and gave way 1131 01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,520 Speaker 1: to modern chemistry is that there is in fact no 1132 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,800 Speaker 1: such thing as a as a universal solvent in chemistry. 1133 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean, there are solvents that will dissolve lots of things, 1134 01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:38,800 Speaker 1: but but there is no universal acid in the Daniel 1135 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,320 Speaker 1: Dennett sense, and I wonder if that is also a 1136 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,960 Speaker 1: lesson that should be applied in in the metaphorical way, 1137 01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,320 Speaker 1: sort of coming back against everything we've talked about in 1138 01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,000 Speaker 1: this episode, because I, I I mean, I really do believe 1139 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:53,880 Speaker 1: that a huge amount of trouble and confusion in the 1140 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:58,320 Speaker 1: world comes from people getting overly attached to a certain 1141 01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,760 Speaker 1: lens of viewing the world or or analytical tool or 1142 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:07,320 Speaker 1: new strategy and thinking that it will solve everything. Uh, 1143 01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,480 Speaker 1: that it will answer all questions, that it will solve 1144 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,240 Speaker 1: all your problems. You know, Like I feel like that 1145 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,800 Speaker 1: that that is something that we all have a tendency for, 1146 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:20,240 Speaker 1: but it's it's very dangerous and something to watch out 1147 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,320 Speaker 1: for in yourself. And one of the weird ways I 1148 01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,560 Speaker 1: was thinking about this is actually pulling us away from 1149 01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:29,360 Speaker 1: the the mysterious worlds at the intersection of you know, 1150 01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,400 Speaker 1: theology and metaphysics and science and chemistry. I was thinking 1151 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:38,240 Speaker 1: about this in terms of tech business because I was 1152 01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,920 Speaker 1: just thinking about all of the different universal solvents that 1153 01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 1: we have witnessed come and go over the years working 1154 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,360 Speaker 1: in digital media, and they come and they go, and 1155 01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,360 Speaker 1: they come and they go, and so I'm thinking about 1156 01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:53,080 Speaker 1: the universal solvents of search engine optimization. You remember when 1157 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,600 Speaker 1: like everything on the Internet suddenly had to change to 1158 01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,560 Speaker 1: be search engine optimized, and it kind of ruined a 1159 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:01,760 Speaker 1: huge amount of content it was good previously and then 1160 01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,640 Speaker 1: was just destroyed by optimization for Google search results. And 1161 01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,760 Speaker 1: then that kind of and then you know, they change 1162 01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,800 Speaker 1: how their search results are calculated anyway, so it becomes 1163 01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,920 Speaker 1: obsolete later on. And then I remember the the u 1164 01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 1: GC revolution. At some point it was like, well, everything's 1165 01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:20,240 Speaker 1: got to be user generated content, you know, and everything 1166 01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:22,720 Speaker 1: is Wikipedia now, yeah, and so and that sort of 1167 01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,080 Speaker 1: destroyed everything in its path, and then that kind of 1168 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:29,080 Speaker 1: went away, and you know, the various pivot to videos 1169 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:32,080 Speaker 1: and the optimization for the Facebook news feed and then that, 1170 01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,920 Speaker 1: and then the pivot to blockchain and everything. You know, 1171 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,479 Speaker 1: It's like every every few years in our business space, 1172 01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:42,160 Speaker 1: we we see a universal solvent come along that maybe 1173 01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 1: changes some things, maybe destroys some things, and maybe maybe 1174 01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,519 Speaker 1: hopefully there are some things that are relatively unscathed by it. 1175 01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 1: But then it just goes along on its own way. 1176 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,320 Speaker 1: And and usually these things do not actually solve all 1177 01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 1: the problems and do not will not last forever. Well, 1178 01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 1: I guess it ultimately comes down to who is applying 1179 01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,720 Speaker 1: a supposed universal solving, right, and it generally comes down 1180 01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,000 Speaker 1: to these these businesses of disruption. It is about dissolving 1181 01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:12,840 Speaker 1: the rigidity of the of some aspect of the industry. 1182 01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:16,360 Speaker 1: But it comes back to that that that alchemical truth 1183 01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:21,080 Speaker 1: that we just laid out right, the dissolution and coagulation there, 1184 01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:24,280 Speaker 1: it's not so much the dissolution that they're into, it 1185 01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,040 Speaker 1: is the eventual coagulation because they wish to be the 1186 01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,000 Speaker 1: masters of that coagulation. You know, I want I don't 1187 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,840 Speaker 1: want to make everything free so that it remains free. 1188 01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,200 Speaker 1: I want to make everything free because I have a 1189 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,439 Speaker 1: new model of how to charge for it, you know. Uh. 1190 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:40,320 Speaker 1: And that's what we see time and time again with 1191 01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:45,679 Speaker 1: these different disruption strategies. You want to disrupt they take uh, 1192 01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, cable television, right, I mean, it's just it's 1193 01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,519 Speaker 1: it's it's classic, you know, all these uh, these services 1194 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,200 Speaker 1: that came along to cut our costs and cut our chords, 1195 01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,200 Speaker 1: and you know, and we're at the point now where, yeah, 1196 01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:00,559 Speaker 1: if you want to watch everything that everyone's talking about, 1197 01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,439 Speaker 1: you're spending as much money as you were as you 1198 01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,559 Speaker 1: were probably spending in previous decades on your your cable 1199 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:09,360 Speaker 1: and your satellite and so forth. So it's just but 1200 01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,479 Speaker 1: just the structure of it and the masters of it 1201 01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,400 Speaker 1: having some cases changed. Yeah, I mean, I guess it 1202 01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,559 Speaker 1: is often that you're just finding that you go through 1203 01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,720 Speaker 1: destruction and then there's some kind of return to a 1204 01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,000 Speaker 1: new equilibrium. But um, but along the way, I would 1205 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 1: just say, be careful not to be led astray or 1206 01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,160 Speaker 1: to lose too much to something that seems like it. 1207 01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:30,439 Speaker 1: I guess anything that seems like it does anything, the 1208 01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,240 Speaker 1: universal solvent or the panacea. I mean, nothing actually works 1209 01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,559 Speaker 1: in every case. And even if something is good, it's something, 1210 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,280 Speaker 1: it's it's not good at everything, right, It just might 1211 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: just reduce your product um to a to a carbon husk. Right, Yeah, 1212 01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:50,920 Speaker 1: all right, Well, we're gonna go ahead and close the 1213 01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,920 Speaker 1: alchemical books on this one, but I'm sure we will 1214 01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,240 Speaker 1: return to alchemy in the future when we deal so 1215 01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,800 Speaker 1: much with the history of sigen ants and UH, and 1216 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,439 Speaker 1: you know in the history of religion and spiritual concepts 1217 01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:09,160 Speaker 1: as well, that inevitably, UH alchemical topics will arise once more, 1218 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:11,720 Speaker 1: and and I look forward to it. And hey, uh, 1219 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:13,800 Speaker 1: maybe we'll do an episode in Piranhas in the near 1220 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,240 Speaker 1: future as well. I love a good a good biology 1221 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,200 Speaker 1: exploration as well. In the meantime, if you like to 1222 01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:22,200 Speaker 1: check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 1223 01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,320 Speaker 1: you know where to find them. There in the Stuff 1224 01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,160 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed, where you can get 1225 01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,680 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. You'll find core episodes on 1226 01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,479 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. You'll find artifact episodes on Wednesdays, listener 1227 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,479 Speaker 1: mails on Mondays. Fridays you'll find episodes of Weird how Cinema. 1228 01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 1: That's where we just talk about a weird movie with 1229 01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:42,759 Speaker 1: little or no concern for science or alchemy uh either. 1230 01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,599 Speaker 1: And then on the weekends we air a little bit 1231 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,679 Speaker 1: of a repeating the form of a vault episode. Huge 1232 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:52,000 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1233 01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:53,640 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1234 01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,120 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1235 01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:58,599 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 1236 01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:01,240 Speaker 1: email us at contact debt Stuff to Blow your Mind 1237 01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:11,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 1238 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,840 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit 1239 01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,360 Speaker 1: the I Heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 1240 01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:29,839 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.