WEBVTT - #570 Guest Host John Huffington with Elmer Daniels 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:07.480 January fifteenth, nineteen eighty was Martin Luther King Day. As 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:10.040 the young folks with the day all from school in Wilmington, 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.960 Delaware through a party. At about five pm, two white 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.759 fifteen year olds, a male and a female, left the 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.320 party and headed towards some train tracks. There are some 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.560 discrepancies between their accounts, but according to both of them, 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.720 a black man in tan pants and a green jacket 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.600 chased the young man away before raping the young woman. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.840 The young man said that the assailant was a former 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.920 classmate named Elmer, and the young woman identified eighteen year 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.720 old Elmer Daniels from a photo array. Then the search 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.400 of Elmer's home turned up a tampair of pants and 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.879 a green jacket in addition to the ID and the 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.400 items of clothing. An FBI agent testified a trial about 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.720 hairs found on Elmer's pants and a young woman's undergarments. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:59.000 They constituted what he called a double match. But this 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:17.360 is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm John Huffington, 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.720 former guests, and we'll have my episode linked in the bio. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.640 I spent thirty two years in the Maryland Department of Correction. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.559 Ten of those years were on death row. During that time, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.480 an FBI whistleblower exposed a fellow agent for testifying beyond 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.679 the limits of science. In my case and many others, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.560 one of which we will be covering today, I'm so 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.040 honored to be filling in for my dear friend Jason 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.440 flumm As we welcome Elmer Daniels. Can you introduce yourself 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:45.080 to the audience. 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.720 My name is Elmer Daniels, and I'm a twenty eighteen 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.880 exonery convicted in nineteen eighty for a rape that never happened. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.000 And before we unpack all that, I just want to 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.600 introduce your attorneys also joining us, Amica Igway. Welcome to 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.640 the show. Thank you so Elmer. Before any of this 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.360 happened to you, I just kind of want to hear 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.080 a little bit about your life growing up in Wilmington, Delaware. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.880 Okay. I came from a two parent household. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.800 Now, I had my great grandparents, my grandparents, mom and dad, 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.639 big family. I wasn't a bad kid, and I knew 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.120 right from wrong, and I based all my decisions on 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.000 not getting ass whooping. That's for real, I'm being honest. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.639 And that was the sixties and seventies kid growing up. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.440 But you did stray from that guiding principle at least 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.800 on one occasion. It did something well, you know, it 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.400 was kind of commonplace in the sixties and seventies, right, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:33.280 joy riding. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.360 Yeah, I went for a joey ride, all right. That 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.800 was the only thing that I actually was as a 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.200 minor convicted of. It was on my record, and it 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.440 was in Ellesmere. I was a young kid and bumped 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.800 into the van. The keys fell and my light went on, 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.280 Oh there's a van, you know, let's see how far 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:51.920 you can go in it before you get cart I 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:52.359 got caught. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.120 Now, when you got caught for that, did you do 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:55.480 a juvie time? 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.000 Yeah? I went to Bridge House. 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.680 I stayed at Bridge House for ninety maybe ninety because 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:02.840 you could just go and then your parents come get you, 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.760 you know. So she let me bake for a while, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:06.840 you know, and let me see how it was, and 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.760 actually that that was enough. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.239 So a little tough love, you know, steered your way 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.400 from the petty crime. I mean, obviously joey riding is 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.079 certainly not a violent crime. But that incident is why 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.840 the police had your mugshot in January of nineteen eighty 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.920 when the alleged rape occurred, Emica, can you fill us 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.400 in a little bit on the details. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.880 The underlying crime was an alleged rape of a fifteen 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:35.040 year old white female who left a party on January fifteenth, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.360 nineteen eighty, with another fifteen year old white male. They 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.840 went to some nearby railroad tracks. When they get there, 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.600 their stories differ. According to the fifteen year old male, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.600 he engaged in sexual intercourse with the fifteen year old 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.520 white female. The white female denies that she ever had 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.640 sexual intercourse with the male. Nonetheless, the female claims that 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.280 while they were talking on railroad tracks, a black male 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.920 came up to them. The fifteen year old male ran away, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.600 and after he ran away, the black mail allegedly held 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.600 her down and raped her for two and a half minutes. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.360 The black mail allegedly had his hands on her neck. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.720 And both the alleged victim, who will refer to as GS, 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:20.440 and the young man who will call case. Both of 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.080 them said that the alleged of saund was wearing khaki 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.560 pants and a green jacket, and GS described the alleged 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.880 sailing as having a big news and nails that were 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.600 bitten down. As far as they could go. So what 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:32.400 happened Next? 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.480 She goes back to the party and tells people that 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.360 she had been raped. The police are called. And when 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.680 the police come, naturally they want to speak to the 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.719 fifteen year old male and questioned him on what occurred, 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.640 and he gives about four different accounts and the first 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.560 time he says some male named Jack Smith came up. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.480 The police followed that lead find out that it's false. 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.960 After about three or four stories that are inconsistent and 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.120 contradictory and turn out to be false, the police turn 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.000 around and charged this fifteen year od Mail with hindering prosecution. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.599 They also threatened to charge him with the actual rape 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:11.359 itself unless he tells them what really happened. And under 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:13.800 that durest, the fifteen year old Mail says, there was 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.599 some guy named Elmer. I don't know his last name, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.000 but I was in the same eighth grade math class 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.440 with him. That's going to turn out to be significant 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.160 because the name of the middle school was called Bayered 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.600 Middle School. Elma had in fact attended by a middle school. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.120 But back in nineteen seventy eight, when this fifteen year 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.000 old Mail was in middle school, Elma was in the 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.400 tenth grade at nearby high School. There was a three 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.360 year age difference between him. He was fifteen, Alma was eighteen. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.719 They won in the same eighth grade math class together. 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.240 I'm curious, did you even know Casey? 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.159 Never met him before, never met the girl until I 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.920 walked into the court room. Wow, as the first time 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.279 I actually seen both of them. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.360 So now they go looking for a kid named Elmer 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:57.000 that attended Bayern Middle School. But the three year difference 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.479 between Elmer and case should have been enough for the 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.200 police to the case he had lied again, this time 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.600 for the very obvious benefit of not being charged in 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.359 the rape himself. But instead they pulled Elmer's mugshot, And 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.960 at this point GS had already seen upwards of three 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.719 hundred mug shots, and who knows how suggestive this identification 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.880 process was. In addition, we know from study after study 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.560 the cross re shoal identifications are less accurate than guessing. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.360 But nonetheless, that's what we have here, And they got 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:28.680 an arrest warrant for Elmer. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.599 Thirty five days into my eighteenth birthday, a knock on 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.960 my door six eighteen North Harston Street, City, Wilmington. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.200 Our brother opens the door. 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.880 Police entered say they were looking for me because they 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.680 were charging me with the crime of rape. At that time, 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:44.640 not knowing what that was, I had to ask a question, 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.440 what is that? After being explained what that was by 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.919 my sister, I was like, you know, I didn't know 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.799 what to think, but I did know I'm going to jail. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.240 Sir Elmer, you weren't even there. Where were you when 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:57.920 this happened? 0:06:58.320 --> 0:06:59.320 Yeah? I wasn't there. 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.800 I was playing basketball at church cross the street from 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.960 my house. You had to sign in, and people that 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.640 I was with their names were on there, and all 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.279 the childhood friends and neighborhood all their names was on there. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.080 But there had a problem with me because my name 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:13.400 was on the bottom of the list. 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.800 But it's on the list. Where regards that? 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.119 Now? This church basketball court was well over a mile 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:20.400 from where the incident occurred. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.440 Yes, but police said I could run from where I 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.720 lived to where the crime happened in two minutes. I 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.800 mean sixty seconds there went the crime is sixty seconds back. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.440 And he said he drove it and he got there 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.640 in two minutes. So if I was running, there's no 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.000 way I'm gonna get there in two minutes. 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.000 And then do an assault That last summer was three minutes. 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.000 And come back, so we got a total of seven minutes, so. 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.440 Basically you were running a mile under a minute, So 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.840 that's impossible. Now, this was the pre DNA, but a 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.880 rape kit was performed and physical evidence had been collected. 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.160 So what can you tell us about that? 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.440 There was blood, there was seamen, and there was hair evidence. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.720 They were able to match the blood type to Elmer. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.080 They had seamen DNA didn't exist, but there was nothing 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:09.440 they could use to match that to Elmer. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.120 And I'm sure had there been a blood type president 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.600 in the semen that matched Elmer, they would have made 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.880 huge smoke about that. But Secrete's status isn't even mentioned. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.880 So we've got the impossible on foot round trip. The 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.800 blood type didn't match the three year age difference. As 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.800 for the hair evidence, there were hairs collected from Elmer's 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.920 pants as well as hair is collected from Gs's undergarments, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.400 and we'll get to that in just a bit. But first, 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.840 when they tossed your house, they found items of clothing 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.440 khaki pants and a green jacket. This is what the 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.560 alleged sound was supposed to have been wearing. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.439 They actually found the pants in a third bedroom closet. 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.560 There were a pair of khakis, but they were old, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.760 you know how you put clothes away and pack them. 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.000 They went through the house and they found those. They 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.920 found jacket in my brother's bedroom on the second floor, 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.560 which was his jacket. Had his name on it, but 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.360 they tried to say it belonged to me. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.640 So there was a notebook that was inside the jacket. 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.760 Fingerprints were lifted from that notebook. There was an FBI 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.960 agent who testified that he could not exclude Elmer, but 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.000 he couldn't include him either, And when we got involved, 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.240 we had them retest those fingerprints, and those fingerprints were 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.920 negative for Elma's fingerprints. So that goes to show the 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.920 lack of evidence that that jacket belonged to Elmer, in 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.240 addition to having another name engraved on the inside. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:32.400 So they were really just trying to fit a square 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:33.560 peg into a round hole. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.280 From the very beginning, the police were eager to find someone. 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.200 There had been two previous rapes by alleged blackmails of 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.680 white women back in nineteen eighty and the police wanted 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.320 to find out if Elmer was a serial rapist, and 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.400 they actually tried to link him to the previous two rapes, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.520 and that came out to be not true, so they 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.440 dropped that and proceeded to want to prosecute Elmer. We 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.120 believed send a message and to appease the community that 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.240 we can't hang them like we used to back in 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.640 the sixties, but we can send a message by giving 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.040 an eighteen year old mail a life sentence. 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.000 There was a no bail situation. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.559 I'm assuming bail was actually five thousand dollars. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.320 Wow, and did you post that bill? No? 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.040 I didn't. I wasn't in financial fortitude to post a bail. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.760 So while you were stuck in jail from January until 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.880 trial in May of nineteen eighty, I understand that the 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.800 Court of appointed a psychologist to make a recommendation on 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.000 your mental state, and in interviewing you, he raised a 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:38.160 red flag, saying, among other things, that HEYJS has said 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.480 that her saleing had a big nose and nails that 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.240 were bitten down to the nub. That wasn't the case 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:43.520 with you. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.000 I went in, in my natural sense its self in state. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.880 It was comfortable, and he and I had a conversation, 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.520 But at the same time he was observing the things 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.600 that they said were part of me that weren't, and 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.080 he made that assertation in his notes. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.280 Matt Quarter appointed psychologists actually took the time. He states 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.120 in this letter, I tried not to play detective, but 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.720 I have to write your honor to state that I 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.040 believe Elma Daniels is innocent. And we have that letter. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.880 He c ced the district attorney and Elmer's public defender, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.720 and he goes on to lists why he believes that 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.400 Elmer is in fact innocent. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.439 Okay, so you have a public defender. How often did 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.920 you even talk to did you meet? 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:27.240 Well? 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.600 I met defense attorney edbra Pankowski. By the time I 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.640 got to try, I had only seen him twice. But 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.839 the first thing that he offered me when I met 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.240 him was a deal. And I'm like, deal for what 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.559 you know? He said, well, you know, judging that they 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.079 got all the evidence that I see against you, because 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.600 he had ran all over to all the evidence with 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:50.440 me that he felt was making me guilty. The first 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.559 deal was five to fifteenth to life. That was for 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.679 second degree. I'm like, well, we're going to We're gonna try, right, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:58.840 They're gonna try if they're gonna get me, they're gona 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:00.000 get because I'm an go down fighting. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:02.360 So the jury was going to hear from Gs to 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.280 Casey as well as this puff of smoke from the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.560 FBI at fingerprint analysis about the notebook in the green jacket. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.559 And then our favorite the FBI agent who also testified 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.600 in my case, special agent Michael P. Malone, and he's 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.480 going to testify about hair is allegedly found on Gs's 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.440 undergarmers and these khaki pants that have been packed away 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.480 in a third bedroom clause at Elmer's house. 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.240 I always say that I don't blame the jury for 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:35.480 convicting Elmer because the hair analysis would have had a 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.960 tremendous impact on anyone. They had this FBI agent who 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.320 supposedly had all the credentials as an expert and was 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.880 a prolific testifier on behalf of the FBI. He testified, 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.360 as you know, all across the country. He appears, and 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.760 he says in Elma's case that there was a double match. 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:55.760 What do we mean by a double match? He said, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.920 there was hair that was found on the pants when 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:04.439 Elmo was arrested that belonged to Caucasian individual. And there 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.079 was hair found on the underwear of the victim that 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.480 belonged to an African American individual, and he testified to 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.160 the jury that there was a microscopic match between the 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.600 hair and the victims underwear that belonged to Elmer and 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.200 the hair that was found on Elma's pants was belonged 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.040 to the victim. And he said it was a double match. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.520 That this is something he's never even come across. You 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.800 can imagine the impact that that would have had on 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.720 a jury. Back then there wasn't any DNA, but that 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.400 kind of testimony is equivalent to DNA identification. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.600 Okay, I get the definition of double match, but guess 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.760 what if neither one of them is the right hair, 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.360 then you've matched nothing. You just have two hairs in 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.600 two different places or three different places that actually aren't 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.360 the same hairs? Am I right in just that basic assumption? 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.360 Absolutely? And that's one of the things when we fast 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.719 forward when we send the transcripts to the FBI, they 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.920 had to admit. The Special Counsel from the US Department 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.760 of Justice wrote to the Attorney General of Delaware admitting 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.720 their agent testified, as they put it, beyond the means 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.960 of science aka also known as he lied. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.640 And you know he used that phrase to elevate it 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.960 to some extreme like I've never hardy ever seen this, 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.240 or you know this is a double match, and you 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.520 get this catchphrase that, like you said, twelve people like 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.400 you and I are hearing this when you have an 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.800 FBI agent suit and tie Jaeger Hoover. We're all taught 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.400 to believe in the infallibility of their work, because I 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.800 had a similar thing. Agent Michael Malone in my case 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.320 was to a ninety eight point nine percent certainty, but 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.200 we learned later that one he probably didn't even do 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.280 the test himself, and DNA conclusively proved that he was lying. 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.240 So I get what you're saying as far as that goes. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:53.920 So everything stacked against Selmer. We've got these junk sciences 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:58.200 going on. Did your lawyer contact the people that played 0:14:58.240 --> 0:14:59.160 basketball with. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.040 You, the guy that ran the director he actually testified, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.480 he signed in. I knew he was there, know all 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.600 his friends, even some of our friends testified. 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.520 But since these people knew you, obviously the prosecution just 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.360 shot holes in your alibi by attacking their credibility on 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.800 that angle. But what about the age discrepancy between you 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.160 and kse I mean, obviously, you guys were not in 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:21.400 the same year school. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.160 The prosecutor presented a middle school teacher to say that 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.240 Elmer was in eighth grade math class. We believed that 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.320 teacher did in fact teach Elmer, but this year's prior 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.880 and Elma also to make it more confused, and Elma 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.360 also had brothers who had that same teacher. 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:37.840 And his sister. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.240 Yes, we all had him for home room, all had him. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.760 So but Elmer then takes a stand and tells a jury, no, 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.480 I was not in the same eighth grade math class 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.160 as Casey. The prosecution then calls us a rebuttal witness, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.400 a detective who is a name defendant in the lawsuit 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.440 that we have going on now and he's still alive, 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.080 who says Elma was in the same eighth grade math 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:06.160 class as case. So you can see how the jury 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.400 would say, well, if he's going to lie to us 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.400 about being the same eighth grade math class as KC. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.200 Case testified to it, the teacher testified to it, and 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.120 this rebuttal witness came and testified to it, it must 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.960 be true. And where we follow the prosecutor is just 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.520 like we pulled the transcripts he's an agent of the state. 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.040 The school districts are agents of the state. He could 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.360 have easily pulled those transcripts, but they had a narrative 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.000 and they were going to follow through that narrative that 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:36.400 Elma was in fact doing us. 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.200 Yeah, that is definitely improper. Did you just take the 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:41.120 stand in this case? 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.600 She was one of the first witnesses. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.720 What's your analysis of the cross examination? 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.840 Unfortunately, there was several things that he could have certainly 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.400 explored contradictions not just in her testimony, but the testimony 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.000 of KC. One of the big ones was Casey's claim 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.120 that he had sexual intercourse that should have been explored. 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:02.880 There was some other evidence that we don't need to 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.080 get into that shows that she did in fact have 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.080 sexual intercourse, but none if that was explored. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.280 I ask Elmer, It's one thing to have, you know, 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.520 fbi ages and folk up there and they're describing evidence 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.920 and talking about things. It's another thing when it gets personal. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.760 How did you feel when you sat there and listened 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.080 to Gs's testimony. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.200 I basically sitting there as an eighteen year old kid, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:26.040 is she's lying? 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.560 Literally, she's lying? And what could I do about it? 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:29.080 Right? 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.720 I have people protecting her interests and nobody protected mind. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.720 So I sit there, watch listen. I can't explode because 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.800 it makes it worse, so I had to sit there 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.680 and swallow it. But at the same time, you can't 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.760 understand why someone would do that. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.520 So between GS identifying you and Special Agent Malone making 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.160 his double match, any of the other defense efforts were 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:53.840 doomed to fall short when. 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.399 They found me guilty a month later that they sentenced me. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.840 I never forget it on my sister's birthday. So they 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.159 give me forty five years to life with the possibility 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.119 up role. But the thing about it is they convicted me, 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.359 sentenced me, offered me a deal in the process before trial, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:13.160 after trial, gave me time, pulled me back into court 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:15.359 eighteen months later, offered me a deal. 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.080 Paul's there for a second. I gotta keep up with 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.240 you on that part of the story. 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.280 Eighteen months they come back with this deal. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.920 Now, common sense tell me when they did that, because 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.679 they did it before trial, during trial, and then you 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:30.720 convict me and give me the time, and then you're 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.840 coming back to offer me the deal, you know what 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.040 I mean. But then they blamed it on the fact 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.439 that because I had no real serious criminal history, and 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.280 due to the lack of physical trauma to the victim, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.159 then they didn't feel it was conducive to give me 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.760 what you gave me, and so all those flags went up. 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:48.359 Something's wrong. 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.800 And that's what I just kept saying to myself, something's wrong. 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.640 Why would you come back and offer me a deal? 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.040 You knocked me in my head, said that's what I deserved. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.520 Somebody in there knew something was wrong, but that somebody 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:13.800 couldn't do anymore than they were doing. When I went 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.359 into the penitentiary, it only held five hundred people, okay, 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:20.760 and you could scratch it at seven. Imagine seeing three 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.600 penitentiaries built, you know, and asking you do you want 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.600 to build or be a part? And I'm like, I'm 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.600 not building anything. You're gonna put me in, you know. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.399 I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. Early into 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.719 being in calls, Rade, I wanted to fight you at 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.760 every cause first I'm scared. Second, I'm not gonna let 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.800 you do anything to me, you know. And I learned 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.840 real earlier because of a guy that was familiar with 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.119 my family and knew my father kind of pulled me 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:45.280 to the side and he let me know. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.040 He said, listen, you're angry, but you know if you don't. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.920 Change, somebody's gonna kill you, or you're gonna kill somebody 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.720 because you're angry. And he said, let me ask you something. 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.200 I said what he said, had all the guys is 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.800 in here who did something to you? And that made 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.520 sense to me because they were there before I got there. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.120 And so there's a code of ethic, there's inmate code 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:08.080 of ethic, and. 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:10.240 Then there's the code ethic for the officers because they 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:11.080 want to go home. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.239