1
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and this is Bridgett, and this

2
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 1: is stuff I'll never told you. Today, Um, we're gonna

3
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,720
Speaker 1: talk about something that has come up at least twice

4
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 1: on stuff I've never told you, once with you and

5
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: Emily Bridget and once with Christy Caroline. And that's marriage,

6
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,839
Speaker 1: and specifically a feminist marriage. Is it possible? Can it

7
00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,639
Speaker 1: be done? Um? And we're speaking with Joe Piazza, who

8
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,120
Speaker 1: has written a book How to Be Married, and it

9
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,480
Speaker 1: has a new podcast coming out called Committed. It's coming

10
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,239
Speaker 1: out Tune six. I've been hearing stories about the production

11
00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: aspect of the pre production aspect of that show, and

12
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: it's been fascinating. I'm very excited to hear it. It's um.

13
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 1: Joe goes out and interviews people with marriages that perhaps

14
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 1: don't fit into what we would traditionally think of as

15
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 1: a marriage and ask them, how are you married, how

16
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: does it work for you? And just a look at

17
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 1: all of these different marriages. But I know that we've

18
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit off, Mike bridget and

19
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 1: you've mentioned it some on the show, but I wanted

20
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 1: to ask, as a kid, did you think about marriage

21
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot? I probably did as a kid. Um, I

22
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: remember some Looking back, it's embarrassing, but I remember some

23
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 1: fake weddings that we used to have as kids, like

24
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 1: like dress up weddings with my brother as the group. Oh.

25
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,479
Speaker 1: I guess it's probably illegal, but it was fake. Yeah,

26
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 1: I mean it wasn't legally bindings that I know of.

27
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,120
Speaker 1: Gosh by check into that. That's like a smash cut

28
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,600
Speaker 1: and a sitcom. Oh no, it'll be like follow up episode.

29
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 1: So it turns out my brother and I are legally married,

30
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 1: and I'm dealing with that in court right now. It's

31
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 1: going to follow me around for the rest of my life.

32
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: How about you? Did you Were you the kind of

33
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,520
Speaker 1: kid who dreamed about being married? No? I never did.

34
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 1: And it's one of those things that I always felt

35
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,679
Speaker 1: was weird as a young girl because you're kind of,

36
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 1: I guess expected to fantasize about I'm going to wear

37
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 1: this dress and it's going to be at this location. Um.

38
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever played Mash Yeah, okay,

39
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 1: well this was this game for anyone that didn't know,

40
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 1: it was Mansion Apartment shock House was what Mash did

41
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,800
Speaker 1: for It was basically a game to see like where

42
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,320
Speaker 1: you were gonna end up in the future who you're

43
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 1: going to marry. I'm a kid. You're gonna have what

44
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: dress you're gonna get married in? Um, that was the

45
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: extent of my wondering about marriage. I didn't know I

46
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 1: wanted a short dress because I didn't want to have

47
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 1: to fool with the long train when I was dancing

48
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 1: or whatever. I thought that, well, the train is detachable,

49
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,840
Speaker 1: I think, actually, don't know what do I help? But um, Similarly,

50
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 1: I knew from the movie Clueless. I knew I wanted

51
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: to have a sailor hat, but it was going to

52
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,359
Speaker 1: be a veil and then and then all my bridesmaids

53
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 1: were gonna work the sailor. This is from the because

54
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,360
Speaker 1: in the movie Clueless, shares friend D describes her perfect

55
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,799
Speaker 1: dream wedding and it involves athnautical theme where she wears

56
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 1: her Oliver bride's maids war sailor outfit and that her

57
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 1: cap is going it's gonna be a standards cap with

58
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,240
Speaker 1: a veil attached, which I thought sounded very classy when

59
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 1: I was like eleven. Um, so yeah, maybe AL still

60
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 1: do that if I ever get married. I mean, that

61
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,799
Speaker 1: sounds fun. At least it sounds like it would be fun. Um.

62
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: I as I've gotten older, I have come to the

63
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 1: decision that I probably I'm not the type of person

64
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,400
Speaker 1: that will ever get married. I don't think it's for me.

65
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 1: And for a while, UM, when I would tell people this,

66
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 1: they would always say, like, you're gonna change your mind,

67
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: You're gonna meet the right guy, Everything's gonna fall into place.

68
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 1: And I believed that for a while too. UM. My

69
00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 1: last relationship I just got out of. A relationship is

70
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 1: two and a a half years song and we broke up

71
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,200
Speaker 1: because he was I think he thought if he waited

72
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,680
Speaker 1: me out, I would change my mind. And he said,

73
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 1: I want to get married and don't have the kids,

74
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 1: and I still didn't and I said, I told him

75
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 1: it's a roll of the dice if I ever changed

76
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,160
Speaker 1: my mind. And then he's like, we need to break up,

77
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,719
Speaker 1: And I thought, to be fair to him, I did

78
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,520
Speaker 1: enter into that relationship thinking maybe I would change my

79
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 1: mind too, But I don't think that that's going to

80
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: happen anymore. Why do you think it's not for you?

81
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 1: I think that for a lot of reasons. Um, I

82
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,160
Speaker 1: have a really close friend group, and all of our

83
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: parents are either divorced or extremely unhappy. There's only one

84
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:50,240
Speaker 1: couple that's like still together. And she's actually my so

85
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 1: my friend's mom in this couple. She's this voice I here,

86
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,839
Speaker 1: she's like the Jimney cricket of of my brain. But

87
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: she's really really concer servative. Um, and they're Catholic. And

88
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,320
Speaker 1: so she used to say that, um, if you take

89
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 1: divorce off the table, you'll never get divorced. And I

90
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,480
Speaker 1: was like, okay, kind of an intense, intense thing to say.

91
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,000
Speaker 1: But she she used to say to me that the

92
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,120
Speaker 1: reason so many people are getting divorces because they we've

93
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,479
Speaker 1: made it an option for so many people to get divorced,

94
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,240
Speaker 1: almost like it's a cop out, like at the first

95
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,719
Speaker 1: sign of trouble, like Okay, I'm getting out. But I

96
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 1: don't think that's that's necessarily true. I just hear her

97
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,800
Speaker 1: voice all the time back my Well, Annie, you should

98
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 1: get married because that's that's when you're going to be

99
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,360
Speaker 1: happy and that your life will have meeting and it

100
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 1: will be complete. But ah, yeah, but you strike me

101
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 1: as someone who has a very complete life. You have

102
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 1: a close friend group, really dope hobbies, a cool job.

103
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 1: Why do people think that because you're an unmarried person,

104
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,360
Speaker 1: that your life is not complete. It sounds very full.

105
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: I know that this is a question I asked myself

106
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,520
Speaker 1: all the time, and it's such a strange thing because

107
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 1: to me, it's just not a priority. I do have

108
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 1: a full life. But so many times, especially in like

109
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 1: um any kind of family, extended family type thing, that's

110
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 1: the first thing they want to know, who are you dating?

111
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 1: I mean, when are you gonna settle down? When are

112
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,239
Speaker 1: you going to find the guy? As if I'm living

113
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:27,960
Speaker 1: this immature, it's to be fair, but it's not immature

114
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,040
Speaker 1: because you don't want to get married immature for other reasons,

115
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: for other right by late night like going out maybe,

116
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 1: but in the day, I'm a very mature person. But

117
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,280
Speaker 1: they all, all those questions always make me feel like

118
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,880
Speaker 1: I have failed in some way, or like I am

119
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 1: running out of time and one day I'm just going

120
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,039
Speaker 1: to realize I've wasted all of my youth and now

121
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 1: no one will ever want to marry me. You know,

122
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 1: do you feel something similar to that? I do? Where

123
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,440
Speaker 1: do I start? I mean, my vibe is similar. I mean,

124
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm I'm older than you, Annie, and I think for me,

125
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm not against the idea of getting married. I'm at

126
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 1: someone who says I'll never get married. I don't want

127
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 1: to be married. I'm totally open to it. I think

128
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: at this point in my life, I wonder if I'll

129
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,960
Speaker 1: still do that in my life, and it's sort of yes.

130
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 1: If it happens, it happens. If not, I guess I

131
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 1: have to be okay with it. I don't talk a

132
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: ton about my romantic life on the podcast. I like

133
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: to keep that private, but I will say that I

134
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 1: was engaged and I never got married, and I think

135
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,520
Speaker 1: what I learned from that experience was that there are

136
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 1: lots of different kinds of love that you can have,

137
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 1: and there are lots of different kinds of partnerships that

138
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: you can have, and there are lots of different kinds

139
00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,120
Speaker 1: of ways that you can that people can feel romantically fulfilled,

140
00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: and that marriage is one of them. But it's just

141
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 1: one of many. And I think, you know, growing up

142
00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: in the South, it's uh for me, it felt a

143
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: tough unusual two not be married. When I was a

144
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 1: bit younger, I remember thinking when I would seeing my

145
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 1: my very young classmates get paired off and and buy

146
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,520
Speaker 1: homes and all of that I remember feeling deep down

147
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 1: in my bones that even if I wanted it, that

148
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 1: probably would never be me. And I didn't know why.

149
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 1: I didn't know, I didn't know where that feeling was

150
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 1: coming from. I just sort of knew it. I knew

151
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 1: that that life I probably would never have that life,

152
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 1: and I thought I would stay up late and think,

153
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, I probably will be alone forever and so

154
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,320
Speaker 1: very it's a very heavy kind of person that thinks

155
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,240
Speaker 1: that when they're like, yeah, yeah, but yeah, So as

156
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: I've gotten older, I mean, this is making me sound

157
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: very tortured, but yeah, I'm I'm as Carrie Bradshaw would say,

158
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 1: I am open for love, ready for love, all of that,

159
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 1: all of that nonsense. But yeah, I guess I guess

160
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 1: to be someone who is and I hate to use

161
00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 1: this word, and please don't crucify me, but older, I

162
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 1: feel older. I went to the doctor recently and she

163
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: asked if I was planning to have kids, and I said,

164
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,439
Speaker 1: I've always wanted to. She gave me a pamphlet about

165
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 1: childbearing later in life and I said, oh, no, this

166
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,680
Speaker 1: isn't for me. I'm I'm in my thirties. And she said, well,

167
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: and then she just kind of trailed off. I was like, Oh,

168
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 1: I get what you're get what you're thank you for that.

169
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: So I think for me, it's like I have to

170
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 1: sort of just be okay with it. It has to

171
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 1: not be a heavy burden in my life, and I

172
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 1: have to surround myself with people who understand that and

173
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 1: understand that it's not something that I'm choosing to be

174
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 1: stressed out about. There are plenty of things in my

175
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:38,719
Speaker 1: life to be stressed at about whether or not I'll

176
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,480
Speaker 1: get married. I gotta like that, I gotta prioritize it.

177
00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, long story short, I'm miserable that I'm kidding

178
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 1: my life is fine. I also get um a lot

179
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 1: of times when I say I'm not interested in getting

180
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 1: married or it's not really for me. A lot of

181
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,680
Speaker 1: people immediately asked me like, well, who hurt you? As

182
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,920
Speaker 1: if I, what do you drake? Annie? Who wounded you?

183
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,080
Speaker 1: Tell me Annie? You wounded? It was he had this

184
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,559
Speaker 1: song and it stayed with me. And I do have

185
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:19,320
Speaker 1: things that I no or not like healthy outlooks on marriage.

186
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 1: If I ever get married, I'm having my own separate

187
00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 1: finances and that's just that's how it is. But it's

188
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,960
Speaker 1: not I'm not some damaged person, just like I can't

189
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,960
Speaker 1: do it because this gentleman in my youth burned me

190
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,920
Speaker 1: so hard. People are always looking for what's wrong with you?

191
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,119
Speaker 1: Why is it that you don't want this? And similarly

192
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,000
Speaker 1: for me, I'm like, I'm not totally against it, but

193
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 1: it's not a priority. It's very similar, like I don't know, yeah,

194
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of like what you were saying with your your

195
00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,080
Speaker 1: friend group, My parents have kind of an intense marriage,

196
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 1: and I kind of grew up absorbing these signals that

197
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,560
Speaker 1: marriage was something that added chaos to your life and

198
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 1: added stress and added difficulty to your life, Like that

199
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 1: was the model of marriage that was presented to me,

200
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: that it made your life harder, it was something to

201
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 1: be endured, and I think it was because of that,

202
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 1: it was something that was sort of easy to kind

203
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:23,400
Speaker 1: of not prioritize. Yeah, you you learned the tools of

204
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: relationships from the relationships you observe. I don't remember who

205
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 1: said that, but someone said that it might have been

206
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 1: Christian and Caroline from this show. Um. Another thing too

207
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 1: with my friend group that I mentioned, none of them

208
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,440
Speaker 1: are married, none of them are close to get married,

209
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 1: So I don't have the friend pressure yet. I have

210
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,199
Speaker 1: a secondary friend group that I'm not as close to,

211
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: and they're all married with kids and houses, and every

212
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 1: time I hang out with them, I do feel a

213
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 1: little out of place. But I usually end up having

214
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,400
Speaker 1: a great time if we go out to bars, because

215
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 1: I get to go out and flirt with everybody and

216
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,199
Speaker 1: they have to stay in their group. I'm like, there's

217
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: a hot person over there. I'll be back in twenty minutes.

218
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 1: But I don't have that like friend pressure yet. And

219
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,760
Speaker 1: I do think of what what's going to happen if

220
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,760
Speaker 1: if they all start getting married, it will definitely change

221
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: the dynamic. And again, this is something we've discussed on

222
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,199
Speaker 1: this show before. UM You and Emily interviewed Jill Philipovic,

223
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,440
Speaker 1: Christening Caroline um interviewed Meg Keene, founder of a Practical Wedding.

224
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: It's a question we struggle with UM as women. How

225
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 1: do we make these marriages work? Anybody? Really marriages are

226
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 1: difficult at the end. I think we mix up the

227
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,199
Speaker 1: wedding of the marriage, especially in United States. Oh God,

228
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,680
Speaker 1: I could talk all day about that. Also, I have

229
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who get engaged and it's like,

230
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 1: I mean I love them, but it's like, no one's

231
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,400
Speaker 1: ever been engaged, are like coming soon. It's like it

232
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,240
Speaker 1: has to be, you know, it's such a production and

233
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do we get it, you know, we get it,

234
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 1: we get it, we get it. Bobuster movie. Yeah. And

235
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,640
Speaker 1: so that's so that's irritating. But what's also irritating is

236
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,160
Speaker 1: this thing celebrities do you where they get they get

237
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 1: engaged and they're like, oh, we're doing it very private,

238
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,839
Speaker 1: and then they still like post on Instagrams. Was like

239
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 1: by virtue, I like, you can't, you can you don't

240
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,199
Speaker 1: get brownie points for having a like private, understated engagement

241
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,200
Speaker 1: and then also reveal that you did, and then like

242
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:22,920
Speaker 1: want which is it? That's true especially with social media,

243
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 1: that it's it's gone to a whole another level. Speaking

244
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,320
Speaker 1: of mixing up the wedding with marriage, I have this

245
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 1: quote from um Psychology Today, which describes the wedding of

246
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 1: the Slayer Sexist beyond parody. The bride appears in a

247
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,679
Speaker 1: fussy white dress that symbolizes her virtue and virginity, and

248
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,439
Speaker 1: everyone keeps on remarking on how thin and beautiful she looks.

249
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,559
Speaker 1: Her father walks her down the aisle to give her away,

250
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,320
Speaker 1: and she passes like property from one man to another.

251
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: The minister, who is traditionally a man, gives the man

252
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,720
Speaker 1: permission to kiss the woman, as if that is the

253
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,680
Speaker 1: minister's authority, the woman has none. The man kisses, the

254
00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 1: woman is kissed. At the reception, only men are given

255
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: to speak, while the bride remains seated and silent. Henceforth,

256
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 1: the woman will adopt the man's name, as will their

257
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,560
Speaker 1: eventual offspring. Despite all this, the wedding day is said

258
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 1: to belong to the woman. This would you believe is

259
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 1: her day? Yeah? When you break it down like that,

260
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 1: weddings are weird. They really are. Um And in defense

261
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 1: of the wedding, I know a lot of people now

262
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 1: are customizing it. They're they're stepping away from this, they're

263
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 1: not following these norms to that extent. And or I've

264
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 1: read somebody who's kind of giving a counter argument to

265
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 1: this that like when you see somebody in a white dress,

266
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 1: you no longer think, oh, she must be a virgin. Yeah,

267
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 1: that's I mean, they make they make white wedding dresses

268
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,640
Speaker 1: for pregnant women who are getting married while while they're expecting.

269
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 1: I mean I think we I hope, I hope we've

270
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: abandoned that idea. It's like I think she might have

271
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 1: already had sex. She's nine months of pregnant. Yeah, I

272
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,400
Speaker 1: hope so I do. Remember my mom, Oh Mom, please

273
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 1: don't yell at me for this. She doesn't most for

274
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: the show. She showed me her wedding dress once and

275
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: she said in such like a funny conspiratorial voice, it's

276
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: off And I didn't know what that meant. Okay, that's

277
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 1: such a nice, nice like eupheanism, young Annie. I was like, okay, Mom.

278
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 1: That article also asked a question that um, we'll have

279
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,320
Speaker 1: to come back to. We've talked about it several times,

280
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 1: off off Mike. In the US, why does the separation

281
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,160
Speaker 1: of church and state go out the window when it

282
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 1: comes to marriage? Oh? This is you know, this is

283
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 1: a pet peeve of mine. Yeah, I don't think that.

284
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: I mean, marriage is essentially a contract with the state, right.

285
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions about the role of

286
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 1: religion in marriages and how it shows up in our

287
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 1: wedding ceremonies. Yes, I do as well. And it's kind

288
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 1: of like the state sanctions of private relationship with benefits

289
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,000
Speaker 1: like health care, tax breaks, basically saying this one relationship,

290
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,560
Speaker 1: this one way of life is better than any other.

291
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 1: And it's been that way throughout time, think of anti

292
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 1: misgenation laws or the fact that gay marriage is not

293
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: equally accessible or it hasn't been um and the whole

294
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: thing has to do with raising children, very simplified and

295
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: what the government has deemed as the best bet for

296
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 1: doing so without needing social assistance. And it goes way

297
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 1: back to the church, church with a big sea pushing

298
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,560
Speaker 1: the same thing. So they wouldn't have to pay for

299
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 1: kids born out of wedlock. They wanted to stable family

300
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 1: to raise the kids, so they wouldn't have to provide

301
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 1: any monetary funds for said child. Definitely a future episode. Yes,

302
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: we we've talked about this, like you said, off off Mike,

303
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 1: but when you think about the way that religion it

304
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,320
Speaker 1: shows up and what is essentially a contract with the date,

305
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 1: it really it really raises some questions. It does, and

306
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 1: you can go and get a courthouse wedding, you don't

307
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,239
Speaker 1: have to do the church thing, but it's just so

308
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 1: in grains in our culture. It's kind of interesting in

309
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 1: terms of sort of nontraditional weddings. I actually have a

310
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,359
Speaker 1: policy in my life where I won't attend a wedding

311
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 1: doesn't have an open bar. So you want me at

312
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 1: your wedding, I consider I consider a wedding with a

313
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,439
Speaker 1: cash bar nontraditional, and I will not attend. How I

314
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 1: was raised, I will say that you and I might

315
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 1: be on the same page because I always look first like,

316
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,240
Speaker 1: is it an open bar? Cash bar? Invite right in

317
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 1: the trash, right in the trash. I my my mom's

318
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: side of the family is known to be big drinkers,

319
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: and uh, my cousin's wedding, we got kicked out of

320
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: the church. Oh my god, wedding must have been lit.

321
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 1: It was fun. I was having I don't know what

322
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: went wrong. I was having the time of my life.

323
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 1: And then the next thing I know, it's like everybody

324
00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 1: out to clear out. To this day, I'm not sure

325
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: we all scattered. Fun wedding memorable. Another article I found

326
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,520
Speaker 1: called how to Have a Feminist Wedding out of The Guardian,

327
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,640
Speaker 1: talked about the things I, as an unmarried woman, had

328
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 1: no idea about, including bridle underwear, brides right in about

329
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,080
Speaker 1: that um and the constant question about um. When wedding

330
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,920
Speaker 1: dress shopping, how much weight are you planning to lose?

331
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,199
Speaker 1: You also be charged extra for any alterations due to

332
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 1: quote last minute weight loss. And you look two size

333
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,159
Speaker 1: as smaller than you did when you first walked in.

334
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,320
Speaker 1: And that's no bad thing. Is something that a lot

335
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: of like what a wedding dress changing rooms have. UM,

336
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 1: it sort of undermines that whole I love you for you,

337
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 1: no matter what thing. It's just it is bizarre and

338
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 1: we have so many weird things. I mean, anybody out

339
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 1: there who's planning a wedding can tell you that the

340
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 1: second wedding is attached to something. It's like twice the

341
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,120
Speaker 1: price you buy a white dress from Macy's. If it's

342
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,159
Speaker 1: the same dress, but it's a wedding dress, I have

343
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: to up the price. Yeah. Really, it's such a racket.

344
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: And we if we just have so many just accepted

345
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: weird customs when weddings are in the midst we absolutely do,

346
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 1: and it's I Another thing that I thought was very

347
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: strange is that a woman is supposed to plan every

348
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,640
Speaker 1: aspect of the wedding and it's always assumed she will.

349
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,960
Speaker 1: I read a lot of accounts of this where the

350
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 1: man is planning something that they just addressed the woman

351
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 1: because they assume it's she must be the one planning

352
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: it in this heteronormative marriage. But if she goes overboard

353
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: in that planning, she's a bridezilla. So it's like, you

354
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: have to plan everything but be cool. Okay, Well, that's

355
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 1: just another way that women are are straddled with these

356
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 1: completely unrealistic and also opposing norms that you have to

357
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,119
Speaker 1: you have to do all the planning, but if you

358
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 1: can so you know, take the lead, get the bind

359
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: or whatever. And if you do it too much, that's bad.

360
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 1: So not doing it at all, that's no good. Doing

361
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: it too much? Also no good. Do you have to

362
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: find this perfect like Goldilocks area in the middle of

363
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 1: your doing all the work, but you're acting super to

364
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: all about it and you really don't care. How can

365
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,440
Speaker 1: you know it's too much? That dreaded cool girl stereotype.

366
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: Got to do that. I know. I can't wait to

367
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: do that one. Are you a cool girl? Is anyone

368
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,160
Speaker 1: a cool girl? Bridget I think people might think I'm

369
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 1: a cool girl. In reality, I'm the least chill person

370
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: on earth. I have a similar thing, but it's more

371
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: that like I uh think of gone girl had that

372
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,119
Speaker 1: definition of a cool girl, and it's the girl that

373
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,719
Speaker 1: will go out and drink pearce with you and get

374
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: a hamburger with you. And somehow I'm still a size too.

375
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: I'm that and then I'm like eating way too much

376
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: and drinking too much with people. But when I'm home,

377
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 1: I'm like super healthy and very tame. So my outward

378
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 1: like social presentation, I guess is the cool girl, but

379
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 1: I'm not because I don't know that that exists. Yeah,

380
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,239
Speaker 1: I'm in that definition. I am cool girl, and that

381
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: I will go to a diet bar and drink you

382
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 1: under the table, but I will complain the entire time,

383
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: and I will it will not eat chill at all.

384
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: The uncool girl. I'm happy to be that. That's fine. Yeah,

385
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 1: that's that's great. So in the US, as of a

386
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 1: divorce takes place every thirty six seconds of marriages. So

387
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 1: how in the world are people making this work? How

388
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 1: does one be married? And to answer this question, we

389
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: are getting to this the interview portion of the show.

390
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,719
Speaker 1: We're speaking with Joe Piazza, who has done a lot

391
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: more research on this than either Bridget or I have. Um.

392
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 1: She's written aboot called how to be Married, as we mentioned,

393
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: and in her words, she wrote it because as a

394
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: thirty four year old feminist, I had no idea how

395
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: the f to be married, to be a wife and

396
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,880
Speaker 1: a partner. I tried to explore the concept of how

397
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: to be a wife and a feminist and how to

398
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: have a marriage of equals. So we're gonna take a

399
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: quick break for an ad and then we'll jump right

400
00:21:48,320 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 1: into the interview. And we're here now with Joe Piat So,

401
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Joe, thank you

402
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 1: guys for having me. So first off, a tough question,

403
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I ken, Yeah.

404
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 1: So I'm actually the host of a brand new podcast

405
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: called Committed, where we talked about all things marriage and

406
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: people people have been asking me. They're like, why is

407
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: it called committed? And I'm like, well, doesn't being married

408
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: sometimes kind of feel like being in an insane asylum?

409
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, yeah, it does. Um, But it

410
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: came about I'm a journalist and an author, and you know,

411
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: I've been a journalist since I've been a grown up

412
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: and writing books almost that long. And when I got married.

413
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: I was kind of old. You know, I was on

414
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: the geriatric side for most of America, which isn't that

415
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: old for other people. But I was thirty five and

416
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: I was the last of my friends to get married.

417
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: So I was kind of like the Jennifer Aniston of

418
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: my friend group, like I was happy with my life,

419
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: but everyone else was sad for me. And then when

420
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: I got engaged to this great guy who showed up

421
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: that of nowhere, I realized I had no idea how

422
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: to be a wife, or how to be married, or

423
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do to be be in a couple.

424
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: And I wrote this book called how to Be Married.

425
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: I kind of I still don't know if I love

426
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: the title, but that was the title where I asked

427
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: women all over the world, how the hell do I

428
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: do this? And so it was very fancy frenchwomen, women

429
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: in polygamous tribes in Kenya and Tanzania, Orthodox Jewish women

430
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: in Jerusalem, and compiled this into one book where we

431
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: just talked about marriage that wasn't total byes. I mean

432
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: marriage off of Instagram, so there's no hashtag couple of

433
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: goals or you know, sweetly fakely post date nights. It's

434
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: like the nitty gritty of what's this is really like?

435
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: And I'd like to think of it as a a

436
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: feminists guide to figuring out how to be a wife.

437
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: So that brings me to my burden question, how do

438
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: you be married? How do you be a spouse in

439
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 1: this country? You know, I still have no clue. That's

440
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: and that's the problem. Um. It was really funny on

441
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: my on my book tour last year, people kept billing

442
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: me as a relationship expert, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no,

443
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: anyone anyone who calls themselves a relationship expert probably doesn't

444
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: know anything and they're definitely divorced. I'm just a journalist

445
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: who was asking the questions. But I have a lot

446
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: of answers. But I don't have all of the answers. Uh.

447
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: The one thing that I found out that was really

448
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: interesting is that we have way too many expectations around

449
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: marriage in this country. And it comes out of the

450
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: fact that we're kind of schizophrenic about what marriage even

451
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: means now because it's changed so much from what it's

452
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: meant for all of human straight which was essentially just

453
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: a legal way for a man to get a female place,

454
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: it was transactions in nature romance, so romantic, right, but

455
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: it's true. Um, it was a father essentially selling his

456
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: daughter to a husband, and the woman would serve the man.

457
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: And that's that's what marriage has been, and that's what

458
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: those roles have been defined as for all of human history.

459
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: Still in a lot of parts of the world, that's

460
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: exactly what still happens and until maybe twenty years ago.

461
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: And so now that we have marriages where people are

462
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: actually in love, where people are equal partners, where and

463
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: in a lot of my friends marriages the woman actually

464
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: makes more money than the man. We don't know how

465
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: we're supposed to act or how we're supposed to operate,

466
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: and we have all of these crazy expectations. The biggest

467
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: problem with American marriage, I learned is that we think

468
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: that our scout because are everything. But there are best friends,

469
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: the greatest sex we've ever had, our soulmate, our tennis partner,

470
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: are running buddy, our therapist, the person who tells us

471
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: our but looks cute, and our new genes even when

472
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't. And one person can't be everything, and when

473
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: that person fails to be everything, we get pissed and

474
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: we think that our marriage isn't working. And that's the

475
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: story that I hear over and over from Mormon. Yeah,

476
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: I do think we kind of normalize this idea that

477
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: when you marry, you were marrying the person who's going

478
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: to be everything in your life. And so the role

479
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: of your girlfriends or your buddies or your work wife, whatever,

480
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: all of those roles kind of become I don't want

481
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: to say a race, but diminished because now you have

482
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: a husband and that person is supposed to be your

483
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: end all be all, And yeah, it's just it's not true,

484
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: and it's also not realistic. No, and it's not and

485
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: it's not healthy. And pop culture does does nothing but

486
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: promote that idea. I mean, The Bachelor is still one

487
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: of the highest rated shows on network television, and even

488
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: Sex in the City, which build itself as being the

489
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: feminist phenomenon. Three of the four characters on that show

490
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: ended up married by the end of the series, and frankly,

491
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: Samantha was the only one who was allowed to not

492
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: be married because she was quote unquote the flood. Like,

493
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: we're still a culture that says Mary is going to

494
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: fix everything. All you need is a husband and all

495
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: your problems are going to go away. Yeah, and and

496
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: to go back to your sex in the city. Example.

497
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 1: Even at the end of the series, they kind of

498
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: seemed to be flirting with the idea that her and

499
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: who's the really hot guy she was dating? J Yeah,

500
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: M yeah, they kind of they kind of teased the

501
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: idea that she had found her quote one and only,

502
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,719
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, oh, brother, like nobody in this

503
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: show can get past the idea that everybody has this

504
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: one perfect person for them and when they link up

505
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: with them, poof, all their problems are solved. Yeah, athlete exactly.

506
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: It was such a bummer for a show that claimed

507
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: it was so female forward and such a feminist show

508
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, no, the answer to everything

509
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: on that show was a man has to love you,

510
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: that whole pop culture thing. I didn't realize how much

511
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: for me until I started working on this show, and

512
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: we talked about that a lot, about how the audience

513
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: of this show has been really like transformative and helpful

514
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: for me as a person. But somebody wrote in a

515
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: comment once like, we need to stop defining success is

516
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,959
Speaker 1: only this one thing is in You get married and

517
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: you have the two kids, and you get the house,

518
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: and you have the pet, you have the job, and

519
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: that is success and that is the only thing, because

520
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: we see that over and over again in pop culture.

521
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: If you don't have that, then something is missing from

522
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: your life. Oh exactly. I mean. I I wrote in

523
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: my book How to Be Married that I got more

524
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: likes on my Facebook status when I got engaged than

525
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: I did when I published a book or a second

526
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: book or a third book. Like everyone thought that this

527
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: was the biggest thing I'd ever done in my entire life,

528
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: and this important thing compared to all of these professional

529
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: achievements that I've had the thirty five years prior to

530
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: just meeting some dude. That's amazing that you even say

531
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: that I have. I have a lot of friends who

532
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: sort of work as digital strategists and social media managers,

533
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: and they've actually done studies. When you say things like

534
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: if you made a Facebook post it was like I'm

535
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: engaged in a huge book project. I want to tell

536
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: you about actually privileged that post and more people will

537
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: see it because they think, oh, she just got engaged.

538
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: Huge news. So even Mark Zuckerberg is controlling how we

539
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: think about Mary. All I want to do is tricks

540
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: Facebook on a daily basis. So I'm like, look at

541
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: my new baby, this book Charlotte Walks like to win

542
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: by it now on it. That's awesome. But it has

543
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: been really interesting just hearing the stories and so now

544
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: that now that I am married, and now that I

545
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: want to create this marriage of equals for which there's

546
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: really there aren't role models out there for it because

547
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: we're the first generation or like essentially like the second

548
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: and third generation that are really doing this. My mom

549
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: certainly was not in the marriage of equals. Um, I

550
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: know that my grandmother wasn't. So now that I'm doing this,

551
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really just trial and error. And that's

552
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: why the stories of how other people make marriage work,

553
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: like the nitty gritty that like the good, the bad,

554
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: the really really ugly. I find that so helpful because,

555
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: especially going back to social media, always see on social

556
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: media are people looking perfect and looking filtered, and that

557
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 1: all of their relationships are super happy. And my friends

558
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: who post the most with their husbands and boyfriends on

559
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: social media are the ones that I know are probably

560
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: getting divorced, so they've actually done studies. According to a

561
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: study recently published by the Personality and Social Psychology bulletin

562
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: Couples who are always racking about their significant other on

563
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: social media, the hubby, the hubster, all of that, Well,

564
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: they're actually more likely to be insecure of the state

565
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: of their relationships. So the more you're posting, the more

566
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: you can't get enough of your hashtag bay or whatever,

567
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: the more likely, according to this data, you are to

568
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: be in a relationship that you feel insecure about totally.

569
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: And I want to ban the word hubby so gross.

570
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: I've had to make a bunch of new friends since

571
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: I moved from New York to San Francisco, and that's

572
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: one of my friend red flag. I if you're a

573
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: woman who uses the word hobby, I'm like, we're not

574
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: going to hang out again. Well, you bring up a

575
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: good point. I mean, why do you think that, especially

576
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: women feel this need to depict a version of their

577
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: romantic situations, romantic lives and marriages and what have you

578
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: on social media. I actually feel quite a bit of

579
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: pressure to do that, And I wonder where do you

580
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: think that comes from. I think it comes from pop culture,

581
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: I really do. Pop culture has programmed us and has

582
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: told us that our marriage, our husband is the important

583
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: thing about us. And that we need to show the

584
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: world that we're quote unquote succeeding at this thing. And

585
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: it's so sad because I would love to just post

586
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: pictures of me like at the computer finishing a book

587
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: or at the office having a big meeting. But you know,

588
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: no one, no one is going to like that as

589
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: much as like this picture of my husband doing the dishes,

590
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: which which he does do because we have an equal

591
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: marriage because he's a feminist man. But yeah, I totally

592
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: I blame I'd blame pop culture for all of it.

593
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Pop culture has programmed us, and now we're trying to

594
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: deprogram us to prioritize what we should be prioritizing in

595
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: our lives. And that's not to say that marriage isn't

596
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: great and awesome. I love being married, but it is

597
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: a struggle to figure out how marriage works for you

598
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: as opposed to these role models that we've seen in

599
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: the past. That's so funny you bring up the dishes,

600
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: because I once was in a relationship where I told

601
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: the guy at the beginning the relationship, I will cook,

602
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: but you to do the dishes, and lo and behold,

603
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: it becomes more and more that I am doing the dishes,

604
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: and I wrote a thirty page essay called apologist theory

605
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: and why you have to do the dishes and I

606
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: never gave We just broke up. I realized that I

607
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: was taking it too far. But I'd really I'd really

608
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: like you to publish that somewhere because I think that's

609
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that would go virals. Yeah, that's

610
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: also the most anything I've ever heard. Um also, can

611
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: I just says this as a side note, I have

612
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: a theory about dishes. I will never This is a

613
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: very privileged thing to say. I will never live in

614
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: another living quarters of any kind that does not have

615
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: a dishwasher. I moved into an apartment recently that did

616
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: not have one, and I was like, I have to

617
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: pay to have one installed. I don't care. I think

618
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: not having a dishwasher is a It's like you're asking

619
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: for your relationship to be doomed, because there are few

620
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: types of people in this world. People who let the

621
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: dishes linger after a meal, people who want to do

622
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: them right away. And if you're not, if you're not compatible,

623
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: you're asking for trouble. Get a dishwasher. That is a

624
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: Bridget's tip for life. I think that's a great for

625
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: happy marriage. Exactly, get a damn dishwasher. I know, knowing me,

626
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: it'll be get a dishwasher, separate bathrooms. By the end

627
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: of it. It's like, don't live like just live across

628
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: the street, don't even live you that's just like Woody

629
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: Allen and me a pharaoh live across the park and

630
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: we now exactly, Yeah, I have a I have a

631
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: really funny dishes story. So one of the couples that

632
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: I interview on this podcast committed she has no short

633
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 1: term memory. So she had a stroke and now she

634
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: has almost permanent um short term amnesia. So there's this

635
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: one story where she was doing the dishes and she

636
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: looks at her husband and she's like, how long have

637
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: I been doing the dishes every night because she didn't remember,

638
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: and he's like, just you know, a few months because

639
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: every night he's like, hi, it's she'd turning to deep

640
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: the dishes, and she's like, Okay, I guess you must

641
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: have done it last night. I can't remember because I

642
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: have no short term memory. Pretty awesome, Pretty awesome. That

643
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: made me wish that sometimes my husband would have famnisia.

644
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: But then I'm like, I think I've just seen the

645
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: movie Overboard too many times, a classic of the genre. Oh,

646
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: it's so good, It's so so good. Um. Through I'm

647
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: situated in a place where I can hear what what

648
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: episodes were committed, Um, the editors are working on. So

649
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: I've heard like snippets of interesting stories that you've gotten.

650
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit, give us a preview

651
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: of what kind of stories will be hearing on this podcast. Yeah.

652
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: So the goal was committed was to have an open

653
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: conversation about marriage, Like I said, to talk about the

654
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: nitty gritty, the hard stuff, but also to find couples

655
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: that are in these interesting relationships. So that ranges from

656
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: everything to a couple where one person no longer has

657
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: a short term memory, to a couple of porn stars

658
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: who are monogamous in her marriage but they're still having

659
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: sex with other people on screen. We have a couple

660
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: who've been married for twenty eight years and they're the

661
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: longest married couple with Down syndrome. And I mean I

662
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: cried probably half a dozen times doing this interview with

663
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: them because they're just the most in love, happiest couple

664
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: I've ever met. Because they're constantly living in the presence.

665
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: They're just they're not worried about what's going to happen

666
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: tomorrow or what happened yesterday. They're just madly in love

667
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: with each other in the here and now, and it's

668
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: it's really amazing. One of our earliest episodes is a

669
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 1: couple that was blown up together in the Boston Marathon

670
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: bombing and both of them lost their legs, Just lost

671
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: both legs, Patrick lost one leg. And they've only been

672
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: married seven months, and this is how they kind of

673
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: learned how to be married while going through this really

674
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: tragic thing with each other. And so there's a lot

675
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: of heartbreak, there's a lot of tragedy, and then there's

676
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: a lot of really uplifting stories. I think that it's

677
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: a pretty good mix. I just finished up an episode

678
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: today about a married couple of journalists to our rivals

679
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: at different newspapers. They both cover baseball, but one covers

680
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: it for the San Francisco Chronicle and one covers it

681
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: for the San Jose Mercury News. And it's actually the

682
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: woman who's a much much better baseball reporter, and how

683
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: their marriage survives this competitive workplace environment, which was really fun.

684
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: And they're awesome. And I got to go to an

685
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: AA's game and hang out in the sports writer's box

686
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: for that one, and so it was great. And we're

687
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: just we're constantly looking for news stories. It's incredible. But

688
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: we're getting emails every day from couples who are like,

689
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: I want to tell you about my own marriage. And

690
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: that's the part that's so cool, because I think that

691
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: every marriage has a story and it's our goal to

692
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: to bring them out and to try to tell them.

693
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: Feel hear more from Joe. After a quick break and

694
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: we're back, Let's get right back to Joe. So I

695
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: want to switch gears for a minute. Something that I

696
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: often here repeated as this idea that half of marriage

697
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: is in in divorce. Is that still true? Like, where

698
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: are we at with the state of marriage? Is sort

699
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: of nationally, it's still true. And the interesting thing I

700
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: learned is that half of marriage is and in divorce

701
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: in the US, and also in countries that are more

702
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: progressive about marriage, that are less obsessed with marriage, like

703
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: the Northern European countries, half of those marriages and then

704
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: divorced too. And I think that has to do with

705
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: the fact that human beings really aren't programmed for monogamy.

706
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: We try really hard. There's a lot of studies that

707
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: say monogamy is good for a society. I think that

708
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: those studies were probably written by men for whom it

709
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: was easier to be married than not married. But yeah,

710
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: it's still it's still fifty in the majority of countries

711
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: that have marriage where a person gets to choose their spouse. Now,

712
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: if you go to a country where marriage is arranged,

713
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: that number is definitely not But those countries also tend

714
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: to have negative attitudes towards divorce. Yeah, this is actually

715
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: the thing that you just mentioned about, sort of the

716
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: divorce rates. This is one of the biggest reasons that

717
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: I feel a bit ambivalent around marriage, because it just

718
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: seems like marriage and the act of getting married is

719
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: such a huge undertaking and it it can be. I

720
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: guess it doesn't have to be. But part of me

721
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: is like, if it's just a dice roll, it's going

722
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: to work out or not, what's the difference? You know, Like,

723
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: there are other things in life that if it's completion

724
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: rate was that was why bother? You know, It's like

725
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: if that was anything else, if it was you know,

726
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: if I was gonna a long car trip and it

727
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: was make it. I probably wouldn't go, you know, you

728
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't get an you wouldn't get in that car. No.

729
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: The reason that I don't go windsurfing because they're like,

730
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: it's fifty fifty that you're not going to survive this way,

731
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: so you can you can get married, or you could

732
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: go windsurfing. I could get married or I could go windsurfing,

733
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: and they're both probably going to end badly, you know.

734
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: And so in other countries that I visited, and I

735
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: was in France and Sweden and Denmark in the Netherlands,

736
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: in those countries, their way more relaxed about getting married.

737
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: It's like we could get married, we can not get married,

738
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: we could just be partners forever. It's also often the

739
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: woman that is holding holding all of the cards and

740
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: that she's the one like, all right now we can

741
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: get married, like it's not that the guy gets to

742
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: choose to win to propose. And then they also have

743
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: way more chill weddings. So we're in Copenhagen and most

744
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: people just get married in city hall in life jeans

745
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: and a T shirt and then they go out for

746
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: beers afterwards and I'm like, this is the most civilized

747
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: country in the world. This is fantastic. And the city

748
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: hall also serves these delicious little pancakes when people are

749
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: getting married, and I'm just like, if our city halls

750
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: are cakes, I would get married every weekend because these

751
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: are the best pancakes I've ever had. But like, we

752
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: invest so much money in this ridiculous wedding, this one

753
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: day for something that has a fifty chance of failing,

754
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: and I think that scares a lot of people, and

755
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: I know it scared me. And we're also from a

756
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: generation where all of our parents got divorced. Like my

757
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: parents didn't, but they should have. They hated each other.

758
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: And but all of my friends at school like had

759
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: the dad that lived in the condominium complex with the pool,

760
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: like on the other side of town, because no one

761
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: was married anymore. So I think it's scary, and I

762
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: think we don't talk enough about what happens when marriages

763
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: do fail, and we really think of divorces this terrible thing,

764
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: and the stigma here in the States. One of the

765
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: other cool things about Denmark was that they don't think

766
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: of divorce is a bad thing. They're just like, you know,

767
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: you had a relationship and it was great, but it

768
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 1: didn't last forever. Uh, it's really easy to get divorced

769
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: in Denmark. It's cheap. You can do it online and couples.

770
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm not some that celebrate their divorce adversary where everyone

771
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: just kind of gets together and hang out, because why

772
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: did you spend your life with this person or think

773
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: you want to spend your life with this person and

774
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: then decide to hate them forever. So I blame the

775
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: States too, and pop culture. I blame my racing the

776
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: pop culture, I really do, for making divorce seemed like

777
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: it has to be this terrible thing, so we go

778
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: into it thinking, oh my god, this has to suck,

779
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: this has to be the worst thing that ever happens

780
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: to me. And maybe divorce isn't the worst thing, Like

781
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't be with someone for ten years, and

782
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: then maybe you should be with someone else, and maybe

783
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 1: it's okay that you're no longer married to that person.

784
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: I think that would make it a lot less scary

785
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: to get married if we didn't think that divorce was

786
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: the worst thing that was ever going to happen to us. Yeah,

787
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: as we record this, I am not big into British

788
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: ruralsy at all, So I'm probably gonna mess this up.

789
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: But they keep talking about how she is it her

790
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: who's had the divorce. One of them I know a

791
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: lot about this only because he's marrying a black woman,

792
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: and so I I have given zero about any of

793
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: this my whole life once there was like a black

794
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: woman in the mix. Now I'm an expert, but yes,

795
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: so Megan who he was getting married, she is busting

796
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: norms because she's black, she's older to be an old maid,

797
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: she's been divorced. Also, she was on that show suit

798
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: so the little thing um. But yeah, they're acting like

799
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: it's this she's this like marked scarred woman because she's

800
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: been married before. Like people have acted this as an

801
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: actual criticism that people have hurled at her, Like how

802
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: could Harry this dignified you know British royal? Dang to

803
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: you know himself to let me interject this dignified British

804
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: royal that one showed up at a costume party in

805
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: a Nazi uniform, right, Harry, I was trying to remember

806
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: if that was him earlier today because they were talking

807
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: about the wedding. You're totally right, they're like, oh my gosh,

808
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: she's this marked, cursed woman because she was divorced. It's like,

809
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: come on, it's people. Yeah, And if anything, she should

810
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: be a marked woman because she was on a USA

811
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: drama for a long time. Just kidding. Suit is actually

812
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 1: a good show. It's not like it was a network drama.

813
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: But also also also just kidding, because cable dramas are

814
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: way better than network drama. Accurate, accurate. Yeah, but it

815
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: just I think you're so right that in this country,

816
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: if you are divorced, it's like having a big scarlet

817
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: d on your chest, and it makes it seem like

818
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: you're unworthy or you're a failure, or that something's wrong

819
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: with you. A lot of my friends who have been divorced,

820
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: they actually if someone's like, oh, I'm so sorry to

821
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: hear that, they're like, no, I was. I'm happy that

822
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: I was divorced. I I had a marriage that wasn't good,

823
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: and I'm happy that I found the courage and the

824
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: strength to get out of it, as opposed to staying

825
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: in it and being miserable and just sort of thinking

826
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: all your self worth into not wanting to you know,

827
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: reverse that that choice. Yeah, And I think if we

828
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: didn't have a stigma against divorce, which a lot of

829
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: countries don't have a stigma against divorce. We can maybe

830
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: just enjoy these parts of our marriage that we're really

831
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: good and realize, hey, maybe at a different stage in

832
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: our life, maybe when we're not raising children, maybe when

833
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: I switched careers, like I might want to be married

834
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: to someone else. And I know that sounds almost radical

835
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 1: to say, and I'm almost uncomfortable saying it because I've

836
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: been so industrinated into American pop culture. But I think

837
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: if we could just be a little bit more relaxed

838
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: about the whole thing and realize that marriage isn't a

839
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: fairy tale, it's not our happily ever after, and it

840
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: doesn't have to last forever, then we would just be

841
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: less afraid and we wouldn't beee like a failure. If

842
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: you get divorced. I mean you shouldn't. It's just another

843
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: stage in your life. It's not it's not that big deal.

844
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: But literally, everything in pop culture tells us that divorce

845
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: is awful, that it's the worst thing. Ever, So how

846
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: do we so this all sounds great in theory, how

847
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: do we actually go about the process of un learning

848
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: all of this stigmatizing, heavy crap that we've all been

849
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: absorbing about marriage and divorce pretty much all of our lives.

850
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: It's so hard. It's really hard. I was having a

851
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: conversation with an agent in l A. I have this

852
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: other book, it's a political novel coming out called Charlotte

853
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: Walsh Likes to Win. And this agent was telling me,

854
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: she's like I when Hillary Clinton lost, I blamed Hollywood.

855
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: I blamed Hollywood because pop culture has told us for

856
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: so long that there's things that a woman can't do,

857
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: and we've essentially programmed America to believe that a woman

858
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: couldn't be president. And I was like, you're totally right.

859
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 1: And her goal, and I've been talking to her about

860
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: making Charlotte into something, is to create TV and movies

861
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: that d program us. And I think that that's something

862
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: that we really need to think about. How can we

863
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: deprogram our generation? Every generation that's older than us. They

864
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: might kind of be lost to us, but that's okay,

865
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: because you know they'll die sooner than we will. But

866
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: we have to figure out how to create new pop

867
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: culture that will deprogram the next generation. So showing different

868
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: kinds of marriage, showing different kinds of love and that

869
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: started to happen with being really great gay marriage on

870
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: TV and in movies, but they're still so much further

871
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: to go. It's incredible that Prince Harry is marrying a

872
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: divorced actress on a USA drama who's half African American.

873
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: That's awesome, but we just need more of that. And

874
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 1: I think that it's incumbent on creators, people that are

875
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: making books and movies and TV shows and podcasts too.

876
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: The program the culture is that too heavy and ask

877
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: is that a lot? I mean, I'm just a simple podcaster,

878
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: but I'll see what I can do. Thank you, thank

879
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: you for accepting my mission. And that's that's so. That's

880
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that we want to do with

881
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: Committed is we want to show different kinds of marriage

882
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: and different kinds of love, an unexpected marriage, unexpected love,

883
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: to show people that there's not just one way that

884
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: you have to be. One of the couples that we

885
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: have on it's actually well it's not a couple, it's

886
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: a what would you call someone that was three people,

887
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: so a threesome I guess, or triad, but but they're

888
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: not I mean, but not a resom and so they're

889
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: in a polyamorous relationship. And since I live in San Francisco,

890
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: I'm always skeptical when people say they're in a polyamorous

891
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: relationships because in San Francisco people just say it to

892
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: be cool. But I don't think these guys are just

893
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: saying it to be cool. And it's a polyamorous relationship

894
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: led by one of the women. So she's married to

895
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: the man and married to the woman, and she's the

896
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: one with two partners. It's not a man that has

897
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 1: two female partners. And I think that makes it a

898
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: little different. And it's really interesting to not look at

899
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: it in a tabloid, e exploitive kind of way, but

900
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: to dig into how does this work and what does

901
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: it mean for marriage generally to have three people involved.

902
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: And that was an incredible episode because it made me

903
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: want to get a wife. I was like, Oh my god,

904
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: if there could be an extra pair of hands to

905
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: hold this baby and clean these dishes and help us

906
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: with dinner, I'm in. I'm all for polyamory, now bring

907
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 1: it off. Several times on this show, it's a topic

908
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: of interest that the feminist marriage. It's been discussed several

909
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: times with different people, and you've mentioned in a couple

910
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: of times in this conversation. Can you talk about the

911
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: marriage of equals and what it means to be married

912
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: as a feminist? How do you do that? What is

913
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: a feminist marriage? I think it's really hard to have

914
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: what I thought of as a feminist marriage and a

915
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: marriage or equals. I went into my own marriage, and

916
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: I'm really married to the most feminist man in the world.

917
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: Right when he was a kid, he read all of

918
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,479
Speaker 1: the Judy Boom books. I think he read more Duty

919
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: Bloom books than I did. He can quote the book Blubber,

920
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: which is just adorable, and he loves women and he

921
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: loves equality. And it's still a challenge, absolutely every single day.

922
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: Somehow I've still fallen into this gendered role of I'm

923
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: the one that makes all the doctor's appointments, I'm the

924
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: one that is planning for meals. I'm the one who orders.

925
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: I do order the groceries instead of going grocery shopping,

926
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,760
Speaker 1: but I'm still the one that orders them to be delivered.

927
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: And a lot of the feminist writers that I talked

928
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: to when I was writing How to Be Married and

929
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: said the same thing that, like all of a sudden,

930
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: they've they've fallen into these gendered roles without even realizing,

931
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: and the best thing you can do is to talk

932
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: about it. So Nick and I kind of have these

933
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: office hours once a week where it's like we have

934
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: them over a glass of wine, which our therapist said

935
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: not to have them of our glass of wine. But

936
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not not gonna knocking suck my

937
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: husband without drinking a little bit and talk about what's

938
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 1: bugging us. And it came up. I'm like, I started,

939
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: I'm making all but that's disappointments and he didn't even

940
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: realize it. And that's one of the one of the

941
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: things that I've realized about having a feminist marriage is

942
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: that we kind of have to program our husbands that

943
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: it's that it is our job to decide what we

944
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: want our marriage to look like and then to tell

945
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: the men, because men want to be told what to do.

946
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 1: And that's that's my mus my feminist stance on marriage.

947
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: It's to train and program my husband a little bit

948
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 1: like like a dog. And it's worked for me and

949
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: now I have a husband who gets up in the

950
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: middle of the night with the baby and I get

951
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: to sleep the whole night, and he does the dishes,

952
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: and even though I'm making all the doctor's appointments, he

953
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: takes the baby to them. So I think that we've

954
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: done a really good job. We're still probably sixty in

955
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: household duties with me still being sixty, but I think

956
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: it's probably better than most marriages. So I'm curious, do

957
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: you have any insight into how the situation might be

958
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: complicated or made better? You know, it is different in

959
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: same sex marriages, so yeah, same sex marriages have the

960
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: same challenges, even though it's not necessarily a man and

961
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: a woman having an equal marriage. It's really hard and

962
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: it's about communication and expectations and spelling it out. And

963
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: I think this is where non traditional couples, like polyamorous

964
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: couples actually have a small monogamous traditional couples beats, because

965
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: if you're doing something like having three people in your marriage,

966
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: you don't have a choice but to talk about it

967
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: and to explain expectations and have rules and boundaries, and

968
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: people in a more traditional marriage just think, oh my god,

969
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: odd I had this, letting it's going to work out

970
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: everything perfect now, And they don't work on it and

971
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: they're just hard work I think that Ben Afflecks said

972
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: that before he left John Garner for the Nanny, and

973
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 1: you got the kind of tattoo that a kid who

974
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: works at a gas station guests. But it's true. Marriage

975
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: is hard work. You have to work at it, you

976
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: have to talk about it, you have to set goals

977
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: and rules and expectations, or you're I don't think that

978
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: that it's possible to be happy in your marriage unless

979
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: you're putting in the work. So other than that great

980
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: advice that it's just going into it clear eyed knowing

981
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: that it's hard work. What advice do you have people

982
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: out there who maybe are married right now or thinking

983
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: about getting married. My best advice sounds super anti feminist,

984
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: and I wrote it in my book and got so

985
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: much backlash. But you have you have to unpack it,

986
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: you have to dissect it. So I was in Paris

987
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: with all of these very fancy French women, and I'm

988
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: not very fancy at all, but I was. I was

989
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: trying to sit in with them. So I was like

990
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: smoking a long cigarette and balancing a glass of red

991
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: wine on my knee and my notebook on the other

992
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: and and then I spilled the red wine all over myself,

993
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: and they all told me the same thing, that you

994
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: should be your husband's mistress, and I like, the feminist

995
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: side of me is like, oh god, that's disgusting, and

996
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: they're like no, they're like, but he should also be

997
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: your mistress. There's just no good male word for mistress.

998
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: The goal is that you should treat each other the

999
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: way that you treated each other when you were dating,

1000
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: when you were still excited about each other, when you

1001
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: still wanted to have great conversations outside the realm of

1002
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: something gross is in the garmage disposal? Why do the

1003
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: towl smell weird? And what just came out of the

1004
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: baby's but? And so, to be your best person and

1005
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: actually show up in your marriage the way that you

1006
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: did when you were desperately trying to get this person

1007
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: to like you, and it's it doesn't make any sense

1008
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: that we do it the other way around. That once

1009
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 1: we get this person that allegedly we want to spend

1010
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: the rest of our lives with, then we start to

1011
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: treat them like. So I think it is be your

1012
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: husband's mistress and have your husband be your mistress and

1013
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: behave as well as you when you were first dating,

1014
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: because you are on your best behavior, then why do

1015
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: you turn into a jerk after you already land this person? Right?

1016
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: So Committed comes out on June six, uh, and where

1017
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: where can people find you? Where can people learn more

1018
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: about what you're what you're up to? So Committed is

1019
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: going to be on the House Stuff Works Network and

1020
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: it's on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And

1021
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: we're at the website committed pod dot com, and we're

1022
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter as at Committed Pod. And we'll

1023
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: have a lot of updates and short episodes and previews

1024
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: there and we're gonna have a lot of fun. We

1025
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: have a lot of crazy interesting couples. I just got

1026
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: a text right now that we're trying to land a

1027
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: couple of astronauts who are who were never in space

1028
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, and how they make how they

1029
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: make their marriage work when one person is in space.

1030
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: We all need to know, we all need to know

1031
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: we do we do. One of my one of my

1032
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: other favorite episodes actually two married figure skaters, and it's

1033
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 1: my favorite because then I got to watch The Cutting

1034
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: Edge like nine times just to get ready for their interview,

1035
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: and I kept bringing it up to and they're like, oh,

1036
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: but we're real life people, and I'm like, but let's

1037
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 1: talk about this romantic comedy from the Early Night because

1038
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: that that's like a documentary, right, It's essentially a documentary. Alright, perfect, Well,

1039
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you

1040
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: for having me. This has been awesome. Okay, listeners, that

1041
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff about marriage. I hope that

1042
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: we've demystified it somewhat, although it is very complex issue

1043
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: to demystify. Um. But you can look out for Joe's

1044
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: podcast Committed. It is coming out June six, And if

1045
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us and tell

1046
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: us what is that bridle underwear? Any other questions that

1047
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: were raised, you can. You can find us on Twitter

1048
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at stuff I'll

1049
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 1: never to told you. I can always email us at

1050
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at host works dot com. Hello, Hey Mom,

1051
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you a couple of questions

1052
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: about your marriage with dad. Do you think you guys

1053
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: had a happy marriage? No, we didn't. Why not? He

1054
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: was a narcissistic sociopath, incapable of loving anybody. Do you

1055
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: think that's why I'm so obsessed with trying to figure

1056
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: out how a good marriage works. Absolutely. I'm Joe Piazza.

1057
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: I'm not a therapist. I haven't even been married that long.

1058
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm just a new wife trying to figure out how

1059
00:56:55,080 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: marriage works by talking to a lot of really interesting strangers. Okay,

1060
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: so what do you want to do a podcast about marriage? Well,

1061
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: it's the oldest game in the book, right, most people

1062
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: do it. No one really talks about it. You're worried

1063
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: about something about our marriage. No, we have a good

1064
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: marriage most of the time. I think so. Most of

1065
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 1: the time, it's pretty good. I think we have an

1066
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: above average marriage, well above average, well above average. But

1067
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna learn some stuff on this podcast, hopefully. Sometimes

1068
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: my own marriage seems kind of mundane. I want to

1069
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: know what it's like to be married to a rock

1070
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: star or a porn star. I want to know what

1071
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: it's like to be married to someone who has amnesia.

1072
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: If you're worried that they're going to forget you forever.

1073
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: When you're first married, when you first start saying, you know,

1074
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: my wife would like a coffee, those words seem so weird.

1075
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: They picked me up on the stretcher. The only thing

1076
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: Patrick said to me was asked my wife. So in

1077
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: this really crazy traumatic setting, to hear him say it,

1078
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: it just really stood out to me. And then he

1079
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: looked at me and said, we'll figure this out. And

1080
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't just about one person. It was I wanted

1081
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: to go to the Olympics, Alexa wanted to go to Olympics,

1082
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: and we wanted to get each other to the Olympics.

1083
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: And I had always told him that he would be

1084
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: a great legal investigator because he had trained at least

1085
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: a dozen private investigators when he worked as a criminal lawyer.

1086
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: So that was the first thing on my mouth. I

1087
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: just looked at him and I said, let's start an

1088
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: investigations agency. And we did. Let me clarify, I cooked

1089
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: the meals, she washed the dishes, sos me making me

1090
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: look like I'm the back. I'm not the bag. He

1091
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: has definitely been Yeah, nothing but wonderful throughout this experience.

1092
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: You know, m h from how Stuff Works. I'm Joe Piazza.

1093
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: This is committed. Join me as we find out what

1094
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: happens after I do. Subscribe on Apple podcast or wherever

1095
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. See you soon.