1 00:00:04,078 --> 00:00:06,518 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My 2 00:00:06,718 --> 00:00:15,718 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey there, welcome to the Book of Joe podcasts. 3 00:00:15,998 --> 00:00:18,638 Speaker 1: I like to say it is the one podcast that 4 00:00:18,718 --> 00:00:22,518 Speaker 1: takes you inside the dugout and behind the scenes, unlike 5 00:00:22,558 --> 00:00:25,078 Speaker 1: anything else out there. Of course, based on the book 6 00:00:25,758 --> 00:00:29,278 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe by me, Tom Verducci and with 7 00:00:29,558 --> 00:00:33,358 Speaker 1: Joe Madden, three time Manager of the Year and World 8 00:00:33,398 --> 00:00:37,638 Speaker 1: Championship manager with the Chicago Cubs. Hey Joe, how you 9 00:00:37,678 --> 00:00:39,878 Speaker 1: doing good? Brother? And it is by you. You're You're 10 00:00:39,918 --> 00:00:43,278 Speaker 1: the definite superstar behind the sole thing. I hope you 11 00:00:43,278 --> 00:00:46,358 Speaker 1: had a good flight out west. Yeah. Postseason baseball, Joe, 12 00:00:46,398 --> 00:00:48,598 Speaker 1: we had, I mean more than a taste on the 13 00:00:48,598 --> 00:00:52,518 Speaker 1: wild card weekend. It was some great action. Philly's score 14 00:00:52,758 --> 00:00:55,118 Speaker 1: six runs in the ninth the biggest comeback in the 15 00:00:55,198 --> 00:00:58,198 Speaker 1: ninth inning in postseason history. The Mariners have the biggest 16 00:00:58,318 --> 00:01:01,918 Speaker 1: road comeback in postseason history to take out Toronto. We're 17 00:01:01,918 --> 00:01:05,918 Speaker 1: not done yet. The Guardians won longest scoreless game in 18 00:01:05,958 --> 00:01:09,518 Speaker 1: postseason history. It was zero zero into theft and now 19 00:01:09,598 --> 00:01:12,038 Speaker 1: we got to talk about what happened on Sunday night 20 00:01:12,118 --> 00:01:15,198 Speaker 1: in Queen's where the padres their pitching staff through the 21 00:01:15,278 --> 00:01:20,478 Speaker 1: best pitched game in a winner take all postseason game, 22 00:01:20,558 --> 00:01:22,798 Speaker 1: a one hitter of course, with Joe must Grove on 23 00:01:22,838 --> 00:01:25,278 Speaker 1: the mound. But the enduring image I think Joe is 24 00:01:25,318 --> 00:01:29,638 Speaker 1: going to be manager on the field was Buck show 25 00:01:29,638 --> 00:01:32,878 Speaker 1: Walter coming out of the dugout and ordering or asking 26 00:01:32,998 --> 00:01:37,278 Speaker 1: for a substance check on picture Joe Musgrove. That's the 27 00:01:37,278 --> 00:01:40,838 Speaker 1: first time I've seen an umpire check up pictures ears. 28 00:01:41,478 --> 00:01:43,798 Speaker 1: I gotta start with that, because, like the Book of 29 00:01:43,878 --> 00:01:47,878 Speaker 1: Joe book, which I think is very unflinching, not afraid 30 00:01:47,958 --> 00:01:50,198 Speaker 1: to go into any corners of the game, we're gonna 31 00:01:50,238 --> 00:01:53,798 Speaker 1: take on these topics in this podcast. So, Joe, you've 32 00:01:53,838 --> 00:01:57,718 Speaker 1: been there, You've been these playoffs, situations, pictures dealing. What 33 00:01:57,838 --> 00:02:00,198 Speaker 1: did you think of Buck Shawalter asking the umpires to 34 00:02:00,278 --> 00:02:03,078 Speaker 1: check Joe Mustgrove. Well, I think it's precipitated on I 35 00:02:03,078 --> 00:02:05,118 Speaker 1: didn't even know this to you, and I just texted 36 00:02:05,198 --> 00:02:07,758 Speaker 1: earlier that they have their privy to spin rates during 37 00:02:07,798 --> 00:02:10,678 Speaker 1: the game. I think that's where it began. I mean, otherwise, 38 00:02:11,038 --> 00:02:13,638 Speaker 1: just in the good old fashioned baseball days, I would 39 00:02:13,638 --> 00:02:17,038 Speaker 1: have just assumed that he was having a great night Musgrove. 40 00:02:17,238 --> 00:02:18,838 Speaker 1: And I'm a big band, and I heard Bucks say 41 00:02:18,878 --> 00:02:21,638 Speaker 1: the same thing about him. I've seen him man pitched 42 00:02:21,638 --> 00:02:24,518 Speaker 1: masterful games, You're chasing stuff in the dirt, elevated s, 43 00:02:24,518 --> 00:02:26,918 Speaker 1: fast boys, a great athlete. So I think I think 44 00:02:26,958 --> 00:02:30,158 Speaker 1: technology play something into that too, because again, I don't 45 00:02:30,198 --> 00:02:32,798 Speaker 1: know that you would question that moment unless you had 46 00:02:32,878 --> 00:02:35,398 Speaker 1: some kind of insight intel, which from what I read 47 00:02:36,118 --> 00:02:38,518 Speaker 1: is true. Um part of that, and I think you 48 00:02:38,678 --> 00:02:40,638 Speaker 1: also told me that bow Mill said it. You don't 49 00:02:40,678 --> 00:02:42,998 Speaker 1: check somebody else unless you know your own guys are clean. 50 00:02:43,398 --> 00:02:45,718 Speaker 1: I run into this, uh in a couple of years 51 00:02:45,718 --> 00:02:49,918 Speaker 1: ago in Washington, when Davy Johnson checked Joel Peralta. Oh yeah, 52 00:02:49,958 --> 00:02:52,038 Speaker 1: I remember that one. Yeah, I've had that one. And 53 00:02:52,038 --> 00:02:54,718 Speaker 1: I've been part of Brendan Donnelly with Frank Robinson at 54 00:02:54,758 --> 00:02:58,318 Speaker 1: Downaheim Stadium. So it's just it's a tough one, man, 55 00:02:58,358 --> 00:03:02,158 Speaker 1: because you're asking the check and I understand Buck's perspective 56 00:03:02,198 --> 00:03:04,198 Speaker 1: and you know you're at that point where got to 57 00:03:04,238 --> 00:03:07,958 Speaker 1: do something, and I that's that's true. But um, if 58 00:03:07,998 --> 00:03:10,558 Speaker 1: you ask your pictures what they think of that's a 59 00:03:10,558 --> 00:03:12,758 Speaker 1: lot of times they're not really cool about it. And 60 00:03:12,798 --> 00:03:14,638 Speaker 1: even what happened in Washington, I'm not going to tell 61 00:03:14,638 --> 00:03:17,398 Speaker 1: you the pictures name, but somebody from the Nationalist came 62 00:03:17,398 --> 00:03:19,198 Speaker 1: and talked to me before the game the next day 63 00:03:19,198 --> 00:03:22,158 Speaker 1: and apologize, which told me he was guilty, you know, 64 00:03:22,518 --> 00:03:26,678 Speaker 1: in advance, without even having been checked out himself. So 65 00:03:27,118 --> 00:03:29,438 Speaker 1: it's a real fine line to be drawn. I get it. 66 00:03:29,798 --> 00:03:34,238 Speaker 1: Technology permitted that discussion. Without it, it would have never occurred. Yeah, 67 00:03:34,238 --> 00:03:36,318 Speaker 1: it's a good point you make about the technology, Joe, 68 00:03:36,358 --> 00:03:39,398 Speaker 1: because these teams do have access in real time to 69 00:03:39,638 --> 00:03:43,318 Speaker 1: spin rates and and the breaks on pitches velocities, and 70 00:03:43,358 --> 00:03:47,198 Speaker 1: they saw that Joe Musgrove's spin rates were up. Now, 71 00:03:47,638 --> 00:03:49,638 Speaker 1: that is not the be all on the end all. 72 00:03:49,718 --> 00:03:52,438 Speaker 1: It's sort of like people who like to play internet sleuths, right, 73 00:03:52,478 --> 00:03:55,078 Speaker 1: they want to solve crimes based on information on the 74 00:03:55,118 --> 00:03:57,918 Speaker 1: internet that they find. The spin rate can go up 75 00:03:57,958 --> 00:04:01,518 Speaker 1: based on maybe your velocity went up. Must grow had 76 00:04:01,558 --> 00:04:03,638 Speaker 1: some mechanical changes he made late in the year. He 77 00:04:03,678 --> 00:04:06,238 Speaker 1: act he had higher spin rates on his slider in 78 00:04:06,398 --> 00:04:08,918 Speaker 1: multiple starts in the second half of the one season. 79 00:04:08,998 --> 00:04:11,678 Speaker 1: So he's getting two levels that for him, yes, for 80 00:04:12,558 --> 00:04:15,918 Speaker 1: two season, were high, but they weren't extraordinarily high based 81 00:04:15,958 --> 00:04:18,518 Speaker 1: on the way that Joe Musgrove can spin a baseball, 82 00:04:18,998 --> 00:04:22,118 Speaker 1: and that seemed to be entirely where the discussion came 83 00:04:22,118 --> 00:04:24,598 Speaker 1: from the New York Mets, because well that because they 84 00:04:24,838 --> 00:04:26,518 Speaker 1: could barely get a hit off of him, so that 85 00:04:26,558 --> 00:04:30,958 Speaker 1: he's dominating the game. My problem is that's a that's 86 00:04:30,958 --> 00:04:34,558 Speaker 1: a strong accusation to go out there. You're essentially announcing 87 00:04:34,558 --> 00:04:36,358 Speaker 1: to the people you think this guy is not doing 88 00:04:36,358 --> 00:04:40,478 Speaker 1: it legitimately, and if it's only based on numbers, I 89 00:04:40,558 --> 00:04:43,078 Speaker 1: have a problem with that. And the folks that John 90 00:04:43,158 --> 00:04:45,358 Speaker 1: Boy Media, who did a great job breaking these things 91 00:04:45,438 --> 00:04:47,678 Speaker 1: down down, went back over the game film and looked 92 00:04:47,718 --> 00:04:49,998 Speaker 1: at all the camera shots of Joe Musgrove and he 93 00:04:50,038 --> 00:04:53,038 Speaker 1: never went to his ear once upon getting a ball. 94 00:04:53,718 --> 00:04:56,758 Speaker 1: That tells me they didn't see anything firsthand like a 95 00:04:56,798 --> 00:05:00,678 Speaker 1: guy loading up in between pitches. They're going off reading 96 00:05:00,718 --> 00:05:04,118 Speaker 1: spin rates. And also their hitters couldn't hit, especially the 97 00:05:04,158 --> 00:05:06,518 Speaker 1: breaking stuff that he was throwing up out there. I 98 00:05:06,558 --> 00:05:08,798 Speaker 1: felt a little bit bad for John must grow because 99 00:05:08,958 --> 00:05:11,318 Speaker 1: he threw what he said was the game of his life, 100 00:05:11,518 --> 00:05:14,158 Speaker 1: and that's the enduring image. Yeah, I agree with the 101 00:05:14,358 --> 00:05:15,998 Speaker 1: point you just made. I was going to bring that up, 102 00:05:16,078 --> 00:05:18,318 Speaker 1: is that nobody said they saw anything, right, I mean, 103 00:05:18,358 --> 00:05:20,518 Speaker 1: it wasn't like he was going to his belt too often, 104 00:05:20,518 --> 00:05:22,358 Speaker 1: he had a shiny spot on his leg. They claimed 105 00:05:22,358 --> 00:05:25,158 Speaker 1: that there was a shiny component to his ears. Not 106 00:05:25,278 --> 00:05:27,758 Speaker 1: heard that one before except on the beach, you know. 107 00:05:27,838 --> 00:05:30,998 Speaker 1: So I don't know. I don't know if there had 108 00:05:31,038 --> 00:05:34,678 Speaker 1: been hitters complaining or somebody to dug out, somebody had 109 00:05:34,718 --> 00:05:37,998 Speaker 1: been watching and was legitimately concerned about him going to 110 00:05:37,998 --> 00:05:40,638 Speaker 1: a particular spot too often, and further where they go 111 00:05:40,638 --> 00:05:42,718 Speaker 1: out to the mount I mean, glove itself. I don't 112 00:05:42,718 --> 00:05:45,718 Speaker 1: need the glove probably probably was checked two. I would 113 00:05:45,758 --> 00:05:49,638 Speaker 1: imagine there was no indicator that was actually stuffed there 114 00:05:50,118 --> 00:05:54,638 Speaker 1: other than seeing different numbers on a on a computer possibly, 115 00:05:54,678 --> 00:05:56,998 Speaker 1: So you're right, I mean, and I thought the same 116 00:05:56,998 --> 00:05:59,558 Speaker 1: thing because I've seen this guy really good. Did those 117 00:05:59,638 --> 00:06:02,038 Speaker 1: numbers compare at all two games he's had in the past, 118 00:06:02,438 --> 00:06:04,918 Speaker 1: because when he was Pittsburgh man, he was one of 119 00:06:04,998 --> 00:06:07,998 Speaker 1: my favorite young pitchers. Yeah, that's a bob Melvin said, 120 00:06:08,038 --> 00:06:09,638 Speaker 1: just a great dude too, And he didn't like the 121 00:06:09,638 --> 00:06:12,918 Speaker 1: fact that maybe people were questioning his character, not just 122 00:06:13,038 --> 00:06:16,638 Speaker 1: his pitching. So that brings me to when I'm watching 123 00:06:16,678 --> 00:06:18,998 Speaker 1: these games this weekend, and so far this has held 124 00:06:19,038 --> 00:06:20,998 Speaker 1: true Joe that over the last five years, in the 125 00:06:21,038 --> 00:06:24,798 Speaker 1: regular season, the percentage of breaking pitches has gone up 126 00:06:24,918 --> 00:06:27,558 Speaker 1: every year, and then you get to the postseason and 127 00:06:27,598 --> 00:06:30,558 Speaker 1: they go up even further. And that's the case here 128 00:06:30,598 --> 00:06:34,518 Speaker 1: at the postseason, where the breaking ball percentage rate is 129 00:06:34,598 --> 00:06:37,518 Speaker 1: now more than one out of every three pitches is 130 00:06:37,518 --> 00:06:39,918 Speaker 1: a breaking ball. I mean, you saw Monos coming in 131 00:06:39,918 --> 00:06:43,278 Speaker 1: out of the Seattle bullpen throwing sliders, and he could 132 00:06:43,278 --> 00:06:45,958 Speaker 1: throw his fastball a hundred and two. Hell'sley with the 133 00:06:45,998 --> 00:06:48,558 Speaker 1: Cardinals got in trouble with his slider, throwing that three 134 00:06:48,598 --> 00:06:51,118 Speaker 1: too when he could throw a hundred and two. So 135 00:06:51,598 --> 00:06:53,798 Speaker 1: where do you see this going? Job is based on 136 00:06:53,878 --> 00:06:57,238 Speaker 1: analytics that breaking pitches by definition are harder to hit 137 00:06:57,758 --> 00:07:00,958 Speaker 1: than fastballs, and how does it play in a postseason environment. Well, 138 00:07:00,958 --> 00:07:02,918 Speaker 1: some of these guys command they're breaking ball better than 139 00:07:02,958 --> 00:07:05,198 Speaker 1: their fastball too. I think that's part of it. You 140 00:07:05,238 --> 00:07:08,518 Speaker 1: get to this, uh, the smaller sample size, which nobody 141 00:07:08,558 --> 00:07:11,878 Speaker 1: wants to try to determine exactly how to um put 142 00:07:11,958 --> 00:07:14,398 Speaker 1: numbers or apply it to that. I just think part 143 00:07:14,438 --> 00:07:17,638 Speaker 1: of it is Yeah, Uh, they could command that pitch 144 00:07:17,838 --> 00:07:19,798 Speaker 1: more consistently, I think. I mean, if I had a 145 00:07:19,838 --> 00:07:22,638 Speaker 1: guest that looks like that to me. And furthermore, the 146 00:07:22,678 --> 00:07:25,278 Speaker 1: speed of these breaking pitches or sliders or cutters whatever 147 00:07:25,318 --> 00:07:28,758 Speaker 1: are still like somebody's old fastball. Uh, They're still very hard. 148 00:07:28,798 --> 00:07:31,198 Speaker 1: They're still in the nineties with this kind of breaker 149 00:07:31,238 --> 00:07:33,758 Speaker 1: cut to them. But I you saw Hands the other day, 150 00:07:33,798 --> 00:07:36,918 Speaker 1: the big thing with him was lack of fastball command. Hicks, 151 00:07:36,958 --> 00:07:38,878 Speaker 1: the other young kid over there, will show you lack 152 00:07:38,918 --> 00:07:41,878 Speaker 1: of fastball command. UM, a lot of these guys, and 153 00:07:41,918 --> 00:07:44,078 Speaker 1: I've had it with pitchers in my past two I've 154 00:07:44,478 --> 00:07:47,558 Speaker 1: I told them that if you throw two consecutive fastball balls, 155 00:07:47,598 --> 00:07:48,998 Speaker 1: I want you to throw a breaker. But I don't 156 00:07:48,998 --> 00:07:50,758 Speaker 1: care what the count is. So I think it's a 157 00:07:50,798 --> 00:07:54,198 Speaker 1: combination of just purely unable to command it. And especially 158 00:07:54,238 --> 00:07:56,038 Speaker 1: when you get to like a two two or three 159 00:07:56,038 --> 00:07:58,918 Speaker 1: two counts, there's a lot of chase involved, especially the 160 00:07:58,918 --> 00:08:02,998 Speaker 1: anxiety count of three two from the hitter's perspective. And yeah, 161 00:08:03,038 --> 00:08:04,598 Speaker 1: I think you have two chance to to strike him 162 00:08:04,598 --> 00:08:06,358 Speaker 1: out there. Whether the break a ball starts as a 163 00:08:06,398 --> 00:08:08,878 Speaker 1: ball and becomes a strike or it's goes strike ball. 164 00:08:09,398 --> 00:08:11,278 Speaker 1: Both situations, you have a pretty good chance with the 165 00:08:11,358 --> 00:08:13,358 Speaker 1: hitter either taking it for a call. They're swinging at it, 166 00:08:13,398 --> 00:08:16,278 Speaker 1: so I think it really jumps. It gives you twice 167 00:08:16,278 --> 00:08:18,478 Speaker 1: as many opportunities to get somebody to punch out in 168 00:08:18,478 --> 00:08:22,158 Speaker 1: that situation. I think it's a combination of the fact 169 00:08:22,158 --> 00:08:24,038 Speaker 1: that the velocity is still pretty good in the fact 170 00:08:24,038 --> 00:08:26,278 Speaker 1: that they could commend it better than their fastball. Yeah, 171 00:08:26,278 --> 00:08:28,038 Speaker 1: it's funny how these games tend to turn out to 172 00:08:28,078 --> 00:08:31,758 Speaker 1: be manager games because they do tend to be tightly played. Um, 173 00:08:31,798 --> 00:08:34,478 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking especially about what happened to the Cardinals 174 00:08:34,558 --> 00:08:36,878 Speaker 1: and the Blue Jays. They had rookie managers who took 175 00:08:36,918 --> 00:08:38,678 Speaker 1: their starting pitcher out of the game in my book, 176 00:08:38,718 --> 00:08:41,878 Speaker 1: too early, guys who were rolling, they wanted to start 177 00:08:41,878 --> 00:08:44,438 Speaker 1: that bullpen carousel a little bit earlier, and that begins 178 00:08:44,438 --> 00:08:46,558 Speaker 1: to put pressure on the back end guy at the 179 00:08:46,598 --> 00:08:48,038 Speaker 1: back end of the line, who now has to pick 180 00:08:48,118 --> 00:08:51,358 Speaker 1: up more outs that he did during the season. Um. 181 00:08:51,398 --> 00:08:54,158 Speaker 1: You know, I always say, Joe that it's very rare, 182 00:08:54,198 --> 00:08:56,958 Speaker 1: if ever, in today's postseason environment, that a manager will 183 00:08:56,958 --> 00:08:59,318 Speaker 1: lose a game by leaving a starting pitcher in the 184 00:08:59,358 --> 00:09:02,838 Speaker 1: game too long. But I can see it almost night 185 00:09:02,878 --> 00:09:05,118 Speaker 1: after night where they was games by taking him out 186 00:09:05,158 --> 00:09:07,438 Speaker 1: too early. So you've got to tell me, what's it 187 00:09:07,518 --> 00:09:09,758 Speaker 1: like being in that dugout when you got a starting 188 00:09:09,758 --> 00:09:12,958 Speaker 1: pitcher out there, When to take him out even when 189 00:09:12,958 --> 00:09:14,798 Speaker 1: it looks like he's rolling well, part of that is 190 00:09:14,878 --> 00:09:17,638 Speaker 1: that's all the pregame discussion, quite frankly, and that is 191 00:09:17,758 --> 00:09:20,158 Speaker 1: I mean they'll talk before the game and though they 192 00:09:20,278 --> 00:09:23,478 Speaker 1: being analytical people for warning you about the third time through, 193 00:09:23,518 --> 00:09:25,398 Speaker 1: and they'll try to guess how many batters this guy 194 00:09:25,438 --> 00:09:27,318 Speaker 1: can how many outs can you get on that particular 195 00:09:27,398 --> 00:09:30,198 Speaker 1: night in advance, So I mean, you're managing that game, 196 00:09:30,318 --> 00:09:32,878 Speaker 1: and you have all your people above you. Your boss 197 00:09:32,998 --> 00:09:35,798 Speaker 1: is basically telling you to be careful when he gets 198 00:09:35,838 --> 00:09:38,678 Speaker 1: to this particular juncture. The safer thing to do is 199 00:09:38,678 --> 00:09:40,478 Speaker 1: to take the guy out and bring the bullpen guy. 200 00:09:40,478 --> 00:09:43,158 Speaker 1: And if it doesn't work, at least you complied with 201 00:09:43,238 --> 00:09:45,398 Speaker 1: the attitude of the entire group at that point. That's 202 00:09:45,398 --> 00:09:47,998 Speaker 1: just that's just honesty right there, man um. And I 203 00:09:48,438 --> 00:09:51,518 Speaker 1: was accused of taking Kyle Hendricks out too soon in 204 00:09:51,558 --> 00:09:54,918 Speaker 1: twenty six and although that was not analytically driven, that 205 00:09:54,998 --> 00:09:57,598 Speaker 1: was just my take on who was hitting and who 206 00:09:57,678 --> 00:09:59,798 Speaker 1: was on deck and the fact that Lester had been 207 00:09:59,798 --> 00:10:03,278 Speaker 1: warming up. So my my thought process was different. But 208 00:10:03,318 --> 00:10:05,958 Speaker 1: I promise you a lot of the young managers today 209 00:10:06,198 --> 00:10:09,278 Speaker 1: that stuff was prescripted. They were they were told about 210 00:10:09,318 --> 00:10:11,478 Speaker 1: it in advance to be careful with this, and I 211 00:10:11,478 --> 00:10:15,718 Speaker 1: think they reacted accordingly. Yeah, there's some really really interesting 212 00:10:15,878 --> 00:10:18,518 Speaker 1: deep dive stuff in the book about that about when 213 00:10:18,558 --> 00:10:20,998 Speaker 1: you're watching these postseason games and you want a second 214 00:10:20,998 --> 00:10:22,998 Speaker 1: guest the manager, you've got to widen the scope a 215 00:10:23,038 --> 00:10:25,758 Speaker 1: little bit based on the conversation and scripts that are 216 00:10:25,798 --> 00:10:29,278 Speaker 1: put in place before the game with the management team. 217 00:10:29,318 --> 00:10:32,598 Speaker 1: It's really worth exploring the book. Um really, I think 218 00:10:32,598 --> 00:10:34,758 Speaker 1: it's the first time people have really gotten really deep 219 00:10:34,838 --> 00:10:37,558 Speaker 1: into the weeds on that kind of issue. Hey, we've 220 00:10:37,558 --> 00:10:40,158 Speaker 1: got a lot more coming up here, and I know 221 00:10:40,318 --> 00:10:42,638 Speaker 1: you want to stick around for this. There is one 222 00:10:42,678 --> 00:10:46,838 Speaker 1: particular bet that Joe Madden saw over the weekend that 223 00:10:46,958 --> 00:10:59,478 Speaker 1: he can't wait to talk about. Stick around. Welcome back 224 00:10:59,518 --> 00:11:03,078 Speaker 1: to the Book of Joe podcast with me Tom Berducci. 225 00:11:03,118 --> 00:11:06,598 Speaker 1: Of course, I'm with Sports Illustrated senior writer and analyst 226 00:11:06,798 --> 00:11:10,318 Speaker 1: for MLB Network and Fox and Joe Madden. He's the 227 00:11:10,398 --> 00:11:13,718 Speaker 1: Joe in the book. Of Joe, three time manager of 228 00:11:13,718 --> 00:11:18,918 Speaker 1: the Year and World Championship manager with the Chicago Cubs. 229 00:11:19,558 --> 00:11:22,798 Speaker 1: So before the break, Joe, we talked about one particular 230 00:11:22,998 --> 00:11:27,318 Speaker 1: at bat that really caught your eye, and maybe it 231 00:11:27,518 --> 00:11:30,718 Speaker 1: wasn't a home run, but something you saw that you 232 00:11:30,798 --> 00:11:33,758 Speaker 1: really liked. Cigara's at bat. Nobody really talked about that 233 00:11:33,878 --> 00:11:35,838 Speaker 1: enough when he just punched the ball through right field. 234 00:11:35,918 --> 00:11:38,438 Speaker 1: It just seems that that kind of a bat becomes 235 00:11:38,438 --> 00:11:41,198 Speaker 1: more popular at this time of the year. Everybody's trying 236 00:11:41,238 --> 00:11:42,958 Speaker 1: to do that, but if you haven't nurtured it over 237 00:11:42,998 --> 00:11:45,838 Speaker 1: the course of the season, it becomes more difficult. Sugara 238 00:11:45,878 --> 00:11:47,718 Speaker 1: is a good hitter. He'll hit the ball everywhere all 239 00:11:47,758 --> 00:11:49,558 Speaker 1: the time. He's a very difficult guy to pitch to 240 00:11:49,678 --> 00:11:52,878 Speaker 1: and defend. But that's that's the that's the seven A moment, 241 00:11:52,918 --> 00:11:55,518 Speaker 1: that's the game changer right there, that little butt out 242 00:11:55,558 --> 00:11:58,198 Speaker 1: poke to right field, and that makes all the difference 243 00:11:58,678 --> 00:12:01,558 Speaker 1: in the world. McNeil with the Mets, but that's just 244 00:12:01,638 --> 00:12:04,158 Speaker 1: his m O, with the choked up matt that that 245 00:12:04,318 --> 00:12:06,678 Speaker 1: he does. These guys you hit, let's say, for instance, 246 00:12:06,678 --> 00:12:08,278 Speaker 1: you hit twenty home runs, and let's say you're really 247 00:12:08,278 --> 00:12:11,438 Speaker 1: good hit what do you do with your other plate 248 00:12:11,478 --> 00:12:14,318 Speaker 1: appearances that's never spoken about. And that's the part to 249 00:12:14,398 --> 00:12:16,998 Speaker 1: me that you need to be able to nurture and understand. 250 00:12:17,318 --> 00:12:19,678 Speaker 1: I call it the be hacked to strike approach b hack, 251 00:12:19,718 --> 00:12:22,198 Speaker 1: where you choke up, look the other way first, look 252 00:12:22,238 --> 00:12:25,638 Speaker 1: away first, and keep your fastball hack loaded. It's it's 253 00:12:25,638 --> 00:12:29,478 Speaker 1: easier to to to adjust down from a mental velocity 254 00:12:29,518 --> 00:12:31,718 Speaker 1: pitch to a break the ball, as opposed to think 255 00:12:31,718 --> 00:12:34,518 Speaker 1: of something soft and have him the picture throws something hard. 256 00:12:34,558 --> 00:12:36,958 Speaker 1: There's there's methods in place. Part of the problem just 257 00:12:37,318 --> 00:12:40,038 Speaker 1: lack of compensation for it. Nobody really wants these kind 258 00:12:40,078 --> 00:12:42,558 Speaker 1: of guys. The guys are just David Fletcher. I was 259 00:12:42,598 --> 00:12:44,998 Speaker 1: a pleasure of having David Fletcher with the Angels. My goodness, 260 00:12:44,998 --> 00:12:47,598 Speaker 1: he's one of my favorite all time players in the 261 00:12:47,718 --> 00:12:51,078 Speaker 1: Nico Horner get the Cubs cut from that same cloth, 262 00:12:51,758 --> 00:12:53,598 Speaker 1: I promise you, and he gets the playoffs, and I 263 00:12:53,598 --> 00:12:56,118 Speaker 1: hope they both get there. These guys are really gonna 264 00:12:56,118 --> 00:12:58,438 Speaker 1: shine because they're gonna do a little things in those 265 00:12:58,518 --> 00:13:02,158 Speaker 1: moments based on their ability to move a baseball when 266 00:13:02,198 --> 00:13:05,158 Speaker 1: it's necessary. And now STA's really what it comes down to. 267 00:13:05,158 --> 00:13:07,038 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be nurtured more, needs to 268 00:13:07,038 --> 00:13:09,158 Speaker 1: be taught more, and if you really want to get 269 00:13:09,158 --> 00:13:11,398 Speaker 1: it done, it probably has to be compensated for it more. 270 00:13:12,278 --> 00:13:14,798 Speaker 1: But that to me is the essence of this time 271 00:13:14,838 --> 00:13:19,438 Speaker 1: of the year playing baseball, where uh putting the personal 272 00:13:19,518 --> 00:13:22,518 Speaker 1: number SCO in your back pocket and really it gets 273 00:13:22,558 --> 00:13:24,518 Speaker 1: to be all about teaming. So you should see more 274 00:13:24,518 --> 00:13:26,518 Speaker 1: of that as you move forward. Yeah, I'm glad you 275 00:13:26,558 --> 00:13:29,318 Speaker 1: brought that up, Joe. That basic by James Siagura the Phillies. 276 00:13:29,958 --> 00:13:32,838 Speaker 1: You could see the commitment that he had in that 277 00:13:32,918 --> 00:13:35,398 Speaker 1: moment to put the ball in play because as you know, 278 00:13:35,878 --> 00:13:38,878 Speaker 1: the pitch was way outside. It looked like a breaking 279 00:13:38,878 --> 00:13:41,318 Speaker 1: ball slider way off the plate, and just the commitment 280 00:13:41,358 --> 00:13:43,638 Speaker 1: that he had to move the ball, put it in 281 00:13:43,718 --> 00:13:46,998 Speaker 1: play and gets it through the infield. Huge moment in 282 00:13:47,038 --> 00:13:49,758 Speaker 1: that game. In fact, that whole Philadelphia rally was built 283 00:13:49,798 --> 00:13:51,798 Speaker 1: not on the home run ball, but putting the ball 284 00:13:51,838 --> 00:13:54,398 Speaker 1: in play and not chasing a ton of walks. And 285 00:13:54,478 --> 00:13:56,718 Speaker 1: let's say the Cardinals helped them out. The defense was 286 00:13:56,758 --> 00:13:59,838 Speaker 1: a little bit shaky. But here's what that inning got 287 00:13:59,878 --> 00:14:01,878 Speaker 1: me thinking, Joe. It goes back to the book, the 288 00:14:01,878 --> 00:14:04,078 Speaker 1: Book of Joe and where you mentioned the five five 289 00:14:04,198 --> 00:14:08,158 Speaker 1: levels of being a professional, and that fifth level is 290 00:14:08,198 --> 00:14:11,078 Speaker 1: when that player wants one thing. All I want to 291 00:14:11,158 --> 00:14:14,038 Speaker 1: do is win. And I'm telling you I hadn't thought 292 00:14:14,078 --> 00:14:15,918 Speaker 1: about it until you brought this up in the book. 293 00:14:15,958 --> 00:14:17,678 Speaker 1: But I've always thought of players when they get to 294 00:14:17,718 --> 00:14:20,998 Speaker 1: that point around thirty one. They're at their physical peak, 295 00:14:21,358 --> 00:14:24,838 Speaker 1: typically in baseball, but maybe that's also the point where 296 00:14:24,878 --> 00:14:27,598 Speaker 1: they're at their mental peak, where they've made the money, 297 00:14:27,598 --> 00:14:30,718 Speaker 1: they feel like they belong and now they truly only 298 00:14:30,758 --> 00:14:33,558 Speaker 1: want to win. And I look at that Philadelphia team, 299 00:14:33,598 --> 00:14:36,278 Speaker 1: which listen, they've got their issues right. It's not a 300 00:14:36,318 --> 00:14:38,758 Speaker 1: great bullpen, it's not a great defensive team. But I 301 00:14:38,798 --> 00:14:41,318 Speaker 1: look around. I see Sigura, and I see Harper, and 302 00:14:41,318 --> 00:14:43,638 Speaker 1: I see Kestan Honos, and I see Hoskins, and I 303 00:14:43,678 --> 00:14:46,318 Speaker 1: see real Muto. I see a lot of guys out 304 00:14:46,358 --> 00:14:49,838 Speaker 1: there that, in your words, show our level five professionals. 305 00:14:49,878 --> 00:14:52,838 Speaker 1: How about that? Yeah, I mean quickly, Level one is 306 00:14:52,838 --> 00:14:54,798 Speaker 1: happy to be here, just happy to be part of 307 00:14:54,798 --> 00:14:57,558 Speaker 1: the big leagues. Level to survival. I really like this. 308 00:14:57,638 --> 00:15:00,798 Speaker 1: I want to stay here. Level three would be I 309 00:15:00,798 --> 00:15:02,398 Speaker 1: I belong to I can do this, and we all 310 00:15:02,398 --> 00:15:04,878 Speaker 1: have to rive at that point. Level four to me 311 00:15:04,958 --> 00:15:06,798 Speaker 1: is I gotta make some dope. I got a short 312 00:15:06,798 --> 00:15:08,358 Speaker 1: time framer. I want to make as much money as 313 00:15:08,398 --> 00:15:12,038 Speaker 1: I possibly can. And then the level five player shows 314 00:15:12,118 --> 00:15:14,198 Speaker 1: up or exists. All I want to do is win. 315 00:15:14,478 --> 00:15:17,318 Speaker 1: And once you've gone through these first four stages. It 316 00:15:17,358 --> 00:15:19,198 Speaker 1: applies in baseball. I think it applies in a lot 317 00:15:19,238 --> 00:15:22,158 Speaker 1: of other industries too, When all you want to do 318 00:15:22,238 --> 00:15:24,118 Speaker 1: is win, what's what's best for the group, the all 319 00:15:24,158 --> 00:15:27,278 Speaker 1: truistic kind of methods and thought process, that's what you're 320 00:15:27,318 --> 00:15:30,398 Speaker 1: seeing right now. Nobody's out there thinking about themselves. Nobody 321 00:15:30,398 --> 00:15:33,198 Speaker 1: comes to the ballpark right about getting two or three hits. 322 00:15:33,358 --> 00:15:36,598 Speaker 1: They will move a runner if it's necessary. You will 323 00:15:36,638 --> 00:15:39,078 Speaker 1: poke the ball the right field if it's necessary. You 324 00:15:39,118 --> 00:15:41,598 Speaker 1: will get in front of any particular ball that's hit 325 00:15:41,638 --> 00:15:45,078 Speaker 1: hard if it's necessary. Your mindset changes, and and again 326 00:15:45,118 --> 00:15:48,078 Speaker 1: I guess that's probably true of any sport. But I'd 327 00:15:48,118 --> 00:15:50,158 Speaker 1: like the idea of the game being played like that 328 00:15:50,278 --> 00:15:52,438 Speaker 1: all the time. And that's one of the things that 329 00:15:52,518 --> 00:15:55,118 Speaker 1: when I go to spring trainings, I've often and I 330 00:15:55,158 --> 00:15:57,518 Speaker 1: always do, talk about the five levels in the beginning 331 00:15:57,558 --> 00:16:01,078 Speaker 1: of camp. But the Phillies. Well, every one of these groups, 332 00:16:01,078 --> 00:16:03,038 Speaker 1: they've got a bunch of guys right now that all 333 00:16:03,078 --> 00:16:05,158 Speaker 1: they want to do is win. And when you get 334 00:16:05,198 --> 00:16:08,158 Speaker 1: to that mental a level, mentally you're a game starts 335 00:16:08,158 --> 00:16:10,558 Speaker 1: adjusting for the better. Well, as long as you've been 336 00:16:10,598 --> 00:16:12,678 Speaker 1: in the game, Joe, you're bound to run into guys 337 00:16:12,758 --> 00:16:15,558 Speaker 1: who run across the entire spectrum of those five levels. 338 00:16:15,758 --> 00:16:18,598 Speaker 1: And while you were talking, I specifically thought about two 339 00:16:18,638 --> 00:16:22,278 Speaker 1: teams of yours that are on both ends. I think 340 00:16:22,278 --> 00:16:24,198 Speaker 1: about when you first got to the Devil Rays, and 341 00:16:24,278 --> 00:16:25,838 Speaker 1: let's face it, you had a lot of guys there 342 00:16:25,838 --> 00:16:27,558 Speaker 1: who are just trying to get a foothold in the 343 00:16:27,598 --> 00:16:30,998 Speaker 1: big leagues, and you needed to change the entire culture there. 344 00:16:31,158 --> 00:16:34,318 Speaker 1: You weren't exactly chock full of level five guys with 345 00:16:34,358 --> 00:16:38,198 Speaker 1: those oh six Rays. And then go forward a decade 346 00:16:38,198 --> 00:16:41,118 Speaker 1: more to twenty six team, where that Cubs team really 347 00:16:41,238 --> 00:16:43,478 Speaker 1: was a younger team. I think it's the youngest team 348 00:16:43,478 --> 00:16:45,638 Speaker 1: to win a Game seven of the World Series. And 349 00:16:45,718 --> 00:16:48,398 Speaker 1: yet it seemed to me from the outside that you 350 00:16:48,478 --> 00:16:51,918 Speaker 1: did have a lot of level five guys even though 351 00:16:51,918 --> 00:16:54,438 Speaker 1: they were young. So how about those two groups, sprinkle, 352 00:16:54,678 --> 00:16:57,078 Speaker 1: You got a sprinkle with the right guys within the clubhouse, 353 00:16:57,118 --> 00:17:01,198 Speaker 1: the Rays for example, but Cliff Floyd, Troy Perceval was 354 00:17:01,238 --> 00:17:03,798 Speaker 1: within that group and Eric Kinsky had a great influence 355 00:17:03,918 --> 00:17:06,158 Speaker 1: there too. Yeah. Well you're talking about after you flipped 356 00:17:06,198 --> 00:17:08,038 Speaker 1: it a little bit, right, because you had to turn 357 00:17:08,118 --> 00:17:10,918 Speaker 1: over that that roster. Yeah, I mean the two thousand 358 00:17:10,958 --> 00:17:12,918 Speaker 1: and six and seven it was full of devil Rays. 359 00:17:13,198 --> 00:17:14,918 Speaker 1: We had to get rid of the devil Rays and 360 00:17:14,918 --> 00:17:17,278 Speaker 1: and the and the culture and the way it was 361 00:17:17,918 --> 00:17:21,358 Speaker 1: just had been formed. But yeah, it was the these 362 00:17:21,438 --> 00:17:23,958 Speaker 1: these players that came in the level five guys coming 363 00:17:23,958 --> 00:17:27,278 Speaker 1: and mixing with the younger guys really helped influence that 364 00:17:27,358 --> 00:17:29,958 Speaker 1: situation a lot. You need if you have a group 365 00:17:29,958 --> 00:17:32,678 Speaker 1: of young talented players, which I really dig on, I mean, 366 00:17:32,718 --> 00:17:34,958 Speaker 1: you got to sprinkle it with the right season and 367 00:17:35,038 --> 00:17:37,638 Speaker 1: you just have to one of my favorite Cliff Floyd, 368 00:17:37,718 --> 00:17:40,598 Speaker 1: he was outstanding and I said ski and of course 369 00:17:40,638 --> 00:17:43,118 Speaker 1: person then you move forward. You got Johnny Lester with 370 00:17:43,198 --> 00:17:47,318 Speaker 1: that particular group, Jason Heyward, h David ross Um, that 371 00:17:47,358 --> 00:17:50,238 Speaker 1: whole group, Johnny Lackey, there was there's you want to 372 00:17:50,278 --> 00:17:54,078 Speaker 1: be able to balance your young up and comers with 373 00:17:54,638 --> 00:17:56,358 Speaker 1: tried and truths that had been there, and I think 374 00:17:56,438 --> 00:17:59,238 Speaker 1: that's what both of those teams benefited from and zero 375 00:17:59,238 --> 00:18:00,838 Speaker 1: Wade and sixteen is the fact that we had a 376 00:18:00,918 --> 00:18:03,838 Speaker 1: lot of great young talent and then they're nurtured in there. 377 00:18:03,958 --> 00:18:06,718 Speaker 1: There's b s. I remember the one time David Ross, 378 00:18:06,758 --> 00:18:09,118 Speaker 1: who was not easy on some of these guys, met 379 00:18:09,158 --> 00:18:11,478 Speaker 1: Addison Wrestle at the top step of the dugout after 380 00:18:11,558 --> 00:18:14,678 Speaker 1: a really not so smart play. Um. So there's an 381 00:18:14,718 --> 00:18:17,838 Speaker 1: accountability there from the younger players to the guys that 382 00:18:17,878 --> 00:18:19,758 Speaker 1: are there just to win, and they learn in a 383 00:18:19,838 --> 00:18:22,718 Speaker 1: hurry that that's what it's all about. You have to 384 00:18:22,838 --> 00:18:24,798 Speaker 1: you're coming here to play to win, and we got 385 00:18:24,918 --> 00:18:26,638 Speaker 1: to think. We've got to think in advance, and mental 386 00:18:26,678 --> 00:18:28,918 Speaker 1: mistakes have no place in this game. So how does 387 00:18:28,998 --> 00:18:31,798 Speaker 1: all that apply to postseason baseball? Joe? We hear that 388 00:18:31,838 --> 00:18:34,238 Speaker 1: phrase a lot. You know, treat it like it's another game, 389 00:18:34,878 --> 00:18:38,558 Speaker 1: But obviously the stakes are higher, right, the parks are full, 390 00:18:38,678 --> 00:18:42,478 Speaker 1: the pressure is ratcheted up. As a manager, how did 391 00:18:42,518 --> 00:18:45,398 Speaker 1: you prepare your teams to handle that? From day one 392 00:18:45,438 --> 00:18:47,718 Speaker 1: of camp. My line is, and I did want them 393 00:18:47,758 --> 00:18:49,558 Speaker 1: to treat it like any other day. I wanted us 394 00:18:49,598 --> 00:18:51,918 Speaker 1: to play the same game of baseball, regardless it was 395 00:18:52,038 --> 00:18:56,918 Speaker 1: March fifteen, July October fift What does that mean. I 396 00:18:56,958 --> 00:19:00,558 Speaker 1: don't believe in turning up switches or dials or I 397 00:19:00,638 --> 00:19:03,398 Speaker 1: wanted us to play the same style of baseball regardless 398 00:19:03,558 --> 00:19:05,038 Speaker 1: of the eight on the calendar. In other words, I 399 00:19:05,038 --> 00:19:07,878 Speaker 1: want that Segura hit in the middle of July. I 400 00:19:07,918 --> 00:19:10,078 Speaker 1: want that. I want to taking the extra base on 401 00:19:10,118 --> 00:19:12,918 Speaker 1: August one. I don't want it just to occur when 402 00:19:12,918 --> 00:19:15,318 Speaker 1: we get to the playoffs. My point was that if 403 00:19:15,358 --> 00:19:19,478 Speaker 1: we nurture ourselves mentally to play that same playoff caliber 404 00:19:19,558 --> 00:19:22,358 Speaker 1: kind of game daily, when it gets to that point 405 00:19:22,438 --> 00:19:24,918 Speaker 1: when it is actually a playoff game, there's nothing to change. 406 00:19:25,358 --> 00:19:27,718 Speaker 1: You've already had that mindset, You've already had this method 407 00:19:27,718 --> 00:19:29,838 Speaker 1: of going about your business on a daily basis that 408 00:19:30,278 --> 00:19:33,798 Speaker 1: when you get there, you in your mind you've already 409 00:19:33,838 --> 00:19:35,878 Speaker 1: done this. And I would really pound on that. I 410 00:19:35,918 --> 00:19:38,038 Speaker 1: would make sure that they heard that from me more 411 00:19:38,078 --> 00:19:40,278 Speaker 1: than once. They heard in the spring training and my 412 00:19:40,318 --> 00:19:41,798 Speaker 1: second meeting at the middle of the year, and of 413 00:19:41,838 --> 00:19:44,518 Speaker 1: course right before the playoffs began. They heard this from 414 00:19:44,518 --> 00:19:46,638 Speaker 1: me all the time. And I thought, if we could 415 00:19:46,638 --> 00:19:48,798 Speaker 1: treat every day the same and not add any more 416 00:19:48,838 --> 00:19:51,518 Speaker 1: weight to it. Then you can walk out there and 417 00:19:51,598 --> 00:19:54,438 Speaker 1: not be taken by the crowd or the magnitude of 418 00:19:54,478 --> 00:19:57,878 Speaker 1: the game from a different perspective, immediate perspective. And that's 419 00:19:57,918 --> 00:20:00,198 Speaker 1: what I did, And I really try to hammer home 420 00:20:00,358 --> 00:20:02,758 Speaker 1: the sameness of every game. But then you've got to 421 00:20:02,758 --> 00:20:05,958 Speaker 1: get them to play like that and life very cool. Hey, 422 00:20:06,038 --> 00:20:08,758 Speaker 1: we've got the top four seeds. They're in action this week, 423 00:20:08,998 --> 00:20:12,358 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about those higher seeds in 424 00:20:12,438 --> 00:20:15,398 Speaker 1: this round. And I also want to talk about Joe. 425 00:20:15,398 --> 00:20:19,638 Speaker 1: You're gonna love this. One of the most underrated cars 426 00:20:19,638 --> 00:20:21,678 Speaker 1: in the course of history. Yeah, we talked cars here 427 00:20:21,718 --> 00:20:33,198 Speaker 1: to be back in a flash on the Book of Joe. Hey, 428 00:20:33,238 --> 00:20:35,998 Speaker 1: welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts. I'm Tom 429 00:20:36,038 --> 00:20:39,598 Speaker 1: Berducci with Joe Madden and Joe. This week we're seeing 430 00:20:39,918 --> 00:20:42,438 Speaker 1: the top teams in action. I thought it was a 431 00:20:42,518 --> 00:20:46,518 Speaker 1: huge advantage coming into the l d S round for 432 00:20:46,558 --> 00:20:49,838 Speaker 1: those one and two seeds to have the rest, while 433 00:20:49,958 --> 00:20:51,918 Speaker 1: essentially those teams that had to play in the wild 434 00:20:51,918 --> 00:20:54,358 Speaker 1: card round had to burn up a lot of their pitching. 435 00:20:55,198 --> 00:20:57,038 Speaker 1: Tell me how you see it as a manager, You 436 00:20:57,118 --> 00:21:00,798 Speaker 1: get the days off, which I guess can be problematic, 437 00:21:01,318 --> 00:21:03,518 Speaker 1: and but you also get the line up your pitching. 438 00:21:03,598 --> 00:21:07,038 Speaker 1: So rest versus rust, where are you at on that? 439 00:21:07,238 --> 00:21:10,078 Speaker 1: I'll take the rest. I like it. Just like you said, 440 00:21:10,118 --> 00:21:12,598 Speaker 1: you get a chance to set up your pitching anything. 441 00:21:12,598 --> 00:21:14,438 Speaker 1: I think the mess would have loved I had a 442 00:21:14,478 --> 00:21:17,118 Speaker 1: couple more days to not play the Padres and then 443 00:21:17,158 --> 00:21:20,398 Speaker 1: set up their pitching and give their guys an opportunity 444 00:21:20,438 --> 00:21:23,958 Speaker 1: to be really be feeling a lot better about themselves. Uh, 445 00:21:24,318 --> 00:21:26,678 Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't tell you that playing some 446 00:21:26,758 --> 00:21:29,998 Speaker 1: really hard thought games and winning is going to set 447 00:21:30,038 --> 00:21:32,678 Speaker 1: you up in this next ron. I E talked about 448 00:21:32,718 --> 00:21:34,998 Speaker 1: this with you, and we played the Nationals with the 449 00:21:34,998 --> 00:21:39,758 Speaker 1: Cubs and eat in seventeen and we win in Washington, really, 450 00:21:40,278 --> 00:21:42,838 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the more difficult games I've ever 451 00:21:42,958 --> 00:21:44,918 Speaker 1: participated it. And then have to get on a plane 452 00:21:44,918 --> 00:21:47,838 Speaker 1: and go play the Dodgers who had just flown back 453 00:21:47,838 --> 00:21:51,158 Speaker 1: and forth from Arizona and swept the Diamond back. So 454 00:21:51,238 --> 00:21:53,798 Speaker 1: there's to be rested and lined things up. To me 455 00:21:53,838 --> 00:21:56,838 Speaker 1: as an absolute advantage, I totally believe that out and 456 00:21:56,878 --> 00:21:58,958 Speaker 1: there's any rust involved, I mean, these guys will go 457 00:21:58,998 --> 00:22:01,518 Speaker 1: out there ready to play they're gonna be eager to 458 00:22:01,598 --> 00:22:04,638 Speaker 1: play any little bumps or bruises. They had a chance 459 00:22:04,678 --> 00:22:06,598 Speaker 1: to heal it up a little bit. If they're working 460 00:22:06,638 --> 00:22:08,918 Speaker 1: on something specifically, they get more ops to do that. 461 00:22:08,958 --> 00:22:11,518 Speaker 1: And even from a team perspective, you have a chance 462 00:22:11,558 --> 00:22:14,998 Speaker 1: to if a team has something that you need to stop, 463 00:22:15,798 --> 00:22:20,438 Speaker 1: you have to do better job primarily I would say defensively, um, 464 00:22:20,518 --> 00:22:21,958 Speaker 1: and you would have a chance to work on that 465 00:22:22,078 --> 00:22:23,558 Speaker 1: or talk about a little bit more. I think there's 466 00:22:23,558 --> 00:22:26,318 Speaker 1: an advantage there too. Um, the rest of the stuff 467 00:22:26,518 --> 00:22:29,198 Speaker 1: versus their pictures, versus their hitters, that's the stuff you 468 00:22:29,238 --> 00:22:32,398 Speaker 1: do all the time. And Dodgers padres how many times 469 00:22:32,438 --> 00:22:35,118 Speaker 1: did they play this year? Braves Philly? So there's no 470 00:22:35,318 --> 00:22:37,478 Speaker 1: not a whole lot more of information to be had 471 00:22:37,598 --> 00:22:40,558 Speaker 1: right there. Um, So that's primarily comes down to talk 472 00:22:40,718 --> 00:22:43,878 Speaker 1: for the rest. Yeah, we have a lot of intradivisional matchups, 473 00:22:43,918 --> 00:22:46,558 Speaker 1: not a lot of secrets, and three of those matchups, 474 00:22:47,078 --> 00:22:49,318 Speaker 1: you know, two wrinkles fans should be aware of in 475 00:22:49,438 --> 00:22:52,518 Speaker 1: this postseason. Basically it was caused by the lockout. Had 476 00:22:52,518 --> 00:22:54,838 Speaker 1: to kind of jerrymander the schedule a little bit to 477 00:22:54,838 --> 00:22:57,318 Speaker 1: get the postseason calendar in but in the A L 478 00:22:57,398 --> 00:23:01,198 Speaker 1: d S, the schedule goes game one off day, Game two, 479 00:23:01,638 --> 00:23:04,998 Speaker 1: off day, and then game three, So you know Aaron 480 00:23:05,038 --> 00:23:08,198 Speaker 1: Boone could bring back probably will Garrett coll on game four, 481 00:23:08,518 --> 00:23:10,438 Speaker 1: so you have your a starting too the four first 482 00:23:10,518 --> 00:23:14,198 Speaker 1: four Houston's Dusty Baker. I don't think he does that 483 00:23:14,278 --> 00:23:17,878 Speaker 1: with Justin Verlander because Justin has pitched mostly with five 484 00:23:17,958 --> 00:23:19,798 Speaker 1: days of rest this year and they have such a 485 00:23:19,838 --> 00:23:23,918 Speaker 1: deep rotation. And then the other wrinkle is five games 486 00:23:23,918 --> 00:23:26,958 Speaker 1: in a row in the LCS, potentially games three and 487 00:23:26,998 --> 00:23:29,198 Speaker 1: if it goes the distance to seven all in a 488 00:23:29,318 --> 00:23:33,558 Speaker 1: row without an off day, So I call that bullpen pelooza, Joe. 489 00:23:33,678 --> 00:23:34,798 Speaker 1: I mean, you know what it's like when you play 490 00:23:34,838 --> 00:23:37,238 Speaker 1: a seven game series and you have three consecutive days. 491 00:23:37,278 --> 00:23:40,158 Speaker 1: You almost have to start managing with that mind in 492 00:23:40,158 --> 00:23:43,158 Speaker 1: that first of the three straight, So imagine five straight 493 00:23:43,198 --> 00:23:45,958 Speaker 1: in the postseason. That almost seems unfair. I didn't no 494 00:23:46,078 --> 00:23:48,878 Speaker 1: realize that because you could set up your whole team 495 00:23:48,878 --> 00:23:51,238 Speaker 1: and roster differently based on those days off. In a 496 00:23:51,278 --> 00:23:54,598 Speaker 1: five game series, you could possibly plug in there one 497 00:23:54,638 --> 00:23:58,358 Speaker 1: more pinch hitter or possibly uh one more defender, just 498 00:23:58,518 --> 00:24:01,278 Speaker 1: one more of something and not have to worry about 499 00:24:01,318 --> 00:24:04,758 Speaker 1: another starting pitcher possibly, So there's there's a difference really 500 00:24:04,758 --> 00:24:07,438 Speaker 1: when it comes down to roster construction with those days off, 501 00:24:07,798 --> 00:24:11,998 Speaker 1: and then furthermore, like you suggested rested bullpens. Um, it's 502 00:24:11,998 --> 00:24:14,078 Speaker 1: really a true challenge when you have to play daily 503 00:24:14,518 --> 00:24:16,638 Speaker 1: without any days off, like the nationally is gonna have 504 00:24:16,678 --> 00:24:19,318 Speaker 1: to do. That's that's a lot more difficult. Um. So 505 00:24:19,358 --> 00:24:21,998 Speaker 1: I'm curious. I want to I think it'd be interesting 506 00:24:21,998 --> 00:24:24,838 Speaker 1: to see how things are lined up. But just realize, 507 00:24:25,038 --> 00:24:28,318 Speaker 1: in these American League games, there's gonna be a chance 508 00:24:28,358 --> 00:24:31,998 Speaker 1: to use your guys to three games in a row 509 00:24:32,358 --> 00:24:33,798 Speaker 1: coming out of the shoot. They play in the first 510 00:24:33,838 --> 00:24:36,518 Speaker 1: day day off. I'm talking about relief pitchers pitch on 511 00:24:36,558 --> 00:24:38,158 Speaker 1: the third day day off, and they can pitch on 512 00:24:38,158 --> 00:24:39,758 Speaker 1: the fourth day. Am I right? Is that how it's 513 00:24:39,758 --> 00:24:42,478 Speaker 1: coming up? Yeah? I think you're right. So you could 514 00:24:42,478 --> 00:24:45,518 Speaker 1: go your best relievers three days in a row. Even 515 00:24:45,558 --> 00:24:46,878 Speaker 1: to the point like just say you have a small 516 00:24:46,918 --> 00:24:49,118 Speaker 1: deficit early where you normally wouldn't bring in one of 517 00:24:49,158 --> 00:24:52,318 Speaker 1: your even ahead guys, you might go there now because 518 00:24:52,398 --> 00:24:54,878 Speaker 1: you know there's gonna be rest to be had and 519 00:24:55,118 --> 00:24:57,518 Speaker 1: you want the maybe the pitch part of the pitching 520 00:24:57,518 --> 00:25:00,718 Speaker 1: staff that you have there in order to preserve the 521 00:25:00,798 --> 00:25:02,278 Speaker 1: rest of the group in a bad game or a 522 00:25:02,438 --> 00:25:04,998 Speaker 1: really good game, don't even have to go to those guys. 523 00:25:05,038 --> 00:25:09,078 Speaker 1: So I there's a different there's a different roster construction 524 00:25:09,118 --> 00:25:11,318 Speaker 1: going into these games for both leagues. By the way, 525 00:25:11,438 --> 00:25:14,678 Speaker 1: the book version of this podcast, it's full of we 526 00:25:14,798 --> 00:25:18,198 Speaker 1: call them madnisms, right. In fact, every chapter is headed 527 00:25:18,238 --> 00:25:21,118 Speaker 1: by a madnism. But you also have your own sort 528 00:25:21,158 --> 00:25:26,638 Speaker 1: of glossary Joe in addition to these madnisms. And I 529 00:25:26,718 --> 00:25:31,558 Speaker 1: was thinking about the word jug runs watching the Padres 530 00:25:31,598 --> 00:25:33,478 Speaker 1: put away the Mets, and they had the game pretty 531 00:25:33,558 --> 00:25:36,238 Speaker 1: much in hand, but they really took control and really 532 00:25:36,238 --> 00:25:38,958 Speaker 1: punctured the Mets balloon with the two run hit by 533 00:25:39,038 --> 00:25:42,238 Speaker 1: want Soto off of Das when he came in again. 534 00:25:42,318 --> 00:25:45,478 Speaker 1: And when Das How important is that? And this is 535 00:25:45,478 --> 00:25:48,558 Speaker 1: why you attached the name to it, especially in the postseason, 536 00:25:48,638 --> 00:25:51,118 Speaker 1: when you can have even one by any kind of 537 00:25:51,238 --> 00:25:53,758 Speaker 1: tack on run scoring late in the game, even when 538 00:25:53,798 --> 00:25:55,958 Speaker 1: you do have a lead. When I was instructional League's 539 00:25:55,998 --> 00:25:57,958 Speaker 1: running the Angels in the eighties, I had I called 540 00:25:57,958 --> 00:26:00,358 Speaker 1: it the jug run go for the jugular. What I 541 00:26:00,398 --> 00:26:02,078 Speaker 1: wanted was when we had a lead in the bottom 542 00:26:02,118 --> 00:26:03,478 Speaker 1: of the eighth at home or on the road in 543 00:26:03,518 --> 00:26:05,238 Speaker 1: the top to ninth, I wanted us to push to 544 00:26:05,318 --> 00:26:08,878 Speaker 1: get one more run. Uh. It obviously adds onto your lead. 545 00:26:08,918 --> 00:26:11,518 Speaker 1: Plus it kind of deflects deflates the other team going 546 00:26:11,518 --> 00:26:13,998 Speaker 1: into their last that bat. So I'm really big on that. 547 00:26:14,038 --> 00:26:17,038 Speaker 1: I think it's a it's it should um. I know 548 00:26:18,118 --> 00:26:19,998 Speaker 1: every game when we have that lead, in those moments, 549 00:26:20,038 --> 00:26:22,358 Speaker 1: I would start yelling, let's you know, let's go for 550 00:26:22,358 --> 00:26:23,758 Speaker 1: the jug run, let's go, and I would bring it 551 00:26:23,798 --> 00:26:28,118 Speaker 1: to everybody's attention. It's that important. So I will watch 552 00:26:28,158 --> 00:26:30,078 Speaker 1: these games with that kind of interest. I think that 553 00:26:30,158 --> 00:26:31,998 Speaker 1: game that the run by Sodo that was in the 554 00:26:32,038 --> 00:26:35,038 Speaker 1: eighth and incorrect wasn't a two run Seeling was so 555 00:26:35,078 --> 00:26:37,838 Speaker 1: maybe technically it wasn't a jug run, but it felt 556 00:26:37,878 --> 00:26:39,598 Speaker 1: like it though, but it has it has It could 557 00:26:39,598 --> 00:26:41,758 Speaker 1: be it's just like a sister or a relative of 558 00:26:41,758 --> 00:26:43,518 Speaker 1: the jug run. But I'm big on that. I think 559 00:26:43,558 --> 00:26:46,478 Speaker 1: adding on late matters a lot. In in in your last 560 00:26:46,478 --> 00:26:48,998 Speaker 1: a bat with the lead, you could really deflate the 561 00:26:49,038 --> 00:26:52,038 Speaker 1: other side. By the way I mentioned the most underrated 562 00:26:52,318 --> 00:26:55,518 Speaker 1: car make model. Yeah, what was that? I'm going station 563 00:26:55,558 --> 00:26:58,678 Speaker 1: wagons here, Joe. I mean, I'm partial. I will admit 564 00:26:58,758 --> 00:27:02,318 Speaker 1: full disclosure. As a kid, we had a station wagon. 565 00:27:02,358 --> 00:27:05,758 Speaker 1: I'm one of eight, and we used to call the 566 00:27:05,838 --> 00:27:08,478 Speaker 1: way back, like if you're ever going anywhere as a 567 00:27:08,518 --> 00:27:10,358 Speaker 1: family is like, I got the way back. That was 568 00:27:10,358 --> 00:27:12,678 Speaker 1: the coolest place to sit, the third row in the back. 569 00:27:12,838 --> 00:27:14,838 Speaker 1: And some of those station wagons you could actually look 570 00:27:14,878 --> 00:27:17,438 Speaker 1: out the back window you're facing out that way. We've 571 00:27:17,478 --> 00:27:20,118 Speaker 1: done away with it. We're a country in a world 572 00:27:20,158 --> 00:27:23,158 Speaker 1: full of many vans and SUVs. These kids should have 573 00:27:23,198 --> 00:27:26,598 Speaker 1: the privilege and the honor of riding in the way back. 574 00:27:26,758 --> 00:27:29,158 Speaker 1: What do you think about station wagons? Great? I got one. 575 00:27:29,198 --> 00:27:30,958 Speaker 1: It's parked out in the garage right now. Mine's called 576 00:27:31,038 --> 00:27:34,518 Speaker 1: T Shirt Ted in honor of my wife's deceased father, Teddy. 577 00:27:34,558 --> 00:27:37,598 Speaker 1: Teddy was big on station wagons to the biggest. The 578 00:27:37,638 --> 00:27:39,718 Speaker 1: most important factor with that is to make sure that 579 00:27:39,758 --> 00:27:42,398 Speaker 1: your exhaust system was working properly so that the kids 580 00:27:42,398 --> 00:27:45,158 Speaker 1: in the back don't get officiated. But I love it, 581 00:27:45,198 --> 00:27:47,318 Speaker 1: I love them. I'll wait a second on T Shirt Ted. 582 00:27:47,398 --> 00:27:50,158 Speaker 1: You gotta tell people because I've seen this bad boy 583 00:27:50,638 --> 00:27:53,638 Speaker 1: you gotta describe that year make model colors the whole 584 00:27:53,678 --> 00:27:56,558 Speaker 1: nine yards. Yeah, custom Cruiser eighty eighty five. It's actually 585 00:27:56,558 --> 00:28:01,318 Speaker 1: a Delta eighty five, oldsmood bile. It's got fifty seven 586 00:28:01,318 --> 00:28:04,158 Speaker 1: thousand original miles on it. It It runs like a amp. 587 00:28:04,158 --> 00:28:06,358 Speaker 1: You got a killer stereo system. And I've driven in 588 00:28:06,438 --> 00:28:10,038 Speaker 1: from here a, Pennsylvania to Florida. It's been to Chicago, 589 00:28:10,318 --> 00:28:13,838 Speaker 1: it's been to Arizona for spring training. One of the finest, 590 00:28:14,038 --> 00:28:18,678 Speaker 1: most comfortable rides on the road, the Uhi Delta eighty. 591 00:28:18,678 --> 00:28:21,958 Speaker 1: I think it's a custom Cruiser station wagon bleue with 592 00:28:22,118 --> 00:28:25,038 Speaker 1: an on on the hood. I also have one of 593 00:28:25,078 --> 00:28:28,718 Speaker 1: our paintings, the salvod Or Dolly, which is the tools 594 00:28:28,718 --> 00:28:32,118 Speaker 1: of intelligence, about catching peeking over to look into the 595 00:28:32,158 --> 00:28:34,718 Speaker 1: dugout for a sign, and all the little things that 596 00:28:34,758 --> 00:28:37,238 Speaker 1: I wrote on it. People love it. I I get 597 00:28:37,238 --> 00:28:39,318 Speaker 1: stopped all the time. One year, I just thought I 598 00:28:39,398 --> 00:28:42,678 Speaker 1: needed station wagon and I found a Frady five hundred 599 00:28:42,678 --> 00:28:45,798 Speaker 1: bucks eight thousand five right up here in upstate New York. 600 00:28:45,838 --> 00:28:48,238 Speaker 1: The guy drove it down and it's been my one 601 00:28:48,238 --> 00:28:50,718 Speaker 1: of my faves ever since. That's so cool. You know, 602 00:28:50,758 --> 00:28:52,878 Speaker 1: when I was at really little kid, you think about 603 00:28:52,998 --> 00:28:56,158 Speaker 1: someday when I'm old enough to drive. I wanted one 604 00:28:56,158 --> 00:28:58,638 Speaker 1: of those bullpen carts they had at Chase Stadium. It 605 00:28:58,678 --> 00:29:00,918 Speaker 1: was shaped like a baseball and I couldn't figure out 606 00:29:00,958 --> 00:29:03,398 Speaker 1: why isn't everybody driving those on the road. It was 607 00:29:03,438 --> 00:29:05,358 Speaker 1: so cool. And then I got a little bit older, 608 00:29:05,398 --> 00:29:07,598 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm all about the Vista Cruiser, the 609 00:29:07,598 --> 00:29:09,958 Speaker 1: Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser. When I have a family, That's where 610 00:29:09,958 --> 00:29:12,598 Speaker 1: I'm going. So if you ever come across one and 611 00:29:12,638 --> 00:29:15,678 Speaker 1: your antique hunting, keep me in mind. I shot. But 612 00:29:15,718 --> 00:29:18,438 Speaker 1: they should make a comeback for the for anybody, the wife, that, 613 00:29:18,518 --> 00:29:20,798 Speaker 1: the soccer mom, whatever, the soccer dad. It's so easy 614 00:29:20,798 --> 00:29:22,678 Speaker 1: to throw all the year in the back there and 615 00:29:22,718 --> 00:29:25,198 Speaker 1: get the kids in the back, and it's a way 616 00:29:25,278 --> 00:29:27,518 Speaker 1: comfortable ride. I'm a big fan. Actually I got it. 617 00:29:27,558 --> 00:29:29,958 Speaker 1: I got a seventy six Dodge Van two. But this 618 00:29:29,998 --> 00:29:33,638 Speaker 1: one here just for purely cruising purposes. One of the 619 00:29:33,638 --> 00:29:36,118 Speaker 1: best ever. Alright, cool stuff. Hey Joe, before we get 620 00:29:36,118 --> 00:29:38,718 Speaker 1: out of here, I'm wondering if you see any upsets 621 00:29:38,718 --> 00:29:40,958 Speaker 1: on the horizon, because when I first heard about this 622 00:29:40,998 --> 00:29:44,278 Speaker 1: new postseason format, I didn't think there was any way 623 00:29:44,358 --> 00:29:46,838 Speaker 1: that a one or two seed is going to get 624 00:29:46,918 --> 00:29:50,358 Speaker 1: knocked off in the LDS by definition of the better team, 625 00:29:50,638 --> 00:29:52,758 Speaker 1: they have home field advantage and now they have the 626 00:29:52,798 --> 00:29:56,958 Speaker 1: advantage of arrested pitching staff going in. Do you see 627 00:29:56,958 --> 00:29:59,638 Speaker 1: an upset in the LDS this year among these four 628 00:30:00,078 --> 00:30:02,558 Speaker 1: LDS series, Well, now it's plused out of five, two, 629 00:30:02,638 --> 00:30:04,998 Speaker 1: best out of three, man anything that's that's a tough one. 630 00:30:05,038 --> 00:30:07,838 Speaker 1: You have no chance to recover. Cubs win down three 631 00:30:07,878 --> 00:30:11,438 Speaker 1: games to one. Uh, there's no way to come back 632 00:30:11,478 --> 00:30:13,998 Speaker 1: in these in these shorter series I've talked about. I'm 633 00:30:13,998 --> 00:30:17,118 Speaker 1: really happy that it's no longer the one game wild card. 634 00:30:17,678 --> 00:30:19,118 Speaker 1: So I think when you get the three out of 635 00:30:19,198 --> 00:30:22,598 Speaker 1: five and the rest of teams being able to set 636 00:30:22,598 --> 00:30:24,478 Speaker 1: things up and the other team is pretty much having 637 00:30:24,518 --> 00:30:26,598 Speaker 1: a pedal to the medal for a bit, I do 638 00:30:26,678 --> 00:30:30,638 Speaker 1: believe that the favorites have an advantage right now. That's 639 00:30:30,638 --> 00:30:32,678 Speaker 1: why you play the way you played during the season 640 00:30:32,678 --> 00:30:35,198 Speaker 1: to win your division to get this time off. So 641 00:30:35,358 --> 00:30:37,478 Speaker 1: except what, the Guardians won their division and they're they 642 00:30:37,478 --> 00:30:41,038 Speaker 1: gotta they gotta participate after playing the raising a tough series, 643 00:30:41,318 --> 00:30:43,638 Speaker 1: But the rest it I think have an advantage. Best 644 00:30:43,638 --> 00:30:46,278 Speaker 1: out of five, the favorites will have a chance to 645 00:30:46,278 --> 00:30:50,198 Speaker 1: have that roster show up where they have possibly less holes. 646 00:30:50,718 --> 00:30:56,998 Speaker 1: I'm sure we will get some surprises. This is postseason baseball, unpredictable, unscripted, 647 00:30:57,038 --> 00:31:00,158 Speaker 1: and hey, we're gonna be back here on Thursday with 648 00:31:00,238 --> 00:31:03,758 Speaker 1: another episode of the Book of Joe podcast. And I'm 649 00:31:03,918 --> 00:31:09,198 Speaker 1: sure whatever it is, controversial, spectacular, hopefully it's not umpires 650 00:31:09,278 --> 00:31:12,478 Speaker 1: checking pictures ears, we'll be here to talk about it. 651 00:31:12,558 --> 00:31:14,518 Speaker 1: So Joe looking forward to the next episode of the 652 00:31:14,518 --> 00:31:18,878 Speaker 1: Book of Joe. Say here Tom, Thank you, great job, buddy. 653 00:31:22,798 --> 00:31:25,158 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of I 654 00:31:25,318 --> 00:31:28,598 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit 655 00:31:28,638 --> 00:31:32,078 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 656 00:31:32,118 --> 00:31:33,118 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.