WEBVTT - Sinners, Andrei Rublev (Tarkovsky #2), Madness ‘25 (Finals) 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.360 What kind of a show you guys putting on here today? 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:07.520 You're not interested in art? 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:07.920 Now? 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:09.399 No, Look, we're going to do this thing. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:10.080 We're going to have a. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:15.680 Conversation from Chicago. This is film Spotting. I'm Adam Kempinar 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.720 and I'm Josh Larson. I'm in all over this world. 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.760 I mean ways I don't even know as possible. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:30.360 With his new period horror film Sinners, Ryan Coogler has 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.479 concocted a few new ways for men to die on screen. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.839 Anyway, We've got a review of the latest from the 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.120 director of Black Panther and Creed, And speaking of period films, 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.240 we go back to the Middle Ages for the next 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:46.000 film in our Tarkowsky Marathon, Andre rublev plus the Championship 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:47.839 round of film Spotting Madness. 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:48.920 It's all ahead. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.600 There will be blood. Josh, I'm film Spotting. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.000 I have a competition in beyond it. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.200 I want no one else to succeed. 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.240 This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.720 the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.479 Cross Training tread Plus powered by Peloton Iq. With real 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.600 time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.800 your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:24.959 goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.640 and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross training treadplus at 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:30.320 one Peloton dot com. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.680 Welcome to Film Spotting. This is it, Josh, the Film 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.960 Spotting Madness Best of the Century Final. A bit later 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.800 we will get to the matchup the two films that 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.640 will duke it out for Film Spotting Madness supremacy, and 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.160 we have a third place consolation match as well. 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.640 It always comes so quickly. I got to say, all 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.160 the months and months of work prep you and Sam 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.600 put into it, all the agonizing listeners do about how 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.360 they're going to vote, and then suddenly we're here about 0:01:59.360 --> 0:01:59.920 to Corona Chat. 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.520 Voting is live right now in that Film Spotting Madness Final. 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.000 You can go to film Spotting dot net slash Madness. 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.800 But we'll have all the details later in the show. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.760 Also later, Josh, you'll have a review of the Legend 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.560 of Ochi, which opens this weekend. Every generation gets the 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:17.560 goonies it deserves. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.360 That's pretty apt, actually, I think. 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.440 It's also week two of our Andre Tarkovsky Marathon. Nineteen 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.560 sixty six's Andre ruby Lev was three hours in medieval 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.040 Russia enough for you, Josh? Or were you craving more? 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:34.720 Is it crazy to say I could have had more? 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.440 Surely believe us though I think where it leaves us. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:40.440 I'm like, let's go. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.520 Yeah, I'm ready ultra blik. But it's Tarkovsky, so you 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.560 just kind of want to sit in that space for 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.400 a little while longer somehow. See the full Tarkovsky lineup 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.799 and more at filmspotting dot net slash Marathons. But first, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.800 Ryan Kugler's Sinners. It's Koogler's first film since the twenty 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.400 twenty two Black Panther sequel Wakanda Forever, and his first 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.120 original is non ip what we call it Josh since 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.160 his celebrated twenty eleven debut fruit Vale Station. But like 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.000 every film since his debut, it does feature Michael B. Jordan, 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.959 this time in a dual role as twin brothers Smoke 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.519 and Stack such great Names. After years away, the brothers 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:21.800 return to their hometown and the Jim Crow era South, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:26.200 only to find a supernatural evil awaiting them. Here's one 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.000 me Mosaku and Omar Benson Miller in a clip. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.440 What y'all doing? Just step aside and let me hone 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:37.080 in now, why you need him to do that? You 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.960 begin strong enough to push basses? 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.360 What? I wouldn't be too polite, now, would it, miss any. 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:45.600 I don't know why I'm talking to you anyway. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:48.640 Don't talk to him. You're talking to me right now. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:50.880 Why you can't just walk your big ass up in 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:57.520 here without an environment? They admit to it, mid to 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.760 what that you dy. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.160 To my mind? Adam? We heard in that clip. One 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.600 of the highlights of Sinners one me Mosaku in the 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.920 supporting role of Annie, this former lover to Michael B. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:12.760 Jordan's smoke. 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.600 Annie knows a thing or two about the spiritual world, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.400 which comes in handy when things get spooky in Sinners. 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:25.080 I remember Mosaku from the HBO series Lovecraft Country, which 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.200 had a similar vibe to Sinners and also gave her 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.960 a chance to display a similar power and authority. She's 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.160 great here as our other supporting players, like how about 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.360 del Roy Lindo as an aging bluesman or Jack O'Connell 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.800 remembering him in Startup a movie I do. We both 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:45.640 loved Adam and I had lost track. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.120 And we were right. We were right about Jack O'Connell. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.720 Apparently it took eleven years, but we were right. 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.880 He plays an Irish immigrant here who, let's say, wants 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.360 to bring his own sort of music to the juke 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.839 joint where much of the action takes place. And of 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.279 course there is Mike b. Jordan in this dual lead 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.640 role of twins Smoke and Stack. I can't wait tear 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:11.280 your thoughts on his performance. So incredible ensemble cast anchoring 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.840 some thrilling moments where writer director Ryan Coogler and his 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:21.040 filmmaking team employees cinematography, music, sound design, choreography to create 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:28.480 sequences that are dazzlingly cinematic. But Sinners more than those showstoppers, Adam, 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.120 does it all hold together? This is a film running 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.400 well over two hours. It shifts gears rather abruptly. I 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.120 feel about halfway through from a period drama to a 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:44.120 genre exercise, and it includes an extensive post credit sequence 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.240 set decades later than the main narrative. So I want 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.919 to know does all that ambition pay off for you? 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.000 Is Sinners a collection of great cinematic moments or does 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.200 it add up to something more monumental? 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.920 Well? Can't we just enjoy all those great cinematic moments? 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.720 Maybe that's absolutely Josh, and I think I think here 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.000 it probably could be enough, because as good as Coogler's 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.200 work to date has largely been, I wasn't fully prepared 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.640 for how burly I'm gonna say and how fun this 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.480 film is. These two movies otherwise have almost nothing in common. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.120 But the last time I felt like I could recommend 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:27.320 a movie to anyone from cinephile to casual moviegoer and 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.880 everybody in between, it was The Holdovers, and I was 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.440 with family for Easter, and I had multiple people who 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.360 I don't normally have conversations with about movies come up 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.280 to me and asked me if I had seen it yet, 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.479 because they just saw Sinners and loved it. Really, it 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.279 didn't surprise me. It did not surprise me a bit, 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.640 and it didn't surprise me a bit to see that 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.520 it won the box office either, And there's a lot 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.320 of conversation around how much money it made. Because it's 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:59.560 a film working on every level, on the levels of story, performance, production, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.960 we can add in some specific production elements like cinematography, 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:09.240 like Ludovic Gorenson's score, all of the music in this film. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:14.720 Sinners is a redemption movie, a revenge movie with elements 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:19.720 of black exploitation and certainly a red blood soaked horror movie. 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.880 It's also deeply romantic and has the rhythms and audaciousness 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.120 of some of our boldest musicals. Kogler seems to be 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:33.600 drawing from a deep well of cinematic and artistic influences, 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.280 but still making a film that feels so personal, as 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.960 if it's been shaped and sharpened his entire life. Everything 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.880 he's done professionally and everything he's experienced personally has been 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.800 shaped and sharpened into this. And I said that the 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.200 great cinematic moments might be enough. But the fact is, Josh, 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:57.800 I do think all the ambition pays off. I think 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:02.200 there is more. I think there's revelation too, revelation that 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.240 that goes beyond the transcendence of Preacher Boy Sammy, his 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:11.080 musical number that comes maybe about halfway into this film. Otherwise, Josh, 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:13.080 you know the scene I'm talking about, the early favorite 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.400 for scene of the year, and if something somehow does 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:21.400 beat it out, it's undoubtedly the music moment. Right, There's 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.760 a choice Coogler makes and a line that he gives 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.760 us in the screenplay that really gives you something to 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.160 chew on in the moment and after you've left the theater. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.880 And I don't think I'm getting into spoiler territory here. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.920 It's all stuff that's hinted at or suggested in the trailer, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.480 and based on the box office, I'm assuming and hoping 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.760 that most people who are listening to this conversation Josh 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.480 have seen the movie. The choice is making that lead 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.880 vampire played by Jack O'Connell, his character's name is Remick, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:09:01.360 making him irish, and the line is I want your music, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:06.240 I want your stories. The wrinkle here with these vampires 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:11.719 is that once bitten Remick and presumably the other vampires 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:17.640 that he's turned, they consume not just you, but your 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:22.720 entire being, your identity, your memories, your thoughts, your feelings. 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.679 So on a literal level, it's as if all that 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:32.120 knowledge imviews him with more and more power, which enables 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.000 him to go on surviving and to go on consuming. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.320 But metaphorically, and arn't vampires always a metaphor for something. 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.320 This is black culture we're talking about with our main characters. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.800 This is black art, black narratives being consumed and exploited. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.320 So let's just say, when I saw the movie and 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.960 then a couple hours later, saw somebody tweet about how 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.800 Ryan Kogler orchestrated a deal where ownership rights revert to 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.400 him after twenty five years. I thought, yeah, that checks out, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.760 That really checks out based on what I just saw 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.920 unfold that character. Then Remick is the villain. He's insidious 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.720 and evil, and he is white. But by making him irish, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.679 at least the implication or the suggestion Josh that I'm 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:25.000 still unpacking is that he represents a group of people 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.560 and a culture with its own unique stories and its 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.920 own unique stories of suffering and exploitation, with its own 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.040 music and its own language which we hear, and he 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.640 was possibly once preyed upon then too, which also somehow 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:45.240 makes him potentially sympathetic. It's a layer I found just 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.800 so striking, and it's something that I haven't shaken. And 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.880 it's significant that there is something attractive, Josh sinister, but 0:10:53.000 --> 0:11:00.000 attractive about joining Remick's community. That's what they are outside 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.240 the Duke Joint. They're a collective, or at least that's 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.120 what he intentionally makes them present themselves. As they dance 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.520 in a circle, they sing in unison, they have this 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:16.079 shared joyous experience. They've all been assimilated, and if you're 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.280 someone who has spent your whole life having to fight 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:23.560 to survive because the dominant white culture doesn't accept you, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.520 it would seem awfully enticing to want to be part 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.760 of that community potentially, wouldn't it. And I haven't even 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:32.880 mentioned that, and I won't mention for fear of spoilers 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.800 that post credit sequence that you mentioned, And someone online 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.679 here reminded me as well that that's something Coogler is 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.480 pretty much done throughout all of his films. He likes 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.080 to have a post credit sequence that is actually doing 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.559 a lot of work and isn't extraneous by any means, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.080 actually seems crucial to the film. That's certainly the case here, 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.800 where all I'll say is a character makes a choice 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.760 that maybe is a bit surprising, but only because we 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:00.680 think we know what that care is going to do, 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:06.160 largely because of so many other movies or movie characters 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:10.480 who have been put in similar predicaments. And maybe I 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.480 should have been smarter based on the film I just 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.520 watched for two hours of seventeen minutes, that of course 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.800 Ryan Coogler wasn't going to do anything conventional and would 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.400 surprise us in that moment as well. 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.320 So you've already teased out a couple of the major 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.600 ideas at play here, which I absolutely agree with that 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.120 they're in it. I think if I'm if my enthusiasm 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.959 is a little tempered, which where I might be more 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:40.240 on the end of amazing cinematic moments, provocative ideas throughout, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.560 I don't know if it all adds up to a 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.400 cohesive thing to the same degree. Is let's stick with 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.520 your remic example, all right, because that line you quoted 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.840 about wanting your music, wanting your stories, there's absolutely elements 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.760 in this film that connect with that and support that, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.760 and that could be a theme I think the standout 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.360 seat quins that you've already mentioned. So we'll talk a 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.600 little bit more about it here and move and move on. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.440 But this single take sequence at the juke joint during 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.880 a musical performance with all the dancers on the floor 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.600 and we're swooping through them among them, and suddenly we realize, 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.720 wait a minute, is that is that a DJ over there? 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.320 Oh? It is anachronistic and yeah, a little bit. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.200 And then we move on and then there's you know, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.440 some rappers over here, and the sound design, which I 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.559 think is like one of the MVP elements of this film. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.680 The sound design is incorporating those styles to the larger 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.560 song we're hearing. So this is all touching on exactly 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.120 what you just mentioned, Adam, about this idea of black art, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.120 how it has transformed over the eras but also been 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.440 co opted over the eras, and here is a space 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.160 where it is being held and treasured in community that 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.480 completely aligns with the I want your music, I want 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.920 your stories from Remick. But we also have that other 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.920 element you talked about him being an Irish immigrant referring 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:05.559 seeing his own oppression as an Irish immigrant and losing 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.760 control of himself. Here's where a whole nother thematic thread 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:14.160 comes in the prospect the specter of religion as an 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:21.640 oppressive force as decidedly against the freedom that the music 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.080 at the juke joint is enabling folks to experience. And 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:30.680 so there I thought, okay, this is this is fascinating 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:36.240 that he is trying to win over this group by saying, listen, 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.240 I've had religion force fed to me. As well. There's 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:40.920 a moment where a character thinks he's gonna die and 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.560 he starts saying the Lord's Prayer and it get how 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.560 creepy when the Horde it's almost like this bored horde 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:48.040 they are, I'm gonna probably get in trouble with Star 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.640 Trek people on that, but something like this. They all 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.800 start chanting the Lord's Prayer too, but in a mocking way. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.760 And the point of that, Remick says is, listen, we've 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.840 been manipulated by religion as well. I'm offering you some 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.560 thing separate and freeing. But that's that's at the same 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.680 time kind of different and not exactly in parallel with 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.640 his being representative of white appropriation of black culture. So 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.480 it's almost like this is a movie stuffed with so 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:20.160 many intriguing ideas and they're not all working in concert. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.640 The one that I did latch onto and I think 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.760 gives it its most cohesion, is this idea of music 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.120 as liberation. We see that in the very opening scene 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:34.000 again where Sammy played by Miles Catton, the young cousin 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.640 of Smoke and Stack, who's an aspiring blues player. He's 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.120 in this opposition with his pastor father right, and he 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.880 sees music as offering the liberation of Saturday. And then 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:45.680 he says to his father and then I'll come back 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.840 on Sunday. You know, he sees this stark, secular sacred line, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.000 which is another fascinating idea the movie sort of explores. 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.400 And so there's just so much going on here. I 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.640 have to admit there is a part of me. You 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:03.480 got the great word, you found the great word. I 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.000 was trying to figure out how do I describe this 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:06.840 as something other than big burly. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:08.000 It's the word. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.160 There's part of me that admires the burliness but also wishes. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:14.960 You know, man, what if this had been an eighty 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.560 five minute genre piece from the get go, like the 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.360 vampire thing was in the opening sequence. And it's not 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.880 only that that would have cut back on the running time, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.720 but I wonder if that sort of forced discipline would 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.920 have made Kogler realize, what do I really want this 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.920 to be about? What can this to your point about 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:41.120 vampire metaphors? What can this really capture well and richly, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.640 not heavily, not obviously, but in a thrilling genre exercise. 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.680 And maybe that's just my own taste. That's not to 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.120 take away from what's accomplished here. I think maybe if 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.440 push came to shove, I would say, just give me 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.640 it all, Give me it all. If it's a little messy, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.000 a little contradictory and theme, but I still get all 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.199 of these characters. You know, a bigger movie allows for 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.960 more characters, all of this music, and all of these 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.359 sequences we've already touched on. So I'm a little torn 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.000 on it. But if I'm slightly less enthusiastic then you, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:16.040 it's for that reason. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.679 Yeah, I never felt that contradiction. And to go with 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.879 another C word that you've used, I felt that it 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.439 was ultimately cohesive, and maybe more importantly, I saw it 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.239 as just adding these interesting layers of complexity. And so 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.000 for me, having this film not be the eighty five 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.080 minute genre exercise, as much fun as that might be, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.640 this film manages to be fun but still really give 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.160 us something to think about as well. And you talked 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.359 about all of those characters, the scale of this film. 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.800 I think what I'm most impressed with is that we 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.240 do meet so many characters, and there are so many 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.080 different not only themes, but just narrative threads. It should 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.560 feel so much more it didn't. To me. It should 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.199 feel so much more unwieldy and messier than it is, 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.399 And I never felt that messiness. 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.200 Josh, I'd agree with Seth. I wouldn't say it's unwieldy. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.000 Okay, except for maybe I will say this when the 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:20.240 blood really starts spilling. I had two reactions. One, a 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:26.600 character makes a choice that the plot needs the character 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.320 to make. And I'm not saying that Coogler didn't give 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:36.399 us the crumbs in the forest to lead us on 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.840 the trail to make us understand why that character makes 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.720 that choice. But I, even with those crumbs, didn't fully 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.480 believe it. It felt a little bit too much like 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:53.600 a plot contrivance for me. And then the action itself 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.240 the only bit of filmmaking I will question it all 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:58.120 in this film, and I do want to go back 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.040 and watch it again and see if maybe there was 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.520 something about it that I just found distracting. But when 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.280 the big battle scene occurs in this film, that's the 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.359 only part where I felt Coogler losing his way a 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.480 little bit in terms of the intense focus otherwise of 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:16.680 this film, And maybe intense focus is the best way 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.879 I can describe one of the things I loved about it, 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.800 that burliness that comes just from Michael B. Jordan's dual 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.440 performance as Smoke and Stack the prologue is really interesting. 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.760 That moment right after the prologue that brings us to 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.080 the moment before we go back a day to all 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.000 of these events. That's certainly provocative as well. But josh 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.240 I knew this movie was going to be something when 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.879 he opened that third scene, if you will, on Smoke 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.280 and Stack, just sitting there by the car with the angle, 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.600 the kind of low angle on those two, that very 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:58.720 natural light outside, the looks on their faces, that intense focus. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.320 Characters who seem to have not just a toughness, but 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:07.200 a hardness to them that I think the entire movie reflects, 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.320 but they also are still open to They haven't they 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.880 haven't been killed inside, They're not dead inside. They're still 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.040 open to some of the wonders of the world. They 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.240 certainly still have feelings for each other as brothers, and 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:25.640 they have aspirations that and ambitions that you can really respect. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.359 You get to the moment where chaos ensues, and it 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.480 felt like chaos for me in a film that otherwise 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.720 felt so so controlled, but controlled in the best way. 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.960 Where when Coogler wants to take the roof off the place, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.520 quite literally, the roof comes off and you believe it 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.080 in that moment. In those moments, in some of those 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.560 fight scenes, I didn't understand where the characters were. I 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.280 didn't understand what the characters were doing. I didn't understand 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.919 completely how the characters were even surviving. And that's the 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.440 only part for me, John that I am uneasy about. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.320 Yeah, I would agree with that, And you know, it 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.560 reminds me that the climactic fight scene in Black Panther 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.119 is you know, a real weak spot for that filmy too, 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.480 and so you know it's a similar sort of fight 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.640 choreography and staging. Yeah, there's some of that here too. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.399 And then I will also say there is sort of 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.679 an epilogue before the credits though that I don't want 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.520 to get into too much, but it evolves an encounter 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.760 with the Clan, which has been another story throw that's 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:35.119 popped up that also seemed strange in and of itself 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.080 in terms of why it's there, but. 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:38.919 Also that'sploitation element. 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:44.080 It's definitely gives you some of that black exploitation, you know, cathartic. Yes, 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.879 that that is that element as well. But yeah, in 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.639 terms of the staging too, I think it's similar to 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.520 that chaotic fight sequence you're talking about. But in terms of, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.800 you know, Michael B. Jordan, this lead performance, I want 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:55.560 to hear a little bit more from you on that 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.520 because I at once loved it because he's having such 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.320 a good time and it's so charismatic and who doesn't 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:06.040 want to Michael B. Jordan's, but also was left a 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.320 little wanting, if that makes sense. I really feel like 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:17.200 this movie for me needed a more distinctive separation between 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.560 Smoke and Stack, and the character outlines are there, right. 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:24.280 Stack is looser, he's got he's freer, and I love 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.159 how he's sort of this this tempter with booze and money. 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.399 Right away he walks around town and he's cajoling everyone. 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.840 And then Smoke is he's more tightly wound. He's the 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.480 planner of the two. He's making sure, you know, the 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:39.040 bills get paid, however bills they're working with. So I 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.840 get that those character sketches, but I think in terms 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.440 of just the feel of the two of them, there 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:49.080 is a climactic fight. I think we can say that 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.160 would have for it to matter more beyond just the 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:55.760 basic logistics, I think we would had to have had 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.440 a sense of the difference or at least the tension 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.320 between these brothers earlier for that to really work. It 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.399 actually made me think of his performance in Kugler's Fruitvale Station. 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:12.720 You know, Oscar Grant, I think is the real world 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.880 figure he's playing there, and how this was a guy 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.000 he brought. The challenge there was not to make this 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.240 victim of police violence, you know, a saint or a sinner, 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.280 to use the language of this movie, but to show 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.880 that he was fully human. And so Kugler there gave 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.600 us two sides of one guy who is he can 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.080 be rough, he could be intimidating, and then a scene 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.280 later or in the same scene to a different character, 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.720 he can be understanding and loving. And it was those 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:45.120 variations in persona from Fruitvale. I'm surprised wasn't more here 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.080