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Speaker 1: What kind of a show you guys putting on here today?

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Speaker 1: You're not interested in art?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 3: No, Look, we're going to do this thing.

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Speaker 2: We're going to have a.

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Speaker 1: Conversation from Chicago. This is film Spotting. I'm Adam Kempinar

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Speaker 1: and I'm Josh Larson. I'm in all over this world.

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Speaker 4: I mean ways I don't even know as possible.

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Speaker 3: With his new period horror film Sinners, Ryan Coogler has

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Speaker 3: concocted a few new ways for men to die on screen.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, We've got a review of the latest from the

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Speaker 1: director of Black Panther and Creed, And speaking of period films,

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Speaker 1: we go back to the Middle Ages for the next

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Speaker 1: film in our Tarkowsky Marathon, Andre rublev plus the Championship

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Speaker 1: round of film Spotting Madness.

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Speaker 3: It's all ahead.

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Speaker 1: There will be blood. Josh, I'm film Spotting.

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Speaker 2: I have a competition in beyond it.

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Speaker 1: I want no one else to succeed.

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Speaker 4: This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through

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Speaker 4: the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton

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Speaker 4: your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your

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Speaker 4: one Peloton dot com.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Film Spotting. This is it, Josh, the Film

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Speaker 1: Spotting Madness Best of the Century Final. A bit later

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Speaker 1: we will get to the matchup the two films that

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Speaker 1: will duke it out for Film Spotting Madness supremacy, and

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Speaker 1: we have a third place consolation match as well.

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Speaker 3: It always comes so quickly. I got to say, all

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Speaker 3: the months and months of work prep you and Sam

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Speaker 3: put into it, all the agonizing listeners do about how

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Speaker 3: they're going to vote, and then suddenly we're here about

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Speaker 3: to Corona Chat.

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Speaker 1: Voting is live right now in that Film Spotting Madness Final.

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Speaker 1: You can go to film Spotting dot net slash Madness.

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Speaker 1: But we'll have all the details later in the show.

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Speaker 1: Also later, Josh, you'll have a review of the Legend

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Speaker 1: of Ochi, which opens this weekend. Every generation gets the

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Speaker 1: goonies it deserves.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty apt, actually, I think.

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Speaker 1: It's also week two of our Andre Tarkovsky Marathon. Nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six's Andre ruby Lev was three hours in medieval

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Speaker 1: Russia enough for you, Josh? Or were you craving more?

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Speaker 3: Is it crazy to say I could have had more?

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Speaker 1: Surely believe us though I think where it leaves us.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, let's go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm ready ultra blik. But it's Tarkovsky, so you

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Speaker 1: just kind of want to sit in that space for

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Speaker 1: a little while longer somehow. See the full Tarkovsky lineup

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Speaker 1: and more at filmspotting dot net slash Marathons. But first,

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Speaker 1: Ryan Kugler's Sinners. It's Koogler's first film since the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two Black Panther sequel Wakanda Forever, and his first

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Speaker 1: original is non ip what we call it Josh since

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Speaker 1: his celebrated twenty eleven debut fruit Vale Station. But like

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Speaker 1: every film since his debut, it does feature Michael B. Jordan,

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Speaker 1: this time in a dual role as twin brothers Smoke

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Speaker 1: and Stack such great Names. After years away, the brothers

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Speaker 1: return to their hometown and the Jim Crow era South,

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Speaker 1: only to find a supernatural evil awaiting them. Here's one

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Speaker 1: me Mosaku and Omar Benson Miller in a clip.

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Speaker 2: What y'all doing? Just step aside and let me hone

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Speaker 2: in now, why you need him to do that? You

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Speaker 2: begin strong enough to push basses?

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Speaker 1: What? I wouldn't be too polite, now, would it, miss any.

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Speaker 5: I don't know why I'm talking to you anyway.

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Speaker 2: Don't talk to him. You're talking to me right now.

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Speaker 2: Why you can't just walk your big ass up in

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Speaker 2: here without an environment? They admit to it, mid to

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Speaker 2: what that you dy.

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Speaker 3: To my mind? Adam? We heard in that clip. One

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Speaker 3: of the highlights of Sinners one me Mosaku in the

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Speaker 3: supporting role of Annie, this former lover to Michael B.

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Speaker 1: Jordan's smoke.

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Speaker 3: Annie knows a thing or two about the spiritual world,

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Speaker 3: which comes in handy when things get spooky in Sinners.

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Speaker 3: I remember Mosaku from the HBO series Lovecraft Country, which

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Speaker 3: had a similar vibe to Sinners and also gave her

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Speaker 3: a chance to display a similar power and authority. She's

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Speaker 3: great here as our other supporting players, like how about

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Speaker 3: del Roy Lindo as an aging bluesman or Jack O'Connell

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Speaker 3: remembering him in Startup a movie I do. We both

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Speaker 3: loved Adam and I had lost track.

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Speaker 1: And we were right. We were right about Jack O'Connell.

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Speaker 1: Apparently it took eleven years, but we were right.

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Speaker 3: He plays an Irish immigrant here who, let's say, wants

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Speaker 3: to bring his own sort of music to the juke

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Speaker 3: joint where much of the action takes place. And of

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Speaker 3: course there is Mike b. Jordan in this dual lead

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Speaker 3: role of twins Smoke and Stack. I can't wait tear

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Speaker 3: your thoughts on his performance. So incredible ensemble cast anchoring

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Speaker 3: some thrilling moments where writer director Ryan Coogler and his

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Speaker 3: filmmaking team employees cinematography, music, sound design, choreography to create

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Speaker 3: sequences that are dazzlingly cinematic. But Sinners more than those showstoppers, Adam,

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Speaker 3: does it all hold together? This is a film running

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Speaker 3: well over two hours. It shifts gears rather abruptly. I

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Speaker 3: feel about halfway through from a period drama to a

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Speaker 3: genre exercise, and it includes an extensive post credit sequence

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Speaker 3: set decades later than the main narrative. So I want

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Speaker 3: to know does all that ambition pay off for you?

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Speaker 3: Is Sinners a collection of great cinematic moments or does

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Speaker 3: it add up to something more monumental?

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Speaker 1: Well? Can't we just enjoy all those great cinematic moments?

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's absolutely Josh, and I think I think here

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Speaker 1: it probably could be enough, because as good as Coogler's

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Speaker 1: work to date has largely been, I wasn't fully prepared

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Speaker 1: for how burly I'm gonna say and how fun this

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Speaker 1: film is. These two movies otherwise have almost nothing in common.

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Speaker 1: But the last time I felt like I could recommend

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Speaker 1: a movie to anyone from cinephile to casual moviegoer and

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Speaker 1: everybody in between, it was The Holdovers, and I was

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Speaker 1: with family for Easter, and I had multiple people who

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Speaker 1: I don't normally have conversations with about movies come up

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Speaker 1: to me and asked me if I had seen it yet,

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Speaker 1: because they just saw Sinners and loved it. Really, it

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Speaker 1: didn't surprise me. It did not surprise me a bit,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't surprise me a bit to see that

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Speaker 1: it won the box office either, And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of conversation around how much money it made. Because it's

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Speaker 1: a film working on every level, on the levels of story, performance, production,

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Speaker 1: we can add in some specific production elements like cinematography,

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Speaker 1: like Ludovic Gorenson's score, all of the music in this film.

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Speaker 1: Sinners is a redemption movie, a revenge movie with elements

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Speaker 1: of black exploitation and certainly a red blood soaked horror movie.

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Speaker 1: It's also deeply romantic and has the rhythms and audaciousness

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Speaker 1: of some of our boldest musicals. Kogler seems to be

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Speaker 1: drawing from a deep well of cinematic and artistic influences,

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Speaker 1: but still making a film that feels so personal, as

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Speaker 1: if it's been shaped and sharpened his entire life. Everything

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Speaker 1: he's done professionally and everything he's experienced personally has been

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Speaker 1: shaped and sharpened into this. And I said that the

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Speaker 1: great cinematic moments might be enough. But the fact is, Josh,

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Speaker 1: I do think all the ambition pays off. I think

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Speaker 1: there is more. I think there's revelation too, revelation that

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Speaker 1: that goes beyond the transcendence of Preacher Boy Sammy, his

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Speaker 1: musical number that comes maybe about halfway into this film. Otherwise, Josh,

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Speaker 1: you know the scene I'm talking about, the early favorite

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Speaker 1: for scene of the year, and if something somehow does

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Speaker 1: beat it out, it's undoubtedly the music moment. Right, There's

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Speaker 1: a choice Coogler makes and a line that he gives

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Speaker 1: us in the screenplay that really gives you something to

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Speaker 1: chew on in the moment and after you've left the theater.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think I'm getting into spoiler territory here.

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Speaker 1: It's all stuff that's hinted at or suggested in the trailer,

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Speaker 1: and based on the box office, I'm assuming and hoping

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Speaker 1: that most people who are listening to this conversation Josh

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Speaker 1: have seen the movie. The choice is making that lead

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Speaker 1: vampire played by Jack O'Connell, his character's name is Remick,

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Speaker 1: making him irish, and the line is I want your music,

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Speaker 1: I want your stories. The wrinkle here with these vampires

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Speaker 1: is that once bitten Remick and presumably the other vampires

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Speaker 1: that he's turned, they consume not just you, but your

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Speaker 1: entire being, your identity, your memories, your thoughts, your feelings.

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Speaker 1: So on a literal level, it's as if all that

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Speaker 1: knowledge imviews him with more and more power, which enables

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Speaker 1: him to go on surviving and to go on consuming.

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Speaker 1: But metaphorically, and arn't vampires always a metaphor for something.

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Speaker 1: This is black culture we're talking about with our main characters.

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Speaker 1: This is black art, black narratives being consumed and exploited.

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Speaker 1: So let's just say, when I saw the movie and

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Speaker 1: then a couple hours later, saw somebody tweet about how

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Speaker 1: Ryan Kogler orchestrated a deal where ownership rights revert to

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Speaker 1: him after twenty five years. I thought, yeah, that checks out,

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Speaker 1: That really checks out based on what I just saw

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Speaker 1: unfold that character. Then Remick is the villain. He's insidious

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Speaker 1: and evil, and he is white. But by making him irish,

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Speaker 1: at least the implication or the suggestion Josh that I'm

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Speaker 1: still unpacking is that he represents a group of people

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Speaker 1: and a culture with its own unique stories and its

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Speaker 1: own unique stories of suffering and exploitation, with its own

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Speaker 1: music and its own language which we hear, and he

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Speaker 1: was possibly once preyed upon then too, which also somehow

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Speaker 1: makes him potentially sympathetic. It's a layer I found just

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Speaker 1: so striking, and it's something that I haven't shaken. And

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Speaker 1: it's significant that there is something attractive, Josh sinister, but

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Speaker 1: attractive about joining Remick's community. That's what they are outside

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Speaker 1: the Duke Joint. They're a collective, or at least that's

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Speaker 1: what he intentionally makes them present themselves. As they dance

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Speaker 1: in a circle, they sing in unison, they have this

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Speaker 1: shared joyous experience. They've all been assimilated, and if you're

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Speaker 1: someone who has spent your whole life having to fight

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Speaker 1: to survive because the dominant white culture doesn't accept you,

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Speaker 1: it would seem awfully enticing to want to be part

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Speaker 1: of that community potentially, wouldn't it. And I haven't even

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Speaker 1: mentioned that, and I won't mention for fear of spoilers

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Speaker 1: that post credit sequence that you mentioned, And someone online

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Speaker 1: here reminded me as well that that's something Coogler is

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Speaker 1: pretty much done throughout all of his films. He likes

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Speaker 1: to have a post credit sequence that is actually doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of work and isn't extraneous by any means,

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Speaker 1: actually seems crucial to the film. That's certainly the case here,

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Speaker 1: where all I'll say is a character makes a choice

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Speaker 1: that maybe is a bit surprising, but only because we

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Speaker 1: think we know what that care is going to do,

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Speaker 1: largely because of so many other movies or movie characters

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Speaker 1: who have been put in similar predicaments. And maybe I

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Speaker 1: should have been smarter based on the film I just

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Speaker 1: watched for two hours of seventeen minutes, that of course

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Speaker 1: Ryan Coogler wasn't going to do anything conventional and would

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Speaker 1: surprise us in that moment as well.

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Speaker 3: So you've already teased out a couple of the major

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Speaker 3: ideas at play here, which I absolutely agree with that

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Speaker 3: they're in it. I think if I'm if my enthusiasm

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Speaker 3: is a little tempered, which where I might be more

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Speaker 3: on the end of amazing cinematic moments, provocative ideas throughout,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it all adds up to a

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Speaker 3: cohesive thing to the same degree. Is let's stick with

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Speaker 3: your remic example, all right, because that line you quoted

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Speaker 3: about wanting your music, wanting your stories, there's absolutely elements

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Speaker 3: in this film that connect with that and support that,

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Speaker 3: and that could be a theme I think the standout

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Speaker 3: seat quins that you've already mentioned. So we'll talk a

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Speaker 3: little bit more about it here and move and move on.

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Speaker 3: But this single take sequence at the juke joint during

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Speaker 3: a musical performance with all the dancers on the floor

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Speaker 3: and we're swooping through them among them, and suddenly we realize,

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, is that is that a DJ over there?

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Speaker 1: Oh? It is anachronistic and yeah, a little bit.

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Speaker 3: And then we move on and then there's you know,

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Speaker 3: some rappers over here, and the sound design, which I

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Speaker 3: think is like one of the MVP elements of this film.

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Speaker 3: The sound design is incorporating those styles to the larger

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Speaker 3: song we're hearing. So this is all touching on exactly

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Speaker 3: what you just mentioned, Adam, about this idea of black art,

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Speaker 3: how it has transformed over the eras but also been

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Speaker 3: co opted over the eras, and here is a space

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Speaker 3: where it is being held and treasured in community that

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Speaker 3: completely aligns with the I want your music, I want

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Speaker 3: your stories from Remick. But we also have that other

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Speaker 3: element you talked about him being an Irish immigrant referring

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Speaker 3: seeing his own oppression as an Irish immigrant and losing

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Speaker 3: control of himself. Here's where a whole nother thematic thread

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Speaker 3: comes in the prospect the specter of religion as an

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Speaker 3: oppressive force as decidedly against the freedom that the music

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Speaker 3: at the juke joint is enabling folks to experience. And

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Speaker 3: so there I thought, okay, this is this is fascinating

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Speaker 3: that he is trying to win over this group by saying, listen,

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Speaker 3: I've had religion force fed to me. As well. There's

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Speaker 3: a moment where a character thinks he's gonna die and

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Speaker 3: he starts saying the Lord's Prayer and it get how

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Speaker 3: creepy when the Horde it's almost like this bored horde

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Speaker 3: they are, I'm gonna probably get in trouble with Star

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Speaker 3: Trek people on that, but something like this. They all

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Speaker 3: start chanting the Lord's Prayer too, but in a mocking way.

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Speaker 3: And the point of that, Remick says is, listen, we've

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Speaker 3: been manipulated by religion as well. I'm offering you some

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Speaker 3: thing separate and freeing. But that's that's at the same

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Speaker 3: time kind of different and not exactly in parallel with

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Speaker 3: his being representative of white appropriation of black culture. So

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Speaker 3: it's almost like this is a movie stuffed with so

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Speaker 3: many intriguing ideas and they're not all working in concert.

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Speaker 3: The one that I did latch onto and I think

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Speaker 3: gives it its most cohesion, is this idea of music

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Speaker 3: as liberation. We see that in the very opening scene

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Speaker 3: again where Sammy played by Miles Catton, the young cousin

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Speaker 3: of Smoke and Stack, who's an aspiring blues player. He's

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Speaker 3: in this opposition with his pastor father right, and he

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Speaker 3: sees music as offering the liberation of Saturday. And then

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Speaker 3: he says to his father and then I'll come back

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Speaker 3: on Sunday. You know, he sees this stark, secular sacred line,

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Speaker 3: which is another fascinating idea the movie sort of explores.

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Speaker 3: And so there's just so much going on here. I

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Speaker 3: have to admit there is a part of me. You

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Speaker 3: got the great word, you found the great word. I

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Speaker 3: was trying to figure out how do I describe this

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Speaker 3: as something other than big burly.

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Speaker 1: It's the word.

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Speaker 3: There's part of me that admires the burliness but also wishes.

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Speaker 3: You know, man, what if this had been an eighty

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Speaker 3: five minute genre piece from the get go, like the

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Speaker 3: vampire thing was in the opening sequence. And it's not

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Speaker 3: only that that would have cut back on the running time,

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Speaker 3: but I wonder if that sort of forced discipline would

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Speaker 3: have made Kogler realize, what do I really want this

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Speaker 3: to be about? What can this to your point about

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Speaker 3: vampire metaphors? What can this really capture well and richly,

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Speaker 3: not heavily, not obviously, but in a thrilling genre exercise.

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Speaker 3: And maybe that's just my own taste. That's not to

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Speaker 3: take away from what's accomplished here. I think maybe if

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Speaker 3: push came to shove, I would say, just give me

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Speaker 3: it all, Give me it all. If it's a little messy,

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Speaker 3: a little contradictory and theme, but I still get all

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Speaker 3: of these characters. You know, a bigger movie allows for

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Speaker 3: more characters, all of this music, and all of these

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Speaker 3: sequences we've already touched on. So I'm a little torn

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Speaker 3: on it. But if I'm slightly less enthusiastic then you,

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Speaker 3: it's for that reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I never felt that contradiction. And to go with

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Speaker 1: another C word that you've used, I felt that it

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Speaker 1: was ultimately cohesive, and maybe more importantly, I saw it

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Speaker 1: as just adding these interesting layers of complexity. And so

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Speaker 1: for me, having this film not be the eighty five

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Speaker 1: minute genre exercise, as much fun as that might be,

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Speaker 1: this film manages to be fun but still really give

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Speaker 1: us something to think about as well. And you talked

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Speaker 1: about all of those characters, the scale of this film.

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Speaker 1: I think what I'm most impressed with is that we

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Speaker 1: do meet so many characters, and there are so many

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Speaker 1: different not only themes, but just narrative threads. It should

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Speaker 1: feel so much more it didn't. To me. It should

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Speaker 1: feel so much more unwieldy and messier than it is,

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Speaker 1: And I never felt that messiness.

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Speaker 3: Josh, I'd agree with Seth. I wouldn't say it's unwieldy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, except for maybe I will say this when the

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Speaker 1: blood really starts spilling. I had two reactions. One, a

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Speaker 1: character makes a choice that the plot needs the character

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Speaker 1: to make. And I'm not saying that Coogler didn't give

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Speaker 1: us the crumbs in the forest to lead us on

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Speaker 1: the trail to make us understand why that character makes

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Speaker 1: that choice. But I, even with those crumbs, didn't fully

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Speaker 1: believe it. It felt a little bit too much like

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Speaker 1: a plot contrivance for me. And then the action itself

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Speaker 1: the only bit of filmmaking I will question it all

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Speaker 1: in this film, and I do want to go back

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Speaker 1: and watch it again and see if maybe there was

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Speaker 1: something about it that I just found distracting. But when

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Speaker 1: the big battle scene occurs in this film, that's the

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Speaker 1: only part where I felt Coogler losing his way a

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Speaker 1: little bit in terms of the intense focus otherwise of

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Speaker 1: this film, And maybe intense focus is the best way

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Speaker 1: I can describe one of the things I loved about it,

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Speaker 1: that burliness that comes just from Michael B. Jordan's dual

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Speaker 1: performance as Smoke and Stack the prologue is really interesting.

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Speaker 1: That moment right after the prologue that brings us to

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Speaker 1: the moment before we go back a day to all

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Speaker 1: of these events. That's certainly provocative as well. But josh

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Speaker 1: I knew this movie was going to be something when

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Speaker 1: he opened that third scene, if you will, on Smoke

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Speaker 1: and Stack, just sitting there by the car with the angle,

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Speaker 1: the kind of low angle on those two, that very

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Speaker 1: natural light outside, the looks on their faces, that intense focus.

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Speaker 1: Characters who seem to have not just a toughness, but

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Speaker 1: a hardness to them that I think the entire movie reflects,

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Speaker 1: but they also are still open to They haven't they

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Speaker 1: haven't been killed inside, They're not dead inside. They're still

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Speaker 1: open to some of the wonders of the world. They

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Speaker 1: certainly still have feelings for each other as brothers, and

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Speaker 1: they have aspirations that and ambitions that you can really respect.

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Speaker 1: You get to the moment where chaos ensues, and it

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Speaker 1: felt like chaos for me in a film that otherwise

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Speaker 1: felt so so controlled, but controlled in the best way.

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Speaker 1: Where when Coogler wants to take the roof off the place,

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Speaker 1: quite literally, the roof comes off and you believe it

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Speaker 1: in that moment. In those moments, in some of those

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Speaker 1: fight scenes, I didn't understand where the characters were. I

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Speaker 1: didn't understand what the characters were doing. I didn't understand

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Speaker 1: completely how the characters were even surviving. And that's the

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Speaker 1: only part for me, John that I am uneasy about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree with that, And you know, it

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Speaker 3: reminds me that the climactic fight scene in Black Panther

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Speaker 3: is you know, a real weak spot for that filmy too,

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Speaker 3: and so you know it's a similar sort of fight

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Speaker 3: choreography and staging. Yeah, there's some of that here too.

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Speaker 3: And then I will also say there is sort of

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Speaker 3: an epilogue before the credits though that I don't want

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Speaker 3: to get into too much, but it evolves an encounter

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Speaker 3: with the Clan, which has been another story throw that's

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Speaker 3: popped up that also seemed strange in and of itself

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Speaker 3: in terms of why it's there, but.

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Speaker 1: Also that'sploitation element.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely gives you some of that black exploitation, you know, cathartic. Yes,

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Speaker 3: that that is that element as well. But yeah, in

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Speaker 3: terms of the staging too, I think it's similar to

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Speaker 3: that chaotic fight sequence you're talking about. But in terms of,

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Speaker 3: you know, Michael B. Jordan, this lead performance, I want

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Speaker 3: to hear a little bit more from you on that

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Speaker 3: because I at once loved it because he's having such

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Speaker 3: a good time and it's so charismatic and who doesn't

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Speaker 3: want to Michael B. Jordan's, but also was left a

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Speaker 3: little wanting, if that makes sense. I really feel like

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Speaker 3: this movie for me needed a more distinctive separation between

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Speaker 3: Smoke and Stack, and the character outlines are there, right.

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Speaker 3: Stack is looser, he's got he's freer, and I love

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Speaker 3: how he's sort of this this tempter with booze and money.

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Speaker 3: Right away he walks around town and he's cajoling everyone.

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Speaker 3: And then Smoke is he's more tightly wound. He's the

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Speaker 3: planner of the two. He's making sure, you know, the

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Speaker 3: bills get paid, however bills they're working with. So I

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Speaker 3: get that those character sketches, but I think in terms

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Speaker 3: of just the feel of the two of them, there

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Speaker 3: is a climactic fight. I think we can say that

385
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Speaker 3: would have for it to matter more beyond just the

386
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Speaker 3: basic logistics, I think we would had to have had

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Speaker 3: a sense of the difference or at least the tension

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Speaker 3: between these brothers earlier for that to really work. It

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Speaker 3: actually made me think of his performance in Kugler's Fruitvale Station.

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Speaker 3: You know, Oscar Grant, I think is the real world

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Speaker 3: figure he's playing there, and how this was a guy

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Speaker 3: he brought. The challenge there was not to make this

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Speaker 3: victim of police violence, you know, a saint or a sinner,

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Speaker 3: to use the language of this movie, but to show

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Speaker 3: that he was fully human. And so Kugler there gave

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Speaker 3: us two sides of one guy who is he can

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Speaker 3: be rough, he could be intimidating, and then a scene

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Speaker 3: later or in the same scene to a different character,

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Speaker 3: he can be understanding and loving. And it was those

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Speaker 3: variations in persona from Fruitvale. I'm surprised wasn't more here

401
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Speaker 3: in Smoke and Stack, not that he isn't a ton

402
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Speaker 3: of fun and they don't serve their purpose for the narrative.

403
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Speaker 3: Part of me also was wondering early on, I didn't

404
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Speaker 3: know exactly what happened narratively. I knew there was some

405
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Speaker 3: sort of horror element. I was wondering, are these two

406
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Speaker 3: more like mythical figures? Like are we going to find

407
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Speaker 3: out there's some sort of avenging angels or something, and

408
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Speaker 3: is that the reason for the Thinness? Because there was

409
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Speaker 3: a Thinness I detected, and then of course we learn

410
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Speaker 3: I think one of them, I think it might be

411
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Speaker 3: smoke even says something about he doesn't believe in anything

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Speaker 3: about the power of money, and so they're very much

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Speaker 3: rooted in the here and now. They are not those

414
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Speaker 3: sort of mythical figures. But I was wondering if it

415
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Speaker 3: was going to go that way just because of Jordan's performance.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, how did it work otherwise for you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose like the film overall, I'm higher on

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Speaker 1: the performances from Michael B. Jordan. I like the fact

419
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Speaker 1: that the shades and the distinctions between them are ultimately

420
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Speaker 1: so subtle, and they're subtle enough that Coogler clearly felt

421
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Speaker 1: compelled to make sure we always understood which one was which,

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Speaker 1: because one's going to be wearing a red hat and

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Speaker 1: one's going to be wearing a blue hat. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: costume being makes it clear.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise we should say doing the costumes here one of

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Speaker 3: the greats.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise we wouldn't really know who is who, which actually

428
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Speaker 1: for me made them feel even more like Brothers and

429
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Speaker 1: made Jordan's performance feel more grounded and less theatrical. And

430
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,479
Speaker 1: maybe that's what I'm so stunned by, is that this

431
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: is a film that, on some level you could call

432
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: very theatrical. It takes bold swings. This is a movie

433
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: where Coogler really goes for it, and yet it's so

434
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: grounded by the Michael B. Jordan performances, but also every

435
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: other performance in this film. You've mentioned a fe you already,

436
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: but how about Hayley Steinfeld showing up on screen and

437
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: getting apart Josh, where we're all all of a sudden

438
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: in a moment. Honestly, the moment she shows up on screen,

439
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: and it might even be before she says a word,

440
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: it's just her physicality. We know, or think we know

441
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: everything we need to about who that character is in

442
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 1: that moment, and there's Steinfeld just reminding us, Oh, in

443
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: case you forgot, I'm not a pop singer. I'm not

444
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: just the star of a Transformers movie or those pitch

445
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 1: perfect sequels. I'm a really formidable actress. And I think

446
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: that's what she proves herself to be here. But again,

447
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: everybody's doing that. It's one of those performances where I

448
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: almost feel bad about saying this, but within two scenes

449
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: you're thinking, so, Delroy Lindo is gonna win Best Supporting Actor, right,

450
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: Like this is a foregone conclusion, right.

451
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: I mean, but can we give him his credit? If

452
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 3: that happens and we have a long ways to go?

453
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 3: Who knows what other performance is here? I thought that

454
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: in his first scene right where it's like, oh, this

455
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 3: is being served on a platter. But also think about

456
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: the subtlety and physicality he brings to that first scene

457
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 3: when he's offered the beer, and how he negotiates his

458
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 3: wanting it but not wanting it, not wanting to show

459
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 3: he wants it. So in a way, it's one of

460
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 3: those showy best supporting performances because it has those moments

461
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 3: of charisma. But I think he's doing incredibly deft work.

462
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: Here's what he's recorded.

463
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 3: To do in this movie, Adam. Delroy Lindo is at

464
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: once required to be the comic relief and the sage,

465
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: like the seer the fount of wisdom and not not

466
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: like not like a holy fool type comic relief wisdom

467
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 3: where they're combined, like these are two different gears. He

468
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: has to shift into, and he shifts into each one

469
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 3: perfectly when needed. It's absolutely the groundedness you're talking about.

470
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: He makes this rooted in a man who has lived

471
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: a hard life and is here now and it's going

472
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 3: to get harder than he ever could have imagined, and

473
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: he handles that with humor and with wisdom. There's there's

474
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: a moment where he's he's talking. They're riding along in

475
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 3: an open you know, a convertible down the road, and

476
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 3: he's telling the story and something about how he's paid

477
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: they were paid in liquor and his friend, his musician friend,

478
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 3: and I forget what happens to the story, but the

479
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: point is he's asked, what did you do with your

480
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: money or something like that, and he just says, I

481
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 3: drank it. And then it isn't that line. He's holding

482
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 3: a flask and he flips the top. I think closed

483
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 3: at that point, and it's that sort of subtle physicality

484
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 3: where it's the exculpation point on the story. It's his shame,

485
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 3: but it's also his desire to still move ahead, like

486
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 3: kind of like saying, I'm put in the flask away now,

487
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 3: like I know you know, but we all know he's

488
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: it's only for this moment, and these are the little

489
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: touches that a performance like this doesn't need to have

490
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: for people to say it's a best supporting actor performance,

491
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 3: But Lindo gives us them anyway.

492
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you're right. Perhaps there is shame

493
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: in that moment. I don't remember the exact dialogue and

494
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: how it plays out either, but I do recall feeling

495
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: in that moment that that is really wonderful scene because

496
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: it's it's great right. We understand that it is informing

497
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: us about the character and their life and the type

498
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: of choices that they've had to make. But you also

499
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: get with Lindo a refusal to embrace any kind of sentimentality.

500
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: He is not going to go for that. He is

501
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: not going to try to make you feel pity for

502
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: him as a character. He says something, there's just some

503
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: line in there, Josh, in the way he says it

504
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: where you understand that's the choice he made, and sometimes

505
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: the choices he makes maybe aren't going to be appreciated

506
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: or understood by everybody, But then you aren't him. You

507
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: haven't walked in his shoes, and he is just going

508
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: to keep on walking and that's the element that Lindo

509
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: brings that makes it not just a showy performance. There

510
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: is so much life that is evident in that character,

511
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: just years of weariness, so that we sense within a

512
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: few minutes is that.

513
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: The scene too just to go back to the so design.

514
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: Where as he's telling the story, we hear voices from

515
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: the story he's telling on the soundtrack and effects that

516
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: would have happened in the story. If it's not that one,

517
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: it's maybe another story that Lindo tells. I think it's

518
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: also in the car though, and the intricacy of this

519
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 3: sound design and the layers of music, but also things

520
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: like that, like enhancing a character's story by audibly bringing

521
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: elements of it into the foreground. You may not even

522
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: notice it at first that it's happening, but afterwards you're like,

523
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: why was that such a vivid I mean, the performance

524
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: was great, the writing is great. Oh it's so vivid

525
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: because I literally heard what he was describing that.

526
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense, that's yeah.

527
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: I don't think we see all that often in films,

528
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: and it's really effective.

529
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: Here, and it makes sense temporarily with this film, a

530
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: movie that is suggesting how the past and the present

531
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: in the future, right, can all collide in a way

532
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: for characters and in certain moments as well. But I

533
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: really feel like we could go on and on. I

534
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: want to at least mention if we're going through the list.

535
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: Miles Cayton, who was a new face to me as Sammy,

536
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: And that's another incredible moment that I was thinking could

537
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: be my music moment of the year, Josh, if it

538
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: wasn't for the scene that eventually follows. It's the first

539
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: time we hear him perform. He's in the car and

540
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: I don't remember, sorry, despite what I said about how

541
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: clearly I could distinguish them, I don't remember for sure

542
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: if it's Smoke or Stack. But he starts playing, and

543
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: the moment he starts singing, and you see the reaction.

544
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: You see Michael B. Jordan's reaction to his performing, and yeah,

545
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: that sounds right is Stack And what he imparts there

546
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: with that stunned reaction is twofold. I think he's first

547
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: just sort of stunned that his cousin is that talented,

548
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: This person he is known his entire life could sing

549
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 1: the blues, that type of depth and that type of

550
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: soul and experience and then the other part, and I

551
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: think he actually verbalizes this is, oh, we're going to

552
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: make a lot of.

553
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 3: Money exactly both. That's how I knew it was stack

554
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: because I remember that part of it. That's the stack quality,

555
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: which you know, speaks to that there are distinctions between

556
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: them that we come to understand.

557
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: Sinners is currently out in wide release. If you see

558
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: it and agree or disagree with our takes, you can

559
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: email us feedback at film spotting dot net.

560
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: Let me make.

561
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 3: Some wadstit going on that with listening is the number

562
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: one thing you can do to support an independently produced

563
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 3: show like film Spotting. A couple more things you could do.

564
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: Take a minute to give us a rating or a

565
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 3: review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Doesn't matter if you're

566
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: a first time listener or have been listening for twenty years.

567
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: Every new review helps us reach new listeners. Another way

568
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: to support us, you could join the Film Spotting Family

569
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: at film Spottingfamily dot com. Thank you to family plus

570
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: member Jeremy Kennis in Severance, Colorado. I've had a chance

571
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 3: to correspond with Jeremy over the years. If you want

572
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: to follow Jeremy on letterbox, he is Jeremy Kennis k

573
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: E N N I.

574
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: S Jeremy Wright. So buddy turned me onto film spotting

575
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: right about the time Josh took over. Been listening ever since.

576
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: Favorite review or segment several, but I'll highlight the episode

577
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: that Adam did his Jimmy Stewart impression when you all massacred,

578
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful life, Josh barely keeping it together was hilarious.

579
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: I forgot about that show and that bit, and it

580
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: does help that I won the prize that week from

581
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: the previous edition. What review, Yeah we got wrong, easy

582
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: under the Skin. I tried to watch it again after

583
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: listening to you rave about it, but I just can't

584
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: get on board even remotely. This, Josh is one of

585
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the I don't mean it pejoratively, but I'll say oddist

586
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: letterbox top four that maybe we've seen in this segment

587
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: rushmore Guns of Navarone, Jojo Rabbit and La fem Nikita.

588
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: I mean that's a four pack. You're going a lot

589
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: of places there.

590
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: Yes, a favorite movie Jeremy revisited recently while he's heading

591
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: to England later this summer. So we watched the trip

592
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: Verry Smart, a random film or filmmaker that he loves

593
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: Formula fifty one, also known as the fifty first State. Now, Josh,

594
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: we took a little bit of grief, playful and supportive grief,

595
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: but a little bit of grief from people who were like,

596
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: you've never heard or you don't know smooth Talk. Come on, Joyce,

597
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: Carol Oates and Criterion Collection. I can't believe you didn't

598
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: know this. Well, I'm gonna say I don't know Formula

599
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: fifty one or the fifty first State.

600
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 3: Well I didn't think I did. But and here's where

601
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to lose Jeremy looking it up now at

602
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: Larson on Film a rare zero star review Adam Oh no.

603
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: Oh, Josh, I was not anticipating that. But here's the

604
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: best part. I mean, I'll just admit that it shouldn't

605
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: be a shock that I have blind spots when it

606
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: comes to Hong Kong. App and this is a film

607
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: directed by Hong Kong action director Ronnie You. It's from

608
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. But here's my favorite part. It's

609
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: it's reading the brief plot synopsis in the cast stars

610
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 1: Samuel L. Jackson as a master chemist turned drug dealer

611
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: with Robert Carlyle, Emily Mortimer as an assassin and meat Loaf.

612
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: I don't believe I'm scanning the review here. I don't

613
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: believe I even mentioned meat Loaf. No, and you know

614
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: I must be wrong. Come on, Emily Mortimer as an

615
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: assassin that gives you half a star?

616
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: Zero stars? Josh? How many zero stars are there? How

617
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: many will I find over at Larson on film dot com.

618
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 3: I mean there's an easy way to filter the review library,

619
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 3: let me tell you.

620
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I thought you might do it. While I

621
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: read his next response to one zero, I okay.

622
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: Be a very unhappy man, Adam.

623
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: Apparently a movie did Jeremy credits with becoming a cinophile?

624
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: Is that one of your zero stars? Sling Blade?

625
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: Now, I'm sure I did not give Sleepway zero.

626
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: Sas finally a book about movies or movie making? Now

627
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: he's just pandering. Movies are prayers? Of course?

628
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: Well it was until my formula fifty one slanders zero stars.

629
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, who's your savior now? Jeremy, thank you for joining

630
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: the family and for all those years of listening. In

631
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, your support

632
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: comes with perks. Get to listen early in ed free.

633
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: You get the weekly newsletter. You get to be part

634
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: of the exclusive film Spotting Family discord. You also exclusively

635
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: get to hear our monthly bonus shows coming up very soon,

636
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: our April bonus. It's ask us anything. If you have

637
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: a question you'd like to submit for that segment. Feedback

638
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: at film spotting dot Net is the email. Our May bonus.

639
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: Then will be our draft, our annual, our new annual tradition,

640
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: the draft with our film Spotting Madness Bracket contest winner,

641
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: maybe with a familiar face this year. More on that

642
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: in a bit. Film Spottingfamily dot Com is where you

643
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: can learn everything you need to know about being a

644
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: family member.

645
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 5: Your parents have offered you to this course, they say,

646
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 5: here makes something of my boys say texts say fo yeah,

647
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 5: curse like I'm wickedness.

648
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: Leochi. That's from the trailer for the Legend of Ochi,

649
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: which is new to theaters this weekend. It's directed by

650
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: Isaiah Saxon. It's his first feature. He's an award winning

651
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: music video director an animator. The movie is set on

652
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: the fictional island of Carpathia, where elusive creatures known as

653
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: the Ochi are hunted and feared by the island's human population.

654
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: A young girl, Helena zengels Yuri, comes across a baby

655
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: Ochi and befriends it. Some of the humans Josh. They're

656
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: played by Willem Dafoe, Emily Watson and Finn Wolfhart a

657
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: twenty four et. That's the vibe I'm getting from the trailer.

658
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: Am I way off base? And if I'm not, is

659
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: that a bad thing?

660
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: I mean, that's yeah, that's certainly what they want, and

661
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 3: maybe it will be for some younger viewers.

662
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 5: I don't know.

663
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: I have a feeling watching this movie, which I wanted

664
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 3: to love and I like quite a bit. There's a

665
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 3: lot to admire about it, but it's it never like

666
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 3: it never took off into the air like those bicycles

667
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 3: in ET. Right, And you know, I'm thinking, but few

668
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: movies doo, and sometimes the ones that lodge themselves in

669
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: your mind when you're a kid are those that you know,

670
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: fumble a little bit on takeoff, but are idiosyncratic enough,

671
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: visionary enough, ambitious enough, weird enough to kind of stick

672
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: in your memory as a kid and you come to

673
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: love them anyway. They're like kiddy cult movies, right. Cult

674
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 3: movies we think of as for adults. They're a little

675
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: risque sometimes are pushing the envelope. But kids can have

676
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 3: cult movies too, these weird little movies that most people

677
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 3: forget as you grow older. But you'll run into someone

678
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: and say, hey, you referenced one earlier in the show.

679
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 3: Wasn't the Goonies great? And it's like, well, you know,

680
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: if you watch it again, the Goonies is fine, Right,

681
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: you watch ET again, it's a masterpiece the Goonies. Yeah,

682
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: it's okay. It's a little weird, a little scruffy. I

683
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: think of these are going to be eighties titles, because

684
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: that's how old I am. But the never Ending Story

685
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: or even something like Labyrinth, right, people love Labyrinth, love

686
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: the never Ending Story. But you know these are not

687
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 3: fantasy or sci fi films like ET. And I do

688
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 3: think the Legend of Ochi might be something like that,

689
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: because it's overstuffed with characters, way too many motivations going on.

690
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 3: I found it to be a little undercooked as a fable,

691
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: like what it actually wants to be about, wants kids

692
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: to think about beyond you know, the obvious. But man,

693
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: is this thing weirdly unique and a lot of that

694
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: has to do with the puppetry, the choice to use

695
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: puppetry and animatronics, and for the adult Ochi, real actors

696
00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: in costumes. There is that tactility, that real worldness that

697
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 3: you need for a children's fantasy movie to root itself

698
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 3: in your consciousness, and this absolutely has that. It also

699
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 3: has a look that's unique. The colors here are deeply saturated.

700
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: It's almost like everything's wet in this movie. It's like

701
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 3: the wetness has made the colors richer in some way,

702
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: which I admired. The score by David Longstreth is very

703
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 3: flute heavy, which casts this unique hypnotic spell. And yeah, overall,

704
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 3: you know, you do feel like you're watching real creatures

705
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: being discovered, not digitized just pixels essentially, and that goes

706
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 3: a long way. I think it will go a long

707
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 3: way for lodging itself in younger audience's minds. So if

708
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: it at all sounds interesting, you check it out. You

709
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: may not love it, but you'll like it, and you'll

710
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 3: probably years from now someone will say did you ever

711
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: see a movie called The Legend of Ochi? And you'll say,

712
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 3: n oh, yes, that was kind of that was really

713
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: great wasn't it. I think it's one of those, so

714
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: we'll see what happens.

715
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: The Legend of Ochi is currently out in limited release.

716
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: If you see it and agree or disagree with the Josh,

717
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: email us feedback at filmspotting dot net. Next week on

718
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: the show, it's Movie Book Talk with Adam Josh and

719
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: guess we've got our friend Mariah E. Gates returning to

720
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: talk about her new book, Cinema or her way visionary

721
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: female directors in their own words. We knew back when

722
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: Mariah first told us about this book that when it

723
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,959
Speaker 1: came out, we wanted to have her on the show,

724
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: and we wanted to do something that wasn't just an

725
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: interview with her. Can we talk about one of the

726
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,479
Speaker 1: films it's featured in the book. And it just worked

727
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: out so serendipitously, Josh, that one of the films she

728
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: covers is a major blind spot for the two of

729
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: us that we have wanted to rectify for quite some time.

730
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 3: Embarrassing.

731
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gina Prince Bithwood's Love and Basketball and this month,

732
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: just as of about a week ago, it celebrated its

733
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: twenty fifth anniversary. So we're going to talk about Love

734
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: and basketball and Mariah's book with her, and then we're

735
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: also going to feature my conversation with film writer by

736
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: Le Luca, whose latest book is David Cronenberg Clinical Trials

737
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: of book that was timed, I think fittingly to be

738
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: released around the release of Kronenberg's latest The Shrouds, a

739
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 1: movie that opens and limited release this weekend. Look forward

740
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: to having both Mariah and Violet on speaking.

741
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 3: Of Cronenberg this week on our sister podcast, The Next

742
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: Picture Show, Looking at Cinema's Present via Its Pass. It

743
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: is part two of their Body by Kronenberg pairing. So

744
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: previously they talked about The Fly from nineteen eighty six,

745
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: that one with Jeff Goldblum and Gina Davis, of course,

746
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 3: and yeah, this week they're discussing The Shrouds. Can't wait

747
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 3: to dig into all that. I'm waiting. I'm waiting untill

748
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 3: I see The Shrouds and then I'm going to listen

749
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 3: to it all together with the Shrouds in my head.

750
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: But I do love that pairing from the Next Picture Show.

751
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: New episodes drop every Tuesday and you can find them

752
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts.

753
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: Some other bit of housekeeping here, Josh, you threw out,

754
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: I think on last week's show that you were going

755
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: to be going to Tokyo. That's this summer or no,

756
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: actually this spring, just next month. That trip is coming up,

757
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: and we've already gotten two responses. You're gonna have at

758
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: least a two person meetup, maybe more if we get

759
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: the word out. So tell us about the Tokyo meetup.

760
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it's happening. I thought there was a chance.

761
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: You never know.

762
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 3: We hear from listeners every once in a while from

763
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 3: fire flung spots around the globe. But yeah, Michael Tom

764
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: have already written in and said we'd love to meet up.

765
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: We're kind of gonna be flexible on the date at

766
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 3: this point because they both can be and we want

767
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 3: to hear from others if anybody else is out there,

768
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: it might be May twenty two or twenty three or

769
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: twenty four, So a couple of options there in Tokyo.

770
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: If you're hearing this and want to join us, feedback

771
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 3: at film spotting dot net.

772
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: We promoted this last week, but want to mention again

773
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: that the Chicago Critics Film Festival is coming up, taking

774
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: place at the Music Box and it starts May second,

775
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: runs May second through the eighth. I highlighted one title, Josh,

776
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: that I have recommended on the show, and if it

777
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: ever gets a full theatrical release, will definitely be a

778
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: Golden Brick nominee for me. That's Zodiac Killer Project, which

779
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: the fest has showing at nine thirty pm on Wednesday,

780
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: so the second to last night of the festival. That's

781
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: one title that I can recommend. We will have a

782
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: few other titles that will highlight next week that we

783
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: are interested in seeing and that you might want to

784
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: seek out as well. Everything you need to know about

785
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: getting tickets for the Chicago Critics Film Festival is available

786
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: at Chicago Criticsfilmfestival dot com. This is lasting, This is madness.

787
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: This is absolute madness.

788
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: This is madness, maddness, madness.

789
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: But this is absolute madness.

790
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: Why should you build such a thing? That is?

791
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 3: I was hot off.

792
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: It's taken us a couple of months. But Josh, we

793
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: have our sixty four film bracket down to two final

794
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 1: four results the Battle of Seven. There will be blood

795
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: versus No Country for Old Men. Not a tight one necessarily,

796
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: but also not a blowout. There will be blood, though,

797
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: is going to advance to the final beat. The Koane

798
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: Brothers fifty five to forty five percent.

799
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 3: I mean, just seems unfair that these two were paired

800
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: up before the Championship round. I guess makes it a

801
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 3: little different than some of our our earlier Madness matchups.

802
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, how does it feel? I got to know,

803
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: how does it feel at this point to have Is

804
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: it a little bit like the day after Chrismus for

805
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 3: you and Sam? Like all of this has gone into it,

806
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 3: I know, and we're here and now no country for

807
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: old men is gone, and that has to make you

808
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:11,919
Speaker 3: feel partly responsible.

809
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: Yes, it definitely does. I voted for no Country for

810
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: old men in this case, in this Madness iteration. I

811
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: may not have a previous one when they faced off,

812
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: but it feels like an appropriate culmination. It actually feels good, Josh,

813
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: that it's all all coming down free to this. Yeah,

814
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. It still feels like Christmas Day.

815
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: And part of that is because our second Final four

816
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 1: matchup pitted Mulholland Drive versus Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

817
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: It was our dream Logic contest and this one was

818
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: super close. At various points over the past week. It

819
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 1: was tied I don't think there was ever a point

820
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: where one film had a lead. There was greater than

821
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: twenty five votes, and it came out this is how

822
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: it ended up, Josh, David Lynch and Mulholland Drive advance

823
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: to have to face Pta Daniel Plainview and his milkshake

824
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: fifty point eight six percent to Eternal Sunshine's forty nine

825
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: point one four.

826
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: That's ridiculous. And is that I have a feeling you

827
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 3: would know this. There's a spreadsheet somewhere keeping track of this.

828
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 3: Is that the closest vote no in Madness history?

829
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: No?

830
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: No, It may be the closest in this Madness Yeah tournament,

831
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: but we've had even tighter than that. We've had ones

832
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: that have come out under five or six votes. This

833
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: one was just slightly more than that. So Josh it is.

834
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: There will be Blood versus Mulholland Drive for film Spotting

835
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: Madness and Best of the Century so far supremacy. We

836
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: do have that third place matchup. Who will take the

837
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: consolation prize? Will it be Michelle Gandry an Eternal Sunshine

838
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: or will it be the Coen Brothers and No Country

839
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: for Old Men? You can vote in the Madness final

840
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: and that third place matchup now at film spotting madness

841
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 1: dot com or filmspotting dot net slash madness. Either place

842
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: will take you there. You could also just go to

843
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,879
Speaker 1: the main page of filmspotting dot Net. You can't miss

844
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: the graphic right there at the top of the page

845
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: that will take you to the polls. They close Tuesday,

846
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: April twenty ninth at five pm Central time, So next week, Josh,

847
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: we will be able to announce a winner. For those

848
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: of you who submitted brackets in the bracket contest, check

849
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 1: out how you're doing. Go to film Spotting Madness, click

850
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: on view bracket, go to predictions see how everything shook

851
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: out for you. Once again, we had eight hundred and

852
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: twenty five people who participated, and out of those eight

853
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five, number one for like four weeks

854
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: in a row is the UK's Ricky Kendall. Ricky Ricky

855
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: picked the correct finals matchup he has there will be

856
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: Blood defeating Mulholland Drive. Number two, Josh is Steve Mesa.

857
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 1: He has the right matchup, but he has Mulholland Drive winning,

858
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: So it will come down to that. Our winner will

859
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: come down to who wins the final, either Ricky or Steve.

860
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: It really can't be anybody else. And I should probably

861
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: save this for next week. If there will be Blood

862
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: does in fact win, and Ricky wins this bracket competition

863
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: for the second year in a row. But this is

864
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: the truth. I look this up. If there will be

865
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: Blood wins. If Ricky does end up on top, not

866
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: only will he have won this competition two years in

867
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: a row, Josh, but he will have correctly predicted sixty

868
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: two out of sixty three matchups in each tournament. He

869
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 1: got one wrong in the sweet sixteen, Otherwise he picked

870
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: every other matchup correctly.

871
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: I still, how I still think Ricky needs to use

872
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 3: his powers for something better for the good of humanity

873
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: than this. Yeah, Ricky, give up madness, find a common

874
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 3: good project and apply all your brain power towards that. Please.

875
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: I am betraying nothing here. I haven't looked at where

876
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: the voting stands as we're taping this. The final polls

877
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: have just been live for only a few hours, and

878
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 1: again I don't want to look at them. I don't

879
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 1: want to give anything away, But I'm just going to

880
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: say there's certainly a chance that Ricky Kendall could win again.

881
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: There Will Be Blood was the number one seed after all,

882
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: and if he does, I suppose, Ricky, you should already

883
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: start thinking about, if you haven't already, what's your bonus

884
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: content RASP topic will be. But then again, maybe you

885
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: don't want to jinx it. You start thinking about things

886
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: that they maybe won't happen.

887
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 3: Who knows how Ricky's mind works, We clearly don't.

888
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: He can. He can obviously manifest whatever he wants exactly. Well,

889
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: Steve Mesa, you are still alive in terms of our

890
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 1: internal competition, josh Am.

891
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 3: I still, well, you're live like a live meaning I

892
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 3: might not end up in last place.

893
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely the case. If we stop right now,

894
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: you're definitely at the bottom. You're one hundred and seventieth overall.

895
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: Your big oversight was having parasite in the final against

896
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: There Will Be Blood. Sam, He's in third place, one

897
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty second overall. He had Eternal Sunshine in

898
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: the final. Mike Marrigan film Spotting Madness Godfather a little

899
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: bit better, one hundred and nineteenth overall, second and our competition,

900
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: like you, he had parasite advancing to the final. That

901
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: means that I am probably temporarily I am in first

902
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: place and I'm twenty ninth overall. That might mean the

903
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: best I've ever been. Again, I think it's going to

904
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: be short lived, though, though I haven't looked, I decided

905
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: to be daring. I went with Mulholland Drive over. There

906
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: will be blood in the final. So, like Steve Mesa,

907
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: I have a chance to win this whole thing. You

908
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: got a shop and Drive wins. But if Mulhallan Drive

909
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: doesn't win, despite the fact that it seems like I'm

910
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: crushing the three of you right now, I will finish last.

911
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,479
Speaker 1: You could go from first to last, first to last,

912
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: print out David Lynch doesn't pull it out. Print out your.

913
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 3: Certificate now with twenty ninth overall, I see a spot

914
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: behind you on the wall, an empty spot. You could

915
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 3: frame it, frame it and you'll always have this moment

916
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: at him.

917
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: Film spotting Madness dot Com or film spotting dot Net

918
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 1: slash Madness is where you should go for everything film

919
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: Spotting Madness related.

920
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 3: Prussia, Tiber.

921
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 4: Skoshna, Budo, New Bodle, the Way, Sadium.

922
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 3: Yetibira, Schedule, Tame It's nice yep.

923
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: That was from Andre Tarkovski's Andre Rubelov from nineteen sixty six.

924
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: It is actually the third film, the second entry, but

925
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: the third film and our Tarkovsky Blind Spots marathon, we

926
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: are watching five films total over four weeks, after which

927
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: we can claim to be Tarkovski Complete us and counted

928
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: among the world's experts on the Russian Master. Yes, I'm

929
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: also I'm going to punt out that certificate as please.

930
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: I think that's the case, Josh.

931
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,479
Speaker 3: Because these are movies you just need to watch once

932
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: and you've got it.

933
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, or you know twice, that's it, you

934
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: got it well.

935
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 3: Andre Rublov came in at number sixty seven on the

936
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two edition of the Citan Sound Top one hundred.

937
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 3: It is one of three Tarkovski films to make that list.

938
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 3: Stalker from nineteen seventy nine is next in our marathon

939
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 3: also made the list, as did nineteen seventy five's Mirror,

940
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 3: which was part of our Citan Sound Top one hundred

941
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 3: Blind Spots Marathon a couple of years ago. The subject

942
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 3: of Tarkovski's film Here Rubylov is a historical figure, a

943
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 3: painter of religious icons during the fifteenth century. Tarkovski and

944
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 3: co screenwriter Andre Konchalovsky invented much of rube Lev's story,

945
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 3: of whom little is known. The movie is told in

946
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 3: eight extended chapters, plus there's a prologue and then an epilogue,

947
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 3: and it depicts the artist navigating a medieval Russia defined

948
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 3: by violence and cruelty. Writing about Andre Rubelev last year

949
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: in the Reveal as part of their series dedicated to

950
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 3: the Citan Sound Top one hundred, Keith Phipps wrote that

951
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: scene it for the first time. He was feeling a

952
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 3: bit at sea until a scene that helped clarify what

953
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 3: Tarkovski might be after that. The film was about quote

954
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 3: ruby Lev's artistic development and the development of his soul. So, Adam,

955
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 3: we're coming off, I would say a relatively straightforward start

956
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 3: to this marathon. That's nineteen sixty one's World War two set,

957
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 3: Ivan's childhood. You have seen Andre rube Lev before. This

958
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 3: was a blind spot for me, So tell me a

959
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 3: little bit about I know it was a while ago,

960
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: but what you're mes memories of that first viewing, how

961
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 3: they informed this one, and what you make of it

962
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: and its episodic structure today.

963
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 1: Well, even though I was able Josh to find some

964
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: of my notes from two thousand and five, I have

965
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: to admit that I remember very little about the film specifically,

966
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: and I think that's because it was twenty years ago.

967
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: I also think it's because I was ill equipped twenty

968
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: years ago to really sink my teeth into Tarkovski and

969
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: try to make sense of Andrei Rublev. But that's what

970
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: we were doing. We were trying to expand our horizons.

971
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: That's why we did that marathon so early. It's part

972
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: of why Sam and I also started this show to

973
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: give ourselves missions. Just like that, I was more engaged

974
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: and I liked the film that time, but having a

975
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: little bit more perspective twenty years later, not just on cinema,

976
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 1: but on the work of Tarkovsky, having been able to

977
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: watch and discuss and really appreciate some of his other

978
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: films like Mirror. As you said most recently, I think

979
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: what I was able to put away, Josh was that

980
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: compulsion in I think all of us as humans, not

981
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: just as movie watchers when it comes to art, which

982
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: is to try to make sense of what we're seeing,

983
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: to try to find a certain logic to try to

984
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: understand motivations and see a causality.

985
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 3: And what you.

986
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,240
Speaker 1: Realize very early on, or what you need to realize

987
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: very early on with Andrey Rublev is that that type

988
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:33,399
Speaker 1: of temporal logic, that narrative logic, is something that Tarkovsky

989
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: just really is not interested in at all. And the

990
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: movie can be confounding because he'll have characters who we

991
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: met briefly in the first chapter show up all of

992
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: a sudden in chapter eight, and we have to remember

993
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: exactly who that character is, and even sometimes within chapters

994
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: there's leaps in time or you find yourself. For example,

995
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: after chapter one or two where Andrea gets called to

996
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: go off to paint and learn from Theophanes and he

997
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: brings Foma I believe his name is with him. You

998
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: assume when you get to that next chapter that they're

999
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: walking amidst the trees they must be going to work

1000
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: with Theophanes, and then all of a sudden, Theophanes is

1001
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: there with them. Then he kind of appears almost like

1002
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: a ghost, Josh, it's not immediately clear that he was

1003
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: part of their traveling party. And those are the types

1004
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: of lapses in logic that you have to expect with Tarkovski.

1005
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: For me, what I was able to give myself over

1006
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: to was that episodic structure once I realize that you

1007
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: have to see them less as stepping stones to understanding

1008
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: anything factual or actual about Andre Rublev the painter an artist,

1009
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: and see them as parables. And that's how I ultimately

1010
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: embraced those chapter is now, I think in the end,

1011
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: even though we can't necessarily say that any of it

1012
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: is accurate, or that accuracy is what he's going for,

1013
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: we know very little about Andre Rublev the man, we

1014
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: have his work. It really is and I think Scott

1015
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: and Keith talk about this in their really eloquent conversation

1016
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: about the film that we referenced earlier in the reveal.

1017
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: It's as if Tarkovsky said, I'm going to take this

1018
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 1: figure and I'm going to use him to explore questions

1019
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: about sin, about the responsibility of the artist, about Russia

1020
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: itself and its history, about the brutality of man, all

1021
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: these big questions. He's going to use this story simply

1022
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: to be the provocation or the lure to explore some

1023
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: of those big questions, the type big questions we've seen

1024
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: Tarkovsky explore with his other films. So I don't know

1025
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: if that Parables analogy that I'm making resonates with you

1026
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: at all, Josh, But they are stories sometimes that don't

1027
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: even have anything to do directly with rube Lev himself.

1028
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: It seems to be more about not only asking some

1029
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: of these big questions or posing some of these big questions,

1030
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: but more about providing a backdrop, a potential backdrop to

1031
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: understand the types of experiences and the environment that might

1032
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: have shaped an artist.

1033
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 3: Like Yeah, I love the Parables analogy. I hadn't thought

1034
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 3: about it that way, but I think it's very apt,

1035
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 3: you know, and like the Parables of the New Testament,

1036
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 3: they're individual stories, fables, but they're also all of a

1037
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 3: piece for a single purpose, you know, in that case,

1038
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 3: painting this picture of a unique kingdom. And I think

1039
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 3: Andre Rubla with this film, Tarkovski is trying to ultimately

1040
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 3: paint a unified picture of what it means to make

1041
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 3: religious art. I think that, I mean, first of all,

1042
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 3: just generally speaking to me seeing this for the first time,

1043
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 3: and it's sort of the first time I went to

1044
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 3: see it. I've mentioned before at DUC Films at University

1045
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 3: of Chicago in January because they were screening it and

1046
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 3: just knowing we had this marathon. So I have had

1047
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 3: the chance to see it twice in a couple of months,

1048
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 3: but still in these recent months, it was the first

1049
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 3: time I thought I'd seen all the Tarkovsky masterpieces at him.

1050
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 3: I was like, I've you know, I've seen Nostalgia, I've

1051
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 3: seen Solaristock. It's like, let me go catch up on

1052
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 3: this well regarded. I certainly knew the movie's reputation, but

1053
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 3: knowing it was something of this biography picture historical picture,

1054
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 3: sounded different than the films I was familiar with earlier

1055
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 3: movie right his second full feature, I thought, let me

1056
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 3: catch up with this one. Okay, apparently the guy's up

1057
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 3: to what five masterpieces. In my mind, this thing is incredible.

1058
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, going back to what you were saying and

1059
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 3: what Keith wrote specifically, you know this notion I think

1060
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 3: he's I think he's very close when he says this

1061
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 3: was about Rubelev's artistic development and the development of his soul,

1062
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 3: except I wouldn't have the ant I would put those

1063
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 3: two things together, because I think they're exactly the same

1064
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 3: thing in terms of what Tarkovsky is interested in exploring

1065
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 3: in this movie and thinking about it in context of

1066
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 3: the further films that he would go on to make.

1067
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 3: It's almost like he's setting the stage here for the

1068
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 3: rest of his career because he's stating these he's discovering.

1069
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 3: Let me say, it feels like he's discovering the terms

1070
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 3: by which he's going to go on to make deeply

1071
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 3: spiritual cinematic films like Solaris, Stalker, Nostalgia. But they're not

1072
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 3: religious films right in the sense that we think of them.

1073
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 3: And so Andre Rubelev is all about an artist whose

1074
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 3: job is to make religious films, and what are we

1075
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 3: told about him? Very early on, one of his fellow

1076
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 3: painters says to Theophanes, he has no faith in his art, right,

1077
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 3: This guy's going through the motions and he doesn't find

1078
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 3: that faith and that artistry until he's recognized that it

1079
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 3: must have a purpose beyond the religious realm. It must

1080
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 3: resonate outside of these cathedrals for it to have true artistry,

1081
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 3: true meaning, true religiosity, I would argue, and I do

1082
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 3: think you know. There's that early section which is comedic

1083
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 3: but sets the stage for all of this, when he

1084
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 3: and his fellow painters stop at this tavern. They're seeking

1085
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 3: shelter from the right. And before they even arrive, we've

1086
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 3: been watching this performer, this jester roll on bikeoff is

1087
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 3: the actor entertaining villagers with this crude and very lude

1088
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 3: song and dance. Right, and then Andre and his fellow

1089
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 3: monks come in and they crash the party. Everyone gets quiet.

1090
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 3: They look at the gester askance. One of his companions says,

1091
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: God sent priests, but the devil sent gestures. You know again,

1092
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 3: we're back to sinners, drawing this line between the sacred

1093
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 3: and secular right. But notice in that sequence, Adam, the

1094
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 3: jester connects with the crowd. The monks sit in the corner.

1095
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 3: They're useless.

1096
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: The clown judge and judge of course, the clown.

1097
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: Goes out into the world. He leaves the tavern, he

1098
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 3: takes off his shirt and soaks in the rain. He's

1099
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 3: experiencing life. And I think this is setting the central questions.

1100
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 3: The rest of the movie will explore what good is

1101
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 3: religious art, if it's lifeless, if it's disconnected from the

1102
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 3: human experience. It's when we get to these sections of

1103
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: cruelty and violence all at the hands of supposedly religious leaders,

1104
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 3: these princes of Russia, who demand these icons but also

1105
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 3: are merciless. What happens when religious art is co opted

1106
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 3: by the cruel and the powerful. And then here's the

1107
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 3: Tarkovsky question. Can art that isn't explicitly religious be faithful

1108
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 3: as well? This is what I think we see in

1109
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 3: his further films, And here it's almost like he's making

1110
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 3: the argument for that. So I really do think this is,

1111
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 3: you know, as powerful as his later movies, if still

1112
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 3: sort of in this formative space for him as a filmmaker.

1113
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: It's funny what you said about the Jester and the

1114
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: importance you placed on that, because I was looking at

1115
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:48,959
Speaker 1: my notes and one of the last things I wrote

1116
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 1: down watching at this time was that this movie seems

1117
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: to be fundamentally about fools. Oh yeah, the characters, Holy fools. Yeah.

1118
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: That Tarkovsky is drawn to the most, that he is

1119
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: most sympathetic to the characters who he thinks society needs

1120
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: to not only have perhaps more compassion for, but needs

1121
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: to allow more space for. Are these fools? And that

1122
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: doesn't just mean because they're comedic foolish in this case,

1123
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: also means that they are distancing themselves or in some

1124
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: way separating themselves from conventional society. I think that's why

1125
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: we have the prologue, that we have this story that

1126
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: otherwise so disconnected, but isn't, and it is in terms

1127
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: of filmmaking Bravora Tarkovsky, where that camera is elevating up

1128
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: into the sky from the point of view of this

1129
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: fool who has decided, despite the shouts that he is

1130
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: getting from the people down below, despite the absolute absurdity

1131
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: of this decision, to try to fly. He pulls it off,

1132
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: doesn't he? And it does, as I said, feel disconnected

1133
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: because narratively it doesn't tie otherwise to our story. But

1134
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: it makes complete sense when you realize that the movie

1135
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 1: is filled with these types of characters, including rube Blev himself,

1136
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: who is constantly going against society, constantly putting himself in

1137
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: a position where he is daring to do something that

1138
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: subverts norms or subverts expectations, including taking a vow of

1139
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: silence as we see him later do. I think part

1140
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: of the complexity here of this film too, and the

1141
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:37,439
Speaker 1: way Tarkowsky really gets at the human condition through rube

1142
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: Lev is having a character who can so clearly in

1143
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: one moment espouse this epiphany that he's had about his art,

1144
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,919
Speaker 1: and it's in the chapter about the Last Judgment where

1145
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: he seems to have a sort of painter's block. He's

1146
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: doing everything he can to distract himself from the job

1147
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: at hand, and he expresses it it's because he doesn't

1148
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: feel like spreading that message of hell fire and punishment

1149
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 1: and suffering that doesn't seem to resonate with him. And

1150
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: then he finally realizes that he wants to tell the

1151
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: story of a feast instead so he can have he

1152
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 1: can have that type of epiphany, Josh, he can understand

1153
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: that he's a man who doesn't believe in, or doesn't

1154
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: want to espouse these ideas of hell fire and judgment

1155
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: and condemnation of his fellow man. But what does happen

1156
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: in that chapter with the Pagans I believe it's called

1157
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: the Feast? Where as soon as they catch him spying

1158
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: on lovers and they are going to punish him, what

1159
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: does he do. He invokes fire and brimstone, he tells him,

1160
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: But that's going to be punished. I think it is.

1161
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: Actually it's part of his journey. You could say that's

1162
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: part of his journey, and I think that that would

1163
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: be fair. You could also look at it as a

1164
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 1: bit of a contradiction, because he invokes it when it

1165
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: suits him and then later it doesn't completely feel right.

1166
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: But he hasn't he hasn't yet had that moment where

1167
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: he's realized what the counter is what he believes in instead,

1168
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: I suppose, so I guess that's why I'm kind of

1169
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: linking them. But you're right ultimately that I think that

1170
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: is part of that journey, that he's not this fully

1171
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 1: formed character. And not only that, of course, any artist

1172
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: is always developing. We're always developing as humans. But I

1173
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 1: think what I'm trying to express, Josh is that this

1174
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: is a character who is constantly shifting, who because of

1175
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: the conditions of the world that he lives in, because

1176
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,560
Speaker 1: of the horrors that he witnesses, because of the ideas

1177
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: that he is constantly confronted with, He's malleable. He's trying

1178
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: to find what he really believes in. He's trying to

1179
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: commit to an ideology. And I like the fact that

1180
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: we see someone for a good portion of the film

1181
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: who is seeking, who is searching.

1182
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's the fascinating part of this and he is.

1183
01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think if we've even mentioned the

1184
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 3: actor portraying Rublove here and atotally Solnitsen, and I will

1185
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 3: say on this recent second viewing, I did appreciate his

1186
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 3: performance more because of that seeking quality and that he's

1187
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 3: kind of like a Brisson, you know, figure of struggling faith.

1188
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 3: He's what Ethan Hawk is doing in First Reformed. They're

1189
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,759
Speaker 3: very much cinematic archetypes. But it is this this striving,

1190
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 3: the seeking, this uncertainty, this lack of faith, this doubt

1191
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 3: that is torturing figures like this, and I think we

1192
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 3: very much get that in this performance, which is quite strong.

1193
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 3: Also quickly before I go back to that is we've

1194
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 3: referenced a couple of times all these horror horrors he witnesses.

1195
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 3: We should say for people listening who haven't seen Andre Rublev,

1196
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 3: one of these chapters is like basically a Kurrosawa film, right.

1197
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: This Siege on on seven Samurai, It's all there.

1198
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like, okay, let's just take forty five

1199
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 3: minutes to drop in a yeah, Samurai masterpiece, but set

1200
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 3: in medieval Russia. This is the level of artistry working

1201
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 3: on here with Andrea Rubelev. But yeah, I like, also

1202
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 3: continuing your thought about ruby Lev's journey here is that

1203
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: he has those qualms about painting the last judgment strong language.

1204
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 3: He starts by saying something about it's not the smoke

1205
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 3: that matters, you know, to his companion who's trying to

1206
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 3: figure out, why are you bothered by this? He says,

1207
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 3: then it disgusts me, like this concept of damnation and

1208
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 3: hell fire discuss me. And then later we notice there's

1209
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 3: another holy fool woman played by Irma Rausch, who wanders

1210
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 3: into this cathedral that they're painting as a character is

1211
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 3: reading a New Testament passage about how women should cover

1212
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 3: their heads in worship. And this is obviously an ironic contrast.

1213
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 3: Here comes this woman into their manly space as they're

1214
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 3: reading this aloud. But it's also where ruby Lev says

1215
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 3: something like she is not a sinner even if she

1216
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 3: does not wear a scarf. And so we're seeing his

1217
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 3: spiritual development here where he's transitioning away from the hell

1218
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 3: fire and damnation to a gospel of grace that he's

1219
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 3: beginning to embrace. And now the tension, the artistic tension,

1220
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 3: is like, but is this what the people paying me

1221
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 3: to paint want and how do I wrestle with that?

1222
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 3: And how do I be true to my art and

1223
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 3: my beliefs. So yeah, it is this this journey of

1224
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 3: discovery on his part, which who knows how historical it is,

1225
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 3: but in terms of rooting it in this narrative and

1226
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 3: how it works on a meta level to my mind,

1227
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:36,480
Speaker 3: with Tarkowsky's development as an artist, I think is fascinating.

1228
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot that's fascinating about this film and a

1229
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: lot that maybe I think we used this word last

1230
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: week when we were talking about the first two films

1231
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 1: in this marathon. A lot that's meant to be mysterious

1232
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: and not perhaps understood, and yet you're drawn to try

1233
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 1: to make sense of it. And that even includes josh

1234
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: lines of dialogue like the one in this film where Ki,

1235
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 1: the character who's a painter who is kind of an adversary,

1236
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: seems to be a friend but becomes kind of an adversary,

1237
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: feels a lot of jealousy towards Andrea because of his talent,

1238
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: he wants to be seen as a superior painter. He

1239
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 1: has greater ambition, but lacks that fundamental ability that his

1240
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: colleague seems to have when he is just about to

1241
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 1: have his great unraveling and he's in his room at

1242
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 1: the monastery, and I don't remember who is in the

1243
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 1: room and who says it to him, but the person says,

1244
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,200
Speaker 1: why are you burning a candle in the daylight. I'm

1245
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:43,560
Speaker 1: still thinking about why are you burning a candle in

1246
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 1: the daylight? Why that's even something that that character posed

1247
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: to him, and how we might interpret it. But what

1248
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 1: it says about Kirol as a man, as a monk,

1249
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 1: as a painter, that he could be I don't know,

1250
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: suppose wasteful in that way, that he could feel as if,

1251
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: even though it's daytime and he should be able to

1252
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 1: see everything he needs to say, he nevertheless feels the

1253
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: need to take in this bit of luxury, this bit

1254
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 1: of medieval luxury, if you will, or adorn his room

1255
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 1: in some way with that light. In a character it

1256
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:23,320
Speaker 1: seems kind of calls him out on it.

1257
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, Kirol is fascinating played by Ivan Lapikov, because I

1258
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 3: think he's also, if I'm remembering correctly, one of these

1259
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 3: figures you were referring to, who disappears for long passages, Yeah,

1260
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,320
Speaker 3: and then comes back in a way we don't immediately

1261
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:41,839
Speaker 3: know right it's him, and then he has to confess.

1262
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 3: He has two confessions, first who he actually is, and

1263
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 3: then later in the bell section, he confesses when Andrea

1264
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 3: is mistaken by the jester from the early section for

1265
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 3: the monk who denounced him and led to his punishment.

1266
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 3: And it was actually so yeah, can we talk about

1267
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 3: the bell section?

1268
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1269
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 3: I mean masterpiece on its own right like this? To me,

1270
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 3: this movie just has that, and you've got something that

1271
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 3: will stand the test of time. Now, obviously it builds

1272
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 3: on what came before, because I find it to be

1273
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 3: completely culminating, this exploration of what doesn't mean to be

1274
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 3: an artist, let alone a religious artist.

1275
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 1: But really, what does it mean to be an artist

1276
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: like this?

1277
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 3: This is what the movie, or this section, the bell section,

1278
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 3: offers a possibility, I will say, because I think with

1279
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 3: Tarkovsky everything is a possibility, not necessarily an answer. But

1280
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 3: this is where we find the boy from Ivan's childhood.

1281
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 3: I have his childhood, right, Nikolai Berlyyev, who gave such

1282
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 3: a brilliant performance there as a kid a couple of

1283
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 3: years younger, and is here's this orphan teenager who convinces

1284
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 3: the prince that he has learned to cast church bells

1285
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 3: from his late father, is given the job, which means

1286
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 3: overseeing this massive team of adults, and we learn later

1287
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 3: though suspect right away he has no idea what he's doing.

1288
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,639
Speaker 3: His father didn't teach him anything, but he proceeds anyway,

1289
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 3: and everyone follows him. What did you make of this past?

1290
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 1: Well, that's partly why, or a major part of why

1291
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: I am talking about this film in terms of its

1292
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 1: emphasis on holy fools or certain fool kids a school too.

1293
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 1: I think I think the kid is I think that's

1294
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: what really clinched it for me, is that he's another

1295
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 1: character Josh who you said. It turns out he doesn't

1296
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 1: know what he's doing. He doesn't know what he's doing,

1297
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you can really say that

1298
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 1: he's going just off of faith. There's something what's motivating.

1299
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a great question, either deeper or more superficial,

1300
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:56,479
Speaker 1: that's driving him. Maybe he just appreciates the power. But

1301
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: for whatever reason he takes in my mind, he takes

1302
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: the same leap off the church that the guy at

1303
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: the beginning does. Right when he flies with the balloon,

1304
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 1: he is putting himself in danger. There is no reason

1305
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: on this earth, in this world that he should pull

1306
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 1: this off. He's completely flying without an it and the

1307
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 1: punishment for failure here is severe. As we like to

1308
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 1: say here on film spotting, the stakes could not be higher.

1309
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: That is constantly reinforced throughout this entire section. What exactly

1310
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: could go wrong and the type of punishment that will

1311
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 1: befall him if he doesn't pull this off. And yet, Josh,

1312
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 1: he is a fool. He doesn't know exactly what he's doing.

1313
01:16:42,320 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 1: He is just hoping that through the force of his

1314
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 1: own will, that he is going to pull it off.

1315
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,600
Speaker 1: That's the test. That's another example for me why it

1316
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 1: feels a bit like a parable. It isn't supposed to

1317
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:59,599
Speaker 1: necessarily make sense that we believe that this character could

1318
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:01,800
Speaker 1: do it. We believe it though in the context of

1319
01:17:02,479 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 1: this story. So yeah, that's that's where that that really

1320
01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:07,799
Speaker 1: came from for me, That idea was that character.

1321
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 3: And just to talk a little bit about the filmmaking

1322
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 3: before circling back to the to the meaning, but the

1323
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 3: patience and the attention to the steps of this craft,

1324
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 3: from finding the right clay which he stumbles upon in

1325
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 3: the rain and incredible. I so much rain in this movie.

1326
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,840
Speaker 3: I mean water is Skarkowsky right, but he's he's baptized

1327
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 3: when he finds the right clay that shot, and from

1328
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 3: having to mold the bell in the earth to raising

1329
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,680
Speaker 3: it up to yeah, the molding of it with how

1330
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 3: about the streams of like burning, I don't know what

1331
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 3: material is lead or silver, but it's glowing. This is

1332
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:51,560
Speaker 3: a black and white film, but it's glowing behind this

1333
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 3: kid conjuring this fool slash wizard conjuring these streams of

1334
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,559
Speaker 3: light to I mean, the filmmaking here is just incredible.

1335
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 3: But yeah, to connect it with some of these other

1336
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 3: things we've been talking about. So Andre Rublev at this

1337
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:12,599
Speaker 3: point is still in his vow of silence, living near

1338
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 3: this city, the Prince's city, where the bell is being cast,

1339
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 3: and observing it from afar, and so he's watching this kid,

1340
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:25,360
Speaker 3: and I would say, similar to the way you've been

1341
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 3: describing it, that rube Lev experiences the creation of this

1342
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 3: bell as a miraculous revelation. I mean, he's been on

1343
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 3: this journey of seeking inspiration. He's found it here a

1344
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 3: little bit. But then the sack of the city and

1345
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 3: the violence that he experienced and witnessed caused him to

1346
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 3: give everything up take on the vow of silence. He's

1347
01:18:47,320 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 3: left his work behind. But here I think what he

1348
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 3: discovers and the holy fool part is an element of

1349
01:18:53,240 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 3: this that art emerges from talent, but also from beyond himself. Right,

1350
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 3: he's a vessel. Ruby Lev discovers that he's a vessel,

1351
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,919
Speaker 3: just like this kid is a vessel for the miracle,

1352
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 3: and I love I almost want to give it away

1353
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 3: because you are right, You're in such suspense. Is that

1354
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 3: bell going to toll? Are we going to hear anything?

1355
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm almost positive I meant to rewatch it today, but

1356
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 3: I think when we hear the bell, the camera is

1357
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 3: on Rublev's face, and he is He has been a

1358
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 3: very side figure in this whole passage.

1359
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:34,320
Speaker 1: We see him watching.

1360
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 3: He's an observer in the background. But the moment the

1361
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 3: movie has been building too in my mind, we're back

1362
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 3: on his face and it just it kind of seems

1363
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,759
Speaker 3: like that is the clarity where he realizes it's about

1364
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 3: more than me. I may have been gifted talent, but

1365
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 3: I need to release a little bit of this control

1366
01:19:56,280 --> 01:20:00,160
Speaker 3: because I am, as an artist, a vessel, and I

1367
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 3: do think it connects out with another brilliant visual motif

1368
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,720
Speaker 3: throughout this film, and it's something our Tarkowsky returns to

1369
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 3: in different ways. Water again is here, but we see

1370
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 3: many times a paint brush with white paint being held

1371
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 3: in a stream.

1372
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: I was I was going to go there, Josh, my

1373
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,280
Speaker 1: favorite image in the film. Maybe it's gorgeous.

1374
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,480
Speaker 3: And what happens is the paint just kind of diffuses

1375
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 3: but travels as the water travels. Yeah, and it's this

1376
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 3: abstract beauty. Here's the key that the person putting the

1377
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 3: brush in the water never intended. It's a new a

1378
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 3: new creation beyond that. That's that's in the process of

1379
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 3: unfolding before your eyes and what and who knows what

1380
01:20:42,920 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 3: it means. They were a part of it. They needed

1381
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 3: to be there for it to happen, right, it's not accidental.

1382
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:52,519
Speaker 3: But they were also something of a vessel. And so

1383
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 3: I think that's the you know, that's the what rube

1384
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 3: Lev to my mind, discovers by the end of this movie,

1385
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 3: and pointedly in the historical context he goes on to

1386
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,600
Speaker 3: make after this period in his life, according to what

1387
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,960
Speaker 3: history we know, his greatest piece the Trinity, his greatest icon,

1388
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 3: the one that's the most revered. So it's just interesting

1389
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,360
Speaker 3: to see how historically this could be understood as an

1390
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 3: epiphany moment for him. But I think it might be

1391
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 3: the same for Tarkovsky.

1392
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 1: Man.

1393
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:28,879
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's like him understanding you've referenced

1394
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 3: this idea of mystery, like these movies I'm making, I'm

1395
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 3: maybe a vessel for them, like I don't, and this

1396
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 3: is why they're so confounding and we're intimidated by them

1397
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 3: and why we'll never find the answer to them, because

1398
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 3: I don't know if Tarkovsky knows the answer to.

1399
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,720
Speaker 1: All of them. Sure, it's as if he has to.

1400
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,920
Speaker 1: With this film, he's reminding himself or he's proving to

1401
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 1: himself the lesson the rube Lev learns. I think as

1402
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 1: you're articulating that, yeah, yeah, there, there are all these

1403
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:02,560
Speaker 1: reasons to feel like this is probably pointless, or that

1404
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: this beauty or this attempted beauty is not appreciated by society.

1405
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:09,920
Speaker 1: Is it something society even needs? I think it goes

1406
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 1: back to the steamroll or in the Violin too, in

1407
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 1: that way that's opposing that question and ultimately coming to

1408
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: a realization that you kind of have no choice. It's

1409
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 1: the only thing ultimately you can do, or certainly you

1410
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:24,599
Speaker 1: can do if you're someone like Rublev or you're someone

1411
01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 1: like Tarkovsky, who is a unique visionary artist, and that

1412
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,200
Speaker 1: is definitely on display here. I'm so glad that you

1413
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 1: mentioned the brushes, because that moment where I think it's

1414
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 1: Foma who I didn't know totally what to make of it,

1415
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 1: And now it's starting to as we talk it out,

1416
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:42,720
Speaker 1: it's starting to be clear to me. I just liked

1417
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 1: it as an image, and I liked it as a

1418
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 1: singular Tarkovsky image because we've already talked through this marathon

1419
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 1: and with mir we've talked about water and how he

1420
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 1: uses it in so many different ways. But the idea,

1421
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 1: it's almost like, by putting that brush in the water,

1422
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 1: it creates something new, as I said, something that's forming.

1423
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 1: It's in the process of forming itself before your eye.

1424
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 1: Something is disturbed, something is disturbed. The water that's flowing

1425
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 1: is disturbed by the introduction of a new liquid by

1426
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:15,719
Speaker 1: someone's hand, a new thing, and then and that creates

1427
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: something new, and it actually creates an effect. Josh, It's

1428
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 1: like the only thing I could write down. I don't

1429
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: even know if I'm using this word correctly, but it's

1430
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: like tributaries. It's like within the water, new strips are formed, right,

1431
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 1: new streams are formed, which makes sense with some of

1432
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 1: the imagery we've seen from Tarkovski already. But there's another

1433
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: moment of that in this film, Josh, and my notes

1434
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,720
Speaker 1: aren't entirely clear. I have post attack, so it must

1435
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 1: be after the raid, something like some kind of milk

1436
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,600
Speaker 1: or liquid gets spilled into the water and the exact

1437
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: same tributary, like yeah, thing forms with that introduction of

1438
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: that liquid in the water, and then I love it's

1439
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 1: almost a match cut Tarkovsky gives us from that that

1440
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 1: spilling of that liquid in the water to then paint

1441
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 1: being thrown at the yes wall. There is yes, right,

1442
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:10,680
Speaker 1: So that's that's a great kind of visual play on

1443
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:16,120
Speaker 1: a motif that the Tarkovsky obviously is enamored with. We

1444
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:19,439
Speaker 1: also get here and I didn't know coming into this marathon.

1445
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:21,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know this was a thing. I didn't know

1446
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:24,640
Speaker 1: a thing for Tarkovsky. I didn't know that until I

1447
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:28,799
Speaker 1: saw that incredible scene amongst the birch trees in Ivan's

1448
01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:32,880
Speaker 1: childhood that this would be a recurring motif, even with

1449
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 1: the films I've seen, not considering them back to back,

1450
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:38,759
Speaker 1: like this, what happens Josh In one of the early

1451
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: sequences in this film, they are walking amongst those same

1452
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: types of birch trees, those white trees. They even comment

1453
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 1: on them. I think you never notice until you leave.

1454
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 1: And and there's even a moment, Josh, with those trees

1455
01:24:55,280 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 1: where the characters in the scene are walking across the

1456
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 1: trees kind of like they're on a tightrope, which is

1457
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 1: exactly how they're walking across them in Ivan's childhood. So

1458
01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:07,680
Speaker 1: that was something that stood out to me. The symbolism

1459
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,240
Speaker 1: of those trees, the power of those trees for Tarkovski

1460
01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: obviously very intentional, but again the use of water here,

1461
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:19,559
Speaker 1: and the use of water and layered varying ways by

1462
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:23,560
Speaker 1: introducing new bits of liquid into the mix, was a

1463
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 1: real standout for me as well. I feel like, Josh,

1464
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 1: this is the movie in a lot of ways, that's

1465
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:32,760
Speaker 1: the answer to the biopic conundrum. And the secret is

1466
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:37,519
Speaker 1: not only just have someone as visionary as Tarkovsky creating

1467
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 1: the image of help, but just don't be encumbered in

1468
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:46,320
Speaker 1: any way by fast events signposts. Yea, the things they

1469
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,599
Speaker 1: actually did. Like he's a painter, we don't ever see

1470
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 1: him paint. We don't see any of the painting. We'll

1471
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: give you some art at the end, otherwise, otherwise we're

1472
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: going to give you a story that seems very loosely

1473
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: based on who this man ultimately is.

1474
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, what did you make of that? Speaking of the

1475
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 3: end where this has all been in black and white,

1476
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 3: and then we get this long section of close ups

1477
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:19,760
Speaker 3: of some of the icons painted by rublev as this,

1478
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 3: you know, choral music from the period is playing on

1479
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 3: the soundtrack, and it gives you a chance obviously, you know,

1480
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:28,679
Speaker 3: there's an obvious reason and what it means. It gives

1481
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 3: you a chance to see the art, the actual art

1482
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:33,840
Speaker 3: to your point, out of context of him sitting at up,

1483
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:35,720
Speaker 3: you know, sitting down to actually do it.

1484
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 1: So I appreciated that.

1485
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's you see this in other Tarkovski movies,

1486
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 3: like I think it's The Hunters in the Snow, the

1487
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 3: Brugal the Elder painting shows up in Solaris, and we

1488
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:49,479
Speaker 3: spend a lot of time of the camera just pouring

1489
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,639
Speaker 3: over it in detail. So it's a thing he likes

1490
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,920
Speaker 3: to do. Did you find that additive?

1491
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 1: Did you you know? Yeah, Yeah, that's another one of

1492
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 1: those very airing formal choices that completely pays off. And

1493
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:07,000
Speaker 1: I think the reason it pays off is is that

1494
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:10,760
Speaker 1: it's the culmination of everything we've tried to speak to

1495
01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 1: during this conversation, which is what this movie is really about.

1496
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 1: Is what ironically all biopics about artists try to be about,

1497
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 1: which is what are the experiences and the perspectives that

1498
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: shape the artists in the work that they do. But

1499
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,760
Speaker 1: by disconnecting them the way that Tarkovsky has making it so,

1500
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:34,760
Speaker 1: the film itself isn't about the art at all or

1501
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 1: showcase in the art, and it's only at the end

1502
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 1: that we get it. It really does make us feel

1503
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 1: as if he was finally only capable of doing that

1504
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 1: work because of all of these experiences. Yeah. I love

1505
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:49,800
Speaker 1: that separation of it. I think it's very potent.

1506
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, that's good. That's the time when we need

1507
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 3: the historical record is at that moment, rather than intersperse

1508
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 3: to sort of justify or you know, try to historically

1509
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 3: root your narrative earlier, it would have been distracting, but

1510
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 3: here it is a very nice exclamation point.

1511
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,639
Speaker 1: You mentioned shades of Kurosawa here, or at least filmmaking

1512
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 1: on that scale. I can't remember if it's Scott or

1513
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,840
Speaker 1: Keith who mentioned it, but were you like them and

1514
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 1: like me thinking about during the bell sequence Werner Hertzog

1515
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:28,160
Speaker 1: and thinking about Fitzcaraldo. Not only another fool character right

1516
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:32,479
Speaker 1: in Fitzcaraldo pulling off the unthinkable, pulling off a miracle,

1517
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:35,240
Speaker 1: but I was thinking about the character, I was also

1518
01:28:35,360 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: thinking about the filmmaker. I was watching that and real

1519
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 1: quick this now made me think, Josh as well when

1520
01:28:41,120 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: you brought up I also loved that imagery of the lead.

1521
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 1: Whatever that molten substance is. But Josh, that's another tributary

1522
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: like visual yes, isn't it. It's as if these rivers

1523
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:58,679
Speaker 1: of that liquid are cascading down. But I was thinking

1524
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 1: about the work the entire time. I was just thinking

1525
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 1: about the physical work it must have taken, the people

1526
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 1: working on this film, the oh gosh, the austion designers,

1527
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:14,600
Speaker 1: anyone involved with making this film, and Tarkovski himself to

1528
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:21,560
Speaker 1: sew specifically and in such a detailed way render the

1529
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 1: creation of that bell and the hoisting of that bell

1530
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 1: the pulling of the levers, the pulleys there on the rope.

1531
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:32,000
Speaker 1: It made me think about the totally going over the

1532
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:34,800
Speaker 1: mountain if it's Karaldo, and I can't believe he did it.

1533
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: I can't believe he pulled it off.

1534
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:38,759
Speaker 3: I don't know if we've communicated the scale of this film.

1535
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we've talked about the Kursawa thing,

1536
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 3: but but so many of these sequences have you know,

1537
01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 3: they're establishing shots where important things are happening in the

1538
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,000
Speaker 3: foreground with characters we know, but if you look way

1539
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:56,120
Speaker 3: in the background, there's like fifty or sixty people doing

1540
01:29:56,280 --> 01:30:00,760
Speaker 3: something period appropriate, and frequently there are animal like just

1541
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 3: walking across the screen. I think it's another key thing

1542
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:08,760
Speaker 3: with Tarkowsky where he is. He's not Kubrick in the

1543
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:10,640
Speaker 3: sense that I mean for a lot of reasons, but

1544
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:14,839
Speaker 3: he has control, but not the Kubrickian level of control

1545
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:17,799
Speaker 3: of the frame like he he seems to be open

1546
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 3: to chaos in a way with the incorporation of animals,

1547
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,280
Speaker 3: like I said, frequently, but also you know, many extras

1548
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 3: doing their own thing nature the way nature intrudes or

1549
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 3: or is like you know, recreated to seem to intrude,

1550
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 3: but yeah, that also seems to be a unique quality

1551
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 3: of his. But just the scale of this movie Andre

1552
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:44,719
Speaker 3: Rublov alone is incredible to behold.

1553
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,760
Speaker 1: Maybe as we get through a few more films, we'll

1554
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 1: be able to make better sense of how he is

1555
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 1: using animals in the symbolic nature, because the final frame

1556
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:59,240
Speaker 1: of this film is horses, not men. And dogs recur

1557
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:03,720
Speaker 1: a lot in film, including in key moments like when

1558
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:08,920
Speaker 1: Kirol finally renounces this world, the monastic world, and decides

1559
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 1: to go out and enjoin civilization again, his dog, who

1560
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:19,800
Speaker 1: he otherwise seems to quite love and dote on. In

1561
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 1: this moment, the dog runs towards him. What does he do?

1562
01:31:22,439 --> 01:31:25,040
Speaker 1: He beats the dog. The fact that the fact that

1563
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:29,520
Speaker 1: Tarkowsky felt the need to show that type of brutality

1564
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:33,040
Speaker 1: from Kirol in that moment by beating a dog, and

1565
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 1: then dogs are a constant presence swirling throughout that entire

1566
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:40,360
Speaker 1: raid Josh as well. So just when I think thought

1567
01:31:40,360 --> 01:31:42,040
Speaker 1: i'd mentioned it's something to keep an eye on, Yeah,

1568
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:42,519
Speaker 1: for sure.

1569
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 3: I mean just when I think that I have a

1570
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:48,800
Speaker 3: decent handle, not a full handle, but a decent handle.

1571
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 3: In Andre Rublov, it ends with those final twenty seconds

1572
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 3: of a color footage of three or four horses along

1573
01:31:56,640 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 3: a stream. It's sunny but also raining on them. And

1574
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:03,920
Speaker 3: what's that all about?

1575
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:07,320
Speaker 1: Man? I mean great? Like come on like I was.

1576
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,599
Speaker 3: I thought I was doing good here and now sure

1577
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 3: now I'm lost in mystery once again.

1578
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 1: If you would like to elucidate that mystery for us,

1579
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. You can share any

1580
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 1: other comments about the show as well feedback at filmspotting

1581
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: dot net. Andre rublev is streaming on the Criterion Channel

1582
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 1: and Max. It's also available at vod Next up. We

1583
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: are taking a week off, but we will come back

1584
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:33,960
Speaker 1: and reckon with one of my blind spots nineteen seventy

1585
01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 1: nine Stocker. More information, filmspotting dot Net, Slash marathons, Josh,

1586
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:39,760
Speaker 1: That's our show.

1587
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 3: If you want to find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook,

1588
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 3: or letterboxed, he's at film Spotting. I'm at all those

1589
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 3: places as well. You can find me at Larsen on film.

1590
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 3: We are independently produced and listeners supported. You can support

1591
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 3: the show by joining the film Spotting Family at filmspottingfamily

1592
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:00,200
Speaker 3: dot com. You can listen early and ad free. You'll

1593
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 3: also get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus shows, and access

1594
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 3: to the entire show archive for show t shirts or yep,

1595
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,040
Speaker 3: we still have some Film Spotting Fest posters available. Go

1596
01:33:11,160 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 3: to film spotting dot net slash shop.

1597
01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 1: In the Film Spotting Archive, you can find conversations about

1598
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,760
Speaker 1: other Ryan Cougler films, including fruit Vale Station that was

1599
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:24,799
Speaker 1: episode four fifty six, Black Panther six sixty eight, Wakanda

1600
01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:27,240
Speaker 1: Forever eight ninety eight. It looks like we did not

1601
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:30,960
Speaker 1: give Creed a proper review on the show. We did

1602
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:34,240
Speaker 1: review Creed two, directed by Stephen Cable Junior. That was

1603
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:39,880
Speaker 1: episode seven oh seven. Streaming this weekend. You can see Havoc.

1604
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:43,280
Speaker 1: This stars Tom Hardy. This is how Sam has described it.

1605
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:47,479
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy as jaded cop in Netflix movie. He didn't

1606
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:51,040
Speaker 1: even get a name, well, not with Sam anyway. Directed

1607
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,640
Speaker 1: by Gareth Evans who made The Raid out wide. You

1608
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 1: could see Ben Affleck and John Berthel in The Accountant two.

1609
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 1: Is the Accountant review in the film's finding archive. Josh,

1610
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember.

1611
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:04,080
Speaker 3: I know, I didn't see it, and why do I

1612
01:34:04,160 --> 01:34:06,559
Speaker 3: think The Accountant two came out like five months ago?

1613
01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:10,880
Speaker 1: This is new. We have been seeing trailers Forever. Okay,

1614
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 1: you're not wrong there. The Legend of Ochi is also out.

1615
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 1: Josh gave that a few minutes and does recommend that

1616
01:34:18,040 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 1: film in limited release. The documentary about the comedy duo

1617
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,320
Speaker 1: Cheech and Chong. It's Cheech and Chong's last movie. Magic Farm,

1618
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:28,439
Speaker 1: a movie that features a film crew working for an

1619
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 1: edgy magazine traveling to South America to fabricate a trend. Okay,

1620
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 1: Chloe seven Ye, Alex Wolf, and Simon Rex co star

1621
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 1: on Swift Horses is out. Robert Daniels says it's a

1622
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:44,040
Speaker 1: slow burning, nineteen fifty set noir western driven by carnal

1623
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 1: appetites and a longing to break free from societal expectations.

1624
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:52,120
Speaker 1: It stars Jacob Elordi and Daisy Edgar Jones. David Cronenberg's

1625
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 1: The Shroud is also out in select cities, with Vincent

1626
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,360
Speaker 1: Cassell as a man who invents a technology that allows

1627
01:34:57,400 --> 01:35:00,599
Speaker 1: him to Yeah, I suppose that's accurate. Mono the Dead

1628
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:04,120
Speaker 1: with Diane Krueger. I also did want to give a

1629
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 1: quick mention Josh to a movie called Jimmy and Saigon,

1630
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 1: a documentary directed by Peter McDowell that I think actually

1631
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:15,720
Speaker 1: counts as a twenty twenty two film, played a lot

1632
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:18,599
Speaker 1: of different festivals, but is just now getting a release

1633
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:22,799
Speaker 1: at the Cinema Village in New York City this weekend.

1634
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:26,680
Speaker 1: And it's a documentary about the filmmaker Peter McDowell, who

1635
01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:29,320
Speaker 1: grew up he was the baby of the family. I

1636
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,759
Speaker 1: think there were five kids total, and had the oldest sibling, Jimmy,

1637
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:35,800
Speaker 1: who he barely knew because of the age difference, and

1638
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:40,280
Speaker 1: also because Jimmy went off to Vietnam and didn't come back,

1639
01:35:41,320 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 1: and the circumstances surrounding his death were mysterious, and part

1640
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:49,040
Speaker 1: of the mystery was that his family just never talked

1641
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:51,960
Speaker 1: about it. His parents, his other siblings, they seem to

1642
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 1: always want to kind of keep this a secret. And

1643
01:35:54,400 --> 01:35:57,840
Speaker 1: so what McDowell does is he tries to unravel the

1644
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:01,559
Speaker 1: mystery of what did happen to his brother back in Saigon,

1645
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: has experiences post war there, and I do think if

1646
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:07,080
Speaker 1: you have a chance to see Jimmy and Saigon, it's

1647
01:36:07,120 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 1: a film worth checking out. Next week, Film Spotting goes

1648
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 1: to the library the Shrouds with author Violet Lucas. She

1649
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:16,559
Speaker 1: just wrote a book about David Cronenberg called clinical Trials

1650
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:20,440
Speaker 1: and blind Spotting. We'll be looking at Gina Prince Bythwood's

1651
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 1: Love and Basketball at twenty five with Mariah Gates. She's

1652
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 1: the author of Cinema Her Way, visionary female directors in

1653
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:27,599
Speaker 1: their own words.

1654
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,599
Speaker 3: Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Desso and Sam

1655
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:33,519
Speaker 3: Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go.

1656
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:37,759
Speaker 3: Our production assistant is Sophie Kempanar special thanks to everyone

1657
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 3: at wbeazy Chicago. More information is available at wbeazy dot org.

1658
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:44,679
Speaker 3: For film Spotting, I'm Josh.

1659
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:47,160
Speaker 1: Larson and I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1660
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:50,360
Speaker 2: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

1661
01:36:51,240 --> 01:37:10,479
Speaker 1: The burn film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the film

1662
01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:13,679
Speaker 1: Spotting Family at film spottingfamily dot com and get access

1663
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:17,400
Speaker 1: to ad free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and,

1664
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:19,800
Speaker 1: for the first time, all in one place, the entire

1665
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 1: film Spotting archive going back to two thousand and five.

1666
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: That's a film Spotting Family dot com.

1667
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:28,240
Speaker 2: Panically