1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from works 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tray C. V. Wilson and its Prospect 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: Park Week. So on Monday's episode, we talked about how 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: Brooklyn's Prospect Park went from an idea to a public 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: green space that's often lauded is the greatest achievement of 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: the Olmsted and Vox partnership. This year, the park is 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: celebrating its hundred and fiftieth anniversary and to help us 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: look at its history and it's importance in the community, 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: we have three different expert guests to share their insights 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: on the park. Our first guest is Charles Burnbaum, who 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: is the President, CEO, and founder of the Cultural Landscape 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: Foundation and The Cultural Landscape Foundation is a nonprofit that 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: helps people connect to the landscapes around them. Among the 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: many resources that the Foundation offers our city, regional and 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: National Park Service guides for cities all through North America, 17 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: including New York. We can find out more about the 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: organization at tc LF dot org. We'll give you that 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: you are l again at the end of the episode, 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: and we will have it in the show notes, which, 21 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: in case you've missed it, are now on the same 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: page as the episode for newly released episodes on our website. Yeah, 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: and Charles also worked at Prospect Park earlier in his career, 24 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: so he has a really, really rich understanding of it 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: as an integral part of Brooklyn's identity. So we'll jump 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: right into that interview. My first question for you, Charles 27 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: is how do you think that Prospect Park has really 28 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: shaped Brooklyn's identity and culture over the years. You know, 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: it is just a very interesting question because when I 30 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: think about the park shaping the city's identity, I would 31 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: actually say that it mirrors the city. And let me 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: explain what I mean by that. So when you when 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: you when I look at a land escape like Prospect Park, um, 34 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: I look at it as a palam test, as a 35 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: place that has layers of history. Um. And I'll come 36 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: back to the Revolutionary War maybe a little later in 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: this conversation. But if you think about the park itself 38 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: and the design of the park beginning with Olmstead involves 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty six, um, you know, and in that 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: period it kind of um. The city of course is 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: much more rural at that time Brooklyn and um, the 42 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: way in which the park meets the city is very rustic. 43 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: You know, it was influenced, um by Andrew Jackson Downing, 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: who was a great tastemaker who you know, probably would 45 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: have designed Central Park and Prospect Park potentially had he 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: not died in a riverboat, um in the Hudson River 47 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty two. So the first era is sort 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: of the rustic period. It's sort of like, you know, 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: a country outpost. Then you of course have um the 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: City Beautiful era, which is very ever present today. You 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: know when you see things like Grand Army Plaza and 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: the kind of boatart Bose Arts designs like the Boat 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: House and all of the sculptures and memorials by people 54 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: like Daniel Chester French and Alfrederic mcmoneys and others. And 55 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: so in the same way that New York City was 56 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: having the City Beautiful era like a lot of great 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: American cities after the World's Columbian Exposition. UM, you know, 58 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: the park echoes that, and then as you continue to 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: move along the park then moves into the w p 60 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: A era where it is it's very much about active 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: use and so as in the same way that we 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: look at kind of suburban developments in the US and 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: everyone having their own backyard world city, so had you know, 64 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: active parks with playgrounds and sports fields and you know 65 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: a bandshell, a zoo, all these things, um came in 66 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: during Robert Moses era UM in many of the New 67 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: York City parks, and it played out in a big 68 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: way in Prospect Park between the nineteen thirties and nineteen sixties, 69 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: and then as a mirror of the city, the park, 70 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: like New York City, went through a period of decline 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: in the sixties and f and d s until around 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: when the Prospect Park Alliance was founded and the renaissance 73 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: began for the park and the renaissance was beginning in 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: the city at the same time. And I would say 75 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: that the work in the park has gained steam in 76 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: the same way, um that the city has had a 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: great renaissance. And um, you know that to me is 78 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: kind of the interesting story where you have the rustic period, 79 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: the Bozart's period, active recreational decline, renaissance. It's the story 80 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: of the park, but it's also very much the story 81 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: of Brooklyn in the same way, and in terms of 82 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: Olmsted and Vox. How do you think Prospect Park compares 83 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: to their Central Park design? Well, you know, um, I 84 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: may have mentioned to you when we saw each other 85 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: the other time that um, you know, in the nineties, 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: I was working on four of the five parts of 87 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: the park that we're doing historic landscape reports, um for 88 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: things like the perimeter and the long Meadow. The long 89 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: Meadow was done by the late George Patton, who was 90 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: the landscape architect. The other four parts of the park 91 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: were being looked at by uh Anthony Walmsley and Patricia 92 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: O'Donnell and UM, you know, I remember we had a 93 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: historian at that time. Oh I believe might have lived 94 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. His name was Alphine and he was a 95 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: great landscape historian. He taught at Harvard and um, you know, 96 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: you know he used to Bemoan. At that time that 97 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, people didn't know who Olmstead was, and by extension, 98 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: people certainly didn't know who Calbert Box was. So I think, 99 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, specifically, when you think about how does this 100 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: park compare with Central Park, UM, this probably a little 101 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: bit more Calbert Box here. Um. You know, there's a 102 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: great um doodle that was done by Box. UM in 103 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty five. And I remember when our historian Joy 104 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: Keston down unearthed this and it showed you that the 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: idea for the park as we know at its boundaries 106 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: UM was really UM something that Calbert Box saw and 107 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: it was a great departure from the earlier land by 108 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: the the engineer Egbert Whale. So so that was a 109 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: big deal first and foremost UM. Second, when we think 110 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: about it in relation to Central Park, I think the 111 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: big thing here is connectivity. That Central Park was really 112 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: created as a destination park UM for you know, Manhattan 113 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: really more than anywhere else Whereas I think when you 114 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: look at Prospect Park, that Prospect Park was part of 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn park system. So for example Eastern Parkway which 116 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: meets the park. Uh, this is actually the first time 117 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: in our history that even the term parkway is used 118 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: UM and is created if you will buy Olmstead invokes 119 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: UM for this project. You know, in addition, this idea 120 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: of connecting as far away as the Brooklyn beaches like 121 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: Coney Island, the Palisades, Central Park, going across the East River. UM. 122 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: You know, this was UM an ambition, planning ambition that 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: had never been tackled before. And so I think that 124 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: one of the big differences between the two is Central 125 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: Park was a great park in a city, and Prospect 126 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: Park was a great park in a great city that 127 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: was conceived to be connected both within that borough of Manhattan, 128 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: but also connecting all the way to Central Park. And 129 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: I guess the last thing I would say about your 130 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: question is when you just kind of look at the 131 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: design itself, and you know, Omstit and Voggs had learned 132 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: a lot um you know working on Central Park, Um, 133 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, but the acres that are Prospect Park, I 134 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: think what's extraordinary here is that um composition a lee. 135 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: There is a level of perfection here the Long Meadow, 136 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: for example, measures and when you um, when I look 137 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: at a landscape, I like to think about landscapes like 138 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: Prospect Park in the were body of work of Omestead 139 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: and Olmstead in vox And you know, the Long Meadow, 140 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: along with Central Parks, Great Lawn, Franklin Park in Boston, 141 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: and Washington Park in Chicago, those are the four grade 142 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of if you will, country parks with a great 143 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: big meadow. And I would say, of all of those, 144 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: the Long Meadow and Prospect Park is probably the most iconic. Uh, 145 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: there's a reason why we're told. Rabinsky put that view 146 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: on the cover of his book of Clearing in the Distance, 147 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: And you could say the same about Prospect Park Lake 148 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: sixty acres. I mean, that's kind of you know, think 149 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: about how big that is, and to be able to 150 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: achieve a sixty acre lake in the city, and then 151 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: the ravine hundred and forty six acres, and when you're 152 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: in the ravine, you have escaped the city. And I 153 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: think that's one of the great things about Prospect Park 154 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: still today, is that there's so many parts of the 155 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: park where the city disappears. Uh. It's much harder to 156 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: do that in Central Park with the scale of of 157 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: the buildings that surround that landscape. And although that has 158 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: changed some in Brooklyn, UM, there are so many places 159 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: you can be in the park and you suddenly have 160 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: this epiphany thinking gosh, where have I gone? You don't 161 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: realize you're still in Brooklyn. And so I think all 162 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: of those things collectively distinguished the park. UM and I 163 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: think the fact that Omested and Box had been there before, 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: both in terms of park making. But I would say 165 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: also um understanding the politics of park making allowed them 166 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: to create something that words such as iconic and masterpiece 167 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: are often used to describe Prospect Park more than any 168 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: other homested and box landscape. And you've answered this a 169 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: little bit with that really illuminating answer. But what else 170 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: do you think sets this park apart, not just from 171 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: Central Park but other green spaces. Well, I would say 172 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: one one of the things about UM the Park is 173 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: that it is UM It's true the a cultural landscape 174 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: that when UM we look at what a cultural landscape is, 175 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: it is any landscape that is shaped by humankind. And 176 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: it can be what's called a historic design landscape the 177 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: e g. The work of Olmsted Involkes, but it could 178 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: also be a historic site UM because of an important 179 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: person or event. And you know, I just what I 180 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: find sort of remarkable is that you could be in 181 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: the middle of Brooklyn and you don't realize that there 182 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: are cultural life ways UM at the battle pass of 183 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War playing out in New York City, let 184 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: alone in what is now Prospect Park. So I think 185 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,479 Speaker 1: on top of all of the significance as a masterpiece 186 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: of landscape architecture, UH and a world class designed by 187 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: Olmsted involves and others that have also contributed to the 188 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: park over time, that it's also a cultural landscape as 189 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: a place that saw troop movement during the Revolutionary War. 190 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: And so then again this might you have so many 191 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: good tidbits. Um, do you think that is maybe the 192 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: answer to this question or perhaps something else? What do 193 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: you think is the most important thing for people to 194 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: realize about Prospect Parks history? Well, I, I you're right, 195 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: I have to I've touched upon this a little bit, 196 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: and I would just say that you know, when, Um, 197 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: when I was studying landscape architecture in the late nineties, seventies, 198 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: early eighties. Um, you know, I have to remember in 199 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: the seventies, the Olmsted Renaissance was kind of just beginning. 200 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: Um Frebrick Law Olmstead's own home and office studio in Brookline, Massachusetts, 201 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: had only become a National Park site in the nineteen sixties, 202 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: and it was designated. And you know, the reality is 203 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: that with modernism and other approaches to design, that the 204 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: omestead tradition, if you will, for the picturesque in places 205 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: like Prospect Park, um had been forgotten and it was 206 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: really you know, with the founding of the Central Park 207 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: Conservancy in nineteen seventy nine, and the Prospect Park Alliance 208 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: in nine eight. Um, you had, I believe it was 209 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: the founding of the National Association for Homested Parks. There 210 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: were major exhibitions at the Metropolitan and the National Gallery 211 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: in Washington, and UM, you know there's a reason why. 212 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Of the about maybe a little less than two thousand 213 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: works of landscape architecture that are listed on the National Register, 214 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: about two hundred of those were designed by Homestead or 215 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: his successor firm. So you know, when I what's remarkable 216 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: to me is that there has been such a great 217 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: renaissance for Homestead and and and for parks like Prospect Park. UM. 218 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: I think that what we can now do today is 219 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: we can contextualize these We can understand what makes Prospect 220 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: Park one of the great homested bogs landscapes. And I 221 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: think that there are several things here. First of all, 222 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: I think we now realize that there were three homesteads. 223 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: You know that homes fits son and nephew Um, who 224 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: was his stepson. Um continued the firm's tradition. Omestead Jr. 225 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: Continues work well into UM, you know, the nineteen fifties, 226 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: and you know, to some extent. The Omsted brothers remained 227 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: very involved in New York City, uh in places like 228 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: for Try and Park, but in terms of Prospect Park itself. 229 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: When UM, when I started looking at this landscape as 230 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: a young student, I think that people thought places like 231 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: Central and Prospect Park where acts of God. That somehow 232 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: we just put a stone wall around it, we put 233 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: some pretty buildings in it, and that it was there. 234 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: And I think Omesteed and Vox, to their detriment at 235 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: that time, made it look so apt and so easy 236 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: that everyone thought just that they couldn't imagine that it 237 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: was a manufactured landscape in the same way that Brooklyn 238 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: Bridge Park or the Highline are today. And and that 239 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: was to their credit to create something. And it was 240 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: of course a resource that had a hundred and twenty 241 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: five years to grow in for better or worse, through 242 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: sometimes through proper stewardship, other times through neglect. And you know, 243 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: I think in the seventies people did think it was 244 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: potentially an act of God. They had um, they had 245 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: sort of a cultural amnesia that that Olmstead and Fox 246 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: had designed this UM And I think today when you 247 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: see the park, what's so exciting for me? UM when 248 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: I revisit it and to see the park um coming 249 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: back to life. I mean in the seventies, you know, 250 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: benches had no slats um viewing, UM shelters were just um, 251 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: literally slabs of concrete with no pavilion that remained, perhaps 252 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: it was lost to fire or arson or vandalism. That 253 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: the park. You really had to squint then, not to 254 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: see the tree canopy in decline, not to see the graffiti, 255 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: not to see the vandalism. And you know, we forget 256 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: that it took twenty five years to build these parks 257 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: or more, and it has taken the said fast leadership 258 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: of the Prospect Park Alliance, the Central Park Conservancy and 259 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: other groups throughout the country UM to bring these places back. 260 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: So I wandered there a little bit from your question, 261 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: and I think that I think the most important thing 262 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: for people to see as I began talking to you 263 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: about seeing the park as a mirror for the city, 264 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: and I think the park is also a mirror for 265 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: the culture. And you know, one of the things that's 266 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: exciting today is that when people go to the park, 267 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: there's such enjoyment and there's such understanding and respect that 268 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: it compels us all to be good stewards and how 269 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: we use the park um to the highest possible enjoyment 270 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: that we can have. And it's natural, its scenic, it's cultural, 271 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: it's recreational, UM and it all plays out in all 272 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: five acres today And so to me, that's the most 273 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: exciting thing that yes, it's a masterpiece of landscape architecture. 274 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: And you know, we can line up all of the 275 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: holms that involve scholars and they can tell us why 276 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: it is such a significant work. But UM, today it 277 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: is important because we get to see ourselves in this place, 278 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: we get to use it, and we also get to 279 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: know that there is no place like it. And UM, 280 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: you know that to me is it puts us within 281 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: this larger Palam says that I began with this larger 282 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: cultural story that we get to be a part of, 283 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: and especially for those people that live close by, if 284 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: they choose to, they get to be a part of 285 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: it every day. So UM, you know, I would say 286 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: the only thing that I would say other than UM 287 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: that has been changing is I think you know, maybe 288 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: ten or twenty years ago, if you were tourists going 289 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: to New York City and you know you're going to 290 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: the Metropolitan and you were going to Central Park and 291 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, these days you're going to the high Line. 292 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: I think because of what's happened with Brooklyn as this 293 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: kind of um cultural destination, what I think is exciting 294 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: is that there are all new audiences of people who 295 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: are now being exposed to the park and seeing it 296 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: for the masterpiece, the internationally celebrated masterpiece that it it 297 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: should be, and it absolutely is worthy of being. As 298 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: we mentioned before we started that interview, and as Charles 299 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: also alluded to as he was speaking, he worked at 300 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: Prospect Park for a while in the nineteen eighties, and 301 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: so next up he'll talk a little bit about the 302 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: efforts that restored the park in the last thirty years. 303 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: But before we get to that, we're gonna pause for 304 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. We are going to pick right 305 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: up with Charles's insight into the work of Christian Zimmerman 306 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: and Tupper Thomas, as well as others who have been 307 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: key figures and reinvigorating Brooklyn's Prospect Park. Well, you know, 308 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: for me, what I think is so interesting is that 309 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: the story of any great landscape has the story of 310 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: great patrons, and a patron can be someone who's philanthropic 311 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: UM that writes a big check and you know, the 312 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: Lakeside Center, for example, in Prospect Park is the benefit 313 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: of of that kind of patronage. It couldn't have been 314 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: done without those individuals that UM allowed such a magnificent 315 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: work of design between Todd and Billy and the Prospect 316 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: Park Alliance under Christians Immiment to happen. But you know, 317 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: patronage is also about UM being UM passionate, having a 318 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: political acumen. And that person can be at a municipal 319 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: level in the same way that Stranahan was who was 320 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: a patron and UM enabler for Olmstead Inbox when the 321 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: park was created. But it can also be someone like 322 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: Tupper Thomas and as someone who had the good fortune 323 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: of working with Tupper in the eighties and then UM 324 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: has followed her work both UM for you know, for 325 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 1: several decades at the Alliance and then her role as 326 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: an ambassador for the importance of great parks throughout the US. 327 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: What's remarkable to me when I think back to those 328 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: early days at the Alliance when it you know, it 329 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: was kind of a spit and glue operation when it 330 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: first started. UM that when you see someone like Tupper 331 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: who comes with a geography background for her to actually 332 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: um straddle the bureaucracy of New York City. UM when 333 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: when this was all starting UM, you know, and remember 334 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: this was not New York City. It didn't have um 335 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: the political capital and the the well the wealthy neighbors 336 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: that Central Park had when it first started. And I 337 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: think that what Tupper was able to achieve is UM 338 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: it's it's not just the story of the park that 339 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: we all get to enjoy today, it was actually building 340 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: the alliance itself. And then when you see people like 341 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: Christian Zimmerman, who you know, I remember when he first 342 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: started as an intern in the park and to see 343 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: the work that he's done alongside UM as a landscape 344 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: architect working on on the Lakeside Um project. UM. I 345 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: think it's just one of the most magnificent rehabilitations of 346 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: an urban park in the US in the last decade. 347 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: And I think it's because it recaptured, um, those inherent 348 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: qualities of what Olmstead involves had intended that had been 349 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: eradicated during the Robert Moses era. But then also UM, 350 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: hand in glove you have Todd Williams and Billy Sign 351 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: then working on a building that is thoroughly modern and 352 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: is seamlessly inserted into a landscape that had been denuded, 353 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: that had been diminished both in terms of its historic 354 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: and cultural and ecological values. And I think it's an exemplar. 355 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: And it is because of Tupper's initial leadership envision that 356 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: established the tone for that park. And it's the work 357 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: that then, several decades later, that someone like Christian gets 358 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: to work both inside the Alliance in concert with world 359 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: class architects to create something that is um appropriate for 360 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 1: a world class masterpiece work of landscape architecture. Next up, 361 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: I got to chat with Christian Zimmerman, who Charles mentioned, 362 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: and Christian is the Prospect Park Alliances vice President of 363 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: Capital and Landscape Management. In this interview, he not only 364 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: told Holly what his job is, but he also spoke 365 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: about how the Alliances team has approached their work on 366 00:21:53,640 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: revitalizing this park while also remaining mindful of its rich history. So, first, awfully, 367 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: you tell us exactly what a Capital and Landscape vice 368 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: president does well. The simple answer is I oversee everything blue, 369 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: green and being built um. The longer answer is I 370 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: oversee um all design and construction for the park. So 371 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: I have a team of architects landscape architects that do 372 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: that work, and then I also oversee horticulture, turf UM 373 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: the Landscape Management division if you well, that has natural 374 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: resources crew as well as our borer culture and they 375 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: deal with the water. So you can see why I 376 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: say blue green and being built. Yeah, I actually think 377 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good distinct and fairly clear way to 378 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: to answer that question. Uh. And you've been at the 379 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: park for a while, and when you joined it it 380 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: was in really serious need of renovation, So I wonder 381 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: how much you looked at its initial designs and various 382 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: phases of design history in determining your plans for its 383 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: future at that point. Yes, so I started in. When 384 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: I came here, we didn't have a lot of information. 385 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: There were some annual reports um and large scale drawings. 386 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: But one of the first things that I was hired 387 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: to do was to with two other people's to research 388 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: and try and collect as much information on the park 389 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: that was possible. So we went to the Library of 390 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: Congress in d C. And we went up to Brookline, Massachusetts, 391 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: which is where Homestead's office and home was, and it's 392 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: a national park and and just tried to call through 393 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: all of that and see what we had for the park. 394 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: So the idea was really just doing a deep dive 395 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: into understanding what Proser Park was um its historical significance, 396 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: and what remained and what had changed. And have there 397 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: been any times in your ongoing works, particularly since you 398 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: did do so much research, where some design element or 399 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: idea from early in the park's history has struck you 400 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: as particularly surprising or innovat um. You know, there are 401 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: a lot of little gems in the park that that 402 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: surprised me when you when I walk around one of 403 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: them and it's not so obvious, but if you there's 404 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: a bridge called rock Arts Bridge. It's a tiny little 405 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: bridge we restored um in the ravine that had there 406 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: are nine ft of sediment. It came in and just 407 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: filled in this water course and we uncovered this bridge 408 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 1: and there's this tiny little opening where the water would 409 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: flow through. And that in itself isn't um so interesting. 410 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: But depending on when you walk on the path, so 411 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: like early in the morning when the sun rises coming 412 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: from the east, um, the light shining through that tiny 413 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: little opening, it just glows. It makes the the water 414 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: course glow, and that had to be kind of purposeful 415 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: how they oriented that bridge, um, and that works the 416 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: same way in sunset if you come from the other direction. 417 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: So there's interesting things like that. That's really lovely. Now 418 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: that's like a thing I have to do when I'm 419 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: in New York. Next, very early ago to Prospect Park. 420 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: Are there any elements of the original landscape design for 421 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: the park that you have maybe wanted to work on 422 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: but they just aren't really possible to recreate today or 423 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: aren't sustainable today. There was always a proposal about the 424 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: original design actually up to when they quit working on 425 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: the park on Sudden Box Um, they proposed a refectory, 426 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: a big dining hall in the middle of the park 427 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: and they really wanted that to be built. And that 428 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: never was built. And we couldn't do that now because 429 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: in its place as a large bridge that Calvert Box 430 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: had designed. So it just it would be an awkward 431 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: to do. I just can't put a dining hall on 432 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: top of a bridge. Um. You know, there's that I'd 433 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: love to build the dairy we had a dairy, like 434 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: Central Park has its dairy in the middle of the woods. 435 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: But that would be very difficult to do these days. Um, 436 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: in access it's a it's a woods now, so we'd 437 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: have to cut down a lot of trees and we 438 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: don't really want to do that. Yeah, I have to 439 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: wonder you. You make me think about whether or not 440 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: there are things that are on your wish list that 441 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: you think are possible that you're free to share with us, 442 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: or if that's all off limits until things get approved. 443 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: Oh no, I have a I have a laundry list. 444 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: I think I have about a hundred eighty million dollars 445 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: of capital easily. Um, there are a number of structures 446 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: I'd like to bring back. There was a sat shelter 447 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: that sat up um near Grand Army Plosit. It's this 448 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: beautiful little structure. They had these dotted all throughout the park. 449 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: And then these um what we're called summer houses. There 450 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: were these four rustic shelters along the lake. We've only 451 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: recreated one, and it would be nice to bring the 452 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: other three back. That's lovely. Do you have a favorite 453 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: of the projects that you've done already that you're especially 454 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: proud of in terms of of bringing back the park's 455 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: historic intent. Um, it would be the ravine storation. That's 456 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: bringing back the water course. So where we reconstructed actually 457 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: the ravine and to the bin and water. UM, three waterfalls, 458 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: these ponds stream, UM, just this, it's a beautiful water course. UM. 459 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: So that's probably and that's that's a probably the most 460 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: um special UM we followed. You know, we use historic 461 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: photographs to recreate these waterfalls and this water course. UM. 462 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: You know, we number everything, UM, you know, identify the 463 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: rocks through the photographs and put them back where they 464 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: were supposed to be. Some of them had fallen our erosion. 465 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: That's got to be a labor of love at that point. 466 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: I think when you're comparing photographs to what you're doing 467 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: on an ongoing basis, we do a lot of that. UM, 468 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: we do a lot of photo reference. So because we 469 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: don't have the original detail drawings, we only have the 470 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: large scale plans. So we read the annual reports where 471 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: it will say when you're reconstructing a bridge that it 472 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: was a you know, twenty five ft long bridge, six 473 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: wide and um made of black locust. And then you 474 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: look at the pictures kind of it. That's sort of 475 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: like a great uh puzzle work. Though I would think, UM, 476 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: and I have to wonder if your planning updates to 477 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: areas of the property, because I know you obviously have 478 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: to do it in phases. It's not like you do 479 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: everything at once. But I wonder how you're balancing honoring 480 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: the park's past with also honoring the needs of Brooklyn's 481 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: modern residents. We're you know, we constantly do that. Obviously. 482 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: You know, we have playgrounds in the park. Playgrounds, I mean, 483 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: there was a playground. It's different than what we consider 484 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: a playground on the North end. But you know, modern 485 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: playgrounds didn't really weren't part of the original design, so 486 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: we're not getting rid of playgrounds, so that's. Um. What's 487 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: kind of interesting is most of the intrusions or the 488 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: changes to the park from the historic are along the 489 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: perimeter and on the outside of the park drive. Um, 490 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: there are some buildings inside the park, but for the 491 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: most part, it's a pretty intact design from the omestead 492 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: and boxed period. And what I'm finding is that it 493 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: is because of the park of its size, it's very 494 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: accommodating to modern interventions. Um. You know, we have ball 495 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: fields on the Long Meadow. We're not going to get 496 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: rid of them, and we're doing them. But it's the 497 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: brilliance of the design. It It just kind of absorbs 498 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: new things and just makes it a part of the 499 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: park's design. So the idea for us is to um 500 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: as I say, and what almost had really believed in 501 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: is he didn't want objects on the landscape. He wanted 502 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: everything to be within. It was all a single piece. 503 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: So if you think of a painting, um, it all 504 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: blended together as opposed to things dotting on top of it. 505 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: So like a diamond ring on your finger, everything just 506 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: is a singular composition. And then finally, what do you 507 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: hope as you know, the park is celebrating its big 508 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: milestone anniversary this year, what do you hope that historians 509 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: and fifty years from now are writing about the park's landscape. 510 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that the period that I've been a part 511 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: of it, that they see that is that we've done 512 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: well and that we honored the original design without keeping 513 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: it so precious that we didn't allow the park to evolve. 514 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: We you know, we let it evolve. Um, it is 515 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: a living, breathing landscape. But that they see that as 516 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: as our modern interventions, UM, we're done elegantly and in 517 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: keeping with the original intent of accommodating, you know, large 518 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: masses of people. That bridge description that he gave really 519 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: did put Prospect Park at Sunrise on my list of 520 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: things that I'm going to do next time I'm in 521 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: New York if I can manage it in any way, 522 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: because it sounds really beautiful. Our last interview is with 523 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: Tupper Thomas, who is often credited with saving Prospect Park. 524 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: We'll talk to her about taking on this daunting task 525 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: of trying to turn this massive, dilapidated park around. But 526 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: first we're going to pause for one more quick sponsor break. Alrighty, 527 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: we will pick right up with Tupper, who shares her 528 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: knowledge gleaned from three decades of work with the Prospect 529 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: Park Alliance with us. So first I have to ask you, 530 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: did you know about the long history of Prospect Park 531 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: before you became the founding president of the Prospect Park Alliance. 532 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: So um, I actually was first the first administrator for 533 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: Prospect Park, reporting to the Parks Department. So I started 534 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: that in with the plan that we would form something 535 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: like what we did, which was the Presci Park Alliance. 536 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: But before I started as the administrator, I didn't even 537 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: know that you didn't spell omestead with an a. You know, 538 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: so I had I had actually taken a course in 539 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: urban planning and had a background and omestead, but I 540 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: misspelled it throughout the entire course and nobody corrected it. 541 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: But um, but I did know the importance of omestead 542 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn because of Eastern Parkway in the park. But 543 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: that's really all that I knew when I got started. 544 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: And I also didn't really know an oak from a 545 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: maple tree. My background was government and red tape and 546 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: how to get rid of it and things like that, 547 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: and community outreach work. So it was very exciting to 548 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: learn the history UH and by the time we started 549 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: the alliance in seven years later, I was steeped in 550 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: the Omestead and Vox histories of the park. And you 551 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: ended up helming a rather historic private public partnership when 552 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: you began with the alliance. Will you tell us about 553 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: sort of how that came together and how it ended 554 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: up existing. Yes, So, the Central Park Conservancy had been 555 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: the first such animal to be created, and that had 556 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: started in nineteen and that was the first time that UH, 557 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: a park actually became something you could give money to, 558 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: like a museum or a garden where you actually brought 559 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: the private sector into help bring in money, and having 560 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: it in Central Park made lots of sense. Two people 561 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: that sort of put the idea out there, but to 562 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: create that sort of an institution in Brooklyn was a 563 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: little more complicated. We uh we had really had to 564 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: think about who would be on that board, who would 565 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: really represent it, and even the name was really a 566 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: significant issue for Henry Christensen, who became our chair, and 567 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: I too to grapple with because Brooklyn was a very 568 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: different places. Was not the in spot that all of 569 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: everybody's children go to live in now, it was the 570 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: spot where your grandmother used to live, and so really 571 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: trying to create something that felt more like Brooklyn. We 572 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: we called it the Present Park Alliance and the versus 573 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: a conservancy because it really was an alliance of the 574 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: public sector, the private sector, and the community all working together. 575 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: So uh we we really took a while to get 576 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: it going. It took me four years just to find 577 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: Henry Christensen, which was a complicated thing, but to find 578 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: somebody who would share this entity, who was from Brooklyn, 579 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: who who had enough contexts and things that he could 580 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: really bring in and raise money and to put together. 581 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: And then he and I from to eight seven had 582 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: to put together aboard and sometime was It was a 583 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: much longer process than would normally be taken, but it 584 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: showed people across the country that it could be done 585 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: not just in the middle of Manhattan, in the wealthiest 586 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: section of the of the world, but could be done 587 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: in places like Brooklyn and then Pittsburgh and so on 588 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: and so forth. So we really sort of showed people 589 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: that you could do such a thing, um, and you 590 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: could create that out of um in a neighborhood that 591 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: was not necessarily the wealthiest community in this in the country. 592 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: And I think I read somewhere an interview with you 593 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: where you had said, like one of the trickiest things 594 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: was integrating the team in terms of people who had 595 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: come from the private sector in the public sector. Yeah, 596 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: so a public private partnership is is not necessarily comfortable. UM. 597 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: It means you've got to the government people and you've 598 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: got the not for profit staff. So the not for 599 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: profit staff tend to be he a little less and 600 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: they don't have permanent jobs, um, and they're very enthusiastic, 601 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: but they move around, you know, they don't stay with 602 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: you all the time. And then the parks department staff. 603 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: We're actually very dedicated people who loved actually working in 604 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: press of cares. You could transfer out if you didn't 605 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: want to be in work, um, but to be in 606 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: the park in the sort of that sort of situation 607 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: meant that you had people who really wanted to work 608 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: and wanted to to produce a beautiful park, but there 609 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: was an attitude difference between the two of them. And 610 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: it took really two or three years of little meetings 611 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: and special events and different kinds of parties and retreats 612 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing to get people to understand 613 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: that both sets of people really wanted the park to 614 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: be a great place. And so it was probably one 615 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: of the most complicated processes, and we were helped along 616 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: by a number of wonderful organizations like the Funds for 617 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: the City of New York, who helped us get over 618 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: that that barrier. So it was it was a very 619 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: interesting part of the process, which I don't think exists 620 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: as a problem in present park anymore. And then, of 621 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: course it became the not for profit side of this, 622 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: and the ability to raise private dollars in a public 623 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: park really meant that we could do special programming, we 624 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: could hire people who could do special things that the 625 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: city couldn't necessarily do. So a huge you know, pretty 626 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: big natural resources crew or programs in the buildings that 627 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: we had just restored. But we really had a very 628 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: big commitment from government to get that going. It was 629 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: a significant amount of money was given to us right 630 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: off the bat. So we knew that we had the 631 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 1: ability to get things done from government because I think 632 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: otherwise the private sector wouldn't have felt so comfortable starting 633 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: to put money in. And so when you first took 634 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: on this massive project of restoring the park at a 635 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: time when it was really in a pretty rough state, uh, 636 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: and you have assembled this team, what was really the 637 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: biggest obstacle after that? The biggest obstacle was really actually 638 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: getting people to return to the park. It was a 639 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: beautiful piece of landscape that had simply been allowed to 640 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,959 Speaker 1: uh fall apart. The buildings were shots, they were all 641 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: almost every building in the park was closed. Um. And 642 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: so we get we had the capital dollars just to 643 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: do this work given by the city for the basics, 644 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: you know, fix up the building and do this and 645 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: do that, and start doing some landscape work, but we 646 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: didn't have the public so It was a totally opposite 647 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: from the Central Park experience, where they had billions of 648 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: people coming and just going all over in the park 649 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: and running it down. We had nobody in the park 650 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: and they were there was fear and crime, and so 651 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: the issues were much more um uh. Not the obtaining 652 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: of the initial capital money, which we got really in night. 653 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: We got ten million dollars, which was a lot of 654 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: money then to get started. And then every year we 655 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: had a commitment first from the Cot administration and then 656 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: Giuliani and then I mean Dakins and Giuliani, So we 657 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: always were getting very good capital dollars to restore things 658 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: from government. But what we needed to do is get 659 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: people to come to the park, enjoy the park, and 660 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: then become involved, become volunteers, become fundraisers, become all of 661 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: these other things so that you could bring a real public. 662 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: But we only had um a little over a million 663 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 1: people visit a year in the first year, and you 664 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: know now we're way over ten millions. So it was 665 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: a big, big difference in the issues that proser Park 666 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 1: faces now versus what we were facing then was very different. 667 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: So the perception of crime, uh and the the fact 668 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: that people had stopped going to the park and stopped 669 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: building traditions around the park. Uh, And it took a 670 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: long time to get that programming going to encourage people 671 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: to come back. And as part of that, I mean, 672 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: a park is so central to the identity of the 673 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: place in which it exists. So I wonder what you 674 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: think is the park's most important legacy to Brooklyn's history. Well, 675 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,439 Speaker 1: there's so many, Um, there's so many things. First of all, 676 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: it was it was what brought a great sense of 677 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: democracy into Brooklyn in the early days, so that you 678 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: had this beautiful public space that everyone could use, every 679 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: immigrants who arrived or every wealthy merchant. It was just 680 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: available and there, and it created senses of community from 681 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: all the way around the park. It gave the building 682 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: of Brooklyn a very big boost. But it you know, 683 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: and it continues to do so today. So it is 684 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: still the place where no matter how much money you 685 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: make or what you do, you walk in there and 686 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 1: you're just like all the other people. You're having a 687 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: great time. You're with your family, you're doing all these 688 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: things together, so you're you're really enjoying your um, your 689 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: time with the family and within your community, even though 690 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,719 Speaker 1: the commune unity is enormous around Prospect Park, and now 691 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: it's becoming larger because people even come from Manhattan to 692 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: go to Prospect Park. So it's because it is so beautiful. Also, 693 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: it was created at the same time as the museum 694 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: and then a little later the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, so 695 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: we have these sort of cultural hub right there of 696 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: the garden, the park, the museum, the zoo just a 697 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: little ways away, the Children's museum, the Brooklyn Public Library. 698 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: So it created this place. And one of the things 699 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: that we noticed with great happiness is when Arnold Lehman 700 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: came to the Brooklyn Museum, he changed the way the 701 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: museum described itself by saying that it was next to 702 00:43:54,440 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: Prospect Park. Now that never would have happened in you know, 703 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: and whatever have said, oh and we're right nick to 704 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: Prosperent Park, they would have said, oh God. And you 705 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: know the other thing that we noticed is suddenly, when 706 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: you were selling your house, you know, the advertisement would 707 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: always say only a few blocks from Prospect Park or 708 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: right next to Prospect Park. And so that's when we 709 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: realized that the park was now an asset in the borough. 710 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: But I think That's why Howard Golden, the borough president 711 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: of Many you know in the nineties eighties and just 712 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: before that, put a big investment of capital money into 713 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: the park because you know, he had known the park 714 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: back in the day when it was great and uh 715 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: and had a positive impact, and then he had known 716 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: it without that. So I think we've got them even 717 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: more positive impact than we ever have had, for you know, 718 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: in the two thousand's we'd really um and hits our 719 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: mark with with with coming back, but then going forward, 720 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: I think we're probably the park is very influential on 721 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: very many neighborhoods now And since the park is celebrating 722 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: its hundred and fifty anniversary this year, I wonder what 723 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: you hope historians a hundred and fifty years from now 724 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: we'll write about the park. Yes, I love that question. 725 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: So a hundred and fifty years ago, you know, what 726 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: do people think this design that ownst Ebok came up 727 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: with is shockingly flexible that it has lasted this hundred 728 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: and fifty years with people being able to enjoy it 729 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: in the ways that people of the eighteen sixties and 730 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: the ways of the people in two thousand and seventeen 731 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: use it in very different ways, but it's totally used. 732 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: So the passive, the ability to just walk and beauty 733 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: and relax and feel it's all yours is still there 734 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: for people. But they can also play ultimate frisbee versus 735 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: tennis in the long net. You know, there were just 736 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: very different different activities that went on and uh in 737 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds and now. So my hope would be 738 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,479 Speaker 1: that in a hundred and fifty years they would be saying, well, 739 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,879 Speaker 1: it was great that they formed this Prosser Park alliance 740 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: because it's really meant that the park never had to 741 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 1: go down hill the way it did several times in 742 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: the first hundred and fifty years. It is stayed consistently 743 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: fabulous all of this time for this hundred and fifty 744 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: and is still so flexible in its design that it 745 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: accommodates the people of the century. Uh. That flexibility of 746 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: the park space is not something I really would have 747 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: thought about before talking with Tupper, but it really does 748 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: speak to the elegance of his design really from day one. 749 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: So we want to wish Prospect Park a very happy 750 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: hundred and fiftieth anniversary. If you're in the Brooklyn area, 751 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: you can check out Prospect Park dot org to see 752 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: everything that the park has to offer, uh and the 753 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: events that are scheduled there. Our deepest gratitude to Charles Burnbaum, 754 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: Christian Zimmerman and Tupper Thomas for taking time to speak 755 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: with us about this amazing piece of what's really living history. 756 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:42,840 Speaker 1: And again, if you would like to check out the 757 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: work that Charles does with the Cultural Landscape Foundation, including 758 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: their city guides, you can visit TCLF dot org. That 759 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,319 Speaker 1: website offers a lot of really fun rabbit holes to explore. Oh, 760 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: they do programs all over North America where they kind 761 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,959 Speaker 1: of give people an opportunity to learn about the lands 762 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: escapes in the public spaces and the architecture that they 763 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 1: live around all the time and maybe don't look at 764 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: It's a really cool foundation. Uh. And you can also, 765 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: of course visit Prospect Park at Prospect carc dot org. 766 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: As we said, there's a cajillion things that you could 767 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: do there and it's a big, beautiful space. Yes, I 768 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: have some listener mail for us I do. It's kind 769 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 1: of a short version of listener mail because this episode 770 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: runs a little bit long, but we got an actual 771 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: piece of mail mail from our listener D and D 772 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: wanted to request an episode because she is a descendant 773 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: of a person who survived the Sultana disaster and she 774 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: wanted us to do an episode on it. Um And 775 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 1: I felt a little bit bad because she wrote us 776 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: this very long letter and it's very impassioned with a 777 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,799 Speaker 1: lot of information. But we have actually already done an 778 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: episode on the Sultana, I think almost three years ago. 779 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 1: Uh So I just wanted to use this as kind 780 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,839 Speaker 1: of an opportunity to remind people you can actually search 781 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: our website anytime, uh and you will find out if 782 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: we have back episodes on a thing. Tracy has really 783 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: been kind of, uh, this amazing driving force in getting 784 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: all of our older episodes that were before she and 785 00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: I were working on this podcast tagged properly so that 786 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: search will bring up things when you're actually looking for them, 787 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: uh uh and the Sultana is definitely one that comes up. 788 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: We do get a lot of questions about whether we 789 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,759 Speaker 1: have an episode on a particular thing um or suggestions 790 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: for episodes that we already have and a thing that 791 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: I think listeners might not realize. Who let me stress 792 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: how much we love our listeners and we love hearing 793 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: for you. I get the answer to that question by searching, 794 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 1: and you can just cut out that middleman like you 795 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: do not have to wait for my sorry behind to 796 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: find the link because everything searchable on our website. You 797 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,440 Speaker 1: can also google the name of the episode in the 798 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,720 Speaker 1: words myssed in history and that'll bring stuff up. Um. 799 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: And we have an archive page that lists every single episode, 800 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,480 Speaker 1: which is the thing I turned to you a lot, 801 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: uh to to get the links to episodes when folks ask, Yeah, 802 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: so stuff is easily searchable, you can find it, especially 803 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,240 Speaker 1: like I said, now that it's got more robust tagging 804 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 1: that will allow easier finding of things. Yeah. We are 805 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: always always adding to that also, um so yeah. Yeah. 806 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,600 Speaker 1: So the good news d is that we've answered your 807 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,719 Speaker 1: requests in the past with a time machine. Yeah. Completely. 808 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,480 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, you could 809 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,440 Speaker 1: do so at History podcast at how Stuff Works dot com. 810 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 1: You can also find us across the spectrum of social 811 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,040 Speaker 1: media as missed in History, and you can ask questions 812 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,560 Speaker 1: or or submit requests that way. You can visit us 813 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: at our website, which is missed in History dot com. 814 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: That's when we were just talking about being searchable, uh, 815 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: You can also visit our parents site, which is how 816 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and type in almost anything you're 817 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 1: curious to learn about in the search bar and you 818 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: will get undoubtedly a wealth of information. So come and 819 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: visit us at Miston history dot com, where we have 820 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: episodes of every show ever, as well as show notes, 821 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,759 Speaker 1: which now Tracy mentioned earlier are consolidated as part of 822 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: the show page. They're no longer two separate pages, uh 823 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,479 Speaker 1: and UH. You can visit our parent site, how stuff 824 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 825 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: other topics. Is that how stuff works dot com.