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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And today on the podcast, we're going to be beginning

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Speaker 3: a look at parrotfish or parrot fishes. This is one

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Speaker 3: of those topics that literally just started with me looking

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Speaker 3: at a picture. I was staring at a picture of

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Speaker 3: a bizarre, goofy, goofy appearing animal and thinking I want

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Speaker 3: to know more about this critter, and then discovering that, indeed,

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Speaker 3: this organism is a peculiar and fascinating story, and there

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Speaker 3: is so much more to it than you might guess

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Speaker 3: just by looking at it at its strange beak or

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Speaker 3: toothy mouth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, parrotfish are pretty fascinating. I've snorkeled among the parrotfish

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Speaker 2: many times and can a test that they are. They're

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Speaker 2: curiously fish, They're pleasure to watch, They're often very colorful.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to throw in more of my observations

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Speaker 2: as we proceed. But I think, on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: in coral reef environments, where I've done most of my snorkeling,

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Speaker 2: and where a lot of snorkeling takes place. They can

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Speaker 2: actually be easy to take for granted because they're generally

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Speaker 2: around in significant numbers that these environments. Often these are

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Speaker 2: protected reefs that I've been to, they're not particularly shy,

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Speaker 2: They're easily found in shallow water, so you know, oftentimes

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with like reef environments that are either very

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Speaker 2: accessible just from the shore or just a very short

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Speaker 2: boat ride sort of a situation. So in a way,

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Speaker 2: it's easy to take them for granted because they're there,

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Speaker 2: you see them, and then you end up focusing a

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Speaker 2: lot more of your attention looking for some of the

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Speaker 2: harder to find organisms that are going to live in

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Speaker 2: these reef environments. So it's actually a great opportunity to

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Speaker 2: stop and focus on this remarkable fish that I honestly

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Speaker 2: had never really thought about devoting a whole episode or

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Speaker 2: series of episodes too. But there's more than enough to

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Speaker 2: talk about.

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Speaker 3: I've never snorkeled and seen them in person, so I'm

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Speaker 3: envious of this experience and maybe I will someday. I

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Speaker 3: look forward to that. But I've seen video and in

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Speaker 3: some cases that there's almost a feeling of like bees

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Speaker 3: buzzing around a shrub that's covered in flowers. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just kind of the general gentle grazing activity of

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Speaker 3: some animals surrounding a plant like structure, but in this

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Speaker 3: case it's the big skeleton of stony corals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the grazing observation is key, and it's something that

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Speaker 2: has long been observed for these creatures, as we'll discuss.

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Speaker 2: You know, going back into ancient times, even when we

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Speaker 2: didn't have snorkelers as we think of them today, you

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Speaker 2: still had individuals fishing in shallow environments, sometimes fishing for

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Speaker 2: the parrotfish in question, and observing that, hey, these creatures

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Speaker 2: appear to be grazing, unlike most of the fish we

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Speaker 2: are observing.

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Speaker 3: So parrotfish are not one species, but a larger group

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Speaker 3: of fish, containing about ninety something individual species. I've seen

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Speaker 3: different estimates on the numbers. I think it's older ones

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Speaker 3: that say maybe like eighty species, others say closer to

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Speaker 3: one hundred, but I think ninety something is about right.

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Speaker 3: They range broadly in terms of size and appearance. In fact,

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Speaker 3: they range broadly in terms of appearance even within a species,

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Speaker 3: as we'll get to maybe in this part or maybe later,

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Speaker 3: but some adult parrotfish are less than a foot in length,

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Speaker 3: and some of the largest are almost four feet or

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Speaker 3: about one point two meters in length, so they can

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Speaker 3: range from medium small to quite large. These fish are

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Speaker 3: sometimes taxonomized as a family called Scarid and in other

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Speaker 3: cases regarded as a subfamily of Labyridy, which are commonly

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Speaker 3: known as the rasses. I think you can see some

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Speaker 3: morphological similarities with the fish called rasses, kind of the

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Speaker 3: way they swim. These they're pectoral fins and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: But a characteristic com into many parrotfishes is that they

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Speaker 3: tend to live around coral reefs, especially in the tropics.

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Speaker 2: I also want to throw in there that there are

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Speaker 2: occasionally fish that are just sort of commonly called a

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Speaker 2: parrotfish or informally called a parrotfish, that are not parrotfish,

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Speaker 2: mainly the blood red parrot chick lid, which apparently is

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Speaker 2: a popular aquarium species. This is not actually related to

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Speaker 2: proper parrotfish that we're going to be talking about here today.

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Speaker 2: And I've also seen some some fossil evidence that is

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Speaker 2: sometimes categorized as a parrotfish in a way that I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure actually lines up with what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 2: But if you've seen a picture of a parrotfish, proper parrotfish, indeed,

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Speaker 2: go ahead and look one up if you're in a

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Speaker 2: position to do so. I think it's hard to miss

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about. These are very recognizable fish, though

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Speaker 2: again they do very greatly in coloration.

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Speaker 3: Size, that's right, Yeah, So if you look up pictures

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Speaker 3: of them, you'll see that they're often kind of elongated

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Speaker 3: in body. They have different shapes. Some are more kind

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Speaker 3: of that elongated oval shape and others are blunter in

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Speaker 3: the front with like blunt heads. They're, in fact, are

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Speaker 3: parrotfish called like the blunt head pair of parrotfish or

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Speaker 3: the steep head parrotfish. The coloration you'll see on them

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Speaker 3: depends on some facts about them and not just their species.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes they have quite bright patterns of almost neon color,

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Speaker 3: surprising colors to see in nature, very you know, tropical

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Speaker 3: kind of color signals. There's one picture I kept seeing

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Speaker 3: where the fish had a color pattern that reminded me

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Speaker 3: of the jazz design from paper cups in the nineties.

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Speaker 3: But if you also threw some hot pink in there,

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Speaker 3: so there's a lot to take in when you look

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Speaker 3: at a parrot fish. But before you notice any of that,

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Speaker 3: but you know, the head shape, the body shape, the

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Speaker 3: coloration patterns, what you will probably notice first about any

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Speaker 3: given parrotfish is the mouth. I mean, look at these chompers,

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Speaker 3: rob I've included just several pictures. I know you've seen

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Speaker 3: them in person, so your experience of the teeth the

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Speaker 3: beak is probably more direct and visceral and profound even

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Speaker 3: than mine. But I was just looking at these pictures

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Speaker 3: for quite a while the other day, and my god,

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Speaker 3: these beaks, these mouths, it's it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, their mouths are quite fascinating in some of

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Speaker 2: the photos. Yeah, they can actually look a little intimidating, though,

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Speaker 2: I would say, based on the species that I've primarily

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Speaker 2: been exposed to in Hawaii and the Caribbean, they tend

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Speaker 2: to look more silly than threatening. But they're definitely very

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Speaker 2: cool looking, not taking anything away from that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I guess it varies from species to species.

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Speaker 3: So parrotfish have these rows of fused teeth on the

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Speaker 3: outside of their jaws, which, in some cases, as the

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Speaker 3: name implies, look very very similar to the beak of

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Speaker 3: a parrot. It can look like a bird's beak, but

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Speaker 3: in other cases these fused rows of teeth look like

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Speaker 3: jagged monster jaws, sort of like a horseshoe shaped ceramic

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Speaker 3: saw blade. But in other cases still they are like

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Speaker 3: a big goofy cartoon overbite, like Alfred y Newman's mouth

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Speaker 3: got hit with the radiation from the amazing colossal Man.

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Speaker 2: Now I want to throw in one more note here

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Speaker 2: about species classifications coloration. It is worth noting that with

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Speaker 2: parrotfish that classifications and naming have long proof challenging because

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Speaker 2: they tend to show different colorizations depending on an individual's

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Speaker 2: age and sex. So, for examples pointed out by the

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Speaker 2: Waikiki Aquarium, the spectacled parrotfish is reddish brown when it's

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Speaker 2: a juvenile, then it develops a pale tail spot when

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Speaker 2: it becomes a reproductive female, and then develops bright blue

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Speaker 2: green coloration with pink markings when it becomes male. So

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Speaker 2: you can imagine a lot of the early confusion at

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Speaker 2: figuring out, well, what is a different species of parrotfish?

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Speaker 2: And you will have multiple species of parrotfish in a

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Speaker 2: given region, and then what is just parrotfish are the

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Speaker 2: same species that's just in a different phase of its life.

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Speaker 3: Cycle, that's right. In fact, I was even reading, like

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Speaker 3: some blog posts by marine biologists who had worked with

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Speaker 3: these animals firsthand, talking about just how difficult it was

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Speaker 3: sometimes to identify these fish because of all the variation

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Speaker 3: even within species. But to come back to the main attraction,

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Speaker 3: the teeth, the beaks. The crazy thing is, as much

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Speaker 3: as these look like biting teeth in some cases, in

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Speaker 3: reality they are scraping teeth. Because parrotfish are primarily herbivores

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Speaker 3: for the most part, they do not eat by swimming

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Speaker 3: around biting semi circular chunks out of other fish, as

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Speaker 3: you might imagine just looking at their mouths. They mostly

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Speaker 3: eat by grazing along the hard surfaces of coral reefs,

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Speaker 3: scraping away algae and soft bits of coral and other

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Speaker 3: bits of organic matter along with some hard bits of

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Speaker 3: the coral skeletons with their teeth. So that's what the

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Speaker 3: teeth are for. These are for grazing. These are the

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Speaker 3: life of a herbivore, not the life of a predator.

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Speaker 2: Now, of course, as this we'll be discussing here, Coral,

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Speaker 2: of course is hard matter, and one of the crazy

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Speaker 2: things about snorkeling with parrotfish is that you don't just

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Speaker 2: get to watch them, you get to listen to them.

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Speaker 2: So as they feast on the algae that's growing on

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Speaker 2: the coral, they're scraping the coral and it's producing a

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Speaker 2: sound in the snorkeler's ear that I would compare to

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Speaker 2: kind of a static paper crunching or even the snap

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Speaker 2: crackle crunch of rice crispies and milk. It's one of

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Speaker 2: those things when when you first explore. When I first

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Speaker 2: experienced it, I wasn't exactly sure what I was listening to,

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Speaker 2: because it's kind of like, is there something in my

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Speaker 2: ear and it's just just the sound of the ocean

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Speaker 2: and so forth. But no, it it becomes clear, and

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Speaker 2: it's often pointed out to one that yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: the sound of these the parrotfish feeding, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: it's pretty remarkable. So you listen to them, you watch them,

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Speaker 2: and they just become part of the background sound escape

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Speaker 2: to your snortling.

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Speaker 3: It's a funny other comparison to bees almost, you know,

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Speaker 3: the way the buzzing of a bee just kind of

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Speaker 3: like blends in becomes the ambient sound of a landscape.

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Speaker 3: The tooth and beak scraping on coral sound produced by

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Speaker 3: these animals is maybe comparable to the buzzing of bees.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also consistent, like that's the other thing.

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Speaker 2: They're constantly grazing, and therefore it is a constant soundtrack.

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Speaker 2: It's not like say the occasional sound of a woodpecker

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Speaker 2: in a forest, Like it's just NonStop. So it's just

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Speaker 2: in the background, and you could easily if you didn't

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Speaker 2: know what you were listening to, you might not realize

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Speaker 2: that this is the sound of organisms feeding.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think there were probably other people out there

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Speaker 3: like me, Rob. I don't know if you've fall into

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Speaker 3: this category of people whose minds are easily captured and

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Speaker 3: revolted by just imagining kind of tooth trauma. Like I

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Speaker 3: very easily can like get a shiver across my whole

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Speaker 3: body when I imagine, say, trying to bite down on

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Speaker 3: a rock. And that is what you have to constantly

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Speaker 3: imagine when you're thinking about these animals. It's not technically

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Speaker 3: a rock, though I guess in some cases they do

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Speaker 3: scrape rocks as well, but most often it's going to

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Speaker 3: be like a rock. It will be the skeletons of

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Speaker 3: stony corals. But can you just imagine that, as painful

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Speaker 3: as it might be, imagine having to live by like seeing,

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Speaker 3: you know, a moss covered rock and thinking, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to use my front teeth to scrape that bad boy clean,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to bite off some chunks of the

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Speaker 3: rock as I'm getting the moss off of it. Delicious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it can be a bit squeamish. It can

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Speaker 2: make one a bit squamish sometimes imagining these other dental

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Speaker 2: scenarios in the natural world.

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Speaker 3: So I want to talk a bit more late or

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Speaker 3: about how parrotfish eat and get their nutrition, and a

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Speaker 3: bit more about their teeth. But before we do that, Rob,

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Speaker 3: I think you've found some interesting stuff about writings on

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Speaker 3: parrotfish from the ancient world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I did. And this was a whole avenue that

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Speaker 2: I had not been down. I had no idea this

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Speaker 2: was a thing. So again, given that species of parrotfish

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Speaker 2: are found around the world, and that they can frequently

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Speaker 2: be found in shallow water, and that they have traditionally

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Speaker 2: been caught for culinary purposes for food, it should come

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Speaker 2: as no surprise that these fish were known to people

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Speaker 2: of the ancient world. You know, even in times when

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Speaker 2: folks didn't have access to the underwater world in any

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Speaker 2: way comparable to what we have today, they still knew

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Speaker 2: what these fish were, and in some cases they had

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Speaker 2: some rather insightful ideas about what they were doing. In

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Speaker 2: other cases, there are some very long standing misconceptions about

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Speaker 2: what parrotfish do. So in this we're going to actually

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Speaker 2: bring up the work of our dear old friend Roman

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Speaker 2: historian Plenty of the Elder, who is one of several

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Speaker 2: sources of antiquity that discusses the parrot fish, you know,

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Speaker 2: and of course there's a lot of shared content and

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Speaker 2: so forth going on. The fish would have been known

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Speaker 2: as the scaris. This is of course, now where we

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Speaker 2: get the name of the genus for parrotfish, and we

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Speaker 2: might assume that in particular we're dealing with discussions of

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Speaker 2: the Mediterranean parrotfish, though based on what I was reading,

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Speaker 2: also you had like the red sea parrotfish that was

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Speaker 2: also known to various cultures of antiquity. So Plenty of

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Speaker 2: the Elder in the Natural History seventy nine CE rites

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Speaker 2: at the present day the first place, and this is

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Speaker 2: he's speaking from a culinary perspective here. First place at

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Speaker 2: the Roman table is given to the scas the only

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Speaker 2: fish that is said to ruminate and to feed on grass,

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Speaker 2: and not on other fish commonly found in the Carpathian Sea,

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Speaker 2: and never of its own accord passes lectum a promontory

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Speaker 2: of trois now. Nineteenth century naturalist George Cuvier and his

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Speaker 2: annotations to Plenty points out again that the first place

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Speaker 2: here is in reference to the Roman dinner table, where

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Speaker 2: this fish was celebrated for several attributed characteristics that I'll

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Speaker 2: get to in a minute, and was also typically quote

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Speaker 2: salted with the intestines in it. M m okay, and

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Speaker 2: some Roman authors actually absolutely insisted that you do not

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Speaker 2: eat this fish without the intestines included. It's just too

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Speaker 2: delicious this way.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy. So like, are you saying they would eat

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Speaker 3: the intestines directly or it's like you got to leave

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Speaker 3: the intestines in there to give the meat some flavor.

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Speaker 2: You've got to leave them in Yeah, okay. And I

259
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Speaker 2: know they were often in many cultures salted and then traded,

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Speaker 2: So I'm offhand, I'm not entirely sure if this is

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Speaker 2: a deaf in case of we're talking about salted parrotfish

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Speaker 2: with the intestines still in, or some other form of

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Speaker 2: preparing them. But at any right, they really liked it.

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Speaker 2: There are also Roman references to eating parrotfish livers as.

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Speaker 3: A delicacy, so all the value here is just for

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Speaker 3: their flesh as food. This is a first place distinction

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Speaker 3: that would probably not be so flattering to the fish itself.

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Speaker 2: Right right, And the Romans weren't alone in appreciating eating parrotfishes.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to some other far flowing examples. Plenty of

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Speaker 2: humans have eaten parrotfish and still eat parrotfish. The Greeks

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Speaker 2: love them. There's some I think twenty species of Mediterranean parrotfish. Again,

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Speaker 2: there's the red sea parrotfish, considered a delicacy in antiquity.

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Speaker 2: And in both of these cases I believe they were

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Speaker 2: often dried and then widely traded. I've read that, in fact,

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Speaker 2: they were easily dried. I'm not sure about the particulars

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Speaker 2: of that, but but I I'll take the word on

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Speaker 2: it that, Okay, this is a fish that is easier

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Speaker 2: to dry and prepare and then trade across distances. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to eat it fresh by the seaside. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: it was celebrated at the Roman table, not just because

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Speaker 2: you ate it salted and with the guts in it,

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Speaker 2: but also for several reasons, according to Cuvier. And I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of these seem to get down to

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Speaker 2: the fact that I'm assuming the Romans liked a great

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Speaker 2: story at the table. You know, it's not just about

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Speaker 2: what the fish smells like, taste like, looks like on

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Speaker 2: the plate, but also what is the story of it,

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Speaker 2: what ideas are wrapped up in this particular organism. So

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Speaker 2: hear that first of all, it was thought to be

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Speaker 2: the only ruminating fish.

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Speaker 3: So wait, does that mean ruminating as in like chewing

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Speaker 3: the cud like a cow or a sheep.

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Speaker 2: Yes, though basically I think what this comes down. First

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Speaker 2: of all, they're not truly chewing the cut. They're not

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Speaker 2: truly ruminating, you know, they're not chewing something that is

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Speaker 2: previously been chewed and swallowed. They are grazing like a cow.

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Speaker 2: And I think it has to do with observations of

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Speaker 2: these animals grazing, and it's like, oh, look, they're like

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Speaker 2: a cow. They're ruminating. But still the idea that they're

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Speaker 2: ruminating the idea that they're chewing their cut continues to

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Speaker 2: be mentioned all through antiquity on all the way up

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Speaker 2: through like medieval besty areas, though some voices such as

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Speaker 2: Saint Ambrose in the fourth century said that did point

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Speaker 2: out the chud. The cud chewing thing is not accurate,

305
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Speaker 2: that's not what they're doing. So but still a lot

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Speaker 2: of misinformation about these fish persisted for a very long

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Speaker 2: time now. As Aristotle also observed in History of Animals,

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Speaker 2: the parrettfish were thought to be vegetarians, and indeed, I

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Speaker 2: guess you could say they're essentially herbivores. Many sources will

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Speaker 2: classify them as such, but also note that they're maybe

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Speaker 2: more more correct to say that they're algavores. But still, well,

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Speaker 2: ancient people observe that these fish are not eating in

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Speaker 2: the same way that other fish are.

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Speaker 3: Wow, this is something I feel like I should know

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Speaker 3: the answer to, but I actually don't. What is it called?

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Speaker 3: If you mostly eat you know, algae or plant things

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Speaker 3: that are like plants, plants, or types of bacteria microorganisms,

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Speaker 3: but sometimes you eat animals, but the animals are not

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Speaker 3: like you know, large moving animals, they're you know, basically

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Speaker 3: small invertebrate animals like corals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you would be some sort of a

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Speaker 2: coral war or something to that effect, right, But on

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Speaker 2: a number of the different fish databases that I was

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Speaker 2: looking at, yeah, sometimes they'll say herbivore, sometimes they'll say

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Speaker 2: herbivore algivore, and then sometimes there's kind of an omnivore

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Speaker 2: note as well. I guess there's always a margin of error,

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Speaker 2: as we've discussed here, like even things like a cow,

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Speaker 2: which we think of is kind of a pure herbivore.

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Speaker 2: There are examples, as we've discussed on the show in

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Speaker 2: the past, where they have been observed to if meat

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Speaker 2: is available, they might eat set meat.

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Speaker 3: But it is true that in the cases where parrotfish

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Speaker 3: are eating animals, they're not generally like chasing after other

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Speaker 3: fish and eating them or something. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: that might happen in some particular case, but that's not

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Speaker 3: generally what parrotfish do. They're mostly going to be eating algae,

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Speaker 3: and then if they're eating animals, they're like marine invertebrate animals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I mean we can, I think basically say

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Speaker 2: that ancient people were correct in this judgment. Now, and

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Speaker 2: I guess maybe it made the story at the dinner

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Speaker 2: table a little more interesting. They're like, this is the

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Speaker 2: cow of the sea, that sort of thing. Now, the

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Speaker 2: third attribute that Kuvia mentions is quote because it had

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Speaker 2: the faculty of producing a sound. Now, perhaps I'm not

345
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Speaker 2: completely understanding Kuvier's point here, but I guess this is

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Speaker 2: referring to that constant chewing sound, that constant grazing sound

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Speaker 2: that one hears if your head is below water with

348
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Speaker 2: the fish. And again, this is not something that I

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Speaker 2: would think actually impacts one's enjoyment of dinner. But again,

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Speaker 2: I guess they liked a good story.

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Speaker 3: You know, sometimes people they say they want their steak

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Speaker 3: rare by saying I want it still mooing. It's a

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Speaker 3: kind of a gruesome way to ask for it, But

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Speaker 3: people do say that. Can you say that, like, I

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Speaker 3: want my parrotfish steak rare, I want it still scraping.

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Speaker 2: I guess. So the fourth attribute that he mentions is

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Speaker 2: quote for its salacious propensities numbers being taken by means

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Speaker 2: of a female attached to a string. This, I guess

359
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 2: alluding to a supposed method of catching them. And I

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Speaker 2: suppose the Romans just like randy food, though I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure it was actually considered an afrodisiac, because I didn't

362
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Speaker 2: see it listed in another source I was looking at

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Speaker 2: that had to do with various foods of the Romans

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Speaker 2: did believe were aphrodisiacs.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh okay.

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Speaker 2: And then, fifthly for its quote remarkable sagacity and affording

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Speaker 2: assistance to another when taken in the net.

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Speaker 3: Huh Now what would that mean?

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Speaker 2: So this is referring to something that is that that

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Speaker 2: pops up in various old sources as well, and again

371
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Speaker 2: continues to persist for centuries. May be particularly referring to

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Speaker 2: a passage in Ovid. Ovid has the following passage quote,

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Speaker 2: The scaris is caught by a stratagem beneath the waves,

374
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Speaker 2: and at length dreads the bait. Fraught with treachery, it

375
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Speaker 2: dares not strike the osres. This refers to a reed

376
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Speaker 2: basket with an effort of its head, but turning away

377
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Speaker 2: as it loosens the twigs with frequent blows of its tail,

378
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Speaker 2: it makes its passage and escapes safely into the deep. Moreover,

379
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Speaker 2: if perchance any kind scars swimming behind sees it struggling

380
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Speaker 2: with the osures he takes hold of its tail in

381
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Speaker 2: his mouth and it is thus turned away and so

382
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Speaker 2: it makes its escape.

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Speaker 3: So, okay, we have.

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Speaker 2: This idea that these fish, these parrotfish are are essentially

385
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Speaker 2: I don't think you social would be the term, but

386
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Speaker 2: they are. They help each other out. They're capable of

387
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: some form of altruism where if they see another one

388
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Speaker 2: of their kind stuck in one of these wicker basket traps,

389
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Speaker 2: they will try and help them out.

390
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Speaker 3: Huh.

391
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Speaker 2: And so this idea ends up sticking around for against

392
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Speaker 2: centuries and centuries. The idea that the scarce or parrotfish

393
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Speaker 2: is not only a cud chewing herbivore of the sea,

394
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Speaker 2: but also a friendly fish that looks out for it's fellows.

395
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Speaker 3: Well, that's fascinating, But I wonder what would this belief

396
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 3: about their friendly behavior be based on. So the idea

397
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Speaker 3: is they help each other avoid traps or save each

398
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Speaker 3: other from traps. Is there any modern research on this?

399
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Speaker 2: So the main source I found on this, and this

400
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 2: is where I got turned onto the idea, was the

401
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 2: blog of Fishtories. It's like histories and fish combined. That's

402
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: fis ht o r I s dot net. It is

403
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 2: a blog maintained by Via hendricks On, information scientist and

404
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: historian of science. She discusses this whole weird scenario with

405
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: imagery of the parrotfish, because indeed there's there's there's imagery associated.

406
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Speaker 2: I included this illustration for here for you here Joe

407
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: from a munch latter later source. But uh, but but

408
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: she does point out that, based on what we can tell,

409
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: the fish are actually anything but friendly to each other

410
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Speaker 2: in these scenarios. Wicker baskets like this are still used

411
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Speaker 2: in some places to catch fish, she points out. But

412
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Speaker 2: she writes that the parrotfish have actually been observed too

413
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 2: violently attacked their fellow parrotfish that become caught in the

414
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: reeds of the fishing basket. So I don't I don't

415
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 2: know that there's really much evidence to back this up.

416
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Speaker 2: I also get to an example here in a bit

417
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: involving traditional Hawaiian techniques for catching parrotfish that also uses

418
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 2: a basket. Like the idea of being essentially that the

419
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: parrotfisher roaming around the corals feeding and they kind of

420
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: have these paths that they follow. They also tend to

421
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: sort of group together, and you may have like what

422
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: seems to be a leader of the pack, and if

423
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: you set up these baskets at the right time, you

424
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: can catch them, and you can end up catching a

425
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 2: bunch of them even and you can then release the

426
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: ones you don't want, make use of the ones you

427
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: want to harvest. So I don't know. On one level,

428
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: it seems like, Okay, you're ending up with an artificial

429
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 2: environment scenario here, where you're dealing essentially with captive fish

430
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: doing things in a captive environment and a high stakes

431
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 2: environment for them that they might not do otherwise. And

432
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 2: that may mean attacking each other that I guess could

433
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: also mean some sort of observational behavior, especially without the

434
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: aid of any kind of like snorkeling mask and so forth,

435
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: it might look like ones helping the others out. I'm

436
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: not sure, But still the idea becomes entrent, and the

437
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: image of the parrotfish helping each other escape from fishing

438
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: baskets ends up becoming a symbol of friendship. Oh yeah,

439
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: So this is something that she discusses at length in

440
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: another paper. This is something that published in Emblems of

441
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: the Natural World from twenty fifteen Ichthyology and Emblematics in

442
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: Conrad Gesner's Historia Piscium and Joham Kamarius's Kamarus the Youngers

443
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: Simbola at Emblemata. She points out that Plenty was one

444
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 2: of the key sources for this misconception, but plenty of

445
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: others sources in the ancient world echoed at Plutarch chimes

446
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: in on it, and so some sources identified this as

447
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: a sign of intelligence in the parrotfish, while other fishes

448
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: were often held up as examples of a lack of

449
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 2: intelligence in fish, such as then Conrad Guestner's sixteenth century

450
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 2: work Historia Animalium, the mackerel was held up as a

451
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 2: stupid fish.

452
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: How do you get that distinction as a fish? I

453
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 3: don't know.

454
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe they just it's probably a little bit unfair,

455
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: right in some cases the macvil looks to and you're

456
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: basing everything on the human perspective and human expectations of

457
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: what an animal's intelligence is, you know, whereas ultimately you

458
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: can I think you can approach these scenarios by saying, well,

459
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: the yeah, the parrotfish is in a way a genius.

460
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 2: It's as smart as it needs to be to do

461
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: the things that it does.

462
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 3: Well. Actually, you know what I wonder if some of

463
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 3: this I have no idea if it applies in this case,

464
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: but I wonder if some general ideas about smartfish versus

465
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: dumbfish come just from the experience of fishing for different

466
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 3: types of fish, because I know, you know, and people

467
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 3: who are into fishing right in and let us know

468
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 3: if this matches your experience. In my experience, people who

469
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: like to fish will like say that a fish that

470
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: is harder to catch is a smart fish, and one

471
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: that's easier to catches like a dumbfish. And I don't

472
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 3: know if intelligence actually has anything to do with how

473
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 3: easy they are to catch or not. You know, might

474
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: just have to do with like ingrained behavioral patterns, someone

475
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: responding distress or something.

476
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's kind of curious because it sounds

477
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: like if you have the right traps for it, catching

478
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: parrotfish is generally not considered super challenging. So but you know,

479
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 2: we have this other narrative that emerges again that they're

480
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 2: helping each other and that they can sort of help

481
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: each other escape from these traps and so forth. Now

482
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 2: I mentioned Hawaiian traditions because again, you have parrotfish all

483
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: over and you do have them in the Hawaiian Islands,

484
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: and in Hawaii, the parrotfish was historically known in the

485
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: Hawaiian language as uhu. The fish are prominent there and

486
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 2: they were eaten by Hawaiians Traditionally. There's a saying in Hawaiian,

487
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: according to the online Hawaiian dictionary Ulucal, that translates to

488
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: my craving makes my mouth water for the parrotfish passing

489
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: before my eyes. The Hawaii Coral Reef Network points out

490
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: that not only were they a delicacy, but their liver

491
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: was especially favored. So again, you know, you know, other

492
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: side of the world you still have people eating parrotfish

493
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 2: and also realizing that the liver is apparently really good.

494
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: Interesting now, the fish itself, to the Hawaiians, had connotations

495
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: of physical beauty, as in one's love interest, but also

496
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: in terms of a desirable bachelor. There was also apparently

497
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: a tradition that held that a fisherman could observe the

498
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: behavior of a parrotfish and it would serve as a

499
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: kind of portent as to what was going on back home.

500
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: So like, you know, certain things the parrotfish was doing.

501
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, everything's cool. Back of the house. Other

502
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: things the parrotfish might be doing. It's like you need

503
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: to go back and check on your wife, that sort

504
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: of thing. Now, the parrotfish who also factors into one

505
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: of the stories of a legendary figure in Hawaiian mythology.

506
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: And I could not find a like a solid pronunciation

507
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: guide for this name, So I hope I'm saying it

508
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: somewhere close to correctly. In my apologies if I'm not

509
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: punia kaya. This is a in these stories, he's a

510
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: He's a dashing young man who one day leaves his parents'

511
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: house because he feels this call of the ocean. He

512
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: wants to go fishing, and so he catches this young,

513
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: supernatural fish the first ooh, and it makes it his pet,

514
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: and then he releases it where it becomes the parent

515
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: of all fish. And so afterwards he's able to go

516
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: call upon the fish to deliver fellow fish to the fisherman.

517
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 3: Hmmm.

518
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading more about this in Native Use

519
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: of Fish in Hawaii by Margaret Titcomb, and the author

520
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: makes a connection to the manner in which parrotfish move

521
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: along in a school, often single file, seemingly led by

522
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: a leader. So that, yeah, this special trap was devised

523
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: by the early Hawaiians for use during a particular season.

524
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: The trap allowed them to allow the fish to file

525
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: into the trap led by the leader, but then they're

526
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: unable to escape, and they keep the trap in use

527
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: during the May June July season, collect enough fish for

528
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: personal use, and then release the rest, though another source

529
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: I've looked at seems to indicate that excess fish might

530
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: have been harvested to feed pigs and dogs, So I

531
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: don't know. There may be some variety in the practice,

532
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: or there might be a misconception on one side or

533
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: the other, but at any rate, this is how they

534
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: caught them, and I guess by virtue of that leader

535
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: fish leads into this idea that there's kind of like

536
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: a fish that is a friend of the people that

537
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: will help you catch more.

538
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: Fish, Like it's the leader of the school is deliberately

539
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: leading them into the trap for you.

540
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, though not so much that it's like a trader fish,

541
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: but more than like it is this fish that a

542
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: like a legendary figure made a deal that's sort of yeah.

543
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, this was a new one to me as well.

544
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: I don't think i'd heard this in my previous trips

545
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: to Way, so and there may be some more interesting

546
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: parafish mythologies out there that I'll have to turn up

547
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: for the next episode.

548
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: That's really interesting. I like it. As I promised earlier,

549
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 3: I wanted to come back and talk a bit more

550
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: about how parrotfish eat and a little bit about the

551
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 3: equipment they used to do it and what happens after

552
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: they do it, after they eat. So one source I

553
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: was looking at here is a chapter in the Biology

554
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: of parrot Fishes by CRC Press twenty eighteen. And this

555
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: chapter was by Peter C. Wainwright and Samantha A. Price.

556
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: It's called Innovation and Diversity of the Feeding Mechanism in

557
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: parrot Fishes. And I'll probably come back to this in

558
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: subsequent episodes as well. But about the authors, Peter C.

559
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: Wainwright is a biologist at UC Davis and Samantha A.

560
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: Price is a biologist at Clemson. And so the author

561
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: is here say that how parrotfishes eat. To the various

562
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: species of parrotfish, how they eat is quote one of

563
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 3: the fundamental ecological processes in coral reef ecosystems. So when

564
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: you think about parrotfish, you shouldn't just think of them

565
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: as something you occasionally see in a coral reef, but

566
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: rather they are an integral part of how coral reef

567
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 3: ecosystems work, and kind of the whole ecosystem doesn't really

568
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 3: work without them. Now, as we mentioned earlier, the feeding

569
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: process of parrotfish involves a lot of scraping and biting

570
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: into hard stony materials. Parrotfishes swim around coral reefs using

571
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: their teeth to scrape edible stuff off the outside of coral,

572
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: and they break off some coral and bring it along

573
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: with them in the process. Now, what is that edible

574
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 3: stuff on the outside of the coral. The authors say

575
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: that it includes primarily algae. Algae is a big part,

576
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 3: but also detritis, and in a marine context this usually

577
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: means dead organic material, so parts of dead organisms, fecal matter,

578
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 3: all that yummy stuff. Sometimes it will include bacteria, little

579
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: colonies of bacteria. And then they just say, quote a

580
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: wide range of encrusting invertebrates, so all kinds of little

581
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: invertebrate animals that could be found on a coral reef.

582
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: This might include coral polyps themselves, and it might also

583
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: include things like sponges. Now, a couple of sources I

584
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 3: was looking at sort of classified several different types of

585
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: parrotfish feeding strategies, and the main variation here seemed to

586
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: be how deep the parrotfish would cut into the stony

587
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: parts of the coral. So you might have some that

588
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: are referred to more as browsers or grazers that tend

589
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 3: to typically just take the soft parts off the surface

590
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: of the coral. You've got scrapers which scrape the coral

591
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: a little harder and get some of what underneath. And

592
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: then you've got what are called excavators, which are really

593
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: just taking chunks out of the hard stuff. So the

594
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 3: parrotfishes swim along on the reef, scraping the stuff off

595
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 3: with their outer teeth or excavating bits of it and

596
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: inevitably leaving scars on the rock or the coral skeletons

597
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: as they go. And then all of this mixture of

598
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 3: both hard and soft parts goes into the mouth, where

599
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 3: it is subjected to a second obstacle, which is the

600
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: trial of the inner jaws. Because parrotfishes don't only have

601
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 3: these fascinating outer teeth, they have a second set of

602
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: teeth at the back of their mouth. Known as the

603
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: phyryngeal jaw. Now you might have read about phyngeal jaws

604
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 3: with respect to other animals that have them. A number

605
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 3: of fish and creatures that live in the sea have them,

606
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: and a well known example is the more eel.

607
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, And of course, you know, those of

608
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: you who've watched any amount of science fiction, you might

609
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: also note that very angel jaws from in the world

610
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: of fictional monsters, we do have, of course, the alien xenomorph,

611
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: at least the main morph of the creature that we

612
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 2: see in those films where we see this inner jaw

613
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 2: that functions as both a feeding mechanism and a puncturing weapon,

614
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: while elsewhere in the alien universe we see other morphs,

615
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 2: such as the deacon and the neo morph that boast

616
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: extendable inner jaws rather than a secondary set of jaws.

617
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, the generally you often see some like comparative

618
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: biology write ups, and I think I've done right up

619
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: to this in this nature in the past where when

620
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: you're you're comparing xenomorph physiology to the natural world. The

621
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: more a eel is like a prime stopping point of comparison.

622
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 3: Now, the exact design of the phyngeal jaw in the

623
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 3: xenomorph is a little bit extra like. I'm not aware

624
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: of any examples in the in the natural world where

625
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: like the inner jaw comes out of the mouth and

626
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: stabs like a spear, like bites through the torso of

627
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 3: a prey animal. The inner jaws in the cases I'm

628
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 3: aware of, tend to stay mostly within the outer jaws,

629
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: but they do do something fascinating and perhaps to some horrifying.

630
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: So in the case of the more a eel, which

631
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 3: is a predator, the fyringial jaw helps the eel capture

632
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 3: and swallow large live prey animals without allowing them to escape.

633
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: So the eel first bites the prey with its regular

634
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: outer jaws. These are the jaws you'd see, you know,

635
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 3: with the teeth. They have backward curving teeth, and those

636
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 3: the orientation of the teeth. The backward curving nature of

637
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: them helps them keep the prey in place without allowing

638
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: it to back out and escape. And then while the

639
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: eel is holding the prey in place with these outer jaws,

640
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: the inner jaws reach up from out of the eel's

641
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: throat to bite the animal and pull it further inside

642
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: the mouth and down into the esophagus. So it's a

643
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 3: two step capture and conveyance mechanism. Now, just to stick

644
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 3: with the morey eel in a sidebar for a second.

645
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: I got interested in this. The evolutionary reasoning for this

646
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: is an interesting question. Apparently, most predatory fish rely in

647
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 3: large part on suction to capture and swallow their prey.

648
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: So these other fish use their muscles to rapidly expand

649
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 3: the mouth through the throat cavity. And so when it

650
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: expands like this, it creates a negative pressure and it

651
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: sucks in water from outside the mouth, including the prey

652
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 3: in that water. And this suction mechanism can either be

653
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 3: the action that pulls the prey into the mouth in

654
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 3: the first place, or can also be that after a

655
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 3: predatory fish bites the prey with its jaws, the suction

656
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: mechanism then pulls the prey farther into the mouth and

657
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: down into the esophagus.

658
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, scorpionfish is a great example of this, and you

659
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 2: can find some great video footage of this where it's

660
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: an ambush press down there, hidden on the floor of

661
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: the sea, and then as its prey comes by, it

662
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: just kind of goes wolf and just rapidly sucks it

663
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: into its mouth and it's just gone like that, and

664
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: the scorpion fish is of course you'll note get very

665
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: robust looking, kind of frog ish looking, and that is

666
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: key here too, right.

667
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 3: So I was reading a two thousand and seven National

668
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 3: Science Foundation press release about research on moray eels published

669
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: in Nature that year, and the studies lead author, a

670
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: UC Davis scientist named Rita Meta, says that her study

671
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 3: found because of the way more eel bodies are shaped,

672
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: they're not able to generate much suction in the mouth cavity,

673
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: so instead they have this secondary set of jaws in

674
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 3: the throat. More eels are predators that often live in

675
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 3: coral reefs and they hide in little holes, gaps and

676
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: niches in the reef, and so a possible reason given

677
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: for this evolutionary difference why they have the fryngial jaws

678
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: instead of the suction mechanism is that by having pharyngeal jaws,

679
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: they can attack and swallow relatively large prey in tight,

680
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 3: confined little spaces where there would not be enough room

681
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: for them to expand the mouth or throat cavity to

682
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 3: create suction.

683
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: Fascinating. It makes perfect sense.

684
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: So that's an interesting idea. But I also think it's

685
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 3: an interesting parallel. You've got more eels and parrotfishes, which

686
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 3: are both coral reef dwellers and both have fryngial jaws,

687
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 3: but they use these inner jaws for totally different purposes. Again,

688
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 3: in the eel, it's to pull the prey down the

689
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: throat once it's in the mouth. Parrot fishes are again

690
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 3: not generally going to be chasing large live prey. They're

691
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: mostly herbivores, and they eat by scraping or gouging the

692
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 3: coral and getting stuff off the outside or in the

693
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: layers underneath the surface. This material that they scrape off

694
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 3: of rocks and coral, which mostly inclin ludes, algae and

695
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: other microbial organisms, but also dead organic matter and coral

696
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 3: skeleton bits, is pulled down into the pharyngeal teeth, where,

697
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: to quote Wainwright and Price, it is quote mixed with

698
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 3: mucus and ground to a fine slurry before being passed

699
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: to the intestines. And Rob I was just looking up

700
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: some photos of parrotfish pharyngeal teeth, and oh boy, what

701
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: what are we looking at?

702
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: Here.

703
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 3: These are some organs, like they're clearly specialized for grinding

704
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 3: down this mixture of hard and soft substances into a mucous,

705
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: lubricated slurry. But some of these pieces of parrotfish anatomy

706
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 3: look like a car transmission gear made out of bone.

707
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: Others look like a bone pine cone. It's it's interesting.

708
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does kind of look like interlocking

709
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: gear teeth. Yeah, it's crazy.

710
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: So the digestive system extracts nutrients from this lurry, and

711
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 3: then the parrotfish excretes what is left over, which is

712
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 3: a big part of which is sand. Because they're grinding

713
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: down this coral, they bite off and scrape off pieces

714
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 3: of coral, grind up that coral with the nightmare throat teeth,

715
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: and then they poop sand. So I've read it described

716
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 3: that if you swim around with these buddies, you will

717
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: see them just like letting out kind of poofs of

718
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 3: sand or blasting clouds of sand into the water column.

719
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, Like they're just they're kind of constantly

720
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: doing it. I mean, it makes sense. They're grazing. They're

721
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: kind of like goats, and they're kind of pooping like goats.

722
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: Except it's coming out in this kind of like puff

723
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: of sand, and I know you included some photos here

724
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: where it's like more than a puff. It looks like

725
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: they're crop dusting. It's quite impressive.

726
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 3: In fact, parrotfish poop so much sand. They are by

727
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 3: themselves a significant source of the bioeroosion of coral and

728
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 3: a significant source of fine grained white sand in certain environments,

729
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: as in, when you are walking along a beautiful white

730
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 3: sand beach on some tropical island, there is a very

731
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 3: good chance a large proportion of the sand under your

732
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 3: feet is parrotfish poop.

733
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: That's right. There beach creation machines, and some of the

734
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: estimates for individual sand creation are quite stunning.

735
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: Unbelievable to me actually, Like I had no idea about

736
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 3: this going in. So you might be thinking, yeah, how

737
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 3: much sand can can these fish really poop? Again, it

738
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 3: depends where you are. There are obviously other sand creation

739
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: mechanisms in the sea, so this is not the only one.

740
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: But in some places parrotfish are responsible for a lot

741
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: of the sand that's there. One example I came across

742
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: is a paper in the journal Geology from twenty fifteen

743
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: by pariet Al called linking reef ecology to island building.

744
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 3: Parrotfish identified as major producers for island building sediment in them.

745
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 3: And so again this is by Perry at All and

746
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 3: so the Maldives Archipelago. This is an island chain that

747
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: contains approximately twelve hundred individual reef islands, which are islands

748
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: that are made entirely out of sediment that is produced

749
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 3: from underwater coral reefs. So the primary reason these islands

750
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: exist is that there are coral reef ecosystems on an

751
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: underwater platform. Of course, the reefs themselves are mostly made

752
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: up of the calcium carbonate skeletons of stony coral polyps,

753
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: and over time these coral reefs decompose into sediments like

754
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 3: sand and gravel. Perry at all right quote, All coral

755
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 3: reef islands are inherently dependent on their surrounding reef habitats,

756
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 3: not only because they provide the foundations for island development,

757
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: but also because they are the primary production sites for

758
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 3: the sediments necessary to sustain island building growth and maintenance.

759
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 3: So without sediments from the coral reefs dec composing into

760
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: sand and gravel, you may not have an island here.

761
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: But the authors of this study say, before their research,

762
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: how exactly that sediment is produced from the coral reef

763
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 3: is poorly quantified, so they investigated they're looking at where

764
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 3: does the sediment come from, and they used the example

765
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: of Karu, which is an interior reef island in the Maldives.

766
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: They found that the area around this island produces about

767
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: six hundred and eighty five thousand kilograms of sediment per year,

768
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 3: about seventy five percent of which comes from a place

769
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 3: they called the outer reef flat. So if you look

770
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: at the island from above, you'll see the part that

771
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: rises above water and is forested and has plants and

772
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 3: all that, the beach surrounding it, and then there's sort

773
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: of an inner lagoon and then an inner reef ring

774
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 3: and an outer reef ring. So most of the sediment

775
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 3: is coming from that outer ring of coral reef environments

776
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 3: in the water. About seventy five percent of the sediment

777
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 3: comes from the outer reef flat. Now, within that outer reef,

778
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: which creates about seventy five percent of the island's yearly

779
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 3: supply of new sand, the authors discovered that more than

780
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: eighty five percent of the sand is produced by parrotfish.

781
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 3: And if you're curious what the second place was, the

782
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: runner up producer of reef sand in a distant second

783
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 3: place at about eight point eight percent. In the outer

784
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 3: reef is a type of macroalgy called halimata, which makes

785
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 3: like calcified body parts and then those get shed and

786
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: eventually decompose a breakdown into sand. But almost all of

787
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 3: it is coming from what the parrotfish excrete. So parrotfish

788
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 3: are continually defecating this island into existence, and they remain

789
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: critical for maintaining its existence the author's right quote. The

790
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 3: generation of sediments suitable for maintaining this reef island is

791
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 3: thus critically dependent on a narrow zone of high productivity reef,

792
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 3: but most especially on the maintenance of healthy parrotfish populations

793
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: that can convert reef framework to sand grade sediment, And

794
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: so the parrotfish are crucial for the health of island

795
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 3: environments like this. But this is not just true of

796
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: these tiny coral reef islands that are generated from coral

797
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 3: reef sediments, even on many other coasts and larger islands

798
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: where the island itself might be you know, have other

799
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 3: geological explanations like it's not just sand rising out of

800
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 3: the water. It might be a volcanic island, or the

801
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: coast of a continent or something. In places where there

802
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: are coral reefs, beaches in many cases are still largely

803
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 3: parrotfish lavatory constructions. A figure sighted in several reputable looking sources,

804
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 3: though I couldn't find the exact origin of it, is

805
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: that around seventy percent of the sand on the white

806
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 3: Sandy beaches of Hawaii is parrotfish excretion. It's hard to imagine,

807
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 3: like you're walking on a beach or even on a

808
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: whole island and to imagine it having a biological fish

809
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 3: digestive system origin of this kind.

810
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: I know, it's it's just it's crazy. It's one of

811
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: those mind blowing facts though that again, it gets pointed

812
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: out a lot when you are, you know, going to

813
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 2: these places and snorkeling, it becomes easy to sort of

814
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: take for granted and you have to sort of remind yourself.

815
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: Then when you're walking on the beach, it's like, no,

816
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: for real, all the sand and it's still kind of

817
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: you know, beggars the imagination.

818
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, another thing that's interesting is that, of course

819
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 3: we know now that parrot fishes are very important for

820
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 3: creating the sand that in some cases makes it possible

821
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: to have an island, and like these reef island environments

822
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 3: or helps replenish the beaches. But you might think, on

823
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 3: the other hand, well, the parrot fishes are the enemy

824
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 3: of the coral reefs though, because they're preying on, you know,

825
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 3: the coral, they're like scraping the coral. In fact, it

826
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 3: is thought that parrotfishes help protect coral reefs because as

827
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 3: they're going along taking bites out of the barrel coral reefs,

828
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 3: they might be leaving scars in them, biting pieces off,

829
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 3: taking chunks out. But by grazing in this way, they

830
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: prevent the reefs from becoming overgrown by things like algae

831
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 3: and other encrusting invertebrates like sponges and stuff. So they

832
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 3: may eat some coral as they munch along, but overall

833
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 3: they keep the coral reefs healthy.

834
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: That's right. This is a very important fact concerning like

835
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 2: necessary conservation for parrotfish because and it goes beyond that too,

836
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: Like I was reading that by constantly eating algae off

837
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: the coral, again, they're they're constantly in doing this cleaning

838
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: the coral, creating new surfaces on the coral, and this

839
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: is where baby corals can attach and grow, so that

840
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: that's in play. And on top of this, yeah, they're

841
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: keeping like seaweed, which remember is a microalgae. They're keeping

842
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: seaweed growth in check. And this is apparently one of

843
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: the prime results of parrotfish overfishing in parts of the

844
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 2: Caribbean and the Pacific seaweed overgrowth. And I was even

845
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: reading this is from Kramer at All in twenty seventeen's

846
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 2: prehistorical and historical declines in Caribbean coral reef accretion rates

847
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: driven by loss of parrotfish. The authors here say that

848
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: we see this connection proven out in sediment fossils. There's

849
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: a strong observable connection between declines and coral accretion rates

850
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 2: and parrotfish abundance. So and it's more evidence that we

851
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: need to conserve our parrotfish in order to help prevent

852
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 2: coral reef environments from becoming quote, algael dominated habitats. And yeah,

853
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: so this is worth keeping in mind. If you're traveling

854
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: somewhere and parrotfish is on the menu, it's advisable to

855
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: eat something else. And indeed, there are a number of

856
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: efforts and protections in places around the world to help

857
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: protect these populations like the parrotfish are a vital part

858
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: of those coral environments which are already threatened in a

859
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: number of ways. This is one that we can we

860
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: can we can do a lot to help coral reefs,

861
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: but not eating parrotfish is perhaps even more accessible than

862
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: some of the things we need to do to protect them.

863
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 3: Now, there's one more brief thing I wanted to get

864
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: into before we wrap up part one here, and that

865
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 3: is about the material makeup of parrotfish teeth. I was

866
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 3: reading about this in a press release for the Lawrence

867
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: Berkeley National Laboratory. This was published in twenty seventeen. It's

868
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 3: called X Rays Reveal the Biting Truth about Parrotfish Teeth

869
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,479
Speaker 3: by Glenn Roberts Jr. And so this is talking about

870
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 3: research conducted at the Berkeley Lab which used X rays

871
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 3: to examine parrotfish teeth and better understand what makes them

872
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: so resilient in the face of essentially scraping, biting, and

873
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 3: chewing on rocks all day. You know, on these coral

874
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 3: skeletons are not soft. You know, they're hard Calcium carbonate

875
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 3: and they're just these teeth are relentlessly munching. So the

876
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 3: particular parrotfish species in question was the steep head parrotfish

877
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 3: also known as the blunt head parrotfish scientific name Chlorurus

878
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 3: micro rhinos. And in this analysis, the researchers found that

879
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 3: the resilience of parrotfish teeth was due to this woven

880
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: microstructure of minerals in the enameloid of the teeth. And

881
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 3: the article compares it in fact in structure to chain mail,

882
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 3: which I thought was interesting. So this microstructure creates a

883
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 3: tooth the material that is incredibly hard at the biting surface.

884
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 3: The article points out that the hardness of the biting

885
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 3: surface is about five hundred and thirty tons of pressure

886
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 3: per square inch and they compare this to the weight

887
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 3: of eighty eight African elephants on a single square inch

888
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 3: of space. Now, that microstructure of the teeth fits into

889
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 3: a larger structure, the sort of morphology of the jaw,

890
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 3: which is that these parrotfish have like fifteen rows of

891
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: teeth totaling about one thousand teeth, all fused together, biologically

892
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 3: glued or cemented together into this single beak like structure,

893
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 3: and the stiffness of the underlying mineral crystals increases as

894
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 3: it goes toward the tip the biting surface, and the

895
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: article quotes one of the researchers involved named PUPA. Gilbert,

896
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 3: who is a professor in the physics department at the

897
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 3: University of Wisconsin Madison, who says, quote, parrotfish teeth are

898
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 3: the coolest biominerals of all. They are the stiffest, among

899
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 3: the hardest, and the most resistant to fracture and to

900
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: abrasion ever measured. And so given the incredible material qualities

901
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 3: of these parrotfish teeth and beaks, researchers are looking into

902
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: ways that the oven crystals of parrotfish teeth might be

903
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 3: used as an inspiration for human engineering, a design pattern

904
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 3: that could be reproduced in synthetic materials to create a tougher,

905
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 3: more resilient product.

906
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: Now, just a couple of notes about these teeth for one.

907
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 2: On one hand, to come back to the alien xenomorph.

908
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 2: You know, it is interesting that they're sometimes described, at

909
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: least for some of the morphs, as possessing metal teeth.

910
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 2: And here we have the parrotfish, whose teeth are sometimes

911
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 2: described as being stronger than many metals men metals, so

912
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting comparison there. Also, you know, inevitably

913
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: there is the question in the same way that we

914
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: can't look at a creature that is biting coral and

915
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 2: you know, think about our own teeth biting coral, we

916
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: also can't help but look at a creature with interesting

917
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 2: teeth and wonder what happens if I get bitten by

918
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: one of these? So I mean, to be clear, you know,

919
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 2: humans are not on the menu for the parrotfish. There

920
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 2: are accounts of parrotfish rarely biting humans, though it does

921
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 2: seem very rare, and the incidents I was looking at,

922
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: most of them seem to be related to incidents with

923
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: fishermen who were actively harvesting them or you know, engaging

924
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 2: with a trap or something. But they have bitten humans before,

925
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 2: so it can happen. But I mean that can be

926
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: said of a lot of creatures, like you know, a

927
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: horse can bite you.

928
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 3: Oh Lord, why did I google this? But I did?

929
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: Oh? Did you just google the art? You may have

930
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 2: googled one that comes up a lot.

931
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 3: Came across a news article that claims to be a

932
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 3: photo of a wound from somebody who was bitten by

933
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: a parrotfish and it looks it's grotesque. Listeners be warned.

934
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a particular story that comes up in search

935
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: involving a fisherman that is that was bitten in a

936
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 2: delicate area by one of these parrotfish. So yeah, I

937
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: you know, weighed carefully if you decide to pursue these

938
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: stories for yourself. But yeah, it can't happen. It has happened,

939
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: But uh, these are generally not considered you know, risky fish,

940
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 2: and people snorkele around them almost constantly without issue.

941
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: They're not looking to bite you. They're just trying to

942
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: go about their business. They're scraping, they're buzzing't.

943
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 2: Like bees, they have so much coral to scrape, like

944
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 2: biting you takes time away from vital coral scraping time.

945
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're gonna go and close up this

946
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 2: episode now, but we actually have even more exciting content

947
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: to cover about the parrotfish we didn't. We briefly mentioned

948
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 2: their their their their sex changing ability, so we're going

949
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: to get into that for sure. There's also some other

950
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: stuff that will and I think in ways get us

951
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: even closer to that xenomorph area. Again.

952
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, we're gonna have some cocoonings, some all kinds

953
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: of good stuff to get into next time.

954
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so tune in for that. In the meantime,

955
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear from anyone else out there who

956
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 2: has personal experience being around parrotfish. You know, we're not

957
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: encouraging anyone to actively seek out and eat parrotfish, but

958
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: you know, it has been a tradition of cuisines. So

959
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:09,839
Speaker 2: if you would like to write in and share your

960
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 2: culinary experience with parrotfish, if you have tasted a parrotfish liver, yes,

961
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: we would like to know what that is like that.

962
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 2: We just would like to know. We'd like to know

963
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 2: what the Romans were into when they were consuming their

964
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 2: parrot fish meals. So right in, it's all fair game

965
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: as always, you know, if you have when you do

966
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: write into us, you can always flag something is and

967
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 2: say hey, don't use my name on this, I want

968
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: it to be anonymous. Or you can say, hey, this

969
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 2: is information for you, but don't actually read this. That's

970
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: fair as well. Just write in. We would love to

971
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 2: hear from you. Just a reminder that stuff to blow

972
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: your mind is primarily a science and culture podcast with

973
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Mondays,

974
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays. We set

975
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

976
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema.

977
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

978
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

979
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

980
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

981
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,439
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

982
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

983
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,240
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984
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,120
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985
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:40,080
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