1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff, a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: Hey brain Stuff, Lauren bog obam here, but another classic 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: episode from our archive. This one deals with the sticky 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: psychological science of playtime. Kids use play to explore their 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: world and themselves. So is there danger in letting kids 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: play with toy versions of violent weapons like guns? Hey 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: brain Stuff, Lauren voge obam here. A question that's been 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: troubling parents more and more in an age when mass 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: shooting seem to occur with horrifying frequency, is should young 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: children be allowed to play with toy versions of the 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: weapons that are killing other kids and adults. In an 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: article for Vogue, writer Michelle Rui's described a conversation she 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: had with a fellow mother who asked, what are we 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: feeding our children in the metaphorical sense when we hand 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: them guns to play with? After a recent school shooting 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: in Indiana, a reader's letter to the Indianapolis Star voy 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: a similar sentiment. He wrote, children should not have even 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: cap pistols or toy guns to play with because it 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: teaches the wrong lesson. And here's a quote from a 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: Huffington's Post article by Wendy Kannar, a former teacher who 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: explains why our family doesn't allow toy guns, she said. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: At least one retailer has already stopped selling some types 23 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: of toy guns. In February, when Walmart announced it would 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: raise the purchase age for firearms at its stores to 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: twenty one. The company also said that it would remove 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: from its website items resembling assault style rifles, including toys. 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: Walmart stopped selling actual modern sporting rifles, including the a 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: R fifteen back in. For all the anxiety and outrage 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: it stimulates, there's relatively little scientific research on the effect 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: that playing with toy guns has upon children, and although 31 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: some studies suggest it may be linked to aggressive behavior 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: in childhood, no clear connection has been established between childhood 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: play with toy guns and adult attitudes toward or propensity 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: for violence. Some psychologists who have done research on children 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: and toy guns think that parenting is a much more 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: important indicator of aggressive behavior. We spoke with Charles W. Turner, 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: a psychologist on the staff of the Organ Research Institute 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: who has more than forty years of experience conducting treatment 39 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: and prevention research on children, adolescents, and young adults with 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: behavior problems. Back in the mid nineteen seventies, he and 41 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: colleague Diane Goldsmith published one of the earliest papers on 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: the subject, in which they compared a group of children 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: who played with toy guns to another group who played 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: with toy airplanes and kids who played with other toys. 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: All were observed for signs of antisocial behavior, such as 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: aggression or rule breaking. Why the airplanes, Turner explains, the 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: purpose of the airplanes was to control for the fact 48 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: that you are introducing a novel toy. Is it the 49 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: novelty of the toy leading to the acting out, or 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: whether it's something specific about the gun. Turner and Goldsmith 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: found that the toy guns produced a reliably higher rate 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: of anti social behavior than the average of the toy 53 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: airplanes and the other toys, though the toy airplanes also 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: increased the rate of kids misbehaving as well. But today, Turner, 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: who moved on from what he calls hypothetical studies to 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: studying actual young offenders, cautions against reading too much into 57 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: his early work from a practical standpoint. He says it 58 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: would be hard to look at whether playing with guns 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: as a child affected attitudes as an adult. Based on 60 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: his own work as well as that of other researchers. 61 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: He suspects that playing with guns as a child is 62 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: one small part of a bigger picture of what leads 63 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: to adult aggressive behavior. It's a small, nearly trivial part. 64 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: He puts more weight on other influences, such as how 65 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: a family relates to a child and their pattern of interactions. 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: In a study published in the journal Early Education and 67 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Development in researchers Malcolm W. Watson and Ying Peng observed 68 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: thirty six three to five year old children in free 69 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: play in a daycare center and coded their behavior for 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the amount of reallygression, pretend aggression, ref and tumble play, 71 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: and non aggressive pretend play. They also had parents fill 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: out a questionnaire to gather data such as whether kids 73 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: played with toy guns at home mostly boys did, as 74 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: well as whether they watched TV programs with aggression and 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: the amount of physical punishment that parents used for discipline. 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: The researchers found that toy gun play, along with parental 77 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: punishment were associated with a higher level of real aggression, 78 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 1: though not with pretend aggression. We spoke via email with Watson, 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: who is the George and Francis Levin Professor of Psychology 80 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: at Brandeis University He said, there are so many factors 81 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: that act as antecedents to real aggression that this one 82 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: study could not evaluate the entire story. Various factors may 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: interact to increase the likelihood of aggression in children and 84 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: children developing long term aggressive tendencies. Watson explains the study 85 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: was designed to pit the cathartic theory of aggression, in 86 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: which aggressive fantasy play might reduce act will, frustration, and aggression, 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: with the queuing theory, in which toy guns and aggressive 88 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: play would act as cues and practice for real aggression. 89 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: He said, the more toy gun play that was used, 90 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: the more real aggression boys showed. In their preschool boys 91 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: showed much more toy gun play than did girls, and 92 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: probably because of this, there was no relation found between 93 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: toy gun play and real aggression in girls. Interestingly, we 94 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: also found that the more toy gun play that was used, 95 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: the less non aggressive pretend play, including pretend aggression, children showed, 96 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: and not aggressive pretend play is seen as a good 97 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: thing for children, he continued, So, in effect, there was 98 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,799 Speaker 1: no evidence for a cathartic effect, but there was evidence 99 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: for a probable queuing effect playing with toy guns. Maybe 100 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: increased when some children already show more aggression, or reciprocally, 101 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: real aggression may be cued and increased when children play 102 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: more with toy guns. It just didn't seem that anything 103 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: good came from playing with toy guns. But Watson also 104 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: notes that the strongest factor that predicted real aggression in 105 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: preschoolers more than toy guns or watching violent TV, was 106 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: the amount and frequency of parents spanking their kids or 107 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: using other corporal punishment. Watson said, we have done subsequent 108 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: studies that showed the children who were more aggressive led 109 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: to parents using more corporal punishment over time, but that 110 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: the use of more corporal punishment led to even more 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: aggression in the children. Parental use of corporal punishment was 112 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: part of an ongoing negative spiral. He continued, I think 113 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: pretend play overall has a great influence on children's development 114 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: and thinking, and so I suspect that toy gun play 115 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: may have long term consequences. But I also suspect that 116 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: parental attitudes towards guns and also parents modeling of aggression 117 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: will have even stronger influences. Today's episode is based on 118 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: the article does playing with toy guns lead to later 119 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: acts of gun violence on how stuff works dot Com 120 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: written by Patrick J. Keiger. Rain Stuff is production of 121 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio in partnership with how stuff Works dot Com, 122 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: and it's produced by Tyler Clang. For more podcasts my 123 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 124 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.