WEBVTT - Third Squad on Here & Now

0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.040
<v Speaker 1>Hey, everyone, this is Elliott Woods, host of Third Squad.

0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.200
<v Speaker 1>I hope you had a great Thanksgiving on behalf of

0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.080
<v Speaker 1>the team. I want to thank you for coming on

0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.280
<v Speaker 1>this journey so far. I know it's been an intense ride,

0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.840
<v Speaker 1>and I'm truly honored to have you listening. It's hard

0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.000
<v Speaker 1>to believe, but we've already traveled more than five thousand miles,

0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.919
<v Speaker 1>crossed thirteen states, and visited with five of the Third

0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Squad survivors. And we've still got thousands of miles and

0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.960
<v Speaker 1>six more episodes to go. If you appreciate what you've

0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.840
<v Speaker 1>heard so far, please consider supporting our work with a

0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:36.040
<v Speaker 1>financial contribution. To find out how, visit the donate page

0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.440
<v Speaker 1>at third squad dot com. That's th h I R

0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:43.640
<v Speaker 1>D s q U A D dot com. We'd also

0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.040
<v Speaker 1>love to hear your feedback and your stories from the

0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.720
<v Speaker 1>Forever War, so shoot us an email at mail at

0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.839
<v Speaker 1>third squad dot com or leave us a voicemail at

0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.520
<v Speaker 1>four zero six seven six three eight to one four.

0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.480
<v Speaker 1>And if you got a minute, please rate and review

0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Third squa ODD on your preferred podcast app. It will

0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.559
<v Speaker 1>help other people find the show. We're off this week,

0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.399
<v Speaker 1>but we'll be back next Thursday with episode seven. In

0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.600
<v Speaker 1>the meantime, we got an interview to share with you

0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.400
<v Speaker 1>that I recorded recently with w b U R Boston's

0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Here and now. Thanks again until next time, keep pushing

0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.440
<v Speaker 1>as the calendar goes. America's longest war ended in August

0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.440
<v Speaker 1>with the withdrawal from Afghanistan, but for the men and

0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.280
<v Speaker 1>women who fought there, you can imagine the memories and

0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.160
<v Speaker 1>the demons remain with them. A new podcast, Third Squad,

0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.360
<v Speaker 1>tells the story of first Battalion, fifth Marines sent to

0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Afghanistan's Hellman Province in Tleven. This was the bloodiest stage

0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.800
<v Speaker 1>of the war, the so called surge. Twelve men deployed,

0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.440
<v Speaker 1>eleven returned alive. Now, before going on, we should note

0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.560
<v Speaker 1>that this conversation deals with descriptions of war and violence

0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.960
<v Speaker 1>that may not be suitable for all listeners. The host

0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.279
<v Speaker 1>of Third Squad is a journalist and veteran himself, Elliott Woods.

0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.240
<v Speaker 1>And Elliott joined this welcome to hear it now, thanks

0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.560
<v Speaker 1>for having me. You embedded with Third Squad back in

0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Tleven and you know from the audio they were, frankly

0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:10.600
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of kids for some just at a high

0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.480
<v Speaker 1>school and then a decade later, you go on this

0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:18.600
<v Speaker 1>trip to reconnect with them. What's the origin story this project? Yeah,

0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.720
<v Speaker 1>so the origin story is, like you said, I went

0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.560
<v Speaker 1>on this EMBED with this group of Marines and Sangin

0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.920
<v Speaker 1>District and Helman Province back in two thousand eleven. I

0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.480
<v Speaker 1>came home from that embed just completely exhausted. And then,

0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.400
<v Speaker 1>as the story of the podcast tells, one of the

0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.080
<v Speaker 1>young men who I interviewed and photographed got killed shortly

0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.919
<v Speaker 1>after I left, and so I just figured, I don't

0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:42.760
<v Speaker 1>know if I can do this anymore. The risks that

0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.560
<v Speaker 1>I was taking didn't seem justifiable to me anymore, and

0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.119
<v Speaker 1>I was just worn out. But I always felt bad

0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.359
<v Speaker 1>about turning my back on that mission. I always felt

0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:54.520
<v Speaker 1>like I abandoned something. So ten years later I decided

0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.320
<v Speaker 1>to go find these guys who made such a deep

0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.240
<v Speaker 1>impression on me and see what had become of their

0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.359
<v Speaker 1>lives and what they made of the war after all

0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.680
<v Speaker 1>those years. So that's what I did. Now. You mentioned

0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the one member of the squad who died in Afghanistan,

0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Michael Dutcher was killed by an I E ed and

0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.560
<v Speaker 1>his death hits his colleagues very hard. Here's Marine Manuel

0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Mendoza describing what happened. I'm looking at Dutcher, He's running

0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.519
<v Speaker 1>in front of me, and then the whole world turns

0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.959
<v Speaker 1>brown and then black. The next thing I know when

0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.919
<v Speaker 1>I got my hand on his on his flak, and

0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:34.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm pulling him out of this crater and he's just

0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:41.200
<v Speaker 1>covered in dust. This leg is destroyed. It's got a

0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:47.720
<v Speaker 1>hole on his pelvis, tinn hole. Now a decade later,

0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.119
<v Speaker 1>Mendoza tells you he's haunted by guilt about Dutcher's death.

0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.040
<v Speaker 1>He blames himself. He considers at one point taking his

0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.320
<v Speaker 1>own life, and these are things he's never talked about.

0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.280
<v Speaker 1>He describes relive in that moment, feeling everything all at once,

0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:09.560
<v Speaker 1>the fear, the apprehension, the exhaustion, and then doubt or

0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.600
<v Speaker 1>you start wondering which you couldn't done different that what if?

0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:22.279
<v Speaker 1>And you start thinking where you live? Why am I alive?

0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.880
<v Speaker 1>So Elliott, I guess what did you tell him to

0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.360
<v Speaker 1>get him to talk about this? Well, there's a part

0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.080
<v Speaker 1>in that episode where Mendoza gets to a point where

0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.520
<v Speaker 1>he says he doesn't really want to tell these particular

0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.919
<v Speaker 1>stories because he worries that it would be disrespectful to

0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:45.200
<v Speaker 1>the families of the dead, and disrespectful to his dead friends. Yeah,

0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.440
<v Speaker 1>And I told him before the interview. I told all

0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.359
<v Speaker 1>these guys before the interview, you have the wheel, and

0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to point out some places that I want

0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.360
<v Speaker 1>to go, but you decide how close we go or

0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.360
<v Speaker 1>if we go there at all, And if you want

0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.680
<v Speaker 1>to stop and take a break at any time, or

0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.880
<v Speaker 1>if you just want to shut it down, we'll do that.

0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.680
<v Speaker 1>So that happened in this interview, and we shut the

0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:10.719
<v Speaker 1>recorder down. And I told Mendoza about why, basically why

0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:12.720
<v Speaker 1>I became a journalist and why I was out there

0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.159
<v Speaker 1>talking to them. I told him the story of two

0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.320
<v Speaker 1>guys from my unit who were killed by a suicide

0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:22.320
<v Speaker 1>bomber on December two thousand four. And I told him

0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.679
<v Speaker 1>about how I went to Afghanistan in the first place

0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.760
<v Speaker 1>because I thought that Americans needed to hear these stories

0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.040
<v Speaker 1>and and we weren't paying enough attention back home, and

0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the silence I thought was dangerous. And I told him

0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.200
<v Speaker 1>about how the first story that I ever wrote as

0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.720
<v Speaker 1>a journalist was about the parents of those two guys

0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.840
<v Speaker 1>from my unit who were killed, and how I know

0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.080
<v Speaker 1>what it's like to worry about disrespecting the dead or

0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:50.760
<v Speaker 1>making making these kinds of horrific incidents profane. And eventually

0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.760
<v Speaker 1>he said, okay, let's do it. Let's talk. As you

0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.680
<v Speaker 1>can hear with Mendoza, it led to him opening a

0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:00.839
<v Speaker 1>locked place inside of him off and letting out some

0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.760
<v Speaker 1>things that had really been torturing him. Well, Elliott, we

0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.320
<v Speaker 1>also hear this in your podcast with John Bolinger, another

0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.400
<v Speaker 1>member of this squad ten years ago. John Bollinger, the

0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.360
<v Speaker 1>kid in Afghanistan, professes himself as this out and not killer.

0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.720
<v Speaker 1>Let's listen, firefights are fun. I enjoy firefights. He had

0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:25.200
<v Speaker 1>drop bombs on people and kill badman. That's that's what

0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.400
<v Speaker 1>we're here for. And then he comes home to his

0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.920
<v Speaker 1>wife and his young son and he's mentally wounded. He's

0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.960
<v Speaker 1>suffering from PTSD and p and his wife tell you

0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.039
<v Speaker 1>they realize he's not okay. I don't think it was

0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:45.000
<v Speaker 1>really until you know, second week being back m hmm.

0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.599
<v Speaker 1>Woke up in the middle of the night getting choked.

0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.279
<v Speaker 1>So John Bolinger seeks professional help. And suddenly John and

0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.680
<v Speaker 1>his wife are shamed at Camp Pendleton where they lived there,

0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.200
<v Speaker 1>shunned by the people around them. You're a veteran yourself,

0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.720
<v Speaker 1>what do you take at this system, this mental health system.

0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.880
<v Speaker 1>So the Marine Corps is an incredibly rigid culture that

0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:11.400
<v Speaker 1>values bravery, courage, and physical strength and determination above all else,

0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.400
<v Speaker 1>and so anybody who's seen as weak in any way

0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.160
<v Speaker 1>is a risk. And I think there's been progress over

0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.640
<v Speaker 1>the years, UM, But I think at the time that

0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.960
<v Speaker 1>that Bollinger was coming home from sang In, that deeply

0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.720
<v Speaker 1>entrenched culture that saw any kind of admission of mental

0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.880
<v Speaker 1>weakness as a liability was still very very much alive.

0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.960
<v Speaker 1>And so he goes to seek help from a Navy

0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.680
<v Speaker 1>therapist counselor, and immediately he's made aware in the unit

0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.520
<v Speaker 1>that he's basically not welcome anymore. And so that was

0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:53.120
<v Speaker 1>was a terrible time in his life, UM. And fortunately

0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.480
<v Speaker 1>for him, and this really speaks to his perseverance, he

0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.560
<v Speaker 1>didn't give up on it. He kept going, He kept

0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.720
<v Speaker 1>seeking help through the military, even though they didn't make

0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:02.600
<v Speaker 1>it easy for him. And then when he got out

0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.280
<v Speaker 1>of the Marine Corps, he kept seeking help everywhere. He

0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.280
<v Speaker 1>moved after that from the v A and he's still

0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:11.120
<v Speaker 1>in therapy a decade later and has made tremendous progress

0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.680
<v Speaker 1>in his therapeutic journey. Well, there's this striking moment in

0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.960
<v Speaker 1>John's story. He's back in the States and he sees

0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.360
<v Speaker 1>this twelve year old kid in a memory from Afghanistan.

0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Just hits him. There's this kid who was it's kind

0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.199
<v Speaker 1>have been much older, and we're in a we're in

0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:39.200
<v Speaker 1>a gunfight, and I saw him and I didn't want

0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.599
<v Speaker 1>to take the shot, but he was shooting, yeah, and

0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.480
<v Speaker 1>a K I had to take the shot. I didn't

0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:46.640
<v Speaker 1>want to take the shot, but I had to take

0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:57.559
<v Speaker 1>the shot. That's the one. I that's the one. MH.

0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, Elliott. As I listened to this, I feel

0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.320
<v Speaker 1>like a voyor. I mean, this is so raw. And

0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.480
<v Speaker 1>so the question for you is what is the point

0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.160
<v Speaker 1>of of bringing us, the listeners so close to these men.

0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:16.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't think anybody who hasn't been to war witnessed

0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.040
<v Speaker 1>these horrifying events up close, or in some cases perpetrated them,

0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.120
<v Speaker 1>which is what John Bollinger is talking about. I don't

0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.440
<v Speaker 1>think there's any way for somebody who hasn't been there

0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.200
<v Speaker 1>to really know what it's all about. But I think

0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.160
<v Speaker 1>we all have a duty to try our hardest to

0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.520
<v Speaker 1>understand what it is that we're asking of people when

0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.880
<v Speaker 1>we ask them to go kill and die on behalf

0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.240
<v Speaker 1>of the country. And of those two things, the killing

0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:41.880
<v Speaker 1>and the dying, I think the killing is the thing

0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.000
<v Speaker 1>that we're most embarrassed to talk about, we're most ashamed of.

0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.600
<v Speaker 1>And so what that act does to the people who

0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.480
<v Speaker 1>committed to some of them, not all of them, but

0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:56.920
<v Speaker 1>to a good number of them, is incredibly transformative and powerful,

0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.520
<v Speaker 1>and it can be a form of trauma or to

0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:04.800
<v Speaker 1>use another phrase, moral injury that affects people's lives forever.

0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.160
<v Speaker 1>So my goal with this entire project is to bring

0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.680
<v Speaker 1>people into the room to really sit with the the

0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:19.080
<v Speaker 1>consequences of these wars that have been so far from

0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.840
<v Speaker 1>most people's consciousness, to basically ask them to reckon with

0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.760
<v Speaker 1>the human costs and consequences to the people that we

0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.120
<v Speaker 1>asked to do this on our behalf. And I think

0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.960
<v Speaker 1>John Bollinger and Manny Mendoza and these other guys were

0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:38.480
<v Speaker 1>incredibly brave to open up and talk about their private pain.

0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.960
<v Speaker 1>And as far as reckoning for you, you set out

0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.760
<v Speaker 1>in this project to ask what was this all for?

0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.520
<v Speaker 1>And where do we go from here? How do you

0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:56.080
<v Speaker 1>and how do these men answer those questions? Well, everybody

0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.680
<v Speaker 1>has a slightly different answer, but on the level of

0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.199
<v Speaker 1>the front line troop answer to the question what was

0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.640
<v Speaker 1>it all for? Is we did it for each other.

0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.880
<v Speaker 1>We were fighting for each other, to keep each other

0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.520
<v Speaker 1>alive and to support each other. Not all of them

0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.520
<v Speaker 1>have an answer to the bigger question of what was

0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.120
<v Speaker 1>it all for? Why did we spend twenty years in Afghanistan?

0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.959
<v Speaker 1>Why people die there and tens of thousands of other

0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.960
<v Speaker 1>people get wounded. Most of them don't have an answer

0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.480
<v Speaker 1>to that question, And to be honest with you, I

0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.120
<v Speaker 1>don't have a great answer to that question either. But

0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.000
<v Speaker 1>I also think it's my job as a journalist and

0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.720
<v Speaker 1>it's our job as civilians and citizens to demand answers

0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:38.559
<v Speaker 1>to that bigger question. Why was all of this sacrifice necessary?

0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Why was all of this damage done? And so that's

0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.240
<v Speaker 1>a question that I'll continue asking and seeking to answer

0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 1>throughout the rest of the series and probably for the

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.640
<v Speaker 1>rest of my life. Well it is a powerful listen.

0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Elliott Woods is a veteran and multimedia journalist and the

0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.440
<v Speaker 1>host of the podcast Third Squad. You can find it,

0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.320
<v Speaker 1>as they say, wherever you find your pod guests Elliott,

0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:01.679
<v Speaker 1>thank you,