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Speaker 1: Your tunes about Drive on your twenty four to seven

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Speaker 1: home of the Black and Goal Steelers Nation Radio, our

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Speaker 1: number two here on the drive, into the phone lines

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Speaker 1: we go, and we are very excited to introduced our

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Speaker 1: next guest to Steelers Nation, Cody Alexander match quarters dot com.

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Speaker 1: He hosts the Let's Talk Ball podcast. He's written six

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Speaker 1: books on defense. Matt, you know this, I think some

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Speaker 1: of our listeners do. Cody's been on on the WVU

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Speaker 1: show that I do a couple times, and it's always

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Speaker 1: a treat. I think he is one of the best

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Speaker 1: defensive minds in the media sphere of football, and he

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Speaker 1: joins us now to talk Patrick Graham and what we

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Speaker 1: can expect for this Pittsburgh Steelers defense, new staff, new

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Speaker 1: defensive coordinator. Cody. Thank you so much for taking the

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Speaker 1: time for us here today, man, and let's just start

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Speaker 1: with the thirty thousand foot view.

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Speaker 2: Before you do, if you don't mind, Cody, I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to let you know that, to be flat out honest,

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Speaker 2: about a year ago, I was unfamiliar with your work

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Speaker 2: and I just kind of I don't know where I

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Speaker 2: got light of it, but I immediately signed up for

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Speaker 2: your email which is free. Everybody can do it. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, there's so much good stuff in here. And

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Speaker 2: then I joined the substack right before the season or

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Speaker 2: whatever too. You might, oh gladly pay for that. That's

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Speaker 2: great information. I urge all of our listeners to at

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Speaker 2: least check it out.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate it, Cody.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump into it. Man. When Steelers fans who are unfamiliar,

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Speaker 1: you know, you hear a Patrick Graham defense, what are

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Speaker 1: the first things that come to mind? What are they

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Speaker 1: going to notice on the surface before we kind of

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Speaker 1: dig into the weeds.

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Speaker 3: I think that you're going to see a very similar,

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Speaker 3: not the same scheme that you've seen traditionally run from

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Speaker 3: the Steelers. So I think if you're looking for a

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Speaker 3: year where you're just going to look out there and

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Speaker 3: be like, this is going to be a massive overhaul.

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Speaker 3: We're going to completely flip the scheme. Do our guys?

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Speaker 3: Can our guys even do what they're being to ask?

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Speaker 3: I think if you look at what Patrick Graham has

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Speaker 3: traditionally done, I think it fits the mold, but you're

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Speaker 3: going to get different pictures, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I've got the same impression, and people around

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Speaker 2: here just like, oh they're running three four, it's going

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Speaker 2: to be three four. I mean three four to four

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Speaker 2: to three is like talking two decades ago, as you

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Speaker 2: know better than I do. But I don't think that

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Speaker 2: they have a lot of Do you agree that they

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Speaker 2: don't have a lot of square pegs trying to be

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Speaker 2: shoved in around hole now for what's okay?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: And then my next question, what I quite haven't quite

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Speaker 2: figured out, is like every team the Steelers are going

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Speaker 2: to try, are going to acquire new talent, corner or

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Speaker 2: safety whatever. Do you mind going position by position and like,

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Speaker 2: what are the ideal quality these the Graham would be after,

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Speaker 2: not what he's inheriting or what they used to get.

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Speaker 2: Does he want corners with length? Does he want a

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Speaker 2: smaller slot guy? Does he want a Kyle Hamilton slot guy?

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Speaker 2: Because frankly, looking at the Raiders, they said have any

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Speaker 2: good players, it's hard to he didn't really get the

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Speaker 2: pick of any of his groceries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I think, really when you when

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Speaker 3: you boil it down, he's going to have a I mean,

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Speaker 3: outside of Max Crosby, who is just a game wrecker

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Speaker 3: on the run defense in the passing defense for them,

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Speaker 3: he really didn't have a premier player, and if you

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Speaker 3: look at what happened this year, do I would just

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Speaker 3: don't watch the film from this year. And the reason

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Speaker 3: why is it's not because it's because of Pete carrit

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Speaker 3: this system, this system and what like. I've always really

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Speaker 3: liked Patrick Graham because he was basically making lemonade with

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Speaker 3: lemons and he was able to put Patrick Mahomes in

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Speaker 3: hell multiple times. He could get you through a game plan,

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Speaker 3: he could mitigate it. The problem was he either didn't

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Speaker 3: have a quarterback on the other side that was competent

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Speaker 3: or he was forced to essentially run Pete Carroll's defense.

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Speaker 3: I think there's sometimes when coaches get these jobs, they

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Speaker 3: want to be able to walk in a room and

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Speaker 3: be able to know what's being said. And so I

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Speaker 3: think you look at it the way that they balloon

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Speaker 3: their cover three rates last year. The only fingerprint that

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Speaker 3: from Patrick Graham that I saw this past year that

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Speaker 3: you're like, yeah, that's Patrick Graham was their zero blitz

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Speaker 3: stuff that they would use. So he wants to be

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Speaker 3: an aggressive defense. In twenty twenty four they were top

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Speaker 3: ten and I think they were six in blitz rate.

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Speaker 3: They plummeted. I think they were one of the lowest

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Speaker 3: in the league this year. So when you don't have talent,

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Speaker 3: it's funny because staying in the division, if you want

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Speaker 3: to look at what it looks like to not have

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Speaker 3: talent and then play, sit and get go, look at

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Speaker 3: what the Bengals were doing at the very beginning of

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Speaker 3: the year. That's what that looks like. And I think

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Speaker 3: for the Raiders that's what it was. So when.

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Speaker 2: Cody, like, what you're saying is these are the Bengals.

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Speaker 2: The Raiders are execution based offenses where you need excellent

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Speaker 2: talent to pull it off because you're not out scheming anybody.

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Speaker 2: I just want our listeners to be able to follow along.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly what it is. Is that you're trying

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Speaker 3: to diagnose everything. You're you're trying to sit there and

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Speaker 3: you're going to let your player. You know, it's the

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Speaker 3: old adage of let your players play fast. The problem

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Speaker 3: is your players have to be able to process fast,

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Speaker 3: which is why the Houston Texans look like they do,

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Speaker 3: and they don't really do that much other than stunt

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Speaker 3: to front every once in a while. So he was

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Speaker 3: playing a very passive game. They weren't getting any kind

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Speaker 3: of pressure other than from Max Crosby. There's not a

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Speaker 3: lot of time so to go back and say at

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Speaker 3: this roster, like, I think he can actually amplify this

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Speaker 3: roster because he's going to bring a little bit more nuance.

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Speaker 3: It's not going to be some of the basic schemes

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Speaker 3: that really the Steelers have been running now for you know, decades.

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Speaker 3: He's going to be able to inject a little bit

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Speaker 3: of different schemes, a little bit more nuance within the

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Speaker 3: cover three umbrella and kind of bringing a different, maybe

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Speaker 3: a fresher approach to the defensive side of the ball.

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Speaker 1: Cody Alexander with us here on the Steelers Audio Network. Cody,

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Speaker 1: when you kind of mentioned the difference between Patrick Graham

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Speaker 1: and the Raiders defense last year under Pete Carroll versus

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Speaker 1: what they looked like in twenty twenty four where it

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Speaker 1: really felt like he was the one pulling the strings.

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Speaker 1: A huge part of that was that the B gap

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Speaker 1: Max blitz pressure led the league in seven man blitzes

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. Do you expect to see any

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Speaker 1: shades of that any returned to that this year with

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Speaker 1: the Steelers, or do you think he might look, you know,

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Speaker 1: again not trying to make lemonade out of lemons. He

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Speaker 1: might look at things, Hey, I've got more talent on

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Speaker 1: this defense. I don't have to dial it up quite

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Speaker 1: to the extent that I did in Las Vegas. What

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Speaker 1: do you kind of expect that blend of what we

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Speaker 1: know he's done in the past versus what the Steelers

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Speaker 1: have for him to work with.

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Speaker 3: I actually think that's baked into his DNA, and that's

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Speaker 3: kind of part of That's what I was saying, is

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Speaker 3: like one of the things that you can say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I've watched the twenty four tape, I've now watched the

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Speaker 3: twenty five tape. The one carryover that I know that

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Speaker 3: this is Patrick Graham and this is his scheme is

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Speaker 3: those b gap blitzes that cover zero that he runs.

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Speaker 3: I don't think they'll run it at the same volume

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Speaker 3: as he was running and maybe in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: because you just don't have to when you have some talent.

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Speaker 3: But I do think that that is going to be

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Speaker 3: something that you're going to see. Primarily from that is, Hey,

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Speaker 3: we're going to see some different blitz structures and one

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Speaker 3: of those is definitely going to be those double B

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Speaker 3: gap stabs with Cover zero in the back.

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Speaker 2: How much Belichick influence do you see in him?

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Speaker 3: I think you know the thing with him is he

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Speaker 3: doesn't want to run a lot of Cover one and

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Speaker 3: you just don't see. Also, then that that mix of

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Speaker 3: Cover two, just because that was kind of the Bella

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Speaker 3: check in way right as that we play a lot

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Speaker 3: of Cover one, our change up is a lot of

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Speaker 3: Tampa two. Just be in those those pairs like that's

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Speaker 3: like peanut butter and jelly. So I think he's kind

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Speaker 3: of been able to really build nuance within his Cover three.

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Speaker 3: I think Ted Win did a really good article for

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Speaker 3: The Athletic. This is what was back in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: four of talking with him about how he kind of

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Speaker 3: changes week to week with.

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Speaker 2: Where that's kind of where I'm going with it. The

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Speaker 2: adaptability week to week is a Bellachecki in theme.

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Speaker 3: Now that is I so what structurally when you're like, okay,

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Speaker 3: can I find some things? I think structurally they're a

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Speaker 3: little bit different. But the adaptability in the nuance week

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Speaker 3: to week and having this game specific for the opponent, yes,

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Speaker 3: that is one percent a bella CHECKI in way of

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Speaker 3: looking at.

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Speaker 1: It, Cody, I want to ask you about two Steelers specifically.

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Speaker 1: Seems like we've already this offseason spent some time discussing

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Speaker 1: these guys, and I'm sure we will continue to do so,

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Speaker 1: Patrick Queen and Jalen Ramsey and kind of balancing their performance,

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Speaker 1: their age, their cap hits with what the Steelers do

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Speaker 1: in this Mike McCarthy, Patrick Graham, you know, Brian i

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Speaker 1: Angelico kind of brain trust heading into twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: When you look at guys like Queen and Ramsey specifically,

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Speaker 1: do you think Patrick Queen could move on from these guys,

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Speaker 1: free up some space, use some resources elsewhere, or do

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Speaker 1: you look at it and you say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: before the Steelers maybe kind of do anything. I don't

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Speaker 1: know drastic is the right word, but maybe major in

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Speaker 1: that regard. You'd like to see these guys with Patrick

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Speaker 1: Graham first in this new look defense, before you start

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Speaker 1: to shuffle a bunch of chairs around.

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Speaker 3: I think if there's one guy, if you're like, look

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Speaker 3: we can only keep one, let's get rid of one

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Speaker 3: of them, I think you can probably live with Patrick

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Speaker 3: Queen leaving now he does want to play some based defense,

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Speaker 3: so you do need to have an adequate linebacker behind him,

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Speaker 3: But I think that you already have a linebacker that

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Speaker 3: I think can be pretty dynamic and Keeton Wilson, So

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Speaker 3: I think you can in two you can find a

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Speaker 3: market value and free agency at the linebacker position a

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Speaker 3: lot quicker than you can at like a position like nickel,

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Speaker 3: which is where Jalen Ramsey. Now, the only caveat with

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Speaker 3: that is how much outside corner is he going to play?

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Speaker 3: Because I think you're paying him almost over twenty million

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Speaker 3: a year. You go look at what what does that

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Speaker 3: look like at the nickel market, And the nickel market's

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Speaker 3: really a little bit over ten million a year, and

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Speaker 3: we saw that last year with three high high caliber

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Speaker 3: Nickels getting what three year thirty million plus contracts, So

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Speaker 3: that is a little bit inflated. But if you're looking

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Speaker 3: at him more as like, hey, we plan on having

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Speaker 3: more of like a Devin Witherspoon type of deal with you,

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Speaker 3: where you're gonna play outside about seventy percent of time,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna play a little bit of dime and kick

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Speaker 3: you inside. I think then you justify that contract and

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Speaker 3: really elite corners are hard to find. I think him

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Speaker 3: being in a more zone based system helps him out

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Speaker 3: just because of with age and then his just document

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Speaker 3: around football and being able to play kind of that

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Speaker 3: zone based defense that Patrick Graham plays. So between those

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Speaker 3: two guys that would be that would kind of be

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Speaker 3: where I would settle.

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Speaker 2: So I just mentioned that, you know, three four four

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Speaker 2: three is twenty years ago speak, and I very much

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Speaker 2: believe that's true. But I think this is the easiest

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Speaker 2: way for our listeners to understand it is. I don't

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Speaker 2: believe Kean U Benton is by any means of nose tackle.

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Speaker 2: I think to me he's much more of a three

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Speaker 2: to four defensive end. Now I'm not suggesting they need

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Speaker 2: to go get Casey Hampton, but do you think this

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Speaker 2: new scheme would benefit from a more nosyish guy so

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Speaker 2: Benton could full fill the role. He's better to.

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Speaker 3: Play that or just shifting to more of a nickel

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Speaker 3: based defense where you're now in four down and so

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Speaker 3: now we can just play two guys on top of

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Speaker 3: the guard. Now I will I will say, you don't

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Speaker 3: want to get in a situation where you're like the

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Speaker 3: Bills and you have no nose on your roster and

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Speaker 3: you're just being getting gashed up the middle. But I think,

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Speaker 3: like you know, Ditton is one of those where he's

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Speaker 3: kind of the size of a nose, but he's really

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Speaker 3: more of a quick twitch guy. And then you even

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Speaker 3: look even further, like Derek Carmon is kind of in

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Speaker 3: the same boat where they're probably more of a you

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Speaker 3: really want them more on like an outside shade of

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Speaker 3: a guard than an inside shade of a guard. Uh.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I think that you can. You've seen too,

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Speaker 3: what are the elite defenses in the NFL within the

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Speaker 3: past couple of years. It's elite interior defensive play and

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Speaker 3: primarily having kind of a nose that can really hold it.

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Speaker 3: So I do agree with you at some point you've

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Speaker 3: got to figure that out. The three four, to your point,

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Speaker 3: is really more or less we're trying to get five

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Speaker 3: guys on the line scrimmage, and what you see more

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Speaker 3: or less is that if we're going to play a

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Speaker 3: lot of nickel, how can we get into those odd spacings,

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Speaker 3: which is we're clogging both of the begaps. We're putting

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Speaker 3: a body in those be gaps, and you have that

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Speaker 3: hybrid linebacker that can go down. You know, do you

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Speaker 3: have a guy like that with the Steelers or is

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Speaker 3: that even something that you want to do? So, I

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Speaker 3: do think without having some hybrid off ball guy, having

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Speaker 3: a guy that you can stick at those and live

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Speaker 3: in base defense, especially when you get more thirteen personnel

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Speaker 3: or you're getting twenty one personnel which is becoming popular again,

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Speaker 3: that really does help out your defense.

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Speaker 2: Two more things I got for you, I guess are

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Speaker 2: kind of related. I don't want to let you go.

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Speaker 2: We expected do you expect TJ Wat to not only

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Speaker 2: just move where he aligns? But it sure seemed like

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Speaker 2: they gave Max Crosby a lot of freedom to add

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Speaker 2: lib I've kind of like in a Troy polam Ali

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Speaker 2: way for a defensive lineman. Could Wat get those liberties?

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Speaker 2: And I guess my last question is they they probably

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Speaker 2: still will have a lot of middle of the field closed.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that a free ish safety is still

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Speaker 2: the sal that they're looking for for that middle of

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Speaker 2: the field player.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's start with Let's start with TJ. Watt.

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Speaker 3: I do think that one of the things that really

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Speaker 3: highlighted with when you have a star player and you

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Speaker 3: kind of let him do what he wants to do

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Speaker 3: and then we'll clean it up on the back end.

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Speaker 3: The thing that you have to understand with that, because

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Speaker 3: that seems like well man defensive ends kind of one

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Speaker 3: of those deals where you got to have a little

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Speaker 3: bit of gap integrity. Yeah. Max Crosby is just an

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Speaker 3: absolute monster in the run game. Him and Miles Garrett

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Speaker 3: to me, and I know I'm saying this on Steelers Radio,

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Speaker 3: but him as an outside observer, they're only reason why

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Speaker 3: those two guys like a Miles Garrett and a Max

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Speaker 3: Crosby are really one A and one B is because

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Speaker 3: of the way that they just absolutely kill the run

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Speaker 3: games of the opponents. I think, what to me can

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Speaker 3: have that ability, but it's more about he's kind of

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Speaker 3: more like a Bosa or it's really about the pass

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Speaker 3: rush and if the running back comes to me, I'll

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Speaker 3: tackle him on my way to the quarterback type deal.

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Speaker 3: But I do think to your point, there's some things

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Speaker 3: that you can do, whether it's keeping him to the

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Speaker 3: three technique all the time, so basically keeping him covered

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Speaker 3: so that he's always in a one on one with

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Speaker 3: the tackle, much like you saw like with Michael Parsons

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Speaker 3: in Dallas and then also in Green Bay of where hey,

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Speaker 3: we'll keep you covered. So you're essentially always going to

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Speaker 3: have to get a one on one, which is what

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Speaker 3: we want because we think you can win that whether

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Speaker 3: it is run or it is passed. So I do

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Speaker 3: think moving him around is probably more beneficial and at

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Speaker 3: defensive end, and really because he's not a big stimulated

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Speaker 3: pressure guy, so they're not going to be asking and

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Speaker 3: what what does that mean. They're not going to be

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Speaker 3: asking TJ. Watt to drop into coverage at volume, so

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Speaker 3: you're just not That's not something that Graham wants to do.

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Speaker 3: It's more of a five minute pressure and as you highlighted,

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Speaker 3: six minute pressure. Now this is one going to be

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Speaker 3: a closed post defense, so you will have a high safety.

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Speaker 3: So I do agree with you that you need to

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Speaker 3: find either a safety that can compliment I mean it

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Speaker 3: was year right and see that you basically what you

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Speaker 3: ended up having last year was kind of like two

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Speaker 3: hybrid guys that can have if we want to play

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Speaker 3: you down. You really didn't want Ramsey playing down a lot.

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Speaker 3: But I do think I do think when you do

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Speaker 3: run a lot of close posts, you need a guy

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Speaker 3: that's kind of your design made it down safety, and

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Speaker 3: then another guy that's kind of your designated post safety, Yes,

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Speaker 3: exactly where he can do multiple things. I think you

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Speaker 3: saw it too, a little bit with like the Bears

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Speaker 3: with Brisker and Buyer. Buyer was obviously the post. Brisker

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Speaker 3: was obviously the down but like you could flip it

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Speaker 3: and just kind of confuse people because they're like, well,

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Speaker 3: I always expected Brisker to be down here, and then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, he's the guy in the post. Okay,

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Speaker 3: what's what's going on? You need to be able to

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Speaker 3: have that change of ability. But I do think there's

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Speaker 3: not a lot of holes on his defense. It's more

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Speaker 3: or less like you just kind of need to clean

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Speaker 3: up the scheme, modernize the scheme a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: then kind of inject a little bit of juice in there.

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Speaker 3: And that would be one of those spots where I

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Speaker 3: think that you could you could really help yourself out.

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Speaker 2: All right, I got one more because true or false,

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Speaker 2: the Steelers gained a schematic advantage by the coaching changes

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Speaker 2: from last year.

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Speaker 3: I I think defensively yet and I guess offensively. Yes,

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Speaker 3: I do think, I do think, and I can highlight

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Speaker 3: this a little bit. Just because I live in Dallas here,

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Speaker 3: I've heard about Mike McCarthy forever. But I do think

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Speaker 3: too like you will have a little bit of more

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Speaker 3: more of a little bit more of an explosive offensive scheme,

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Speaker 3: or at least the scheme that you know you're going

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Speaker 3: to score points. I think defensively, there has been an update.

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Speaker 3: Much like the transition that you saw from Wink Martindale

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Speaker 3: to Mike McDonald with the Ravens, this is a system

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Speaker 3: that needs an update. We're seeing it's it's actually interesting.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of the reasons why eber Flues kind

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Speaker 3: of got kicked out of the league at this point

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Speaker 3: was because you're running the same defensive bit you ran

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Speaker 3: twenty years ago. You need to update it, right. We

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Speaker 3: see this with dan Quinn. Dan Quinn said, I've got

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Speaker 3: to update this. I've been running the peak demand centric

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Speaker 3: Pete Carroll system now for you know, twenty years. I

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Speaker 3: need to update it. I'm going to go with Dante Jones,

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Speaker 3: who's running you know, basically the base melted five thousand

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Speaker 3: defense in Minnesota. So it's like you changed in Indianapolis

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Speaker 3: this year, Yes, Indianapolis, right, and even Anna Arumo has

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Speaker 3: been trying to change, I mean trying to change his

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Speaker 3: defensive scheme as well. So you look around at some

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Speaker 3: of these older established guys and it's either either changing

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Speaker 3: and evolving or they're getting kicked out of the league.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the things that has

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Speaker 3: been needed. Is Okay, well you just switched from cover

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Speaker 3: one to Cover three and you're still running a lot

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Speaker 3: of the things. Now. I will have to give Tomlin credit.

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Speaker 3: They were running a little bit more quarters the past

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Speaker 3: couple of years, but it wasn't like a nuanced version

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Speaker 3: like you see in Robert Sala or even at Jeff

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Speaker 3: Ulbrick and some of these other guys that have come

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Speaker 3: from that Carol system that have kind of added quarters

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Speaker 3: into it. So I do think this is an update,

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Speaker 3: and I do think you're going to see a little

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Speaker 3: bit more nuanced. It's not going to be just kind

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Speaker 3: of that vanilla scheme that you've really become accustomed to

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Speaker 3: in Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, great stuff with Cody Alexander. Make sure you're checking

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Speaker 1: him out, match quarters dot com, Let's Talk Ball podcast,

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Cody, I know we kept

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Speaker 1: you a little bit longer than we thought, but that

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Speaker 1: was awesome.

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Speaker 2: Fault.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you you kept me on here. I

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Speaker 3: would have marriage.

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Speaker 1: This sounds good, hey man, thank you, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for for taking the time and take care you too.

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Speaker 3: Bye.

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Speaker 1: There he goes. Great stuff, Cody Alexander.

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Speaker 2: So for I know, we have some new listeners. So

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Speaker 2: that's a taste of what's coming at the combine is

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Speaker 2: when I start rolling with the guests, like I don't

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Speaker 2: want that really.

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Speaker 1: Fortunately, fortunately Matt and I got some uh you know,

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Speaker 1: we're like the I don't know the quarterback and the

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Speaker 1: wide receiver that just have to give each other the

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Speaker 1: glance and it's like, all right, I know where this

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Speaker 1: is going. Yeah, hold on, Matt's gonna put MAT's gonna

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Speaker 1: put the pedal to the metal here for a quick second.

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Speaker 2: I've been needing this answer for too long. It's making

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Speaker 2: me crazy. I need the answer.

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Speaker 1: Love it. I also love too. I mean, he did

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Speaker 1: a pretty good job, but a couple of times the

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Speaker 1: Texas twang came out there in his voice. He's got that,

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Speaker 1: he's got that Dallas. He's got that Dallas twang to him.

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Speaker 1: But great stuff from Cody Alexander again, match quarters dot com.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He's written six books on defense, puts out all kinds

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Speaker 1: of daily clips and podcast stuff. He is. He is

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Speaker 1: one of the brighter up and coming defensive analyst defensive

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Speaker 1: media minds, and thank him very much for the time

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Speaker 1: here with us today to talk a little Patrick Graham