Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to Joy one oh one the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that you're here. We are midsummer and
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about one on one time in life.
Speaker 1: You know how sometimes you do family vacations or family dinners,
Speaker 1: or you go with your friends, et cetera. And I
Speaker 1: did something last week where I took my sixteen year
Speaker 1: old niece on a little mini vacation, just the two
Speaker 1: of us, and we'd never done that before, and it
Speaker 1: was one of these spectacular vacations, not because of where
Speaker 1: we went or what we did, because we were together.
Speaker 1: And she asked me during the vacation, I was like,
Speaker 1: what was your favorite part? She said, oh, I love this.
Speaker 1: I love this. And then she said, well, what was
Speaker 1: your favorite part? And I said, my favorite part was
Speaker 1: watching you and watching her kind of come out of
Speaker 1: her shell, watching her blossom, listening to her talk about school,
Speaker 1: about life, about boys, about everything. And I realized, had
Speaker 1: it not been for that time together alone, we would
Speaker 1: have never had that conversation. She would have been seventeen,
Speaker 1: and then she would have gone off to college and then,
Speaker 1: you know, life rolls on. So it was a reminder
Speaker 1: to me, and just today, in fact, I'm in our office.
Speaker 1: My seven year old came here to my office to
Speaker 1: spend part of the day with me. So I think
Speaker 1: whenever we carve up time, which we all have to
Speaker 1: all the time, it's the way we live. But I
Speaker 1: think every now and then, taking out some time to
Speaker 1: do something individually, to do something one on one. And
Speaker 1: I feel like I learned stuff too. I'm not, like
Speaker 1: you know, miss aunt Hody, the advice giver. I feel
Speaker 1: like I was on the receiving end, and I learned
Speaker 1: a lot about her. I also learned that the less
Speaker 1: I talk, the more she talks. I learned that she
Speaker 1: has tons of wisdom my niece does. I learned that
Speaker 1: not everyone's going to be on my schedule. I like
Speaker 1: to get up early and exercise, and she kind of
Speaker 1: got up later. But I realized we met in the middle.
Speaker 1: So good advice is so important and it can come
Speaker 1: from everywhere. And I'm so excited about my next guest,
Speaker 1: because if you want to talk good advice, I've got
Speaker 1: two words for you. Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson Fisher. Okay, so
Speaker 1: some of you may know Jefferson Fisher already. He's a
Speaker 1: former trial attorney. He actually still is a trial attorney.
Speaker 1: But he started giving great life advice, advice about boundaries,
Speaker 1: about saying no, about how to ask for a raise,
Speaker 1: all these things. So, in his words, he started off
Speaker 1: as an atturne, which is an observer of people in
Speaker 1: a way to argue, and he realized that arguing doesn't win,
Speaker 1: but listening often does. So he said God kind of
Speaker 1: steered him into this other profession. I heard him on
Speaker 1: the Mel Robbins podcast and on Diary of a CEO
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other places, and now I can't
Speaker 1: unsee him, and I have this beautiful conversation with Jefferson.
Speaker 1: He taught me things. He has great advice. If you
Speaker 1: are in a relationship and not communicating, Jefferson Fisher is
Speaker 1: your guy. If you are concerned about how am I
Speaker 1: going to ask my boss for a raise? I'm too afraid.
Speaker 1: Jefferson Fisher is the guy. If you're somebody who's just
Speaker 1: trying to put some boundaries up because you're saying yes
Speaker 1: to everybody and you're like an empty vessel, Jefferson Fisher
Speaker 1: is your guy. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation
Speaker 1: with Jefferson Fisher. Okay, First of all, I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to be with you for multiple reasons. Number one, you're
Speaker 1: so funny because the minute I saw you somewhere on
Speaker 1: Insta or whatever, you're all I see now. Like it's
Speaker 1: like when I wanted to buy a Toyota Siena, all
Speaker 1: I could now all I ever see on the hume,
Speaker 1: Like there's another Oh my god, They're everywhere. So you're everywhere,
Speaker 1: which I think is so cool. Tell me about whether
Speaker 1: you hit the scene as kind of an explosion and
Speaker 1: then you're here or was it a slow build? Because
Speaker 1: if you're looking for advice on how to speak to people,
Speaker 1: how to be calm, all boundaries, you seem to have
Speaker 1: a ton of answers. So how did you make your
Speaker 1: emergence onto this onto this platform.
Speaker 2: Oh I started probably a little over three years ago
Speaker 2: or so, and I just an attorney and I'm still
Speaker 2: an attorney. My wife's an attorney. They're two young kids.
Speaker 2: And right around that time, I thought, well, I wanted
Speaker 2: I was at a big defense firm and I wanted
Speaker 2: to go off and do my own thing in my
Speaker 2: late twenties, like I can do this, and so at
Speaker 2: that time I thought, well, I need to be on
Speaker 2: social media, and so I started making videos shortly after
Speaker 2: on like what can I make that's just content for
Speaker 2: good in the world. You know, there's no shortage of
Speaker 2: good things in the world, So how can I just help?
Speaker 2: And I thought, well, people think that attorneys know how
Speaker 2: to argue, so I was like, how can I I
Speaker 2: made a video on how to argue like an attorney.
Speaker 2: But it was different than most people think. You know,
Speaker 2: instead of trying to win, is trying to understand. And
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of contrast there. And I
Speaker 2: gave advice on not only my own personal experience and
Speaker 2: a fifth generation attorney, so everybody in my family is
Speaker 2: an attorney, and then you know, if you've been married,
Speaker 2: if you have kids, there's a lot of lessons there
Speaker 2: my faith as well, and so I just started answering
Speaker 2: questions and I never in a million years old I
Speaker 2: thought this is where it would be. There was never
Speaker 2: a let me go online and this is what I'm
Speaker 2: working towards and art one, YEAHN have this no it
Speaker 2: in like I barely put some stuff out and then
Speaker 2: it just went nuts boom.
Speaker 1: Well, you have like almost seven million followers. I was
Speaker 1: looking at I was like, wait, what I mean? This
Speaker 1: is crazy, But I did have to go way back
Speaker 1: because I love to look for a commencement address. I
Speaker 1: always feel like that that's a real tell. And no
Speaker 1: matter who I interview, I'm like, I wonder if they've
Speaker 1: ever given a commencement address. Well, I saw one that
Speaker 1: you gave at your own school, and you were first
Speaker 1: of all adorable. Secondly your timing and your humor. So
Speaker 1: I know your advice works. But life, I feel like,
Speaker 1: especially in this field of communication, which I'm intimately familiar
Speaker 1: with too, it's like a lot of things are about
Speaker 1: timing and how you go about it. When you were
Speaker 1: a little kid, was this just one of your things,
Speaker 1: like you you had that thing, people laughed when you
Speaker 1: said things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was definitely. I was definitely a ham.
Speaker 2: You know, I see myself and my son now, who
Speaker 2: is the exact you know, exact same way. I put
Speaker 2: on a lot of little performances. I had like little
Speaker 2: mock trials and I did montrial even competitively in college.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was definitely something that's that's always kind
Speaker 2: of been there and to see this kind of turn
Speaker 2: into that path because a lot of it is also creative,
Speaker 2: in some sense of how you come up with videos
Speaker 2: and how can I distill things and make it really
Speaker 2: practical and digestible. And so it's funny how God's going
Speaker 2: to just use these gifts in a way that says, Okay,
Speaker 2: you started in law, but I'm going to.
Speaker 3: Switch you over to start this.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so it's it's just been a really full circle
Speaker 2: moment that I just never ever, you know, I feel
Speaker 2: like some people get you know, they climb towards something,
Speaker 2: and other people get pushed towards something. And that was
Speaker 2: definitely mine where I I just never I had a
Speaker 2: friend oda I'm not kidding. When I was on Instagram
Speaker 2: right before I started making videos at a friend who
Speaker 2: was another attorney, and he had a thousand followers on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and I was like, a thousand followers.
Speaker 3: How could you ever get a thousand followers?
Speaker 2: Because everybody I had was just friends from you know,
Speaker 2: high school, yeah, in law school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, your people. What I love about this is what's
Speaker 1: interesting to me about you is you're an attorney, and
Speaker 1: attorneys know how to argue or and as you said,
Speaker 1: now to understand the person your opposite, your opposite from.
Speaker 1: But I feel like the stuff you're talking about is
Speaker 1: nothing about that. I mean, it is about communicating, but
Speaker 1: it's really about life. It's about connecting, it's about understanding.
Speaker 1: It's more in your it's more like spirit and in
Speaker 1: your you know, being as opposed to how am I
Speaker 1: going to organize these thoughts so I can say it
Speaker 1: in the right way? I mean, so what some of
Speaker 1: the worst communicators I know I connect with soul to soul.
Speaker 1: You know, you feel the vibe. I mean there are
Speaker 1: certain people jeffersone and I walk in a room, I
Speaker 1: feel totally at ease. And there are some people I
Speaker 1: may or may not know them. I feel kind of
Speaker 1: like my back's up?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've had these kind of feelings in
Speaker 1: the courtroom and among friends. Why is it that there
Speaker 1: are people who instantly put us at ease? We're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I like that person. I don't know them, but I like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has something to do with part charisma. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's deeper than that, because charisma is not
Speaker 2: something you can exactly. You can you can say charismatic things.
Speaker 2: You can give compliments, you can you know, give things
Speaker 2: with with hunting instead of vinegar.
Speaker 3: Warmth is something different.
Speaker 2: Warmth is a is a feeling that needs no words,
Speaker 2: that they just all of.
Speaker 3: A sudden, your shoulders relax. If I were.
Speaker 2: To ask you, what's some in your past where you
Speaker 2: just you have to like? For me, I can go
Speaker 2: back to being in my grandparents' living room and I
Speaker 2: can feel the texture of the couch and I can't
Speaker 2: smell it, and I just know when my grandmother came in,
Speaker 2: she just put me at ease. Right, I just hey, baby,
Speaker 2: come here, come here, darling, like you're just you're good.
Speaker 2: And there's certain people in your life that whenever the
Speaker 2: world's really reactive, they they stay just steady. And you look,
Speaker 2: we're always looking for these anchors in personalities that when
Speaker 2: the ship's rocking, don't you don't want to go for
Speaker 2: the person who's really reactive. You're looking for the person
Speaker 2: who's really steady. And when they can bring that warmth
Speaker 2: that is it's just a glow about them that you go,
Speaker 2: I don't I can't put my finger on it, but
Speaker 2: there's something about their personality that says I'm safe, I'm welcome,
Speaker 2: and I'm enough. And when you find that person in
Speaker 2: your life, you cling to them because we know what
Speaker 2: it's like on the opposite, when there's that person that
Speaker 2: whenever you're around your anxiety spikes, you feel more. Everything
Speaker 2: just feels off kilter and you feel emotionally reactive.
Speaker 3: It's the people.
Speaker 2: That decide that they want to spend the time with you,
Speaker 2: and usually they're a lot slower and the way they enunciate, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's the cue.
Speaker 1: By the way, that's so interesting. I had an instant
Speaker 1: parenting thought when you said that, because there was one
Speaker 1: day My daughter Haley will never hear this, so what
Speaker 1: do I care? So she was throwing things in the
Speaker 1: trash that mattered to me. It was one of those
Speaker 1: days where she was in some kind of defiance. So
Speaker 1: there was a poem that I loved. She took it,
Speaker 1: dropped in the track, and I sat on the couch
Speaker 1: and I was calm, okay. Then she took my computer
Speaker 1: and put it in a trash can. I called. I
Speaker 1: sat there. It was like I was thinking about people
Speaker 1: who used to sit at lunch counters, not to compare,
Speaker 1: but quiet resistance. I'm like, I'm gonna be the eye
Speaker 1: of the hurricane right here. I'm gonna be hotally camped.
Speaker 1: And after about ten minutes, she pulled everything out. She
Speaker 1: came over on the couch, she sat with me, and
Speaker 1: she's cuddled with me and said, oh, you know, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: and then explained whatever was bothering her at the time.
Speaker 1: But do you use this in parenting because you have
Speaker 1: a six and eight year old? Yeah, and I know
Speaker 1: that that must be one of the things that helps.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's always knowing that for the most part,
Speaker 2: we're just big kids. And so like my daughter this morning,
Speaker 2: we're under a huge jet lag. My daughter is just
Speaker 2: in tears this morning, and there's no anything that she
Speaker 2: would typically like to eat.
Speaker 3: Besides, she now hates right and.
Speaker 2: She's short tempered, super whiny, and just like you, we
Speaker 2: could have come in and said you have to fall
Speaker 2: under what I say is acceptable and not acceptable. But
Speaker 2: with the children, it's the same when they were a baby.
Speaker 2: You know, when they're screaming, it's like you're not going
Speaker 2: to get mad that they're crying. It's you go, Okay,
Speaker 2: I see that they're hungry, they're tired, just those two
Speaker 2: right there, Yes, they're they're they're overwhelmed by something. It's
Speaker 2: the same for for us, and so it helps me
Speaker 2: so much and especially in my kids.
Speaker 3: I see so much of myself.
Speaker 2: In them that not only had me more getting more
Speaker 2: compassion for myself because it's like, why would I would
Speaker 2: I talk to my kids the same way I talk
Speaker 2: to myself, you know sometimes, And so that that does
Speaker 2: checks and balances of knowing that when she was starting
Speaker 2: complain and she didn't want the cereal bar that she loves,
Speaker 2: I was like, you need me to hold you? Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, I of course I'm holding her?
Speaker 3: Are we just sleepy?
Speaker 2: It's like that, right there is all they really need.
Speaker 2: And I think deep down a lot of times that's
Speaker 2: it really is. All it comes comes down comes down
Speaker 2: to it is we're still we're still looking for dealing
Speaker 2: with those basic needs.
Speaker 1: I think all the stuff you talk about when it
Speaker 1: comes to communication is so important because relationships fall apart
Speaker 1: because of bad communication. Work, relationships go sideways because of
Speaker 1: bad communication. I mean, you can and you think they
Speaker 1: understand you. You thought you communicated it, didn't you understand
Speaker 1: what I was saying when I said X? But will
Speaker 1: you talk to that point? Because I think some people
Speaker 1: have trouble being completely clear. They assume the man they're
Speaker 1: with should understand their feelings or the boss that they're
Speaker 1: dealing with, you know, should kind of get a B
Speaker 1: or C.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this quote that I love that it says
Speaker 2: the number one problem with communication is the illusion that
Speaker 2: it has taken place.
Speaker 1: That's so good.
Speaker 2: I think that is just gold because most of the time,
Speaker 2: the biggest cause of miscommunication is what was said was
Speaker 2: not the thing that was heard. Okay, like I said this,
Speaker 2: because you know what it's like in relationships, or somebody
Speaker 2: replies back to you and they go, that's not what
Speaker 2: I said, and you're like, yeah, that's exactly what you said.
Speaker 3: I wish I had it on camera.
Speaker 2: I wish I had this recorded so you could see
Speaker 2: exactly how you said it.
Speaker 3: And the truth is we are very bad.
Speaker 2: Subjective, you know, judges of how we say things. We
Speaker 2: hear it in our head, but we're not great at
Speaker 2: also accepting how it is.
Speaker 3: To receive it.
Speaker 2: Communication is not just something said, it is it also
Speaker 2: has to be received. And when you continue to give
Speaker 2: voice to only the unvoiced expectations and expect people to
Speaker 2: read between the lines, you were just setting yourself up
Speaker 2: for disappointment. Instead of saying, that's not what I said.
Speaker 2: Turn that into tell me, tell me what you heard,
Speaker 2: and tell me tell me what, tell me what you heard?
Speaker 3: What what am I missing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you stop to say, okay, there's a disconnect here,
Speaker 2: let's talk about the disconnect instead of me telling you
Speaker 2: how yeah numb you are, how much you don't care,
Speaker 2: how this is always you and you never listen. Instead
Speaker 2: of going towards the person, you say, okay, well, there
Speaker 2: must be a disconnect here.
Speaker 3: Help me.
Speaker 2: Let's stop and let's break it down. And though that
Speaker 2: sounds really simple to say, let's time out and let's
Speaker 2: talk about the process of how the communication is happening,
Speaker 2: rather than talking about the content of the communication. It
Speaker 2: sounds simple, but it is. It is everything. When you're
Speaker 2: able to break down and find where's the than not
Speaker 2: in the stream.
Speaker 1: By the way, when you just said the thing about hey, wait,
Speaker 1: tell me what you heard, my shoulders literally dropped down
Speaker 1: because we've all been in the wait what but difficult conversations,
Speaker 1: all of them. I mean, I don't know how many
Speaker 1: you've had in your lifetime. I've had a bunch too,
Speaker 1: where you have to have this conversation. But sometimes there's
Speaker 1: a philosophy at least it wasn't our family growing up?
Speaker 1: Is it will die on the vine eventually, so let
Speaker 1: it go. And you know, why are we going to
Speaker 1: rock the boat? Everything is fine? You know, in the
Speaker 1: course of all the problems, this one ain't so big,
Speaker 1: So we don't need to hash it out right. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people just dust things away. Why
Speaker 1: is it important to have these kind of conversations and
Speaker 1: when do they reach the level of, oh god, we
Speaker 1: have to have it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely something that is generational. I would say,
Speaker 2: I feel like here and now, in the times that
Speaker 2: we live in, communication is more talked about than it's
Speaker 2: ever been. Is that there's still that you know, hush,
Speaker 2: let's keep it under wraps. What would the neighbors think.
Speaker 2: We can't let people know, you know, how we really
Speaker 2: really are, or we don't want to bring it up.
Speaker 3: We don't want to ruin the moment.
Speaker 2: And we're all here together at this family thing because
Speaker 2: this grandparent is still alive, and we know once they're gone,
Speaker 2: we're all, you know, going our separate way. When when
Speaker 2: you have all these unvoiced things and you bury them,
Speaker 2: they are only sure to resurface years because we know
Speaker 2: what that's like of parent relationships, especially that it's there
Speaker 2: are people listening right now who don't probably communicate with
Speaker 2: their mom or their dad anymore because of all the
Speaker 2: things that was that were left unsaid like that, that
Speaker 2: misalignment in relationships, that miscommunication, that estrangement. It doesn't happen,
Speaker 2: and one fell sweep like one big conversation usually happens
Speaker 2: because all of these little bitty paper cut conversations where
Speaker 2: a conversation could have happened, but it didn't. And so
Speaker 2: when you leave it unvoiced, those things grow. So how
Speaker 2: do you know when to bring something up to me?
Speaker 2: It's always the next day rule. If I'm still carrying
Speaker 2: it the next day. If I'm still carrying it the
Speaker 2: next day, time has a way of sifting priorities. And
Speaker 2: so if something's bothering me right now, it may not
Speaker 2: bother me in the morning. But if I wake up
Speaker 2: and I'm still carrying it and it's still heavy on
Speaker 2: my heart, it's something that needs to be needs to
Speaker 2: be voiced. And when you can say, hey, I need
Speaker 2: to tell you something that's been heavy on my heart,
Speaker 2: people listen when you say I need to tell you
Speaker 2: something that's been tugging on my heart. There's something about
Speaker 2: when you invoke the heart's difference between hold and me
Speaker 2: asking and saying, hey, how are you doing and me
Speaker 2: or me asking hey, ho to how's your heart right,
Speaker 2: there's something about you're not going to get the same answer,
Speaker 2: And so whenever you invoke the heart, I think that
Speaker 2: has a way of getting right to the point of
Speaker 2: the conversation rather than sweep in it under the rug.
Speaker 1: So if when you said that, there are people who
Speaker 1: haven't spoken to their parents, their mom, their dad, they're sibling, somebody,
Speaker 1: a best friend from years gone by. How if that's
Speaker 1: the case and it's been a freeze out for you know,
Speaker 1: a while, how do you go about repairing If it's
Speaker 1: on your heart, which I'm sure it is. When people
Speaker 1: wake up and it's a birthday or it's whatever day,
Speaker 1: how do you even start the conversation of the process
Speaker 1: of thawing that.
Speaker 3: I like the word aw.
Speaker 2: I like to follow this approach that I teach, and
Speaker 2: it's one beginning with the words I know. It sounds
Speaker 2: like I know there's distance between us. I know we
Speaker 2: haven't spoken in a while. I know things aren't how
Speaker 2: we both want them to be, right, it's it's it's
Speaker 2: saying the already understated. You know it's all we already
Speaker 2: both know. We don't have to voice it. It's unspoken.
Speaker 2: Two is I'm not this is where you address, you
Speaker 2: forecast what they're already thinking about the conversation, the rebuttal,
Speaker 2: So it would be you know, I know there's a
Speaker 2: distance between us. I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm
Speaker 2: not bringing things, rehash old wounds. I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: It is I'm not your addressing that. And three is
Speaker 2: I'm ready, And it's not I'm ready to talk, because
Speaker 2: nobody probably wants to hear you talk.
Speaker 3: It's I'm ready to listen, right, Oh, I'm ready to listen.
Speaker 2: It's not i'm ready to talk. I'm ready to listen.
Speaker 2: And there's something about somebody saying I'm ready to listen
Speaker 2: makes them want to lean into it more because now
Speaker 2: you're an empty cup, right Instead of saying, hey, I
Speaker 2: have a full glass and I'm ready to splash it
Speaker 2: on you whenever you're ready, it's it's it's me saying, hey,
Speaker 2: I am I'm an empty vessel right now. I know
Speaker 2: things are not where we want them to be, and
Speaker 2: I am. I'm not at all interested in trying to
Speaker 2: rehash the past. I'm ready to listen whenever, whenever you are.
Speaker 2: And so there's something about that that incorporates that element
Speaker 2: of I can affirm how you feel without having to
Speaker 2: agree with it, and that must be hard. I can
Speaker 2: see why you feel that way. If that's how you
Speaker 2: interpreted it, of course you you would think that I
Speaker 2: am everything that you say that I am right now.
Speaker 2: And there's something about the contrasts that's going to make
Speaker 2: that conversation, you know, I have a better chance of
Speaker 2: coming to life.
Speaker 1: Would you have that convo in person or on the
Speaker 1: phone or does it? Does it matter?
Speaker 2: Ideally you want in person. There's nothing like seeing somebody
Speaker 2: face to face. There's there's nothing that can ever replace that.
Speaker 2: You know, face to face is the most high emotion
Speaker 2: medium that you have. Text is the lowest. You know,
Speaker 2: emails the lowest. I could tell you. If you ask
Speaker 2: me a question by text HODA and I just said okay,
Speaker 2: you'd be like, well, what kind of okay is that?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: Does he mad? Is he not? Is he think it's dumb? Yeah?
Speaker 3: You never know. Phone is also great.
Speaker 2: Some people don't give that chance because the other person
Speaker 2: just kind of ices them out. I think the voice
Speaker 2: texts are really good. Voice fails are good anything that
Speaker 2: they can hear your tone of your voice if you
Speaker 2: put it in words. Most often, unless it's a handwritten letter,
Speaker 2: which I think adds to that emotion character that is
Speaker 2: unique to you. But if it's something that is not unique, unique,
Speaker 2: such as text or email, then they will read they'll
Speaker 2: interpret your emotions for you, and it's never positive.
Speaker 3: They'll read it in the worst light.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking about this guy
Speaker 1: I was interviewing, and he said something about he goes,
Speaker 1: think of someone who you wanted to say thank you to,
Speaker 1: who you just haven't for whatever reason. He goes, I
Speaker 1: write them a letter, you know, and describe all the
Speaker 1: ways that you wanted to thank them. And then he said,
Speaker 1: and then I want to see you walk up to
Speaker 1: the door and ring the doorbell and read it, just
Speaker 1: read it right to them. And I was just imagining
Speaker 1: the feeling of someone walking up who you know, and
Speaker 1: it's like words unspoken, because we all carry sort of
Speaker 1: words unspoken. But I think back to the kind of
Speaker 1: difficult conversations, you know, I always weirdly feel better after one.
Speaker 1: I hate them when they're happening, You're like, this is
Speaker 1: the worst. My heart is pounding, I'm sweating, Like I
Speaker 1: just feel so bad. But what have you learned or
Speaker 1: what have I mean? With all the people you've you've
Speaker 1: been dealing with over time? What happens after you finally
Speaker 1: say whatever the thing is you've wanted to say for
Speaker 1: so long but have been holding on to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the moment the difficult conversation is over. If you
Speaker 2: handle it well with that exception, if you approach it
Speaker 2: with wanting to understand more than trying to prove, if
Speaker 2: you approach it in a way that's soft, softer, not
Speaker 2: just in demeanor but also in tone. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: you can't be assertive. Let's say you handle exactly how
Speaker 2: you want it to be. What I have found time
Speaker 2: and time again that the conflict they were so scared
Speaker 2: of was the very breakthrough that they were missing, that
Speaker 2: they were needing the most. And when you can't have
Speaker 2: that conversation with that brother you haven't seen in three years,
Speaker 2: or you can have that conversation with that supervisor or
Speaker 2: that difficult thing, you know you need to say to
Speaker 2: that spouse and you reach it and you're able to
Speaker 2: actually come together through that conflict because now you've now
Speaker 2: you've been through something, you've created trust. It's it's a
Speaker 2: weight off your shoulders. All of a sudden, you feel
Speaker 2: like you life looks better, right, relationships are better. I
Speaker 2: am somebody that truly believes that if you want to
Speaker 2: heal your relationships, it starts with the next conversation. I mean,
Speaker 2: you have you have that ability and how we communicate.
Speaker 2: And I rarely, if ever, whenever somebody has told me say, yeah,
Speaker 2: I tried it but it made it worse, it was
Speaker 2: usually not on their account. It was because the other person,
Speaker 2: you know, wasn't wasn't runny. And you can't control all
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: What if it's a street, I mean, you know some
Speaker 1: people are with spouses who are just setting their ways.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like someone was saying to me, like
Speaker 1: every few years you should reintroduce yourself to your spouse.
Speaker 1: Like I don't like Applebee's anymore. You see love it,
Speaker 1: and I don't eat there. I don't want to go
Speaker 1: sit in that same restaurant, but you always liked it,
Speaker 1: But you always like a jean jacket. It's like, I
Speaker 1: don't like a jean jacket. But if you know, if
Speaker 1: if you get to a point where your spouse is like,
Speaker 1: kind of, this is our relationship and this is life.
Speaker 1: You know, this is what, this is the way this
Speaker 1: and they're not open to this kind of discussion. What
Speaker 1: is a person to do? Because I have friends who
Speaker 1: are in that category. Their spouses don't really want to
Speaker 1: hear it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think there's a there's the key issue.
Speaker 2: It's whether they want to where they want.
Speaker 3: To hear it.
Speaker 2: It's hard to be in a relationship where you're the
Speaker 2: only one rowing you know, where you feel like you're
Speaker 2: your shoulders are just and there's probably people we both
Speaker 2: know their shoulders are getting a little tired. And there
Speaker 2: has to be to me two things. One is the
Speaker 2: ability to think outside of yourself, meaning to be able
Speaker 2: to repair when conflict and ruptures happen. And the second
Speaker 2: of all, you have to be able to take accountability.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the biggest issues in relationships,
Speaker 2: is where one person refuses to take accountability, so patterns
Speaker 2: just continue to continue to repeat. I can choose to
Speaker 2: have a very difficult conversation with you, Oda, and you
Speaker 2: may completely disagree, that's still something that within myself I
Speaker 2: still had that same amount of relief because I said it.
Speaker 2: I chose to say what I needed to say. And
Speaker 2: at some point there has to be which conversation am
Speaker 2: I going to take more? Which one ranks higher and
Speaker 2: priority the relationship and conversation I'm having with myself and
Speaker 2: who I am, or the conversation I have to have
Speaker 2: with you, And if I always have the conversation with
Speaker 2: you taking priority over the conversation with me, well, then
Speaker 2: I will always make sure that I'm not okay unless
Speaker 2: you're okay.
Speaker 3: Right. It's that's a much.
Speaker 2: More insecure way to approach it. I have my grandparents
Speaker 2: to do this thing where they have a yearly contract
Speaker 2: that they actually write out. Now it's not like enforceable
Speaker 2: or anything, but so they at their anniversary, they'll how
Speaker 2: they have like written things, you know, like who's gonna
Speaker 2: who's gonna handle the trash, who's gonna you know, this
Speaker 2: is how many times we're going to go on a
Speaker 2: date night, this is who's going to be responsible for this?
Speaker 2: And it's it's in humor, it's in fun of just
Speaker 2: how you said you're not always married to the same person.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can be married to the same human,
Speaker 2: but sometimes not always the same person. There were always
Speaker 2: changing and growing, and so they kind of do this thing.
Speaker 2: My grandfather will say, you sure, you.
Speaker 3: Want to go another round?
Speaker 2: And you know they made that, they'll sign it and
Speaker 2: kind of keep it.
Speaker 1: That's got to catch. I mean, sorry, that has got
Speaker 1: to catch. It's super cute. Let me ask you about
Speaker 1: conversations that have always been hard for me up until
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, I hate to say this, but
Speaker 1: like my mid fifties, I'm sixty one right now, my
Speaker 1: mid fifties, So all through my professional career, I have
Speaker 1: said thank you. I was hired at, you know, at
Speaker 1: my very first job, and I was making more working
Speaker 1: at Ponderosa, and I was happy to take the job
Speaker 1: because it was like, you know, it's like more of
Speaker 1: an education. But as it went through all these different
Speaker 1: jobs throughout, I knew I was underpaid with my co anchor,
Speaker 1: I was underpaid here and there. I was hired at
Speaker 1: Dateline and I was the lowest paid correspondent. I was
Speaker 1: making less than I did when I was in Local,
Speaker 1: but I wanted that job and every and this continued
Speaker 1: on and on and on, and when you start behind
Speaker 1: the eight ball, it takes a while to get to it.
Speaker 1: And I remembered once saying to my agents they said, well,
Speaker 1: this is all they're going to be paying. I go,
Speaker 1: I don't love it enough, so you know, ask for
Speaker 1: this number or we're not doing it. And it was
Speaker 1: when I finally got some moxie and the agent said,
Speaker 1: you know they're going to say no. I go, okay,
Speaker 1: Well you can ask. So she asked, and she said,
Speaker 1: oh my god, they said yes. I was like, okay.
Speaker 1: So the next time I knew where the bar was
Speaker 1: and it went on. But the conversation of this is
Speaker 1: what I'm worth, this is what I believe I bring
Speaker 1: to the table was extremely hard for me because I
Speaker 1: always felt lucky to be at the network, lucky to
Speaker 1: be here, sort of like wow. I was having pinch
Speaker 1: me moments up until the moment I left, like wow,
Speaker 1: how does this happen? So those kinds of conversations, whether
Speaker 1: you're in a room with your bosses, you're asking for
Speaker 1: a raise, you need, what X, whatever it is, how
Speaker 1: how to start those and how to have the confidence
Speaker 1: because you can say the words and not believe it
Speaker 1: and look like a scared you know, deer, and they're
Speaker 1: not gonna they're going to say come back later, not
Speaker 1: right now. It's not a good time, you know, those.
Speaker 3: Less awesome question.
Speaker 2: I think that whenever, especially you are let's say you've
Speaker 2: put in the work to establish yourself, whether in your
Speaker 2: resume or you're you know that you're going to be
Speaker 2: starting from somewhere, and eventually you've gotten too a place
Speaker 2: where you feel like, Okay, I got a lot under
Speaker 2: my wings here, and here's what I know. I feel
Speaker 2: like I am worth compared to what everybody else is doing.
Speaker 2: What I have found for those that I have guided
Speaker 2: through a lot of these situations is where you talk
Speaker 2: about the role more so of.
Speaker 3: Ego.
Speaker 2: Let's say you're wanting to hire somebody and you can
Speaker 2: either start talking about them as a person, or what
Speaker 2: I like to say is start talking about the role.
Speaker 3: So we have an.
Speaker 2: Assistance manager position, and this manager position is going to
Speaker 2: require this and this, and I'd love for that person
Speaker 2: to be you, and whoever's going to be in that
Speaker 2: role is going to need to do X, Y and Z.
Speaker 2: Now it works the same way, and here's The magic
Speaker 2: of it that I've seen is when I've seen people
Speaker 2: interview or have these discussions with their supervisors and say,
Speaker 2: whatever position, let's say they're trying to get into it. Now,
Speaker 2: this assistant manager's position that I'm going for, or whoever
Speaker 2: this slot is, or whoever I choose to work for,
Speaker 2: I need to see it's going to require X, Y
Speaker 2: and z from what I'm bringing to the table line.
Speaker 2: I know my value without having to go into it,
Speaker 2: because you already have my resume and all the RECs.
Speaker 2: Whatever that is is going to require X, Y and Z.
Speaker 2: And when you come into the conversation with requirements, people
Speaker 2: respect you more than if you have none. So when
Speaker 2: you come in with a level of I'm not talking
Speaker 2: like you know swagger, where you're saying.
Speaker 3: This is, this is, this is what I have to have.
Speaker 2: And this is what it's going to be, and you
Speaker 2: need to walk away. There's something about requirements that say,
Speaker 2: when I come into this, it's going to require this
Speaker 2: much of my time, this amount amount of money, this position.
Speaker 2: If I am too, if I'm going to I would
Speaker 2: hope that it would be this organization a right, whoever
Speaker 2: I work for, whoever I work for this role I'm
Speaker 2: going to fill is going to be X, Y and
Speaker 2: Z for me to fill it. I would love for
Speaker 2: that organization to be me.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: Uh, that's a good flip exactly.
Speaker 2: And so it makes them think, oh wow, Okay, one,
Speaker 2: this person has confidence. One second, I know they've definitely
Speaker 2: believe in themselves. And if they believe in themselves and
Speaker 2: makes me believe in them, yeah, and then three man,
Speaker 2: I don't want them to go off to somebody else. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so they they tend to get to the yesses
Speaker 2: more quickly than if you come in and you know, well,
Speaker 2: I really hope it would be really nice. If no,
Speaker 2: you need to you need to come in with I
Speaker 2: know what I'm worth, I know what I've done. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I'd hope that this would be the organization.
Speaker 3: If not, you know, I have some other stuff talking
Speaker 3: to too.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's okay, Oh I like that. What about because
Speaker 1: and this is kind of in the same vein, but
Speaker 1: being heard in a meeting, being heard when you are
Speaker 1: somebody who's you know, it's a big group setting and
Speaker 1: you and a lot of women who are listening to
Speaker 1: this I'm sure have heard this have had this feeling
Speaker 1: is you're saying something and it's you know, your voice
Speaker 1: is softer, whatever, you don't get sick, and then they
Speaker 1: call on the other guy who's next to you, or
Speaker 1: you say something and someone else repeats it, and then
Speaker 1: they're like, great job Bill. Yeah, like I just said
Speaker 1: that literally one second ago. But how do you cut
Speaker 1: through as how do you cut through in a in
Speaker 1: a meeting so that you can feel confident enough to
Speaker 1: state what you want to state and you know, make
Speaker 1: sure that you're heard.
Speaker 2: So first would be you want to grab attention, so
Speaker 2: what that is you grab in the mic? The second
Speaker 2: of all, you want to add curiosity to make them
Speaker 2: want to listen. And three, once you have that attention
Speaker 2: and that curiosity, then you need to lead with authority.
Speaker 2: So this would to me is what it would sound like.
Speaker 2: You get people's intention when you use their name in
Speaker 2: a very steady tone, not like as if you're asking permission.
Speaker 2: Like if I were to ask you, you know, can
Speaker 2: you pass assault HODA? I wouldn't ask you like can
Speaker 2: you pass the salt? Like as if you don't know
Speaker 2: what it is? Like you you have to say it
Speaker 2: in a tone because there's some people, let's say I
Speaker 2: needed to interrupt you and you're talking in a meeting
Speaker 2: or there's a there's a chance for me to communicate,
Speaker 2: And I was like, Hoda, Like people will be like
Speaker 2: huh as if you're more insecure, but like, Hoda, right, second,
Speaker 2: all is you need to add contrast by that, I
Speaker 2: want you to say I see something different, or I
Speaker 2: take another approach, or I get there a different way,
Speaker 2: and people go, oh, okay, what is what is what
Speaker 2: is that exactly? Because if I just led with you know,
Speaker 2: you know what, I have a I have a thought here,
Speaker 2: they're like another thought, like, that's that's not going to
Speaker 2: do anything.
Speaker 3: We all have thoughts.
Speaker 2: I need to hear that you have something that's going
Speaker 2: to move the conversation, the discussion forward. Once you have
Speaker 2: that three, anything you can use around the word direction.
Speaker 2: Direction is a great captain word. And so when I
Speaker 2: can say, you know, Hoda, I you know what, I
Speaker 2: get there a different way to me, I see the
Speaker 2: direction of.
Speaker 3: What we can do is blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: And so what you're saying is, hey, if while I
Speaker 2: have the wheel of the ship, this is the direction
Speaker 2: that I would take. And at that moment, it allows
Speaker 2: people to go, okay, do we want to follow that
Speaker 2: direction and take it there or do we want to
Speaker 2: continue to open the discussion, but it's going to keep
Speaker 2: it prevent it from somebody just going okay, that.
Speaker 3: Was that was dumb. Let's let's move that aside. Another
Speaker 3: that I really love.
Speaker 2: A quick little tip that I teach is if you
Speaker 2: can use percentages. There's something about percentages or maybe depending
Speaker 2: on the context you're in, maybe like an analogy. So
Speaker 2: for example, if you come in and say, hey, I
Speaker 2: have an idea, most people will shoot it down because
Speaker 2: it's not their idea, right, so they want to they
Speaker 2: want to point out all the holes in it rather
Speaker 2: than do an awesome job. But if you come in
Speaker 2: and say, hey, look, I have about sixty five percent
Speaker 2: of an idea here, I need your help with the
Speaker 2: other thirty five, people all of a sudden go oh okay,
Speaker 2: let's you know. The type is that, yeah, they want
Speaker 2: to go over the thirty five percent because now there
Speaker 2: they see that as the challenge to meet.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting. Yeah. Or if you say, look, I think
Speaker 3: I'm in the red zone.
Speaker 2: I need I need help kind of pushing it into
Speaker 2: the end zone here, there's something about using analogies that
Speaker 2: say I need your help rather than saying, you know what,
Speaker 2: I don't really know here.
Speaker 3: You know, I could totally be wrong. Get rid of it.
Speaker 1: It's over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you want to you want to push the
Speaker 2: conversation forward.
Speaker 1: Oh, speaking of that language, I was meeting with this
Speaker 1: CEO coach because I'm I run this company now called
Speaker 1: Joy one oh one, and I haven't you know, I've
Speaker 1: worked in capacities of leadership, but never as a boss
Speaker 1: or a CEO. So this guy gave me some advice,
Speaker 1: which sounds kind of like what you were just saying.
Speaker 1: We were having a conversation and I was like, he
Speaker 1: was like, tell me about this, that and the other.
Speaker 1: What's what's good, what's upsetting? What's this?
Speaker 5: What's that?
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, So I started. I was like,
Speaker 1: I was kind of upset about X and I was
Speaker 1: sort of have a why, and I was a little
Speaker 1: bit pissed by it. And so after I was telling
Speaker 1: him this whole thing, he goes, stop. I go, but
Speaker 1: he goes, you were kinda pissed. I go, yeah, he goes, no, No,
Speaker 1: you were pissed, It's okay, you were sort of upset. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you were upset, and he said, start pulling out those words.
Speaker 1: He goes in your language, don't he goes, don't stop
Speaker 1: dead and go oh god, there it is again. He
Speaker 1: was just recognized, Oh there it is. Oh there goes.
Speaker 1: And then I started looking through This is so funny, Jefferson.
Speaker 1: I was looking through my old text texts. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Hey, it was like if I pulled
Speaker 1: out all those words and I saw afterwards, it's so like,
Speaker 1: it's so much clearer, A you know, what direction I
Speaker 1: were going is clear when I take out all of that. Hey,
Speaker 1: I was wondering if a bubba. But when you're finished
Speaker 1: with this and don't worry if you know. And then
Speaker 1: by the time you're done, they're like, is that a
Speaker 1: priority or not? The person receiving it like, I don't
Speaker 1: get it. But words like that do right?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes a million times yes, especially the the adverbs, the
Speaker 2: words that end in l y uh. So many people
Speaker 2: will begin their sentence, you know, it's their time to
Speaker 2: talk in the meeting, and they go so basically, uh
Speaker 2: that it's it's you've already cut yourself down.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Why do we hate that? Why is that a no?
Speaker 2: It's it slows down the pros. Yeah, it's not it's
Speaker 2: not needed if I say, well, clearly, well, if it
Speaker 2: was clear, you wouldn't need that word.
Speaker 3: If it was well obviously, well it was obvious, you
Speaker 3: wouldn't have to state it.
Speaker 2: And so when we think of the l y words
Speaker 2: or the other adverbs like just like so very really,
Speaker 2: why can't you just be happy for them? Why do
Speaker 2: you have to say I'm so happy for it's there's
Speaker 2: something about the filling it with fluff. So imagine if
Speaker 2: I wanted to come in and said, you know, hey, just
Speaker 2: just wanted to check on you, just just saying hi.
Speaker 2: Instead of that, I said, I leaned into it and said, hey,
Speaker 2: I wanted to say hi to you, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Like it's something about stepping into the language rather than way.
Speaker 2: And to me, I compare it to adding ice cubes
Speaker 2: to your your drink. They're like, you know, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sort of I'm kinda you know, I'm not really, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're you're filling your senence. You're watering down your message
Speaker 2: to me. You got you just you don't need them.
Speaker 2: Get rid of them, Serve your words, rid of them, Yes,
Speaker 2: serve you serve your words.
Speaker 1: Neat is that one of your t shirts?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I should.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, with a little bourbon cup, we could
Speaker 1: see the whole thing. It's it's all I love that.
Speaker 1: I love that. You know, there are certain people for
Speaker 1: me who are like energizing too, like I when I'm
Speaker 1: around that, my cup fills up too. And there are
Speaker 1: certain people who are you they're sort of depleting. You know,
Speaker 1: that's just when you're done, you hang up the phone.
Speaker 1: We've all had the person you hang up and you go,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like you don't just but this always
Speaker 1: brings up boundaries because sometimes you gotta you know, you
Speaker 1: gotta have conversations, maybe not all of them you want to,
Speaker 1: but talk if you would, about what's eight Like I
Speaker 1: like to call them loving boundaries, but putting boundaries up
Speaker 1: so that the world and people don't kind of drain
Speaker 1: your battery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, boundaries. I mean there's something that you cannot do without,
Speaker 2: especially in conversation, whether it's something that's a very loving
Speaker 2: relationship to your you know, in the in the office
Speaker 2: and you're having to make it very clear where you
Speaker 2: stand on things. How I like to talk about boundaries
Speaker 2: is a very simple formula because it can get really
Speaker 2: there's so much on boundaries.
Speaker 3: That's easy to get lost.
Speaker 2: To me, it is simply putting the boundary in place
Speaker 2: of me, I beginning with the word I, So instead
Speaker 2: of you you can't talk to me that way, instead
Speaker 2: of that which is only ensuring that they have all
Speaker 2: the control. Instead, I'm going to say, I don't respond
Speaker 2: to that tone. I don't respond to disrespect. When somebody
Speaker 2: raises their voice, I don't respond to that volume. Right,
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with them, has everything to
Speaker 2: do with me. As if my own operator's manual. If
Speaker 2: you want to communicate with me, this is this is
Speaker 2: the yeses and the nose. If if it's a no,
Speaker 2: then we're not going to communicate that way. That's that's
Speaker 2: how that's going to go. So it would be you know,
Speaker 2: I don't respond to disrespect if you continue to speak
Speaker 2: to me in this manner or in this way. And
Speaker 2: third is this is the end of the conversation. That's
Speaker 2: how I like to put it, because when you say
Speaker 2: the end of the conversation, what happens is if they
Speaker 2: want to talk and continue the conversation, then it is
Speaker 2: incumbent on them to change the attitude and so whenever,
Speaker 2: even with my kids, and I do it very lovingly
Speaker 2: and I'll say, look, I'm not going to respond to
Speaker 2: that rude answer. Okay, if if you want me to
Speaker 2: come play with you, if you if you don't change,
Speaker 2: I'll say, if you don't change how you're talking to me,
Speaker 2: then I'm not gonna be able to come play with
Speaker 2: you right now.
Speaker 3: And I mean just all of a sudden, they change
Speaker 3: it right into.
Speaker 4: The that that that mood or whatever it is, and
Speaker 4: it goes all the way elevated to plenty of times
Speaker 4: I've been on the phone, like I know, it's like
Speaker 4: to hang up the phone go oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Yeah with that that.
Speaker 2: Person, and it's like, hey, look, I don't respond being
Speaker 2: spoken to that way. If this is the way that
Speaker 2: you want to handle things, and this needs to be
Speaker 2: the end of the conversation. And the best thing about
Speaker 2: it is if you're going to have that consequence, you
Speaker 2: are going to hang up. You can't you don't just click,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't just hang up, right, That's that's
Speaker 2: not the assertive way to do it.
Speaker 3: You need to speak it out loud.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to end the conversation or I'm
Speaker 2: gonna I'm going to leave the room now, I'm going
Speaker 2: to get out of the car.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 2: There's something about calling your shot you're in a game
Speaker 2: of pool that says what I say, I'm going to do,
Speaker 2: I'm going.
Speaker 3: To to do.
Speaker 2: It's you know, it's it's like it's calling calling backboard,
Speaker 2: you know, and you when you make a shot.
Speaker 1: That's so good. This is good. So I was just
Speaker 1: as you were talking, it was just not that I was.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how your life must have changed
Speaker 1: since all of this has happened to you. Just how
Speaker 1: weird is it? Like what is happening with your life
Speaker 1: now that people probably recognize you and say, like, what
Speaker 1: is life like for you?
Speaker 2: Uh, it's a lot of it's trying to get settled, Hoda.
Speaker 2: I mean it it is weird.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: It is weird to to imagine making videos only in
Speaker 2: your car for you know, a year and a half
Speaker 2: and not seeing any human and then yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: a whole it's a whole thing that I've I've learned
Speaker 2: that as soon as you get a taste of fame,
Speaker 2: you got to spit it out like it's not it's
Speaker 2: it's it's not great for I've I've learned the mistakes
Speaker 2: of trying to think that you have to say yes
Speaker 2: to everything because you never know if it's going to stop,
Speaker 2: and like when is the ride going to stop when?
Speaker 3: And at this point I've.
Speaker 2: I've learned how to say no and find out here
Speaker 2: this is what I've learned how to is what I
Speaker 2: used to do was I would think in my mind
Speaker 2: that what's best for the business is best for the family.
Speaker 2: And I have learned through pain and hardship and learned
Speaker 2: it the hard way. A flip you have to flip
Speaker 2: it of what's best for the family is what's best
Speaker 2: for the business. And so trying to figure out this
Speaker 2: whole world that I'm in, and I know you and
Speaker 2: I have mutual friends in this space of how do
Speaker 2: you do this? I mean, there's no I went to
Speaker 2: law school where I studied how to be an attorney,
Speaker 2: and then I'm in this world where I never even
Speaker 2: thought this was an occupation when it existed. And so
Speaker 2: even if my future self came and warned me, I
Speaker 2: don't think I wouldn't be able to believe them, because
Speaker 2: there's not like a blog that says, Hey, your whole
Speaker 2: life blew up online. Here's what to do, what to
Speaker 2: do right, it seems. Yeah, And the biggest thing is
Speaker 2: knowing and telling people of I make plenty of mistakes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my thing is not at all. I can't tell you
Speaker 2: how to be perfect. I can tell you how to
Speaker 2: fix it when it doesn't because I've done it myself.
Speaker 1: Well. You know what's so interesting because when there is
Speaker 1: any public facing life, or I shouldn't even say public facing,
Speaker 1: anyone who's got an all consuming career or busy career life,
Speaker 1: and this happens. Happened to me a lot, which is
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I decided to step away
Speaker 1: when my kids were at the age that they are,
Speaker 1: which is now seven and nine. Is that from the morning,
Speaker 1: from the beginning of the day three thirty am until
Speaker 1: probably four pm when you end up coming home, which
Speaker 1: is around dinner time for them, for thirty five you've
Speaker 1: given every ounce of stuff you had away all day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I was even saying, you know, Ben Sass was
Speaker 1: talking about this in one of his interviews the Congressman.
Speaker 1: He said, I used to think it was like a
Speaker 1: badge of Bonnat'll have a whole bunch of hotel keys
Speaker 1: to show all the places I've been. I would save
Speaker 1: him and save them and save them. Where he was
Speaker 1: giving all of his time and effort, which was to work,
Speaker 1: and I felt the same to work. And then when
Speaker 1: you come home and your kids like hey, you're like hi,
Speaker 1: You're already barely functioning and you got nothing left in
Speaker 1: the tank. So this doesn't have to do with anyone
Speaker 1: who's in a form, you know, a job that is
Speaker 1: public facing or not. It's any job or anything. When
Speaker 1: you're at a juice at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: So what's what do you do? I guess you just
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of just shifting the whole game.
Speaker 2: Yes, I like I said, I learned the hard way
Speaker 2: after the book launched last year in March, in the reception,
Speaker 2: and like it was just you know, I took time
Speaker 2: off last July and August to fix myself because anytime
Speaker 2: you're more public facing, in my view, it boosts all
Speaker 2: the good and it also boosts all the bad. And
Speaker 2: so whatever was a bad habit then becomes a much
Speaker 2: bigger bad. Like everything incrementally is harder. The good is
Speaker 2: really good and the bad's really bad, and so you
Speaker 2: have to you have to be able to learn how
Speaker 2: to manage and work on that because to me, what
Speaker 2: you said is exactly spot on. That's it answers the
Speaker 2: question of who's who's getting the best of me? And
Speaker 2: is it everybody that's online, you know on social media,
Speaker 2: or who you're speaking to, or is it you know,
Speaker 2: your family or your kids who's getting the best version?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 2: Why in the world would I ever give kids the
Speaker 2: second best version.
Speaker 3: Myself?
Speaker 1: And so you had to do a realignment.
Speaker 3: Yes, to do a total realignment, And I think.
Speaker 1: Anyone can do some like I get it because I
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I always think this about Olympic athletes,
Speaker 1: like you can't be great at something and be balanced.
Speaker 1: Someone Biles and Michael Phelps weren't worrying about balance. They
Speaker 1: were just worrying about being really, really good, and they were.
Speaker 1: And then in life, you know, when things start to
Speaker 1: then things shift and you can you know, now Michael
Speaker 1: Phelps has other things and someone bials the same. But
Speaker 1: it's hard to be great and have all the things
Speaker 1: that you want. And I think sometimes people choose, and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, many many times people will choose
Speaker 1: the workpiece, because the workpiece is giving them the money
Speaker 1: for the vacations, and the workpiece is giving them all
Speaker 1: that stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very like cats in the cradle kind of thing.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: I think I do understand and appreciate how when you're
Speaker 2: in the grind and you you you feel like.
Speaker 3: Who am I?
Speaker 2: If I am not this or what I've always dreamed
Speaker 2: I could be or what this has been my one ambition?
Speaker 2: And I forgot who said it, but it was it
Speaker 2: was like the study that we're very bad at predicting
Speaker 2: how we're going to feel after something, and so for
Speaker 2: good or bad. So if we think we're going to
Speaker 2: get that Olympic medal or that promotion and we get it,
Speaker 2: we kind of don't feel as good as we thought
Speaker 2: we would. And then also for the bad one, it's like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: this could never happen. If my marriage fails, if if
Speaker 2: I ever get fired, it'd be worse. And then it
Speaker 2: happens and you're like, this wasn't that bad?
Speaker 1: You know, it's that's actually such that's so smart.
Speaker 2: And so we're all we're just not good predictors of
Speaker 2: certain events in our.
Speaker 3: In our life. And so for me, I have to
Speaker 3: go I could.
Speaker 2: Am I inconveniencing my family for my comfort and my ego?
Speaker 2: Am I inconveniencing somebody else? Am I putting? You know,
Speaker 2: there's certain things of like there might be somebody listening
Speaker 2: right now and they go, Okay, well, I really want
Speaker 2: to go do this, and I feel like I need
Speaker 2: to ask, you know, put my other person, my partner,
Speaker 2: in the position of like, hey, can I go do this?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And you know you're you should have never even put
Speaker 2: them in that position to have to say yes, Like
Speaker 2: you should have just chosen the family yes. And that
Speaker 2: takes that takes time, yes, and and and diligence. And
Speaker 2: so I can tell you it's it's been such a blessing.
Speaker 2: I would to be able to touch the people we've
Speaker 2: been able to touch.
Speaker 3: It's it's just a never ending feeling.
Speaker 1: I am so happy for your success. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: for all the things that you're creating in your putting
Speaker 1: good out in the world. And I always feel like
Speaker 1: we have one ride around the sun, might as well
Speaker 1: put good stuff out into it. I heard you with
Speaker 1: Thomas RhD. I love Thomas so much on your podcast,
Speaker 1: so I encourage everyone to listen to Jefferson's podcast. I
Speaker 1: heard you on the Diary of a CEO. I saw
Speaker 1: you with Mel Robbins. I mean, people now after saying this,
Speaker 1: are going to be like, oh my god. I see
Speaker 1: Jefferson everywhere just like me. So I just want to
Speaker 1: end with one final question before you head off. This
Speaker 1: podcast is called Joy one oh one, so I like
Speaker 1: to ask all my guests about what is bringing them joy.
Speaker 1: I know you just got off a bender a flight
Speaker 1: from Australia, so probably sleep would be up there. But
Speaker 1: but what's bringing you joy these days?
Speaker 3: What's bringing me joy is knowing that.
Speaker 2: My kids, it's just my kids, to be able to
Speaker 2: say no to things and say yes to them, and
Speaker 2: my wife and to like we we did the strip
Speaker 2: in Australia, and I did it so much differently from
Speaker 2: the time that we traveled and did London, and I
Speaker 2: was so focused on publicity and press and do and
Speaker 2: I just we did it so differently where I just
Speaker 2: got any dad and be pressed and and my phone
Speaker 2: is full how full of pictures and videos and it's
Speaker 2: just the biggest joy that I can't It's hard for
Speaker 2: me not to look at one of my kids and
Speaker 2: just tear up, and that's that feeling of knowing that
Speaker 2: it could have been different, and I could have cared,
Speaker 2: you know, about a whole different path. But to me,
Speaker 2: it's just it's it's bringing this into a moment of
Speaker 2: so much your joy, of of of peace. It's it's
Speaker 2: it's been, it's been wonderful, and truly I look forward
Speaker 2: to to would love to you for you to be
Speaker 2: a mentor to me of how how to how to
Speaker 2: deal with that eight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you seem to be doing a pretty pretty
Speaker 1: good job, Telsey or I said, hello, and your kids too. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, thank you Jefferson. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thanks Forded.
Speaker 1: Okay, that was a beautiful conversation. I love Jefferson so much.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're friends already. One thing that I'm
Speaker 1: kind of learning is how to slow down, how to
Speaker 1: like not rush through life, how to not rush through
Speaker 1: important conversations like Jefferson was saying, just how to slow
Speaker 1: down and observe so on our joy one oh one.
Speaker 1: App you guys, I was listening to this incredible woman
Speaker 1: who for just two or three minutes showed me how
Speaker 1: to slow down. Her name is Anna Katsis and She
Speaker 1: lives in Greece and she works with us at Joy
Speaker 1: one oh one. But what she does is she just
Speaker 1: captures life small moments. So sit back for a second,
Speaker 1: take deep breath first, and let's listen to Anna Katsis.
Speaker 5: This is the story of someone who has learned to notice.
Speaker 5: I used to feel that life moved by too quickly,
Speaker 5: and I realized it was up to me to slow
Speaker 5: it down, to create time to pause. I started by
Speaker 5: noticing small things, like the way the leaves look when
Speaker 5: the sunlight hits them, the golden color that washes over
Speaker 5: when the sun rises, how the birds sound as the
Speaker 5: world wakes up. I started to notice things in my routine,
Speaker 5: like how much I love starting my day with a
Speaker 5: warm cup of tea using herbs from the garden and
Speaker 5: boiling it in the kettle, adding honey that a beekeeper
Speaker 5: made not too far from my village, and sipping it
Speaker 5: slowly while gazing out the window, imagining what the day
Speaker 5: could hold. I noticed how beautiful it is to sit
Speaker 5: and watch my curtains gently flowing in the breeze. How
Speaker 5: happy I am to see my cat every day when
Speaker 5: I opened the doors to feed him, the way he
Speaker 5: follows me to his bowl. How calming it is to
Speaker 5: pet him and just observe what he does the way
Speaker 5: he also observes me as I tend to the garden
Speaker 5: to water it. The more I slowed down, the more
Speaker 5: I noticed, and I realized how much beauty lies in
Speaker 5: everyday life, in the ordinary. And so if there's one
Speaker 5: thing I recommend, it's to take a moment to pause
Speaker 5: and look around you, because that's when the magic happens.
Speaker 5: That's when the ordinary becomes extraordinary.
Speaker 1: Beautiful words of wisdom. Hope you enjoyed. Thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to Joy when I won the podcast