WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 29th, 2023 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.640 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.520 Hi everyone, Happy New Year, and welcome to the Bloomberg 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.040 Business Week Weekend Podcast. As we head into twenty twenty four, 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.880 we'll look at what's ahead in the world of business, tech, 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.720 and society more broadly, while also reflecting on some of 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.600 the biggest stories of the year that was. We begin 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.040 with one of the major themes of twenty twenty three, 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.400 the rapid emergence of artificial intelligence. The job networking platform 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.479 LinkedIn estimates that these skills needed for jobs are expected 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.760 to change by at least sixty five percent by twenty 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.960 thirty as AI accelerates workplace change. Bloomberg News Deputy team 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.680 leader for US Equities, Jess Manton, and I recently caught 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.240 up with LinkedIn Chief operating Officer Dan Shapiro, who joined 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.520 us to discuss his predictions and big ideas for the 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.880 job going forward. And you'll recall that LinkedIn is a 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.680 business unit of Microsoft, which gives Dan and his team 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.440 keen insight into the application that has taken tens of 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.720 millions of us by storm. Well, artificial intelligence has been 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:12.880 transforming the workplace. 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:13.880 We know that, Jess. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.040 It's also been transforming in this stock market. I mean, 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.479 look at what the vidiot has done so far this year. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.360 Plus we got the likes of Microsoft and Alphabet higher 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.000 as a result of people being bullish when it comes 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.399 to AI. By the way, LinkedIn is estimating that the 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.560 skills needed for jobs are expected to change by at 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.959 least sixty five percent by the year twenty thirty. This 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.279 AI accelerates workplace change. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:37.640 Wow. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:38.200 Yeah. 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.880 Joining us is LinkedIn Chief operating Officer Dan Shapiro, who 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.360 joins us on Zoom from Mountain View, California. We like 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.200 checking in with Dan every few months, particularly at the 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.760 end of a year, because LinkedIn is out with some 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.160 predictions about what twenty twenty four is going to look like. Dan, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:54.880 Good to have you back. How are you good. 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:55.720 It's great to be here. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.600 Yeah, it's really good to have you with us. Hey, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.160 before we get to predictions, can it give us so 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.080 where we are in terms of jobs in the economy 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.160 Because the bond market and the equity market are certainly 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.239 telling us one thing, and that's a soft landing is coming. 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.880 What is the data at LinkedIn, which you have a 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:13.280 plethora of tell. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.680 Us, Well, the labor market remains pretty tight, at least 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.440 within the professional ranks on a global basis, and obviously 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.519 that varies quite a bit by sector and by industry. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.800 You've seen a number of tech companies, particularly private tech companies, 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:28.800 pull back, but then if you go into sectors like 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.640 healthcare or services, those businesses continue to grow. 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.840 So it's been a pretty big mix. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.440 But I think perhaps one of the most interesting trends 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.840 has been that people moving jobs and switching between companies 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.920 has come down by quite a bit, so many companies 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.320 are experiencing attrition at a historical low. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:50.960 Now. 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.519 The interesting thing about attrition is that it's like water 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.320 behind a dam. It always tends to pay off at 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.560 some point. So I think it's pretty likely that sometime 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.040 in the next twelve months you'll see attrition or just 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.440 movement of professionals between companies to start to come back up, 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.600 and more people will open up and look at new 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:11.760 job opportunities. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.280 That's really interesting. It's coming on the back of what 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.560 we saw and that latest jewel support that fell below 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.480 nine million. It had been pretty elevated still is. So 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.880 that's pretty interesting. Giving that backdrop there, What do you 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.960 think are some of the biggest concerns among jobs switchers 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.160 at this point, because we talked so much about when 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.440 it comes to even though inflation coming down though, but 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.080 that wage growth still strong. So obviously you would think 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.200 that's helpful for people who want us switch jobs. What 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:41.720 wo does the wage picture tell us? 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:42.400 Well? 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.200 I think when the future is uncertain, you hold onto 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:49.080 your chair. You want to make sure you have stability 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:50.960 in your life, when it feels like the world around 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.760 you is a little more chaotic, and so I don't 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.320 think it's surprising that as the economic backdrop has been 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.200 a little bit less certain, a little more opaque, that 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.120 people have tried to really stay true to the job 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.080 that they already have. But as people get more confident 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.800 in the future, as the economy starts to pick back up, 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.720 as the soft landing perhaps comes into clearer view, I 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.120 think people will open up again. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.400 Hey, let's talk a little bit about wage pressure, because 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.720 when you say the way that the market is tight, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.800 at least for the professional ranks, It makes me think 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.040 about wage pressure and again going back to the macroeconomic 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.279 conditions out there and what exactly the FED chair is 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:34.520 trying to do with telegraphing rate cuts in the next year. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.599 Do you see kind of what the FED sees and 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.360 what the data tell us at LinkedIn that, even though 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:48.040 professional ranks it's still very competitive, are we still seeing 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.040 the wage pressures like our potential employees still in the 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:52.640 driver's seat? 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.120 Dan, I don't have access to the wage data that 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.120 the FED does, but what I can tell you is 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.720 that it is not the environment that it was just 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.760 a short years ago. A few years ago, you saw 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.559 some incredible raises that people were getting when they jumped 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.359 from company to company, and that's just not happening at 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.200 the same rate that it was before, at least within 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:13.240 professional ranks. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:13.960 Now. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.000 I'm sure that there are certain disciplines where that might 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.599 be happening. And if we get into AI in a second, 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.120 you're definitely seeing that within AI technologies, where there are 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.080 people that are deeply skilled in large language models and 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.360 prompt engineering and data infrastructure, and there's going to be 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.160 an insatiable appetite for that kind of talent all over 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.680 the labor market. But more broadly, I think it's a 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.040 different environment than it was just a few years ago. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.159 So we're beginning to see even more so some of 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.120 those lagged effects from those FED hikes stand, even though 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.159 we're waiting on potentially more next year. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.360 Yeah, it'd be interesting to see where it all nets at. 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.240 I was following the news just like everyone to see 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.000 what the recent releases are, and it'll be interesting to 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.239 see as there's more predictability about what the Fed's doing 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.160 and perhaps a rate decrease changes hiring plans. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.240 So Dan, let's get to AI and talk about some 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.360 of the effects that AI is having on jobs. I mean, 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.279 you're a great guy to talk to you. We should 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.680 note that I did mention Microsoft. Microsoft is, of course 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.400 the parent company of LinkedIn, and Microsoft is certainly going 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:15.920 all in on AI. 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:18.440 At LinkedIn, are you guys. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:23.800 Getting to use AI tools that Microsoft is developing? Kind 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.400 of explain the relationship that you have with the parent company. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.760 Absolutely, As you mentioned, we're a business unit within Microsoft. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.520 More broadly, and I think that this is a moment 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.320 where that's been wonderful for our LinkedIn's members and customers. 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:43.239 Before the world saw chat ept in November of twenty 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.480 twenty two, we got to see some of the new 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.400 large language models that were coming out of the Open 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.919 AI relationship, and it absolutely struck us, just like it 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.960 struck the whole world at large. And as a result 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.159 of that, we've had an opportunity to embed many of 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.719 those capability is into a whole variety of products, Helping 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:08.360 job seekers find jobs, helping recruiters engage with candidates, helping 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:12.239 salespeople prepare for meetings by doing research on companies, helping 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.120 marketers build campaigns. I mean, it's sort of remarkable about 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:20.120 this technologies is how ubiquitously applicable it is and also 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.960 how easily it can be integrated into existing tools that people. 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.640 Are already using in their daily lives. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:32.119 So it's absolutely permeated our product portfolio. And my big 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:36.520 prediction for twenty twenty four is that while last year 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.800 was very much about learning about what this new technology 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.600 could do, this is going to be the year where 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.240 companies and individuals start to use AI to truly differentiate 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:46.960 themselves relative to the competition. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:51.400 What industries do you expect to see stronger job growth 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.880 due to the adoption of AI versus those that won't. 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.440 Well, I think every AI and we've said in the 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:02.400 last deck that every company is becoming a tech company 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.000 of sorts, whether you're in retail or services or manufacturing. 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:07.920 I think we're going to find the same thing with AI. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.840 Every company is going to be forced to figure out 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.360 how their strategy is going to be shaped by AI 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.600 and how their team is going to change how they 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.200 work as a result of AI. One of the things 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.400 we say at LinkedIn is that AI is going to 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.920 impact every job and every team, and I think twenty 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:26.440 twenty four is going to be the year where we 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.640 figure out where that really comes to bear in different industries. 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.520 What do we have to do as professionals to be 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.280 prepared for the AI revolution? 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.840 Well, let's talk about it at two levels. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.120 As an individual, my advice to everyone is just get started, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.199 download some of the apps, play with the technology, maybe 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.960 use it for personal use, to use it for some professionals. 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:52.760 You find one thing that you find useful, because my 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.280 experience is that some people they can feel paralyzed. It 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.360 feels like this new thing, they're not sure how to 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.880 make use of it, and feels it can change in 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.240 so many ways. But if you can find one habit 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.000 to deploy on a daily basis. Then you can start 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.400 to learn how this technology can make a difference for you, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.080 and then you can figure out how to embed it 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.280 in a broader range of things in your life. I 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.480 also think for job seekers, this is going to be 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.840 a skill that's expected by employers. I was speaking with 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.960 a head of recruiting at a large company in Chicago recently, 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.439 and one of the things that she said is that 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.480 it's one of the primary factors that they're starting to 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.000 use and they're hiring processes. Are you comfortable it's using 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.400 some of this new AI technology because they want they 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.320 want talent on their team that's comfortable with it, and 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.120 you're going to start to see a mix of people 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.479 that are both comfortable and then others that are reluctant. 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.520 I'm curious your view now that we're getting past the pandemic, 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.480 because work from home was such a hot topic at 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.959 that point and so many employees we're doing that. What 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.439 does that look like now when it comes to negotiating 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:57.560 through the job process. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.880 Well, it's been a ynamic situation. I think when the 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.080 pandemic happened, you saw a lot of companies start to 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.400 embrace more flexibility. You saw a lot of opening of 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.320 remote roles, and as there was a time period just 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.600 a few years ago where twenty percent of the job 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.400 openings on LinkedIn were remote. 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.160 But as we've gotten past. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.520 The pandemic phase and things have become more endemic, you've 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.760 seen remote openings come down in some industries below ten percent, 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.240 and so you start to see that remote roles are 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.599 becoming less available on average. But there is still a 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.160 lot of discussion about flexibility, and that's a place where 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.840 each company defines flexibility a little bit differently, so it 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.520 really varies company to company and industry to industry. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.040 So what about when it comes to actual long term 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.440 hybrid work and flexibility here? This is something that I 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.679 know our colleagues and certainly our listeners and viewers are 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:59.400 really interested in. I've seen from what I've observed anecdotally 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:03.200 and from also to people who have the data here 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.240 that it does certainly feel like we're back to this. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.000 You know, not necessarily everyone's in the office five days 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.520 a week, but gone are the days of like two 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.280 or three days a week in the ya. I mean, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.679 we're in the office four days a week at a minimum. 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.320 It seems like, and I'm not even speaking for Bloomberg. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:20.920 I'm speaking like me, like I have to be here 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:22.720 every day because of what I do. But it does 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.000 seem like everybody I talk to in New York City, 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.560 it's this is the norm rather than the exception. What 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.160 are you seeing in terms of jobs that are advertised 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.880 on LinkedIn and sort of the experience of your members. 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:40.760 It's interesting how geographically specific this trend is. So if 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.280 you're in New York, if you're in Europe, if you're 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.160 in Asia Pacific, you see that things in many places 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.360 have gotten back a little bit closer to where they 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.080 were pre pandemic, where people are in the office, you know, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:53.959 four and in some cases five days a week. I 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.840 think you do see environments where a fordance of flexibility 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.480 has definitely gone up. There's a greater understanding of people 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.480 coming in or leaving at certain hours, or needing to 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.720 work home and life around each other. A little bit 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.800 more on the West Coast, the environments a little bit differently. 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:13.679 You see more companies embracing a less frequent office participation, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.880 and it really varies by the industry you're in. So 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:18.560 you know, it's one of the things that I encourage 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.560 anyone that's going through a job seeking process is just 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.800 to make sure you understand what's important to you and 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.600 understand the norms that exist at the company. And interestingly enough, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.080 sometimes the norms that are written down on paper are 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.280 not the norms that are practiced, and so it's always 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.720 good to not just talk to the HR team, but 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:38.600 talk to some people on the team that you're working 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.400 with to understand how teams really operate. 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.959 So who do you think has the upper hand now? 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:44.440 Job seekers or employers? 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.320 Oh well, it's a much more balanced market. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.800 If two years ago I would have said job seekers 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.880 or in the dream seed buy and large, it's a 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.720 much more balanced situation now. You know we're talking about 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.720 AI before. If you're if you have AI skills and 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.360 you are in such demand and by employers, than you 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.520 are very much in the driver's seat and you're seeing 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.640 companies pay very substantial sums to find AI talent. I 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:11.960 think that's going to can persist, if not get worse 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.679 as we get into twenty twenty four. But I think 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.400 in lots of other places it's much more balanced. 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.360 Can you talk to us about what AI skills particularly 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.319 are and how do you acquire them absolutely. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.959 So I think there's two ways to talk about AI skills. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.280 I think the first is, in the broadest sense, if 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.800 you are in sales, if you are in marketing, if 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.160 you're in engineering, if you're in accounting, if you're in recruiting, 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.560 your employer is going to want you to be comfortable 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.880 with AI such that they can bring it into your 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.280 day to day process. And so I encourage every job 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.120 seeker to use AI in some way such that you 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.920 can bring a personal story into your interview about how 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.880 you've used AI to use any number of any number 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.839 of tasks and having an understanding of how that might 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.560 help you be more productive as an employee. So it's 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.800 not that you're learning AI as a technical skill, but 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.040 you're learning how to apply it to your day to 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.480 day interactions. I think every employer is going to be 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.240 looking for people with this kind of capability. And then 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.600 beyond that, you get into much more technical realms and 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.360 you're talking about do you have understanding of machine learning? 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.120 Do you have an understanding of large language models for 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.280 particular kinds of neural networks? And you're seeing an influx 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:37.240 of people from technical backgrounds learning these kinds of AI 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.440 specific technical skills to have access to some of these 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.200 incredible opportunities that are now starting to emerge. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:45.920 Hey, Dan, I want to shift years and just end 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.280 sort of about LinkedIn's business because as COO, you have 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.920 a seat right a front row seat there. Colleague Sarah Fryar, 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.280 who covers who is the Big Tech team leader for 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.640 Bloomberg News, wrote an article back in August about how 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.640 LinkedIn has been gaining engagement as Twitter now known as 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:04.280 X and Facebook face stagnation, and she shared the stat 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.760 that LinkedIn shared that in the spring of this year, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.680 users shared forty one percent more content on LinkedIn than 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.600 they did in the same period in twenty twenty one. 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.240 Can you give us an update about engagement on the 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.640 platform and what you're seeing in the second half of 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:18.640 twenty twenty three. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.440 Well, more people are using LinkedIn every day for a 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.160 wider range of things. We crossed a billion members on 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.600 the platform recently, which is amazing. I joined the company's 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:34.480 employee back in two thousand and eight we had less 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.000 than twenty million members. Acrossing a billion as an incredible milestone. 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.520 And you know whereas years ago, LinkedIn was a place 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.280 to create a profile, maybe build connections. Increasingly, it's become 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:49.200 a place to share and consume professional knowledge. So we 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.600 see people giving updates on their industries. Conversations around AI 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.680 are up over seventy percent year on years, so we 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.960 see a lot of people understanding best practices of a 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.920 applying AI in their industry. And then, you know, as 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.400 you might expect in for companies or people that have 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.440 been displaced from a job perspective in the last year, 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.080 you see people finding jobs on LinkedIn, which is one 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.560 of our core use cases. So engagement this year has 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.600 been fantastic and we're really excited to chart our paths 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:20.840 to the next billion professionals. 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.320 Hey, Dan, happy holidays. It's always nice to check in 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.160 with you. Really appreciate you joining us on Bloomberg Business 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.040 Week this afternoon. That's LinkedIn Chief operating Officer Dan Shapiro. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.040 If you're watching, you saw him joining us on zoom 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.720 from non View, California. Jess, it's going to be a 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.640 yearfold with AI. That's a pretty and I certainly have 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.680 that you're listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.640 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.040 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.120 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.480 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.480 As we continue our New Year's weekend edition of the program. 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.720 We wanted to you examine what's ahead in our fight 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.240 against carbon emissions. More than sixty percent of US electricity 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.600 comes from fossil fuels, that's natural gas colon petroleum. About 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.280 twenty one percent comes from renewables like wind, solar, and hydropower. 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.080 The rest, well, it comes from nuclear energy, which has 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.119 remained stagnant over the last decade at about nineteen percent. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.480 This all according to the US Energy Information Administration. Our 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.360 next guest is among the growing chorus of experts who 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.119 argue that governments have to go nuclear in order to 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.240 reach net zero goals. Maria Korsnik is the CEO of 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.040 the Nuclear Energy Institute. It's a trade association that advocates 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.639 for more nuclear power generation. Bloomberg News Cross Asset reporter 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.920 Emily Grafeo and I got her take on the path 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.159 forward for the Sector's. 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.280 Say, you have to look at the value of nuclear 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.800 quite frankly right. It's that seven twenty four around the clock. 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.760 Not only is it carbon free, it's highly reliable, and 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.960 I think we don't talk as much about the value 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.600 that you're getting. These power plants are built not for 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.800 forty years, not for sixty years, eighty years, one hundred years, 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.040 and so you really have to look at the complete 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.160 picture that you get when you build nuclear. Yes they're 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.520 large projects, Yes they're going to cost in order to 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.879 make that happen, but the value that they bring to 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:20.960 the system is really incredible. And again I think we 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:22.840 just need to shift a little bit more to the 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:23.720 value conversation. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.400 So you were at COP twenty eight, can you give 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.840 us a sense of the narrative around nuclear energy? Was 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.640 the consensus that this is green energy? Like? How were 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.359 people actually talking about this form of energy? 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:39.359 Absolutely? 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.720 In fact, you know, some are coining this the nuclear 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.800 cop you know, and I've been to the last few COPS, 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.240 and I would just describe nuclear as a little bit 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.359 trying to get a seat at the table, trying to 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.399 create some conversation this cop. You know, we're in the 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.119 sort of official. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.480 Documents from COP. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:01.560 We're in what's called the stock take, you know, paragraphs 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:07.440 about nuclear, about wind and solar together being what's required. 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.960 The fact is that you know, nuclear was never officially 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.119 credited and mentioned in the way that it is here. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:20.600 Tripling nuclear was a pledge that was signed by twenty 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.919 four plus countries. The IAEA had a pledge on just 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.760 crediting nuclear for being part of the decarbonizing solution, over 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.840 forty countries sign that. So I would really say this 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.960 cop was sort of a real, real recognition of the 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.520 value that nuclear is going to bring. And quite frankly, 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.080 we're not going to get anywhere close to the commitments 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.280 if we don't include nuclear in the solution. 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:48.400 We have to be there. 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.919 I think people are still scared of nuclear. I have 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:52.520 to tell you I grew up and people who've heard 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.639 me talk about this before apologies, but I grew up 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:56.680 near a nuclear power plant in California. It's actually the 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.159 last online nuclear power plant right now, Diablo Canyon in 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:04.520 San Luis Obisco County. We would have siren drills. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:04.640 Once a year. 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.760 I think it was the first weekend in September at noon, 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.720 when you know, the sirens would go off to to 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:11.920 you know, warn people like, Okay, this is what would 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.480 happen if there were some sort of nuclear meltdown. People 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:19.399 had iodine pills at their disposal. Is that, you know, 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.840 and they grew up, you know, thinking about Chernobyl three 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.640 Mile Island. You know, get what's the safety around this stuff. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.240 For people who say, wait a second, I'm a little scared. 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:34.240 Of nuclear, yeah, honestly, it's incredibly safe. And you know, 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.160 I also, I'll say, grew up around this nuclear I've 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.000 operated plants. I've been a nuclear plant operator. I've been 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.440 a site vice president in charge of one plant. I've 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.560 been a chief nuclear officer in charge of five reactors 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.440 at three locations. And I just say I know nuclear 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.080 from the inside, and I would live next to a 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.080 nuclear plant any day they're in. They're incredibly safe and 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.560 especially as compared to other technologies that we need. And 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.240 I would also say that you know, nuclear uses the 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:12.160 fewest critical minerals. Nuclear uses the lowest land space, if 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.199 you will, for the volume of energy that it produces. 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:20.000 From a life cycle perspective, it is in the lowest 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.680 use of carbon for the whole life cycle of the plant. 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.200 It's clean energy. 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.439 And you know, in terms of carbon free and in 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.640 terms of other emissions and jobs, you get a lot 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.639 of jobs with nuclear. There are little economic engines for 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:37.760 the local community. 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.800 I think to a lot of people it's almost perfect. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:42.879 But I think a lot of people would also say, 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.840 what about the waste. We still haven't figured out what 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:48.760 to do with nuclear waste. 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.600 Yeah, you know, I look at that a little differently. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:55.400 I'm so proud of nuclear for being able to account 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.239 for all of its waste. You know, oftentimes we look 0:21:58.280 --> 0:21:59.720 at nuclear and say, what are you going to do? 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.440 And I so well know what. We know where every 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.639 piece of it is from all of the waste or 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.879 all of the nuclear power that we've used since the 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.560 nineteen sixties, we know where every piece of that is. 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.280 And you're absolutely right. Some of the fuel that we 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.280 have today, which we call waste, I would prefer to 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:19.480 say it's used fuel. And why do I say that? 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.760 Because it can be used again in other types of reactors, 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.639 and those other types of reactors are ones that we 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:30.960 are trying to bring to the marketplace literally as we speak. 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:33.879 And so I would say the used fuel you have 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.760 today is a future resource and we should look. 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:37.199 At it like that. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.040 What's next for nuclear in the US? Are we trying 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:44.159 to build more reactors actively in this country? 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.720 So we're building some down in Georgia right now. One 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.000 went online this year and the second will go online 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.440 next year. And what we're in the process of doing 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:57.040 right now, if you could imagine an innovation pipeline, chocolate 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.760 block full of different designs, and that is coming out 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.040 over the next five, ten, fifteen years. And these are 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:10.040 partnerships between our national labs and private companies and very 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:14.280 much one a beautiful, quite frankly innovation here in the 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:16.879 United States. And I'll tell you nuclear is not just 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.359 being talked about in the United States. It's being talked 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.919 about around the world. We just talked about cop but 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.960 many other countries right now are looking to expand nuclear 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.480 and they're looking at the United States to help them. 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:31.440 So what we need to be doing here in the 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.760 United States is bringing some of these innovations and getting 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.320 them built so that these other countries can have a 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.440 chance to see them and then choose which design they 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:44.800 want built in their country. At cop Poland for example, said, 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.080 we already have six sites. At each site, we want 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:50.640 four small modular reactors. We're teaming with a US company. 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.080 We want to put twenty four in place. 0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:56.959 Maria, I have to ask, what do you make of 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.800 the price of uranium. It's up seventy five percent this year. 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:03.960 I write about ETFs and commodities markets, and there's a 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:09.560 lot of interest for buying into this nuclear energy uranium trade. 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.760 But why is it up so much seventy five percent 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:12.200 this year. 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:13.320 Well, a couple of things. 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.280 For one thing, we are I think that's an indication 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:19.960 that people are bullish, if you will, as they look 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:24.320 ahead for nuclear and I think also we're looking very 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:29.120 much at ensuring that we have a solid and stable 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:31.600 fuel supply as we move forward. You've seen that we 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:35.320 want to invest in the US fuel supply here so 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.840 that we have not only the mining but also conversion 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:42.240 and enrichment services available to this industry, so that we 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.600 have a solid supply as. 0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:46.159 We move forward. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:47.800 And so I think a lot of that is put 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.080 attention on the front end of this fuel supply, and 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:52.120 I think that's causing some of that price increase. 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.240 That was Maria Korsenik, a CEO of the Nuclear Energy Institute. 0:24:56.359 --> 0:25:00.399 It is a nuclear industry trade association that advocates for 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:01.920 more nuclear power generation. 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:04.000 She joined us on zoom from Washington, d C. 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:13.120 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:17.280 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.639 the Bloomberg Business App, and YouTube. You can also listen 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.840 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:25:24.280 --> 0:25:26.320 Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg. 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:31.480 Eleven thirty, Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a new measure 0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:34.239 that allows state law enforcement to arrest migrants who enter 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:39.680 the US without authorization. Mexican President andres Manuel Lopez Obrador 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.600 am Low has accused the governor of using such measures 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:44.520 for political gain ahead of the twenty twenty four US 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:48.880 presidential election, and he says that his country will challenge 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.600 the measure. No question that immigration as front and center 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:55.600 as we enter the twenty twenty four presidential election. In fact, 0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.480 swing state voters see US Mexico border security is a 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:03.800 greater pity than the foreign policy crises that have increasingly 0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:07.040 dominated President Joe Biden's attention over the last few months. 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.640 We're talking Israel, Hamas, and then of course what's going 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.320 on in Ukraine. This, according to an October Bloomberg News 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.640 Morning Consule poll, what we've got with us a great 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.400 voice to help us understand migration and also to help 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:24.040 dispel what he argues are common myths and misconceptions around migration. 0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:27.800 Heinde Haas is Professor of Sociology at the University of Amsterdam. 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.080 He's also the director of International Migration Institute and the 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:34.679 author of the new book How Migration Really Works, The 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.760 Facts about the most divisive issue in politics. Professor de Haas, 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:40.360 good to have you with us this afternoon. 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:40.840 How are you. 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:42.159 I'm fine, Thank you well. 0:26:42.200 --> 0:26:44.239 Thanks for stayd up late in Amsterdam and joining us. 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:47.640 We really do appreciate it. Hey, if you go back 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:50.879 in history, for pretty much as long as we've been 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:55.680 had historical record, migration has been politically divisive. I mean, 0:26:55.680 --> 0:26:58.879 this is the type of thing that sparked wars in 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:04.840 the past for orders. Why has it been so politically divisive? 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:08.280 Migration is this perfect issue to detract the attention away, 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:12.800 distract the attention away from other issues where people aren'thappy about. 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:15.399 And I think migration is the perfect scapegoad as well. 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.720 But it also provides an opportunity for politicians to deposition 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:22.399 themselves as strong leaders against the common enemy. So it 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:26.560 is very attractive for politicians to draw the migration card. 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:29.639 And we see that all across the West. But like 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:31.240 you said it's not something new. I mean, if you 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:33.199 go a century back in the US, there was a 0:27:33.240 --> 0:27:39.440 lot of hostility towards Southern European migrants, Catholic migrants, Jewish migrants, 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:42.280 German migrants, and you see that for all countries. So 0:27:42.440 --> 0:27:45.879 this phenomenon as such is not new. I think what 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.960 it's worrying is the divisive an inflammatory language we're hearing 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:54.000 from politicians. Of course, migration comes with its problems, but 0:27:54.240 --> 0:27:57.159 it's now being sort of magnified to this essential threat 0:27:57.520 --> 0:28:00.600 to societies, and I think that is really problematic because 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.720 the debate is more and more disconnected from what's happening 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:04.320 on the ground. 0:28:05.240 --> 0:28:07.879 Can you walk us through maybe some of the most 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:13.440 common misconceptions that you hear about migration and what your 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:14.960 responses would be to those. 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:15.920 Yeah. 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:18.600 Now, I think the most common sort of idea that 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:22.920 many people share across the political world, from left to right, 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:26.440 is this idea that the swelling mass of people from 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:29.160 poor countries are moving to rich countries and that our 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:33.320 borders are increasingly overwhelmed. And it's linked to this idea 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:38.840 that poverty, inequality, warfare pushes more and more people to 0:28:38.880 --> 0:28:41.600 live their homelands now. Of course there are issues on 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:44.040 the border, and certainly in the US case, that's not 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:46.320 something we can ignore. But if you zoom a little 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.760 bit out and you look at the overall volume of 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:50.880 migration in the world, we talk about three percent of 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:55.720 the will population, and that percentage remained remarkably stable over 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.880 the last century. Basically there have been clear shifts in 0:28:58.960 --> 0:29:01.760 terms of directions of migration. If we don't really have 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:04.400 evidence of migration as such as spinning out of control, 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:07.240 although you'd get that impression of course if you look 0:29:07.240 --> 0:29:10.520 at particular border areas and the issues the US is 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:13.120 currently dealing with. But I think if you zoom out, 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:17.560 migration is essentially not driven by poverty and misery. The 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:20.280 main driver of migration, also to the US has always 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:24.040 been the economy and particular labor demand. And what you 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:26.680 see right now both in terms of legal any legal 0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:29.160 migration in the US, and I'll be disconnected to the 0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:32.160 fact that use in employment as is the fifty year 0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:37.200 low right now. Labor shortages are huge. We have an 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:41.720 unprecedented peak of vacancies topic topping I think ten million 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.880 right now, which is really historical records. And these things 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.520 are connected. So this is not so much about a 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:50.600 sort of poverty push what people think. It is really 0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:53.920 primarily about there's opportunities, and that's always been the case. 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:55.640 It's always been the case with immigration. 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:58.440 It sounds like you and you're making the point, Professor, 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:02.640 that the US can absorb the immigration that we're seeing. 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:05.120 Well, I think the problem is that quite a lot 0:30:05.120 --> 0:30:08.240 of migration is undocumented. It's about the legal migration, and 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:11.880 that reveals I think a huge issue all across the West. 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:16.360 There is simply not enough political support for creating more 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:19.360 legal channels for lower skilled migrants. And we need we 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:23.360 sort of with the COVID pandemic that these people do 0:30:23.520 --> 0:30:26.080 all sorts of essential jobs in the economy. But this 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.720 is not the kind of migrants for which we give 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:31.640 in our visas, which means that people find other ways 0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:33.440 to enter countries, and I think that is one of 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.960 the biggest causes of the search and border crossings which 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:39.840 you see. Besides of quarter, there's also people fleeing conflict. 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:43.960 So to put it simply, the best way to really 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:46.840 really curb migration is to wreck your economy, and we 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:50.480 see indeed in times with high unemployment economic recessions, migration 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.280 goes down. When the economy does well, a lot of 0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:55.880 people come and it's partly what you see. And most 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.560 of the migration also to the US is about legal migration, 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:02.160 legal ten pporiary mirgant admissions to the US reach an 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:05.640 all time high under the Trump presidency up to six million, 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:09.600 and after a sort of COVID slack, it's back to 0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:12.920 five million of last year, and it reflects the actually 0:31:13.480 --> 0:31:16.120 very good state of the US economy. So to put 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:18.840 it differently, if you want, if you don't like immigration, 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:22.000 that is the price you pay for being a wealthy, 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.680 open market economy as the US. But the same goes 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:26.920 for the UK and many other European countries. 0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:33.080 So under the framework that you're working with that you 0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:36.080 know the only way to solve micration, you should well 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.160 one way would be to wreck your economy. Obviously we 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:41.680 wouldn't want to do that in the US. But underneath 0:31:42.960 --> 0:31:47.040 your framework, did you come up with ideas or solutions 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:49.080 about I mean, we do have a lot of people 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:53.000 trying to cross the border illegally. How do you solve that? 0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:56.480 How do you even begin to start finding solutions for that? 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.200 Well, you cannot do anything if you don't do anything 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:02.000 about the demand factor, and I think what really shows that. 0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:05.920 Another thing sort of myth is that, you know, politicians 0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:08.400 get tougher and tougher in immigration. Yet it's true on 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:11.280 the level of rhetoric, but if you look at practices, 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:14.760 we haven't found in a huge research project any difference 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.800 between left leaning and right leaning politicians in terms of 0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.719 the policies they implement. For instance, a lot of particular 0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:24.400 Republican side, you hear a lot of tough talk on immigration. 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:28.400 At the same time, labor enforcement is symbolically low in 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.760 the whole of the US. Just one statistic, the number 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:36.880 of employers that get prosecuted for employing undocumented migrants is 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:41.280 somewhere between ten and fifteen a year. Without any zeros added, 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:44.200 it is roughly the same chance of being hit by lightning. 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:47.120 And it shows to whatever you call it, that's call 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.160 it the hypocrisy of politicians that you know, I have 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:52.000 a lot of tough talk to say about immigration, but 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:54.000 a lot of these yeah, and a lot. 0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:56.080 Of these A lot of the big examples of this 0:32:56.120 --> 0:33:00.720 are in actually states where that are most aggressively rhetorically 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:06.200 anti this migration. Who are migrants? Because in order to 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:09.800 actually leave where you were born, leave where you're from, 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:14.800 leave your family behind. That takes a person who's willing 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:17.560 to make a lot of sacrifice and do these things 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.520 and work, in my opinion, work very hard. What have 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:21.920 you found in your research. 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.560 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we find. That was true 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:27.120 in the past of Europeans going to the United States. 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:29.200 It's still true for migrants. Migrants are what we call 0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:32.040 a positive selection of people in home countries, which means 0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:36.280 these are the exceptional people, the entrepreneurial people. Three percent 0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.120 of the low population migrates, that means ninety seven percent 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:42.280 stays home. So migrants are almost by definition, those who 0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:45.920 want to take risks or entrepreneurial who want to improve 0:33:46.000 --> 0:33:48.560 their lives. And that is still the case by and large. 0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:51.800 So migrants are a positive sub selection, and that is 0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:55.800 actually by research is found that immigration decreases crime, very 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:58.720 contrary to what politicians say, because migrants are often very 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:04.600 community business oriented. They don't come to countries to become criminals. 0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:07.280 And that's why we find in research the exact opposite 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:09.200 of what politicians tend to claim. 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:11.040 But I want to get back to our conversation with 0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:14.600 Heinde Haash professor of sociology at the University of Amsterdam. 0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:18.200 He's also the director of the International Migration Institute and 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:21.120 the author of the new book How Migration Really Works. 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.640 The fact is about the most divisive issue in politics. 0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:30.240 Professor Dehas joins us from Amsterdam this afternoon. So, Professor, 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:34.160 one thing that I wanted to discuss was public opinion 0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.439 and what you've found in different parts of the world 0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:41.680 where you've studied this, and how democrats, how Republicans in 0:34:41.719 --> 0:34:47.359 the US think about immigration as a political issue, because. 0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:49.800 Your findings, I think would surprise a lot of people. 0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:52.399 Yeah, what is interesting, it is indeed true is most 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:56.640 people would expect that more Republicans think negatively about migration 0:34:56.760 --> 0:35:00.000 compared to Democrat leaning voters who tend to be slightly 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:03.160 more positive. But if you look at trends through time, 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.879 it really becomes interesting. In the US, clearly the share 0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.400 of people who look positively at migration on both sides 0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:14.880 of the political divide between Democrats and Republicans is actually growing. 0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:18.880 So there is no sort of public backlash against immigration, 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.359 which what you would think if you listen to politicians, 0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:24.319 and we find the same in Europe, and we can 0:35:24.400 --> 0:35:27.200 explain that because people get used to the presence of 0:35:27.239 --> 0:35:32.440 migrants'pheares often diminish and people start to think more positively 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:37.080 about immigration. So there is no big public backlash against immigration. 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:40.839 What you see is that the rhetorics have grown increasingly 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:44.719 tough by politicians. It is more on the level of 0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:48.319 political rhetorus that you see the huge polarization between a 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:49.800 sort of pro and anti migration. 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.319 But is that rhetoric working, Does it lead to people 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:55.680 changing their minds, does it lead to public opinion shifting, 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:57.640 and is the lead of candidates being elected. 0:35:57.480 --> 0:35:59.319 Well in the broad sense not. But there is of 0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:03.320 course a share of voters that is worried about immigration, 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:05.560 that sees immigration is a big threat, and that vote 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:07.839 is being mobilized, and that is still a significant share. 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:10.240 But the interesting thing is that the share of people 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:13.520 thinking more positive will do up migration is actually increasing. 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:16.160 It may, of course be that people on the fringes 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:19.960 may be emboldened by divisive, inflammatory language, and that is 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.839 of course a problem. It could spark violence and discrimination 0:36:22.960 --> 0:36:27.040 and racism. But overall, there is no clear trend towards 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:32.319 growing sinophobia growing racism. The trend is rather in the 0:36:32.360 --> 0:36:35.560 other direction that is actually very surprising, and what it 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:38.879 shows that there is I think there is a fair 0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:41.480 share of voters who wants to hear a different story 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:46.680 because this pro anti division is simply not working anymore. 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.880 Migration is of all times, migration comes with the share 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:52.800 of problems. It comes also with a lot of benefits. 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:55.400 But it's not something that can just think away. And 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.200 I always say to ask you know me, for instance, 0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:01.600 are you in favor against migration? To be like asking 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:04.879 an economist, are you in favor against the economy. That's 0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:07.640 not a serious way of talking about immigration. And that 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:11.200 is partly why the debate is so incredibly stuck, because 0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:14.720 both camps sort of dig in, cave in, and cherry 0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:18.600 pick evidence, and there are not many politicians who dare 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.600 to tell the true story about immigration, which bio neecessity 0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:25.279 is a much mon nuanced one than the one we 0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:27.680 usually hear when we listen to politicians. 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:32.640 So what did your findings find with the nuance of 0:37:33.200 --> 0:37:38.479 who actually benefits from migration in the countries that are 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.800 bringing people in, that are seeing more migrants, who benefits there? 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:46.400 Well, migrants make the whole economy bigger basically, so the 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:49.759 whole economic pie is simply growing. And if you look 0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:53.160 at average effects on wages, for instance, we find very 0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:56.600 very small effects, and there you can discuss about methods 0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:59.760 and data, but the fact the effect is so small 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:03.560 that it is pretty insignificant. When you look at higher 0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:06.400 and lower incomes, you see a clear difference. It is 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:10.760 particularly already affluent that benefit most economically from immigration, because 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.360 these are, of course the people using services migants provide, 0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:18.520 often owning businesses that help them to boost their profits. 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:23.160 But the lowest income earners, amongst whom also many former migrants, 0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:26.600 of people living on minimum wage, for instance, don't benefit 0:38:26.680 --> 0:38:29.040 much from immigration, and in some cases they may lose 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:32.160 out a little bit. It doesn't mean that immigration is 0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:35.560 the cause for the long wage technotion we have seen 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:39.200 for lower incomes in the United States. But it is 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:41.879 in a way logical that people who earn really low 0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:44.480 wages have the feeling what's in it for me? Because 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:46.680 these are also the people who see, of course the 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:50.440 day to day consequences of immigration in their daily lives. 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:53.840 So in that sense, the idea that they don't benefit 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:56.880 as much from immigration as already effluent people is correct. 0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.480 But it doesn't mean that migans take away jobs, or 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:03.360 a response for the long term wage technoluan that we 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.440 have seen in many Western countries amongst lower incommanders. 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:12.760 Professor de Haas, Let's say that by some imaginary force, 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:16.680 you became in charge of immigration policy. 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:17.239 Here in the US. 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:22.400 No question, we face a crisis at the US Mexico border. 0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:23.759 How would you solve it? 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.560 I think I would organize a national debate about immigration, 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:30.319 and it is a serious debate, and that should by 0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:33.440 definition be a debate about the kind of society and 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:36.120 economy you want to live in, particularly when we look 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:38.800 at lower skilled jobs, because there's broad support also in 0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:41.920 the US to allow people to come in who do 0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:46.000 higher skilled jobs, but is a fact of life and 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:49.839 certainly in the future that we need also lower skilled immigrants. 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:53.040 So you can only solve this in two ways. Either 0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:56.319 you create more legal channels for lower skilled workers that 0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:00.040 will avoid a lot of misery at the border. And 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:02.720 these policies that we've been trying to implement a border 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:05.560 enforcement that go back more than thirty years, and we've 0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:08.080 been trying to do the same again and again and again, 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:11.120 and it doesn't work because people are still attracted by 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:16.440 jobs or you make those jobs not available anymore. I 0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:19.839 do enforce labor law, you know you're really going to 0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:23.319 prosecute employers massively. I don't think that is very likely. 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:26.279 I'd rather have a different debate about the kinds of 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:29.760 jobs we create that are jobs that are not attractive 0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:33.359 for native workers, that attract migrant workers. We really need 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:35.960 to think about how we organize our economy. For instance, 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:39.000 if you think about care, who's going to take care 0:40:39.040 --> 0:40:42.520 in the future of our children, our elderly. We need 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:45.480 a serious debate about immigration where we no longer deny 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.920 these economic realities, and on that basis we can make decisions. 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:53.719 But we really cannot divorce the whole debate on immigration 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:56.719 from a broader debate how to organize our economy. Well, 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:59.360 that's a long story, it's a complex story, and that 0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:02.480 is the whole point. I think we've seen too much 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:05.480 politics of denial over the last thirty years, and that 0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.680 also explains the mess we're in, not just in the US, 0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:12.680 but also in European Union, where this real demand follow 0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:15.640 is killed labor, which is going to stay because of aging, 0:41:15.760 --> 0:41:19.600 because of increasing education of the native workforce. All indicators 0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:22.279 show that we really need a debate about this, but 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:24.840 also a debate about work and jobs and for instance 0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:28.920 minimum wage. These are all connected with immigration, and I 0:41:28.960 --> 0:41:31.279 cannot explain it fully, right, don't think well, no, I 0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:32.760 think this is a serious debate. 0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:34.160 Yeah. 0:41:34.280 --> 0:41:36.440 Yeah, it's been really helpful and you got to come 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:39.120 back and join us once again. Heinde Haas's professor of 0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:40.600 sociology the Diversity of Amsterdam. 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:41.200 Check out his. 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:43.680 New book, How Migration Really Works, The facts about the 0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:45.600 most divisive issue in politics. 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:50.279 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:53.680 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:57.760 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:00.160 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:03.600 Well, the next guest has made his living connecting people. 0:42:03.840 --> 0:42:06.799 Sam Darwish is the co founder, chairman and CEO of 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:10.239 one of the world's largest independent owners, operators and developers 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:14.640 of towers, providing communication infrastructure in eleven markets, serving about 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:17.239 seven hundred and seventy million people. He joins us on 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:21.520 Zoom this afternoon. He's the CEO of IHS Towers. It's 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:26.040 got nearly forty thousand towers across Africa, Latin America and 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:30.040 the Middle East. Also the co founder and chairman of 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:32.759 the company. Good to have you with us this afternoon. Sam, 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:33.879 How are you good? 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:34.160 Good? 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:34.560 Thank you? 0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:35.640 How are you hey? 0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:36.840 I'm doing really well. 0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:37.239 Hey. 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:39.839 This is perfect timing for you to come on our 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:43.080 program because we are our own tech Bloomberg technology team. 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:46.359 That day and Matt Day and team wrote a piece 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:52.160 about Project Kuiper earlier today about Amazon's fora into providing 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:55.440 high speed internet, and he said, you know, Amazon's not 0:42:55.520 --> 0:43:00.680 just competing against the SpaceX and the SpaceX's starlinks of 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:04.000 the world. He's competing with anyone out there right now 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:08.800 providing connectivity. And that's a company like yours that provides 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:13.360 the infrastructure for connectivity. How are you seeing the landscape 0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:15.000 right now in the markets that you operate. 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:20.440 Look, we operate, as you said, we own forty thousand 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:24.760 towers roughly across and fiber in the tens of thousands 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:29.200 of kilometers, covering eight or nine million homes across our markets. 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:33.080 Our markets are we operate in eleven countries across the world, 0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:37.680 covering roughly eight hundred million people, as you said, so 0:43:37.680 --> 0:43:41.080 we kind of like see the trends, understand what's happening. 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.200 The likes of Amazon and the likes of Google, the 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:48.920 likes of Facebook do from time to time come to 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:53.600 our markets trying to stimulate basically demand for their own services, 0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:56.040 but we haven't come. We haven't seen them come into 0:43:56.080 --> 0:43:59.120 our markets, kind of like with big statements or with 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:02.000 big broadjat that could move the need of that. 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:04.560 Now, having said that, at the end of the day, 0:44:05.560 --> 0:44:06.480 I get startling. 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:08.319 I get all the. 0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:15.479 Projects or the ideas of trying to create connectivity using 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:22.920 satellite or nonterrestrial systems. But when it comes to basic propagation, 0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:26.360 basic wireless, there is no alternative to a tower on 0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:26.800 the ground. 0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:28.600 Really, why is that? 0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:30.920 Because you know, here, I am thinking to myself, this 0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:33.640 could be a prime moment for you know what you 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:36.640 guys in the industry called leap frogging. Here the technology, 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:39.000 you know, this infrastructure technology is so expensive. I don't 0:44:39.000 --> 0:44:40.920 have to tell you. You guys own and operate forty thousand 0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:44.480 of these towers. These are very expensive things to build 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:47.480 and to operate. And then you have this other technology 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:50.120 coming in that essentially broadcast internet from the sky. Why 0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:52.960 is this not a serious concern to you at this point? 0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:56.560 Because the technology has limitations. 0:44:57.360 --> 0:44:58.200 I'll list a few. 0:44:58.719 --> 0:45:02.000 The first is that as you're trying to penetrate a 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:06.399 building or a structure sideways from a tower, it's much 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:08.799 easier because you're kind of like going through windows and 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:10.880 glass and this and that. If you try to do 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:14.400 it from the satellite, you basically have to penetrate ceilings, 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:18.160 like multiple ceilings. I mean that's a lot given the distances. 0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:21.800 Also from the satellite to Earth, the satellite may be 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:24.799 able to project the power, but the handset is kind 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:27.160 of like small and it has limitations, and being able 0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:32.840 to penetrate back into the satellite again is another issue. 0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:34.479 What kind of spectrum do you use? 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:37.200 Most of the carriers on the spectrum when you start 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:40.520 interfacing with people, The size of the battery, how long 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:43.839 can it last? I mean, those are practical limitations, and 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:46.960 then compile that or add to all of this the 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:51.200 fact that people need more and more and more capacity 0:45:51.239 --> 0:45:55.239 by the day, especially as some of these apps like 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:59.440 like drones, driverless cars kind of like start to proliferate, 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:02.280 We're going to need more capacity rather than less capacity. 0:46:02.320 --> 0:46:04.320 I mean, these satellites will not be able to provide 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:08.880 that capacity. Hem there are great solution stem like offshore 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:15.000 rural urban mountains provide some bridge like in the Ukraine situation, 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:17.560 for example, but they can't be a solution to the 0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:20.400 millions of people using their phone, for example, in Manhattan 0:46:20.520 --> 0:46:22.759 or Los Angeles or London or a legos. 0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:25.799 Right, it's just too you know, apples and oranges. It 0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:28.040 certainly sounds like he sam, I wanted to talk a 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:30.880 little bit about the types of technology that these towers 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:33.239 are providing. When you think about the different markets that 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:35.120 you're in, is this are we talking four G? Here 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:38.239 are we talking five G? I mean, what is the 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:41.960 sort of standard in terms of the equipment that you 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:45.239 provide or that the folks who lease and use your 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:46.200 towers end up using. 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:50.239 Simply put, there is no difference in the aspirations of 0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:53.880 carriers and people in our markets to where the United 0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:58.400 States or Europe is. Everyone wants the fastest, cheapest pipe. 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:01.680 Everyone wants five G one one fiber to the home. Now, 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:06.120 having said that, we are definitely behind. Our markets are 0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:07.880 largely in the four G cycle. 0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:08.440 At the moment. 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:11.919 Most of the four G deployments have happened on our towers. 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:14.920 They're selling it now to customers to upgrade from some 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:15.920 markets two. 0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:17.319 G, three G into four G. 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:21.960 Many of our markets like Nigeria, South Africa, Brazil have 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:26.040 also seen five G spectrum licensing recently, so we're beginning 0:47:26.080 --> 0:47:29.440 to see commercial tryers or commercial pilots into five G, 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:32.920 but five G is still still not the standard, so 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:33.839 it's largely four G. 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:37.279 You guys offer six different solutions including new sites in 0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:44.160 building solutions, fiber connectivity, small cell infrastructure in urban areas. 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:46.200 Where are you most bullish for your company? 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:50.160 For us, we think about it from a deployment point 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.120 of view. What does the wireless network that carries a 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:55.520 four G or a five G or eventually a six 0:47:55.600 --> 0:47:58.760 G what does it require? Initially, it used to require 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.000 these macro towers, the big towers, you know, and that's 0:48:01.760 --> 0:48:05.240 what most of us US and some of our peers 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:08.880 eight American Tower crown SBA focused on. But as you 0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:12.839 as rollout starts to change, especially with five G, more 0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:16.120 small cells will be needed. The DAAs becomes very important. 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:19.080 Fiber is critical as small cells start to kind of 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:22.160 like cells start to get closer to each other, so 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:26.200 the fiber connection to those locations become important. Also, we're 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:30.719 seeing now compute and cash becoming very important. 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:31.480 At the end of the day. 0:48:31.520 --> 0:48:34.719 Those towers are the closest really state possible to the 0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:38.239 eyeballs using a cell phone, So an element of computing 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:42.640 could happen potentially some data center or our edge data 0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:45.800 center on on on these locations. But what I'm trying 0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:48.480 to tell you here there is no one size fit 0:48:48.560 --> 0:48:49.680 all kind of like solution. 0:48:50.160 --> 0:48:51.360 You have to be ahead. 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:53.560 You have to look at the technology of the time 0:48:53.760 --> 0:48:57.480 in that country and what kind of rollout does it require. 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:01.239 It always will require macro hours in our view, because 0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:04.239 that's kind of like the basic the umbrella cannot cover it. 0:49:04.480 --> 0:49:06.400 But all these other types like. 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:09.880 Like small cell, like the in building, like the fiber 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.520 will be required in different types and different instances. 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:15.400 Well, Sam, I could talk about this stuff all afternoon. 0:49:15.400 --> 0:49:17.719 I used to cover telecom, so I just love talking 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:21.160 about connectivity and how people are getting connected around the world. 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:23.120 I really appreciate you taking the time in joining us 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:26.960 on Bloomberg Business Week this afternoon. Sam Darwash Darwish, co founder, 0:49:27.040 --> 0:49:30.359 chairman and CEO of IHS Towers, joining us on zoom 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:31.000 this afternoon. 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:32.560 This is Bloomberg Business Week. 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:38.759 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Catch us 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:42.800 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, 0:49:43.000 --> 0:49:46.280 the Bloomberg Business App, and YouTube. You can also listen 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:49.479 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:53.040 Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:56.520 Plenty ahead in our second hour of this new year's 0:49:56.520 --> 0:49:59.319 weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including a look at 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:02.440 the weight loss drug phenomenon sweeping the US and what 0:50:02.480 --> 0:50:06.160 it means for businesses outside of big Pharma, Plus key 0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:09.840 takeaways from Sam Almon's abrupt Ouster and subsequent reinstatement in 0:50:09.880 --> 0:50:12.480 Open Ai, and the very best in luxury and culture 0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:14.719 from our friends at Bloomberg Pursuits. 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:15.600 First up this. 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:17.520 Hour, I look back at one of the most storied 0:50:17.520 --> 0:50:21.560 careers in the history of investing, Charles Munger, the alter Ego, 0:50:21.960 --> 0:50:25.120 sidekick and foyle to Warren Buffett for almost sixty years 0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:27.600 at Berkshire. Hathaway died a little over a month ago 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:29.600 at the age of ninety nine. On the day of 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:32.320 his passing, Carol and I spoke with Bloomberg News reporter 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:36.280 Noah Bouhier, who covered Munger and Bill Smead, the founder 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:40.200 in CIO of SMED Capital Management and a longtime Berkshire investor. 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:44.160 I wrote a letter to Buffett probably five years ago, 0:50:44.239 --> 0:50:48.480 just thanking him for how incredibly generous that him and 0:50:48.680 --> 0:50:50.680 Munger have been with all of us. I mean it 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:52.480 literally changed our lives. 0:50:52.480 --> 0:50:53.160 What do you mean by that? 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:53.600 Yeah? 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:59.200 Oh, by communicating the discipline that they practiced. They shared 0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:02.480 why they were doing what they're doing all these years 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:05.640 in the writing, in the annual meetings, sitting there and 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:09.279 taking questions for six hours, all the way way up 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:13.680 into their nineties. It's like a gold mine of wisdom. 0:51:14.160 --> 0:51:19.719 But here was this incredible resource. Charlie Munger was the 0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:23.600 Solomon of our era. He was the wisest man in 0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:27.000 the investment business. He was a cal Tech grad, Harvard 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:31.160 law educated, started a law firm in Los Angeles, had 0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:36.040 a successful career in real estate, successful career in making 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:39.560 common stock choices, and the right hand guy to the 0:51:39.560 --> 0:51:43.600 most successful investment selector and asset allocator of all time. 0:51:44.000 --> 0:51:45.080 I mean he is. 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:51.080 You know, we just admired him so much, And then, 0:51:51.120 --> 0:51:54.480 of course we admired him immensely because he'd say exactly 0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:56.640 what he was thinking. And didn't really care very much 0:51:56.680 --> 0:51:58.320 Bill who he might offended the process. 0:51:58.400 --> 0:52:01.200 You mentioned that you've been doing this for over forty years. 0:52:01.440 --> 0:52:05.040 What are some lessons that you've incorporated from Charlie Munger 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:08.520 over these decades into the way that you manage portfolios 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:10.600 and you allocid assets. 0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:13.279 Yeah, we when we're talking to people. I'm here in 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:16.680 New York talking to some possible new customers, and we 0:52:16.719 --> 0:52:19.399 tell them when it comes to value people, we hold 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:23.160 our winners to a fault because compounding is the eighth 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:26.560 wonder of the world. So if you can find a business, 0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:29.200 let's just right off the top of our head, pick 0:52:29.360 --> 0:52:33.600 Occidental Petroleum, who Monger and Buffett started buying in the 0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:36.800 last year and a half or two years. They're generating 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.759 massive free cash flow, they're paying down debt with it, 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:42.439 but then they're also buying backstock. So, like Buffett says, 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:45.800 over the years, if it's a company generating high returns 0:52:45.800 --> 0:52:48.960 on equity, high free cash flow buying back their stock, 0:52:49.400 --> 0:52:52.960 he ends up owning a larger and larger and larger 0:52:53.040 --> 0:52:55.520 part of the business as the years go by. That's 0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:57.279 what he did with Coke, That's what he did in 0:52:57.280 --> 0:53:00.040 an Americ Express that's you know what he did with 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.840 a lot of different companies and holding your winners. The 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:07.560 fault is a key component of alpha. As I explained 0:53:07.560 --> 0:53:09.680 to people, you buy a stock at thirty and pay cash, 0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:12.239 the worst thing happened is it goes to zero. You 0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:15.200 lose thirty points of alpha. If you buy a stock 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:17.319 at thirty and it goes to ninety and you sell 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:19.720 it and goes to two ten, you lose one hundred 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:23.040 and twenty points. And Buffett Monger taught that to people 0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:26.680 as a powerful thing. It's it's much better to get 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:31.040 a less spectacular company that you can hold all the 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:33.920 way through a ten or fifteen times your money than 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.919 it is a spectacular company that you might make five 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:38.839 times in five years. But you've got to be smart 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:40.680 enough to sell it and go to another project. 0:53:40.719 --> 0:53:43.160 Well, and you're you know something. I want to ask 0:53:43.160 --> 0:53:45.600 you a little bit more too, about what Charlie Munger 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:48.120 was to Warren Buffett, what he brought out, and Warren 0:53:48.120 --> 0:53:50.160 Buffett having said that, I want to bring Noah Bouhier 0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:52.440 into this because you know, Noah, it's one of those 0:53:52.440 --> 0:53:54.840 things where you think, as we're hearing from Bill, you 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:58.919 know these are both brilliant men, successful men, and would 0:53:58.960 --> 0:54:01.480 have been on their own, but something about them together 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:03.880 brought out even so much more. 0:54:04.239 --> 0:54:07.400 Yeah, I think that's a critical point here is the 0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:10.920 combination of talents they brought to bear really was deeply 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:14.160 important in the evolution of Berkshire. The other thing, just 0:54:14.200 --> 0:54:16.960 speaking as a journalist, the thing that I always found 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.520 so amazing about Charlie Munger was his directness and his 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:26.040 willingness to speak his mind, even if his opinion wasn't 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:30.279 necessarily a popular one. You know, as a as a 0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:35.080 business reporter and someone writing about investing, you always knew 0:54:35.080 --> 0:54:36.680 that Charlie was not just going to give you the 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:40.239 piffy quote, but something that actually had some real substance 0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:43.799 behind it. And I think that's, you know, in large part, 0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:46.399 what has resonated with a lot of investors over time. 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:49.399 I mean, people would go One of the things that's 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:54.759 underappreciated about Charlie Munger is is that deep into his nineties, 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.520 people would go to Los Angeles to hear him speak 0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:01.799 at the annual meeting of a small publishing company called 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:02.720 the Daily Journal. 0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:03.040 Daily. 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.359 This was Buffett had nothing to do with this thing. 0:55:06.440 --> 0:55:10.239 They would just go to hear Munger alone. And I 0:55:10.280 --> 0:55:12.320 remember the first time I went to this thing, that 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:15.719 were maybe one hundred or two hundred people, and you know, 0:55:15.800 --> 0:55:18.120 three or four years later word had gotten out and 0:55:18.160 --> 0:55:21.239 a couple thousand were going. I mean, you have to 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:26.080 understand Charlie Munger was respected in his own right. It 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:29.400 wasn't you know. He's often known for his affiliation with 0:55:29.400 --> 0:55:32.840 with Buffett, but he really did have his own loyal following. 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:35.360 To back up Noah on that, one of our favorite 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:39.520 things is when it comes to climate change, he just said, 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:41.799 why don't we just build a seawall? 0:55:43.920 --> 0:55:44.080 Right? 0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:45.120 That was his opinion. 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:48.520 It's like, okay, if it's real, let's do what they 0:55:48.520 --> 0:55:51.279 did in Amsterdam and just build a seawall in California 0:55:51.280 --> 0:55:56.160 and New York. And that's so simple and logical and 0:55:56.239 --> 0:56:01.080 less expensive. But that's Charlie Munger. It was always common sense, 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:05.400 always won. The difference between the two men is Warren. 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:11.520 Warren wants to die without any enemies. He has more 0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:13.799 of an urge to be liked. It's a wonderful man, 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:17.799 and he wants to be liked, whereas Charlie could care 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:23.400 less if he's liked, right, he wants to share wisdom, 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:24.600 share truth. 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.600 What was it like from the different meetings you went 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:29.520 to and just kind of seeing them up on stage, 0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:31.319 things that kind of stood out for you. 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:36.520 Well, there's hardly any better comedy routine that's ever been done, 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:40.480 the back and forth. Of course, Munger had lots of 0:56:40.520 --> 0:56:43.920 the singers, but Buffett had plenty himself. And yeah, they 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:48.040 played off fantastically. It was I had a next door 0:56:48.080 --> 0:56:50.280 neighbor that was four years ahead of me in school, 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:53.920 and I had no brothers, three sisters, and he was 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:57.080 one of four brothers. And here I are extremely close friends. 0:56:57.080 --> 0:56:59.000 But he's four years older than me in the same 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:02.520 way that Longer was six or seven years older than 0:57:02.960 --> 0:57:05.839 six years older than Warrent. Right, But yet you know, 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:09.759 we met and we were finishing each other sentences. And 0:57:09.800 --> 0:57:12.359 that's the way these guys were. They were finishing each 0:57:12.360 --> 0:57:14.479 other sentences. They'd say the first part of the sentence 0:57:14.480 --> 0:57:15.920 and they didn't have to continue because the other guy 0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:17.680 already knew what the rest of the sentence was going 0:57:17.760 --> 0:57:17.920 to be. 0:57:18.040 --> 0:57:19.480 This is that kind of relationship we. 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:20.040 Know, Bouhire. 0:57:20.040 --> 0:57:22.080 I'm so glad you're with us because we've been reading 0:57:22.120 --> 0:57:26.360 from your obituary. You know, to Bill's point about this 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:29.080 this idea of common sense and not you know, not 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:33.840 always needing to be liked. You mentioned this some of 0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:36.680 his donations, and this one's this one's at the top 0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:40.000 of mind from him because it's it's relatively recent, forty 0:57:40.000 --> 0:57:44.360 five hundred person dorm on UCSB's campus, which actually got 0:57:44.360 --> 0:57:48.080 a lot of people interested in dormitory architecture who didn't 0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:50.960 think that they would actually be interested in dormitory architecture. 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:53.080 But you know, here Monger is trying to solve this 0:57:53.200 --> 0:57:55.880 problem of student housing, and he got a lot of 0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:58.520 blowback to this idea, and ultimately they canceled it. 0:57:58.760 --> 0:58:00.280 What happened in. 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:03.160 His later years, Munger used these donations that he gave 0:58:03.200 --> 0:58:07.080 the universities to play architect I mean, he was deeply, 0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:13.320 deeply interested in architecture, and you know, he had some 0:58:13.360 --> 0:58:19.080 pretty unconventional ideas that I think really bothered people, and 0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:22.680 it became its own, you know, subplot, it's own right. 0:58:22.760 --> 0:58:26.680 But like you have to understand, for Munger, he was 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:32.720 an incredibly wide, widely read person. He wasn't as narrowly 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:38.280 interested in investing and you know, how to make money. Obviously, 0:58:38.320 --> 0:58:40.680 he spent a lot of time doing that, but he 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:43.280 had an interest outside of it. The other thing I 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:45.080 wanted to add and the stakes with in a slightly 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:49.080 different direction. But like you know, for all that Munger would, 0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:51.480 you know, sit up on stage and sort of act 0:58:51.520 --> 0:58:56.280 as the skull and the curmudgeon next to Buffet. He 0:58:56.280 --> 0:59:00.040 he did have a you know, a generous heart, and 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:02.520 you know, when you talk to people who spent time 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:08.480 with Charlie, you know he was a deeply nice and 0:59:08.560 --> 0:59:11.680 caring person, and you know, on some level, this sort 0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:15.960 of permudgeon stance he would take on stage and in 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.440 public sometimes was a bit of an act, but it 0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:19.520 helped him make his point. 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:22.880 A truly wonderful conversation with Bloomberg's Noah Boo Hire and 0:59:22.880 --> 0:59:26.600 Smede Capital Cio Bill Smead more on our podcast feed 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:28.400 on the Legacy of Charlie Munger. 0:59:28.640 --> 0:59:31.120 We should note that shortly after Amonger's death, we also 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:33.840 lost a pair of luminaries in the fields of geopolitics 0:59:33.840 --> 0:59:37.560 and law, respectively. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger died 0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:40.280 at the age of one hundred and Sandra de O'Connor, 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:43.360 the first woman to serve as US Supreme Court Justice, 0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:46.000 died just days later at ninety three. 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:49.920 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:59:49.960 --> 0:59:53.320 Live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:57.360 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:59:57.680 --> 1:00:00.200 or watch us Live on YouTube. 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:03.080 It was perhaps the biggest story of the year in 1:00:03.120 --> 1:00:06.200 the tech sector, and one that transfers Silicon Valley along 1:00:06.200 --> 1:00:09.760 with the global artificial intelligence industry. Fewer than five days 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:13.360 after Sam Altman's abrupt ouster from open Ai, Altman was 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:15.920 back at one of the world's most valuable startups. In 1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:19.040 the immediate aftermath of Altman's return, Caroly and I spoke 1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:21.240 with someone who knows quite a bit about this space 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:25.240 and the broader implications of AI in our society, Andrew McAfee, 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:27.320 Principal research scientist at MIT. 1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:32.400 I think this is just a crystal clear case study 1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:37.240 of the importance of good old fashion, boring corporate governance 1:00:37.480 --> 1:00:40.880 and running a good board. This feels like a huge 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:43.800 enforced error on the part of the Open Ai board, 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:45.560 and I still don't quite understand it. 1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:49.360 What is ultimately the important thing that we get odd 1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:51.480 of this, or how it ends in your view. 1:00:51.640 --> 1:00:53.680 I don't think we're ever going to know all the details, 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:58.920 but we do know that if you have an extraordinarily popular, 1:00:59.440 --> 1:01:05.080 very effective CEO at growing a tech company, the board 1:01:05.280 --> 1:01:08.600 might not want to fire that person with no notice, 1:01:08.640 --> 1:01:11.320 really without apparently engaging on a lot of back and 1:01:11.360 --> 1:01:15.640 forth with him, not for any fraud or misconduct or malfeasance, 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:19.240 but because of some other kind of vague problem. If 1:01:19.240 --> 1:01:21.880 the board is going to take that fairly rash step, 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:26.040 they probably want to alert their major investors, their biggest 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:29.400 business partners, their employee base, and give them time to 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:31.880 get ready for all that they didn't appear to do 1:01:31.920 --> 1:01:32.360 any of that. 1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:34.840 Whatever you think the board's duty. 1:01:34.640 --> 1:01:38.480 Is, I can't see how it includes destroying that much 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:42.000 value following out the employee base of the company. And 1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:44.800 if the mission of the Open AI Foundation is to 1:01:44.920 --> 1:01:48.440 advance safe AGI for humanity, I do not see how 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:50.600 these actions support that mission at all. 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:53.440 You know, Tim was really smart in terms of our 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:56.800 discussions that we've been having around this about what seems 1:01:56.800 --> 1:01:59.160 to be maybe at odds, and that is this debate 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:04.640 about a need for balance of pushing generative AI, this technology, 1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:08.360 expanding exploring it to reach its potential, but with also 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:12.560 having an ethical line because of the potential of it 1:02:12.920 --> 1:02:16.120 to do wrong. Although I would go back to you know, 1:02:16.160 --> 1:02:19.080 the Cold War and missiles and the battle to have 1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:22.080 the greatest and best in terms of military and how 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:24.480 that could bring the end to civilization. So I'm trying 1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:27.920 to kind of figure out what is at risk if 1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:28.840 we get this wrong? 1:02:29.160 --> 1:02:31.560 Help me here, Yeah, whatever is at risk? 1:02:31.800 --> 1:02:35.680 If your organization organization's mission is safe AI, and you 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:38.200 believe apparently that a for profit company is not the 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:41.400 right way to accomplish that mission, then doing things that 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:44.840 let your CEO and again almost all of the employees 1:02:45.320 --> 1:02:48.520 wind up at an AI building for profit company that 1:02:48.600 --> 1:02:50.440 is not accomplishing the goals of your mission. 1:02:50.760 --> 1:02:52.000 I personally am. 1:02:51.920 --> 1:02:56.720 Not worried about the existential the alignment risk of AI. 1:02:57.200 --> 1:03:00.120 All very powerful tools bring risks and harms with and 1:03:00.200 --> 1:03:02.600 they demand vigilance, and we got to be careful about it. 1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:05.760 I don't think AI is any big exception to that 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:09.120 trend or requires us to do radically different things. 1:03:09.360 --> 1:03:11.720 We just have to be vigilant stop the bad uses. 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:15.520 That is really really surprising for me to hear from you, Andrew, 1:03:15.680 --> 1:03:19.360 because I hear from you know, the worst case scenario 1:03:19.440 --> 1:03:21.200 when it comes to this stuff is, Okay, what if 1:03:21.480 --> 1:03:25.320 AI developed some sort of super bug or biological weapon, 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:27.480 or in fact, you know in the Elon Musk school, 1:03:27.840 --> 1:03:30.760 become sentient and more powerful than human beings. 1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:31.920 Why does that not worry you? 1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:33.600 I mean I read a lot of science fiction as 1:03:33.600 --> 1:03:37.360 a kid, too. I think terminators sci fi scenarios are 1:03:37.360 --> 1:03:40.280 not great guides to policy, are not great guides to 1:03:40.880 --> 1:03:44.520 using this very powerful, very beneficial toolkit. I do think 1:03:44.600 --> 1:03:47.040 that there is a risk that AI, for example, could 1:03:47.120 --> 1:03:50.919 be used to engineer bad bugs or bioweapons. Great, why 1:03:50.920 --> 1:03:54.560 are we focusing on AI and not gene editing and 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:57.840 not gene sequencing technologies? And why are we letting anybody 1:03:57.920 --> 1:04:01.960 apply to molecular biology and genetic doctoral programs and distributing 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:05.280 that knowledge very freely? Again, there are risks in the 1:04:05.320 --> 1:04:08.840 modern world, let's not be naive about that. But singling 1:04:08.880 --> 1:04:11.720 out AI as the lynchpin that's going to make everything 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:14.000 bad happen, I just think that's wrong. I think that's 1:04:14.000 --> 1:04:17.920 a misallocation of our effort. Okay, demonizing technologies that will 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:20.840 be super beneficial to us, I think as allows the idea. 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:23.720 Well let's move away from the superbug concern and more 1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:26.320 to the concern that it will become a sentient being 1:04:26.360 --> 1:04:28.520 that is more powerful and smarter than us. Why does 1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:29.320 that not concern you? 1:04:29.560 --> 1:04:32.040 We have so many more important things to worry about. 1:04:32.120 --> 1:04:34.560 We have to accomplish an energy transition in the twenty 1:04:34.560 --> 1:04:37.320 first century. We have too high a disease burden. There 1:04:37.320 --> 1:04:39.960 are too many people in dire poverty around the world. 1:04:40.200 --> 1:04:42.920 I believe that AI might be the most powerful tool 1:04:43.200 --> 1:04:45.640 that we've ever come up with to help us solve 1:04:45.760 --> 1:04:50.400 these global planetary challenges facing humanity. And we're sitting around 1:04:50.440 --> 1:04:52.720 worried about the terminator when there's not a shred of 1:04:52.760 --> 1:04:56.160 evidence that AI has become sentient or taken control of 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:57.400 anything that we don't want it to. 1:04:57.760 --> 1:05:00.080 Bad sci fi mixed bad policy and. 1:05:00.160 --> 1:05:03.080 To full transparency, you're working with Google on research related 1:05:03.120 --> 1:05:05.160 to the societal impacts of generative AI. 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:06.880 I am curious that what is. 1:05:06.840 --> 1:05:09.640 The balance you all at Google are pursuing when it 1:05:09.680 --> 1:05:13.840 comes to generative AI reaching its potential but also being 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:15.280 smart about it and careful with it. 1:05:15.400 --> 1:05:17.040 Yeah, thanks for that, because I really want to make 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:20.520 clear here I am just talking about my own personal views. 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:23.080 I am not representing Google's views on this. I actually 1:05:23.600 --> 1:05:26.160 am not on top of everything that Google believes. What 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:28.360 I do know that Google stance is that we need 1:05:28.360 --> 1:05:31.400 to be bold and responsible. I think we are in 1:05:31.520 --> 1:05:35.320 danger of walking away from the bold part in an 1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:39.680 overabundance of not just caution, but fear about things that 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:42.240 we just don't have any evidence for. I want to 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:45.960 say this again, this is my view, not necessarily Google's view. 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:50.240 The thing that most concerns me about generitive AI is 1:05:50.320 --> 1:05:54.960 misinformation and the ability for bad actors to use that 1:05:55.040 --> 1:05:59.760 misinformation at scale to control outcomes like happens in social media. Exactly. 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:01.800 It's not that different than a lot of accusations that 1:06:01.840 --> 1:06:03.720 we saw fly in the wake of twenty sixteen and 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:06.040 twenty twenty elections here in the US. But if you 1:06:06.080 --> 1:06:10.560 thought a bought army of people, you know in Eastern 1:06:10.640 --> 1:06:14.040 Europe with social media, we're scary, then what about an 1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:18.240 actual bought army of generative AI that's able to you know, 1:06:18.840 --> 1:06:19.880 do this stuff at scale? 1:06:19.920 --> 1:06:22.080 Andrew, Now that's a harm that we should be worrying 1:06:22.080 --> 1:06:25.600 about because these are actual challenges and like you say, 1:06:25.920 --> 1:06:29.920 bad actors are going to weaponize generative AI to do 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:31.919 all kinds of harm or try to do all kinds 1:06:31.920 --> 1:06:34.480 of harm. This is a real risk, it's a real harm. 1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:38.200 I have faith in our ability to deal with the 1:06:38.240 --> 1:06:42.880 harms that technology brings us. I think we can find 1:06:42.960 --> 1:06:45.960 ways to have trusted sources that will verify whether a 1:06:45.960 --> 1:06:47.920 thing is a deep fake or not. All of us 1:06:47.960 --> 1:06:49.680 have the new sources that we run to when we 1:06:49.720 --> 1:06:51.840 see something that might be true or might not be true. 1:06:52.000 --> 1:06:54.520 We can strengthen those kinds of institutions and those kinds 1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.800 of responses. We can also educate people to be more 1:06:57.920 --> 1:07:00.960 discerning consumers of the news. 1:07:01.080 --> 1:07:03.360 You know you talk about you know, you have faith 1:07:03.400 --> 1:07:05.600 to deal with the harms of this technology maybe will 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:09.680 ultimately bring us. Should there there be some guardrails in place, 1:07:10.240 --> 1:07:13.560 you know, shamy once you know full you know, shame 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:15.520 or full me one, shame on you for me twice, 1:07:15.520 --> 1:07:16.560 shame on you know. 1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:17.360 You know what I mean. 1:07:17.400 --> 1:07:20.840 You know what I mean, Okay, George W. Bush Rich Sutchy. 1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:25.400 But I guess my point is, whether it's social media, 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:27.600 whether it's crypto, there's a lot of things out there 1:07:27.640 --> 1:07:29.480 that it's like, Oh, I guess we should have been 1:07:29.480 --> 1:07:32.560 doing this is there something we should have in place 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:36.160 at this point when it comes to generative AI. 1:07:36.800 --> 1:07:39.240 I think what we should have in place is a 1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:42.280 very agile system for becoming aware of the harms and 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:45.320 dealing with the harms as they crop up. For example, 1:07:45.440 --> 1:07:48.040 after smartphones were out for a while, we learned that 1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:51.000 a bunch of losers were using them to take pictures 1:07:51.040 --> 1:07:52.920 up the skirts of women, you know, as they commuted 1:07:53.000 --> 1:07:54.200 to work on the subway. 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:55.640 We didn't not love a smartphone. 1:07:55.680 --> 1:07:58.400 We didn't make smartphone makers apply for a license to 1:07:58.560 --> 1:08:01.280 use a camera. We didn't make all of us apply 1:08:01.440 --> 1:08:05.800 for a license to have a camera equipped smartphone around 1:08:05.920 --> 1:08:09.560 the states. Anyway, lots of legislatures acted really quickly to 1:08:09.640 --> 1:08:13.560 make that particular use of the phone illegal. Fast response 1:08:13.600 --> 1:08:16.559 to the harms that come up is my preferred approach 1:08:16.600 --> 1:08:18.920 for dealing with these. I don't trust me, or you 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:22.840 or anybody else to sit around right here and correctly 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:25.960 anticipate all of the things that will happen and all 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:27.639 of the effective ways to head that off. 1:08:27.640 --> 1:08:28.200 I just don't. 1:08:28.720 --> 1:08:31.920 That was our conversation with MIT Principal research scientist Andrew 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:35.640 McAfee back in late November and on December eighteenth, Bloomberg 1:08:35.680 --> 1:08:39.040 reported that the OpenAI Board can now choose to hold 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.920 back the release of an AI model even if the 1:08:41.960 --> 1:08:45.920 CEO has deemed it safe. The chat GPT maker revealed 1:08:45.920 --> 1:08:47.920 the arrangement as part of a new set of guidelines 1:08:47.960 --> 1:08:51.360 that it's implementing to help deal with AI risks still 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:53.920 to come. On Bloomberg BusinessWeek, we take a moment to 1:08:54.000 --> 1:08:57.360 savor our best experiences of twenty twenty three, from the 1:08:57.360 --> 1:09:01.000 theater to travel, to fine dining and everything in between. 1:09:01.280 --> 1:09:03.759 Our Bloomberg Pursuits team wraps up the year in luxury. 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:06.480 When we return. This is Bloomberg. 1:09:11.320 --> 1:09:14.920 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Catch us 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:18.960 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, 1:09:19.160 --> 1:09:22.439 the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:25.639 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 1:09:26.080 --> 1:09:28.880 Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:33.439 No year end edition of this program would be complete 1:09:33.760 --> 1:09:37.880 without a comprehensive cultural review from Bloomberg Pursuits. We have 1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:40.080 a chance now to take stock of the finer things 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:42.120 in life and also get a preview of some of 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:44.600 the new and exciting attractions that we can expect in 1:09:44.640 --> 1:09:47.120 twenty twenty four. Very pleased to welcome in the editor 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:49.559 of Bloomberg Pursuits, Chris Rouser, and to discuss some of 1:09:49.560 --> 1:09:51.719 the outstanding work that he and his team have done 1:09:51.840 --> 1:09:53.120 over the last twelve months. 1:09:53.280 --> 1:09:55.000 Chris, it's always good to have you here. 1:09:55.080 --> 1:09:57.680 The Pursuits team has published its best of lists for 1:09:57.720 --> 1:09:59.880 the year that was, and once again I asked my 1:10:00.040 --> 1:10:02.080 self the question, why am I not part of the 1:10:02.120 --> 1:10:06.879 Bloomberg Pursuits team, traveling the world drinking wine, trying on watches, 1:10:07.280 --> 1:10:08.839 driving cars, and going. 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:09.120 To the theater. 1:10:09.240 --> 1:10:12.640 Tim, We're always asking you, Well, you actually say not, 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:13.839 You're too busy busy. 1:10:14.080 --> 1:10:15.679 Hey, I do want to start with the theater, though, 1:10:15.680 --> 1:10:19.960 because Sarah Rappaport goes to a lot of theater. 1:10:20.120 --> 1:10:20.760 She sure does. 1:10:21.000 --> 1:10:21.160 So. 1:10:21.200 --> 1:10:23.080 Sarah is based in London, and so she gets to 1:10:23.120 --> 1:10:25.719 see all these amazing West End shows and independent shows 1:10:25.720 --> 1:10:28.040 out there, and she saw some of the really big 1:10:28.120 --> 1:10:31.200 hits that were there this past year, including Sunset Boulevard 1:10:31.320 --> 1:10:33.760 with Nicole Scherzinger, which I also saw when I was 1:10:33.760 --> 1:10:37.200 there for work. But her favorite show was a show 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:42.400 called Operation Mincemeat, which is homegrown, like small cast musical 1:10:42.520 --> 1:10:46.320 about sort of this caper that the British pulls during 1:10:46.360 --> 1:10:51.000 World War Two, they tricked their enemies. And it doesn't 1:10:51.280 --> 1:10:53.320 sound like something that would be like a really fun 1:10:53.520 --> 1:10:55.439 capery musical, but it actually really works. 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:58.080 Hey, I want to talk a little bit about time pieces. 1:10:58.640 --> 1:11:01.679 This is your area of expertise. Yes, that is before 1:11:01.720 --> 1:11:03.280 I met you, I used to call them watches. 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:05.840 Well, you know, you can only use the word watch 1:11:05.960 --> 1:11:08.040 so many times in one articles. You have to mix 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:10.280 it up. That's also why you'll see the word horology. 1:11:10.600 --> 1:11:12.760 It's not a word I want to use, but it's. 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:13.479 One that you dose. 1:11:13.720 --> 1:11:16.920 You know, you travel each year to an exhibition in Switzerland, 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:17.320 don't you. 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:17.679 Yeah. 1:11:17.720 --> 1:11:20.040 So there's a big trade show that happens in March 1:11:20.120 --> 1:11:22.559 or April and Geneva every year called Watches and Wonders 1:11:22.560 --> 1:11:26.080 and is where most of the big brands globally, especially 1:11:26.120 --> 1:11:29.120 the Swiss brands, show off their new time pieces for 1:11:29.160 --> 1:11:32.080 the coming year. And I always go and they do releases. 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:34.439 They also do releases throughout the year at special events 1:11:34.439 --> 1:11:37.240 and dinners and fancy things. So I see most of 1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:39.559 the new watches that come out, you know, things from 1:11:39.720 --> 1:11:42.880 three hundred dollars to things that are one point eight million. 1:11:42.640 --> 1:11:44.800 Dollars for a watch for a time piece. 1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:47.679 For a time piece at that price point, it's definitely 1:11:47.720 --> 1:11:48.360 a time piece. 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:52.640 What is this mb and F Horological machine eleven that 1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:53.880 looks nothing like a watch? 1:11:53.960 --> 1:11:56.920 Yeah, So mb and F is a brand that we 1:11:57.000 --> 1:11:58.599 write about a fair amount because it's one of our 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:01.920 favorite brands. They have these watches that are very space 1:12:01.960 --> 1:12:05.080 age and swoopy, and they sort of reinvent how you 1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:07.840 tell time. So everything from you know, you don't look 1:12:07.840 --> 1:12:09.360 at the face of the watch, you look at an 1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:11.559 angle and there's a little window that tells the time 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:14.840 and in a weird way, and they just don't really 1:12:14.880 --> 1:12:18.519 look like watches, the watches. And so because they're so unique, 1:12:18.520 --> 1:12:21.960 they're really coveted and a small production, and they make 1:12:22.000 --> 1:12:25.360 these horological machines every couple of years and they're completely 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:28.639 new movements, which means they're completely like they've reinvented the wheel. 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:31.560 So my friend that works at NBNF came to Bloomberg 1:12:31.600 --> 1:12:33.200 and like was like, I smuggled something in for you. 1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:35.040 I want to show you this crazy new watch. We have, 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:38.200 the Horological Machine eleven. HM eleven, which is they call 1:12:38.280 --> 1:12:41.080 the Architect and it's a little round watch that looks 1:12:41.080 --> 1:12:44.080 like a UFO. It has four different sort of conical 1:12:44.120 --> 1:12:47.639 sections that have different little surprises in them. So one 1:12:47.640 --> 1:12:51.200 tells the time, one has the crown, one shows the 1:12:51.240 --> 1:12:54.599 power reserve, and one has a thermometer, a mechanical thermometer, 1:12:54.640 --> 1:12:56.800 So it's a thermometer that tells the temperature based on 1:12:56.840 --> 1:12:59.439 attention in a coil, which you have on your Apple watch. 1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:02.599 But for a mechanical watch, that's pretty unusual. And I 1:13:02.680 --> 1:13:04.599 just love the way it looked. It's the only time 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:06.120 I'll ever wear it because it's two hundred and thirty 1:13:06.120 --> 1:13:09.879 thousand dollars, but it definitely caused a sensation. There's sometimes 1:13:09.880 --> 1:13:11.400 I'll see a watch and be like this is. 1:13:11.479 --> 1:13:13.360 But there's a problem with these, which is if somebody 1:13:13.400 --> 1:13:14.840 comes up and asks you what time it is, you 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:17.240 have to like look through a little people and shake out. 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:20.600 Not really, I mean sometimes yes, but this one you 1:13:20.600 --> 1:13:21.679 can tell a time pretty easily. 1:13:21.720 --> 1:13:22.040 Okay. 1:13:22.400 --> 1:13:24.559 One of the people on your team who has among 1:13:24.560 --> 1:13:28.439 the most enviable jobs, I think is Nicki Eckstein, who 1:13:28.600 --> 1:13:32.120 gets to travel all over the world, stay in different hotels, 1:13:32.160 --> 1:13:35.600 all over the world. Interestingly enough, her favorite hotel this 1:13:35.680 --> 1:13:37.200 year was actually one here in the US. 1:13:37.400 --> 1:13:37.599 Yeah. 1:13:37.600 --> 1:13:41.040 So Nicki is our the Bloomberg's Travels are and she's 1:13:41.080 --> 1:13:43.439 been pursuits as travel editor for many years, and so 1:13:43.479 --> 1:13:45.439 this year she actually checked in a bunch of classics, 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:48.800 like hotels that are not necessarily new but have been refurbished, 1:13:48.880 --> 1:13:51.240 like Clarridges in London and the Carlisle in New York 1:13:51.439 --> 1:13:54.719 and the Bristol in Paris, which are really fabulous hotels. 1:13:55.000 --> 1:13:58.760 But her favorite hotel was the Montage Palmetto Bluff, which 1:13:58.880 --> 1:14:01.720 is between Hilton in Savannah, and it's kind of like 1:14:01.760 --> 1:14:05.639 a little community, little cottages and suites. And she went 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:08.320 with there with her kids, and so she has she 1:14:08.360 --> 1:14:10.519 has two young kids. For a travel editor, that's like 1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:12.519 a whole different paradigm because you can't kind of go 1:14:12.560 --> 1:14:14.599 on these wild adventures. You have to really figure out 1:14:14.640 --> 1:14:16.400 how to do stuff and. 1:14:16.360 --> 1:14:17.040 To check bags. 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:20.200 Sometimes when you have to nightmare, it's a nightmare scenario. 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:25.360 And she just found that the Montage was like really 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:28.759 wonderful for kids, had great activities for adults like boating 1:14:28.880 --> 1:14:31.680 the beach. They had every night, they had cooked giants'mores. 1:14:32.280 --> 1:14:34.519 The staff was super nice, and she just felt like 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:37.160 it was such a treat in a way that sometimes 1:14:37.200 --> 1:14:38.759 hotels forget about these days. 1:14:38.960 --> 1:14:41.000 If you were to think about the trends that we're 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:43.639 going to see next year for hotels and for traveling, 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:46.680 what's on your radar, what's on Nikki's radar, that's a 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:51.080 great question. So travel is still travels booming, and it's 1:14:51.120 --> 1:14:53.800 really it's been coming back since the pandemic. People are 1:14:53.800 --> 1:14:57.439 switching their spend from buying things to buying experiences. We're 1:14:57.439 --> 1:15:00.360 seeing that continue some parts of the world or not 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:03.479 are seeing travel soften, especially in the Middle East because 1:15:03.479 --> 1:15:05.920 of the war. What companies are trying to do big 1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:08.439 hotel companies are trying to figure out a way to 1:15:08.560 --> 1:15:12.360 blend business travel and leisure travel because people are actually 1:15:12.439 --> 1:15:16.799 traveling less for business, but they are able to travel 1:15:17.479 --> 1:15:20.280 more because their business is more flexible. So there's you're 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:24.280 finding hotels that are cropping up basically like hotel communities 1:15:24.360 --> 1:15:26.360 near airports where people can go and kind of have 1:15:26.360 --> 1:15:28.320 a home base in a city where they can fly in, 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:30.920 in and out easily, but it's almost like a residence area, 1:15:30.960 --> 1:15:33.840 like they're doing this in Atlanta, where you can you know, 1:15:33.840 --> 1:15:36.840 there's shared workspaces, there's amenities and stuff like that, so 1:15:36.840 --> 1:15:38.559 that this hotel can kind of be a home away 1:15:38.560 --> 1:15:41.000 from home, doesn't feel so much like an anonymous place 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:44.320 that you're just passing through, because people realize you can 1:15:44.320 --> 1:15:46.679 work from different places, your life can be more nomadic, 1:15:47.000 --> 1:15:50.679 and you're seeing countries do that too, like digital nomad 1:15:50.760 --> 1:15:54.000 programs that are still going strong. So we can't talk 1:15:54.040 --> 1:15:57.880 about travel without talking about dining. And Kate Crator, who 1:15:57.960 --> 1:15:59.479 used to be based here in New York, is now 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:02.160 based in life in Yep and she gets to eat 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:03.160 at different. 1:16:02.840 --> 1:16:05.880 Restaurants for a living. She does. That is her job title. 1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:06.559 What did. 1:16:08.080 --> 1:16:11.960 It sounds better coming from you guys? What stuck out 1:16:11.960 --> 1:16:12.559 to her this year? 1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:15.479 So she Kate lives in London and goes to all 1:16:15.479 --> 1:16:18.080 the amazing restaurants in London, and she is from New York. 1:16:18.120 --> 1:16:19.880 She's like the Queen of New York food. So she 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:22.519 has eaten everywhere that's good here. But this year she 1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:25.680 went to South Korea and she went to Seoul, and 1:16:25.720 --> 1:16:29.040 she went to Busan, and she went to this place 1:16:29.080 --> 1:16:32.040 in Seoul called Born and Bread, where she had a 1:16:32.120 --> 1:16:36.040 twenty course meal that was just han Wu beef, which 1:16:36.080 --> 1:16:38.839 is a particular kind of beef that it's like wagu, 1:16:39.600 --> 1:16:41.439 but it's just in creed. It's very difficult to get 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:45.240 it outside of Korea, and this chef Min Kongwan serves 1:16:45.280 --> 1:16:47.760 it twenty different ways, so it's like the best beef 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:52.040 in the world, twenty different ways, like melting, slices of chuck, 1:16:52.240 --> 1:16:55.960 like tartar, tons of different textures. And she said, just 1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:57.960 watching them cook it, because they cook it in front 1:16:57.960 --> 1:17:00.479 of you and then serving it to you, which really cardible. 1:17:00.520 --> 1:17:02.400 Okay, I'm going to go eat there. That sounds good. 1:17:02.479 --> 1:17:04.320 Just go, Chris. We only have a minute left. Yeah, 1:17:04.360 --> 1:17:05.680 I want you to choose. Are we going to talk 1:17:05.680 --> 1:17:07.920 about art, wine or cars. 1:17:08.600 --> 1:17:11.439 Let's talk about cars, okay, because a lot of the 1:17:11.439 --> 1:17:13.519 great art exhibits from this year were like once in 1:17:13.560 --> 1:17:15.680 a lifetime things that are closing soon. So I want 1:17:15.720 --> 1:17:19.000 to recommend two of the cars that Hannah Elliot, our 1:17:19.000 --> 1:17:20.120 car columnists, tried out. 1:17:20.640 --> 1:17:24.040 They're very expensive, but they are things in pursuits. 1:17:24.080 --> 1:17:28.040 But they both they're both electric versions of very exciting cars, 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:31.040 very top end cars, which will trickle down to influence 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:32.280 the way that we drive the rest of our cars. 1:17:32.280 --> 1:17:35.640 So there's the electric g Wagon, which is Mercedes like 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:39.599 off road, you know, really expensive. People love it. She 1:17:39.720 --> 1:17:41.880 was the first journalist to try it. She'd drove off road. 1:17:42.000 --> 1:17:44.600 She said it was incredible, the power. It was just 1:17:44.640 --> 1:17:47.519 as capable as a combustion engine version, actually more. And 1:17:47.560 --> 1:17:49.639 then she drove the Rolls Royce Specter, which is there 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:53.360 Rolls's first electric car, which she said is like the 1:17:53.400 --> 1:17:56.880 most Rolls Royce of Rolls Royces because it's silent, incredibly 1:17:56.920 --> 1:17:59.120 powerful and just super super luxurious. 1:17:59.120 --> 1:18:00.840 I think she got to go to Town, South Africa 1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:02.479 to do that. Yeah, she did, because her life is 1:18:02.479 --> 1:18:05.639 also extremely difficult. Yeah, that's another enviable job. 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:09.000 Before we let you go, twenty twenty four, how's it 1:18:09.080 --> 1:18:10.479 shaping up in Pursuits Land. 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:12.240 It's going to be a really interesting year. 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:14.679 There's a lot going on. There's a lot of hotels opening, 1:18:14.680 --> 1:18:18.120 a lot of really incredible restaurants coming back. We do 1:18:18.360 --> 1:18:20.040 a list at the beginning of January of the year 1:18:20.080 --> 1:18:22.200 where we tell you where to go in twenty twenty four, 1:18:22.560 --> 1:18:24.799 and that we're working on that list now. We're finishing 1:18:24.840 --> 1:18:27.959 it up, and it's a really there's some really exciting places. 1:18:28.920 --> 1:18:31.800 A lot of places in South America, Quito, Lima. I 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:34.200 can't give away too much, but Halifax, which is a 1:18:34.200 --> 1:18:36.240 favorite of mine, so you've got to check that out 1:18:36.240 --> 1:18:37.000 on January second. 1:18:37.040 --> 1:18:39.000 Okay, well, we're looking forward to that and we'll certainly 1:18:39.000 --> 1:18:40.960 have you back on the program to give us an 1:18:40.960 --> 1:18:43.760 idea of everywhere we should go to in twenty twenty four. 1:18:44.000 --> 1:18:45.800 Happy new year, Chris, and a big thank you as 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:49.000 always to our Bloomberg Pursuits editor Chris Rouser, looking forward 1:18:49.040 --> 1:18:51.800 to what comes next from the best team out there covering. 1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:54.160 Luxury and culture. You guys are the best. 1:18:54.439 --> 1:18:58.040 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 1:18:58.040 --> 1:19:01.400 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 1:19:01.479 --> 1:19:05.479 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, 1:19:05.800 --> 1:19:07.439 or watch us live on YouTube. 1:19:09.000 --> 1:19:10.439 Unless you even live it under a rock. 1:19:10.479 --> 1:19:12.479 Then you're familiar with the so called the weight loss 1:19:12.560 --> 1:19:16.280 drugs we go vio Zepic, zep bound, and monduro The 1:19:16.280 --> 1:19:20.440 weight loss benefits have been well documented, but now researchers 1:19:20.479 --> 1:19:23.200 are pushing this class of drugs that became famous for 1:19:23.240 --> 1:19:26.200 helping people lose weight and testing the shots across a 1:19:26.240 --> 1:19:29.719 spectrum of disorders, from Alzheimer's disease to sleep apneil. 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:30.559 We've talked about this. 1:19:31.120 --> 1:19:35.880 They're also testing it out on alcoholism. However, in the 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:39.439 case of alcoholism, Novo Nordisk, which is the Danish drug 1:19:39.439 --> 1:19:43.599 maker behind we go Vi, isn't even involved. Though one 1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:46.200 study is happening in its hometown. It didn't even agree 1:19:46.240 --> 1:19:49.559 to supply scientists with the medicines. Neither is Eli Lilly, 1:19:49.560 --> 1:19:53.599 which makes zep Bound and monduro Malomi Kresky and Madison 1:19:53.640 --> 1:19:56.160 Muller write about the alcoholics who are seeking a cure 1:19:56.240 --> 1:19:59.400 from these drugs, but without Big Pharmer's help. Madison Moller 1:19:59.479 --> 1:20:01.320 is health reported for Bloomberg News, and she joins us 1:20:01.360 --> 1:20:05.519 here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. It's so rare 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:09.240 to see an example of a study that's not actually 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:14.639 supported in some way by the manufacturer of a specific drug, 1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:16.200 especially one that's so lucrative. 1:20:16.200 --> 1:20:17.719 What's going on here exactly? 1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:21.000 I mean, you'd think that these companies want to study 1:20:21.040 --> 1:20:23.719 the drugs in as many indications as they can because 1:20:23.760 --> 1:20:27.000 for them, you know, that helps expand it to more patients, 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:30.960 and you know, it's a clear business opportunity, but in 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:33.639 this case, we're not seeing that. And you know, one 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:36.519 of the reasons that the experts and the scientists that 1:20:36.560 --> 1:20:39.120 we talked to for this story gave for that is 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:43.080 that utilization of alcohol disorder drugs in the US is 1:20:43.200 --> 1:20:45.800 so low that the drug makers just don't see this 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:47.360 as a good business opportunity. 1:20:48.000 --> 1:20:50.240 Why has the utilization been low? I mean, couldn't there 1:20:50.280 --> 1:20:52.679 be a whole host of reasons. I mean, one, maybe 1:20:52.680 --> 1:20:54.599 they haven't been effective, right. 1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:56.519 And I mean I was even surprised. I mean, I 1:20:56.520 --> 1:20:58.280 don't know if you knew this, but in the process 1:20:58.280 --> 1:21:01.000 of reporting this story, I didn't even realize that there 1:21:01.000 --> 1:21:05.040 were three or four alcohol on the market. I was like, oh, 1:21:05.040 --> 1:21:06.439 I thought there was one, or you know, and it 1:21:06.479 --> 1:21:09.560 didn't work or something. And these drugs do work, they're effective, 1:21:09.560 --> 1:21:14.280 but they're not there's side effects, and not every doctor, 1:21:14.400 --> 1:21:18.280 even like some addiction doctors, are not really well educated 1:21:18.360 --> 1:21:21.000 in how to prescribe these drugs to patients, how to 1:21:21.040 --> 1:21:24.320 sort of oversee that process. There usually is a lengthy 1:21:24.360 --> 1:21:28.240 prior authorization, you know, process to actually even write a prescription, 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:30.880 which doctors are busy and they don't even have time 1:21:30.920 --> 1:21:34.680 for resources to do and so there's a lot of 1:21:34.800 --> 1:21:39.400 barriers to get people on these drugs currently, you know, 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:41.280 And that's not even getting into the stigma of all 1:21:41.320 --> 1:21:44.120 of this and the fact that people just sometimes don't 1:21:44.160 --> 1:21:46.519 believe that you should be using drugs to treat alcohol 1:21:46.560 --> 1:21:47.080 use disorder. 1:21:47.120 --> 1:21:50.320 So is that a part of this story too, Yeah. 1:21:50.160 --> 1:21:52.680 I mean, the stigma definitely is a huge thing, and 1:21:52.720 --> 1:21:55.759 that's something in the conversations with these scientists, every single 1:21:55.760 --> 1:21:57.760 one of them brought that up, and they were like, 1:21:58.080 --> 1:22:01.240 aside from the business case that these companies, you know, 1:22:01.280 --> 1:22:05.240 maybe don't see potential here, the stigma is still such 1:22:05.280 --> 1:22:07.920 a big issue. And that's an issue that you know, 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:10.640 is there regardless of whether or not Novo Nordisk and 1:22:10.680 --> 1:22:14.080 Eli Lilly are supporting these studies. It's just a continuous 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:15.360 problem for this field. 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:18.519 Is it being used off label for this right now? 1:22:19.320 --> 1:22:21.880 I've seen anecdotal tweets about this. I've seen anecdotal tweets 1:22:21.920 --> 1:22:24.280 that have said not by people who have alcohol use disorder, 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.680 but they say basically, hey, I went on this and 1:22:27.720 --> 1:22:30.760 it stopped me from eating a lot. It stopped me 1:22:30.760 --> 1:22:33.240 from drinking a lot, right so. 1:22:33.960 --> 1:22:35.960 Yeah, and I mean that's the reason why some of 1:22:36.000 --> 1:22:39.400 the some of these Interestingly, some of these studies happened 1:22:39.400 --> 1:22:41.920 and started, or the researchers were at least in the 1:22:41.960 --> 1:22:44.720 process of getting these studies going long before sort of 1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:46.920 the hype around these way laws drugs really took off 1:22:46.920 --> 1:22:49.559 this last year. I mean, they had been looking at, 1:22:49.800 --> 1:22:53.559 you know, anecdotal reports from ozembic because ozempic, remember was 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:56.000 approved several years ago, so they've sort of been hearing 1:22:56.000 --> 1:22:59.120 about this now for a few years from you know, 1:22:59.240 --> 1:23:03.040 psychologists and psychiatrists that have been talking about this sort 1:23:03.040 --> 1:23:05.360 of in their inner circles, and then there's there was 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:09.200 also some pre clinical studies done and some early studies 1:23:09.200 --> 1:23:11.599 done in patients. So some of these researchers have been 1:23:11.640 --> 1:23:14.880 looking at this for a while. The other ones heard 1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:17.439 about this just sort of within the last year from 1:23:17.520 --> 1:23:19.920 you know, anecdotally from people on Twitter being like I 1:23:19.960 --> 1:23:22.600 had no desire to drink after going on ozembic, and 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.320 they were like, this is super exciting. We have to 1:23:25.320 --> 1:23:28.160 see what's going on here, and so they launched studies 1:23:28.200 --> 1:23:29.519 sort of as a result of that. 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:34.120 So you and Naomi Kresky, who's in our she's she 1:23:34.240 --> 1:23:35.519 based she's based in Berlin. 1:23:35.600 --> 1:23:38.160 Berlin, Yeah, so she. 1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:40.519 Helps cover this from the European angle. You both did 1:23:40.560 --> 1:23:44.160 some reporting actually in Denmark. Talk to us a little 1:23:44.160 --> 1:23:45.720 bit about what you found in terms of these like 1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:48.360 who's who are doing these trials and people who you 1:23:48.400 --> 1:23:49.320 and Naomi spoke to. 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:51.320 Yeah, so it was it was really fun to work 1:23:51.320 --> 1:23:53.280 with Naomi because she's obviously in brillant, so she was 1:23:53.320 --> 1:23:56.240 able to go to Copenhagen and talk to the researchers 1:23:56.280 --> 1:24:00.759 and patients and nurses and everyone that's helping run this study. 1:24:00.760 --> 1:24:02.960 And we also had help from colleagues in the Copenhagen 1:24:02.960 --> 1:24:05.160 Bureau who went out and talked to some of these 1:24:05.200 --> 1:24:08.160 people involved in these studies as well. And then on 1:24:08.200 --> 1:24:11.040 the US side of things, there's like four or five 1:24:11.120 --> 1:24:14.040 studies happening at least four studies happening here as well, 1:24:14.080 --> 1:24:16.000 So I sort of went out and talked all the 1:24:16.120 --> 1:24:19.960 US researchers. And it's funny because they all met at 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:22.880 a conference over the summer. It was, you know, some 1:24:23.120 --> 1:24:25.680 addiction conference, and they all came together and were like, 1:24:26.040 --> 1:24:29.439 oh wow, we're all studying this thing. They got dinner 1:24:29.479 --> 1:24:31.679 and they talked about it and sort of made sure 1:24:31.720 --> 1:24:34.320 that their studies were lining up. And they've all continued 1:24:34.360 --> 1:24:39.400 to communicate since. And it's cool to see their excitement 1:24:39.439 --> 1:24:42.439 because some of them have been studying addiction alcoholism for 1:24:43.240 --> 1:24:46.320 decades and they were like, this is one of the 1:24:46.360 --> 1:24:49.840 most exciting times in the history of this field right now, 1:24:49.880 --> 1:24:54.000 because it's just it's sort of difficult to find breakthroughs 1:24:54.080 --> 1:24:57.960 because there's just not a lot of pharmaceutical companies funding 1:24:58.000 --> 1:24:59.760 these types of studies. There's not a lot of like 1:24:59.800 --> 1:25:01.479 in happening in this field. 1:25:01.840 --> 1:25:04.320 Break down the science for us. You know, why do 1:25:04.439 --> 1:25:10.519 scientists and researchers believe that these GLP one agonists, Yeah, 1:25:10.720 --> 1:25:14.280 can actually help people who have alcohol use disorder. 1:25:14.400 --> 1:25:18.960 Yeah, it's super interesting because they don't really know exactly 1:25:19.040 --> 1:25:21.320 why it should work yet. And that's one of the 1:25:21.400 --> 1:25:24.080 amazing things about these drugs is like we are when 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:26.400 we've talked about this on the show, like seeing all 1:25:26.439 --> 1:25:29.000 of these other health effects, and a lot of times 1:25:29.080 --> 1:25:30.720 the answer is, we don't really know why some of 1:25:30.720 --> 1:25:32.960 them are happening. And in this case, we know that 1:25:33.000 --> 1:25:36.720 there's a connection in the you know, brain pathways that 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:41.240 regulate rewards systems. So when we eat food, the same 1:25:41.320 --> 1:25:43.360 feelings of pleasure that we get and maybe from other 1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:47.360 things from drinking, there's there's some interconnections in the brain 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:50.160 that regulates those feelings of pleasure that we get from 1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:52.759 doing different activities, and so they think that the drugs 1:25:52.760 --> 1:25:54.960 are having an effect there, which we know that they 1:25:55.080 --> 1:25:57.599 do have an effect in the brain. I mean, they 1:25:57.640 --> 1:26:02.479 make you feel satisfied after eating food. And so there's 1:26:02.560 --> 1:26:06.400 some other neuroscientists that I've talked to who think that 1:26:06.439 --> 1:26:11.000 the drugs could affect a person's strongest craving. So for 1:26:11.080 --> 1:26:13.640 some people that might be food. For some people that 1:26:13.680 --> 1:26:16.599 could be alcohol, for others, it could be other things. 1:26:16.640 --> 1:26:18.920 Maybe you know, it's just the drugs aren't really being 1:26:19.000 --> 1:26:19.919 used in that population. 1:26:20.120 --> 1:26:20.599 That's interesting. 1:26:20.640 --> 1:26:22.400 So the strongest let's say you're strongest s craving is 1:26:22.439 --> 1:26:25.840 or something that's not food or right, you know, alcohol, right, 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:28.200 addicted to something else like yeah, drugs or something. 1:26:28.280 --> 1:26:28.519 Yeah. 1:26:28.520 --> 1:26:30.240 And one of the researchers we talked to in this 1:26:30.280 --> 1:26:34.880 story is also studying GLP one drugs in people who 1:26:34.920 --> 1:26:38.360 are addicted to nicotine and cigarettes, so similar there's a 1:26:38.400 --> 1:26:41.639 lot of different different things that you could used for well. 1:26:41.600 --> 1:26:43.839 It's an incredible story. We love all of your coverage 1:26:43.840 --> 1:26:47.639 when it comes to these Madison Madison Mueller is health 1:26:47.640 --> 1:26:51.160 reporter for Bloomberg News. Check out our story Alcoholics seek 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:53.439 a cure and we go v without Big Pharma's help. 1:26:53.439 --> 1:26:55.840 It's available on the Bloomberg Terminal and. 1:26:55.880 --> 1:26:58.720 At Bloomberg dot com. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:07.840 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:11.639 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:27:11.680 --> 1:27:15.320 afternoons from three to six Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 1:27:15.360 --> 1:27:18.679 the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. 1:27:18.720 --> 1:27:21.679 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:27:21.920 --> 1:27:24.120 and always on the Bloomberg Terminale