1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World, My guest today is 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: the remarkably talented writer Malcolm Gladwell. He is the author 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: of six New York Times bestsellers, including Talking to Strangers, 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: David and Goliath, Outliers, Blink, and The Tipping Point. He 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: is the co founder and president of Pushkin Industries, an 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: audiobook and podcast production company that produces the podcasts Revisionist History, 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: Broken Record, a music interview show, and Solvable, in which 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Gladwell interviews innovative thinkers with solutions to some of the 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: world's biggest problems. He's here to talk about his new 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: book The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, A Temptation, and The 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: Longest Night of the Second World War. Malcolm gladwe Well 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: as one of those people who just has captured the 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: American spirit as a minor author. By his standards, I 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: look on his work as just a remarkable achievement. I'm 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: amazed at The Tipping Point, how little things can make 16 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: a big difference. Back in the year two thousand, which 17 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: really became an amazingly talked about book that I think 18 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: really gave a lot of people some new insights. And 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: then he came back with Blink, the Power of Thinking 20 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Without Thinking in two thousand and five, which again permeated 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: the culture. Then he wrote Outliers, The Story of Success 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and then What the Dog 23 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: Saw and Other Adventures in two thousand and nine, and 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: finally David and Goliath Underdogs Misfits in the Art of 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: Battling Giants in twenty thirteen. And now he's back with 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: a really interesting book on the Bomber Mafia, A Dream, 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: A Temptation, and The Longest Night of the Second World War. 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: I've had a long interest personally as a historian in 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: World War Two and in the bomber Mafia and the 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: gap between what they believed was possible and what was possible. 31 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: But before we get into your new book, The Bomber Mafia, 32 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, how did you get into this. Your 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: mother was a psychotherapist, your father's a mathematician. That's certainly 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: a wide range of experiences in one household. But how 35 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: did all that lead you to your first book? 36 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: My first book, Well, I was a science reporter at 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: the Washington Post. I didn't study sciences in college. It 38 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: was also something I was discovering for the first time, 39 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: and the tipic But my first book really came about 40 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: because I was one of the Washington Post reporters who 41 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: was covering the AIDS epidemic, and I was spending all 42 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 2: this time with epidemiologists, and I became fascinated with how 43 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: epidemics work. And you know, of course, now we've all 44 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: become amateur epidemiola just over the last year and a half, 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: but this was way back in the eighties, and I'd 46 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: never encountered this before, just this idea that you could 47 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: have these unbelievably disruptive phenomenon that can sweep across a society, 48 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: and the phenomenon of these kinds of incredibly rapid, fast 49 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: growing epidemics. These things don't proceed carefully and slowly. They explode, 50 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: and the human brain is not really well set up 51 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: to deal with explosions. And that was really what got 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: me interested in that subject. 53 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: So I'm curious because you open a different door that 54 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: I simply have to go through for a minute. Given 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: your background and giving the work you did on HIV, 56 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: which I remember, I was a very junior congressman at 57 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: the time, and I remember working both with the Center 58 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: for Disease Control, which I represented in Congress, and helped 59 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: with funding on a regular basis, and also talking with 60 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: people at NIH, including doctor Fauci. How do you respond 61 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: to a turn but the last year as it relates 62 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: to COVID, given the depth of experience you had in 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: covering an earlier and very different kind of epidemic. 64 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that we forgot some of 65 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: the more important lessons from HIV. We would have been 66 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 2: This is going to seem like a curious thing to say, 67 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: but had less time separated those two epidemics, I feel 68 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 2: like we would have been better off. And you know 69 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: this is true, and we're shortly going to talk about 70 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: wars and armies. This is even more the case in 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: the military that the experience of having gone through a 72 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: particular kind of conflict is so powerful and illuminating on 73 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: the judgment of the participants that it shapes the way 74 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: they deal with all other future crises in their career. 75 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: And that's why when you lose a cod of people 76 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: who have fought a war, you start over. This is 77 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: what's so frustrated about human beings. You know, a certain 78 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: generation dies off, retires, what have you, and the people 79 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: who come behind them don't sit down and study the 80 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: lessons of their forbears. They start over and they make 81 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: the same mistakes, and it's maddening. I feel like if 82 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: there had been ten years between the First World War 83 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: and the Second World War, would the Second World War 84 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: have been different? Maybe, certainly, if there'd been less time 85 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: between Korea and Vietnam, maybe we would have been better off. 86 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can sort of play this 87 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: game endlessly. The game I played with COVID was I 88 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: think the great lesson of HIV in the end is 89 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 2: that epidemics are social phenomenon that you don't have to 90 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: understand the biology of the virus in order to thwart 91 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: the virus. You have to understand people, how to talk 92 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: to them, how to communicate with them, how to get 93 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: them aboard on any kind of crusade. And I feel 94 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: like we didn't do a very good job of that. 95 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: We got sort of caught up in all kinds of 96 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: issues that were secondary to getting the population behind a 97 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: coherence persuasive strategy. 98 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: I almost feel that sometimes the sheer volume of media 99 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: makes it harder to understand rather than easier, And then 100 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: you get into daily cycles of briefings that gradually make 101 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: people numb and lead them to know who to believe. 102 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: But let me use that for a jumping off point 103 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: about your book The Bomber Mafia, because this fits perfectly. 104 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: It is one of the great examples I think of 105 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: people who in a sense impose a particular model on reality. 106 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: And in the case of World War Two, the generals 107 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: who were at the key places actually had the resources 108 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: and the reach to do it. But it's certainly a 109 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: very different topic than you had written on up till now. 110 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: What led you to Pickett? 111 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 2: Well, I've always been a history buff and I've always 112 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: wanted to write a pure history book. But the problem 113 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: with writing about history is that the competition's pretty ferocious. 114 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: There's almost no field of kind of modern American letters 115 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: where there are more quality people operating in than history. 116 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 3: Right. 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I could name you, and I could do 118 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: the same thing. We could sit called with ten names 119 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: of truly a plus historians who write fantastic popular history. 120 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: That's super daunting. So I was like, you know, I 121 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: don't think I can play that game. And then I 122 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: wanted to write the Second Mold Boar for the reasons 123 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: I talk about in the book, you know, for family reasons. 124 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: My father was a kid in Kent in the beginning 125 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: of the Join the Blitz, and he would sleep under 126 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: his bed. His mom would tell him to sleep under 127 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: his bed when the German bombers flew overhead every night 128 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: on their way to flat in London. So it's like 129 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: I grew up on these stories and I always wanted 130 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: to write about the Second Mold Boar. I always despair 131 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: because I thought, surely every great story from the Second 132 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,679 Speaker 2: Mold Boar has been told, and then I finally thought 133 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: I'd found one that hadn't been told for a general audience. 134 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, serious historians know all about the Bottle Mafia, 135 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: but I didn't think they'd been a popular book about them. 136 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 2: And that's what I was like. I may I was like, nude, 137 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: I may never get another chance. I was like, I 138 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: better do this right now or someone's gonna beat me 139 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: to the punch. 140 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: That's great, But as I understand it, though, you originally 141 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: started out as an audio. 142 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: Book, Yes, so this was the book really intended to 143 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: be listened to, because I wanted to tell the story 144 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: about this renegade group of pilots at Maxwell Air Force 145 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: Base in the thirties and this vision they had of 146 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: reforming war and how they brought that vision into the 147 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: Second World War. And I quickly realized that the Air Force, 148 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 2: being the Air Force, they have perfect records. I mean, 149 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: this is what you It's so funny whenever people like 150 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: rag on the military or various parts of government as 151 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: being inefficient or clueless story in compston, I was like, actually, 152 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: if you hang around the Air Force long enough, you 153 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 2: come to the exact opposite conclusion. This is a group 154 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 2: of people who know what they're doing, and they have 155 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: astonishing archives on the Second World War. You can go 156 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: to Maxwell Air Force Base into the library and they 157 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 2: have mountains of audio tape of oral histories, brilliantly down 158 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: oral histories where they sit down with every key Air 159 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: Force figure in the Second World War. They do it 160 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: in the fifties or the sixties when these guys are 161 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: still alive and looking back on their experience, and. 162 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: They basically deepbrief them. 163 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: For the benefit of the public. And I found this 164 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: tape and I was like, you know, I can write 165 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: about Curtis la May or I can just play you 166 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: tape of Curtis le May What would you rather hear? 167 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: You know? And the voice is you cannot understand Curtis 168 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: la May until you hear him and you want to said, oh, 169 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: this is what he is. He's like a warrior, right, 170 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: he is an uncompromising, unsentimental, brilliant, hard nosed warrior, and 171 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: you can hear it in his voice, and you can 172 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: almost hear him when he's talking take the cigar out 173 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: of his mouth to answer the question. You know, I 174 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: mean when I realized there was all of this ability 175 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: to bring the story to life, I said, I'm going 176 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: to start by making the greatest audiobook I can where 177 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: I use all this tape to create an experience. When 178 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: I talk about the bombing rate on Schweinfurt, I want 179 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: you to feel like you're there. And when I talk 180 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: about the bombing rate on Tokyo in March of forty five, 181 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: I want you to feel like you are in one 182 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: of those bombers, one of those super fortresses flying from 183 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: Guam to Tokyo. So that was our intention. We would 184 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: start by doing a different kind of audiobook and then 185 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: we'd spun off the print book from it. 186 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: You know, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right, 187 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: there are brilliant opportunities to bring modern history at least 188 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: to life, because we have so much of it on 189 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: tape and we can actually look people here from the 190 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: original people. I've been going down to Maxwell for about 191 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: thirty five years. 192 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that, And yeah, I've. 193 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: Been teaching several courses down there. 194 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: What do you teach there? 195 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: They have a course called the Joint War Fighting Course, 196 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: and it's on how to think about theater command and 197 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: basically involves two star generals from all the different services 198 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: and admirals. And at one point in that process, a 199 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: very dear friend of mine, Chuck Boyd, who was a 200 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: very long time Vietnam prisoner of war and the only 201 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: prisoner of war to come back and get four stars. 202 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: Extraordinarily brilliant guy, and he was the head of the 203 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: Air University, and he had courtisil May coming down and 204 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: arranged it so that I would be there teaching and 205 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: then we would have dinner with le May. 206 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, you met le May and we. 207 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: Spent an entire evening and it was just like this 208 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: astonishing experience of a guy who was both very smart 209 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: and very ruthless. 210 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 211 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: I asked him a couple of questions a triggered him, 212 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: and it was amazing to watch him just go off. 213 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: At one point, he's sitting next to me at dinner 214 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: and returned began hitting me in the arm because he 215 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: was just so filled with energy. And he said, actually 216 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: that it was the experience of being at the tactical 217 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: school that taught him how to write an eight paragraph 218 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: field order, and when he got to England, he said 219 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: his greatest contribution to the war was teaching the staff 220 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: of the Air Force in Europe, who had not gone 221 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: to the school, how to write a competent order, because 222 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: they were sending out these multi page, hard to understand, 223 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: convoluted things, and he would take them and he'd rewrite 224 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: them back into what was a standard PRIG order and 225 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: send it back to him say is this way you 226 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: meant to send me? And after about eight or nine 227 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: weeks they said, oh yeah, and they began to learn 228 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: how to do it. He then said he was in 229 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: charge of the seventeen unit. They were frankly not doing 230 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: very well, and partly they weren't doing very well because 231 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: they were bobbing and weaving to avoid the Uni aircraft fire, 232 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: so they could not get lined up to drop the 233 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: bombs accurately. And he called a meeting because he had 234 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: remembered from his nineteen twenty nine Ohio University ROTC manual 235 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: the likelihood of an eighty eight anti aircraft show and 236 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: a plane being in the same space, And it turned 237 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: out to be exactly the same likelihood whether you were 238 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: going straight or you were bobbing and weaving. And so 239 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: he called all of us senior commanders and said, we're 240 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: going to fly straight. And they said, you can't fly straight, 241 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: you know. He said, trust me, you're as likely to 242 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: be shot down, you know, bobbing and weaving, and frankly, 243 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: bobbing and weaving, you aren't hitting anything. And they said, well, 244 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: but we can't do this. He said, I'll tell you 245 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: what if you really don't want to do it, I 246 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: went to ground the entire wing and save the taxpayers 247 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: the aviation fuel, because since we're not doing any good anyway, 248 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: why waste the gasoline. 249 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: And so I said, okay, all right, you left up 250 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: the most important part of the story. And he said, 251 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 2: and if you don't believe me, I'll show you how 252 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: it's done. I'll lead the first attack. I was going 253 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: to get to that because he said, I believe it enough. 254 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to lead the attack. And then he turned 255 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: to me. 256 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: He said, I was totally terrified when we took off, 257 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: and I said, God, I hope that Manual was right, 258 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: but to be there in his presence. And this is 259 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: why what you're doing is so fascinating, because you're going 260 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: to expose people in the audio version. You're going to 261 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: expose them to the quality of the voice, the intensity 262 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: of the communication, and a lot of these historic figures 263 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: they are different, you know, they're not just bigger versions 264 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: of normal. 265 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: My impression from researching and reporting this book, Curtis the 266 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: mat was the greatest comp commander of the Second World 267 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: War in any domain. Now, maybe I got so caught 268 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: up in the Air Force in this that I'm being very, 269 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: very partial to the Air Force, but it struck me 270 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: that it is hard to find another single individual in 271 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: the Second World War who contributed as much to particularly 272 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: our tactical understanding of how to fight the enemy effectively. 273 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: This is one guy. I mean, we just nibbling. The 274 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: thing you just described is just one of a whole 275 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: series of innovations that he made in how we should 276 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: bomb more effectively. One guy made this insane contribution. 277 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: Well, and you know it continues after the war because 278 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: he's brought back to rebuild the Strategic Air Command at Omaha. 279 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: And there's this great story where he arrives at the 280 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: place is a dump and the morale is terrible and 281 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: they don't have any money. This is a nineteen forty 282 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: nine before the Korean War build up, and so he 283 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: announces that they've got this building that if it had 284 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: been painted and cleaned up, be a great gymnasium, but 285 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: they don't have any money to hire painters and so forth, 286 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: and so he finds a little bit of money for 287 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: paint and he sends out on a Wednesday or Thursday 288 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: that this Saturday, the commanding General will be painting and 289 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: would be glad to have anybody who'd like to come 290 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: and volunteer. And he said, by the end of the 291 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: day it was all painted and they now had a gymnasium. 292 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: And the degree to which that single act of leadership 293 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: raised their morale was just astonishing. But you raise an 294 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: interesting question. I think that what le Maay had was, 295 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: first of all, he was amazingly smart. He had an 296 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: ability in a way that very few people do, to 297 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: understand that the purpose was to win the war, and 298 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: that was going to involve a great deal of carnage 299 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: and a great deal of violence, and that you had 300 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: to take people and train them because it wasn't a 301 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: natural behavior. And then you had to methodically just saw 302 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: problems and keep solving him and keep solving him, but 303 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: always with this notion that this was about winning the war. 304 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: In addition to Lomay, who we could probably do a 305 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: six hour podcast just talking about LeMay. But who else 306 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: did you find fascinated you and surprised you? 307 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: Well, Hey, what Hansel? So the borrom Maffie is really 308 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: a story of two men who come into conflict, Curtis 309 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: le May and his great antagonist, Hey with Hansel. And 310 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 2: Hansel is the idealistic version of le Maay. He is 311 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: the dreamer, the romantic. He's the one whose favorite book 312 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 2: is Don Quixote, and he is besotted with this idea 313 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: that war can be reformed and it is possible to 314 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 2: fight a war with the minimum of casualties on both sides. 315 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: And he falls in love with a set of technologies 316 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: that he thinks can move war from the nineteenth century 317 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 2: and fully into the twentieth century. And as you know, 318 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: he turns out to be not wrong, but premature. He's 319 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: imagining if Heyward Hansel would be alive today, he would 320 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: be quite comfortable with the way the Air Force does 321 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: its operations. He's just seventy five years early in his vision. 322 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: But I loved the contrast. This is why I wanted 323 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 2: to write the book. The contrast. You have these two 324 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: brilliant generals who could not be more different. Who are 325 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: you know? At one end of the spectrum, you have 326 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: the ruthless, unsentimental LeMay. At the other end you have 327 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 2: this dreamer, And I think you need them both in 328 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: an effective military. I'm glad we had dreamers, even if 329 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: the dreamer's dream didn't turn out to be practical. During 330 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: the Second World War, the thing about Heywood Hansel was 331 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: he and his cohorts down at Maxwell really were possessed 332 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 2: with a moral urgency. They did not want to replay 333 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: of the First World War. They thought that if they 334 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 2: could do one thing for humanity, it would be to 335 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: figure out a way not to have a recurrence of 336 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: that level of carnage. And they, I think established a 337 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: kind of philosophical and ethical tradition within the Air Force 338 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: that persists to this day. I spend some time in 339 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: this book talking to current Air Force leadership. 340 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 3: They are completely at home. 341 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: Speaking a kind of moral language about their obligations. It's 342 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: not foreign to them. They've read their history. They know 343 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: that in the back of their mind has to be 344 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: the consideration that war should be fought as cleanly as possible, 345 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: and they get that from people like heywod Hansel back 346 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: in the day. And I also have a kind of 347 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: soft spot for romantics. I mean, I like when people 348 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: have grand dreams, even if those dreams come to nought. 349 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: I think that really good institutions make room for those people. 350 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: One thing, more than anything that I came away from 351 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: doing this book was I came away with a level 352 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: of respect for the Air Force that I had not 353 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: had before. I didn't know anything about the Air Force before, 354 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: and I came away thinking, you know what, this is 355 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: a truly great American institution. And it's a great American 356 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: institution because it had room for dreamers and also warriors, 357 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: bloodthirsty warriors, and you need both. 358 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: One of the things I noticed that you did is 359 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: that you went to the center of the Tokyo Raids 360 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: and War Damage, which is a real research center for 361 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: that period of time. What did you learn from that? 362 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: Well, that's actually how I began in the book. I 363 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: was in Tokyo and happened to go to this little, 364 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: tiny museum on a side street in East Tokyo. It's 365 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 2: a private museum. It's not even a government museum. It 366 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: is the only permanent memorial installation devoted to the fire 367 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 2: bombing of Tokyo in March of nineteen forty five, about 368 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: the twenty first bombering command. And it is as plain 369 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever been there, Nute. It 370 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: is as plain and ordinary and prosaic a museum as 371 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: you will ever see. It looks, like I say in 372 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: the book, it looks like a dentist office. They probably 373 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: did the whole thing for a couple thousand dollars, but 374 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: it is the most moving, you know. I've done episodes 375 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,239 Speaker 2: of my podcast on memorials on what I think are 376 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: wrong with them. I'm not happy about the nine to 377 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: eleven memorial, for example. I think that was an exercise 378 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: in excess. This one because it was so simple and 379 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: straightforward and prosaic, it was extraordinarily moving, and it's what 380 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: sort of compelled me to ask the question how did 381 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: it come to pass that the US Air Force launched 382 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 2: in March of forty five one of the deadliest nights 383 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: of bombing in human history. And I also liked the 384 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: idea that this is something I didn't put in the book, 385 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: but I should have. So this is a museum that 386 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: is built by a Japanese historian to commemorate what happened 387 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: that night, And the first ninety percent of the museum 388 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: is about what the Americans did to Tokyo in March 389 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: of forty five. The last ten percent is how the 390 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: Japanese used the same incendiary bombing tactics against China at 391 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 2: the beginning of the war. So it is not a 392 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: one sided ideological exercise. He was making a point about 393 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 2: how wars sometimes end up being fought. The intention of 394 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 2: the museum was that we not forget this fact, but 395 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: it did not have an ideological agenda. The point of 396 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: the museum was to make you reflect on what happened, 397 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: educate you, and that he's so close to my ideal 398 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: version of what history ought to do. 399 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 3: And that's exactly what I did. Right. 400 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 2: Came away from that experience determined to shed light on 401 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 2: whatever led up to March ninth, nineteen forty five. What 402 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: is the ten year history that led us to one 403 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: of the most faithful decisions in the Second World War. 404 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think most people don't realize that the fire 405 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: bombing's actually killed far more people than the two nuclear weapons. 406 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: It was also true in Europe, and the great bombing 407 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: of Hamburg, for example, was just extraordinary. And it's interesting. 408 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: I had always thought that our aggressiveness about bombing cities 409 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: was in part a response to Pearl Harbor. But George Marshall, 410 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: the Chief of Staff of the Army, in the summer 411 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty one, while we're still at peace, gives 412 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: a speech and says, the Japanese will not dare to 413 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: attack us because their cities are wooden and they will burn. 414 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 1: And it just struck me as kind of amazing that 415 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: Marshall would already have understood the rhythm of what our 416 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: counter attack would be like. And then, of course with LeMay, 417 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: you get somebody who was just relentless and carrying it out. Yeah, 418 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: an amazing bombing campaign the winter of forty five. 419 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: This observation had been made on a regular basis by 420 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: the late nineteen thirties that there was a qualitative difference 421 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: between European and Japanese cities. You just walk around Berlin 422 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: and you compare that to walking around Tokyo, and you 423 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: see Berlin is really hard to burn down. It's too 424 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: much brick and stone, too many fire breaks, too many parks, 425 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: really wide streets, none of that. You can certainly drop 426 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: in sandires on Berlin and they'll do a little damage. 427 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: But we did calculations in the thirties about how effective 428 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: would in cendiires be on a typical European city, and 429 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: the answer is not that effective. And then they went 430 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: and did exactly the same studies on Japanese cities, and 431 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: you know, they are constructed completely opposite. The houses are 432 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: close together, the streets are narrow, the houses are made 433 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 2: out of wood and straw and tar paper. I mean, 434 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: Marshall's absolutely right, these things were tinderboxes. I have a 435 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: chapter in Baramafia on the creation of napalm. Napalm is 436 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: created in the Second World War for the explicit intention 437 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: of bombing Japanese cities because they were so flammable. I mean, 438 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: it was a US Army project to find the most 439 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: effective incendi area we could and it comes out of 440 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: Harvard University, a fact that Harvard is not very eager 441 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: to share with the world. You would think, dude, sorry 442 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: forgive me for this tangent. If you go to Harvard University, 443 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: you can go and I did this to the It's 444 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: still there the chemistry lab where napalm was invented. 445 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: Right. 446 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: You would think, wouldn't you that there would be a 447 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 2: little plaque that said nineteen forty one in this exact 448 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: chemistry laboratory, one of the most leath the weapons of 449 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: the twentieth century was invented. And then they can go 450 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: on all they want about whether that's a good or 451 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: bad thing. I don't really care. What I care about 452 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: is Look, if you make a list of the ten 453 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: most consequential inventions to come out of Harvard University, I'm sorry, 454 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: I've looked at that list. Nate Palm's number one. There's 455 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: no doubt about it. There is nothing that has been 456 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: invented at Harvard University that has had a greater impact 457 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: on the world than Nate Balm that came out in 458 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: nineteen forty one. You cannot find on the entire campus 459 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: a single mention of that fact. Where was the first 460 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: test of napalm. It was on the Harvard University soccer field. 461 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: Forgetdness sake. The whole thing was cooked up in Cambridge. 462 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 2: Will they tell us about this? No? 463 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: Why not? 464 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 2: Will you join me in this crusade? Nude, They've got 465 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: to acknowledge. They're so busy acknowledging all kinds of other 466 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: things they can't get around to the big one. 467 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: I suspect, given the current psychology and culture of Harvard, 468 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: that they would have a sense of guilt and humiliation. 469 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: Well, acknowledge that this is what drives me crazy, by 470 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: the way, about this moment, So acknowledge it. Just say 471 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: this was invented here, and say and we feel guilty 472 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: about it, Like that's fine with at this point where 473 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: we feel like the only time we can acknowledge our 474 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 2: history is when we're proud of it. Why it's fine. 475 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 2: We're intelligent human beings. Make the plaque two thousand words 476 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: long and tell me the whole story. 477 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: I did not know that story. So I'm still sitting 478 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: here absorbing it, and I can't wait till I see 479 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: some friends from Harvard. It's really good. And in fact, 480 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: we have somebody who was working with us right now 481 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: who is going to Harvard this fall. Maybe we'll make 482 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: her assignment to sneak into that lab and post something 483 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: up there, in which case we're going to put your 484 00:27:51,119 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: name on it. Malcolm Gladwell wanted you to know absolutely, yeah, 485 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: that's the sort of thing which could lead them to 486 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: either tear the building down as well as blow up 487 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: the soccer field and deny that it ever happened. 488 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: But no, But here's the thing new. 489 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: This is exactly the kind of moment when history is 490 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: really really important, and that is an opportunity to tell 491 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: people in a really interesting way about a complicated moment 492 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: in our country's history. And if you're a university, that's 493 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: your job, right, that's your job. 494 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: Well, you would think we live in an arrow and 495 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: it may not be their job, or at least as 496 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: they define themselves. But you know, here is a different, 497 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: really important point because you can go across the street 498 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: to the Lincoln Labs at MIT. The number of things 499 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: we invented in that small area that had a direct impact, 500 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: including proximity fuses, things that really decisively affected the war, 501 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: a whole range of things. It's kind of astonishing, and 502 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, most Americans have never heard of those kind 503 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: of contributions. But in some way ways, World War II 504 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: was the first time that science really was integral to 505 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: the whole war at every level, and that without the 506 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: science and engineering, you'd maybe you've been pushed back into 507 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: World War One. But let me ask you a moral 508 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: question for a second. I'm a big fan of LeMay, 509 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: and I'm a big fan of the US Air Force. 510 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: But in the end, the ability to deliver violence from 511 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: the air, if you count civilian lives as well as 512 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: military lives, it did not exactly end up saving lives. 513 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: It just transferred the point at which they died, and 514 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: so you ended up with these extraordinary bomber campaigns we 515 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: in the British against the Germans, and then US against 516 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: the je Andese. And of course, as you pointed out, 517 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: you'd also had the Germans and the Italians in Spain, 518 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: you'd had the Japanese in China. But airpower in that sense, 519 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: it seems to me, didn't in fact dramatically improve things 520 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: until they got genuine precision capabilities, which really only occurs 521 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: towards the very end of the Vietnam War. Because you 522 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: report accurately that we had this terrible levels of accuracy 523 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: in World War Two. I mean, the degree to which 524 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: these precision bombers weren't very precise is astonishing. But by 525 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: the time we get to the Iraq campaigns, the science 526 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: is caught up with the requirements, and one B two 527 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: today is more effective than an entire wing of B 528 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: seventeens because it can deliver such extraordinarily precise weapons, and 529 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: in that sense it may save lives over the long run. 530 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: But in a way, the clients and the technology finally 531 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: caught up with the dreams of the people in the 532 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and the dreams that do Hayhead and writing 533 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: about the potential of the bomber to save lives by 534 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: ending the kind of war we'd fought in World War One. 535 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm curious why you're taking it. Do you think that 536 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: precision bombing and the genuine sense of truly being precise 537 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: will in fact leverage violence more efficiently and more humanely, 538 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: in that fewer civilians will die of collateral damage? Or 539 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: do you think it'll just extend the capacity of people 540 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: to endure until they're defeated beyond the ability to resist. 541 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that is the million dollar question. I 542 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: think I'm an optimist on this. I think that we're 543 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: better off on balance, that precision allows us. And I 544 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: say that only because when I look at the Second 545 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: World War and I see the extent of civilian losses 546 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: in bombing campaigns is in record respect staggering. I mean, 547 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: probably close to a million Japanese civilians in summer forty five, 548 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: the number of Germans killed in Allied bombing campaigns, particularly 549 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: the British. I did not come away from this book 550 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 2: with a renewed appreciation for British bombing tactics. At the 551 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: end of the book, I talked to this historian at 552 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: the Army War College and she was saying that, you know, 553 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: you have an obligation as a military commander to resort 554 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: to extreme force surviilence only after all other avenues are exhausted, 555 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: only when you have no other choice. What she said 556 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: that what she says I always teach my students, the 557 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: Army officers of tomorrow. She says, you have an obligation 558 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: to work through all of your more ethically acceptable alternatives first. 559 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: So she's not saying it is wrong to do is 560 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: lamated over Japan. What she's saying is it's wrong to 561 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 2: do that without consideration of other options first, and I 562 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: thought that was extremely wise. So what I would say 563 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: is the new era precision bombing that we have today 564 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: allows us to do is to pursue more alternative options 565 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: before we take the big step that I like. 566 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 3: I think the more tools. 567 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: We can give military leadership, the more capable they will 568 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: be of fighting a more acceptable kind of war. I mean, 569 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any such thing as an acceptable war, 570 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: but a more acceptable kind of war. And like I said, 571 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: when I met with Air Force leadership, the thing that 572 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: really struck me was how these people are intellectually serious 573 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: people today. When you have some trigger happy warrior at 574 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 2: the helm of military service is long, long, long, long over. 575 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 2: They are fully aware of what they can and should 576 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: not do. So I found the process of getting involved 577 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 2: in writing this book to be tremendously reassuring about ultiar 578 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: power in twenty first century. 579 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: You no, I want to take you back to a 580 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: passing comment you made that you weren't exactly enthusiastic about 581 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: the Royal Air Forces bomber campaign. I want to ask 582 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: you two sort of technical questions. One, to what extent 583 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: do you think the fact that we had the Norden 584 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: bomb site, so we at least had some hope of 585 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: hitting targets. Changed our attitude towards the campaign where the 586 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: British did not have any device like that, and literally 587 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: they went to bombing whole cities because they couldn't hit anything. 588 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if they're going to go do it, they 589 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: had to go do it almost on a city killing basis, 590 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: because they couldn't guarantee killing a factory. 591 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it made a little bit of a 592 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 2: difference in the use of initial sort of motivations to 593 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 2: to bombing. My real issue with Bomber Harris, the head 594 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 2: of the British Bomber Command, was it's a point that 595 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: Ira Aker, who was the head of the Army Air 596 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: Corps eighth Air Force in Europe, made to Bomber Harris, 597 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 2: which was the theory under which the British area bombing 598 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: was operating was false. The idea that the British had 599 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: was that if I bomb my enemy's civilian population in 600 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: sufficient numbers, their morale will crack and I'll win the war. 601 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 2: That way, nobody will crawl to their homes, they'll super piece. Well, 602 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 2: the Germans tried that very strategy during the blitz, right, 603 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: they bombed the Bejesus out of London on the expectation 604 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 2: that Londoners would panic and the British would give up. 605 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: Is that what happened. No, the exact opposite happened. The 606 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 2: English shrugged it off, went about their business and came 607 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: back stronger than ever. So Bomber Harris has empirical evidence 608 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: in his own backyard of the futility of moral bombing. 609 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: It didn't work on them. So Ira Acre turns to 610 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 2: him at one point and says, you know, why are 611 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 2: you pursuing a strategy against the Germans? It did not 612 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: work against you. And Bomber Haarris's response is, well, the 613 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 2: British a different dude. I'm sorry, that's nonsense. But Bomber 614 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: Harris is. I call him a psychopath in the book, 615 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 2: and I think that is a considered opinion. He's a psychopath. 616 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: If he had looked at the evidence, he would have realized. 617 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 2: And but you know this, The bombing survey done after 618 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: the war by the Air Force confirms in large part 619 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 2: the futility of British morale bombing during the Second World War. 620 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 2: It didn't work, It did not cause German morale to crumble. 621 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 2: We squandered countless lives, countless planes, wasted countless resources in 622 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 2: pursuit of a murderous policy over Germany that had no 623 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: real impact on the outcome of the war. There's some 624 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: really wonderful stuff by some British military strategists after the war, 625 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 2: including Blackett who won the Nobel Prize, physicists who served 626 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: in the War Office who made a calculation about how 627 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 2: much earlier the Second World War would have ended if 628 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: the RAF had not squandered so many resources in these 629 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 2: fruitless bombing campaigns. I found really persuasive. I think the 630 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 2: military leadership in the US Army Air Corps was far 631 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: superior to that of the RAF. Harris doesn't belong on 632 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: the same page as Curtis Lamy, like I said, did 633 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 2: not come away impressed by. 634 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 3: And I'm English, I was born in England. These are 635 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 3: my people. 636 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're not going to hold you to that. 637 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: You're allowed to render independent judgment, whatever your nationality. Let 638 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: me ask you if you don't mind, because you're so 639 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: interesting and so insightful, what do you have coming up next? 640 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: My next book is also going to be an audibook. First, 641 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: I want to do something on policing, and I want 642 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: to do something on the LAPD because I want to 643 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: understand the LAPD was the great, kind of shining example 644 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: of a modern American police department, and they got somethings 645 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 2: very right and something's very wrong, and I want to 646 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: understand that process. And I think it would be really 647 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: instructive because right now, you know, obviously that topic is 648 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 2: in the air. We think we need to do something 649 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 2: to reform the way policing happens in this country. So 650 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: I thought, let's do a kind of case study of 651 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: the most storied of all American police departments and try 652 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: to answer that question. If you make a list of 653 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 2: the ten greatest police chiefs in America in the twentieth century, three. 654 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 3: Of them are. 655 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 2: LAPD police chiefs. These guys were the White Knights of 656 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 2: American policing for seventy five years until Watson, then Rodney 657 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 2: King complicates their heritage. So I'm now doing the same 658 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: thing I did with Barmaffia. I'm sort of digging through 659 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: the archives and trying to bring these men to life. 660 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 2: And they are a fascinating group of men. 661 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with the remarkable achievements in New York City 662 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: where you can almost draw a line in the day 663 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: that Giuliani walks in, the system shifts and we're now 664 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: shifting back to a pre Giuliani model, And they've doubled 665 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: the murder rate on the last year. And it's kind 666 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: of like you're going earlier about systems that don't want 667 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: to learn. We have a culture that says, yeah, that's 668 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: factually true, but irrelevant, Yeah, because it doesn't meet our 669 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: current needs. 670 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 2: You know, the last year is tricky because of COVID, 671 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: and we see a lot of these trends across the country. 672 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 2: It's really hard to tease out what's going on here. 673 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: You know, in my last book Talking to Strangers, I 674 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time talking about policing. I got optimistic, 675 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 2: not pessimistic. There are some really sophisticated currents in criminology 676 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: right now about how to build better police departments and 677 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 2: do more effective policing. But you know this, there's always 678 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 2: a gap between the innovation and its implementation, and I 679 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: think we maybe are just in one of those gaps. 680 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: But we're getting across the board. We have gotten a 681 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 2: lot smarter in how we do this. And also, you know, 682 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: we started this conversation talking about you have a problem 683 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 2: when there's too big of a gap between crises. Right, 684 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: there's not a big gap between crisis. Bill Bratton, probably 685 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 2: the greatest police chief of the last fifty years in 686 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: this country, who did New York and then did LA 687 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: really brought the LAPD back to life. Brad's still around. 688 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: You know, when the Brits had that crime problem a 689 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 2: couple years ago, they tried to hire Bratton, which I 690 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 2: thought was fantastic. So it's like we have the old heads. 691 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 2: You know, you can go and talk to Bill Bratton. 692 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 2: He'll tell you how it's done. So I'm optimistic. You know, 693 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 2: it's been a very very difficult last eighteen months. I 694 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 2: think we can build this back up. 695 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: Oh A huge fan of Bratton, and frankly, I agree 696 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: with you. He's probably the greatest police chief of the 697 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: last half century. 698 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 2: When I look at it, it's very similar to the 699 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 2: dynamic I was describing in the Borer Mafia, which is 700 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 2: you really get an appreciation for how one very effective 701 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: individual can have a hugely disproportionate effect on their worlds. 702 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 2: You know, if you sub out Curtis Leamy, where they 703 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: just a kind of ordinary, average commander. Who knows what 704 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: the last twelve months of the Second World War looked like, 705 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 2: what could have gone into nineteen forty seven, I don't know. 706 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 2: I mean, he had such a profound effect on the 707 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,439 Speaker 2: European bombing campaign. Who knows how much longer that would 708 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 2: have happened. Same thing with Bratton. You sub out Bratton. 709 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right if instead of Bratton taking over the 710 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: NYPD in that crucial period in the nineties, you get 711 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 2: just an ordinary business's usual guy. New York City is 712 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: not just slightly different, it's unrecognizable today, unrecognizable, and you know, 713 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: you look at these things and you say, man, we 714 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 2: get lucky every now and again, which makes me really 715 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 2: nervous because I think it's like WHOA. I was living 716 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 2: in New York when Bratton was there. I was like, man, 717 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 2: did we dodge a bullet? I mean literally dodge a 718 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 2: bullet if we hadn't gotten this guy. Same thing with 719 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 2: le May in the Second World War. 720 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: So well, I want you to know that I hope 721 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: you'll come back with your new book and we'll talk 722 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: about policing. This has been a joy for me. You're 723 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: just great guests, and I love your enthusiasm and your 724 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: energy as well as your knowledge. And I'm going to 725 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: assure you that we're going to promote the Bomber Mafia. 726 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: But I want to thank you for taking the time. 727 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: This has been just a great conversation, wonderful. 728 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on. 729 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. 730 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Malcolm Gladwell. You can find 731 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: a link to his new book, The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, 732 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: A Temptation and the Longest Night of the Second World 733 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: War on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 734 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 735 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Slow, our producer is Rebecca Howe, and 736 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 737 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,439 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 738 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: at Gingish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I 739 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 740 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a you so others 741 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 742 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: newt World can sign up for my three free weekly 743 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: columns at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingrish. 744 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: This is neutrald