Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: You ain't never going to be man enough. Those words
Speaker 2: would haunt me. I would hear their echo in his voice,
Speaker 2: in the squish of hunting waiters stepping into a marsh,
Speaker 2: in the metallic clinking of his wrenches while he fixed
Speaker 2: the grain combine. I would hear those words every morning
Speaker 2: when I walked to the one room schoolhouse and watered
Speaker 2: the ponderous pine. I would hear them when I was
Speaker 2: promoted to CEO, came out of the closet, got married
Speaker 2: and divorced, and graduated twice from Cornell University with a
Speaker 2: master's and doctorate. Knowing my father was not present for
Speaker 2: any of it. Long after he came home from Vietnam
Speaker 2: and started fighting a different war against cancer, I would
Speaker 2: always remember that I ain't never going to be man enough.
Speaker 3: That's Trent Pressler. Trent is the CEO of Bedell Cellars,
Speaker 3: an esteemed vineyard on the North Fork of Long Island.
Speaker 3: He's the author of the debut mel More, Little and Often,
Speaker 3: and Trent is also the builder of bespoke artisanal canoes.
Speaker 3: His canoes have been called the most beautiful in the world.
Speaker 3: This is the story of what one man does in
Speaker 3: order to make meaning of the secrecy and silence surrounding
Speaker 3: his life. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is a special
Speaker 3: bonus episode of Family Secrets with best selling author wellness
Speaker 3: expert Cancer Thriver, who has been living with stage four
Speaker 3: cancer for the past two decades. Chris Carr. Chris has
Speaker 3: been called one of our great thought leaders by Oprah Winfrey,
Speaker 3: and her new book is I'm Not a Morning Person,
Speaker 3: braving loss, grief and the big, messy emotions that happen
Speaker 3: when life calls apart. Chris and I will be talking
Speaker 3: about an episode from season six called Taxi dermid Duck,
Speaker 3: which I hope you'll all try check out if you
Speaker 3: haven't already. As always, I'm so glad you're here, Chris.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for coming on Family Secrets.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Danny, It's good to be here.
Speaker 3: I'm wondering what stood out for you as you were listening.
Speaker 3: Did anything in particular strike.
Speaker 1: You about it? Oh? So many things. I think that
Speaker 1: many of us have parallel experiences, especially with a strange
Speaker 1: parents or parents we might not have been estranged with
Speaker 1: but really did not know in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the big things that shoot
Speaker 1: it out for me, it was the idea that we
Speaker 1: fill the silence when there's silence in our homes, when
Speaker 1: there's silence in our histories, when there's pieces and parts
Speaker 1: that are missing, We clever humans fill that silence, and
Speaker 1: usually we fill it with stories that are not very
Speaker 1: beneficial to our mental well being.
Speaker 3: I think Annie LaMotte once famously said something like my
Speaker 3: head is a neighborhood that I shouldn't spend too much
Speaker 3: time in.
Speaker 1: It's so true. Well, you know, I met my biological father.
Speaker 1: I met him when I was eighteen years old, and
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about him. You know, it was
Speaker 1: something that we had to tiptoe around because I knew
Speaker 1: that my mother had gone through so much pain around
Speaker 1: that abandonment, and I really couldn't experience my own pain
Speaker 1: except for internally, because I didn't want to bring up
Speaker 1: more of her own. And so I remember filling the
Speaker 1: void and filling that silence with all of the reasons
Speaker 1: why he wasn't there. And then, of course I grew
Speaker 1: up with a very wild and interesting grandmother who would
Speaker 1: actually fill the void with stories, and it would be
Speaker 1: like he died in a plane crash, the wedding dresses upstairs,
Speaker 1: you know, like all of these things, and none of
Speaker 1: them were true. So I just realized that later in life,
Speaker 1: when I was a grown up figure it out on
Speaker 1: my own. But again, I think that that's such a
Speaker 1: beautiful point that you tease out in that episode, about
Speaker 1: how we turn inward and sometimes turn on ourselves when
Speaker 1: we don't have all the pieces.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and then that ends up forming so much
Speaker 3: of our lives. There's a piece of wisdom from Carl
Speaker 3: Jung that I love and think about a lot, which is,
Speaker 3: until we make the unconscious conscious, it will direct our lives,
Speaker 3: and we will call it fate. So when your wild
Speaker 3: grandmother would tell you these stories as a kid, did
Speaker 3: you know that they weren't true, or did you try
Speaker 3: to kind of attach yourself to them in some way
Speaker 3: and try them on for size, or did you just
Speaker 3: kind of know that this wasn't it.
Speaker 1: I think in the beginning I did believe her, but
Speaker 1: then I realized there was a lot of other lies.
Speaker 1: And then when you start to follow the bread crowns,
Speaker 1: you're like, just doesn't add up, and I don't have
Speaker 1: to be you know that wise to understand that. So
Speaker 1: for me, it was really about trying to make sense
Speaker 1: of it myself, and that's something that's really hard for
Speaker 1: a child to do without turning it into something that
Speaker 1: is about themselves, like it must be me, there must
Speaker 1: be something wrong with me, flawed with me. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that I love about your episode with
Speaker 1: Trent is you know, he had lots of reasons to
Speaker 1: self abandon especially with a father that essentially abandoned him,
Speaker 1: but he didn't. And I found that to be so
Speaker 1: beautiful and such a testament to his resilience and his
Speaker 1: fortitude just as a person.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, it's extraordinary to me that he grew
Speaker 3: up in such an isolated way on this ranch in
Speaker 3: South Dakota that was thousands of acres and more cows
Speaker 3: than people, and you could drive for hours and hours
Speaker 3: and still be on the land of this ranch. You know,
Speaker 3: with his parents who were complicated people, and with his
Speaker 3: sister who he adored, who became very ill, and who
Speaker 3: he loved and he was a caretaker for and felt
Speaker 3: very responsible for. And all of that is such a
Speaker 3: prescription for not being able to escape or know that
Speaker 3: there is a path that's different from the path that
Speaker 3: he was already on. I mean, he's gay, and he
Speaker 3: knows he's gay, and he's in a culture and in
Speaker 3: a world that is completely rejecting of homosexuality, and a
Speaker 3: church that believes that he's going to burn and help
Speaker 3: for eternity if he's gay. To be able to leave
Speaker 3: that world and go east and go to college and
Speaker 3: carve out a life for himself just struck me as
Speaker 3: such a tremendous act of, as you say, resilience.
Speaker 1: I also loved that, you know, he mentions this word
Speaker 1: and I write about this in my book, and it's
Speaker 1: what I call ruptures. And it was the moment when
Speaker 1: his sister died and he is going to the funeral,
Speaker 1: and you know, he brings a boyfriend, he brings a partner,
Speaker 1: a signific other, and it's really his big reveal. He's
Speaker 1: revealing his secret, and he's doing it in a way
Speaker 1: that's like, this is what I need to survive this storm.
Speaker 1: I need to be who I am and I need
Speaker 1: to be with somebody I love. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's the inciting incident for him, and like for so
Speaker 1: many of us, the ruptures are what set us on
Speaker 1: our path to I think, becoming more ourselves. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that I have explored is that
Speaker 1: ruptures come in all shapes and sizes, and none of
Speaker 1: us are immune to them. And they're hard and they're painful.
Speaker 1: It's the divorce, it's the miscarriage, it's you know, you
Speaker 1: lose your job, you lose your former sense of self,
Speaker 1: the diagnosis, whatever it is, and it doesn't take away
Speaker 1: from the pain what I'm about to say. But all
Speaker 1: of these ruptures also have the power to rearrange us,
Speaker 1: realign our values, our priorities, point us more towards what
Speaker 1: really matters, and maybe even awaken dreams that we have
Speaker 1: long since let die because we think this time is
Speaker 1: behind me. And I think that the ruptures make us
Speaker 1: realize that the time that's in front of us, we
Speaker 1: need to spend it living authentically. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's something that I really loved about his story, because
Speaker 1: it was through that loss that he went on this
Speaker 1: journey of being himself.
Speaker 3: And one of the things about that journey and that
Speaker 3: rupture is that that was a moment for him that
Speaker 3: he really, for his own self preservation and for his
Speaker 3: own growth, needed to really distance himself and separate himself
Speaker 3: from his parents, from his father in particular, because he
Speaker 3: can't be he won't be accepted by him, and that
Speaker 3: lack of being accepted becomes unbearable. I mean, it had
Speaker 3: always been true up until then, but at that point,
Speaker 3: that's what makes it a rupture, is that in the
Speaker 3: grief about the loss of his sister, and you know,
Speaker 3: he describes it so beautifully. You know, the man who
Speaker 3: is his partner he's in a relationship with, is relegated
Speaker 3: to the back row of the church and trend to
Speaker 3: sitting up with family because it's his friend who he's brought.
Speaker 3: His partner is not family. And he turns around as
Speaker 3: the casket is coming in and he sees this man,
Speaker 3: his partner's face in the back row, and something in
Speaker 3: him just rips open and it becomes unacceptable.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: One of the things that you're talking about, and that
Speaker 3: we talk a lot about on this podcast is meaning making.
Speaker 3: It seems like those are moments when they happen, that
Speaker 3: are you know, kind of sink or swim moments. You know,
Speaker 3: are we going to succumb to this feeling of despair
Speaker 3: and grief which is not to say we're not going
Speaker 3: to feel all of our feelings, but are we going
Speaker 3: to succumb or is this actually going to be some
Speaker 3: kind of turning point from which we make meaning out
Speaker 3: of that sorrow, that chaos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question, and I think it's one
Speaker 1: that we all struggle with at some point when we
Speaker 1: were going through loss. And that moment, that rupture for
Speaker 1: me happened with my biological father when his mother died
Speaker 1: and I wasn't allowed to be in contact with any
Speaker 1: member of his family, but his mom, my grandmother, would
Speaker 1: write me, sneak me these little letters over the years
Speaker 1: and a little piece of jewelry and just a little
Speaker 1: trinket or a Christmas ornament. And right around the time
Speaker 1: when I was eighteen, I decided to write her. And
Speaker 1: I had sent her little things as well, but I
Speaker 1: decided to write her, and all I wanted was a
Speaker 1: picture of my father. I just wanted to see if
Speaker 1: we looked like each other. And before she got the letter,
Speaker 1: she died, and so her loss was really the moment
Speaker 1: where I said, I am going to find this person.
Speaker 1: I'm going to find him. I'm going to ask him
Speaker 1: if he'll meet me. And if he won't meet me,
Speaker 1: then he has to have the guts to tell me why.
Speaker 1: And if it wasn't for her passing, I'm not so sure,
Speaker 1: especially at that time in my life, eighteen, filled with
Speaker 1: all the hormones and all of the angst, I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure that I would have done it. But to
Speaker 1: your point about making meaning, you know, the things that
Speaker 1: the secrets that we hide I think hold, or the
Speaker 1: secrets that are you know, a part of our lives,
Speaker 1: have the power to lead us to that meaning, to
Speaker 1: lead us to a better understanding of ourselves and truly
Speaker 1: who we want to be.
Speaker 3: We'll be right back. I was struck reading your book
Speaker 3: at the idea that I just think is a universal
Speaker 3: truth for all of us, that there are lives contain
Speaker 3: multiple ruptures, right, they contain multiple before and after moments,
Speaker 3: And you're describing one of them in your world, and
Speaker 3: you're in your life and in the case of seeking
Speaker 3: out and meeting your biological father, can you imagine a
Speaker 3: parallel world in which you hadn't done that, and that
Speaker 3: just would have continued to remain this question mark that
Speaker 3: sort of walked alongside you, you know, in your life.
Speaker 1: Moving forward now, I've never thought about that. That's a
Speaker 1: great question, Danny. Probably not, because I really long to
Speaker 1: at least have some understanding of the other half of
Speaker 1: my DNA. You know, I just I wanted to know
Speaker 1: certain things. I mean, of course I wanted to know why,
Speaker 1: but more so, I think I wanted to know what
Speaker 1: does he like, what's his humor like, what's his personality like,
Speaker 1: what's he into? Is he tall, he's short, you know,
Speaker 1: is he skinny? What does he look like? And that
Speaker 1: was something that I just really wrestled with for so long.
Speaker 1: Of course, underneath it, I wrestled with the abandonment, but
Speaker 1: on top of it was just, you know, how do
Speaker 1: I look so different from everybody else in my family?
Speaker 1: And not everybody wants to know, but I did want
Speaker 1: to know. And I remember when I met him, he said,
Speaker 1: you know, we'd never seen each other, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: even seen a picture of him. And I just got
Speaker 1: out of the car and he got out of the house,
Speaker 1: and we walked towards each other, and I put out
Speaker 1: my hand and he put out his hand, and I said,
Speaker 1: hi am Kristen, and he said hi, I am Crispin.
Speaker 1: And we were mirror images of each other, and it
Speaker 1: was like, wow, this it was so bright. I could
Speaker 1: barely look at him. I spent most of the time
Speaker 1: looking at the ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really, I really understand that you never thought
Speaker 3: of him and have never thought of him as your dad.
Speaker 3: He was your biological father, he was the person that
Speaker 3: you come from, but the man who raised you and
Speaker 3: who married your mother and who became your dad. So
Speaker 3: much of your book is about the loss of him,
Speaker 3: And you know, I think one of the reasons why
Speaker 3: I chose Trent's episode to talk about with you is that,
Speaker 3: in many ways, your book is about the shape of grief,
Speaker 3: and grief has something that none of us can escape.
Speaker 3: It's part of the human condition. I mean, the subtitle
Speaker 3: of your book is Braving Loss, Grief and the big
Speaker 3: messy emotions that happen when life falls apart, which is
Speaker 3: just kind of everything. I mean, life just feels like
Speaker 3: it's full of big, messy emotions and we're constantly, in
Speaker 3: one way or another, trying to tamp them down or
Speaker 3: find nice, tidy containers for them, and then a profound
Speaker 3: loss comes along, and grief just does not allow for
Speaker 3: any of those tidy containers for our big, messy selves.
Speaker 3: And you know, and I was thinking about in Trent's episode,
Speaker 3: I mean, just the incredible symbolism of his inheritance is
Speaker 3: that his father leaves him his toolbox along with a
Speaker 3: taxidermy duck that there's a story about that. I hope
Speaker 3: people will go back and listen to the episode and
Speaker 3: here why this taxi duck was Trent's inheritance. But his
Speaker 3: father gives him this toolbox, and Trent drives all the
Speaker 3: way from South Dakota back to the east end of
Speaker 3: Long Island where he lives with his dog, Caper and
Speaker 3: this toolbox, and he's in this kind of wild, complicated
Speaker 3: grief because it was a complicated relationship and a really
Speaker 3: difficult one. And when he gets back, it's not like
Speaker 3: a stunt. It's not like something he decides to do
Speaker 3: or something that he read about in a book somewhere.
Speaker 3: He just thinks, what am I going to do with
Speaker 3: this toolbox? And he thinks, I'm going to build a boat?
Speaker 3: And he clears out all of his furniture, every last
Speaker 3: stick of furniture in the home that he's living in,
Speaker 3: so that he can build a canoe using his father's
Speaker 3: toolbox and he'd never built anything before. I mean, he's
Speaker 3: a CEO of a vineyard. This wasn't this wasn't part
Speaker 3: of his skill set. And yet this becomes like the
Speaker 3: shape of his grief. And you write in your book
Speaker 3: about anticipating grief, which is its own thing that I'm
Speaker 3: very interested in because I think I do that. I
Speaker 3: pre grieve things as if you can actually pre grieve them,
Speaker 3: and then somehow spare yourself grief later. All you're doing
Speaker 3: is pre grieving and adding more grief to the grief sandwich.
Speaker 3: But you know, in the case of Trent's loss of
Speaker 3: his father, he hadn't really anticipated it. He hadn't been
Speaker 3: in touch with his family. I hadn't been in touch
Speaker 3: with his father, and it's almost like he doesn't know
Speaker 3: how to grieve or where to put it. So it
Speaker 3: takes on this physical manifestation of this project.
Speaker 1: You know, I called my book I'm not a morning
Speaker 1: person because I didn't want to be. It was the
Speaker 1: one emotion I didn't want to go near. It was
Speaker 1: so big I thought if I touched it, I would drown.
Speaker 1: And that's how I started the process. And then, you know,
Speaker 1: through a lot of my own healing, and therapy and
Speaker 1: certainly an enormous amount of research. As I was writing
Speaker 1: the book, I realized that we live in a grief phobic, messy,
Speaker 1: emotions averse society. So a few of us know how
Speaker 1: to handle storms of that magnitude, and so we oftentimes
Speaker 1: bury the pain in different ways. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: emotional physics. But what doesn't come out one way will
Speaker 1: come out another way. And hopefully we can find ways
Speaker 1: so that the emotion can come out healthy way. And
Speaker 1: I think with all of these big feelings, many of
Speaker 1: us want to amputate them, you know, because they are
Speaker 1: so painful. But we can't amputate any of our emotions
Speaker 1: and hope to be whole. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: whole part of the human experience of saying, all of
Speaker 1: these parts are of me, are welcome in each of
Speaker 1: my emotions, server purpose, and ultimately at the core of them,
Speaker 1: it's just information, and it's information that leads me back
Speaker 1: to myself and a deeper layer of my own healing.
Speaker 1: And for him, what I thought was so wonderful was,
Speaker 1: you know, like I said about emotional physics, what doesn't
Speaker 1: come out one way will come out another way. If
Speaker 1: you come out through drinking, shopping, gambling, you name it,
Speaker 1: all of the things that you can think to put
Speaker 1: on the wound to temporarily numb it. But it also
Speaker 1: can come out in a really healthy way through the
Speaker 1: creative process. And that building of the canoe for me
Speaker 1: is like, I know what it was for me writing
Speaker 1: the book. I imagine you would probably agree with me there
Speaker 1: that the creative process just the act of getting the hammer,
Speaker 1: getting the nails, getting the woods, you know, having the meltdowns,
Speaker 1: being with his dad's tools and trying to build something
Speaker 1: that he had never done before, with the tools that
Speaker 1: still embody the energy of a man that he really
Speaker 1: truly didn't know, but perhaps was getting to know in
Speaker 1: a deeper, more meaningful way in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what the creative process can do for us,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's a very very smart thing
Speaker 1: to turn to when we're grieving and we don't even
Speaker 1: know how to touch that feeling. It's like you can
Speaker 1: faw into the feeling through the creative process. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I love that, And you know, it brings to mind
Speaker 3: one of my favorite lines in Trent's book and in
Speaker 3: his story, which is that a woodworker says to him
Speaker 3: as he's struggling to build this kind of monster of
Speaker 3: a canoe. You know, he smashes it. He has this
Speaker 3: relationship with it. It's like a you know, it's like
Speaker 3: a it's like a golum or something. It's like something
Speaker 3: that he's like, just like it ogre in his in
Speaker 3: his it's taken over his life. And this woodworker says
Speaker 3: to him, don't find the grain, follow it. And that
Speaker 3: strikes me as so much what the what the creative
Speaker 3: process is and what the morning process is. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not something that can be forster that's going to
Speaker 3: kind of adhere to a certain kind of schedule, which
Speaker 3: I think can sometimes make people feel really angry with themselves.
Speaker 3: I mean, it breaks my heart to look at like
Speaker 3: my journals from the year that my dad died when
Speaker 3: I was twenty three, and you know, I have lines
Speaker 3: in there like, you know, it's been six months. I
Speaker 3: should be over it by now, And I just think, oh, honey,
Speaker 3: you're this young woman who's lost your beloved father. It's
Speaker 3: not going to work that way. Give yourself up some rope,
Speaker 3: give yourself a break. But so often we don't, and
Speaker 3: it goes back to what you were saying about our
Speaker 3: being in a sort of grief phobic society. And there's
Speaker 3: a part of your book that I was so happy
Speaker 3: that you included and that I would love for you
Speaker 3: to talk a little bit about, which is the things
Speaker 3: that people say. The things that people say. I mean,
Speaker 3: I found this several years ago when my husband Michael
Speaker 3: was ill with cancer, and the things that people would
Speaker 3: say were just that, they said the damnedest things, and
Speaker 3: they said them with perfectly decent intentions, but they would
Speaker 3: sometimes be so sort of really not what I needed
Speaker 3: to hear. And you have a section of your book
Speaker 3: where you talk about that, and also with yourself as
Speaker 3: someone who has been living with cancer for two decades.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I call this awkward times awkward people. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'll start by saying that we all mess up. And
Speaker 1: if we go back to the idea that we don't
Speaker 1: know what we're doing with the tough stuff, then of course,
Speaker 1: when we don't know what we're doing, what do we do?
Speaker 1: We become anxious, And when we're anxious, we put words
Speaker 1: together that probably should never go together. And so I
Speaker 1: try to come from this place that we're all good intentions.
Speaker 1: We just make mistakes, and so it's the stuff like
Speaker 1: you'll have another baby, you're young, it's only a dog.
Speaker 1: Why are you so sad? Aren't you over it by now?
Speaker 1: It's been a month, six months, a year, ten years, whatever.
Speaker 1: To your point, there is no over, there's through, there's forward.
Speaker 1: It's just like love never doesn't die, love doesn't go away,
Speaker 1: grief doesn't go away. But we live in this very
Speaker 1: black and white society where there's winners and there's losers,
Speaker 1: and it's so hard for us to live in the gray.
Speaker 1: It goes against our grain because we want that hot,
Speaker 1: happy Hollywood ending. We want that bow on top of
Speaker 1: the story. But that's not realistic, and I think it
Speaker 1: does our humanity of grave injustice. How can we learn
Speaker 1: to hold all of it? How can we learn to
Speaker 1: hold the both? And you're successful and unsuccessful. For me,
Speaker 1: I have dozens of tumors in my body. I've been
Speaker 1: living with stage four cancer for twenty years, and I'm healthy.
Speaker 1: And I feel like part of this process of coming
Speaker 1: back to ourselves and meaning coming home to ourselves and
Speaker 1: allowing the parts of ourselves like grief, to exist as well,
Speaker 1: is how we start to live in that gray and
Speaker 1: live really full. Magnificent lives in that place. So it's
Speaker 1: been a very interesting journey for me to go on
Speaker 1: first and foremost, but then to navigate that idea that
Speaker 1: we're going to do it wrong, We're going to get
Speaker 1: it wrong, we're going to say it wrong. But can
Speaker 1: we show up differently time? Right? You can't say anything,
Speaker 1: and it's not your job to fix it. And I
Speaker 1: think that we put a lot of pressure on ourselves
Speaker 1: to fix things for other people. I think the best
Speaker 1: thing that we can do is just listen and be
Speaker 1: fully present and just keep showing up, even saying I
Speaker 1: don't know what to say, but I'm here and I
Speaker 1: love you so true.
Speaker 3: And we all live in the gray, whether or not
Speaker 3: we are admitting to ourselves that we do, We're all
Speaker 3: always in that gray area. Trens in his memoir is
Speaker 3: titled little and Often, which refers to the way that
Speaker 3: ultimately he learned how to build a canoe and actually
Speaker 3: becomes a master builder of the most beautiful canoes in
Speaker 3: the world. Little and Often also seems like the way
Speaker 3: that healing happens. It doesn't happen in a great sweep
Speaker 3: of drama, you know, violins playing and everything being illuminated.
Speaker 3: Healing happens bit by bit, and it's also never done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the part that gets people
Speaker 1: frustrated because it does take that patience. And there's a
Speaker 1: difference between healing and curing, and curing takes place in
Speaker 1: the body and it may or may not happen, but
Speaker 1: healing takes place in the heart. And that's possible for
Speaker 1: all of us, even up into the moment of our death,
Speaker 1: you know, and just being willing to say I'm up
Speaker 1: for this journey and I'm going to give myself the
Speaker 1: space to actually truly walk it. Like you said, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's in the little moments. And I remember this one
Speaker 1: thing that my dad's surgeon said, and he was going
Speaker 1: through a very rough time at this point, and you know,
Speaker 1: we said we'll take it week day at a time,
Speaker 1: and he corrected us, he said, you know what, just
Speaker 1: take it one step at a time. Don't even try
Speaker 1: to go for one full day at a time. And
Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, wouldn't it be great if we all
Speaker 1: just lowered the bar so that we could just take
Speaker 1: one little bite and chew it thoroughly and say that's
Speaker 1: enough for today.
Speaker 3: That's just beautiful and wise, just as you are.
Speaker 1: Chris.
Speaker 3: I want to thank you so much for joining me
Speaker 3: today to talk about real important things.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I always love hearttending with you.
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.