WEBVTT - Bonus: A Conversation with Kris Carr 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.800 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.600 You ain't never going to be man enough. Those words 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.360 would haunt me. I would hear their echo in his voice, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.239 in the squish of hunting waiters stepping into a marsh, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.480 in the metallic clinking of his wrenches while he fixed 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.200 the grain combine. I would hear those words every morning 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.759 when I walked to the one room schoolhouse and watered 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:28.479 the ponderous pine. I would hear them when I was 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.760 promoted to CEO, came out of the closet, got married 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.159 and divorced, and graduated twice from Cornell University with a 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.479 master's and doctorate. Knowing my father was not present for 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.800 any of it. Long after he came home from Vietnam 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.800 and started fighting a different war against cancer, I would 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.880 always remember that I ain't never going to be man enough. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.960 That's Trent Pressler. Trent is the CEO of Bedell Cellars, 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.840 an esteemed vineyard on the North Fork of Long Island. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.560 He's the author of the debut mel More, Little and Often, 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.759 and Trent is also the builder of bespoke artisanal canoes. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.160 His canoes have been called the most beautiful in the world. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.720 This is the story of what one man does in 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.320 order to make meaning of the secrecy and silence surrounding 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:27.000 his life. I'm Danny Shapiro and this is a special 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:31.200 bonus episode of Family Secrets with best selling author wellness 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.880 expert Cancer Thriver, who has been living with stage four 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:39.560 cancer for the past two decades. Chris Carr. Chris has 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.520 been called one of our great thought leaders by Oprah Winfrey, 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.000 and her new book is I'm Not a Morning Person, 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.680 braving loss, grief and the big, messy emotions that happen 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.960 when life calls apart. Chris and I will be talking 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.160 about an episode from season six called Taxi dermid Duck, 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:00.680 which I hope you'll all try check out if you 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:08.320 haven't already. As always, I'm so glad you're here, Chris. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:10.959 Thanks so much for coming on Family Secrets. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.600 Thanks for having me, Danny, It's good to be here. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:18.480 I'm wondering what stood out for you as you were listening. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:20.320 Did anything in particular strike. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.840 You about it? Oh? So many things. I think that 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:29.359 many of us have parallel experiences, especially with a strange 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:33.160 parents or parents we might not have been estranged with 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.200 but really did not know in any way, shape or form. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.080 And you know, one of the big things that shoot 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.080 it out for me, it was the idea that we 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.440 fill the silence when there's silence in our homes, when 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.519 there's silence in our histories, when there's pieces and parts 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:54.240 that are missing, We clever humans fill that silence, and 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:58.640 usually we fill it with stories that are not very 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:00.639 beneficial to our mental well being. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.800 I think Annie LaMotte once famously said something like my 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:05.840 head is a neighborhood that I shouldn't spend too much 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:06.160 time in. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:11.080 It's so true. Well, you know, I met my biological father. 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.240 I met him when I was eighteen years old, and 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.640 I didn't know anything about him. You know, it was 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.240 something that we had to tiptoe around because I knew 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.560 that my mother had gone through so much pain around 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:27.200 that abandonment, and I really couldn't experience my own pain 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.280 except for internally, because I didn't want to bring up 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.560 more of her own. And so I remember filling the 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.560 void and filling that silence with all of the reasons 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.560 why he wasn't there. And then, of course I grew 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:44.800 up with a very wild and interesting grandmother who would 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.200 actually fill the void with stories, and it would be 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.920 like he died in a plane crash, the wedding dresses upstairs, 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.200 you know, like all of these things, and none of 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.840 them were true. So I just realized that later in life, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.760 when I was a grown up figure it out on 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.880 my own. But again, I think that that's such a 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.720 beautiful point that you tease out in that episode, about 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.760 how we turn inward and sometimes turn on ourselves when 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:13.920 we don't have all the pieces. 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.720 Yeah, exactly, and then that ends up forming so much 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.279 of our lives. There's a piece of wisdom from Carl 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.240 Jung that I love and think about a lot, which is, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.000 until we make the unconscious conscious, it will direct our lives, 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.080 and we will call it fate. So when your wild 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.560 grandmother would tell you these stories as a kid, did 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.640 you know that they weren't true, or did you try 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.120 to kind of attach yourself to them in some way 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:41.760 and try them on for size, or did you just 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:43.400 kind of know that this wasn't it. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.279 I think in the beginning I did believe her, but 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.359 then I realized there was a lot of other lies. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.560 And then when you start to follow the bread crowns, 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.800 you're like, just doesn't add up, and I don't have 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.760 to be you know that wise to understand that. So 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.320 for me, it was really about trying to make sense 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.520 of it myself, and that's something that's really hard for 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.320 a child to do without turning it into something that 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.520 is about themselves, like it must be me, there must 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.480 be something wrong with me, flawed with me. And one 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.359 of the things that I love about your episode with 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.400 Trent is you know, he had lots of reasons to 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:24.160 self abandon especially with a father that essentially abandoned him, 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.720 but he didn't. And I found that to be so 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:31.200 beautiful and such a testament to his resilience and his 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:32.720 fortitude just as a person. 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.360 Absolutely, I mean, it's extraordinary to me that he grew 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.640 up in such an isolated way on this ranch in 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:43.240 South Dakota that was thousands of acres and more cows 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.159 than people, and you could drive for hours and hours 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.400 and still be on the land of this ranch. You know, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.960 with his parents who were complicated people, and with his 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.280 sister who he adored, who became very ill, and who 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.920 he loved and he was a caretaker for and felt 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.400 very responsible for. And all of that is such a 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.240 prescription for not being able to escape or know that 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.800 there is a path that's different from the path that 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.240 he was already on. I mean, he's gay, and he 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.320 knows he's gay, and he's in a culture and in 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:23.599 a world that is completely rejecting of homosexuality, and a 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.279 church that believes that he's going to burn and help 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.040 for eternity if he's gay. To be able to leave 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.240 that world and go east and go to college and 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.960 carve out a life for himself just struck me as 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.800 such a tremendous act of, as you say, resilience. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.720 I also loved that, you know, he mentions this word 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.560 and I write about this in my book, and it's 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.240 what I call ruptures. And it was the moment when 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.839 his sister died and he is going to the funeral, 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.520 and you know, he brings a boyfriend, he brings a partner, 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.760 a signific other, and it's really his big reveal. He's 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.000 revealing his secret, and he's doing it in a way 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.280 that's like, this is what I need to survive this storm. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.120 I need to be who I am and I need 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.720 to be with somebody I love. And I think that 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.720 that's the inciting incident for him, and like for so 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.000 many of us, the ruptures are what set us on 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.880 our path to I think, becoming more ourselves. And you know, 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:28.760 one of the things that I have explored is that 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.800 ruptures come in all shapes and sizes, and none of 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.600 us are immune to them. And they're hard and they're painful. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.560 It's the divorce, it's the miscarriage, it's you know, you 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:40.960 lose your job, you lose your former sense of self, 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.920 the diagnosis, whatever it is, and it doesn't take away 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.720 from the pain what I'm about to say. But all 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.880 of these ruptures also have the power to rearrange us, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.960 realign our values, our priorities, point us more towards what 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.920 really matters, and maybe even awaken dreams that we have 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.440 long since let die because we think this time is 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.360 behind me. And I think that the ruptures make us 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.600 realize that the time that's in front of us, we 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.520 need to spend it living authentically. And I think that 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.400 that's something that I really loved about his story, because 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.680 it was through that loss that he went on this 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.760 journey of being himself. 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.360 And one of the things about that journey and that 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:35.200 rupture is that that was a moment for him that 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.720 he really, for his own self preservation and for his 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:45.439 own growth, needed to really distance himself and separate himself 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.960 from his parents, from his father in particular, because he 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.440 can't be he won't be accepted by him, and that 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:59.160 lack of being accepted becomes unbearable. I mean, it had 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.400 always been true up until then, but at that point, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:04.200 that's what makes it a rupture, is that in the 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.200 grief about the loss of his sister, and you know, 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.000 he describes it so beautifully. You know, the man who 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.840 is his partner he's in a relationship with, is relegated 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.880 to the back row of the church and trend to 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.679 sitting up with family because it's his friend who he's brought. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.560 His partner is not family. And he turns around as 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.480 the casket is coming in and he sees this man, 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.800 his partner's face in the back row, and something in 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:35.720 him just rips open and it becomes unacceptable. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:36.400 You know. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.040 One of the things that you're talking about, and that 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.160 we talk a lot about on this podcast is meaning making. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.800 It seems like those are moments when they happen, that 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.840 are you know, kind of sink or swim moments. You know, 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.760 are we going to succumb to this feeling of despair 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.600 and grief which is not to say we're not going 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.960 to feel all of our feelings, but are we going 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.120 to succumb or is this actually going to be some 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.800 kind of turning point from which we make meaning out 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.760 of that sorrow, that chaos. 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.920 Yeah, it's a good question, and I think it's one 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.320 that we all struggle with at some point when we 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.880 were going through loss. And that moment, that rupture for 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.280 me happened with my biological father when his mother died 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.280 and I wasn't allowed to be in contact with any 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:37.040 member of his family, but his mom, my grandmother, would 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.720 write me, sneak me these little letters over the years 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.839 and a little piece of jewelry and just a little 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.439 trinket or a Christmas ornament. And right around the time 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.400 when I was eighteen, I decided to write her. And 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:52.720 I had sent her little things as well, but I 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:54.920 decided to write her, and all I wanted was a 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.000 picture of my father. I just wanted to see if 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:02.760 we looked like each other. And before she got the letter, 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:07.680 she died, and so her loss was really the moment 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.920 where I said, I am going to find this person. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.440 I'm going to find him. I'm going to ask him 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.000 if he'll meet me. And if he won't meet me, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.560 then he has to have the guts to tell me why. 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.559 And if it wasn't for her passing, I'm not so sure, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.880 especially at that time in my life, eighteen, filled with 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.920 all the hormones and all of the angst, I'm not 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.400 so sure that I would have done it. But to 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.880 your point about making meaning, you know, the things that 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.000 the secrets that we hide I think hold, or the 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.040 secrets that are you know, a part of our lives, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.840 have the power to lead us to that meaning, to 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.720 lead us to a better understanding of ourselves and truly 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:50.600 who we want to be. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:12:01.800 We'll be right back. I was struck reading your book 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.680 at the idea that I just think is a universal 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.680 truth for all of us, that there are lives contain 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:15.480 multiple ruptures, right, they contain multiple before and after moments, 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.160 And you're describing one of them in your world, and 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.720 you're in your life and in the case of seeking 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.800 out and meeting your biological father, can you imagine a 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.960 parallel world in which you hadn't done that, and that 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.240 just would have continued to remain this question mark that 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.480 sort of walked alongside you, you know, in your life. 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.040 Moving forward now, I've never thought about that. That's a 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.840 great question, Danny. Probably not, because I really long to 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:46.120 at least have some understanding of the other half of 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.480 my DNA. You know, I just I wanted to know 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.240 certain things. I mean, of course I wanted to know why, 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.960 but more so, I think I wanted to know what 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.280 does he like, what's his humor like, what's his personality like, 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.320 what's he into? Is he tall, he's short, you know, 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.319 is he skinny? What does he look like? And that 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.480 was something that I just really wrestled with for so long. 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.040 Of course, underneath it, I wrestled with the abandonment, but 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.360 on top of it was just, you know, how do 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.880 I look so different from everybody else in my family? 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.559 And not everybody wants to know, but I did want 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.079 to know. And I remember when I met him, he said, 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.199 you know, we'd never seen each other, and I hadn't 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:27.840 even seen a picture of him. And I just got 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.240 out of the car and he got out of the house, 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.839 and we walked towards each other, and I put out 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.319 my hand and he put out his hand, and I said, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.760 hi am Kristen, and he said hi, I am Crispin. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.400 And we were mirror images of each other, and it 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.840 was like, wow, this it was so bright. I could 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.160 barely look at him. I spent most of the time 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:49.080 looking at the ground. 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:54.439 Yeah, I really, I really understand that you never thought 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.280 of him and have never thought of him as your dad. 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.160 He was your biological father, he was the person that 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.840 you come from, but the man who raised you and 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:10.720 who married your mother and who became your dad. So 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:15.080 much of your book is about the loss of him, 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.960 And you know, I think one of the reasons why 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.640 I chose Trent's episode to talk about with you is that, 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.080 in many ways, your book is about the shape of grief, 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.440 and grief has something that none of us can escape. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.720 It's part of the human condition. I mean, the subtitle 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.000 of your book is Braving Loss, Grief and the big 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.240 messy emotions that happen when life falls apart, which is 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.040 just kind of everything. I mean, life just feels like 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.640 it's full of big, messy emotions and we're constantly, in 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.400 one way or another, trying to tamp them down or 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.840 find nice, tidy containers for them, and then a profound 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.240 loss comes along, and grief just does not allow for 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.640 any of those tidy containers for our big, messy selves. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.800 And you know, and I was thinking about in Trent's episode, 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:14.640 I mean, just the incredible symbolism of his inheritance is 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.080 that his father leaves him his toolbox along with a 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.600 taxidermy duck that there's a story about that. I hope 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.680 people will go back and listen to the episode and 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.600 here why this taxi duck was Trent's inheritance. But his 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.480 father gives him this toolbox, and Trent drives all the 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.360 way from South Dakota back to the east end of 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:42.280 Long Island where he lives with his dog, Caper and 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:47.160 this toolbox, and he's in this kind of wild, complicated 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.080 grief because it was a complicated relationship and a really 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:55.200 difficult one. And when he gets back, it's not like 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.360 a stunt. It's not like something he decides to do 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.240 or something that he read about in a book somewhere. 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.280 He just thinks, what am I going to do with 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.760 this toolbox? And he thinks, I'm going to build a boat? 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.080 And he clears out all of his furniture, every last 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.920 stick of furniture in the home that he's living in, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.360 so that he can build a canoe using his father's 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:24.000 toolbox and he'd never built anything before. I mean, he's 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.760 a CEO of a vineyard. This wasn't this wasn't part 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.680 of his skill set. And yet this becomes like the 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.240 shape of his grief. And you write in your book 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.680 about anticipating grief, which is its own thing that I'm 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.880 very interested in because I think I do that. I 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.000 pre grieve things as if you can actually pre grieve them, 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.840 and then somehow spare yourself grief later. All you're doing 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.640 is pre grieving and adding more grief to the grief sandwich. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.320 But you know, in the case of Trent's loss of 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.360 his father, he hadn't really anticipated it. He hadn't been 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.040 in touch with his family. I hadn't been in touch 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.919 with his father, and it's almost like he doesn't know 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.439 how to grieve or where to put it. So it 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.040 takes on this physical manifestation of this project. 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:13.879 You know, I called my book I'm not a morning 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.080 person because I didn't want to be. It was the 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.280 one emotion I didn't want to go near. It was 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.160 so big I thought if I touched it, I would drown. 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.320 And that's how I started the process. And then, you know, 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.600 through a lot of my own healing, and therapy and 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.480 certainly an enormous amount of research. As I was writing 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.240 the book, I realized that we live in a grief phobic, messy, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:41.480 emotions averse society. So a few of us know how 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.760 to handle storms of that magnitude, and so we oftentimes 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.960 bury the pain in different ways. You know. It's like 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.240 emotional physics. But what doesn't come out one way will 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:58.320 come out another way. And hopefully we can find ways 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:02.119 so that the emotion can come out healthy way. And 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.480 I think with all of these big feelings, many of 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.400 us want to amputate them, you know, because they are 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.200 so painful. But we can't amputate any of our emotions 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.439 and hope to be whole. And I think that's the 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.399 whole part of the human experience of saying, all of 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.600 these parts are of me, are welcome in each of 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.280 my emotions, server purpose, and ultimately at the core of them, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:29.080 it's just information, and it's information that leads me back 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.679 to myself and a deeper layer of my own healing. 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.439 And for him, what I thought was so wonderful was, 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.760 you know, like I said about emotional physics, what doesn't 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.479 come out one way will come out another way. If 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:46.080 you come out through drinking, shopping, gambling, you name it, 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.800 all of the things that you can think to put 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.119 on the wound to temporarily numb it. But it also 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.960 can come out in a really healthy way through the 0:18:55.000 --> 0:19:00.120 creative process. And that building of the canoe for me 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.399 is like, I know what it was for me writing 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:07.040 the book. I imagine you would probably agree with me there 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:12.320 that the creative process just the act of getting the hammer, 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.520 getting the nails, getting the woods, you know, having the meltdowns, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.399 being with his dad's tools and trying to build something 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.760 that he had never done before, with the tools that 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.520 still embody the energy of a man that he really 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.479 truly didn't know, but perhaps was getting to know in 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:34.840 a deeper, more meaningful way in some way, shape or form. 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.080 I mean, that's what the creative process can do for us, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.680 and I feel like it's a very very smart thing 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.040 to turn to when we're grieving and we don't even 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.120 know how to touch that feeling. It's like you can 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.520 faw into the feeling through the creative process. Yeah. 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.960 I love that, And you know, it brings to mind 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.040 one of my favorite lines in Trent's book and in 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.880 his story, which is that a woodworker says to him 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.960 as he's struggling to build this kind of monster of 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.560 a canoe. You know, he smashes it. He has this 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.280 relationship with it. It's like a you know, it's like 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.600 a it's like a golum or something. It's like something 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.560 that he's like, just like it ogre in his in 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.160 his it's taken over his life. And this woodworker says 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:25.000 to him, don't find the grain, follow it. And that 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.480 strikes me as so much what the what the creative 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.879 process is and what the morning process is. You know, 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.920 it's not something that can be forster that's going to 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.760 kind of adhere to a certain kind of schedule, which 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.879 I think can sometimes make people feel really angry with themselves. 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.679 I mean, it breaks my heart to look at like 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.640 my journals from the year that my dad died when 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.119 I was twenty three, and you know, I have lines 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.480 in there like, you know, it's been six months. I 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.439 should be over it by now, And I just think, oh, honey, 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:01.080 you're this young woman who's lost your beloved father. It's 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.040 not going to work that way. Give yourself up some rope, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.680 give yourself a break. But so often we don't, and 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:07.840 it goes back to what you were saying about our 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:13.040 being in a sort of grief phobic society. And there's 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:14.639 a part of your book that I was so happy 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:16.520 that you included and that I would love for you 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.600 to talk a little bit about, which is the things 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.600 that people say. The things that people say. I mean, 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.920 I found this several years ago when my husband Michael 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.160 was ill with cancer, and the things that people would 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.800 say were just that, they said the damnedest things, and 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:38.520 they said them with perfectly decent intentions, but they would 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.879 sometimes be so sort of really not what I needed 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.520 to hear. And you have a section of your book 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.560 where you talk about that, and also with yourself as 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.400 someone who has been living with cancer for two decades. 0:21:55.160 --> 0:22:00.800 Yeah, I call this awkward times awkward people. And you know, 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.760 I'll start by saying that we all mess up. And 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:06.000 if we go back to the idea that we don't 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.919 know what we're doing with the tough stuff, then of course, 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.800 when we don't know what we're doing, what do we do? 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.639 We become anxious, And when we're anxious, we put words 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.960 together that probably should never go together. And so I 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.639 try to come from this place that we're all good intentions. 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.639 We just make mistakes, and so it's the stuff like 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.760 you'll have another baby, you're young, it's only a dog. 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.720 Why are you so sad? Aren't you over it by now? 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.399 It's been a month, six months, a year, ten years, whatever. 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.800 To your point, there is no over, there's through, there's forward. 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.200 It's just like love never doesn't die, love doesn't go away, 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:46.560 grief doesn't go away. But we live in this very 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.920 black and white society where there's winners and there's losers, 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.160 and it's so hard for us to live in the gray. 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.080 It goes against our grain because we want that hot, 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.960 happy Hollywood ending. We want that bow on top of 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.280 the story. But that's not realistic, and I think it 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:08.800 does our humanity of grave injustice. How can we learn 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.800 to hold all of it? How can we learn to 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.720 hold the both? And you're successful and unsuccessful. For me, 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.840 I have dozens of tumors in my body. I've been 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.640 living with stage four cancer for twenty years, and I'm healthy. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:30.080 And I feel like part of this process of coming 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.240 back to ourselves and meaning coming home to ourselves and 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:37.160