Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know, are
Speaker 1: you a Charlotte. You guys, it's an exciting day, and
Speaker 1: are you a Charlotte because Cindy Schubreck is here. We
Speaker 1: have been waiting so excited for you to come. Cindy
Speaker 1: came to be on the show as a writer originally
Speaker 1: she's gonna tell us all about it in nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: many years ago. And you and Jenny then in my mind,
Speaker 1: became like this super powerhouse pair who really like took
Speaker 1: the reins of the female voice. You know. People would
Speaker 1: sometimes complain thinking we only had male writers because Darren
Speaker 1: was so outfront and then Michael Patrick, but really we
Speaker 1: always had you guys in my mind, you know, and
Speaker 1: you really had such a really incredible input in terms
Speaker 1: of like your own stories, and you know, like for Charlotte,
Speaker 1: some of them were just like so important from both
Speaker 1: you and Jenny, and like for me when I think
Speaker 1: at the show that really, you know, it was the
Speaker 1: heart and the soul and the foundation of like where
Speaker 1: our characters got to go and deepen into. So we're super.
Speaker 2: Excited to hear yes. I mean it's funny because Michael
Speaker 2: to me and Michael could write anybody and anything, of course,
Speaker 2: and I know you mean that, but yeah, Jenny was
Speaker 2: actually a friend I had made before I came aboard
Speaker 2: this show. I know this, and I was working on
Speaker 2: every Boy Loves Raymond.
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't remember this theater.
Speaker 2: This is a big thing because it was sort of
Speaker 2: like I had an affair with Sex and the City
Speaker 2: because I had been working with a writing partner for
Speaker 2: like seven years, and on the side, I used to
Speaker 2: write these columns like once a year, this thing about
Speaker 2: dating for a glamor, and then I could never use
Speaker 2: as a samples because when you're working with a partner,
Speaker 2: you have to do things you did together, right, And
Speaker 2: I was working she had kids already, so we had
Speaker 2: been on all sorts of shows that weren't at all
Speaker 2: about what I was living interesting, and we were finally
Speaker 2: at a point where we were going to separate, and
Speaker 2: wroteenthal who ran every Bay Loves Raymond, let us each
Speaker 2: write an episode. So I had my own episode of
Speaker 2: Everybody Loves Raymond, and then I was going to write
Speaker 2: a spec and Sex and the City had just started.
Speaker 2: It was in season one, and I knew Jenny was
Speaker 2: working on it, and I told her I was gonna
Speaker 2: write a spect and she's like, you should come in freelance,
Speaker 2: Like you should come in and pitch. So that's what
Speaker 2: Phil let me do. From everybody loves Raymond. I love Phil,
Speaker 2: I mean me too. I don't think he I mean
Speaker 2: I think he regrets it, maybe still, but which I
Speaker 2: will want you.
Speaker 1: Phil, I appreciate that. We all really appreciate that you
Speaker 1: cheese everybody.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: He's a good guy.
Speaker 2: He's and these are great writers. Like that was a
Speaker 2: great we were finally I was finally on a good
Speaker 2: show that was going to last on Raymond. So my dad,
Speaker 2: who was an accountant, was like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: But I from the minute I pitched to Michael and
Speaker 2: Darren and Jenny encouraged me, which was so nice of
Speaker 2: her to share that. Like so it was it was
Speaker 2: like I was so excited to pitch because everything I
Speaker 2: had written in a little journal of things I wanted
Speaker 2: to write about our essays or a movie I might
Speaker 2: want to write everything could work on that show. Because
Speaker 2: I was the same age as you guys at that time.
Speaker 2: It just felt like everything I talked to my friends
Speaker 2: about and everything I wondered about and in fact, I
Speaker 2: was at Everybody Loves This is such a long answer, so.
Speaker 1: It was good a long answer.
Speaker 2: I was at Everybody Loves Raymond and one of the
Speaker 2: guys brought in a VCR. I remember that of Sex
Speaker 2: and the City, and he's like, my wife loves this show.
Speaker 2: I don't get it. It was at lunch it played. It
Speaker 2: was the baby Shower episode, and I hadn't seen it,
Speaker 2: and I remember all the boys slowly trickled out. It
Speaker 2: was mostly met on the show, of course, and at Raymond,
Speaker 2: and they all trickled out and went to lunch, and
Speaker 2: I was sitting there and I was like crying by
Speaker 2: the end of it. I couldn't believe how much it
Speaker 2: spoke to about what I bought about, and like how
Speaker 2: deep it was to me, and like the idea of
Speaker 2: our you gonn advocate And then remember she had taken
Speaker 2: your baby. Remember there was like such big laughs, but
Speaker 2: there were also just to me, these really deep, meaningful conversations.
Speaker 2: Absolutely I hadn't heard, and so I was like enamored
Speaker 2: of the show. And so I went and pitched and
Speaker 2: Mike clinn. So that's when I did the episode of
Speaker 2: the Chicken dance as a freelancer, so I did not.
Speaker 1: Realize you were a free lancer and you did like
Speaker 1: a absolutely iconic episode. I mean, Cynthia and I just
Speaker 1: talked about it last week and Cynthia said, because they
Speaker 1: were asking me, where are you in the in the
Speaker 1: rewatching and I told them and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: Cindy couldn't come on for Chicken Dance, which is coming
Speaker 1: on for the next one. And Cindy said, oh, I
Speaker 1: recommend Chicken Dance to anyone who hasn't seen the show
Speaker 1: or young people who want to see it for the
Speaker 1: first time, because it's not particularly dirty, right, but it's
Speaker 1: the gist of the four women characters.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, And that was I thought that.
Speaker 1: Was so smart because all I remembered about the Chicken
Speaker 1: Dance was the difficult storyline that I have, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, the groomsman's father groping me on the dance floor.
Speaker 2: So you like it, and you had an entire relationship
Speaker 2: during the wedding with what.
Speaker 1: Also so bizarre start exactly. That's the which so much
Speaker 1: fun about rewatching. There's so many great things. One is
Speaker 1: that there are things I remember really vividly, and then
Speaker 1: there's things where there's just nothing right, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I never know what I'm going to do, Like like
Speaker 1: in the one that Jenny had written, the threesomeone where
Speaker 1: I'm having a dream and it looks like I'm about
Speaker 1: to have a threesome.
Speaker 2: I was I'm gonna have a cent.
Speaker 1: I remember that. Oh my god, how great of Charlotte,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But no, no, no, it's
Speaker 1: just a dream. I didn't have a three cent, but
Speaker 1: I literally don't know. And also in the in the
Speaker 1: Chicken Dance, I don't remember going up to the room
Speaker 1: that I'm preparing for the bread and Room and having
Speaker 1: sex there with that dude very at all, which obviously
Speaker 1: I didn't really have something. But you know, I'm saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty suppersive for Charlotte, and she does a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: But then we come down and he tells me that
Speaker 1: I look like a whore in my beautiful dress, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, but I think, and it's a good
Speaker 1: example because I think what you do so brilliantly, and
Speaker 1: really all of our writers, but when you came you
Speaker 1: could get the embarrassment, the kind of going out on
Speaker 1: a limb emotionally with the humor, with the depth, all
Speaker 1: of those things, and that's the specialness of the show,
Speaker 1: I think, and the writing is the reason for it well.
Speaker 2: And then that you guys could carry off anything that
Speaker 2: was so fun.
Speaker 1: It was like, but you guys, you know, you don't
Speaker 1: really have writing like that very often when it's really
Speaker 1: asking you to fire on all cylinders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, That's what I feel like I remember
Speaker 2: about the show is just everybody was firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 2: And I feel like I knew it at the time.
Speaker 2: I mean, part way in, I was thinking, this is
Speaker 2: going to be the best job I ever have. And
Speaker 2: that's either sad or just like amazing that I'm here
Speaker 2: right now. But I felt like the actors of costume,
Speaker 2: the directors, we were getting and you know, from the
Speaker 2: moment of like nobody's heard of the show and somebody
Speaker 2: brought it in on a tape to like I think
Speaker 2: when I joined you guys, that was the first year
Speaker 2: at the Golden Globes and we were like jumping out
Speaker 2: in the kitchen and suddenly people were watching. And then
Speaker 2: we'd walk around New York and you'd hear people talking
Speaker 2: about it. Yeah, So not only did I love what
Speaker 2: we were doing and who I was working with, but
Speaker 2: people work. It was in the zeitgeist very yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I felt like this is everybody lightning in a bottle.
Speaker 1: Amazing, yes, absolutely, and smart that you knew it. I
Speaker 1: mean I don't know that I really knew it until
Speaker 1: I feel like I knew it third season.
Speaker 2: But maybe I probably didn't know it right away, right.
Speaker 2: I just was happy to be there.
Speaker 1: Joy of the actual experience is what was you know,
Speaker 1: so amazing because you don't always have that, right. You
Speaker 1: could be on an amazing show. Everybody loves Raymond's an
Speaker 1: amazing show, but like you said, it wasn't necessarily what
Speaker 1: you were thinking about in life, right, And that was
Speaker 1: true for me also obviously with Sex and City, I'm
Speaker 1: a single, thirty five year old whatever, thirty foot why,
Speaker 1: I don't know how old we were something thirty something, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know the things that you are already thinking
Speaker 1: of and talking about and or curious about or whatever
Speaker 1: is their story. It's crazy, right, like, so unusual and
Speaker 1: obviously hadn't happened then, and I don't know really has
Speaker 1: happened again, because I think we had kind of a
Speaker 1: unique situation in terms of HBO allowing us, you know,
Speaker 1: to do whatever we want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think so much there's very little that's
Speaker 2: not said anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, this is true.
Speaker 2: When we were hot, right, there were still things to
Speaker 2: be said that people hadn't said aloud. And now I
Speaker 2: feel like very true, maybe even artly because of us.
Speaker 2: Not to take credit for that, but I feel like
Speaker 2: my friends who didn't used to talk about some of
Speaker 2: those things that we talked about then would and men
Speaker 2: would too. And so now everybody writes their own every
Speaker 2: you know, everybody says everything absolutely right.
Speaker 1: So tell us back. So you wrote the chicken nance
Speaker 1: on spec. So for anyone listening who doesn't really know
Speaker 1: what that means, tell us exactly what inspect means.
Speaker 2: As a freelancer. So I came in and pitched, and
Speaker 2: they listened to a few ideas. They liked that idea.
Speaker 2: That was really what was happening in my life right then.
Speaker 2: I had bought this house on my own, and somebody
Speaker 2: everybody said like, as soon as you buy a place,
Speaker 2: someone will propose. And then I had people hostitting and
Speaker 2: they got engaged in my house and it's supposed to
Speaker 2: be to me, and they had me write a poem
Speaker 2: for their wedding, so everything oh the time.
Speaker 1: For example, you don't.
Speaker 3: Know he got them.
Speaker 1: That's why you were right reading.
Speaker 2: He didn't happen leave, but he had given me the
Speaker 2: pink toothbrush head, which was like big to me.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: But then it's like they met, got engaged, were getting
Speaker 2: married and he's just my date and as as far
Speaker 2: as I got is like the pink toothbrushead. And so
Speaker 2: I did start crying during the poem the poem, yeah,
Speaker 2: and I did kind of play it off as like
Speaker 2: I was overcome by emotion, but really also.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. The other thing that I love about
Speaker 1: having a podcast and getting to discuss things like this
Speaker 1: is that, you know, there was always this kind of
Speaker 1: vague thought that the stories in the show were our actors' stories,
Speaker 1: and we would always try to tell someone no, no, no,
Speaker 1: they're not our stories because that'd be weird. They're you know,
Speaker 1: ore writer stories, and they have an agreement that everything
Speaker 1: is going to be either their story or once removed,
Speaker 1: people know someone who's actually going through it, but to
Speaker 1: hear you how close it was to your life.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't always that a to B like right,
Speaker 2: but we definitely yeah, but that one when I pitched it,
Speaker 2: they loved that idea. So I got to write that one,
Speaker 2: and then I got to come to New York and
Speaker 2: be at the table read, which to me because I
Speaker 2: had only seen you guys on television and even though
Speaker 2: I worked in TV, I worked in you know, like
Speaker 2: in front of an audience in four camera sitcoms ol sessions.
Speaker 2: It comes right, and this was like, you know, you guys,
Speaker 2: I think it was at ABC carpet during lunch when
Speaker 2: you were filming something at Equinox or something already. It
Speaker 2: felt really cool to me, but I was really intimidated.
Speaker 2: And I also was intimidated because the script you were
Speaker 2: reading like had come off my printer, like nobody changed
Speaker 2: very much. Like I definitely got input when I was
Speaker 2: breaking the story and all, but it was kind of
Speaker 2: like getting your bluff called because writers always complain, you know, right,
Speaker 2: so much got changed, but I was like, why did
Speaker 2: no one all help me out?
Speaker 1: This is bad?
Speaker 2: This is just bad for me, Oh my.
Speaker 1: God, But it was so good, That's why no one changed.
Speaker 2: And it was quiet because you guys were like grown
Speaker 2: ups and you'd have to laugh. So the so the
Speaker 2: network knew it was funny, like we did on his sitcom, right,
Speaker 2: so it's really quiet the whole time, the whole difference.
Speaker 2: Maybe everyone was very nice afterwards. And then after that
Speaker 2: I asked my agent, like, do you think I could
Speaker 2: go on there? And so he like asked, and I
Speaker 2: got to go there. And then I think maybe they
Speaker 2: regretted letting me do it from everybody else, right, But
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm already in love with this whole process.
Speaker 1: So then you left.
Speaker 2: Everybody loves women always between seasons, so I just didn't reap,
Speaker 2: but I think got it. Everybody thought it would because
Speaker 2: it was finally a successful show and it was really
Speaker 2: fun to write, and I wrote about my family, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't like writing Sex and the City.
Speaker 1: Of course, nothing is nothing was obviously for sure, And
Speaker 1: we're just so thankful that you came to us.
Speaker 2: My god, I am.
Speaker 1: I did have a very weird conversation though, which kind
Speaker 1: of now has some interesting backstory to it. One time
Speaker 1: with Ray Ramono on television where he told me that
Speaker 1: women weren't funny. Oh yeah, and I say interest, but
Speaker 1: we were on television, so I couldn't.
Speaker 2: Were you what was that?
Speaker 1: Some kind of a was it Bill Maher used to
Speaker 1: have a show that had more than one personal Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe that show. So it was like a guy based show.
Speaker 1: And I think that was the only woman sitting there,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? And I was kind
Speaker 1: of like, and I think we knew you'd come from
Speaker 1: there on some level at least I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: is this guy?
Speaker 2: So I feel like, okay, maybe he was overstating hopefully,
Speaker 2: and I just did a thing that was like a
Speaker 2: reunion of the Raymond writers. But I do remember like
Speaker 2: I said something funny, and I remember them kind of
Speaker 2: still looking surprised that I said all these years.
Speaker 1: And you feel like that's a real thing in commedy.
Speaker 2: Like happily, not surprised, like how could you, but just
Speaker 2: surprise I said something.
Speaker 1: I remember thinking that, like it's a holdover from like
Speaker 1: you know, it's a sexist kind of a holdover that
Speaker 1: we still need to get totally rid of, right, And
Speaker 1: that was kind of the joy of our show is
Speaker 1: that there were four of us and all of you
Speaker 1: guys started writing and writing your own series or women writers,
Speaker 1: and yes there was Darren and Michael Patrick of course,
Speaker 1: but then like we got more and more, and we're gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously as we go on, we'll get everyone on,
Speaker 1: hopefully because that would be really really fun. But you know,
Speaker 1: just to be able to succeed without it being a
Speaker 1: traditional sitcom, right, So I think women obviously had already
Speaker 1: done great over there in regular sitcom land, right to
Speaker 1: have it be kind of like a little almost like
Speaker 1: an indie film, almost like a sitcom, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: like we it was very.
Speaker 2: Different at the time, very different like whenever I pitched
Speaker 2: a sort of a woman centric show, it was always like, okay,
Speaker 2: but they they're dating, but what's their job or whatever.
Speaker 2: It was never I could just see about friendship and
Speaker 2: dating really in life, and in the right that was right.
Speaker 2: So it was really fun. And also, yeah, it did
Speaker 2: look very filmic. I remember people were really addicted kind
Speaker 2: of to a laugh track. So there was a lot
Speaker 2: of fear about like what single camera was, and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of hybrid will be kind of single
Speaker 2: camera but some kind of on right. But Second City
Speaker 2: did such a good job of making it film and
Speaker 2: I think using music, and it didn't feel quiet and
Speaker 2: it was like.
Speaker 1: Not at all, yeah, not at all. But also to
Speaker 1: me even when I look back, because it is I
Speaker 1: am so able to be more objective now than you know,
Speaker 1: because I only would ever watch it right when before
Speaker 1: it came out on HBO. They would give us the
Speaker 1: vhs and we take them home and watch them, and
Speaker 1: sometimes there's still be like placeholders or whatever. It wouldn't
Speaker 1: be totally finished right, and then I would probably not
Speaker 1: ever see it again, you know. So I'm rewatching and
Speaker 1: so amazed by so many things and so many things.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it is so good and I don't know
Speaker 1: that I was able to feel that at the time,
Speaker 1: like to really think in I knew it was special
Speaker 1: and different, and I knew that our vibe when we
Speaker 1: were doing it had that like faculty energy of something special,
Speaker 1: you know. But then to see it now from all
Speaker 1: these many years later, and see how the writing holds up,
Speaker 1: how on point you guys are about so many things,
Speaker 1: like the I think this is so this is our
Speaker 1: episode that we're discussing today is Evolution, which you wrote
Speaker 1: and Pam Thomas directs, who was great director, and I
Speaker 1: don't know why we never had her back maybe you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, so great And it's got the incredible
Speaker 1: Dan Futterman in it, which we're going to talk to
Speaker 1: next week, which will be really fun. But the thing
Speaker 1: that I'm wondering about, because I just watched this is
Speaker 1: when we have the incredible episode where Brandon talks about
Speaker 1: freezing her eggs.
Speaker 2: Yes, I watched it last night too, right, the guy
Speaker 2: with the hair.
Speaker 1: Plus right, it's so good. But also that shot where
Speaker 1: they're in the freezer and she and Gary says, right now,
Speaker 1: there were no eggs in her freezer.
Speaker 2: Thomas did that great, like from shot and also from
Speaker 2: behind the medicine cabinet medicine so good.
Speaker 1: I mean, she was so visual, Pam Thomas was so visual.
Speaker 1: But like, that's how new egg freezing was that. First
Speaker 1: of all, this jerk on this date with her is
Speaker 1: gonna you know, criticize the idea of you know, science, right,
Speaker 1: you know, creating babies or whatever. Oh my god. And
Speaker 1: then obviously he's just had hair blood, so she's just
Speaker 1: like wait, you know, which is so well written and
Speaker 1: so great. But also the fact that then she goes
Speaker 1: into her freezer and there's vodka in there, and carry goes,
Speaker 1: you know, for now there's no It's so funny funny.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I remember at the time eyeing
Speaker 1: everyone was like, wait, what.
Speaker 2: Do you mean? What how does I remember? Like and
Speaker 2: should I do that?
Speaker 3: That?
Speaker 2: Smart?
Speaker 1: Do you go?
Speaker 2: The fertility savings account?
Speaker 1: All of it was new. It's crazy to think about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean because we did write a lot
Speaker 2: from experience. But I remember when we did all the
Speaker 2: infertility stuff for Charlotte, I hadn't had children yet and
Speaker 2: like hadn't gone through that and then did afterward, and
Speaker 2: I remember a lot of that I think came from
Speaker 2: Michael Patrick King and his friends who had gone through
Speaker 2: it right. So again, like the men could write the
Speaker 2: hell out of it anything. But I felt like later
Speaker 2: like wow, that we did kind of nail it. I
Speaker 2: was kind of that was when of those things looking back,
Speaker 2: I went, oh it did. I mean, I alway felt like, oh,
Speaker 2: I could have added more because now I understand more.
Speaker 1: But I thought the same thing with my acting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was like I couldn't.
Speaker 2: I couldn't do more.
Speaker 1: I could have done more a big time. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that would have been needed necessarily, but like,
Speaker 1: once you start to go through those actual things, there
Speaker 1: is no high or low that is too high or
Speaker 1: too low.
Speaker 2: It's in that field. Oh yes, right, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: The adoption too, you know, like it happens pretty pretty simply. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's not that simple, as we both know.
Speaker 2: No, no, but.
Speaker 1: I mean I love that we did it, and maybe
Speaker 1: we I don't even know if the show would have
Speaker 1: benefited from more detail, you know.
Speaker 2: No, it's more about the emotion, that's the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's the thing. I sometimes I just think back, well,
Speaker 2: I just looked at it kind of a nod that
Speaker 2: like you did capture it, and it's somehow captured, you know,
Speaker 2: close to what it was. But it's true, you feel
Speaker 2: like I under like this is an odd thing to
Speaker 2: stay on it. But I feel like I knew women
Speaker 2: who had miscarriages when I was younger, but I didn't
Speaker 2: really know what that meant exactly to them and what
Speaker 2: kind of a loss that was.
Speaker 1: Because I don't think people talked about it.
Speaker 2: They didn't, which is sad, and so it really didn't
Speaker 2: like there were some things you kind of do have
Speaker 2: to go through to understand the depth of what it
Speaker 2: feels like to the person. And even if you have
Speaker 2: really good friends who went through it, it's just not
Speaker 2: quite the same, So that's true.
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think with the Charlotte miscarriage,
Speaker 1: I think the writing was beautiful and I had enough.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say lost, because that's not exactly
Speaker 1: the right word, but I had enough understanding from my
Speaker 1: friends and from just my own personal journey, not that
Speaker 1: I had been through that then it definitely had it,
Speaker 1: but you know, I had enough to draw on that,
Speaker 1: I think. And again, this is one of those things
Speaker 1: where like Hindsight is twenty twenty in some ways, but
Speaker 1: then also like our show has the ability to have
Speaker 1: the incredibly serious storylines but still be able to get out,
Speaker 1: you know, to come to a place. So like had
Speaker 1: we known more, had been able to get up off
Speaker 1: the sofa, get herself dressed up and go to that party.
Speaker 2: I don't know, well, I should say I think for you,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to speak for you because you're right here,
Speaker 2: But for actors, maybe you're used to playing things you
Speaker 2: haven't you don't you know how to draw on other things,
Speaker 2: And I guess as a writer I did the same.
Speaker 2: But just sometimes sometimes when you're writing and you know,
Speaker 2: like something's going to be a real gut punch, you
Speaker 2: can feel it in your gut. Yeah, you don't have
Speaker 2: to have gone through it, but like I can feel like, oh,
Speaker 2: this almost makes me cry to write it. And now
Speaker 2: this is like something I feel like I kind of
Speaker 2: would have had more of that feeling maybe, but.
Speaker 1: That's how it turned out. And I think people talk
Speaker 1: to me a lot about it now still, so you
Speaker 1: know over time that that's something that people connect with
Speaker 1: and isn't that the whole game? Right? So so yes,
Speaker 1: we can.
Speaker 2: No, I'm so and I'm so happy that it's I
Speaker 2: do feel like we're probably I'm probably more critical, but
Speaker 2: I'm so happy it holds up, like I feel like,
Speaker 2: and that's because really the themes of it, the love,
Speaker 2: the friendship, the loss, the longing, the like, loneliness, everything
Speaker 2: was the universal thing that whether you're texting or you're
Speaker 2: waiting for a phone call, it was kind of universal.
Speaker 1: Yes, And that's why I'm doing the podcast really because
Speaker 1: all these new people discovered it. But being on Netflix,
Speaker 1: right and then I really people had asked, you know,
Speaker 1: since podcasts became a thing, and I just didn't feel
Speaker 1: ready to look at it because we were all together
Speaker 1: doing and just like that, I felt like I had
Speaker 1: kind of a good advantage point of like, well, we're
Speaker 1: here now and look at how we began, and also
Speaker 1: I haven't watched them, and also I really wanted everyone's
Speaker 1: stories to be told. This is the joy of podcasting, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so all these people who've been our fans forever or
Speaker 1: new people can hear about what it was like to
Speaker 1: create it, and like you're saying, like, you know, the
Speaker 1: feeling of being in New York in the beginning when
Speaker 1: we didn't really know what it was going to be,
Speaker 1: but it had that like sizzily feeling, you know, and
Speaker 1: like that process of like walking around and having people
Speaker 1: start to talk to us about it and all of that,
Speaker 1: Like being there is incredible to think about. Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: Was it was really exciting? Yeah, And it was just
Speaker 2: I think even if it hadn't caught on, it was
Speaker 2: really nice to be writing and doing something that felt
Speaker 2: so relevant to what we were going through, what our
Speaker 2: friends were going through.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, and I'm just going to have a little
Speaker 1: just moment to talk about it and just like that,
Speaker 1: you know, whether and just like that obviously never going
Speaker 1: to be Sex and City. I don't ever think we
Speaker 1: ever thought it was going to be Sex and City,
Speaker 1: but again, we wanted to tell the stories of what
Speaker 1: we're going through in our thirties.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I think that's an important point, right, is that like
Speaker 1: here we were, it was COVID. You know, COVID had
Speaker 1: just ended. We were just able to go back out,
Speaker 1: and the thing that we had always been doing was
Speaker 1: talking about what was happening for us in our lives
Speaker 1: at this time, not necessarily my Christian story, but.
Speaker 2: Like all the people we know and just like life
Speaker 2: goes on, Yeah, and why wouldn't that be something?
Speaker 1: But I think maybe we were a little bit overly
Speaker 1: ambitious thinking that our fans. I'm gonna laugh, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: really laugh, but it's kind of funny when I think
Speaker 1: about it now, like how naive in a way at
Speaker 1: least I was that our fans he has like you're
Speaker 1: talking about death and cancer. Like we were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. And then everybody's like what are they doing?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And now it's over, which
Speaker 1: is sad. But I'm are you going to go there?
Speaker 1: But you know I'm in denial. I'm in denial because
Speaker 1: we've ended so many times. So let's talk a little.
Speaker 1: I'm wanting hear more. So you said, your agent, I
Speaker 1: want to go right on that show? Could I go
Speaker 1: right on that show? He says, yes, he gets you
Speaker 1: deal over there. You leave Raymond, You moved to New York. Yeah,
Speaker 1: got it, Like we did half and half to me too, right,
Speaker 1: We were all back and forth. So you kept your
Speaker 1: house here, you went to New York and then where
Speaker 1: you were, you and Jenny, you would have your own scripts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: wid you at some point were you consulting producers and
Speaker 1: then executive producers? What was that journey? Like, I can't remember.
Speaker 2: I think I was already like a co executive producer
Speaker 2: at Raymond, and I think I just came on as
Speaker 2: a consulting producer because literally it was a big pay
Speaker 2: cup from what I was doing. I was finally making money.
Speaker 2: But I was like, I don't care what the title is,
Speaker 2: and there were certain anyway, It's just that it was
Speaker 2: like all work for whatever at the time, and then
Speaker 2: as it was great, but I think it was just
Speaker 2: like I don't care about the title. I just want
Speaker 2: to be there. So I started as a consulting producer,
Speaker 2: got it, and then yeah, eventually became a co executive
Speaker 2: and Jenny both.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and did you were you together with Jenny in
Speaker 1: terms of like we're a partnership co executive producer. That's
Speaker 1: how I felt you guys were, huh, But I don't
Speaker 1: think you technically were. No, we were just like Julian
Speaker 1: and a Lisa are a technical partnership.
Speaker 2: I think we just like were in sync a lot
Speaker 2: of times. We were like the two girls and when
Speaker 2: it was like Michael and Darren.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, she mean you to have your own scripts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we did. We collaborated on one, like the
Speaker 2: last We collaborated on splat the very end, and that
Speaker 2: was so fun to write with Jenny, so oh my god.
Speaker 2: But I collaborated with Michael on a different one too,
Speaker 2: so yeah.
Speaker 1: But so it was like kind of a small group
Speaker 1: of writers at that point, and you would collaborate and
Speaker 1: or just be in the writer's room together, yeah, brainstorming,
Speaker 1: and then on the set with us all the time,
Speaker 1: which is the other thing people really don't realize. No,
Speaker 1: And was that unusual for you at the time, Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was my first single camera so I hadn't
Speaker 2: even been on those kind of sets right out in
Speaker 2: the world, right, But also even since then, like I've
Speaker 2: done a lot and I haven't ever been on a
Speaker 2: show where you're there that much and where even you're
Speaker 2: doing the writing there like either in a restaurant nearby
Speaker 2: or upstairs by the camera.
Speaker 1: Set with your lapshop open on your lap which would
Speaker 1: be Michael Patrick King.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you like to be there, and like not all
Speaker 2: show runners want to be there for everything, and and
Speaker 2: so we would just go along and while we were
Speaker 2: still writing. But it was great because we got to
Speaker 2: really like be the.
Speaker 1: Process and I know, so it was great for us
Speaker 1: because you know, if we had a question, we could
Speaker 1: just go over to you and we didn't have to
Speaker 1: worry if the director, we feel was like totally knowledgeable
Speaker 1: about the characters or the storyline or whatever. We could
Speaker 1: just check in with you guys, which was amazing.
Speaker 2: Yes right, no, yes, no you could. I don't know
Speaker 2: if all the directors loved that.
Speaker 1: You know what.
Speaker 2: On my very first on Chicken Dance, Yes, oh, I
Speaker 2: think you asked me something which I answered because I
Speaker 2: didn't know the protocol of all that. And then I
Speaker 2: remember the director at the time who I saw recently
Speaker 2: at a DJA, I think, and she's still angry with
Speaker 2: me about this, and I was like, I didn't know.
Speaker 2: But anyway, she said something at the time like, oh,
Speaker 2: is that what we're gonna do? A good cup, bad cup?
Speaker 2: And I was like, what, I don't even know what
Speaker 2: I'm doing.
Speaker 1: I just answer a question, but my god.
Speaker 2: But anyway, that was unusual. Most of them totally appreciated
Speaker 2: and I never came back. Please, if you're listening, Victoria,
Speaker 2: I am sorry. I didn't know how it worked.
Speaker 1: I was new.
Speaker 2: I was just excited to be there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm sure I was just excited to ask
Speaker 1: you a question and you should answer.
Speaker 2: It's like how we're going to play it and come out.
Speaker 1: But you know what I think that is about, and
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to think about it. That is
Speaker 1: about the old school TV ways. Yeah, because there was
Speaker 1: a hierarchy.
Speaker 2: Well and eniment. It's really still the director who's supposed
Speaker 2: to talk to the actor.
Speaker 1: It was very different. They don't even want the writer
Speaker 1: to come. You should not go to a film set
Speaker 1: if you're a writer, unless you're like an Oscar winning writer.
Speaker 2: Right, And this is a better experience than that. I remember.
Speaker 2: I know you had Allen Coulter on who I loved too.
Speaker 2: I think I had written one. It still took me
Speaker 2: a while to understand, like the rhythm of a film set,
Speaker 2: because like you you know, we go, we see the
Speaker 2: as soon as you finished filming one scene, you go
Speaker 2: see the rehearsal of the next scene. Nobody's in costume
Speaker 2: yet they haven't done their hair and makeup for that scene.
Speaker 2: You see the rehearsal and then the director comes up,
Speaker 2: they light. There's so much that happens.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: The rehearsal to me was like the first time hearing
Speaker 2: the actors read it, since like the table read maybe
Speaker 2: or changes. Yeah, so I would be I remember with
Speaker 2: Alan one time, I like had thoughts about it and
Speaker 2: he goes Cindy, and this was nice of him to
Speaker 2: tell me, and I remember it forever. He said, this
Speaker 2: would be like me leaning over your shoulder while you're
Speaker 2: writing a first draft, telling you, like what I think,
Speaker 2: Like I'm going to work it out. The actors are
Speaker 2: going to have thoughts and then when if you still
Speaker 2: feel like right issues And he was right. And it
Speaker 2: took me a while to just learn the rhythm of
Speaker 2: like when it was okay to interject or good to interject,
Speaker 2: because a lot of times, you guys would arrive at
Speaker 2: whatever was bothering me from the very beginning work. Well,
Speaker 2: that's good. It was only like once in a while
Speaker 2: would never be something in the staging of the rehearsal
Speaker 2: that you knew you needed to say something because it
Speaker 2: was going to be too late. That we don't wit
Speaker 2: for sure for sure, but it took we want to learn.
Speaker 1: Sense because in your mind you have written the scene.
Speaker 1: Therefore you have visualized the scene, right, And that's the
Speaker 1: weird thing about writing, right, is like in our industry, writing,
Speaker 1: of course is tremendously important, but then sometimes you guys
Speaker 1: are kind of pushed to the side, like please be
Speaker 1: quiet now, which is not really because it's a collaborative
Speaker 1: art space that we don't we can't do our job
Speaker 1: by ourselves, and you can't do your job and you
Speaker 1: can write it, but then it's just going to be
Speaker 1: on the page, you know what I mean. We could
Speaker 1: act by ourselves like on the street or whatever, but
Speaker 1: you know, we need each other. And then the director's
Speaker 1: in the middle of it all, and in depending on
Speaker 1: the director, they're either more open or less open or
Speaker 1: you know whatnot. I mean, everyone's different and I also
Speaker 1: think it's so interesting the vibe that's created. And one
Speaker 1: of the things I love about the old show and
Speaker 1: the new show, you know, is that it was always
Speaker 1: a very creative, you know place where people like I
Speaker 1: always felt, before we ever had a title or anything, right,
Speaker 1: that I was very included in the process. In Charlotte's
Speaker 1: trajectory and her arc. You know, Mike would always sit
Speaker 1: us down at the beginning before we went to work
Speaker 1: and say this is the plan, and then he would
Speaker 1: call us if it was changing, or he'd come grab
Speaker 1: us on the set and say can I talk to you?
Speaker 1: And you know, then we would come to you, like
Speaker 1: if we read something. I remember one time I had
Speaker 1: one of those really long Charlotte monologues, you know, where
Speaker 1: I just talked for like half a page or whatever,
Speaker 1: and I'm upset about something, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I think it was in the in the Tray era,
Speaker 1: and I came to you in the hallway of Silver
Speaker 1: Cup and I was like, Cindy, you know, I just
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, it's just hard to because you
Speaker 1: remember how we had to be word perfect.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's comedy.
Speaker 1: It's a comedy. It's exact right, it doesn't happen, don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean that was the that was the president said,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a good one because it wasn't.
Speaker 1: We didn't have an audience there to tell a sip.
Speaker 1: We were hitting the jokes right, So we had to
Speaker 1: trust the writing, you know, we had to trust the
Speaker 1: rhythms of the writing and the rhythms of the writing.
Speaker 1: And let me tell you when we did. And just
Speaker 1: like that, and we brought our new actors and I
Speaker 1: mean they're still talking about how.
Speaker 2: Hard it is.
Speaker 1: Oh really, because it's very specific, you know, and each
Speaker 1: character is also very specific from each other. And like
Speaker 1: my rhythm up talking, my syntax is not the same
Speaker 1: as charlotte syntax, right, And then sometimes depending on who
Speaker 1: wrote what episode, you'd be like, oh, I just can't
Speaker 1: say this. It can't get my mouth to form the words,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And I came to it
Speaker 1: and I was like, can we change it? And you
Speaker 1: were like no, Oh my god, that's a rood of me.
Speaker 2: Well, since Sex and See, I feel like I've worked
Speaker 2: on and when I directed a movie, I really wanted
Speaker 2: it to be a bit more playful and have more
Speaker 2: room for that, like I think, but I have noticed
Speaker 2: because I've now worked on some dramas and I don't
Speaker 2: know why, because I love comedy so much so I
Speaker 2: feel like I should be just But I've worked on
Speaker 2: dramas and I feel like it's somehow less precise. And
Speaker 2: it can be because it's very much the feeling and
Speaker 2: the plot and like you want the but comedy sometimes
Speaker 2: it's just like it's not funny one way, and it
Speaker 2: is funny.
Speaker 1: I think it's the rhythm of the words. You know,
Speaker 1: the rhythm of the words is super duper important. And
Speaker 1: I think the rhythm of the actors is also important,
Speaker 1: because you can't really teach comic timing. But I think
Speaker 1: that they have to work together right, and so sometimes
Speaker 1: you guys would change stuff, and I remember thinking that
Speaker 1: at the time, I don't know what was true, but
Speaker 1: I remember thinking I probably waited too long, because you know,
Speaker 1: there'd be like right after the table read, different people
Speaker 1: would request changes. And do you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: I waited till the hallway.
Speaker 2: So you're the same as me on the set, like
Speaker 2: when exactly do I enter right early but not too late.
Speaker 1: I also think for so long I never asked for
Speaker 1: anything because I was just so happy storyline right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it was getting to word like I had
Speaker 1: a lot more because of Trey and I had these long,
Speaker 1: like emotional things rather than because in the beginning. At
Speaker 1: a certain point I have my like didactic like I'm
Speaker 1: going to get married and I've got this book and
Speaker 1: this book says done, which I haven't really gotten to yet,
Speaker 1: which I thought was first season. But first season, I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of there, like, you know, not quite one
Speaker 1: hundred percent knowing what to do or whatever.
Speaker 2: I can't tell at all.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. When I look, that's what I see.
Speaker 1: I see me underneath a layer of like pretend calm,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, which obviously all of us
Speaker 1: feel at some point.
Speaker 2: But I feel like I knew Charlotte right from the
Speaker 2: baby floor, from the baby shower. For my first episode
Speaker 2: I watched, which You're.
Speaker 1: Very Charlotte, which I remember, like Jenny also Upper Eastside,
Speaker 1: you know, like once you guys came, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: thank god, Oh thank god, I'm going to get some
Speaker 1: good storylines. They get me, they get me, I mean me,
Speaker 1: but also Charlotte.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I'm saying a romantic I mean, I think
Speaker 2: of it just like the romantic side of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you got married with a white horse.
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, all of us have our you know, our visions,
Speaker 1: and we try to make them come true, right, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of glorious.
Speaker 2: No, it is do your beauty of Charlotte. I think
Speaker 2: it was like very optimistic.
Speaker 1: She was also like, you know, she was gonna work hard,
Speaker 1: She's going to do what it took. She was not
Speaker 1: going to give up. You know. You gotta love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, shall we talk about this particularly so
Speaker 3: this is evolution, which is also like such a great
Speaker 3: I don't really I'm just rediscovering all of it when
Speaker 3: I watch it because I don't really remember it exactly, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and I thought I did, and then when I rewatched,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I forgot that storyline. I forgot
Speaker 2: the fertility, like the me too, freezing your eggs was
Speaker 2: in there, me too. I forgot the Samantha story, which
Speaker 2: is like I love that moment. There's a moment where
Speaker 2: Charlotte is like, like, Samantha getting her heartbroken was more
Speaker 2: confusing to Charlotte than a kiss from a gay man.
Speaker 2: And you're like, you're just bewilderment and everything in this
Speaker 2: episode I love.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. So I totally forgot John Chay,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, was in our show. How did I not
Speaker 1: remember this? I was like, oh my god, what am
Speaker 1: I watching?
Speaker 2: Watching?
Speaker 1: And he said that we had so many I mean,
Speaker 1: and right now is when like it's really kicking in
Speaker 1: because people know what the show is now. The third
Speaker 1: season is going to be you know, next level, right,
Speaker 1: but like now is when we're really getting all the
Speaker 1: good people and writing all the good storylines. And it
Speaker 1: was so sad for Samantha. I felt really bad. I
Speaker 1: didn't remember this at all, this whole plan that she's
Speaker 1: basically this man John o'sha is he's almost like a
Speaker 1: different version of mister Big in a way right where
Speaker 1: she dated him when he was you know, a big
Speaker 1: deal and then he dropped her for a model that
Speaker 1: he married, and then they broke up and it was
Speaker 1: an ugly divorce and he had fallen in stature, which
Speaker 1: kind of made me laugh because now, if you're having
Speaker 1: an ugly divorce, I don't really think it affects the men,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Doesn't know might affect
Speaker 1: the women, might not. I don't know, it's like everyone's
Speaker 1: having an ugly divorce basically, but whatever, that was interesting.
Speaker 2: Like you fell from the cover of Fortune to like page.
Speaker 1: Six exactly, exactly exactly. But so then she has a
Speaker 1: whole plan, and I love the way that you created
Speaker 1: this storyline for her because it makes total sense and
Speaker 1: you don't really see it coming that. It's not going
Speaker 1: to be like a kind of regular Samantha storyline, right yea,
Speaker 1: there's a whole plan that she's going to date this
Speaker 1: man again, even though Carry's like what are you doing?
Speaker 1: You really hurt you and we're all like huh what,
Speaker 1: oh what?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Car said like he is the man who broke
Speaker 2: her heart and you're just like what And you know
Speaker 2: that was a possible story then got hurt.
Speaker 1: Which is pretty cool, and she seems you see that
Speaker 1: in her performance where she's like, well, I have a
Speaker 1: plan and I'm going to leave him before he does
Speaker 1: it to me. But then it doesn't go to plan.
Speaker 2: I think her plan was like right before they even
Speaker 2: have sex, she was going to be like right by
Speaker 2: then she's like, well maybe after sex, and then maybe.
Speaker 1: She thought she wouldn't have feelings because if you think
Speaker 1: about the very first pilot episode, she's like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have a sex like a man without feelings, right, yea,
Speaker 1: so it makes total perfect sense. But she wasn't born
Speaker 1: like that, right, She went through things to get there.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of an interesting like backstory that we
Speaker 1: kind of don't ever really get. Also, I literally mentioned
Speaker 1: my parents. I think at one point I'm like, what
Speaker 1: you guys, they're in Connecticut. I think we knew that part.
Speaker 1: But and then I think also previously in a Jenny episode,
Speaker 1: I say, oh, we don't talk about feelings and we
Speaker 1: just are very good at tennis.
Speaker 2: And which episode I can't even remember which episode, but
Speaker 2: the one where you're in the spawn You're like, I
Speaker 2: didn't grow up in a naked house?
Speaker 1: Was up?
Speaker 2: I forgot? I think we wouldn't know that.
Speaker 1: I mean little tidbits, little tidbits where if we collected
Speaker 1: them all, they make a pretty good picture. But I
Speaker 1: love the whole that we don't spend time on the
Speaker 1: backstory generally speaking. But okay, so we have we have this.
Speaker 1: Let's just talk about our guest starts for a second
Speaker 1: because they're so great. So we've got John Shay as
Speaker 1: Dominic who's the smith's drill, and we've got Dan Futterman
Speaker 1: just to dream.
Speaker 2: Dreamy, I mean in every way because in the episode
Speaker 2: we're not sure Charlotte like if he's gay or straight,
Speaker 2: goes on a date with them, like says, I didn't
Speaker 2: watch my hair, I wore last like it wasn't a date.
Speaker 2: He kisses her. This amazing and it's good. So when
Speaker 2: we cast that, when we were casting, when Dan Fetterman,
Speaker 2: I can't even believe he came in to read because
Speaker 2: he's like a big actor. I would we even know,
Speaker 2: But anyway he did, and both Jenny and I were enamored,
Speaker 2: and Darren and Michael were enamored. Every it's perfect. Everybody
Speaker 2: loves him.
Speaker 1: Yes, now, let me ask you this about this storyline,
Speaker 1: because this is one of the storylines. When I thought
Speaker 1: back on it, because it's Butterman, all we remember is Bututterman, right,
Speaker 1: But then I did remember that there was some kind
Speaker 1: of a metrosexual conversation, which was a word at the time.
Speaker 1: It's not a word anymore.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I don't know if that's when ages that. Well,
Speaker 2: the discussion of gay street manastery gay men like this
Speaker 2: is one of those things where I look back and
Speaker 2: I think, well, at the time, it seemed hilarious and
Speaker 2: forward thinking, and now it feels like very binary, and
Speaker 2: like I'm embarrassed that that was how we talked about it.
Speaker 2: But you kind of I don't know if you can
Speaker 2: judge like you then n we're right now that we
Speaker 2: would write it that way.
Speaker 1: No, of course we wouldn't write it that way. But
Speaker 1: I also thought, because I had Benito Skinner on last week,
Speaker 1: huh have you watched his show over Compensating? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's so good to be Okay, not only is it
Speaker 1: so good, you quote Charlotte often, which is adorable on
Speaker 1: his podcast, not in the show. And he told me
Speaker 1: when he came on the pod that when he so
Speaker 1: he created videos for Instagram during the pandemic and then
Speaker 1: put them on YouTube. This is how he became successful.
Speaker 1: It's incredible, right, He's incredibly inspiring and awesome. So when
Speaker 1: he got his show picked up at Amazon Prime, it's
Speaker 1: called overcompensating, and it's about kind of pretending that he
Speaker 1: wasn't gay and overcompensating so that no one would notice
Speaker 1: that he was, in fact gay. And the journey to
Speaker 1: in college coming out right. It's a very funny and
Speaker 1: adorable show and very reminiscent of early day sex in
Speaker 1: the city. He told me when he came on the
Speaker 1: pod that he once he got the show picked up,
Speaker 1: he was like, oh my god, what do I do now?
Speaker 1: And he watched the show throughout the whole show three
Speaker 1: times to study the structure.
Speaker 2: Wo isn't that cool? I mean, I think that's the
Speaker 2: thing is that there's still very individual stories. There's still
Speaker 2: men of a lot of trouble coming out. There's still
Speaker 2: women who are confused whether if someone's gay or not,
Speaker 2: people who.
Speaker 1: Are like it's all very fluid, Like he wasn't inside confused,
Speaker 1: but he was presenting you so like he has a
Speaker 1: best friend that he tries to date. Yeah, but they
Speaker 1: don't have sex because he's actually gay, and he kind
Speaker 1: of knows he's gay, but he doesn't want anyone else
Speaker 1: to know. So then he rags to the frat boys
Speaker 1: that he I can't repeat it. It involves sex wherever
Speaker 1: he rags, and then she finds out, and then they
Speaker 1: have a fight and then they make up and they're
Speaker 1: best friends. Right, And so he what he said to
Speaker 1: me is like the healing of having you know, gay friends,
Speaker 1: gay male whatever with women friends, like there's a healing
Speaker 1: in it, you know, and they can rely on each other.
Speaker 1: And I thought that was just so great.
Speaker 2: I think for me, the lesson is, like you can
Speaker 2: tell any individual story that's true and that's true to you.
Speaker 2: Like if that's so, I think that's a defense you
Speaker 2: can still use, and it can be as specific and
Speaker 2: it can I think what was fun about section in
Speaker 2: the day at the time is that we could make
Speaker 2: these pronouncements that felt real and like in the Zeitgeisten
Speaker 2: did start conversations and we're fun, but they were kind
Speaker 2: of generalizing about men or women or gay you know.
Speaker 2: So at the time it seem hilarious that we were
Speaker 2: capturing something that seemed true. But I think maybe because
Speaker 2: it was trying to be generalizing that made it like
Speaker 2: when you look back, maybe we were.
Speaker 1: I also think at the time, I believe that we
Speaker 1: were all going around talking about metrosexual and they were
Speaker 1: all writing magazines about metrosexual, which I think if I
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm right, but it was basically like
Speaker 1: a straight man theoretically who grooms themselves like a gay man?
Speaker 2: Right, and culturally, we thought, yeah, we have culture things
Speaker 2: that we thought were gay, right, which not necessarily but
Speaker 2: like great style, great culture or references. Right, Yeah, but
Speaker 2: we don't.
Speaker 1: Ever use the word metrosexual in the episode, which I
Speaker 1: thought we did, but we don't. We do we talk
Speaker 1: about gay straight men and gay straight gay men or whatever,
Speaker 1: which also like I was like, I don't even know
Speaker 1: what the heck we're saying, but whatever, it's super interesting, right,
Speaker 1: But basically I do ask him have you ever been
Speaker 1: with a man? And then he asked me if I've
Speaker 1: ever been with a woman? And I don't answer, which
Speaker 1: I find weird also, right, and then this is where
Speaker 1: I thought was also interesting because I couldn't remember the details.
Speaker 1: I just knew it was like a questionable storyline, right,
Speaker 1: But it's also Dan Futterman, So yeah, we love it.
Speaker 2: I love it still, Like I stand by it. I
Speaker 2: just think like some of those things don't diet an
Speaker 2: age as well. But I still love the storyline and
Speaker 2: like you trying to make sense of like.
Speaker 1: What is happening? Yeah, yeah, And then at the end
Speaker 1: when the mouse is there and he jumps on the
Speaker 1: chair and kind of squeals, and then the voiceover says
Speaker 1: something to the effect of Charlotte wasn't well enough developed
Speaker 1: in her masculine side to be with someone who was
Speaker 1: so well developed in their feminine side. Yeah, something like that,
Speaker 1: which is a very deep statement. And that's fine to say,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: No, I think it. I mean, I think it. I
Speaker 2: mean I love that whole. As someone who's been confused
Speaker 2: myself and married someone who realized he was gay after
Speaker 2: being married, I feel uniquely qualified to say that it's
Speaker 2: confusing sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is confusing, and.
Speaker 2: You do kind of want some clarity sometimes just because
Speaker 2: you need to. I don't know.
Speaker 1: So I don't do anything wrong with one in clarity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I love that in that scene when
Speaker 2: when you ask him in bed and he says like,
Speaker 2: I'm a pastry chef who lives in Chelsea. If I
Speaker 2: were gay, I would be gay totally, like, which was
Speaker 2: really smart.
Speaker 1: At that time.
Speaker 2: It's true, like he wouldn't he could.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you just be You'd be doing great? He would be, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean very busy. Your schedule would be booked and
Speaker 1: you're adorable.
Speaker 2: But I also love in this from this scene where
Speaker 2: you bring Carrie and Stanford to the place for the
Speaker 2: pastries just to decide yes.
Speaker 1: And it must have been like the casting of of Futterman,
Speaker 1: because literally everyone at the table likes him. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: like every like Willie says, Stanford says will I'm attracted
Speaker 1: to him, so he must be straight, which is so funny.
Speaker 2: And all the good ones are straight, even the gay ones.
Speaker 2: It was really, really, God Willy, I know.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: That's a fun one to rewatch though, of him. So fun.
Speaker 1: All right, you guys, it is too much fun to
Speaker 1: have Cindy Schuback here. So we are going to come
Speaker 1: back for part two later in the week. Please join
Speaker 1: us on Are You a Charlotte