1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: This podcast has content that may not be appropriate for 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: all audiences. You'll hear about some difficult subjects like substance abuse, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts, childhood, sexual abuse, and sexual assault. Please take care. 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Last time on Crumbs, I lost hope. I was chasing 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the hope that I was fine, that I could manage 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: this parting phase of my life and still be the responsible, 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: driven person I always wanted to be. The pressure was 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: too much. I hoped that I could make it all work, 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: but instead I lost control of everything, including myself, and 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: that made me feel worthless, hopeless, dark. I attempted suicide, 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: and in those darkest moments, a few strangers gave me 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: a glimmer of positive like pointing me towards the light 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: at the end of a long, long tunnel, but I 14 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of wanted to walk the other way. I was 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: really reluctant. I felt sort of forced to go to 16 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: my first twelf set meeting in July of two thousand 17 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: and six, but I was met with more positivity. I 18 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: found myself feeling like maybe this was the right tunnel 19 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: for me to be in after all, Like maybe I 20 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: should just keep moving forward towards the light, so I 21 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: keep going back to meetings one day at a time. 22 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,639 Speaker 1: But there are days when the tunnel feels so long, 23 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: in fact, it's impossible to know where it ends, if 24 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: it ever does, and you don't just walk casually towards 25 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: the light. It turns out I need to change a 26 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: lot in order to keep going, and that the change 27 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: requires believing in the process and in myself, so called 28 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: surrendering to the program. But what's it like to actually 29 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,679 Speaker 1: change course? How can you learn to go down this 30 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: new tunnel towards the light when you spent so long 31 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: living one way in the dark. I'm Emmy and this 32 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: is crumbs. It's to show about the things we settle 33 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: for and the bits of ourselves that make us who 34 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: we are. This season my sobriety journey in twelve steps, 35 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: Step three surrender. This episode, I try to surrender to 36 00:02:50,760 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: the program. Instead, I surrender to something else. It's July 37 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and six. I am navigating how to live sober. 38 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: I go to one to two meetings a day, spending 39 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: seven to twelve hours a week in meetings in churches, 40 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: coffee shops, clubhouses, and it's hard. I'm open to the 41 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: idea that maybe there could be a different way of life. 42 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: But they tell me that the first thing that I 43 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: had to change is everything. What wouldes that look like? 44 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: Alcohol is used for so many celebrations, always whether oh 45 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: I got a promotion, let's go have a happy hour, 46 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: or you know, someone die, let's go drink. So alcohol 47 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: is used in so many social settings. Alcohol was my 48 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: social lubricant. Right when I had alcohol or a drug, 49 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: I had a voice, a bone, and I was in 50 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: just this timid, quiet person that people stepped all over. 51 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: So it's hard to break that way of thinking and living. 52 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: And everyone that I knew that I was hanging out 53 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: with was partying and drinking. If you really stop and 54 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: think about it, who are my friends? The drug dealers, 55 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: the people that are getting drunk. And it wasn't like 56 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: you have to never talk to them again. It was 57 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: like put them on ice, like put them on pause 58 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: for now, that kind of idea. But honestly, it was 59 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: easy because no one wanted anything to do with me 60 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: at that point. I was in the fellowship and in 61 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: the group of people who were invested in my recovery. 62 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: You're building a community where people are inviting you to 63 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: come back the next day or to another meet or 64 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: You hear people's experience, their strength, their hope. You hear 65 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: stories where you identify your crazy drunk logs, crazy war stories. 66 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: That's identification. And then you hear people talking about the solution, 67 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: their recovery process, what tools they use to get through anything. 68 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: Finding community in a group of people that really cared 69 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: about how I was feeling or how I was doing 70 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: made me feel like a part of something. The fact 71 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: that they wanted me to come back the next day 72 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: it felt really nice. I felt like I was really 73 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: good at programming. I was consistent, I was showing up. 74 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: I was invested. Pretty early on. I'm told that I 75 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: need to find a sponsor. At the time this was 76 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: pre transition, it suggested that you work with someone of 77 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: the same gender. So I'm basically trying to find a 78 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: man to tell all my secrets to someone to serve 79 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: as a mentor in a twelve step program, and this 80 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: person is supposed to guide me and show me how 81 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: to take each one of those steps. It is suggested 82 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 1: that when looking for a mentor, you look for someone 83 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: who has the qualities that you desire to have in you. 84 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: But I really know what the sober version of myself 85 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: would really be like I was still sort of resistant 86 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: that I had to kind of do this one eighty 87 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: on myself. I decided that I was looking for pretty 88 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: generic things. Someone stable, someone with a job, someone nice. 89 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: So you go to meetings trying to find that person. 90 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to these twelve step gay meetings, That's what 91 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: was suggested to me. But I'm not really connecting with 92 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: someone that I want to have at a mentor capacity. 93 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: I don't know how to have connections with men that 94 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: aren't sexual. I didn't have a father figure. And one 95 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: day I go to a different meeting and I hear 96 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: this guy share and he talks about his story. He 97 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: had a problem with heroin, talked about shooting up. He 98 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: had this way of explaining his IV using in a 99 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: way that I could relate it to my drinking, So 100 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: I felt like I could have a conversation with him 101 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: about using. He was someone that I saw was very 102 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: well liked by the people around him. He had a 103 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: lot of friends, and that's equality I really wanted. And 104 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: he was really cute. He was a guy of average height, 105 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: surfer with tattoos, but short hair, straight white guy. I thought, Wow, 106 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: this guy reminds me of my mom, and I'm really 107 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: attracted to him. I think maybe this will be a 108 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: good motivation for me. He's gonna be my sponsor. Probably 109 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: not the best choice. I didn't fully realize it at 110 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: the time, but the kind of intimacy you need to 111 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: have with a sponsor was not the kind of intimacy 112 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: that I was used to. I was going to have 113 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: to be really honest with him about my past, and 114 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: the reality is I find it hard to be really 115 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: honest with people that I'm attracted to, especially about sexual traumas. 116 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: But about four months in he relapses. I think back 117 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: then I was such a newcomer and still didn't know 118 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of everything recovery related that because 119 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: he had five years of soet it just made it 120 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: seem like he was untouchable, right because here I am 121 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,479 Speaker 1: with months of sobriety, aspiring to have now long term sobriety, 122 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: which to me back then five years just seemed like 123 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: an eternity. So the fact that he had relapsed was 124 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: so shocking to me. Even though I was very shocked 125 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: about it, I wasn't really emotionally invested in it. I 126 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: just kind of felt like I had to move on, 127 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: so I looked for someone else, find a different sponsor. 128 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: So I started to think about this other person who 129 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: I had met at my regular talk slup meeting. You know, 130 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: I knew him from meetings. I was cordial with him, 131 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: and he knew the situation that I was in, so 132 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: he kind of appointed himself as my sponsor. He approached 133 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: me and just said, I'm going to be your sponsor. 134 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: He didn't even ask me, he just told me. But 135 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: I've heard of those things happening in the program, so 136 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: I rolled with it. He was gay, so we had 137 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: that in common. Plus he had about five years of sobriety, 138 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: so that made it feel like it could be a 139 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: good fit. I wasn't attracted to him. The problem was 140 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: that he was attracted to everyone else in the room. 141 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: We'd make an appointment to me, so while I'm telling 142 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: him my deepest, darkest secrets, he's eye fucking every guy 143 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: that walks by. So I wouldn't say he was the 144 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:48,599 Speaker 1: best fit either. But here's the thing. My life was improving, 145 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: it was changing for the better. My family was talking 146 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: to me, I hadn't lost my job. I was waking 147 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: up feeling good about myself. Self esteem was coming back, 148 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: and I was making new friendships. My relationships with my 149 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: old friends were still there. They weren't where they were 150 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: prior to me getting sober, but I was on track 151 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: to mending them. I was working towards showing with actions 152 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: that my life was changing instead of making promises, even 153 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: though it really hadn't been my choice. I started to 154 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: surrender to this process, and for all the challenges, I 155 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: was really starting to feel community. The community that I 156 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: found in the program right away was enough for me 157 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: to have buy in. It was enough for me to 158 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: feel hope that things were getting better because that community, 159 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: even though I don't know people that well, the community 160 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: kind of feels like a safety net when I feel 161 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: like falling and I want to escape. Even though I 162 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: just had a really scary moment where I almost died, 163 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: there are times when I want to drink. It happened 164 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: a few times in the beginning of my sobriety, like 165 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: on day seventeen. I had come back from the hospital 166 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: not that long before then, and I was in the 167 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: room where I overdosed. I had to give my dog 168 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: away because I wasn't in the place to live on 169 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: my own. My friends aren't really talking to me. And 170 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: there I was out with her boyfriend. Then yeah, I 171 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: was with Mamilicha and I was by myself. I felt 172 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: very lonely and I would drive to these meetings and 173 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm fairly new. I don't know people, and it's really 174 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: weird and awkward and uncomfortable to try to get to 175 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: know people in the fellowship because I'm sober now, I'm shy, 176 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm timid, I'm quiet. I don't know how to ask 177 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: for what I need. And I just got in my 178 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: head that night and I remember calling someone that had 179 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: given me their number and saying, Hi, I'm really going 180 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: through it today, and they talked to me for a while. 181 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: That's a big part of TOSS that programs supporting each 182 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: other through hard times or hard moments. Now, during this time, 183 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: one of my coworkers, who was also sober, was running 184 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: a room. He had nine years sober and I had 185 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe six months. I thought living with 186 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: someone sober would be a good idea for me. My 187 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: coworker that I had met through mutual friends was older 188 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: than me, he was stable, he had just purchased his 189 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: first home. I was seeing him get all these material 190 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: things what I thought were the gifts of sobriety. So 191 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: I felt like living with him would be a great 192 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: idea because it would be a safe place for me. 193 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: He was very nice, he was very generous, and people 194 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: loved him. Those were some things that I aspired for myself, 195 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: so I moved in with him. Around this time, I'm 196 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: getting to this step in my recovery process where I 197 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: have to take inventory. So inventory is basically you make 198 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: a list of mistakes that you've made and relationships that 199 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: you've harmed. The point of this process is to really 200 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: see where you had been wrong in whatever situation you 201 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: wrote down, to identify what flaws you might have in 202 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: you as a person, and try to correct them so 203 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: you don't continue that pattern of making the same mistake 204 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: over and over again. I mean, there are situations that 205 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: you don't have a pardon, and this is why you 206 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: work closely with your sponsor. It's easier for someone else 207 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: to help you identify it if it's not obvious to you. 208 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: And in some situations you don't have a part, you're 209 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: not at fault. Also, in this step you really talk 210 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: about your sexual patterns. That was terrifying for me, because 211 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: of my sexual abuse, it makes sense that I was 212 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: scared to talk about such vulnerable things. For me, a 213 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: big theme is that some of the worst experiences of 214 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: my life were my fault, that I deserved it, all 215 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: of these terrible things that people with trauma think, and 216 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: it makes sense if we're taking accountability for all of 217 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: our other mistakes. It's hard to convince myself that this 218 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: wasn't my mistake too. I was not willing to open 219 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: that door. I didn't feel comfortable even starting to talk 220 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: about it with my sponsor. I didn't know if it 221 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: was that he was checked out of our relationship or 222 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: that I wasn't chasing him enough to do the work. 223 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: But I just didn't seek out his help, so I 224 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: stopped going to meetings. I think if I would have 225 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: had a different sponsor, a different, more trusting relationship, the 226 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: results would have been different. I might have been able 227 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: to see the difference between something I had a fault 228 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: in and something that I didn't. So I'm spending a 229 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: lot of time at home with my roommate, who is 230 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,719 Speaker 1: also sober, but also not going to meetings. So now 231 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: you have a household of two sober people who aren't 232 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: going to meetings, who aren't participating in their recovery. It's 233 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: like being on antibiotics, right. You're supposed to take twelve pills. 234 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: You have to take them for twelve days straight, but 235 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: at day three you start feeling better and you stop 236 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: taking the rest of the medication, and then you get 237 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: sick again and wonder why you didn't get cleared up. 238 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: That's how it felt for me sitting at home with 239 00:17:51,840 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: my roommate. I felt healed, and I wasn't. I stopped 240 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: going to meetings because people were asking me, how's your 241 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: fourth step coming along? And I got tired of people 242 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: asking me that because I was really digging into some 243 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: gnarly things and it was very uncomfortable. I'm scratching the 244 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: surface of some things that hurt, and my brain was 245 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: looking for an excuse to take a drink. So on 246 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: Memorrow Day weekend of two thousand and seven, my roommate 247 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: and I were just paying out in our apartment, no plans, 248 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: nothing to do. But it was a long, three day weekend, 249 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: and I think we were getting restless. It's a weekend 250 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: where a lot of people go to the beach or 251 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: party or drink, and we didn't have any plans, and 252 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: it kind of started as a joke. I think we 253 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: had talked about the idea or maybe romanticizing what drinking 254 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: would be like it'd be great to have a drink 255 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: right now. But that part of myself that was really 256 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: hurting from that fourth step totally latched onto that joke 257 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: and I couldn't let go, so we enabled each other. 258 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: It led up to this moment, like, let's just order 259 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: a bottle of rum ending about my AK forty seven 260 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: incident or all the shit I'd stolen. As soon as 261 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: the bottle got delivered, I started salivating. I served myself 262 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: a little bit in a cup, mixed it with some 263 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: diet coke, took a first sip, and I was like 264 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: a light went out inside of me. It was only 265 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: when that light went out that I realized it was 266 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: on to begin with, Like when the power goes out, 267 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: it's so shocking. It was only after I took that 268 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: first drink that I realized what had happened. I think 269 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: my heart wanted to be sober, but my attic brain 270 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: just got in the way, and one I felt the 271 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: sadness I had just thrown away ten months of sobriety 272 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: and my roommate had thrown away nine years. So don't 273 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: get me wrong, ten months of sobriety is a really 274 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: long time for a newcomer, but nine years, which is 275 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: what my roommate had at the time, seemed like forever. 276 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: So naturally, yes, I was feeling guilty that he had 277 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: just thrown away nine years. Did I enable that? Did 278 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: he enable me? I mean, looking back and actually having 279 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: this guss this with him. He felt really shitty about 280 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: enabling a newcomer to relapse, so we both felt really bad. 281 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: At that point, I figured, what the fuck, I'll just 282 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: keep drinking, and that's exactly what I did. So I 283 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: started going out again. I started partying. I didn't have 284 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: the connections that I had ten months previous. People had 285 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: moved on. I'm not finding coke very easily. But I 286 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: had access to pain meds because I'd had some dental 287 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: work done and I had a lacic is surgery scheduled. 288 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: So I started taking those pain meds, and guess what 289 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: came back my blackouts. One night, we were all drinking 290 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: with my roommate's friends, and the last thing I remember 291 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: was taking a shot. When I come too I'm in 292 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 1: the backsetate of my grandparents car in Mexico, and then 293 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: it kind of graze out, and when I come to again, 294 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: I am in the middle of a lasic procedure. I'm 295 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: staring at this little green dot of light, and in 296 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: my peripheral vision, I could see a red dot coming 297 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: closer and closer and then blinking, zapping at my eye. 298 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: The doctor and the nurse or whoever was in the room, 299 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: I kept hearing them keep looking at the green light, 300 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: keep looking at the green light. But I could see 301 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: from the corner of my eye the red light working 302 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: on it. And I could feel like something was burning. 303 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: It's like a burnt smell, like burn flesh, Like I 304 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: woke up from my sleep and all of a sudden, 305 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: my flesh is being burned. My eyeballs are being burned. 306 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: I could smell alcohol seeping through my pores. I felt 307 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: like shit. I was wearing the same clothes as the 308 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: night before. I was basically still drunk and high. I 309 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: just wanted to get the hell out of that doctor's office. 310 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: I wanted to go home. I didn't know what was 311 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: said to me about the aftercare procedure. I went home 312 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: and my eyesight was blurry. The next day when I 313 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: woke up, it was even blurrier, and then they got 314 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: blurrier to the point where I could not see. I thought, 315 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: because I got the procedure drunk, that I was going 316 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: to lose my vision. The doctor said that it was normal, 317 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: that it was going to even itself out eventually, but 318 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: I was so anxious, honestly mortified. I was like, what 319 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: have I done to myself? It kind of felt like bad, 320 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: a karma like punishment for relapsing. So my vision is 321 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: blurry for twenty eight days. During these twenty eight days, 322 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm riddled with anxiety, thinking that I'm never going to 323 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: be able to see again. So I'm coping with santix 324 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: and vicodin, and I'm eventually able to see again. But 325 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: at this point, I'm hooked on pills, I'm drinking regularly, 326 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm getting cocaine wherever I can, whenever I can, and 327 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: I'm nowhere close to seeing the light at the end 328 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: of the tunnel. I'm in the darkness of my drinking 329 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: and I wasn't really even stopping to think of where 330 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: I was. During this time, my roommate reconnected with an 331 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: old love crystalm I'd wake up or come home from 332 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: all night of partying, and my roommate would be vacuuming 333 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: at four o'clock in the morning, cleaning the bathroom at 334 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: odd hours. I've seen what people on crystal meth can do. 335 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: They can go into a psychosis. So I start locking 336 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: my door at night in my room because I'm scared 337 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: of my roommate. So at some point I thought I 338 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: had to say something. I was worried about him. I 339 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: sat him down and I spelled it out for him. 340 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: You have a mortgage, you have a car. You're gonna 341 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: lose it all. You know. I've had this pattern where 342 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: I can be a functioning alcoholic radic before going down 343 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: that crazy crash. I guess during this time, I was 344 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: in my functioning phase of only abusing Xanax and vigadin 345 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: and drinking. I felt like it was manageable, so I 346 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: could recognize a problem in my roommate's drug use, but 347 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: I didn't really see anything wrong with myself. He heard 348 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: what I was saying, he's been there or he's lost 349 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: it all, and he was about to do the same. 350 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: So he checked himself into a rehab with a condition 351 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: that I get sober too. It's interesting that we could 352 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: see the problems in each other, well we can't see 353 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: them in ourselves. I saw that he needed help, but 354 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: I thought I was perfectly fine. I mean, I felt 355 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: like I was functional, but I think I was just 356 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: kind of lying to myself. So I drove my roommate 357 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: to rehub, told him I would get sober, and I 358 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: went back to my top step meeting. I introduced my 359 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: self was a newcomer, had shame and guilt about it, 360 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: but everyone welcomed me with open arms. I'd get three 361 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: days and I'd relapse. I'd get one day, I'd relapse, 362 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: four days, I'd relapse, two days here relapse. I couldn't 363 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: do it. It was very hard, and this is when 364 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: it became clear that the tunnel I felt like I 365 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: was in with a light at the end of it 366 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: and nice people pointing me forward. It was actually amaze. 367 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: Every time I turned down a path of relapse, I'd 368 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: end up confused and lost, feeling like I wasn't just 369 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 1: back where I started, but actually that the light was 370 00:27:52,200 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: further away. Getting sober for me the first time was 371 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 1: so much easier. I had gone through a very traumatic 372 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: experience where I almost died the second time. I was 373 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: so disconnected from that feeling, and I thought to myself, Gee, 374 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: I'm really young. I don't need to be sober because 375 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: you become so removed from those scary situations, and it's 376 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: not until you start getting into those scary situations again 377 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: that you feel like maybe you're hitting rock bottom. At 378 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: one point, I got so embarrassed for introducing myself as 379 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: a newcomer, I stopped trying to get sober. During this 380 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: time that my roommate was in rehab, I started going 381 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: out a lot. I met a new group of guys, 382 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: and I wake up in strange places, sometimes with souvenirs, 383 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: because that's the thing about me. When I drink, I 384 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: always take something from you. I had a collection of 385 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: things driver's license, debit cards, keys, a cell phone, things 386 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: that I was too embarrassed to give back. But when 387 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: my room I came home, he knew I wasn't sober. 388 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: He could tell. He wanted me to move out, but 389 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: I had nowhere to go, so I begged and I pleaded. 390 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: I said, please let me stay. I'll only drink outside 391 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: of the apartment. And being nearly sober with no boundaries. 392 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: He let me stay under that condition that I wouldn't 393 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: bring alcohol into the house. The very next day, I 394 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: come to you from a blackout and I'm in my 395 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm wearing some really tall man's jeans. I have scratches 396 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: on my face, and I'm like, what the fuck happened? 397 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: I opened the door of my bedroom. I could see 398 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: my roommate. He's sitting down on the couch. He looks 399 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: at me. He does not look happy, and he said, 400 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: do you know what you did last night? And my 401 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: heart sank. Apparently I came home in a blackout, busted 402 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: his door open and wanted to fight him. I had 403 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: taken it too far. He told me to leave. I 404 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: was in a really bad place. I fell trapped in 405 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: this cycle, going around and the round, in this maze 406 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: with no end in sight. People knew that I had relapsed. 407 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: My sister had a newborn, and she told me she 408 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: didn't want me around her daughter. I had nowhere to go, 409 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: so I begged, and I pleaded, please don't kick me out. 410 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: I'll do whatever you want. And he said, you can 411 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: say if you go into treatment. I really had no choice. 412 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: What was I going to say? No? So I called 413 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 1: my insurance. They gave me a list of rehabs. I 414 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 1: went online and I found the nicest rehab that they 415 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: would pay for. It was in Pasadena. For the non 416 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: Californians listening, Pasadena is a beautiful city just outside of 417 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. It's called the City of Roses, and it 418 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: used to be a resort town. And this rehab facility 419 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: sort of looked like a resort. It had a tennis court, 420 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: it had bungalows, lots of green. I called them, they 421 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: did a screening over the phone. I mentioned I wanted 422 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: to tour the facility, and they said, sure, come on in, 423 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: and they gave me an appointment. It was for the 424 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: next day. So I humped the phone and I thought, sure, 425 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: I'll go. I'll check it out. We'll see. I was 426 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: just trying to buy time until I found a new 427 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: place to live so that I could drink again. So 428 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: I tried to surrender to the program, and that didn't work. 429 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: The darkness of my past was too terrifying. So I 430 00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: surrendered to a different darkness, the blackouts, the chaos of 431 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: using and regretting and using again. I kept getting lost 432 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: in this maze affusing and recovery and relapse and feeling powerless, 433 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: like my destiny was to be trapped forever and then 434 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: just to get the heat off my back. Without really 435 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: realizing it, I took a different turn. I made a 436 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: phone call that started me towards a new path in 437 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: this maze of recovery. That's next time on Crumbs. Hey, listeners, 438 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of difficult subjects that we cover in 439 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: this show. If you are someone you know needs help, 440 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: you can reach the Substance Abuse in Mental Health Services 441 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: Hotline at one eight hundred sixty six y two four 442 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: three five seven. They'll connect you with information and resources 443 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: on treatment. There's also the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 444 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: one eight hundred two seven three ta al K. Both 445 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: are available twenty four to seven. You don't have to 446 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: be in crisis to reach out either. They're available to 447 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: anyone who needs help. You can also reach the National 448 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: Sexual Assault Hotline twenty four to seven at one eight 449 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: hundred six five six four six seven three. Crumbs is 450 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: a Sonoto production in partnership with Iheartsmikultura Network and Trojan 451 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: Horse Media. It's produced by Margaret Catcher and Patimei Ragunav 452 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: and edited by Rodrigo Grespo. Original music by D. Peter 453 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: Schmidt and engineering by manoel Barra Studio. Recording by JTV 454 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: Recording and Podcasting Studio. Executive produced by Conor Burne and 455 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: jesselb and says for iHeart, Alex Filmeto, Elizabeth shut So 456 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: and Margaret catch Up for Trojan Horse, Camilla Vitriano, Joshua Weinstein, 457 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: Forer Sonoro and me EMMIOLEA special thanks to Marina Cornella. 458 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: Listen to Crumbs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 459 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.