WEBVTT - AI Wants Your Life: Tech Boss Meredith Whittaker Says No 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:08.120 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.520 We can't live a full, dignified life with the ability 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:18.040 to questioned authority, to test ideas, to blow off steam. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:22.160 If we don't have private communication, you can't do military strategy, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.760 you can't do human rights work, you can't do journalism 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:25.440 full stop. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.520 Meredith Whittaker, tech boss and defender of privacy. I got 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:33.080 the impression that by the end of your time at 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.400 Google you were kind of a thorn in management side. 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.640 It wasn't Meredith versus Google. There is a round swell 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.000 of sentiment within tech now that is concerned with the 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.840 fundamental question, how do we make sure that we are 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:52.960 collectively governing this powerful technology so that those who would 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:55.640 do harm with it aren't those who are in control. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:02.560 From Blueberg Weekend. This is the Michelle Hussein Show. I'm 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:11.800 Michelle Hussein. Whether it's social media, bands, AI and military strikes, 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:16.480 the destruction of jobs, debates about tech in our lives 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:20.680 are all around us every day. I'm old enough to 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.000 remember the nineties and the emergence of what today we 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:29.360 call big tech. Back then, the companies were perceived as benign. 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.040 They were full of important and exciting features that would 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.080 connect us to people around the world, and they were 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.119 pretty much free to use. Today the story is much 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:44.600 more complex, But even so, how many of us really 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:48.760 think hard enough about our choices in tech, the products 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.440 we use, and what the companies get out of us. Well, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.680 this conversation is with Meredith Whitaker, a tech boss who 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.680 is different from her peers, partly because her product, the 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:07.960 messaging app Signal, is nonprofit and also it has a 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:14.120 deep and she says, unshakable promise to barely even collect 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.520 our data, let alone sell it. If you're not a 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.720 Signal user, but you know you've heard about it somewhere. 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.639 It's probably because of the moment last year when the 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:30.160 then US National Security Advisor added a journalist to what 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.680 should have been a classified group chat about military action 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:39.160 in Yemen. It became known, of course as Signalgate. So 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.200 that's some of the background. But as Meredith Whittaker came 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.320 into the studio, there was a live issue in the UK, 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.600 the government's plans to make it impossible for under eighteens 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.239 to take or share nude images on their phones. As 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.800 you'll hear, she's got views on that, both the principle 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:03.200 and whether the idea is even workable, but I had 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.720 questions too on whether everyone has a right to be private, 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:14.960 what about crime, abuse, terrorism? Ultimately, I hope you find 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.040 this as compelling as I did. Meredith Whittaker is able 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.320 to see the ironies in her world, to spot the 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.880 moments of humor even and at the same time make 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:30.960 us think. Obviously, I think some people listening to this 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.320 might be pretty new to Signal, but I think anything 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.360 that you can say to let us into your world 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.760 and to tell us about you as well as what 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.480 you do, I think it will be great to. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.400 I'll do my best. I think Signal is a bit 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:44.440 more interesting than I am. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:49.720 But Meredith, I guess I would just love to start 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:54.000 by asking about your own journey towards what you do now. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.800 Because you worked in big tech at Google for more 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.560 than a decade, was there a moment in that period 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:05.320 where you really started to think differently about privacy and data, 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.320 a moment you can identify that's kind of critical in 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:09.960 the development of your story. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.920 I have considered that question. Is there a point where 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.320 I tripped over something or a revelation happened? You know 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.880 Athena with birth from the forehead of Zeus and suddenly 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.960 there's insight. I don't think it was a moment. I 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.120 come out of an non traditional background for somebody working 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.479 in the tech industry. I studied literature, I said, rhetoric. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.760 I was always an arts kid, and that's still where I, 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.680 as a human being, really live. I love it, and 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:45.039 so I was calibrated to perhaps ask different questions or 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.880 just you know, pursue different inquiries. But I think it 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:54.279 was it was over time beginning to understand Google's business models, 0:04:54.440 --> 0:05:00.799 the political economic forces that were animating the company. After 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.240 coming in, as they say, a novice, I did not 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.240 pursue computer science in school. I was not interested in tech. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.600 I did not get you know, a Commodore sixty four 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.279 when I was a kid, and everything took off from there. 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.599 And I loved computers right, which you know, the classic 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.960 origin story. And so I had to ask really really 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.719 fundamental questions. YEA, what is a server? 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.159 Would I be right in thinking of you as a 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.640 bit of a contrarian or maybe a rebel. I know 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.880 that there was a key moment in your time at 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.800 Google where you organized colleagues against a Pentagon contract that 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.520 you realized was being signed. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.360 I wouldn't adopt those terms myself. You know, I am 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:47.920 somebody who thinks it's really important to maintain the dignity 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.760 of my analysis. Like if something is true, if there 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.880 is empirical evidence supporting a conclusion, if we can look 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.839 at the map and clearly see that there's a problem 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.719 on the road ahead, then I am not somebody who's 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:07.760 going to go along to get along with a convenient delusion. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.400 Those things, once I see them, I am not going 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.040 to veer away or pretend that they don't exist, even 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.640 if I have to take steps that might be scary 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.480 or against the grain to do that. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.280 So I got the impression that by the end of 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.040 your time at Google you were kind of a thorn 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.320 in management side. You were organizing walkouts on other issues, 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.880 ethics issues, and they saw you as a problem. 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.760 Well, people who would like to put the goals of 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:44.039 infinite growth, infinite revenue profit above the reality of the 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:48.080 harms or the problems or the choppy seas on the 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.000 road ahead don't like people who point that out. But 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:53.799 I do want to sort of frame that it wasn't 0:06:54.080 --> 0:07:01.200 It wasn't Meredith versus Google. This was a groundswell from 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.360 thousands of people. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.599 The workouts and the walkouts at the time where people 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.640 came out in big numbers too. We see protested different things. 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:14.920 Let's go today Deep mind employees just unionized, concerned about 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.360 the application of that technology for harmful purposes. You have 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.520 open AI employees beginning to organize or that's being reported 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.480 in preparation for the IPO. There is a sort of 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:31.560 groundswell of sentiment within tech now and outside of tech 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:36.160 that is concerned with the fundamental question that I don't 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.800 think can be avoided by anyone. How do we make 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:45.920 sure that we are collectively governing this powerful technology so 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.040 that those who would do harm with it aren't those 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.440 who are in control. How do we scrutinize it, how 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.120 do we put guardrails on it, How do we determine 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.120 where it's used, where it's not used, how it's developed, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.680 and what the goals of that development are. Those are 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.640 fun mental question that every world leader, every government, every 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.160 community considering a data center needs to be looking at 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.840 and where the leverage for governance where that fulcrum exists 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.960 is an open question given the bipolar tech world we 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.080 live in and the volatile geopolitical environment, where. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.040 The fact that the tech will seems to becoming ever 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.080 more powerful, not least with the amount of interest in 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.720 the IPOs. Absolutely, I want to take a moment to 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.320 really understand what you do at Signal. The core promise 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.520 is end to end encryption, which means only the sender 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.000 or receiver can see the actual content of the messages. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.880 So how is that different from WhatsApp, which also has 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:41.720 the same promise. 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.320 Well, the core promise of Signal is that in the 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:52.280 digital world, where almost every micro action is surveilled, turned 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.360 into data, processed in models, sold to advertisers, sold to 0:08:55.440 --> 0:09:00.240 data brokers, et cetera, et cetera, we preserve the fundamental 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.840 human right to private communication full stop, which has existed 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.120 for hundreds of thousands of years. That was the norm. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.880 If you and I are talking, that conversation is gone 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.280 once we are done talking and part ways. And we 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.240 have moved into a world where that ground has shifted 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.360 dramatically out from under us, and that is no longer true. 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.160 And we think that it is considered a fundamental human 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.360 right for a very good reason. We can't live a full, 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:31.360 dignified life with the ability to questioned authority, to have 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.000 different relationships with people to test ideas, to blow off steam. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.080 If we don't have private communication, you can't do military strategy, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.679 you can't do human rights work, you can't do journalism 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:48.520 full stop. So Signal provides that in as robust away 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.400 as we can. We developed the encryption protocol, the Signal protocol, 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:57.200 that moved the field forward. In twenty thirteen, we introduced 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.520 that to the world, and that is the co of 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:05.199 our offering that protects the message content. On Signal, what 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.560 you send only goes between sender and receiver. Only the 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.800 people you're talking to know it. WhatsApp licenses that protocol 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.520 from us, and they also apply it to many of 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.199 their messages that are sent. What'sapp for business is excluded 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.840 from this in many cases, but they protect message content, 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.320 so what you type, what you say is to end encrypted. 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.440 They can't see it only the center and receiver. However, 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.319 you have to look at privacy beyond simply the message content, 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.400 and this is where there are very fundamental differences between 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.640 WhatsApp and Signal. Signal also applies encryption to protect what 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.400 is called metadata, but that is extremely intimate. It's extremely 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.280 revealing data. It's your profile, photo, your name, who you 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.480 talk to when you talk to them, who's in your groups, 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.960 how often you chat? When did you text your oncologists? 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:00.960 When did you text your things therapist, When did you 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.920 text your lawyer? When did you text someone or your 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.920 best friend? All of that information. So WhatsApp does collect that, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.800 we don't. We go out of our way to collect 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.839 as close to no data as possible, and we make 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:15.720 that open source. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.840 Is it really that revealing? The other data, the message data? 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.720 If someone can see that I wake up at six 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.479 in the morning and I send a lot of messages 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.400 at that time, and they might even know who I'm messaging, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.160 my mother, my colleagues, or people and other time zones, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.760 is that really so revealing of me? 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:43.040 Oh? It absolutely can be. Are you messaging your FBI 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.960 contact because you want to be a source. Are you 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:51.319 messaging a whistleblower attorney because you found corruption in your 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.320 workplace and want to report that. Are you messaging a 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.080 divorce lawyer? Are you messaging an oncologist? Yeah? 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.960 But what I mean is, again it's like WhatsApp, for example, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.320 could see, oh that other person is an oncologist, or 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.360 that other person is in law enforcement or is a source. 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.240 But again they can't see beyond that what the actual 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:12.760 content is that I'm saying. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.440 Well, no, not ye, assuming that's not on what's up 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.640 for business? However, I think we have to expand beyond 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:26.559 simply the application and look at what'sapp being owned by Meta, 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:32.040 the parent company Meta is a massive data collecting entity. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:37.080 Surveillance advertising is the heart of their business model. So okay, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.280 you message your oncologists. All right, let's join that data 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.200 with all of the other data we have in hand. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.520 We buy credit data from data brokers, we have Facebook data, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.200 we have Instagram data, and we have powerful AI models 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.680 that can find patterns and search across the. 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.760 State see ads for cancer drugs on Instagram? Is that 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.839 what suggesting let's feelings? Advertising is a very inflammatory way 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:04.360 to put it. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.360 Well, I mean it's a technical descriptor, right, It's targeted 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.240 advertising based on the collection of data that reveals or 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.440 purportedly reveals certain qualities of you and what you might like. 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:23.200 Let's take another example. You're messaging a whistleblower attorney and 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.720 it's very high, high risk, and you know the corruption 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.360 that you found is extreme, so they know, you know, okay, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.000 this is this is whistleblower aid An organization that helps 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.520 with that. Okay, it started messaging. Now okay, this is 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.040 the contact. Okay, well you know what could they do 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.040 with that? What could they reveal? Could that be subpoena? 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.600 Could that be revealed to your employer? The fundamental answer 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.160 is that, yes, this data is extremely revealing. It reveals 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:58.040 patterns about you. We could hypothesize, but we know already 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.720 that there's a woman who went to jail in the 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:07.680 US because Meta turned over DMS on Facebook messenger between 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.680 her and her daughter that showed her helping her daughter 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.199 access and deal with reproductive care in the state of Nebraska. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.000 Do you find it frustrating then, when you see people 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:24.920 not care about their privacy even like some people wouldn't 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.600 be even be aware, but people who are aware but 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.080 just think this is the price I pay for these 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:34.600 platforms being free at the point of use, or maybe 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.880 younger people especially who just think that there's nothing really 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:39.400 in their life that they would mind being in the 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:40.120 public domain. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.200 You know, I find that frustrating when the argument that 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.360 no one cares about privacy is leveraged by these firms 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.560 to justify what they're doing. It. Don't actually find it 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:57.400 frustrating when people who really, in my view, have little 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.920 choice say you know, hey, I can't do anything about this. 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.080 I'm going to delete that from my long list of 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.560 worries because I don't feel that I am empowered to 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.920 act on this. I actually don't believe that people don't 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.120 care about privacy, but I believe that the stakes are 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.920 very obscure, and we're all living in a world where 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.160 we have dishes to do, we have bills to pay, 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.360 we have things that are right on our doorstep to 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.400 deal with, and thinking about data flows and privacy legislation 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:46.040 is probably pretty far down on our list of concerns. 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.760 You had two big moments in the growth of Signal, 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:54.000 both of which I remember twenty thirteen when Edward Snowden 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:59.000 used it and trusted it to talk to journalists about 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:04.040 US and surveillance. And the second was Signal Gate last year, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.840 when a journalist was added to a supposedly highly classified 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:13.040 Trump administration discussion on military action. When the second happened, 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.320 what did you think, this is like a great advertisement 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.560 for Signal because it's secure enough for the US government, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.400 Or I thought, WHOA. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.080 What's going on this morning? This is this is an 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:30.400 interesting story. You know, the article hit my feed the 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.560 same time it hit anyone else's feed, and I think 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.760 I had to read it twice to really let it 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.560 sink in, because it read almost like a telenovela. What 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.520 I didn't anticipate after reading it initially was that Signal 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.280 would become a main character and then it would become 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:52.480 a story about Signal. And what I was primarily concerned 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.880 about is it you know, suddenly Signal was being reported on, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:02.360 spoken about by millions of people who weren't familiar with 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:07.320 the intricacies of encrypted messaging or the technology itself, and 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:12.920 I wanted to prevent misinformation that could hinder signal or 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.600 misinform people who you know, often need to choose signal 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:18.200 in life or death concept. 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.880 Cause this was essentially about human frailty, someone who shouldn't 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.720 have been added to that chat being added, And your 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.040 worry was that it would make it look like Signal 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:26.119 itself was insecure. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.200 Yeah, it would be framed as a problem with Signal 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.720 or a problem with privacy or you know. That was 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.639 a very volatile, very heightened news cycle, so how that 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.360 would turn out was not clear, But yes, I mean, 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.960 this was ultimately men's thumbs doing things that is not 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.399 something an application developer can take its. 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:46.639 Was it good for numbers? 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.560 It was, Yeah, it's turned out well for us. We 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.040 saw growth across the US, across the world, and we've 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.200 seen pretty steady growth since then. 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.200 Can I ask you, Meredith, how you reconcile yourself with 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.639 where your product is being used by people to do 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.400 harm to others and particularly the example of child sexual abuse? 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.560 Am I right in thinking that if p defiles abuses 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.400 are using Signal to circulate images of child sexual abuse, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:19.120 that can happen without them fearing that you will hand 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:20.480 over data to law enforcement. 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:25.840 We go out of our way to not be a 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.879 social media company, so we could pump our numbers fairly 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.160 easily if we added things like broadcast channels or features 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.720 that allowed you to find people with similar interests and 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:42.760 you meet strangers on Signal. But Signal has made a 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.320 very conscientious choice to stay in our narrow lane as 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.240 an interpersonal communications app, which means you have to encounter 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.760 the person you're talking to in some capacity that is 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.119 not a viral finder friend feed. 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.159 That's outside the app essentially. Yeah, But once you do 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.600 find that person, you can be sure that anything you 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.800 share with them is free. 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.639 That is outside. That is a sign promise. We are 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:15.080 open source. We are you know, people audit our code regularly. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.320 We have the open source community looking at our code. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:23.080 We cannot collect that data, we cannot turn that data 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.639 over and you know, look, we limit the features that 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.240 allow virality, We limit the features that allow mass distribution, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.159 and we do that very conscientiously. I also need to 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.640 make a fundamental point, that is, you know, it is 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:44.840 simply true that encryption either works for everyone or it 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.600 works for no one. There is no way to have 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.880 a golden key or a special back door or access 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:53.120 just for the good guys. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:55.800 And do you have a struggle with that knowing that 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.280 there will be people who are using it for the 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.080 most abusive possible images of children who are on signal? 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.440 Right now, are there moments where you find that hard 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.360 to reconcile or come to terms with yourself? 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:14.080 The fact of child sexual abuse is horrifying to me, absolutely, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.359 and I think we need to take that so seriously 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.399 as a society that needs to get much much better 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:26.000 with looking gnarly problems in the face and actually tackling them. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:31.679 But I also struggle with the persistent focus on privacy 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.919 as the purported barrier to solving these issues, when we 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:42.719 have most of the Epstein list walking around without consequences, 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.399 when we have so few mechanisms to actually help children 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.160 when they report a powerful figure in their community, when 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:56.280 we are defunding the actual law enforcement officers who take 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:01.920 this data, act on this data, move to prosecute the uncles, 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.480 the fathers, the pastors who are perpetrating this abuse. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.159 Can I give you the example in the UK where 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.359 many people would think, you have to use every tool 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.320 in the block, right, So you have to use the 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.119 leavers you're pointing to, and perhaps you have to use 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.080 the leavers in tech as well. So the UK government 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:26.080 is moving towards making it compulsory for tech companies to 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:31.800 ensure that children can't take or share nude images through 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.239 their platforms. Is that workable? Do you think? And if 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.840 the UK compelled that, what would it mean for your 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:39.760 presence here? 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.400 Well, I'll start by saying there's never been more data 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:47.080 accessible to law enforcement than there is now that were 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.679 law enforcement well funded, we're social services well funded, they 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.359 could act on and often don't, often delay, or often 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.520 simply don't have the capacity. So when we talk about 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.199 every tool in the toolbox. We need to recognize that 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.680 there are some tools that are not being picked up, 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.600 and there are some tools that seem an obsessive focus 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.400 of politicians who like to abstract these very difficult problems 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.400 into the technical domain and pretend there is one technical 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.840 fix that can apply to solve a problem that needs. 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:19.600 So this is one of many. What do you think 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:19.920 of it? 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:25.560 What do I think of mass scanning of devices that 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:27.959 would be age gated? You know, we put out a 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.639 statement Cure Starmer announced what seems to be a fairly 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:38.520 hasty proposal to implement nudity scanning as a mandatory feature 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:42.159 on all devices that would be sold or used in 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.080 the UK, and that you could only opt out of 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.159 this nudity scanning if you provided some sort of verification 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:52.040 that you were above a certain age threshold. Correct. There 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:57.240 are very few technical details on that system, but our 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.919 position and our position on the client side scanning debate 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:04.280 that circled the Online Safety Bill as well now act, 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:11.440 is that this constitutes very dangerous mass surveillance. That having 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.480 a scanning system on your device that is going to, 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.600 you know, purportedly detect nudity can easily be weaponized by 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.240 governments for political speech, for other content, and that we 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.520 don't understand the technical mechanism by which this would be implemented, 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:33.320 because my assumption is there is no specification for this, 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:36.439 but that you know, we would be looking at a 0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.520 system that would likely phone home, so that's sending that 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:45.639 data to governments, to tech companies and ultimately comprise a 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:51.879 mass surveillance system of permitted speech that would be implemented 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:56.640 across everyone's device and pose real threats to signal's ability 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:02.000 to provide the robust privacy guarantees that military is, governments Ukraine, 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.000 human rights workers, journalists, people around the world rely on 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:07.160 often for life or death. 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.360 With all of the big brains in tech, you really 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:13.959 don't think it's possible to refine the product in a 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.760 way that protects children and does the age verification and 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.679 the certain kinds of images without it having these, you know, 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.320 massive repercussions and implications that you're describing. 0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:28.119 Well. Part of being a big brain and tech, I 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:32.200 think is really understanding the nature and the limits of 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:36.320 what technology can do. And this isn't a question of 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:41.879 go think harder nerds, right, there are real limits to 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:43.800 what tech can and can't do. 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.240 And any texts coming up with new things all the time. 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.000 Their marketing departments are talking about it all the time. 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.160 But you know, if you look at the implementation layer, 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.639 often what you're looking at is sticky tape and twine 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.480 and a handful of legacy libraries that may or may 0:24:56.520 --> 0:25:00.439 not be suitable for purpose. The limits of your the 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:04.679 limits of the memory that's running on your hardware. You know, 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:10.520 these are fundamental material limitations and there is no technology 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:12.920 that has been shown to do this in a way 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:14.840 that is robust and safe. 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:18.239 Yeah, I also just wonder that whether how sustainable your 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:19.959 position is. I hear what you're saying, but it's not 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.600 only the UK government that's really concerned on this front. 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:26.600