WEBVTT - Unsung Heroes of the Court 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.800 Hello, everybody. It's your old pals Josh and Chuck, and 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:05.840 you will have the chance to see us live in 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:09.840 person for the first time in two years, Friday, January 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.959 twenty one in San Francisco. Right, Chuck, that's right, We're 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.160 returning to the stage at Sketch Fest. We're very excited 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.360 about it. We can't wait to see everyone. It is 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.200 a VACS only show. Bring your backscard. It is a 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.960 mask only show. Bring that mask. Can't wait to see 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.960 a third of your faces. That's right. You can get 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.760 tickets at s F sketch Fest dot com and again Friday, 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:36.000 January one, thirty pm Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco, California. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:40.640 We will see you there. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:49.839 a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.920 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuck, 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.360 Bryan and Jerry's over there, and this is stuff you 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:01.800 should know. Let's get to it, friends. Yeah, that's right. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.760 But hey, we have a bit of an announcement that 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.039 I'm excited about me too. We have added a new 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.000 writer to the stable. Uh Olivia Greshawn and this is 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.320 Libya's first effort and how we're doing it, you know, 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.400 because we've we've never really on boarded people because uh 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.680 David Edward colleagues of ours from the Housetuff worksdays. So 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:24.720 we thought, maybe, you know, we'd give someone an article, 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:27.600 not I mean sort of as a tryout, but just 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:29.679 to make sure that it was a good fit. And 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.479 Olivia killed it right out of the block. And she's 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.600 super talented as a writer and obviously very smart and 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.120 great at research, and like I know, both speaking for 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.479 both of us, we're just very excited to have Livia 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.440 on board. And uh yeah, so thanks Olivia, and welcome 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:51.000 to the to the family. Welcome aboard, Olivia. If you 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.360 went to high school with Livia, now would be a 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.640 good time to email her and say, hey, I didn't 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.760 know you were writing for stuff you should know. She'd 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.920 be like, oh that yeah. But this is a kind 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:02.720 of fun one I think as a first assignment to 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.080 for her because it's a little different, and that it 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:11.040 wasn't just one um one really deep dive on one 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.480 single thing. What she's gonna bomb that when we give 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.360 her that next one, but this is actually three things 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:23.640 in one. I had the idea of court stenography. But 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.560 then I was like, you know what, maybe, uh, that's 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.160 not quite enough. But I didn't want to do it 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.040 as a shorty, so I thought, let's just expand it 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:37.240 and talk about bailiff's uh court stenography and court sketch artists, 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:42.120 the triumvirate. Yeah, what we're calling the unsung heroes of 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.720 the courtroom because they're there. Uh, but you know, you're 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.400 not really ideally if they're doing their job right and 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.359 they're not a celebrity bailiff, you're not even gonna know 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.760 they're there. Yeah, that's pretty much true. They're kind of 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.000 meant to kind of blend into the background. Is the 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.959 judge who wants all the attention usually sometimes the lawyers, Okay, 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.520 bailiffs sometimes the lawyers, please, um, even the bailiff that's 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.320 super busy doing things. They're they're not showboating, you know 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.320 what I'm saying. No, they're not like twirling their gun 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.520 or anything or being like hurry up, this is boring. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.799 That would be bad. But bailiffs are the least exciting though, 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.840 so I think we should start with them. Okay, so bailiff's, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.800 it turns out, um find their heritage. It goes back 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.640 many many centuries actually, and they apparently originally started out 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:34.080 in the UK as kind of legal overseers of a 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.160 manor house for a feudal lord. Basically, yeah, kind of 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.280 property managers. They could collect rent today, would sometimes do 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.400 some accounting, they could collect fines. I think a little 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.240 later on is when they were brought into the court system, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.960 but it was still sort of doing like sheriffy things, right. 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.320 So that I saw, Chuck was the bailey in ants 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.600 where they were much more um involved in courts and 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.800 they actually have more power. They were more of a 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:11.240 government official than just like somebody who served a feudal lord. Okay, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.120 And that's where this it's it's weird. It's almost like 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:19.240 between medieval England and medieval France, between these two interpretations 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.760 of what a bailiff was, it got all mixed together, 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.520 shaken up, some stuff fell off and some stuff stick around. 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.960 And then you said, okay, now we have the bailiff 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.520 as we understand it today, right, which is you know, 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.120 kind of what we're gonna concentrate on is the the 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.159 good old fashioned American bailiff sitting in the quarter eat 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.640 eating apple pie and ready to jump in there and 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.080 crack someone's skull open, or hand the judge a key 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:49.840 piece of evidence or arrest somebody. Yeah, because a bailiff 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.200 today is as far as people in America and if 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:53.720 you're in the UK, you're like, oh, I know the 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.080 bailiff is. It's somebody who, uh there's a water bailiff 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.200 for there's an eviction bailiff who deals with travelers who 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.320 won't leave. Um, that's not really our understanding of bailiff 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.240 in the United States. In the United States, we think 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.239 of them almost exclusively as an officer of the court, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:14.080 who is, in most people's opinion, the the security for 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.839 the court. Like they were a gun, they were a badge. 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.320 They're very frequently like a sheriff's deputy or a federal 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.080 marshal or something like that. But apparently there's way more 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.039 to their job than just that I had no idea about. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.320 Like I really thought they were just there just stand 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.800 up and look menacing that was their their purpose. Uh. Yeah, 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:38.400 there's about eighteen thousand and change in the United States. Interestingly, 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:42.520 it's not a it's not an official title. Um, it's 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.720 just sort of, as Olivia says, like a colloquial term 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.640 for someone who does this job. Um, but you don't 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.640 get titled bailiff. They just they just call you bailiff. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.240 Like you can be a a part time bailiff in 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.000 a small town but also be a marshal or a 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.240 sheriff's deputy as your main job. Yeah, I think even 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.760 in in um in big cities that can be the 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.599 case as well. But um, but yeah, I think you're 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.159 you're you're You're definitely in a smaller area, more rural 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.200 area where there's say, less court activity, they're gonna be like, 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.000 this is not big enough of a job for you. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.840 You need to do more. You need to pull your 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.279 weight more than this. That's right, So go back to 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.440 be a veterinary assistant, all right, deliver the paper, Yeah, 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:27.320 do a little bailiffing, and don't forge the mayor's That's right. 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.120 So some of the other jobs that a bailiff has 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.000 that I wasn't aware of. You said something about them 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.279 handling evidence. If you are dealing with evidence in the court, 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.120 you do not just hand it to the judge. You 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.320 hand it to the bailiff, and the bailiff hands it 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.520 to the judge. That was a big one. I didn't realize, Yeah, 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.240 you present the murder weapon and you run it. The 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.400 judge with it, right, and then bailiff says, go ahead, 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.599 yeah exactly. Another one that I did know but didn't 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.760 realize I knew is that the bailiff is usually the 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.560 person who swears in a witness, making them swear an 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.120 oath on the Bible or the Constitution or something like that, 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.400 depending on whether you're in a red state or a 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.800 blue state, you know what I mean. Yeah, they're gonna 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.080 usher the jury in and out. They're gonna usher the 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.080 prisoners in and out. Uh. You know, a lot of 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.400 times with these big trials, they'll have you know, a 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.560 few bailiffs working the room. Uh. They tell people to 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.600 not smoke, They tell people, they screen people when they 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:20.880 come into the courtroom. They have to you know, you 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:22.800 can't yell out loud. You can't do that, not in 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.040 this court. Like the judge is gonna admonish them. But 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.120 then the judge is gonna look over at the bailiff, 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:28.400 and the bailiff is gonna say, I know what that 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.560 look means, right, Yeah, And I was gonna say good. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.520 Bailiff doesn't even need to wag their finger, like the 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.160 kemb motumbo. They can just shoot a look and you 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.720 know exactly what you're not supposed to be doing anymore. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.560 So Olivia did some research on on a website that 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.760 kind of broke down the you know, like what makes 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.760 for a good bailiff if you're looking to do this 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.240 as a job, And they classified it as highly social 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:56.280 with constant contact with others, including unpleasant and angry people 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.680 and physically aggressive people. So you're not just the muscle, 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:05.240 but you're definitely the muscle exactly. Um, which means you're 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.040 also providing security to not just to the courtroom, but 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.840 for like functions of the court. So like, if the 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.440 jury is sequestered, your job as bailiff is to be 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.480 one of the people guarding them. You're also kind of 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.880 in charge of guarding the jury against themselves, so like 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.080 if the jury is not supposed to be discussing the 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.880 case or at some point, you're supposed to be there 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.520 making sure that they don't discuss the case. Yeah that look, um, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.280 you're just basically making sure everybody's following the rules as 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.520 much as possible. That's right, And I thought this is 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.760 pretty interesting, kind of going back to the feudal lord 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.120 time bailiff still in the United States can be responsible 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.280 for evicting people, not just in England. I saw that 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.360 was Michigan, in Ohio and I think Washington State all 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.120 use bailiffs still, whereas other places use sheriff's deputies. But 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.280 then confusingly, in some places of bailiff is a sheriff's deputy. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:03.800 What do you paid for doing this? Grand? Easy? Not 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.720 quite h it depends state governments pay much more. There's 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.640 a median of almost sixty nine grand a year, which 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.839 is not bad if you're on a local level, maybe 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.079 forty two grand for being a bailiff. What I didn't understand, 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:18.680 and I didn't get a chance to look up, is 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.440 if that's on top of your salary as a marshal 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:29.160 or a a sheriff's deputy or something like that. Uh, 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.880 it wouldn't surprise me if you part time to bailiff. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.600 If it might be more of an hourly thing. But 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.120 I don't know. I'm just guessing there, um but not. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.199 You know, it's not bad scratch for a high school 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.320 graduate or to get your g e d. That's a 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.720 you know, it's a very good living. Uh. You can 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.800 have a degree in criminal Justice. I saw where and 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.840 we'll talk about celebrity bailiffs here in a second. But 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:56.160 Judge Judy's bailiff Petrie. Is it Petrie Hawkins Bird or 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.839 Petrie I have never watched the second of Judge Judy 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.240 Points of Pride in my life, so I don't know, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.680 but I'm going with Hawkins Bird. He had a he 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:13.840 had AH, he has a criminal justice degree, so he's legit, right. Um, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.240 So well, I mean, let's talk about celebrity bailiff's because 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.640 there's basically two that come to mind, and one of 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:24.280 them is Petrio Petrie Hawkins Bird, who was Judge Judy's 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:30.080 bailiff for twenty five seasons of Judge Judy. And I 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.120 read a like a really sad little article. So apparently 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:38.160 Judge Judy um ran her course on CBS, got canceled 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.199 and said I'm going over to I m B TV 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.760 where I am dB TV, which I didn't know was 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.160 the thing. No, I don't think anybody did. So everybody's 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.400 like a good, good move, Judge Judy. But she didn't 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.160 ask her bailiff of twenty five years to come to 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.600 her show and apparently didn't talk about it at all. 0:10:56.200 --> 0:11:00.079 And she had announced that she was doing this show 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.439 before the end of her twenty fifth season, so they 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.640 filmed the entire twenty fifth season together, and she just 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.200 never mentioned it that she was starting this other show 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.880 and he wasn't invited. So, um, his feelings were definitely hurt. 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.240 And I think he was a little bewildered and sad, 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.120 and I think felt a little betrayed by that. Yeah. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.520 I saw that too. I saw that the reason she 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.040 gave was that they can't afford your salary. And he said, well, 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:26.960 no one even talked to me about it. I probably 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.760 would have taken less, but it wasn't offered. Uh. And 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.839 he also said that in twenty five years, she never 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.559 like invited me to one celebrity shin dig or one 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.199 like social lunch. Right. Yeah, but he said, but I 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:39.920 wish her well, and you know, he didn't want to 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.360 drag her through the money. You know, he was a 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.600 class that He basically was just saying, like we were 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.160 professional colleagues, we weren't friends, and she was just like, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.439 I'm I'm just moving on with a new cast, and 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:51.480 it is what it is. Like I said, I never 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.600 watched it. What I did watch a lot as a 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.080 ten to twelve year old was the People's Court. Yeah. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.880 I don't know why I love that show as it 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.600 was on right after school and I watched me a 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.040 lot of Judge Wapner and a lot of Rusty Barrell 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.520 is bailiff and Rusty Barrell has the first celebrity bailiff 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.920 and by far the most prolific celebrity bailiff of all time. 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.160 He actually was a real bailiff in court for Los 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.559 Angeles County. So was a bird. Oh yeah, Bert, Yes, 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:25.719 you're right, you're right. He was from Manhattan. That's how 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.040 he knew judge duty was. They worked in an actual 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.600 court together before she had a TV show. Um Rusty 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.240 Barrell worked in in l A County courts. He actually 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.320 guarded the courtroom during the Manson trial. He was legit 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.559 um but he became the celebrity bailiff on divorce Court 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.320 first from nineteen fifty seven and nineteen sixty nine. And 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.200 it just so happened that he worked with um Uh, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.319 a lawyer by the last name of Wapner during that 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.960 time on that show, and that lawyer Wapner would go 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.480 on to have a son named Judge Joseph A. Wapner 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:03.360 who would become the People's Court judge. Right, that's right. Uh. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.200 And they worked together on People's Court and then uh 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:11.000 judge Wattner's Animal Court. And he said, most prolific. I 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.839 was doing the math real quick because Bird was in 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.160 there twenty five years, but it looks like twenty six 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.880 years for Rusty. Oh wow, it was twelve on divorce Court, 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.920 twelve on People's Court. And the boy that Animal Court 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.280 that pushed him over the edge was that the shark 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.120 that got jump. I don't know. I mean it was 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.040 two years. I bet it wasn't very good, but they 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.000 count as two more years, so one more year than Bird. Uh. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.800 And apparently Wattner at one point an interview said when 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.200 they were originally doing the People's Court casting that the 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.720 executive producer said that he wanted to sexy, give me 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.200 a sexy girl as the bailiff, but Wattner was like, no, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.920 let's let's use this real bailiff my dad worked with. 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.080 And he did, and the rest is history. Should we 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.760 take a break, we should. We're gonna take a break, everybody, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.360 and not keep you in suspense. We're gonna come back 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:30.280 and talk about court reporters. Alright, Chuck, So core reporters 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.760 are um, you said that bailiffs were the least interesting, 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.840 So core reporters are the most interesting to you. I 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.920 think court reporters and sketch artists are definitely interesting to me. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.800 But boy, I love this court reporting section. I thought 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.960 it was super interesting. Uh, the machinery and the history, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.640 and that this the fact that they are play a 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.960 real civic duty, uh in recording history. And that's one 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.480 of the first points Olivia makes is in uh Neo 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:06.280 Babylonian Mesopotamia, they kept legal records on clay tablets, and 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.360 these weren't just like, uh so we'll know what happened 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.880 in this court case. It was, but it was recording history, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.560 like it was recording precedent and all that stuff was 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.040 really important from the beginning. Yeah, for for the Mesopotamians, 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.880 the Babylonians, they weren't saying, like, we gotta preserve this 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.280 this amazing verdict about this land dispute for posterity, Like 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.840 this was how like on this clay tablet was how 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.520 somebody could prove that no, my family owns this land. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:38.680 It was decided back in five b c UM and 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.400 my family owns this land. Look at the cunea formed 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.120 tablet um, we get a hand truck and I'll be 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.600 right back right exactly. But the the it just turned 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.280 out that that they kept such meticulous records and they survived, 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.280 and we figured out how to read Kennea formed that um. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.240 That that we learned a lot about the Babylonians and 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.480 how they dealt with law and agricult sure um and 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.720 land disputes and traditions and customs and all that thanks 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.960 to writing that down through legal documents. And we actually 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.440 understand a lot about a lot of things based on 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.000 court documents. Like do you remember when we were talking 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.320 about the Salem witch trials in that episode and we 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.440 were saying, like, we we understand it very much because 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.920 it was extensively documented, but it was documented through court cases, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.760 and there's just certain ways that you preserve facts and 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.960 information when you're documenting it through a court record, that's 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.240 just not the same. It doesn't give you the full picture, 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.920 um compared to you know, rounding out with journals and 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.080 diaries and stuff like that. But it's still way way 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.080 better than nothing. But what struck me is weird, Chuck, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.280 is that the idea of recording stuff like that, which 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.600 seems like, of course you're going to do that. It 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.200 got lost for a while. Yeah. Here in the United 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.760 States during the colonial period, they were like you mentioned 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.000 diaries and stuff. That's kind of what they relied on was, 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.120 you know, whenever a lawyer or a judge might happen 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.520 to keep personal notebooks about stuff, they would use that. 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.560 But they didn't officially decree like, this is something we 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.959 need to do. I think it was the early eighteen 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.199 hundreds that they said, no, this is a problem when 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.359 we can't just rely on whoever happens to want to 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.119 take notes and save them. Uh, judges, you need to 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.359 start writing your verdicts down on paper at least and 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.080 not just say them out loud. And the judges are like, uh, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.720 Probably because judges didn't really feel like doing that is 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.920 gave rise to actual court reporting. Yeah, think about this, chuck. 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.920 You know how like emphatic like older men are when 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.800 they're just they just know they're right. Like, think about 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.200 the cluster that would arise when some judge just knew 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.760 he remembered a verdict correctly and those totally wrong. Like 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.720 that was the state of the early American court system 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.520 before they finally said, like the beginning of the nineteenth century, 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:56.480 when they finally said, no, we we need to write 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:58.800 this down, like if you put yourself in that situation, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.600 I can't imagine how many terrible outcomes there were from that. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.399 Oh yeah, I think it was an eighteen o four one, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:10.000 Massachusetts finally enacted a law that said the governor has 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.760 the authority to appoint someone quote learned in the law 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.000 to obtain true and authentic reports of the of the decisions. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.040 In eighteen seventeen was when Congress finally passed a law 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.080 saying the Supreme Court at the very least has to 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.080 have an official court reporter. Said yeah, yeah, Supreme Court, 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.480 you get on that too. It's something I didn't realize. 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.080 I thought it was pretty interesting, is that, Um, before 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.840 that people did document court reports, is particularly of the 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.080 Supreme Court, but they were just like freelance mos who 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.560 showed up and sat there and documented it themselves to 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.600 turn around and sell to whoever wanted that that kind 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.679 of information. So it was like, um, it was it 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.840 was willy nilly, I think is the term for that. 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.120 And you might ask who would want to buy that? Uh, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:19:03.280 you know, law schools, attorneys, bobbies, right, constant bailiffs, bailiff's 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.400 Bailey's So finally, finally, at the end of the nineteenth century, 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.680 everybody's like, all right, we're on board with this idea 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.880 about actually recording the decisions of the court. And let's 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.280 go a little further. Let's let's record every single minute detail, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.680 down to gestures, down to somebody sitting quietly when asked 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:28.200 a question. And um, that's where court reporting was actually born, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.959 was in the end of the nineteenth century. Yeah, when 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.560 the National Shorthand Reporters Association was formed. And I think 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:37.879 this is one of the reasons that spoke to me 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.440 a little bit because I took a course in high 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:47.120 school called speed writing. Oh well, there we go, speedwriting, type, typing, 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.840 and um, I can't remember the third thing. It's one 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:51.720 of those classes that that you know that you spent 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:58.280 time doing three different things. Oh a checkbook that was 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.359 in there. I don't that was that class anyway. Speed 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.920 writing was, um no, but I did take kommack. Um 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:11.240 I wasn't. It wasn't official shorthand as we're about to 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.640 talk about. It was. It was a kind of shorthand though, 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.760 um and the funniest thing I remember from that class. 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:21.119 I don't know. I don't think I should say her 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.880 name is my old friend. She would probably think it's funny, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:26.760 it wouldn't care, but I won't say her name. But 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:28.400 she sat next to me in class, and we used 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.240 always cut up and she did not learn UM. She 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.600 learned the shorthand, but not such that she could take 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.560 the test, which was basically a teacher would just dictate things. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.960 You would write it in shorthand and then transcribe it 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.200 back in long form UM. But she was really really 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.600 fast at writing, so she would write it all in 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.879 regular longhand and then take the time to transcribe it 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.159 to shorthand and then turn them in reverse order. And 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.840 now you got busted though, And that was technically cheating UM. 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:07.480 And always felt bad for my unnamed friend. Was really fast, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.280 didn't account for something. Yeah, I mean it was she 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.640 should have gotten an A for effort at least. But yeah, 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.480 if she went back and transcribed it using a book, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.680 that's that's cheating chuck a book. Oh well, then yes 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.280 she should have gotten an A. She just needed more time. 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.119 It's like if you were in a German class and 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.439 you had to just write down in English what they 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.880 were saying in German, writing the German first and then 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.440 taking your time to transcribe it. Yah know, I got 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.879 what you're saying for sure, And I dispute the teacher 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:41.160 having a book involved. But shorthand is fascinating to me. 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.440 And as a very long history going back to Cicero's 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:51.000 enslaved servant, Marcus Julius Tiro in six b c E 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.560 developed a Latin shorthand became known as tyroni in notes, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.879 and these were symbols. They were like four thousand symbols, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.520 and they you know, it was basically the earliest version 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:05.919 of shorthand. Yeah, and apparently medieval monks got ahold of 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.480 it and turned it into thirteen thousand symbols. Of course 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.920 they did so, um, yeah, because they had a lot 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.119 of time on their hand time. Um. And there's like 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:19.520 a real value in developing shorthand. So there was all 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.080 sorts of shorthand systems that were developed over the time. 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.040 But as far as court reporting goes, it wasn't until 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.520 a guy named John Robert Greg got into the mix 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.199 in the late nineteenth century, UM, and he developed a 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:38.720 Greg method of shorthand writing that was so useful and 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.159 so popular he actually opened schools around the country. I 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.000 saw him described as a tycoon where basically, if you 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.840 were a secretary, if you were involved in anything that 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:55.000 that that involved transcribing or taking dictation or any job 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.760 like that, you basically could not get the job until 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.920