1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Previously on Happy Face. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 2: I got a phone call and this guy says, I 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 2: know where you're at. You're in the kitchen and you're 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: wearing this. Keith states that he hired somewhat. 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 3: My mom had just said that her and my dad 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 3: were separating, which I did believe. 7 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to keep like you guys's baby pictures, and 8 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: he chucked out all up. 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 4: He wasn't exactly a faithful lust. 10 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely not tell me about your wedding day. They 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: were doing pictures of me, and I guess he was 12 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: outside kissing the bridesmaids, my best friend. 13 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 5: After the second murder, the Happy Face killer says he 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 5: realized he liked what he was doing. 15 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 6: This triggered something in me. He said, it was getting easy, 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 6: real easy. 17 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: The first year with Melissa had went through two fires. 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 6: Keith Tait. 19 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: The vent I had a little toilet cover and it 20 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: caught it on fire, and the whole bathroom was in golf. 21 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: Then shortly after that we go camping and then I 22 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: heard a bear. He cleaned fish in front of the 23 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: cabin and he was sleeping in the car. 24 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 4: He started killing in nineteen ninety and he stopped in 25 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 4: ninety five. 26 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 3: The five years is not an isolated event. 27 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 7: It was an escalation. 28 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I think he was groomed to be who he is. 29 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 7: In the vite, in the fight with the Sun. 30 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 8: I don't know, shine o. 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 9: Shiver oh. 32 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: Through. 33 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 4: One of the biggest questions you're faced with when looking 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 4: at the lives of serial killers is where did it 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 4: all begin? What makes a person become a killer? Is 36 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 4: it something that's passed down through generations or is there 37 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 4: a single moment that can turn someone from a normal 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 4: human being with a job and a family into a monster? 39 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 4: Are serial killers made or are they born? I'm Lauren 40 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 4: brad Pacheco, and this is happy face. 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 8: I remember the first time I saw my father in prison, 42 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 8: and the first thing he said to me was Missy, 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 8: do you want. 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 9: To know why? 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 7: And at the time, I couldn't. 46 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 8: I couldn't handle the answer, and honestly, I thought whatever 47 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 8: he was going to tell me would be just him 48 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 8: trying to justify what he's done or to minimize what 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 8: he's done, and so I didn't want some pacifying answer. 50 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 7: So I said no. 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 8: And I regretted that moment for so many years now 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 8: because I want to know why. 53 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 9: Why about my father had. 54 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 8: An interest in crime was because he wanted to become 55 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 8: a police officer in Canada. He wanted to be a Mountie, 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 8: and he was declined from becoming that because of an 57 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 8: injury he sustained in high school. What he told me 58 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 8: is that in gym class, they do this rope exercise 59 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 8: where they climb the rope to the ceiling of the gym, 60 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 8: which is quite high. 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: They say, now when they interview killers, people who've been 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: perpetually in jail, they have found that a large percentage 63 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: of them had damaged their frontal lobe before they were 64 00:03:53,800 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: twenty two, changes their whole personality. Keith fell in high school. 65 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: I believe it was twenty five feet. He was on 66 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: the very top of the rope and I let go. 67 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: He fell to the gym floor. 68 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 8: He sustained a head injury and broke his hip, and 69 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 8: this impacted his ability to join the force. I don't 70 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 8: believe my dad ever got over that. It was something 71 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 8: that he carried on in conversations, that there was a 72 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 8: sense of resentment that he was now a long haul 73 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 8: truck driver when he could have. 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 7: Had this other life that was just out of his grasp. 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 4: But as Melissa's mom, Rose told us, She really thinks 76 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 4: that Keith was conditioned to be a killer, groomed to 77 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 4: be one by his own father less, and that's something 78 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 4: we felt we had to explore. 79 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: From I The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olsen, 80 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: The Jesperson children grew up in a rural atmosphere, first 81 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: in Chiliwack, British Columbia, later two hundred and fifty miles 82 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: south in Sale, Washington, an apple scented orchard community of 83 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: ten thousand. Keith's perpetually mobile father built the family's Chiliwack 84 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: home on land as ancestors homestead, and in nineteen oh 85 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: nine moved the house from the city to a pastoral 86 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: area outside of town. Cleared five acres with a borrowed bulldozer, 87 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: built a barn with a loft for his children and 88 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: a wooden bridge big enough for the family horses to 89 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: cross the little creek that rose from the springs above 90 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: the property line. Later, he damned the creek and built 91 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: a water wheel to trap chinook and silver salmon as 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: they swam up from the Vetter River to spawn. 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 4: If you read jack Olson's biography of Keith, the way 94 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 4: in which he describes Keith's father less It's very clear 95 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 4: that Less was a very resourceful, ingenious man, the kind 96 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 4: of guy who could build a barn from scratch or 97 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 4: create a water wheel to catch fish for dinner. But 98 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 4: what also is clear is that he could be a monster. 99 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: We decided that we didn't want to live near your 100 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: grandfather anymore. 101 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 6: Why he was horrible. I hated him. Really. Yeah. 102 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: He would without warning, open up the door to our 103 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: house and he goes, we just sleep. 104 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 8: With me to you, to me, I had no idea. 105 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, your father in law, Yes, your father in law 106 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: hit on you, yes, more than once, Like well. 107 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would be I'd be sitting right next to 108 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: Keith and he would come and he'd pinch me, and 109 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: I was thinking, Keith, what are you doing? And then 110 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 2: I see his hand and they start giggling. I don't 111 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: know who I was more angry with Keith for not 112 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: protecting me or for Less for doing it. 113 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 4: So you think Keith knew his father would make passes 114 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: at you. 115 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: Well he was right there, and they thought it was 116 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: a joke. And the only time I was saved is 117 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: when I was pregnant with Melissa. Then I was off 118 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: the tables. 119 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 4: Keith's attitude towards marriage very much mirrored the relationship he 120 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 4: saw unfold between his own father and his mother, Gladys. 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 7: I mean, I. 122 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: Knew that last beat the kids a lot. I don't 123 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: know if he beat Gladys or not, but I know 124 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: that there was problems between Gladys and least because when 125 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: we were for married, Keith goes, I have to go 126 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: down to the house and they go okay. So he 127 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: went down to the house, came back and he was 128 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: really visibly upset. I said, so what went on? He goes, yeah, 129 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: mom and dad got in a fight, and I guess 130 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: dad cut every telephone wire in the house. 131 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 7: Was less a drinker. 132 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: He was a heavy alcoholic. 133 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 4: One of the few people that Keith opened up to 134 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 4: about his childhood was a true crime author and psychologist 135 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 4: named al Carlyle. Melissa met him almost completely by chance. 136 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 8: I was invited to go to crime con and this 137 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 8: gentleman approached the booth and he said, hey, you know, 138 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 8: I've got this author who's working on serial killers. And 139 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 8: he said, well, his name is al Carlyle and he 140 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 8: studied Ted Bundy and he's working on a chapter of 141 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 8: the serial killer named Keith Hunter. Jesperson so when I 142 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 8: got that calm, I called him immediately, and I loved 143 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 8: his perspective. He had stories that I've never even heard 144 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 8: of before about the man I thought I knew. 145 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, the night before we were supposed to interview Al Carlyle, 146 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 4: he passed away in his sleep, and it was heartbreaking. 147 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 4: He was such a fascinating, brilliant man. But we were 148 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 4: able to reach out to Stephen Booth, his publisher, and 149 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 4: also to Carrie Ann Keller, who was his researcher and 150 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 4: writing assistant. 151 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 10: Keith felt that I had a real mission to understand 152 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 10: bylent behavior, so that was their common ground. They each 153 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 10: felt the other could provide valuable information. Once Al was 154 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 10: up there interviewing Keith, and Keith said to Al, I 155 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 10: could reach over this table and snap your head before 156 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 10: the guard would even notice. I don't because I don't 157 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 10: want to lose my privileges. He wasn't threatening Al, he 158 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 10: was just making a point about his size. Okay, So 159 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 10: that's how you have to understand how Keith could talk. 160 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 7: So it's like. 161 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 4: Being in a room with a loaded gun. 162 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 9: Oh yeah, for sure, definitely you feel it. 163 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 11: My name is Stephen Booth. I have been the publisher 164 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 11: at Genius Book Publishing since twenty eleven. Keith Jefferson was 165 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 11: in a situation where he had a very manipulative father. 166 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 11: The father, by the way, freaks me out. He had 167 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 11: a very manipulative father. He was required to be obedient 168 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 11: at all times, he was given conflicting information about what 169 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 11: ethical standards were and how to behave, and he was 170 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 11: isolated from his family, even by his own siblings. 171 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 4: What's incredible, though, is that Al Carlisle's family gave us 172 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 4: the tapes of his interviews with Jessperson in prison, and 173 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 4: you can hear the intimate details and how much Keith 174 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 4: opened up to him. 175 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 6: Brad the older, Brad was a younger. Bruce is the oldest. 176 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 6: When did they start calling you? Igor? 177 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 5: Was my junior high I was in eighth grade, and 178 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 5: then Brad was in the seventh grade and he wanted 179 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 5: to be big with his friends, so he started calling 180 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 5: me Igor because of the Monster movies, and I figured 181 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 5: out was his psidekick. I was big physically at the 182 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 5: time and slow slow physically. 183 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 6: Well, I was. I was. I was big, and I 184 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 6: was not very well co ordinated. 185 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 5: No, not really intelligent. I'm very intelligent. But I just 186 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 5: didn't adapt myself to it. 187 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 11: Keith was made to pay his own room and board 188 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 11: when the other kids were not made to do that, 189 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 11: so he would be an example to the other siblings. 190 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 4: And this was when he was twelve thirteen years old, precisely. 191 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 11: Yes, you know, the father forced him to work. He 192 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 11: got paid a pittance. Most of that money went back 193 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 11: to roomin to board, and whatever was left over the 194 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 11: father basically took out of the bank account. And whenever 195 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 11: he got into trouble, everybody pointed the finger at Keith. 196 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 11: His siblings did, his father did, his friends did. He 197 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 11: was isolated, harboring a lot of resentment, violent rage like 198 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 11: resentment towards his father. And I mean, what was that 199 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 11: story about him, the boy when he was about eight 200 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 11: years old who kept blaming him for things and then 201 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 11: Keith let loose and tried to beat him to death. 202 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 6: Oh, I have a memory that kid young. 203 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was just he was every time he would say, 204 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 5: well Keith did this, and Keith did that, and I'd 205 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 5: get the belt and I'd get nailed and I'd get 206 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 5: punished and so forth, he'd sit back laugh hah ha ha, 207 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 5: this is funny. And one day, I caught him off 208 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 5: the back door when he was ready to scream Keith 209 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 5: did it and I was beating him, damn or to death. 210 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 6: You're old when I was about eight years old at 211 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 6: the time, when you were eating the kid, did you 212 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 6: feel you're in control? Did you just lose it with 213 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 6: his song? I just lost it. I didn't. I didn't. 214 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 5: I don't think they had anything to do with control, 215 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 5: and just had paybacks a bitch, you know. And I 216 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 5: just grabbed him and just started wailing him. Of course 217 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 5: I didn't know him to stop. I was going to 218 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 5: beat him to death. 219 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 11: He was put in a position where he could not win, 220 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 11: and he could not take his rage out on his 221 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 11: father because father I had have dialed in. So he 222 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 11: took his rage out on the closest person to him, 223 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 11: who was embarrassing him. 224 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 6: You know, I sure taught him elast him. So even 225 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 6: by the age of eight, there was a lot of anger. 226 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, there was anger there angers, Yeah you do me wrong. 227 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 6: It was like, yeah, I was you doing me wrong? 228 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 6: I was I was gonna. I was bounding and determined 229 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 6: to get even from I. 230 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: The creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsen, sometimes 231 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: the Jesperson males proud the creek banks for muskrats. I'd 232 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: yank one out of the water by its tail and 233 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: throw it up on the bank. Then Dad or one 234 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: of my brothers would club it to death. We also 235 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: killed gophers, hundreds of them. They were a farm pest 236 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: and nobody missed them. Dad has films of us boys 237 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: blood splattered from k killing gophers and other varmints. It 238 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: was our form of recreation. After we grew up and 239 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: got married, Dad liked to show the film to our wives. 240 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: He would joke watch my natural born killers as they 241 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: dispense of their victims. You don't want to run into 242 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: them in a dark alley. 243 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 7: Based on their jail health interview. What did al make 244 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 7: of my dad's childhood. 245 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 10: He was fascinated by his passivity, you know, Keith's passivity 246 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 10: as a child. This dichonomous behavior of a shy and 247 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 10: passive child who becomes fully the opposite as an adult 248 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 10: was very interesting to him. He understood how Keith was 249 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 10: bitter about the control his father had over him. He 250 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 10: knew he wasn't able to stand up to his father's dominance, 251 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 10: but Keith accepted it, you know, as his lot. 252 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 9: In life and he kind of liked it because well 253 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 9: he did full trapped by his father. He was afraid 254 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 9: of his father. He also had a strong desire to 255 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 9: have his dad love him. 256 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 8: I feared my grandfather like even though he never hit me, 257 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 8: I was terrified at my grandfather being angry with me 258 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 8: because I don't know what he would do. 259 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 7: Maybe even know about the motorcycle story. 260 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 9: I do. I do. So he has this motorcycle, Keith 261 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 9: that he saved up money for a brand new motorcycle. Okay, 262 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 9: it's not a piece of junk like from cobble together Junkyard. 263 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 5: And I had bought it in a seven p fifty 264 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 5: hand a motorcycle. It was a seventy four brand new 265 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: gold Mati orange, you know, like a bright orange colored. 266 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 6: It was a beautiful bike. 267 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 5: And it came hunting season and I was working for 268 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 5: Dad at the time, and Brad and I wanted to 269 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 5: go hunting over on the coast by Klama. Of course, 270 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 5: we need a four wheel drive and I was gonna 271 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 5: use the company pickup. Well, I said, Dad, can I 272 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 5: use the company pick up? And he says, shirkey, But 273 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 5: one stipulation and I knew was coming, and he says, 274 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 5: you leave me your motorcycle so I could go on 275 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 5: a motorcycle ride with that. And I said no, because 276 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 5: you're gonna get drunk and you're gonna get on it 277 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 5: and you're gonna wreck the bike. 278 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 6: Oh I am gonna drink. And I said no, I 279 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 6: false promises. 280 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 5: You know, well, in order for me to get to 281 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: pick up, I had to give him the bike. So 282 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 5: I get to pick up, and I load up and 283 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 5: the Honting supplies and we take off over the Klama. 284 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 5: We have a hell of a nice time all weekend long. 285 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 5: I got in the morning on Monday morning, I go 286 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 5: back to the dump truck in the backyard. We have 287 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 5: a swimming pool to dig that day. And I walked 288 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 5: through the back door and I said, where the hell's 289 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 5: dad at? And we got this swimming pool to dig 290 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 5: over here, And Mom said, oh, you don't know. 291 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 6: He says he wrecked the motorcycle. He's in the hospital. 292 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 4: And I guess Keith was on an architect trip or something. 293 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 4: What happened when he came back, do you know? 294 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 2: Well, then Keith had to run the businesses. He had 295 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: to do everything. He was the sole provider for two families. 296 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: His dad and mine. 297 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 6: Ours, and so I call up the company there. 298 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 5: The people that were going to do the swimming pool 299 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 5: told me I wouldn't be there. My dad's in the 300 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 5: hospital and I have to go take care of business. 301 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 5: So I go to Sainte's hospital and there he his 302 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 5: dad up there on the floor and he's they operated 303 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 5: on reports blane and his face is all bandaged up, 304 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 5: kind of nose and down are off. 305 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: He hit a bob wire and I cut up his intestines. 306 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: He has a big stars. He had a big scar 307 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: in his face. 308 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 5: I get up there and he's like looked at me, 309 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 5: and I said, well, what happened? 310 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 6: Daddy? 311 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 12: You gotta you gotta get back that motorcycle you got. 312 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 12: You gotta take care of all the evidence. Keith, you 313 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 12: gotta take care of it. I said, what what do 314 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 12: you mean to take care of us? Go get rid 315 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 12: of it. So you've been drinkingnoyment? He said, just take 316 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 12: care of it way you said, we. 317 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 5: Don't want that insurance company knowing that I was riding drunk. 318 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 6: Right. 319 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: Did Keith drink No? 320 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 7: No, it was absolutely like no alcohol. He was the 321 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 7: only one out of all my aunts and uncle said, 322 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 7: didn't drink at all. I I grew up and you 323 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 7: didn't drink either. You and dad didn't drink at all. 324 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: And I'm growing up no, because my father was an 325 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: alcoholic too, and so you either choose it or you don't. 326 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: And I chose not to. And that's your dad chose 327 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 2: not to drink either. 328 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 5: But I get up to my dad and I sat 329 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 5: up to the hospital and my mom's there, and I said, well, Dad, 330 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 5: I got rid of all that. And he said, good good, 331 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 5: good goodness. Now, why were you drinking on my motor 332 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 5: my motorcycle? Says I wasn't drinking on your motorcycle. Yes, 333 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 5: your word, he says, prove it. You can't prove it. 334 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 5: So you got rid of all the evidence, so you 335 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 5: can't prove shit. 336 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 8: I'll give you your Cota Molliqua for your lotter olive. 337 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 6: You drunk of all up? 338 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 5: Whoa, And that's basically how it all lands up, says 339 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 5: everything is. 340 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 6: I was covering up everything. I said. I was like 341 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 6: eighteen at that time. 342 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 5: Yeah. 343 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 4: Less basically made Keith go hide the evidence so that 344 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: he could get insurance money that it didn't know. 345 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: It wouldn't surprise me because LUs was very famous for that. 346 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 5: His business ethics of that was that the boss was 347 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 5: always right and the employees were always wrong, which. 348 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 6: Man the employee took the heat. Yes, it did, and 349 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 6: I'm just getting to that. 350 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 5: His idea was that if there's any problems that occurred 351 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 5: on the job, that I would get shit on and 352 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 5: he would get the glory of saying I'm sorry or 353 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 5: whatever like that. I'll it'll never happen, you know, I'll 354 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 5: just make sure my son never does this stuff again. 355 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 6: So I was like the blueted an idiot, you know, 356 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 6: and doing all that. 357 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 5: And I kind of laughed one day because my dad 358 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 5: was on the bacco when he was digging next to 359 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 5: his house and he put the bucket right through the 360 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 5: side of the house. He has no depth perception. That 361 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 5: was one of his problems. That he stuck the bucket 362 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 5: to the side of the house. And the people were 363 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 5: in the house and they were looking out and they 364 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 5: saw him running thebacco right and they come running out 365 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 5: of the corner. But by the time they got around 366 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 5: to who the bacca was, he'd already stop machine. 367 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 6: And he'd gotten me on that. And they were looking at. 368 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 5: Him and looked at me, and I said, I did it, 369 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 5: and they were like, why do you put up with that? 370 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 6: I said, that's the way it is. I am the 371 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 6: ship on. 372 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: Less told him this is the way what you're going 373 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: to say in court, and Keith did in order for 374 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: them to win a court case for the motilepart line 375 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 2: or absolutely did it. 376 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 4: Seems like he wasn't the most honest man. 377 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 2: No, no, he wasn't. He swindled people. I called him 378 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: a swindler, and he had a really good lawyer. 379 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 11: My understanding is that, how do I say this? Left 380 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 11: to his own devices, Keith would have been a pretty 381 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 11: happy kid. He described his childhood as being fairly happy, 382 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 11: and he would have probably not Harvard as much rage. 383 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 11: He probably would have been somebody who got along with people. 384 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 11: But from al to me, from Keith to tell to me, 385 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 11: his childhood was more a matter of he was the target. 386 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 11: He was the scapegoat, for lack of a better word, 387 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 11: of everybody's need to avoid Less's rage or manipulation or 388 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 11: whatever it is. He had nobody backing him up, and 389 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 11: he didn't even know how to back himself up, so 390 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 11: all he could do was absorb all this negative energy 391 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 11: about everything that was going on. 392 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: There's an interview with your dad about your grandfather made 393 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 4: him go visit a friend of your grandfather's who was dying, 394 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 4: and your dad was really resentful because he had to 395 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 4: go sit and make conversations with his dying man, because 396 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: your grandfather said nobody should have to die alone. And 397 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 4: your dad was talking to the guy before he realized 398 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 4: he had already passed away. 399 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 3: I had no idea about this. 400 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: Dad still treated me like the run of the litter, 401 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: Daddy's little helper. He dragged me to a nursing home 402 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: to visit one of his hunting buddies. He said, my 403 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: friend Smitty's not doing too good with his lung cancer. Keith, 404 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm going out in the hall talk to him, son. 405 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: Nobody likes to die alone. I'm sitting there listening to 406 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: the rattley breathing, watching his life draane out. After a while, 407 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: Smitty goes limp. I'm holding his hand for ten or 408 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes before I realize he's dead. On our way home, 409 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: he said, Keith, someday you'll thank me for putting you 410 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: through this. I never feared a dead person after that. 411 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: When I was killing, I'd talked to my victims as 412 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: if they were still alive. It was something to thank 413 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: to add for. 414 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 3: My dad was really good about telling his story, his narrative, 415 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 3: and he'd be everybody to the punch and it would 416 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 3: just when his story came forward, people always judged everybody 417 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: else's tail against what he had to say. My dad 418 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 3: had ownership, like the truth was his. He owned the 419 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 3: truth and it was not debatable. His air of certainty 420 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 3: definitely played a part in other people believing in him 421 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 3: and why probably his victims believed in him and trusted 422 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 3: him over their own voices. He exuded confidence and certainty 423 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: and whatever he said was truth and you can rely 424 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 3: upon it and you could trust it, but. 425 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 9: Not really. 426 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 11: May I ask a question, Yes, why is it that 427 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 11: when Rose left Keith and took the kids, she went 428 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 11: over to Lesson's house? 429 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 9: What do you mean? 430 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 11: The story that I got was when she left and 431 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 11: emptied the house, the first place she went was Less's house. 432 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 11: That is a direct quote from the history that I 433 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 11: was reading this morning, and I can share that with 434 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 11: you if you need me to. 435 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 4: From from Keith. 436 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 11: Yeah, Oh, that's that's that's the story that I got. 437 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 11: It could be wrong, but that's the story that that 438 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 11: AL got. 439 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 7: That's interesting that he would say that I was there 440 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 7: that didn't happen. Okay, I was there the day that 441 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 7: they left. That would make sense that my dad was 442 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,239 Speaker 7: shared that's story to shame my mother and put her 443 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 7: into that frame of light. 444 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 11: Oh. 445 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 7: I actually remember play by play, minute by minute of 446 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 7: that day that they separated, And there was not one 447 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 7: single time that we went over to my grandparents' house. 448 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 7: Matter of fact, they were gone, and there was not 449 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 7: anything that we cleaned out in that property because we 450 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 7: left in the four Topaz, which is just a little 451 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 7: family sedan. We didn't take a single item from that 452 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 7: house other than the clothes that we needed for like 453 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 7: a couple days. Wow. 454 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 11: So that is not the story that I got from 455 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 11: al from Keith. Yeah, that's fascinating. 456 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 7: So that's interesting that he came up with this this 457 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 7: new story, a new spin. 458 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 6: What happened? 459 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 11: Well, I'm glad I asked, because honestly, I bought the 460 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 11: story that Keith gave out. You know, I mean, it 461 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 11: seemed reasonable. She left, she took everything, whether she went 462 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 11: over to the father's house. Some of this is fantasy. 463 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 11: Some of this is making Keith feel better about himself. 464 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 11: So how truthful, was he without? 465 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 5: Now it's all right to lie, it's all right to 466 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 5: be gnising and so forth. 467 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 6: You can. You can do that because you're an adult, 468 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 6: you know you can do that. But when you're a kid, 469 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 6: you can't lie to your parents. 470 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 13: You know, because you know he called, you know he 471 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 13: would call on hokus And I remember you comforting me 472 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 13: after one particular phone call where we were living on 473 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 13: a street over here. 474 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 7: And he called and said he was suicidal because of 475 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 7: having paiy child support. And then he because it was 476 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 7: such a burden for him, and it made me upset 477 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 7: because I felt blamed. He's blaming me for having a 478 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 7: pay child support. But then it went another step further. 479 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 7: He said, you know, I drove past the prison today, 480 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 7: the organ State Prison. I just like chewed my horn 481 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 7: and said I'll be there soon, as we said in 482 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 7: the call. But I remember crying and going to my 483 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 7: room and you came after me. You're like, what's wrong, Melissa, 484 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 7: And I said, you know, Doug said he's going to 485 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 7: kill himself. And you got so mad, you got so bad, 486 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 7: you stormed out of my room. You called him back up, 487 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 7: and you said you you saw have a bitch I 488 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 7: heard you'd like. That was the first time I ever 489 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 7: saw you mad. You're like because I really. 490 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: Felt the whole time he was playing on us. You know, 491 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: I got pit child support, so. 492 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 7: You I separated in nineteen ninety and then he how 493 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 7: did you find out in nineteen ninety five? Didn't you 494 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 7: receive a letter from him? 495 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: I received a letter maybe a week before he got arrested. 496 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: And in this letter it said, Rose, what I did 497 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: is bigger than O. J. 498 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 6: Simpson. 499 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: He said, I'll probably be in hell forever Keith, and 500 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 2: I thought, you are so full of crap. I mean, like, 501 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: it's what this is supposed to mean? Right, shredded a 502 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: piece through in the trash directly to you. It was 503 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: directly to me. 504 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 7: I didn't say anything about us kids. 505 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: It just was like, I did something bigger than oh J. 506 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 6: Simpson gentle. 507 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 7: So you know God is a man, gentle. 508 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: Man, so you know God is a ansome. I like 509 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 2: Beddy good poet God. That's song. So gots it's back 510 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 2: Genzl people. 511 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 6: Who we was. 512 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Oh Happy Face is a production of How Stuff For 513 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bright, Pacheco, Mangesh Hatiketour 514 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: and Will Pearson. Supervising producer is Noel Brown. Music by 515 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope for a Golden Summer. 516 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: Story editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing by Chandler Mays 517 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Chicogne. Special thanks 518 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian Newspaper, and 519 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: the Carlisle family.