WEBVTT - #078 Jason Flom with Ndaba Mandela 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.920 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.639 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.239 Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.480 come a little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:21.760 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.360 Jason Flamm That's me And today we have an extraordinary 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.120 event happening here in the studio because my friend and 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.759 Daba Mandela is here to talk about criminal justice reform. 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:34.920 And Daba welcome to the show. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:36.800 Thank you very much, Jason, appreciate it. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.039 And Daba you are I've not gotten to know you recently. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.600 You are a real throwback to your grandfather. I mean, 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.920 everything I've gotten to interact with you has been well, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:51.480 it's the closest I'm going to get to meeting the 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.360 great Man, and you were actually raised by him. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.520 Yes, that's correct, that's correct. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.800 So before we get into talking about criminal justice reform, 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.080 which I know is a passion of yours your blood, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.200 can you just give us a little bit of the 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.360 backstory because it's one of the most fascinating stories I know. 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.280 Yes, So basically, I like to describe myself as the 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.720 second son of the second son of Nelson Mandela. I 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.560 come from the first marriage of Nelson Mandela, which is 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.200 he was married to Evelyn Marse. A lot of people 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.960 don't know that because they think his original wife was 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.440 Winnie Mandela, but that was actually the second wife. The 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.880 first one is Evelyn, and then they had four children. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.280 The first one died at six months. The second one 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:40.200 was my uncle Tembekuler. He passed away while my grandfather 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.120 was still in jail. And then the third one was 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:49.359 my father. So the first was a daughter, son's son, daughter, 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.520 and my father gave birth to four boys, and I 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.600 am the second son. And so when my grandfather came 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:02.079 out of jail, he basically sent my parents to university 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.800 because they never had the opportunity to go to university 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.880 while he was a whale. And so when he sent 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.120 them to university, he didn't want them to also worry 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.680 about raising me at the same time, so he took 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.840 me in when he sent my parents to university. I 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.600 was about eleven years old at that time, and so 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.720 I you know, from the time I was eleven years old, 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:23.280 I grew up with my grandfather. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.600 He raised me basically a real witness to history. I mean, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.840 you had the front seat, yep for one of the 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:35.680 most important periods of time that ever took place anywhere 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.400 in the world in terms of the impact it had 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:45.320 on global change and civil rights and human rights and 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:51.280 just everything. It's just a remarkable, remarkable story in so 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.560 many ways. And of course you'd visited him in prison, 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:55.120 is that right? 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.480 Yes, I did, you know the first time. Actually when 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.160 I visited him in jail. You know, my parents told 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.480 me that we're going to visit our grand father in jail, 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:06.600 and so I had a typical image of what jail 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:11.440 was like, concrete bars, wardens, you know, dog security everywhere. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.840 But when we got there, it was a house, a 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.520 house that looked much better than the house I lived in, 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.440 because I didn't understand that they had actually removed him 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.600 from you know, the Robin Island and put him in isolation. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.680 They were trying to break him down mentally, to say, Madiba, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.080 you're an old man. Now denounce the movement of the 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.000 liberation movement, denounce your comrades, denounce your party, and lived 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:40.159 the rest of your life in this luxury and enjoy 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.320 your family and your grandkids. But of course we know 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.000 that that didn't work out right. So when we got there, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.360 it was a beautiful house. There was a swimming pool. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.479 I never had a swimming pool, right. We watched a 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.400 never ending story. There was a chef. We met the man, 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:57.880 of course, and he was very warm and was so 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.080 happy to meet every one of us. So looking at that, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.800 I was like, wow, this is a beautiful house. You know, 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.039 I would like to have a house like this one day. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.279 And so, you know, unlike most kids growing up thinking 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:12.640 I want to be a lawyer, I want to be 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.120 a doctor, I said when I grew up, I want 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:15.799 to go to jail. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.960 Wow, that's what an interesting thing. 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:25.280 How old were you I was ten? No, eight is old. 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.960 Yes, that's so that's logical at that age that should 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.200 be probably what the reaction would be for somebody coming 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.120 from this circumstance and seeing this as it was. So 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.320 it's interesting because I've been to his jail cell on 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.520 Robin Island and I've seen obviously it's empty now, but 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.120 I've taken the tour and it's a very profound experience 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.880 to see what, you know, he and his comrades went through. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.320 And anyone who's you know, even a casual student of 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.120 the history, I recommend that they go when they get 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.720 the chance, well to South Africa for starters, but if 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:00.479 you get a chance to visit Robin Ilan, it's not 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.920 an experience that anyone will ever forget. He was locked 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.080 up for almost three decades. 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.600 Right, yeah, twenty seven years. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:13.680 And I'm interested in how that shaped your view and 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:20.159 your priorities now because you know, you well, probably of 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.599 all the grandchildren, you were the closest to him, right 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.839 because you were around him the most. He from what 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.360 I understand, he took a particular interest in you and 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:35.920 saw in you a future leader, which, of course, especially 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:41.280 at his age, he would have been very driven to 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:46.880 ensure that there's you know, a continuation of the movement 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.599 that he built and of the progress that he made. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.960 Of course it's forwards and backwards and one step and 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.240 two steps in the whole thing, and even in America now. 0:06:54.279 --> 0:07:01.640 But so, how did his experience from your perspective, shape him, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:03.960 and how did it shape you? And what are your 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.240 what are your views now on criminal justice reform in 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.200 in Africa, in the world. 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.000 You know, I think to a large extent, because he 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.520 sacrificed his own family, you know, for the freedom of 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.040 his country. You know, he sacrificed what he had here 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.880 for the larger good of the of the society. It 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.560 maybe it was the second chance for him to be 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:35.440 a father, to play that fatherly role, you know, because 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:40.360 he never had that opportunity. And so, you know, because 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.200 he was a man that was a comrade, you know, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:48.119 was a soldier fighting against the system. You know, he 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.560 made sure that he instilled certain values in me to 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.480 become a leader. And you know, one thing he said 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.520 to me, which I'll never forget, is that, Dabba, you're 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.040 my grandma, so therefore people will look at you as 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.280 a leader. Therefore you must get the best marks in class. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.520 And of course at that time, I was just an adolescent. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.600 I was like granddad, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.920 too much pressure. I just want to get by. You know, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.800 I was a kid much like my grandfather, rebel, you know, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.320 sitting at the back of the class, very naughty. You 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.800 hardly did my homework, pe shooting, you know, the girls, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.840 you know, that kind of thing. But of course, as 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:31.680 you grow up, you know a lot, a lot of 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.440 the time, you don't want to be treated as a 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.400 special kid or the special someone. You just want to 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.360 be a normal kid. And one of the things you also, 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:45.160 you know, instilled with me was humility. It was very 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:49.560 important to him. He said, Dabbah, you must never drive 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.640 a Jaguar because people will know you have money. And 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:58.040 as a leader, it's important that you are seen as 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.200 one of the community. As part of the community, you 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.160 understand even if you have more money than them or 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.120 have more access to them, But when you are socializing, 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.640 there must not be any sort of sense that you 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.959 are more important or you should be treated in any 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.959 other different way. So for me, it's the same thing 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.199 when you talk about the criminal justice system or any 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:26.160 sort of justice system, is how do we treat people 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.200 with the same equality, right, whether you're black, whether you're white, 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.040 whether you're male or female. Right, And the laws that 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:39.760 we have, of course standing from aparthdate segregation laws, similar 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.400 to the Jim Crow laws. Right, when you talk about 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:48.000 people who are trying to pretty much just live on 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:53.520 an equal footing, right, that is really the struggle were 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.160 that were that they were fighting against. And that is 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.280 the same struggle when you talk about the justice system, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.000 because the laws that apply to black people who are poor, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.559 who are marginalized are not the same as the laws 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:11.559 that apply to white people who have access, who are 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:18.760 wealthy or well off. Right, you know, I was very 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.240 inspired to be at the event last week in d 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:28.839 C the Criminal the Center, Southern Center for Human Rights. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.040 That's right, and it was the Frederick Douglas Awards ceremony, which, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.559 of course well know Frederick Douglas is one of the 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:43.680 most powerful leaders evolutionists, you know. And for me, it's 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.440 really about making sure that people have first of all, 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.440 education to understand what their rights are right and be 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.040 able once you understand his rights, to be able to 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.960 push right. You know, you have right for legal represent 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.120 you know, you have the right to express what it 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.319 is and not be afraid so to speak, all right, 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.080 And that's really for me. The importance is how do 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:17.040 we make sure that we live in a society where 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.000 everybody is treated the same, regardless of your race or 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:20.560 your sex. 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.320 Yeah, that's a dream that I think has been shared 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.679 by all the great civil rights leaders. And I'm glad 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.160 you brought up Frederick Douglas because it was eighteen forty seven, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:37.480 right when he started his abolitionist newspaper and he, you know, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:42.800 the courage that he and the two I forgot the 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.360 names of the two people who started with him. One 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.440 of them was a woman, but the I mean, their 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.160 lives were at risk every minute of every day, as 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.280 Mandela's was. And you know there's a through line with 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.040 all of this. I mean, it's so odd that we 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.600 still have to have this conversation today, right, but we do, 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:06.679 and it's probably more, you know, more poignant at this 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:08.800 moment than it would have been at almost any other 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.280 time in recent history. Speaking as an American, of course, 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.480 but there are these parallels. And in America, everyone knows 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.920 you have the right to an attorney. Is it the 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.559 same thing in Africa? And one thing I tell in 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.800 my listeners as often as I can is if you 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.280 are arrested for something you didn't do, or someone that 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.520 you love is arrested for something they didn't do, all 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.480 you're supposed to say. All you should say is this 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.719 is my name, this is my address, and I want 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.760 a lawyer because at that point they have to stop intarrogeting. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:43.640 You know, I don't know how it works in South Africa, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.760 but here people, innocent people waive those rights because they 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.640 don't think they have anything to hide, and they think, well, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.680 if I just cooperate, then I can go home. And 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:53.839 they want to be helpful generally, right, people want to 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.400 help the police, They want to be good citizens, they 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:01.480 want to be Yes, yes, it's a paradox, but how 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.120 does it work in South Africa? I mean, ironically, I 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.400 think we have a much higher incarceration rate than you 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:12.000 do now, especially for people of color. But in South Africa, 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.079 is it a similar system? Are you entitled to an attorney? 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:16.320 And if so, when and how does it? 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.280 Yes, you are entitled to an attorney if you can 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.640 afford on. The state will provide one for you, right, right, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.679 same thing. But of course, and a lot of the time, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.559 the or the view, right, the general view is that 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.520 it's better to have money to pay an attorney because 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.240 once you're able to pay an attorney, he does a 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:44.400 better job. Right, generally speaking, that is the general view 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.559 what people have. But what I've seen actually is that 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.360 because you know, my own brother was involved in a 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:58.000 criminal case. He was accused wrongfully of raping a young 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.440 girl who was under the age, right, and you know, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.880 it was a very you can imagine, rape is a 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.360 very sensitive case, right, And my brother was acquitted because 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.560 obviously he did not commit the rape. So it was 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.640 some sort of a witch hunt that we didn't really 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:19.600 understand where it came from. But that said, yes, everybody's 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.440 afforded lawyer. Otherwise you go with the state lawyer. 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.880 I have so many questions about how the system works 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.480 in South Africa. One of them is the death penalty. 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.840 Everyone knows that I'm a strong advocate of abolishing the 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.640 death penalty. I don't think it serves any it doesn't 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.080 serve any useful purpose. It's been proven in every study, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.040 doesn't deserve one crime from happening ever, ever, ever. And 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.640 it is barbaric, and it is arbitrary and capricious, and 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.640 you know, it's it's I mean, everything about it is wrong. 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.040 It's expensive, even if that's where you're coming from. It's 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.960 you know, it's it's imperfect. Even in a perfect system, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.240 it would be imperfect. Right, it's inhumane. But also you 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.520 know the conversation I have with people who are pro 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.400 death penalty, I say to them, and I had this 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.480 conversation recently. I was giving a talk at the New 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.280 School and one guy came up afterwards and he said, well, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.160 you know, I'm in favor of the death penalty. And 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.280 I said, okay, how many innocent people is it okay 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.320 to execute? What percentage? He says, no, no, no, you 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.400 can't execute it. I said, okay, Well, then you're talking 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.320 out of both sides of your mouth, because we know 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.080 the system isn't perfect. You know, the system's imperfect, even 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.080 if everyone is an honest actor in the system and 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.600 doing the best job that they can and and and 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.600 everything is moving through the way it's supposed to, which 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.560 it doesn't and it can't and it never will. We 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.280 can make it better, but will never make it perfect. 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:56.720 You're still going to execute a certain percentage of inness 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:58.800 in people. So that's where it all breaks down. It 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.960 should break down for everyone. But do you still have 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:01.680 the death penalty? 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.760 And no. The first thing, one of the first things 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.720 that our government did, the ANC led government, was to 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.760 abolish the death penalty because we come from a system 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.800 that was using violence as a means to govern, you understand, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.800 So we had to make sure that we break the 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.800 cycle of violence. You know, killing someone because someone killed 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.280 somebody is not gonna like you just said, it's not 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.920 gonna take us anywhere. You're just going to continue perpetuating 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.680 the cycle of violence. So where does it end? You 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.520 understand what I'm saying. So that was a very key 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.320 thing that we did in our country was to abolish 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.880 the death the death penalty completely. 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.520 And what about sentencing laws in South Africa? How does 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.400 it because here, as you know, we have some of 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.600 the harshest sentencing policies in the world, and it always 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.600 boggles my mind, like why, why and how we got 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.200 to this place. I understand it intellectually, but I don't 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:02.040 understand it on any other level, on a humanitarian level. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.679 It's insane. I mean, we just had a case actually 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:10.000 this week where a gentleman in Tennessee had been convicted 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.360 of his first time offense. He was selling I think 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.640 a small quantity of drugs from inside of his own 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:19.000 home too adults. Right, there was no no violence, no 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:20.840 threat of nothing else. Right, But it turned out he 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.760 was in a school zone, right, but he was inside 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:24.720 of his own house. 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:25.639 Not selling to children. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.560 No, no, no, nothing like that. And he was sentenced to 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.560 seventeen years in prison. So yeah, So he was just 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.600 freed this week actually with the cooperation of the prosecutor, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.640 which is so you know, such a nice thing to see. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.400 We don't see it often enough. But he still served 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.240 ten years in prison. I mean, we're so out of step. 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.520 That's like murder, right, he was treated as a murder. 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.120 And so how do you deal with that in South Africa? 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.720 What about the drug laws is it? Do you treat 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.640 it the same way that we do so harshly. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.960 I don't think they treated so harshly in South Africa, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.600 of course, I think which was the same. Here will 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:06.160 be the mitigating factors as to how you put the sentencing. 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.600 You know, is the person remorseful, do they understand the 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:17.280 detrimental effect that they have on society? And what what 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.000 are the mitigating factors? You know, you can't just say, oh, 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.159 you were selling cocaine there for your automatically get fifteen years. 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.920 Was her first time offender, second time of funder, a 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.720 third time offender, So you have to really look at 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.199 all the different mitigating factors to actually come up with 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.560 the right sentencing. And in South Africa, I would say 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.920 it's pretty fair because you know, looking at you know, 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:46.080 when we achieved independence in nineteen ninety four, there were 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.840 even before ninety four we had the Truth and Reconciation 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:57.840 Commission right where we basically gave amnesty to perpetrators of 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:04.960 violence against the victims if they were coming to the 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.159 table to disclose everything that had happened. So if you 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.399 come up and you say exactly what happened, be very honest. 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.960 Who were you with, what made you do it? Et 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.800 cetera et cetera. And you would be literally sitting in 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:24.400 front of the victims of those people that you perpetrated against. 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.800 They would give you amnesty. So for us, I think 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.840 personally that the system in Slavica are currently is not 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.520 as harsh as that of America. For example, you know, 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.520 we met a gentleman last week at the event. I 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.600 forget his name now, but that gentleman. You know what 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:48.960 struck me was that he received twenty three years, which 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:53.360 is the equivalent of two life sentences, for stealing goods 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.240 of five hundred and fifty dollars, a first time offender, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.160 a man with a college degree. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.160 And the Navy veteran said, well, Navy. 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.240 Veteran, that would have happened in Africa, that would not happen. 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.240 That is absurd, that is insane. 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.399 Yes, So they were talking about Lenny Singleton, who was 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.359 convicted of a series of what we call dash and 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:17.080 grab robberies. Right where he went in and he pretended 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.040 he stuck hit his finger in his pocket, he pretended 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.040 to have a weapon, right, so technically that's considered arm 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.879 robbery in America. But he never heard anybody, never touched anybody. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:25.440 He just grabbed the money. 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.000 From the cash register and he didn't have a weapon. 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:27.720 He didn't have a weapon. 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.159 Ye pretended to he didn't have. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.919 Nobody argued at that point. And he can fast, you know, 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.320 so he he was so in your you know, in 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.120 your system. This which anyway, it's so crazy, and here 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.360 with drugs, it's it's absolute madness, because you know, years ago, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.080 I did a presentation for the Democratic Policy Committee in 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.000 the United States Senate, and I brought with me. One 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.400 of the people I brought with me was federal Judge Castillo, 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.440 who was the chairman vice chairman of the US Sentencing Commission, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.760 and he talked about how he was given this most 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:05.000 profound responsibility, which is to sentence another human being to prison, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.480 and then the Congress took all that power away from 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.240 him because they establish these mandatory sentencing laws, which we 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.879 have here now, so that if someone gets picked up 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:14.879 with drugs, they just look at the chart. Here's how 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.360 much drugs it was, here's the thing abobouve and then 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:18.960 you get that much time and the judge has no 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.320 power to judge. The jury says guilty, and off you go, 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.920 according to the chart. But in almost all other types 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.920 of crimes, when there's no mandatory sentence involved. They look 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.359 at the other factors as they do in South Africa, right, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:33.960 and they say, well, your childhood was this, or you 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.199 were or you're disabled in such way, or you have 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:39.639 an experience of this, or your positive contributed positively to 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.600 society in certain ways, and those things are mitigating factors 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.800 and go into the sentence that the judge then decides on. 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.040 So judges, of course hate these mandatory sentencing laws because 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.760 they can't do their jobs. So there's you know, I've 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.400 been on the board of Families Against Mandatory Minimums for 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.800 twenty five years now famm dot Org. I hope people 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.680 will go and look, because they're doing the most important 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:06.680 work in eliminating these crazy sentencing draconian sentencing policies that 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.120 send people to prison for these horrendous amounts of time 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.760 for nonviolent first offenses. It's just nuts. And I don't 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:15.760 know why we do that to our own citizens. Every 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.320 one of these people is a child of someone, a brother, 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.359 a sister, a mother. They know they it's like you're 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:24.600 ripping these communities and part and of course it affects 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.520 people of color disproportionately. That goes without saying and I'm 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.520 assuming that's probably still true in South Africa even to 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:31.920 this day. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.239 Well, of course, I mean the dynamics a little bit 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.199 different because in South Africa eighty seven percent of the 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.520 population is black are the natives as they used to 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:46.080 call us, and thirteen percent of other white people. One 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:50.600 thing that I always wonder about is that, you know, 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:56.720 in South Africa, being a cop is not such a 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:01.880 beneficial job as I see in America. Right. I see 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:04.080 in America that the cops are very well looked after 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.200 by the by the system. But in South Africa, it's 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:13.639 very easy to bribe a cop. It's very easy to 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:15.560 bribe a cop. You don't have to have a lot 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.600