1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me. 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 4: Everything like everything. 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible? 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And 12 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 13 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 4: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 14 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 15 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 16 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 4: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 17 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 4: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has 19 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: come a little ways, but it's still broken. 20 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: Jason Flamm That's me And today we have an extraordinary 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: event happening here in the studio because my friend and 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: Daba Mandela is here to talk about criminal justice reform. 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: And Daba welcome to the show. 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Jason, appreciate it. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 2: And Daba you are I've not gotten to know you recently. 28 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: You are a real throwback to your grandfather. I mean, 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: everything I've gotten to interact with you has been well, 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: it's the closest I'm going to get to meeting the 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: great Man, and you were actually raised by him. 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct, that's correct. 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: So before we get into talking about criminal justice reform, 34 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: which I know is a passion of yours your blood, 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: can you just give us a little bit of the 36 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: backstory because it's one of the most fascinating stories I know. 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: Yes, So basically, I like to describe myself as the 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: second son of the second son of Nelson Mandela. I 39 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: come from the first marriage of Nelson Mandela, which is 40 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: he was married to Evelyn Marse. A lot of people 41 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: don't know that because they think his original wife was 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: Winnie Mandela, but that was actually the second wife. The 43 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: first one is Evelyn, and then they had four children. 44 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: The first one died at six months. The second one 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: was my uncle Tembekuler. He passed away while my grandfather 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: was still in jail. And then the third one was 47 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: my father. So the first was a daughter, son's son, daughter, 48 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: and my father gave birth to four boys, and I 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: am the second son. And so when my grandfather came 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: out of jail, he basically sent my parents to university 51 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: because they never had the opportunity to go to university 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: while he was a whale. And so when he sent 53 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: them to university, he didn't want them to also worry 54 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: about raising me at the same time, so he took 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: me in when he sent my parents to university. I 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: was about eleven years old at that time, and so 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: I you know, from the time I was eleven years old, 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: I grew up with my grandfather. 59 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: He raised me basically a real witness to history. I mean, 60 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: you had the front seat, yep for one of the 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: most important periods of time that ever took place anywhere 62 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: in the world in terms of the impact it had 63 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: on global change and civil rights and human rights and 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: just everything. It's just a remarkable, remarkable story in so 65 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: many ways. And of course you'd visited him in prison, 66 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: is that right? 67 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: Yes, I did, you know the first time. Actually when 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: I visited him in jail. You know, my parents told 69 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: me that we're going to visit our grand father in jail, 70 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: and so I had a typical image of what jail 71 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: was like, concrete bars, wardens, you know, dog security everywhere. 72 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: But when we got there, it was a house, a 73 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: house that looked much better than the house I lived in, 74 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: because I didn't understand that they had actually removed him 75 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: from you know, the Robin Island and put him in isolation. 76 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: They were trying to break him down mentally, to say, Madiba, 77 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: you're an old man. Now denounce the movement of the 78 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: liberation movement, denounce your comrades, denounce your party, and lived 79 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: the rest of your life in this luxury and enjoy 80 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: your family and your grandkids. But of course we know 81 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: that that didn't work out right. So when we got there, 82 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: it was a beautiful house. There was a swimming pool. 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: I never had a swimming pool, right. We watched a 84 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: never ending story. There was a chef. We met the man, 85 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: of course, and he was very warm and was so 86 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: happy to meet every one of us. So looking at that, 87 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is a beautiful house. You know, 88 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: I would like to have a house like this one day. 89 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: And so, you know, unlike most kids growing up thinking 90 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: I want to be a lawyer, I want to be 91 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: a doctor, I said when I grew up, I want 92 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: to go to jail. 93 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 2: Wow, that's what an interesting thing. 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: How old were you I was ten? No, eight is old. 95 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: Yes, that's so that's logical at that age that should 96 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: be probably what the reaction would be for somebody coming 97 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: from this circumstance and seeing this as it was. So 98 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: it's interesting because I've been to his jail cell on 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: Robin Island and I've seen obviously it's empty now, but 100 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: I've taken the tour and it's a very profound experience 101 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: to see what, you know, he and his comrades went through. 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: And anyone who's you know, even a casual student of 103 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: the history, I recommend that they go when they get 104 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: the chance, well to South Africa for starters, but if 105 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: you get a chance to visit Robin Ilan, it's not 106 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: an experience that anyone will ever forget. He was locked 107 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: up for almost three decades. 108 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, twenty seven years. 109 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: And I'm interested in how that shaped your view and 110 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: your priorities now because you know, you well, probably of 111 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: all the grandchildren, you were the closest to him, right 112 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: because you were around him the most. He from what 113 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 2: I understand, he took a particular interest in you and 114 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: saw in you a future leader, which, of course, especially 115 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: at his age, he would have been very driven to 116 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: ensure that there's you know, a continuation of the movement 117 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: that he built and of the progress that he made. 118 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: Of course it's forwards and backwards and one step and 119 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: two steps in the whole thing, and even in America now. 120 00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: But so, how did his experience from your perspective, shape him, 121 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: and how did it shape you? And what are your 122 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: what are your views now on criminal justice reform in 123 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: in Africa, in the world. 124 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: You know, I think to a large extent, because he 125 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: sacrificed his own family, you know, for the freedom of 126 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: his country. You know, he sacrificed what he had here 127 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: for the larger good of the of the society. It 128 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: maybe it was the second chance for him to be 129 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: a father, to play that fatherly role, you know, because 130 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: he never had that opportunity. And so, you know, because 131 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: he was a man that was a comrade, you know, 132 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: was a soldier fighting against the system. You know, he 133 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: made sure that he instilled certain values in me to 134 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: become a leader. And you know, one thing he said 135 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: to me, which I'll never forget, is that, Dabba, you're 136 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: my grandma, so therefore people will look at you as 137 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: a leader. Therefore you must get the best marks in class. 138 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: And of course at that time, I was just an adolescent. 139 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: I was like granddad, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's 140 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: too much pressure. I just want to get by. You know, 141 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: I was a kid much like my grandfather, rebel, you know, 142 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: sitting at the back of the class, very naughty. You 143 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: hardly did my homework, pe shooting, you know, the girls, 144 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing. But of course, as 145 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: you grow up, you know a lot, a lot of 146 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: the time, you don't want to be treated as a 147 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: special kid or the special someone. You just want to 148 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: be a normal kid. And one of the things you also, 149 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, instilled with me was humility. It was very 150 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: important to him. He said, Dabbah, you must never drive 151 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: a Jaguar because people will know you have money. And 152 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: as a leader, it's important that you are seen as 153 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: one of the community. As part of the community, you 154 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: understand even if you have more money than them or 155 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: have more access to them, But when you are socializing, 156 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: there must not be any sort of sense that you 157 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: are more important or you should be treated in any 158 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: other different way. So for me, it's the same thing 159 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: when you talk about the criminal justice system or any 160 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: sort of justice system, is how do we treat people 161 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: with the same equality, right, whether you're black, whether you're white, 162 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: whether you're male or female. Right, And the laws that 163 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: we have, of course standing from aparthdate segregation laws, similar 164 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: to the Jim Crow laws. Right, when you talk about 165 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: people who are trying to pretty much just live on 166 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: an equal footing, right, that is really the struggle were 167 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: that were that they were fighting against. And that is 168 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: the same struggle when you talk about the justice system, 169 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: because the laws that apply to black people who are poor, 170 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: who are marginalized are not the same as the laws 171 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: that apply to white people who have access, who are 172 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: wealthy or well off. Right, you know, I was very 173 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: inspired to be at the event last week in d 174 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: C the Criminal the Center, Southern Center for Human Rights. 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: That's right, and it was the Frederick Douglas Awards ceremony, which, 176 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 1: of course well know Frederick Douglas is one of the 177 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: most powerful leaders evolutionists, you know. And for me, it's 178 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: really about making sure that people have first of all, 179 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: education to understand what their rights are right and be 180 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: able once you understand his rights, to be able to 181 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: push right. You know, you have right for legal represent 182 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, you have the right to express what it 183 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: is and not be afraid so to speak, all right, 184 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: And that's really for me. The importance is how do 185 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: we make sure that we live in a society where 186 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: everybody is treated the same, regardless of your race or 187 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: your sex. 188 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a dream that I think has been shared 189 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: by all the great civil rights leaders. And I'm glad 190 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: you brought up Frederick Douglas because it was eighteen forty seven, 191 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: right when he started his abolitionist newspaper and he, you know, 192 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: the courage that he and the two I forgot the 193 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: names of the two people who started with him. One 194 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: of them was a woman, but the I mean, their 195 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: lives were at risk every minute of every day, as 196 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: Mandela's was. And you know there's a through line with 197 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: all of this. I mean, it's so odd that we 198 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: still have to have this conversation today, right, but we do, 199 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: and it's probably more, you know, more poignant at this 200 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: moment than it would have been at almost any other 201 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: time in recent history. Speaking as an American, of course, 202 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: but there are these parallels. And in America, everyone knows 203 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: you have the right to an attorney. Is it the 204 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 2: same thing in Africa? And one thing I tell in 205 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: my listeners as often as I can is if you 206 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: are arrested for something you didn't do, or someone that 207 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: you love is arrested for something they didn't do, all 208 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: you're supposed to say. All you should say is this 209 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 2: is my name, this is my address, and I want 210 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: a lawyer because at that point they have to stop intarrogeting. 211 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how it works in South Africa, 212 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: but here people, innocent people waive those rights because they 213 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: don't think they have anything to hide, and they think, well, 214 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 2: if I just cooperate, then I can go home. And 215 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: they want to be helpful generally, right, people want to 216 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: help the police, They want to be good citizens, they 217 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: want to be Yes, yes, it's a paradox, but how 218 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: does it work in South Africa? I mean, ironically, I 219 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: think we have a much higher incarceration rate than you 220 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: do now, especially for people of color. But in South Africa, 221 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 2: is it a similar system? Are you entitled to an attorney? 222 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 2: And if so, when and how does it? 223 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: Yes, you are entitled to an attorney if you can 224 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: afford on. The state will provide one for you, right, right, 225 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: same thing. But of course, and a lot of the time, 226 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: the or the view, right, the general view is that 227 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: it's better to have money to pay an attorney because 228 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: once you're able to pay an attorney, he does a 229 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: better job. Right, generally speaking, that is the general view 230 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: what people have. But what I've seen actually is that 231 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: because you know, my own brother was involved in a 232 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: criminal case. He was accused wrongfully of raping a young 233 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: girl who was under the age, right, and you know, 234 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: it was a very you can imagine, rape is a 235 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: very sensitive case, right, And my brother was acquitted because 236 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: obviously he did not commit the rape. So it was 237 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: some sort of a witch hunt that we didn't really 238 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: understand where it came from. But that said, yes, everybody's 239 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: afforded lawyer. Otherwise you go with the state lawyer. 240 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: I have so many questions about how the system works 241 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: in South Africa. One of them is the death penalty. 242 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: Everyone knows that I'm a strong advocate of abolishing the 243 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: death penalty. I don't think it serves any it doesn't 244 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: serve any useful purpose. It's been proven in every study, 245 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: doesn't deserve one crime from happening ever, ever, ever. And 246 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: it is barbaric, and it is arbitrary and capricious, and 247 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's I mean, everything about it is wrong. 248 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: It's expensive, even if that's where you're coming from. It's 249 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's imperfect. Even in a perfect system, 250 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: it would be imperfect. Right, it's inhumane. But also you 251 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: know the conversation I have with people who are pro 252 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: death penalty, I say to them, and I had this 253 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: conversation recently. I was giving a talk at the New 254 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: School and one guy came up afterwards and he said, well, 255 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: you know, I'm in favor of the death penalty. And 256 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: I said, okay, how many innocent people is it okay 257 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: to execute? What percentage? He says, no, no, no, you 258 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: can't execute it. I said, okay, Well, then you're talking 259 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: out of both sides of your mouth, because we know 260 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: the system isn't perfect. You know, the system's imperfect, even 261 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: if everyone is an honest actor in the system and 262 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: doing the best job that they can and and and 263 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: everything is moving through the way it's supposed to, which 264 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: it doesn't and it can't and it never will. We 265 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: can make it better, but will never make it perfect. 266 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: You're still going to execute a certain percentage of inness 267 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: in people. So that's where it all breaks down. It 268 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: should break down for everyone. But do you still have 269 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 2: the death penalty? 270 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: And no. The first thing, one of the first things 271 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: that our government did, the ANC led government, was to 272 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: abolish the death penalty because we come from a system 273 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: that was using violence as a means to govern, you understand, 274 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: So we had to make sure that we break the 275 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: cycle of violence. You know, killing someone because someone killed 276 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: somebody is not gonna like you just said, it's not 277 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: gonna take us anywhere. You're just going to continue perpetuating 278 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: the cycle of violence. So where does it end? You 279 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying. So that was a very key 280 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: thing that we did in our country was to abolish 281 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: the death the death penalty completely. 282 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: And what about sentencing laws in South Africa? How does 283 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: it because here, as you know, we have some of 284 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: the harshest sentencing policies in the world, and it always 285 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: boggles my mind, like why, why and how we got 286 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: to this place. I understand it intellectually, but I don't 287 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: understand it on any other level, on a humanitarian level. 288 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 2: It's insane. I mean, we just had a case actually 289 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: this week where a gentleman in Tennessee had been convicted 290 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 2: of his first time offense. He was selling I think 291 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 2: a small quantity of drugs from inside of his own 292 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: home too adults. Right, there was no no violence, no 293 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: threat of nothing else. Right, But it turned out he 294 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: was in a school zone, right, but he was inside 295 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: of his own house. 296 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: Not selling to children. 297 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: No, no, no, nothing like that. And he was sentenced to 298 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: seventeen years in prison. So yeah, So he was just 299 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: freed this week actually with the cooperation of the prosecutor, 300 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: which is so you know, such a nice thing to see. 301 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 2: We don't see it often enough. But he still served 302 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: ten years in prison. I mean, we're so out of step. 303 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: That's like murder, right, he was treated as a murder. 304 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 2: And so how do you deal with that in South Africa? 305 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: What about the drug laws is it? Do you treat 306 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: it the same way that we do so harshly. 307 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: I don't think they treated so harshly in South Africa, 308 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: of course, I think which was the same. Here will 309 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: be the mitigating factors as to how you put the sentencing. 310 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: You know, is the person remorseful, do they understand the 311 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: detrimental effect that they have on society? And what what 312 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: are the mitigating factors? You know, you can't just say, oh, 313 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: you were selling cocaine there for your automatically get fifteen years. 314 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: Was her first time offender, second time of funder, a 315 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: third time offender, So you have to really look at 316 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: all the different mitigating factors to actually come up with 317 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: the right sentencing. And in South Africa, I would say 318 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: it's pretty fair because you know, looking at you know, 319 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: when we achieved independence in nineteen ninety four, there were 320 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: even before ninety four we had the Truth and Reconciation 321 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: Commission right where we basically gave amnesty to perpetrators of 322 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: violence against the victims if they were coming to the 323 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: table to disclose everything that had happened. So if you 324 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: come up and you say exactly what happened, be very honest. 325 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: Who were you with, what made you do it? Et 326 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: cetera et cetera. And you would be literally sitting in 327 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: front of the victims of those people that you perpetrated against. 328 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: They would give you amnesty. So for us, I think 329 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: personally that the system in Slavica are currently is not 330 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: as harsh as that of America. For example, you know, 331 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: we met a gentleman last week at the event. I 332 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: forget his name now, but that gentleman. You know what 333 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: struck me was that he received twenty three years, which 334 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: is the equivalent of two life sentences, for stealing goods 335 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: of five hundred and fifty dollars, a first time offender, 336 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: a man with a college degree. 337 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: And the Navy veteran said, well, Navy. 338 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: Veteran, that would have happened in Africa, that would not happen. 339 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: That is absurd, that is insane. 340 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: Yes, So they were talking about Lenny Singleton, who was 341 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: convicted of a series of what we call dash and 342 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: grab robberies. Right where he went in and he pretended 343 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: he stuck hit his finger in his pocket, he pretended 344 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: to have a weapon, right, so technically that's considered arm 345 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: robbery in America. But he never heard anybody, never touched anybody. 346 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: He just grabbed the money. 347 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: From the cash register and he didn't have a weapon. 348 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: He didn't have a weapon. 349 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: Ye pretended to he didn't have. 350 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 2: Nobody argued at that point. And he can fast, you know, 351 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: so he he was so in your you know, in 352 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 2: your system. This which anyway, it's so crazy, and here 353 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 2: with drugs, it's it's absolute madness, because you know, years ago, 354 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 2: I did a presentation for the Democratic Policy Committee in 355 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: the United States Senate, and I brought with me. One 356 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: of the people I brought with me was federal Judge Castillo, 357 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: who was the chairman vice chairman of the US Sentencing Commission, 358 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: and he talked about how he was given this most 359 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: profound responsibility, which is to sentence another human being to prison, 360 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: and then the Congress took all that power away from 361 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: him because they establish these mandatory sentencing laws, which we 362 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 2: have here now, so that if someone gets picked up 363 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: with drugs, they just look at the chart. Here's how 364 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 2: much drugs it was, here's the thing abobouve and then 365 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: you get that much time and the judge has no 366 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: power to judge. The jury says guilty, and off you go, 367 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: according to the chart. But in almost all other types 368 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: of crimes, when there's no mandatory sentence involved. They look 369 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: at the other factors as they do in South Africa, right, 370 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: and they say, well, your childhood was this, or you 371 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 2: were or you're disabled in such way, or you have 372 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 2: an experience of this, or your positive contributed positively to 373 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: society in certain ways, and those things are mitigating factors 374 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: and go into the sentence that the judge then decides on. 375 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: So judges, of course hate these mandatory sentencing laws because 376 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: they can't do their jobs. So there's you know, I've 377 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: been on the board of Families Against Mandatory Minimums for 378 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: twenty five years now famm dot Org. I hope people 379 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: will go and look, because they're doing the most important 380 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: work in eliminating these crazy sentencing draconian sentencing policies that 381 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 2: send people to prison for these horrendous amounts of time 382 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: for nonviolent first offenses. It's just nuts. And I don't 383 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: know why we do that to our own citizens. Every 384 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: one of these people is a child of someone, a brother, 385 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 2: a sister, a mother. They know they it's like you're 386 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: ripping these communities and part and of course it affects 387 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: people of color disproportionately. That goes without saying and I'm 388 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: assuming that's probably still true in South Africa even to 389 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: this day. 390 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: Well, of course, I mean the dynamics a little bit 391 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: different because in South Africa eighty seven percent of the 392 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: population is black are the natives as they used to 393 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: call us, and thirteen percent of other white people. One 394 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: thing that I always wonder about is that, you know, 395 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: in South Africa, being a cop is not such a 396 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: beneficial job as I see in America. Right. I see 397 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: in America that the cops are very well looked after 398 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: by the by the system. But in South Africa, it's 399 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: very easy to bribe a cop. It's very easy to 400 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: bribe a cop. You don't have to have a lot 401 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: of money. You can literally bribe a cop with equivalent 402 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: of ten dollars, you know, to get away with drinking 403 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: under the influence, for example. You know, that's how easy 404 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: it is, and that's that's generally the the the thing 405 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: across the continent of Africa. But I don't I don't 406 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: see that happening here in America. I see the cops really, 407 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, being hardcore. I think my perception anyway, to 408 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: bribe a cop for do you are, you'd have to 409 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: play him like a thousand or five thousand dollars something 410 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: like that, right. 411 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: And of course it's another crime. If you try to 412 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: bribe a law enforcement official, they can add to the charges, 413 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 2: you know, if they you know, and so and here, 414 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: I think you're right. It doesn't happen often. And I'm 415 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: one of these people who I say, you know that 416 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: I believe been a system of laws. I want to 417 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: make it better, I want to make it fairer. But 418 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 2: I recognize that most of the people in the system 419 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: are people who mean to do well. They took these 420 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 2: jobs because they wanted to protect society. And you know 421 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: that holds true for the judges and many of the 422 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: prosecutors as well. There are some bad ones, though, and 423 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: the bad ones, if you have the misfortune to run 424 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: across one of those, your life can be turned upside 425 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: down in an instant. And we know too many of 426 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: those stories. And it's really Lenny Singleton was one, and 427 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: of course you met John Huffington when you were there 428 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: as well, who's been on the show. So it's sort 429 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: of thirty two years on death row for murders to 430 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: murders that they knew he didn't commit. And you know, 431 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: he's an amazing, amazing guy. He had that great saying 432 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 2: right when somebody we were talking to him and somebody said, 433 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: aren't you bitter? And he says, no, man, he goes, 434 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: that's why the rearview mirror is small and the windshield 435 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: is big. And I was like, oh, man, I love that. 436 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: He must have read some of your grandpa's books like something, 437 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: because you know, that's that's channeling that spirit. Right, So 438 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: if you could wave a magic wand and you know, 439 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: obviously there's so much going on in South Africa beyond 440 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 2: the criminal justice system. You know, we're we're here with 441 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: the guys from bet Paw, who is an organization that's 442 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: devoted to trying to save the rhinos and the elephants, 443 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 2: because you know, you're facing an existential crisis there with 444 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: the possible extinction within a decade of the most iconic 445 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: animals in the world and what that will mean in 446 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 2: so many it's there's so many terrible consequences of that, right, 447 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: I mean, it hurts, it hurts my heart. But also 448 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: with tourism and everything else. So there's a lot of 449 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: issues that you're dealing with. And I know you're very 450 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: active in you know, in the affairs of the country, 451 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 2: and you love your country. I'm looking forward to visiting 452 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: you over there to huh. And but if you could 453 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 2: wave a magic wand at the criminal justice system and 454 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: make it, you know, remake it in a way that 455 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: was more consistent with your own values vision, if it 456 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: was you know, again drawing from the lessons of you know, 457 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: your grandfather, the great hero, what would it look like 458 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 2: and what would you do? Because maybe you'll have the opportunity, 459 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 2: I hope, so. 460 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: You know there are For me, what I've learned is 461 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: that you know, people will commit crime. There are two 462 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: reasons why people commit crime. One's poverty. Two is purely 463 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: criminal element, right, trying to cook the system. So as 464 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: much as you want to deal with the criminal justice system, 465 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: you have to look at the fact as why people 466 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: commit crimes. Right, it's poverty, and then you have gangsterism, 467 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: which is just pure criminal element. So for me, a 468 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: large part of that is the poverty. You know, if 469 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: you're able, my one would be to make sure that 470 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: people have education, get rid of poverty, because once you 471 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 1: get rid of poverty and people have education, half the 472 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: people who are in jail will not be in jail. 473 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: If not more, if not more, so, let us deal 474 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: with the fundamental issue at hand. That is the fundamental 475 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: issue for me. That's why I would wave my. 476 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 2: Wand yeah, I mean that's addressing it at the cause right, 477 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: as opposed to the effect. And I think we have 478 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: to deal with I call it prevention and cure. I mean, 479 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: we have to deal with these problems on every level. Ironically, 480 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: it is a cycle, right, because we know that in America, 481 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: the sociologists that have studied this issue have come to 482 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: the conclusion, which is probably not a shock, that the 483 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: number one determining factor of whether a child will end 484 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: up in prison eventually is whether they've had a parent 485 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: in prison. And so we have to break that cycle, 486 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: and we have to attack it on both fronts. We 487 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: have to reverse mass incarceration and let these people out 488 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 2: who are not any threat to society. We have to 489 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 2: hear reform the bail system. I'm curious to know how 490 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: that works in South Africa as well. That's the next 491 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: thing I want to talk to you about. And we 492 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: have to get rid of these mandatory sensing laws that 493 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: lock these people up for these insane periods of time. 494 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: You know, the great Brian Stevenson. Have you met Brian. 495 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: You'll have the privilege at some point and he'll have 496 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: the privilege of meeting you. I hope so. Brian Stevenson 497 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: is a great hero of mine, and he has a 498 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: wonderful expression where he says, I believe everyone is better 499 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: than the worst thing they've ever done. And it's true. 500 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: I think I believe that. 501 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have to start looking at these people as 502 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: people and not numbers and not statistics, and not inmates 503 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: and not you know, I mean, this is it's the 504 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: it's the new Jim Crawl, right, it's the modern version 505 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: of slavery. And you know, I don't know if you 506 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: know this, but in America, when slavery was abolished, it 507 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: was only abolished for free people. So they never change that. 508 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: So it's still legal if you're in custody of the state. 509 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: So it's an economic engine, right right, which feeds the 510 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: rich people at the expense of the poor, and then 511 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: we end up in this vicious cycle, like I said, 512 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: which takes us right back to you know, the impact 513 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: that it has on the families and the communities of 514 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: these people who are again mostly people of color, who 515 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: are being taken away from that because of transgressions that 516 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: they're and I consider myself one of the lucky ones 517 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 2: because I grew up in a you know, in an 518 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: upper middle class environment where I was not subjected to 519 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: the same type of treatment. So so what about That's 520 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: one topic I do want to cover is bail. How 521 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: does it work in South Africa? Because here we have 522 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: a crazy system where if you're arrested and you're charged 523 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: with shoplifting or jumping a turnstyle, or drinking a beer 524 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: in public, whatever might be, bail might be said at 525 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty dollars or one thousand dollars or whatever. 526 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 2: It is small amount, but if you don't have that money, 527 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 2: you're just staying in jail until your trial. That could 528 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: be weeks or months or even years. And what we 529 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: should be doing, of course, is sending people home to 530 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 2: their family, to their job, to their church, whatever they're doing, 531 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 2: and then come back and here's your date to come back, 532 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: and we'll see you in court and then we figure 533 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 2: this out and that's it. But that's not the way 534 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: it works here. We have almost a half a million 535 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: people in jail in America while we're sitting here, just 536 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: because they're too poor to post their own bail. So 537 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: we have two separate systems of justice here, one if 538 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: you're rich and one if you're poor. That's a violation 539 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: of the sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, but we're 540 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: not going to get into that now. It's not a 541 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: constitutional law class. However, how does it work in South Africa? 542 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: Do you have a similar arrangement there? 543 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty much the same. It's pretty much the same. 544 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: But in my experience and my knowledge, bail is never 545 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: really set that high. Generally people can afford bail, but 546 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: of course you are. You do have poor people who 547 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: cannot afford, who cannot afford it, and it's terrible because 548 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: now you're in jail, you know, you get fired from 549 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: your job, so you don't even have a means to 550 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: pay for that bail, you know, if you're able to 551 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: continue your job, you know. Because it should be innocent 552 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: until proven guilty, But the minute you are accused, for example, 553 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: of rape, most people automatically assume that you are guilty. 554 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: You know, and I have a personal experience to this 555 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: because my younger brother was actually accused of rape. Now, 556 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: the minute you're accused of rape, and we know this. 557 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: It's one of the most sensitive crimes is the minute 558 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: you're accused of rape, most people automatically assume that you 559 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: are guilty or will side with the female without knowing 560 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: any you know, information about how it took place, where 561 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: it took place, any information whatsoever. Just because you were 562 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: accused of rape, he must be built. Why would the 563 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: woman accuse him, you know, out of nowhere for rape, 564 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: you know. But they don't even know what the situation. 565 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: They don't even know the relationship of these people, right, 566 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: and that's one of the worst sort of crimes out there, right, 567 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: to be honest, it's one of the worst. So, yeah, 568 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: bail is pretty much works the same. 569 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: Right, and here it's supposed to be said according to 570 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 2: your ability to pay, but it's not done in that 571 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: manner typically. Here it's just sort of done almost by 572 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: it's almost like it's done by a machine. It's just 573 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: sort of here's the thing. They just draw a line. 574 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 2: They're accused of shoplifting. It's going to be five hundred dollars. 575 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: Because there's too many people going through the system, it's overloaded, 576 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: and so they just some of them don't. You don't 577 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: ever see a lawyer. You don't get any You may 578 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 2: even be doing it on a video screen. They may 579 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: do it in a group. People aren't aware of this 580 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 2: until they get caught in it. But man, once you 581 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: get caught in it just gets worse and worse. And 582 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: it's exactly as you describe, because then your life gets 583 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: significantly worse because most of these people, if they can't 584 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: afford bail, it's because they're living paycheck to paycheck. And 585 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 2: now your job is going away, your apartment, you're going 586 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: to lose that if you have one, you could lose custody. 587 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: Of your kids. 588 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 2: It's just a terrible, terrible downward spirals that you get 589 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: into and only because you're poor. And that doesn't make 590 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 2: any logical sense whatsoever. And it's another one of these things. 591 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: If I had a magic one, that'd be one of 592 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,239 Speaker 2: the first things that I would fix that in our 593 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: system of parole and probation and all this other stuff. 594 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: How about the jail conditions, because it's such an odd thing. 595 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: You know, now we have groups of people going from 596 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 2: the United States to visit prisons in Western Europe. In 597 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: some of the countries in Western Europe, like Germany, the 598 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: prisons are designed for the purpose of rehabilitation, and their 599 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: prisoners are treated humanly, do with respect. The same is 600 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: true in Scandinavia, where they're treated, you know, in a 601 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: way where it's basically a philosophy of hey, you guys 602 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 2: are going to come out one day, you're going to 603 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: be our next door neighbors. That's how the guards approach it. 604 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: The guards have to study for two years, they have 605 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: to get degrees in psychology. It's amazing, right, And as 606 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: a result, those countries have much lower recidivism rates than 607 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: we do. They're allowed out for furloughs and things like 608 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: that to go work, and even before they're release they 609 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: go out to look for jobs and things like that. Yeah, 610 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 2: I mean, so the good news is we now have 611 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 2: delegations from our corrections system institutions, some political leaders going 612 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: and visiting and seeing how it can be done there. 613 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: There's some movement. They have a long way to go, 614 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: but basically our system here is designed for punishment, not rehabilitation, 615 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: and some of the conditions in the jails and prisons 616 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 2: are absolutely brutal. 617 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: Same in South Africa. I mean, you used to be 618 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: able to get a degree in jail. You can't. You 619 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: can't anymore that that that has been taken away completely. 620 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: There's so much overcrowding in cells. You know, you get 621 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 1: a room like we're in right now with easily twenty 622 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: people living in a cell like this. I mean, I 623 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: don't know about here, but the the amount of rape 624 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: that occurs inside the inside the prisoner is heavy. You know, 625 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: there's gangs obviously in prison, and there's one of the 626 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: gangs in South Africa that actually specialize in violence and 627 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: systematically you know, raping and stealing fear in other prisoners. 628 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: There's also the amount of corruption because of poverty. You know, 629 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: prisoners are able to bribe the wardens to the point 630 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: where if a adolescent right juvenile, you can pay the 631 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: warden to say, hey, I want that young boy to 632 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: come to myself tonight and they can have his way 633 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: have his way. I'll tell you about one of the 634 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: I studied criminology, and there was a gentleman I forget 635 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: his name now, but he had such a crazy story. 636 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: He was actually a general right in the in the 637 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: in the prison, so he was one of the most 638 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: ruthless shit persons. He even had a way of how 639 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: to attack and kill somebody that he had to kill, 640 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: you know, he used a pen, you chop and a pen. 641 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: He'd go for the neck, go for the eye, you know. 642 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: But one day, he said, when everything switched for him, 643 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: is that when he witnessed a young boy hardly sixteen 644 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: years old, got gang raped by about ten guys and 645 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: was on the floor, bleeding, crying, just completely in shambles. 646 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: And he showed his kid and he said to the kid, 647 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,240 Speaker 1: do something for yourself. And the kid said, I can't see, 648 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: I can't feel. What can I do? And that touched 649 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: them so deeply that he actually decided that he's going 650 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 1: to change from becoming a general and actually expose the 651 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: corruption that was happening in jail. And so he spoke 652 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: to people outside the jail, he smuggled in cameras into 653 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: the jail right and exposed the rape, exposed the criminal 654 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: activities that the wardens were actually getting involved in, to 655 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: the point where he even got a pardon from the 656 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: from the president of our country. And he ended up 657 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: marrying his lawyer, which was a white woman and he 658 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: was a black guy, because of what he had witnessed 659 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: of this sort of gang rape of this young boy 660 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: that had come into into the into the cells, you know, 661 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: So the conditions are horrific, The conditions are disturbing, to 662 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: be honest with you, when I visited my you know, 663 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: in jail cigarette our currency. Cigarettes are currency people smuggling 664 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 1: anything and everything, as you can imagine, right, But more 665 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: so it's the corruption of the actual system because the 666 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: wardens themselves part of that corruption system that has been 667 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: entrenched over decades, you understand, over decades. So basically, with money, 668 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: you can do anything you want to do. If you 669 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: have money, you can live like you are living in 670 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: the normal apartment in mittm Manhattan pretty much. 671 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 2: And if you don't, you're living in hell. Yeah, literal hell. 672 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,959 Speaker 2: I mean the way you described it can't be much 673 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 2: worse than that. 674 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: That's it. 675 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: And in fact, we had an amazing guy, a hero 676 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 2: of mine, Pete Uko from Kenya was on the show 677 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 2: and he had been wrongfully convicted intense to death and 678 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: he was describing a similar situation to what you said, 679 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,280 Speaker 2: where he was in a small cell with thirteen other guys, 680 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 2: and he said that in order for them to sleep, 681 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: they would all have to lay on one side facing 682 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: the same way, and like sardines in a canon, they 683 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 2: would have to roll over at the same time, and 684 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: you know it's just yeah, I mean, it's so crazy 685 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 2: and his story is amazing. I'll show you the podcast 686 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 2: that Peluco is on and now he's about on Vergi 687 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: of becoming a lawyer and he's just i think just 688 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 2: joined on some one of the boards of Amnesty. I mean, 689 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 2: he's doing amazing, amazing things and helping the youth over there. 690 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: What a great guy. So anyway, we have a tradition 691 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 2: here on wrongful conviction which I'm going to share with 692 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: you now. And it's actually my favorite part of the show. 693 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 2: Probably a lot of people in the audience would agree, 694 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 2: But anyway, this is the part of the show where 695 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 2: our featured, our honored guest gets the free reign of 696 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 2: the microphone. What I do is I give you my thanks, 697 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: and thank the audience and our producers as well for 698 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: being here and sharing your thoughts and your wisdom, and 699 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: thank everyone for listening. And now for the last part 700 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 2: of the show, I just like to turn it over 701 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: to you for any closing thoughts you have on anything 702 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:15,399 Speaker 2: at all. 703 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: You know what I can say, in the words of 704 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela, education is the most powerful weapon you can 705 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: use to change your world. And that's why it's important 706 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: for us to make sure that young people have access 707 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: to information, of access to education so that they can 708 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: understand that they are the masters of their destiny. We 709 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: need to make sure that we're in power as many 710 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: young people as we can. We need to become mentors 711 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: in our society. Go on other days where your judges, 712 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: your lawyers or doctors are the most influential people on society. 713 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: These days it's your musicians, it is your actors, you 714 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: entertainers who are the most influential people on the young 715 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: people right, And those people are not always cognizant of 716 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: the influence and the sort of role model position that 717 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: they hold in society, and so they don't actually take 718 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: it to consideration right, and they may be careless with it. 719 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: So I would like to say that each and every 720 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: single one of us has opportunity to mentor a young person, 721 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: to make sure that young person can deal with whatever 722 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 1: challenges that they face, even if it is just helping 723 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: that young person with doing their homework, finding out how 724 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: they dare was finding out how they weak was what 725 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: you can help them with. You know, there are so 726 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: many young people out there who parents are in jail, 727 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: who grow up without a father, without a mother, you know, 728 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,320 Speaker 1: who don't value themselves in society, and they become easy 729 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: prey to gangsterism and being recruited by the thugs in society. 730 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: So I want to say to the people out there 731 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: that you know, if you take just one hour a 732 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: week to sit to the young person, to mentor a 733 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: young person, and you do that one hour week that 734 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: is nothing on a Saturday or a Sunday, to sit 735 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: with the young person to mentor that person, think about 736 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: the positive effect and the value that that young person 737 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: will have to know that there's somebody out there who 738 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: cares for them, who will spend the time, because time 739 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: is just as important as money, to be with that person, 740 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: to listen to them, to give them guidance. For me, 741 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: we all need to go out there and try to 742 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: be good mentors in society. One young person, that is all. 743 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: It takes one hour week, you can make a much 744 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: better society. 745 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 2: Thank you again for being here. I'm wrong for conviction. 746 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 2: I look forward to working together to make a difference, 747 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what we're going to do. So this 748 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: has been an extraordinary experience for me and Thank you 749 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 2: again to our audience for listening. 750 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Jason, that was beautiful. 751 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you 752 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 753 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 2: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll 754 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 755 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 2: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot 756 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 2: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd 757 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 758 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,760 Speaker 2: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 759 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 2: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 760 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 2: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 761 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava 762 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 763 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: The Lady, The Way