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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Javan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and how the tech are you? It's time for a

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Speaker 1: classic episode of tech Stuff. This episode originally published on

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Speaker 1: May four, two thousand fifteen, So Hey, star wars day.

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Speaker 1: It is titled The Story of Internet Explorer, Part One,

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Speaker 1: which I guess means you can probably have a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea of what next week's classic episode is going

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Speaker 1: to be. This episode featured special guest Nate Langson. Nate

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Speaker 1: is awesome, great tech journalist. I should have him on

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Speaker 1: the show again. It's been too long since I last

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Speaker 1: spoke with him. Hope you enjoy. Nate is joining me

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Speaker 1: to talk about Internet Explorer, and the reason we're talking

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Speaker 1: about it is that it's a web browser has a

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Speaker 1: very long history, and that history now seems to have

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Speaker 1: an end cap to it because Microsoft appears to be

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Speaker 1: leaving Internet Explorer behind and embracing a new product that

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Speaker 1: currently is codenamed Projects Spartan, but we'll probably have some

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Speaker 1: different name once it actually goes live. So we're going

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Speaker 1: to cover the dramatic history that's filled with uh tons

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Speaker 1: of interesting stories, as it turns out, and to really

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Speaker 1: get started, we have to turn the clock back before

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Speaker 1: there was ever any web browsers at all, at the

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Speaker 1: birth of the first web browser, which we can trace

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Speaker 1: back to Christmas Day, December nineteen wo m C m

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Speaker 1: x C, as the Romans would call it. Right, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you took that. Whenever I start thinking about Roman numerals,

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Speaker 1: I have to start dialing I X I I uh,

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Speaker 1: which only takes sense for the listeners here in America.

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Speaker 1: Um So, Tim berners Lee was working at at cern

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Speaker 1: saying people who are responsible for the large Hadron Collider,

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Speaker 1: and had developed a program that would allow for the

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Speaker 1: retrieval and display of information UH in a way that

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Speaker 1: would make sense, make it easy to navigate. This would

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Speaker 1: become the first web browser, which is kind of funny

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Speaker 1: because without the web browser, you really don't have a

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Speaker 1: worldwide Web. You definitely had an Internet because the Internet

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Speaker 1: is a network of networks and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: I realize maybe this isn't as bad as it used

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Speaker 1: to be, but a lot of people often will say

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Speaker 1: web and mean Internet or vice versa. They'll use the

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Speaker 1: terms changeably. I've described it in the past. Touch the

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Speaker 1: two people who get this wrong as the web is

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Speaker 1: the call on the highway that is the internet, right.

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Speaker 1: They they are the websites on top of the net, right,

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Speaker 1: And there are other vehicles on that same highway, right.

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Speaker 1: Because the email does not have to be web based

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Speaker 1: uh FTP, you know, file transfer protocol, other protocols. Um.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the way I originally really made use of

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Speaker 1: the Internet back in the day was through the tel

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Speaker 1: net chat client. I used that a lot when I

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Speaker 1: was in college as a way of distracting myself and

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Speaker 1: making friends with people who were more into the same

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Speaker 1: things I was into. I went to for the first

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Speaker 1: two years of my schooling a small community college in

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Speaker 1: rural Georgia, and a lot of the people I was

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Speaker 1: around didn't share the same interests I did, so telling

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Speaker 1: that was one of those things that allowed me to

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Speaker 1: go beyond that. But that was before I had ever

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Speaker 1: heard of the Worldwide Web and web browsers um. So

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Speaker 1: we have to remember that this time before were there

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Speaker 1: were browsers there, there were there were not really any

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Speaker 1: user friendly ways of accessing information. You kind of had

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Speaker 1: to really dive into the tech and understand commands in

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Speaker 1: order to get anything out of it. Even if those

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Speaker 1: commands were fairly simple, it was an high enough barrier

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Speaker 1: of entry that there were only a few of us

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Speaker 1: playing in that in that world at that time, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there were like people in colleges and research

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Speaker 1: facilities and governments that had access to it for various

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Speaker 1: official purposes. There were very few like fun applications outside

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Speaker 1: of some wacky people saying, hey, this computer that's crunching

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Speaker 1: numbers for your your astronomy class, we can also make

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Speaker 1: it play tic tech toe. I mean around about this time,

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Speaker 1: there were also other similar sort of projects they think

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Speaker 1: that we're going on at certain like people built sort

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Speaker 1: of not competing necessarily, but there were other programs that

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Speaker 1: created to sort of browse in a in a more

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Speaker 1: visual way, right, And and it turns out that this

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Speaker 1: was a brilliant idea. And another little thing to fall

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Speaker 1: back on is just a quick explanation of what's going

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Speaker 1: on with a web browser. For those of you who

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Speaker 1: are you know, more casual fans of technology, this might

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Speaker 1: be helpful for those of you who you know, are

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Speaker 1: really deep in the field. This is going to sound

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Speaker 1: incredibly simplistic, but we have to talk about what a

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Speaker 1: client is and what a server is. So your client

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Speaker 1: is essentially your machine, the device you're using to end

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Speaker 1: up retrieving information from some other computer a server which

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Speaker 1: actually holds the information that you are interested in. So

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Speaker 1: if you are using a web browser to visit a

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Speaker 1: web page, there is somewhere in the world a computer

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Speaker 1: that has all that information on it and it gets

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Speaker 1: the request from your browser the client, and says, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: here's what you ask for, and send it across the internet.

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Speaker 1: Your browser is in charge of displaying that information in

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Speaker 1: some way that hopefully is useful and informative. And that's

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Speaker 1: the basic relationship that the web browser is built around.

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Speaker 1: It's not the only client server relationship, but it's a

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Speaker 1: great example of one, I mean, and it's it's interesting because,

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Speaker 1: as I'm sure we will be coming too later, the

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Speaker 1: relationship between the idea of a client server model really

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Speaker 1: has not changed. And in fact, when you get into

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Speaker 1: the likes of the Chrome OS, the browser is just

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Speaker 1: a dumb client. It's a client terminal model for the

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Speaker 1: entire OS and essentially, but we're moving forward twenty five

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Speaker 1: years before we get at that point. The nice thing

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Speaker 1: is that this model works so well that it ended

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Speaker 1: up being the foundation for a lot of different applications,

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Speaker 1: including the Chrome operating system and uh and of course

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Speaker 1: we're seeing more and more services and applications migrating to

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Speaker 1: the Internet side of things where we see this this uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of a seesaw act. Right on

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Speaker 1: one side, we see hardware manufacturers that are still saying no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you really want the strongest, fastest machine possible. And meanwhile

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Speaker 1: all the service providers are saying, we're handling all the

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Speaker 1: heavy lifting. You just need a device that can connect

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Speaker 1: to us. That way we get to control all the stuff. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's but it's because of this relationship that

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Speaker 1: that kind of infrastructure is even possible. I mean that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the interesting thing. Also, just as a

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Speaker 1: slight related tangent, I suppose about Moore's law, which is

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Speaker 1: celebrating an anniversary at the moment, is that it's always

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Speaker 1: been assumed that we need the most and biggest and

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Speaker 1: fastest power in our computers because we want to do

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Speaker 1: more and more things locally. Which, in a way, if

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Speaker 1: that was always going to be true, you would need

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Speaker 1: less and less on the on the service side outside

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Speaker 1: of the well the realms of um the web. But

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Speaker 1: of course now it's becoming much more about efficiency and

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Speaker 1: and low cost and and um thinness in our devices,

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Speaker 1: and so we don't need that sort of huge lifting

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Speaker 1: power within the machines we're currently using ourselves, which makes

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Speaker 1: a browser the perfect interface for a modern machine because

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Speaker 1: it just needs to be the go between, the conduit

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Speaker 1: between the very powerful server and the very small, powerful,

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Speaker 1: less powerful desktop machine or laptop or tablet or notebook

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Speaker 1: or what have you. And it means More's law has

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Speaker 1: may actually become irrelevant before it actually becomes wrong. You know,

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Speaker 1: we may not need that power, that sort of doubling

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Speaker 1: of power every eighteen months, because we have actually no

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Speaker 1: need for that power anymore. And in fact, Moore's law

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Speaker 1: originally was all about the financial side of you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that there were these financial drivers that were

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Speaker 1: incentives to create these increasingly more powerful and smaller components

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Speaker 1: on square inch of silicon. Now we're getting to a

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Speaker 1: point where if if we don't need that, then there's

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Speaker 1: less incentive. So there may be a point of pride

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Speaker 1: among some you know, engineers and computer scientists who want

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Speaker 1: to keep pushing that envelope and try and make it um,

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Speaker 1: you know, try and beat their record in a way.

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Speaker 1: But if the the demand isn't there, then, like you said,

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Speaker 1: Moore's law could become obsolete before we hit that fundamental

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Speaker 1: limit from the laws of physics that had gone through

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Speaker 1: the same exponential growth that More's law predicted for um

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Speaker 1: silicon um, you would be able to do a hundred

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Speaker 1: miles on one tenth of a millilita of fuel and

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Speaker 1: that would cost you twenty five cents in a car

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Speaker 1: that costs five cents. And uh, in order to get

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Speaker 1: back to the world that where this is, this is

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Speaker 1: being you know, this is a relevant thing. UH, going

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Speaker 1: back to the early nineties. This is these are the

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Speaker 1: days where early nineties I was in high school about

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Speaker 1: to go into college. UM and early to mid nineties

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Speaker 1: that's my high school college years. Uh. In the those

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Speaker 1: early nineties, you started seeing lots of different programmers build

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Speaker 1: their own web browsers. A lot of them were within cerns,

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Speaker 1: some of them were in colleges and universities, and we

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Speaker 1: started to see more people get access to it because

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Speaker 1: it was very clear that this was going to be

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Speaker 1: a useful tool to navigate information. We move on to

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Speaker 1: February and that's when Mark and Reason and Eric Bana

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Speaker 1: of the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University

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Speaker 1: of Illinois at Urbana champaign A eight and C. S A,

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Speaker 1: our mutual friend Tom Merritt I believe, went to the

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Speaker 1: University of Illinois UH and C. S A. They decided

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Speaker 1: to introduce a browser themselves. That was the Mosaic Browser.

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Speaker 1: It was on Unix. It was also for the the

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Speaker 1: X Windows platform UM and UH there there colleague Alex

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Speaker 1: Todec created a version that could run on Macintosh computer.

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Speaker 1: So this was a browser that could run on cross platforms.

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Speaker 1: Although uh, the appearance of web information vary depending upon

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Speaker 1: what platform you were using, So it wasn't a m

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Speaker 1: a smooth experience across all platforms. It wasn't something that

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Speaker 1: was It wasn't like you were going to get the

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Speaker 1: exact same experience on one machine as on another, but

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Speaker 1: you could get to the information. UH and I had

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Speaker 1: a lot of features that said, apart from the earlier

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Speaker 1: web browsers, like things that we take for granted now,

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Speaker 1: like bookmarks, you know that would being able to to

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Speaker 1: mark a specific web page is something of interest so

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Speaker 1: that you can easily navigate to it in the future.

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Speaker 1: It was really important also things like icons and pictures

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Speaker 1: as opposed to just text, which made it more attractive

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Speaker 1: to look at um and it was free to use.

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Speaker 1: And it's important to mention this beforehand because it turns

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Speaker 1: out a lot of the the stuff they worked on

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Speaker 1: would later find its way into other future web browsers.

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Speaker 1: By ninety nine, market Drissa would partner with Jeff clark

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Speaker 1: and who was the founder of Silicon Graphics. They created

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Speaker 1: Mosaic Communications. It was later renamed to Netscape Communications, and

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Speaker 1: they started to develop a web browser for the consumer market.

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Speaker 1: So that's gonna sound really familiar to anyone who was,

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Speaker 1: you know, using computers around the time of the first

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Speaker 1: browser Wars. Netscape should definitely ring a bell. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is around the time that that Windows is basically about

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Speaker 1: to go gold and and go on sales, So we're

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Speaker 1: still in Windows three point one era at the moment,

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Speaker 1: I think, and uh, and I mean the Netscape navigator,

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Speaker 1: I think was the very I might have used Mosaic

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Speaker 1: when I was in college, come to think of it,

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Speaker 1: But I'm pretty sure. I quickly transition to Netscape Navigator

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Speaker 1: and that became my browser of choice in those days. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't ask you, Nate, what browser do

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Speaker 1: you typically use when you almost everything? So you are

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Speaker 1: you are clearly a Mac owner. I am a Mac owner.

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Speaker 1: I I love Safari because I use almost no add

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Speaker 1: ons at all, because I just want speed and fast

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Speaker 1: and I needed to think everything, and so far he's

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Speaker 1: always work really well for me. That makes sense. I

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Speaker 1: I detest Safari with a passion that burns brighter than

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Speaker 1: the thousand explaining funds. But it's mostly because I don't

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Speaker 1: use a Mac. If I did use a Mac, then, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're in the Apple infrastructure, it's amazing. If you're

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Speaker 1: all in, it's phenomenal. If you're only kind of sort

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Speaker 1: of in, it gets really irritating really quickly. But then

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Speaker 1: I'm all in on the Google infrastructure, so I use Chrome. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's the difference, you see, because the browser is the

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Speaker 1: thing you use the most, I would imagine, and so

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Speaker 1: if your phone is the thing that you carry and

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Speaker 1: use the most in the day, then it stands to

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Speaker 1: reason that you're going to want to use a browser

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Speaker 1: that worked best on a phone, right, and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of peeking ahead to some of the issues with Internet explore.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, so we get the n c s A

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Speaker 1: licensing the commercial rights to Mosaic to a company that

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Speaker 1: was called at the time, spy Glass. The company no

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Speaker 1: longer exists, so that should tell you how things turn

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Speaker 1: out in the future. Spy Glass ended up licensing that

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Speaker 1: same technology to other companies, including Microsoft, So the Mosaic

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Speaker 1: code ends up making its way to Microsoft um and

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Speaker 1: that was really important to Microsoft because, as Nate was saying,

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Speaker 1: they were preparing Windows for launch and they really wanted

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Speaker 1: to have a component in there that would be a

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Speaker 1: web browser, and they had decided that it made more

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Speaker 1: sense to license that technology from someone else rather than

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Speaker 1: trying to develop it in house. So that's what led

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Speaker 1: them to spy Glass and licensing the Mosaic code. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back with more of this classic episode of tech

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Speaker 1: stuff after this quick break October, before and Escape would

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Speaker 1: release a beta version of their project, which was codenamed

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Speaker 1: Mozilla that will become important later to It was designated

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Speaker 1: zero point nine six b uh. I decided early on

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Speaker 1: that when I we started looking at the actual builds

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Speaker 1: of Internet Explorer. We're gonna look at whole numbers only,

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Speaker 1: because otherwise the path leads to madness. You mean you

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Speaker 1: how going to consider Chrome Version twenty six point nine

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Speaker 1: point six point three six four was a seminal release.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was beautiful, really, I mean that the

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Speaker 1: fact that it improves so much upon the press accessor

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Speaker 1: that came out earlier that same day is phenomenal. But no,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to skip it. Um. Yeah, So we move

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Speaker 1: on to to August. That is the day Microsoft released

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Speaker 1: the Windows operating system. Uh man, I still remember the

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Speaker 1: commercials for Windows they had. They had this little band,

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Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones, that had a song called start Me

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Speaker 1: Up that was played during the Windows nine commercials. Because

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Speaker 1: that was also the introduction of the start button on Windows.

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Speaker 1: Uh the little button that wouldn't quit or people wouldn't

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Speaker 1: let the little button quit. And they introduced a web

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Speaker 1: browser which they named Internet Explorer. Made a lot of sense,

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Speaker 1: it was it was, in fact, a way to navigate

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Speaker 1: through the Internet, specifically the World Wide Web. But this

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Speaker 1: is this is the point I just interject here because

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Speaker 1: this is the thing that I've always hated about Internet

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Speaker 1: Explorer is that it's a web browser, right, why is

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Speaker 1: it not cold Web Explorer. I think uh, I think

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Speaker 1: they were afraid they might have, you know, some sort

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Speaker 1: of confusion with spiders or something. I don't know, Nate,

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Speaker 1: It's it confuses me to but yeah, Internet Explorer one

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Speaker 1: point oh came out with Windows. They had an agreement

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Speaker 1: with spy Glass, which was incredibly clever. Some might call

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Speaker 1: it sneaky and underhanded. Their agreement with spy Glass. So

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Speaker 1: Spyglass makes the the code, the technology that Internet Explorer

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Speaker 1: runs on Internet Explorer. The agreement with Spyglass was that

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Speaker 1: Microsoft would pay a quarterly fee to spy Glass. All right,

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Speaker 1: that's cool, and they also agreed to share royalties for

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Speaker 1: Internet Explorer. But Microsoft also decided to bundle Internet Explorer

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Speaker 1: with Windows, so Internet Explore itself wasn't on sale and

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Speaker 1: so if you're not selling it, you can't make royalties,

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Speaker 1: which means they didn't have to share any money from

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Speaker 1: the Windows sales to spy Glass. Yeah. Pretty sneaky. Um.

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Speaker 1: That would end up biting them a little bit later,

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Speaker 1: but at any rate, at the time they were just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we really scored on this. Now when they started only

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Speaker 1: six Microsoft employees. According to every source, I saw only

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Speaker 1: six people in Microsoft. We're actually working on Internet Explorer,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of hard to believe today. Um And

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Speaker 1: at the time, the web was not what you and

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Speaker 1: I are used to. It had about twenty basic tags

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Speaker 1: and HTML that allowed you to construct pages and change

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Speaker 1: the style things like tables and and the font size,

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So it's really really basic. And

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Speaker 1: if you ever look at screenshots of old browsers at

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Speaker 1: old web pages, I mean it mostly looks like the

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Speaker 1: blandest Wikipedia page you have ever seen, with no pictures

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. A lot of the early ones

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Speaker 1: don't have any pictures on them because if you did

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Speaker 1: put a picture on it, then you were shooting yourself

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Speaker 1: in the foot. Most of us did not have any

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Speaker 1: fast connection to any kind of networks, so accessing a

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Speaker 1: website with pictures meant that you would start, you know,

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Speaker 1: you navigate to the page, walk away from your computer

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Speaker 1: for ten minutes, and then come back to see if

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Speaker 1: the pictures at all loaded. I remember it well. I

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Speaker 1: particularly remember it when I was trying to view pictures

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Speaker 1: on the now defunct page cats scan, where people would

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Speaker 1: use flatbed scanners to scan the undersides of their cats,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, you I could actually walk away and be

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Speaker 1: very British and make a cup of tea while waiting

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Speaker 1: for the photo of the cat to arrive on my computer.

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Speaker 1: I guess this is the point where I I I

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Speaker 1: mentioned that Nate has too particular great passions in life,

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Speaker 1: which include metal and cats. Yes, and the other ones,

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Speaker 1: but they are the ones I am known for. It

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Speaker 1: seems those are the those are the two I whenever

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Speaker 1: I hear if you think from you on social media,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a probably at chance it's going to

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Speaker 1: fall into one of those two categories. Yeah. So there's

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Speaker 1: still quite a few other things, but they don't they don't.

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Speaker 1: They don't hit as high as slice on the pie chart. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very true, very true. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: about the limitations of HTML that were that was a

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Speaker 1: particular are thorn in the sides of early web browsers

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Speaker 1: and web users was that the limitations meant people had

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Speaker 1: to find creative ways around those limitations to create rich

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Speaker 1: user experiences. I don't think did they ever use that

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Speaker 1: term in the UK, the rich user experience experience? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean we we probably heard it quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember it particularly, but I imagine it was

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Speaker 1: there amongst all the other ones like zip drives and right,

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Speaker 1: all right, Uh, the rich user experience. That was something

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Speaker 1: where the idea was that you wanted to create a

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Speaker 1: a an experience for the user that went beyond just

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Speaker 1: simple text lines and pictures. So one of the earliest

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Speaker 1: ones would be middies that would loop and there'd be

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Speaker 1: no way to stop them. Uh do you remember those? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I do remember those, Yes, middies, My goodness, middies. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So just the days of my sp ace where you

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Speaker 1: would go to someone's MySpace page. I mean this, this

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00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 1: that goes beyond what we're talking about here. But even then,

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Speaker 1: oh the not not. I'm not sad to see those

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Speaker 1: days go. However, what it meant was that people had

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Speaker 1: to create software that would be a plug in, an

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Speaker 1: enhancement to a web browser to allow users to access

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Speaker 1: certain types of content, largely streaming content, whether it was

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Speaker 1: audio or video. So if you had a web browser

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Speaker 1: in those days, you had to often enhance it with

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Speaker 1: these plug ins, which made the browsers clung here slower.

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Speaker 1: They they required more memory in those days. Also, memory

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Speaker 1: was not as um plentiful as it is today computer memory,

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Speaker 1: So your whole computer would start to run more slowly

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Speaker 1: if you tried to access anything that had any kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, video or flash animation. Flash is another example.

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Speaker 1: Some plug ins that you had to have in order

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Speaker 1: to get more out of the web pages. We would

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Speaker 1: not see advances to HTML for a while. That would

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Speaker 1: address is the whole point of HTML five is to

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Speaker 1: take away the need for all these different plug ins

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Speaker 1: that often can become security vulnerabilities. UM. The idea being

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Speaker 1: that this way we can support those those different functions

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Speaker 1: natively within HTML and not have to have a Swiss

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Speaker 1: Army knife style web browser where you've added all these

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Speaker 1: extra features. UM. Anyway, the first version of Internet Explorer

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Speaker 1: was a thousand bare bones as you can get, and

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Speaker 1: the second one came out November twenty second nine. So

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Speaker 1: if you remember I said the first one came out August,

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Speaker 1: I E two comes out November twenty that that's an

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Speaker 1: incredibly narrow window for an entire version upgrade. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's uh fast does not really go into it. This

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Speaker 1: one was for when ninety five and Windows NT three

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Speaker 1: point five and Windows INT four point oh. So that

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Speaker 1: means within three months you get a full version upgrade.

385
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Speaker 1: But that was actually kind of typical in the early

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Speaker 1: days because the browsers were being We're getting more and

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Speaker 1: more advanced very quickly. Everyone was really interested in this.

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Speaker 1: This was the days when the media was starting to

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Speaker 1: take notice of the World Wide Web and it was

390
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Speaker 1: going beyond just uh, the the governments and colleges and

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Speaker 1: research facilities. So with that focus, you wanted to really

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Speaker 1: get your browser too, to be uh, you know, a

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Speaker 1: destination people wanted to go to. The people needed this technology.

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Speaker 1: There was another feature that they thought people needed an

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Speaker 1: Internet to explore it too. I remember what's delicious cookies?

396
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Speaker 1: Oh you know what? Those are important? Um, they have

397
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: been misused and that is unfortunate. They can cause huge problems.

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Speaker 1: They are definitely lee one of those things you've got

399
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: to worry about if you are concerned about Internet privacy. However,

400
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: that being said, it's also nice to be able to

401
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: navigate to a website. You're in the middle of doing

402
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: something you have to shut down and leave. When you

403
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: navigate to that same website on that same machine, you

404
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: can pick up right where you left off. That's thanks

405
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Speaker 1: to cookies. So cookies are just really short, short bits

406
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Speaker 1: of data, really just a short, short range of bits

407
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: if you want to get down to it, and the

408
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: act as kind of identifier and a placeholder so that

409
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Speaker 1: when you start a session with a web page the website,

410
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Speaker 1: the web server can keep track of who you are

411
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Speaker 1: and what you are doing, so that if you do

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Speaker 1: leave for some reason and come back, you can pick

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Speaker 1: up where you left off. So in retail, for example,

414
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Speaker 1: if I put something in my shopping cart but I

415
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Speaker 1: haven't completed the transaction and I leave the website, the

416
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Speaker 1: next time I go back to that website, I might

417
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Speaker 1: still have that item in the shopping cart, because the

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Speaker 1: cookies tell the server, hey, it's that same dude who

419
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Speaker 1: just can't commit to purchasing this squeaky twy for his

420
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 1: dog to be a great example for me UM. So

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00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: cookies definitely had their place, but obviously have been They've

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00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: got a lot of there's a lot of bad rap

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Speaker 1: about cookies too, because of things like the idea of

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Speaker 1: tracking um web browsing activity and and sharing things that

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00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: you might have thought were private otherwise. But they come

426
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: from a good place, they do, and they are useful.

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Speaker 1: Let's be honest, they are very useful. The web would

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Speaker 1: not be what the web is now in a bad way.

429
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Speaker 1: I think we're it not for cookies. Yeah, I mean,

430
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: they just allowed the Internet to be more personal. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

431
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Speaker 1: You you know, the idea that that your experience on

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Speaker 1: the web is at least in some part a fine

433
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: by and tuned to you, so that you have the

434
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: experience you want, or at least if you're working at it,

435
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: you can have the experience you want. I wish that

436
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: it were effortless, so that just through the use of

437
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: the web it becomes the way you want. For some people,

438
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 1: it becomes the way it is rather than the way

439
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: they want it to be because they don't know the

440
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: tricks to, you know, kind of tune it as much

441
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: as they would like. But without cookies, it would not

442
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: be possible at all. You would just have the same

443
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: experience every single time you logged into any web page.

444
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: It would be as if you were there day zero,

445
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: like that's the first time you had ever visited it,

446
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: and you would have to go through whatever it is,

447
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, like whether it's logging into a service or

448
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: adding things into a list, whatever that might be. You

449
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: would have to do that every single time if it

450
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: weren't for things like cookies. Yeah. Um, the next version

451
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: of Internet Explorer number three, if you're keeping count, wouldn't

452
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: them along until August thirteen, nineteen. So they went almost

453
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: a full year, unthinkable without coming out with a new version.

454
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: This was the first one to really start to get

455
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: some traction in the web browser wars because uh, the

456
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: other browsers had. First of all, you gotta keep in

457
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: mind it was still a pretty small piece of the

458
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: overall population. Pie. There weren't that many people online on

459
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: the web in n UM there were, There were lots,

460
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: but if you compared to the number of people who weren't,

461
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: it was a tiny number. Uh. That being said, there

462
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: were things like like um Netscape and Mosaic and other

463
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: browsers that were already They already had a good share

464
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: of the market, so I was just starting to pick up.

465
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: By the end of ninety seven, it accounted for about

466
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: a third of the browser market, just under round. And

467
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: that gets us into the browser wars, which are like

468
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: Star Wars but more boring. Um. But in my notes,

469
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: I wrote, many Buffon's died to bring us this information.

470
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm so out of Uh, my depth to even understand

471
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: why that is funny. Special guy who hasn't even seen

472
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: old stal Wars films. Yeah, it hurts me to hear that.

473
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: But then again, my former, my, my original co host,

474
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: Chris Palette, I don't think even to this day has

475
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: seen the movie Jaws. So he's he killed a small

476
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: piece of me that day when he revealed that information.

477
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: But that, of course is a quote. We've got more

478
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: to say in this classic episode of tech stuff after

479
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: these quick messages. Uh. Internet Explorer three was also the

480
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: first browser that did not use the Spyglass source code.

481
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: There were elements of Spyglass technology in there, so that

482
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: was still listed in the about page on Internet Internet Explorer.

483
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: They kind of had a you know, a licensed little

484
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: bit about how some of the technology was licensed from them,

485
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: but they had moved away from Spyglass to start working

486
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: on a different source code to underlie Internet Explorer. And

487
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: it was the first one to introduce internet mail to

488
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer and News one point zero and the Windows

489
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: address Book. Neither of those things would matter for very long,

490
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: but they were included in the Internet Explorer three. Uh.

491
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: And they added in the support for lots of the

492
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: plug ins that Netscape could use, and that goes back

493
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: to what I was talking about earlier. It increased the

494
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: ability for Internet Explorer to access certain features that otherwise

495
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: would just be unplayable. Get a little red X saying

496
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: this doesn't work here, Um I remember it, well, yeah

497
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: this also. By the way, one of the reasons why

498
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: I love the development of HTML five and the conversion

499
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: to HTML Live is that I also remember the days

500
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: of those plug ins, leading to lots of opportunities for

501
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: hackers to create fake uh alert messages saying hey, I

502
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: know you want to see this, but you can't unless

503
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: you first download the plug in or up update your

504
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: plug in so that you can watch it. But in fact,

505
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: instead of it actually being a plug in, it was

506
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: a virus that you were agreeing to download and installed

507
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: to your machine. So you get one of those messages saying, oh,

508
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: you want to watch this, but you need to update

509
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: to the latest version of real Player for example. Uh.

510
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: And it wasn't actually a real Player update or or

511
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: installed file. It was an install file for some malware

512
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: that ran that was rampant at a certain point in

513
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: the history of the Internet. So the the slow migration

514
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: away from the plug in days is something that I've

515
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: been waiting for for a long time because I get

516
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: tired of answering those questions. Um. I E three also

517
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: and for cascading style sheets. Now this again very technical

518
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: part of it, but it's basically an easy way to

519
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: define the style the appearance of a web page. One

520
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: of the things that was a big challenge in the

521
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: early days of web browsers was making sure that the

522
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: web page was going to show up the way the

523
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: web designer intended it. Um, Nate, did you ever have

524
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: to build a website without the use of a whizzywig

525
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: editor or something where you had to do it in

526
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: like a text editor? Um I told myself to do it. Um, yeah,

527
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: I do. I do that in text and my my

528
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: girlfriend Kate actually still does. She She she can type

529
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: responsive web stuff out in by hand. It's quite impressive.

530
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: That is impressive. The first web pages I ever built,

531
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: which I am not going to share, so don't even

532
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: bother looking for them, because they're awful. If they do

533
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: still exist somewhere out there, I am embarrassed by their presence.

534
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: But at any rate, I also did that the old

535
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: school way, where you had a text editor, you typed

536
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: in all the markup language and the actual content of

537
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: the web page. Then you would have to save it,

538
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: then open up a browser and navigate to the the

539
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: proper address of that page, which probably wasn't even published

540
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: online yet, it was just native on your computer, look

541
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: to see if it was actually showing up properly in

542
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: the web browser you were using, and then if anything wasn't,

543
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: you had to quit out, go back into your text editor,

544
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: change things there, and do it all over again. The

545
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: bad thing in the early days is that even if

546
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: you've got it to work properly on whichever web browser

547
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: you were using, there was no guarantee that someone else's

548
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: web browser, a different web browser, was going to show

549
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: it in that same way. So you might take entire

550
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: you know, hours to painstakingly create and craft a web page,

551
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: and if anyone was using a different web browser, they

552
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: might get a totally different experience anyway, so that you

553
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: don't know how easy you've got it with you a

554
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: dynamic websites and your responsive designs. You know, back in

555
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: those days, we were working out how to write out

556
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: tables in text editors, or there was this one piece

557
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: of software that I remember getting for free at some point,

558
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: and it used d HTML and it was actually it

559
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: was whizzy Wig, but it was it was like dragon

560
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: drop and all the positions were sort of relative, so

561
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: you could have objects anywhere and it was brilliant. Right

562
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: for those of you who don't remember, don't know what

563
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: that acronym stands for, it's what you see is what

564
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: you get. The idea being that you have an editor

565
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: that lets you edit within like you you were actually

566
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: seeing what the web page looks like as you're building it,

567
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: so you don't have to do the swap between code

568
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: and the appearance of the page. It's all there like

569
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: you might be able. Most of them have an HTML

570
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: editor components, so you can switch it to HTML and

571
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: just see the markup language and type in that way

572
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: if you want to. But a lot of them have

573
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: it where they are a different template that are built out.

574
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: Their entire business is based on that, and some of

575
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: them do it incredibly well. I use them, in fact,

576
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: when I'm building web pages these days, because while I

577
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: remember doing HTML coding, uh, that was also when there

578
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: were very few tags, So I don't think I could

579
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: do it today because it would look like a website

580
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: from if I were to build one today, Uh, that way,

581
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: and and while that would be comedic, it would not

582
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: be very useful. Um, Internet Explorer three us also when

583
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: we got a very important development with I E. That

584
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: is the logo of the lower case, so that you

585
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: get that icon the lower case that represents Internet Explorer.

586
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: I don't know what our world would be like if

587
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: they had gone with something else the web. Maybe you

588
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: know it's madness, Nate's mad. Yes, that's that. That would

589
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: have led to great strife in the world. Uh and

590
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: I days after I E three came out, security experts

591
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: discovered a backdoor vulnerability that they called the Princeton word

592
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 1: macro virus loophole, so it had a very catchy name.

593
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: Backdoor vulnerabilities are seriously bad news no matter what software

594
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: you're talking about. That's the sort of vulnerability that gives

595
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: an attacker access to your machine at whatever level you

596
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: are logged in at. So, if for example, you had

597
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: your Windows machine, you are logged in as an admin

598
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: on that machine. Let's say that's the level of access

599
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: you have, and if this is your personal computer, then yes,

600
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: that's the access you have. This backdoor would give people

601
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: that access, which is bad news. I mean, they could

602
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: make your computer do whatever they wanted to at that point,

603
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: install software that you didn't intend to have installed, or

604
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: direct your computer to attack other other computers. Mostly I

605
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: would just I would just mostly open people's CD draws,

606
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: um for things out, leave messages on the screen, you know,

607
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: fire up the Simpsons dust game, that kind of stuff.

608
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: I do know, I do know. I have seen that happen.

609
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: I remember seeing someone who had UM allowed that and

610
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: their c D drawer the little the little drive door

611
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: would open and close over and over and there, like

612
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening, except what's happened is you've

613
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: downloaded something you shouldn't have that has handed over control

614
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: to your computers. So we're gonna start in safe mode

615
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: and we'll begin from there and see if we can

616
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: fix this. Yeah. And and it's still buns like buddy

617
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: while we're at it. Yeah yeah. Man. Well, in all,

618
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer would account for about a third of the

619
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: browlser market, like I was talking about. That's where they

620
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: really started to get traction. And in ninete, the n

621
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: c s A stops supporting the development of Mosaic, so

622
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: the the web browser that really started all this off.

623
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: Uh in a real way, had finally kind of run

624
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: out of steam on the development side, But the the

625
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: browsers that still use that basic technology and had continued

626
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: to develop it. They they kept going, like Netscape Navigator

627
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: continued on, although of course they had they had forked

628
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: off of the Mosaic source code, so it was not

629
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: the exact same stuff that was Mosaic. It had changed

630
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: and evolved on its own. It's kind of like if

631
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: you look at an evolutionary tree and you see where

632
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 1: two different species have forked same sort of thing here,

633
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: except we're talking about computer programs obviously. And was also

634
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: when Spyglass threatened Microsoft with a contractual audit because of

635
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: that quarterly fee royalty arrangement we talked about earlier. The

636
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: fact that they were getting this quarterly fee but not

637
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: really any royalties had kind of upset Spyglass because they said, well,

638
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: when we agreed to this, the implication was that Internet

639
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: Explorer or whatever the web browser was going to be

640
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: called it that time, was going to be a separate product.

641
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: It was gonna be something sold by Microsoft instead of

642
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: bundled with Windows UM and ended up prompting Microsoft to

643
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: settle with spy Glass. I think the sum I see

644
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: most frequently is eight million dollars, which it's not a

645
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: small amount of money, but when you compare it to

646
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: some of the huge deals going on seemingly casually in

647
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: the world of tech, and especially the world of the Internet,

648
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 1: it's a pittance tiny mountain. And for Microsoft, yeah, oh yes,

649
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: especially for Microsoft, eight million dollars it's probably what they

650
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: have in between the cushions of their executive lounge couch.

651
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: You just sort through there and kind of spare eight

652
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: or nine million dollars, I'm sure, um, which I think,

653
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: if you convert into English currency, is approximately fifteen pounds.

654
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely sure. I'm not good with that sort

655
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: of thing, but I know it's like the exchange rates

656
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: old messed up at the moment. All I know is

657
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: that whenever I visit London, I'm always looking for deals

658
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: because I realized I don't know. I honestly don't know

659
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: how much money I'm spending right now. Um. Internet Explorer

660
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: four comes out in that is U marketed with the

661
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: slogan the Web the way you want it, uh, which

662
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: I guess is true if you don't want it to

663
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: be particularly good. Um. It also handled rich text files

664
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: and plain text email in their internet mail and news program,

665
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: which was now Outlook express For. It's called Outlook express for,

666
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: but it really was the first Outlook Express. This is

667
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: where we run into Microsoft's habit of numbering things in

668
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: a way that probably makes sense to someone in Microsoft

669
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: and no sense to anyone else. Like, I don't know

670
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: why is Windows ten Windows ten when it could have

671
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: been Windows nine, Apart from the fact that calling it

672
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: Windows nine could have caused some confusion with people who

673
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: are running legacy systems that still rely on Windows. I

674
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 1: can in an era in an area, Jonathan, my friend,

675
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: where we have the iPhone five S and the Galaxy

676
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: S five. I think we are in an era where

677
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: we need to have Windows ten and OS ten. Yeah, okay,

678
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: all right, I'm fine with that, I guess I honestly,

679
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: at this point we could just say, all right, letters

680
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: and numbers make no difference in the world of the Internet,

681
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: so just just just go with it. Um, so we

682
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: don't have HTML email support and an Outlook express for,

683
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: they could just do rich text files and plain text emails,

684
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 1: so you didn't get any of the incredibly fun stuff

685
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: like people sending you pictures in the middle of their emails.

686
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: H And what if you're detecting some lackluster enthusiasm in

687
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: my voice, it's because as those jokes only go so

688
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: far with me. So please don't send me emails with

689
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: lots of pictures and them. But first of all, my

690
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: my outlook immediately blocks them unless I tell it to

691
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: allow the photos. But you're just wasting bandwidth. Really, um,

692
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm not a huge fan of those but but obviously

693
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: it makes it look better than it would if it

694
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: were just a rich text file U. And they integrated

695
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: real Player as a streaming media player within Internet Explorer

696
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: for um, do you remember those days, Nate, where yes

697
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: I do. I do, the beautiful days of real Player

698
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: paying inside Internet Explorer. Yes, those those wonderful days. I

699
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: love those days. I'll tell you every interesting Real Player fact.

700
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 1: Real Player used to be brilliant, right real What real

701
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: did was fantastic. It actually made video stream properly back

702
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: in the day. While the player itself might have been

703
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: a clunky mess, the compression they used was genuinely some

704
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: of the most innovative online technology in my opinion. Um.

705
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: The problem is that everything else about it was awful

706
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: and bundled is a plug in also made a clunky experience,

707
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: so it just it just always felt like a poor

708
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: piece of technology. But actually what it did was fantastic. Yeah.

709
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: There was a time where I mean I just remember

710
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: so this this held true for very way too long,

711
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: where there were competing plugins and in order to for

712
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: you to be able to watch video online, it meant

713
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: that you had to have three or four plugins on

714
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: your browser. Because one site would use one format, another

715
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: site would use someone be flash based, someone be uh,

716
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: you know, a real player base. You would have all

717
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: these different competing formats, and you didn't have a lot

718
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: of options of like a one player fits all kind

719
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: of solutions. So it ended up meaning that you had

720
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: to add all these different plugins if you wanted to

721
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: be able to experience all this different media across different sites.

722
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: I don't miss those days at all. I mean Microsoft

723
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: really held onto it for a long time. Silver Light

724
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: was one of those things that when I would encounter

725
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: it online and I would see something like, oh, you

726
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: need to download silver Light to see this. If I

727
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: really do we really are we really still there? Um?

728
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: Can we get beyond that and just have everyone say, Okay,

729
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to be the person to or the entity

730
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: to define what the standard was, but at some point

731
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: I have to admit my approach is not what has

732
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,959
Speaker 1: been considered standard, and I'm going to get on board

733
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: with what everyone else is doing. It wasn't like that

734
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: for a very long time. In fact, you could argue

735
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: it's still not like that with certain types of media.

736
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: But it just made it. It made it no fun really,

737
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: like you would go to a side that, oh, I

738
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: have to add another place in, which again added that vulnerability.

739
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: If you had to add in plug in after plug in,

740
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: eventually you got um, you know, you got conditioned to

741
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: the point where you thought, oh, of course I'm gonna

742
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: need another plug in to see whatever this thing is.

743
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: Never mind the fact that it's a plug in that

744
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: I don't recognize and that I've never you know, heard

745
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: of before. I'll go ahead and install it, and then

746
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: you make your system vulnerable. It's just one of those

747
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: things that was a necessity at the time. And I think, really,

748
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: what what plugins did is they just fueled innovation. You know,

749
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of what is plugging What was a

750
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: plug in back in the day is now either baked

751
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: into the browser or is baked into HTML itself. You know,

752
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: when you think about HTML five supporting new video formats,

753
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: um you know, like web m the Google is behind

754
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, that's something that back in the day you

755
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: would need, you know, a plug in for. You don't

756
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: need those anymore. And it was probably a necessary life cycle,

757
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: that's true. I mean without it, then web pages would

758
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: be e bland and limited and would not be nearly

759
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 1: as important or influential as the web has become over

760
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: the years. I mean, you know, this is also we're

761
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: looking at now. We're looking at the late nineties when

762
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: we're starting to get to a fever pitch of what

763
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: the web could be, uh, you know, which of course

764
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: culminated in and then collapsed with the dot com bubble bursting.

765
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: Um that whole era, everyone was starting to see what

766
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: the web could potentially be. But if we relied simply

767
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: upon what HTML could deliver back in those days, the

768
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: web would have been a lot more you know, utilitarian

769
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: and less interesting. So I definitely agree that the plug

770
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: ins were a necessary part. It was also just as

771
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: living through it. It just was also frustrating. UM I

772
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: for also supported dynamic HTML for the first time, which

773
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 1: allowed for more interactive web pages. Again a rich user

774
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: experience we were talking about earlier. That was an important element,

775
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: and by bumbling Internet Explorer with Windows, Microsoft ends up

776
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: leveraging itself into a sixt in market share of all

777
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: web browsers. This was a huge story. It really turned

778
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: things around, going from an underdog to the major player

779
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: out of all browsers. So not just um, you know

780
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: Mozilla's or or Netscape rather uh netscapes Navigator. Now, if

781
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: you add in all the different competitors, they paled, but

782
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: it was partly because the market share for PCs far

783
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: outweighed other computer platforms, especially for businesses and casual users. Um.

784
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you obviously still had a lot of Unix

785
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: machines running server software and in in various research and

786
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: R and D areas things like that. But if you're

787
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: talking about the average person, they owned a piece. See,

788
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: the Mac was not a competitor really at this time. Uh.

789
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: And that meant that if you were going to buy

790
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: a PC and you had a web browser just bundled

791
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: in with it, it made sense to go ahead and

792
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: use it. In fact, for people who were not really

793
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: savvy with the web that was there. It was it

794
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: was either A O L. Was the web here in

795
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: the US, or it was yeah and it was here too.

796
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: The A Well, some of my first web experiences were

797
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: uh were A O L. The World, garden, YEP, happy,

798
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: happy times, simple. Yeah. Isn't it great when you an

799
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: entity that decides what is and isn't the web for you?

800
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: That makes that makes life so much easier. Stay tuned

801
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 1: for the exciting conclusion of this text of classic episode

802
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: right after we take this break. So this is where

803
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: we get into where micros off runs into some trouble

804
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: because of this policy of lumping Internet Explorer in with

805
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: its operating system. Uh, the United States government brought a

806
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: lawsuit against Microsoft Corporation. In fact, the Department of Justice

807
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: was looking at an antitrust suit saying that the company

808
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: had practiced predatory strategies to push other companies out of

809
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: the web browser market and the operating system market, as

810
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: it turns out, saying that because they had packaged Internet

811
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: Explorer with the operating system, and because the operating system

812
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: was really the only game in town for the most part,

813
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: for operating systems had the majority market share. If you

814
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: were buying a PC more often than not it was

815
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: going to have Windows preloaded on it. They were essentially saying,

816
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: you have stacked the deck against any competing company and

817
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: you're pushing them out, and that's not fair. It's that's

818
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: why we're bringing this ant trust suit against you. This

819
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: was big news and it wasn't the only place where

820
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: Microsoft was having issues that it was also having problems

821
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: in Europe. There were European antitrust suits brought against Microsoft.

822
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: They were actually looking at more interesting things in a way.

823
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: They were looking at how there were also allegations that

824
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,720
Speaker 1: the operating system had been designed so that it worked

825
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: really well with the Internet Explorer and didn't work so

826
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: well with any other browser, almost as if Microsoft had

827
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: taken pains to create an operating system that would on

828
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: purpose decrease the use and utility of competing web browsers.

829
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: And that was a huge red flag. Um, So you

830
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: had these these massive antitrust lawsuits going up against Microsoft

831
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: that wouldn't be resolved for years. I mean, we all

832
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: know these lawsuits can last ages. Uh, And in fact,

833
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: it wouldn't pan out in the US until two thousand one,

834
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: and there would be this enormous settlement, And originally the

835
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: ruling told Microsoft that the Department Justice said, Hey, you're

836
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: gonna have to split your company into two companies. You're

837
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: gonna have to have one that is building the operating

838
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: system business and one that's building the software that exists

839
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: on top of the operating system. But they're gonna have

840
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: to operate as two separate entities because if you package

841
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: them all together, you have an unfair advantage over anyone

842
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: who wants to build software for that operating system. Ultimately,

843
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: that did not happen. I mean, if you are aware

844
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: of Microsoft is a single company hasn't been split. But

845
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: that was originally what the ruling was um and it

846
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: was a huge It was a huge news item in

847
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: the day because anyone who wanted to use any other

848
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: web browser was already mad at Microsoft for appearing to

849
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: make it more difficult to use those web browsers. So

850
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: I remember those days well too, because already at that

851
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: point I was not a huge And like I said,

852
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: I had been using Netscape Navigator as my early web

853
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: browser for years and years, partly because when I first

854
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: started using the web, I was a college student. So

855
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: I got Netscape Navigator for free because it was a

856
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: college application. Um, I didn't have to purchase it. In fact,

857
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: I was I was pretty stingy about purchasing one for

858
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 1: a long time. I was like, why should I pay

859
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: for this thing that I've had for free for so long? Um,

860
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: And I didn't like the way Internet Explorer rendered web

861
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: pages or the user interface or anything. So I was

862
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: very upset at this time when I heard about about this.

863
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean, this was I Internet Explorer this point was

864
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: actually available on the Mac. This was one of the

865
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: last ones actually that was available in the mic I

866
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: E five I think was the very last one they made. Yeah,

867
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: so you could actually you could actually use Internet Explorer

868
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: on the Macintosh at this time. Yeah. To be fair, though,

869
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: the Mac was not not what it is today in

870
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: those things this was. This is that These are also

871
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: the days where Steve Jobs had been forced out of

872
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: Apple for a while and was just starting to come

873
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: back to redefine what the Mac was. This is almost

874
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: almost exactly the time he came back, and this is

875
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: just before the iMac was released, if not almost depending

876
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: on the particular part of the history where we're on,

877
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: almost month wise at the moment, this is this is

878
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: when that happened. Yeah, so we've got this this lawsuit

879
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: going on. It hasn't starts. I was the the dominant

880
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: web browser, which was not helping Microsoft's case and that lawsuit.

881
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: It was essentially being pointed at a c if if

882
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: people are complaining about how this browser matches up against

883
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: other browsers, how can you argue that the customer satisfaction

884
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: or the desire for this particular web browsers what's driving

885
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: the dominance in the market. It's clearly because it's tied

886
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: so intricately with the operating system. That would be the

887
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: kind of argument that the Department of Justice would level

888
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: against Microsoft. But it was I mean, this was I

889
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: at this point was just so key to Microsoft. Yeah,

890
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: it had like a thousand people working on it at

891
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: that point, just on the browser, from from the six

892
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: people of I E one to the one thousand and

893
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars being being invested every quarter into

894
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: or actually every year at this point into Internet Explorer.

895
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: This is then the I E five days because that

896
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: came out in March. Um they had had a couple

897
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: of preview versions come out. Bute was when they officially

898
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: launched it. Uh, this was the one that would come

899
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: with Windows second edition as well as Windows two thousand

900
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: and the dot com boom. I mean, this is a

901
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: thousand people working on Internet Explorer, a hundred million dollars

902
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: a year. This is this is the these are the

903
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: months just before the dot com bubble burst. And it's

904
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: also the this is one where if you were a user,

905
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't have noticed a huge difference in the

906
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: interface between four and five, but a lot of the

907
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: stuff that was going on behind the scenes right the

908
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: back end of the browser had been upgraded, which prompted

909
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: Paul four ought to write that I E five point

910
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: oh is I E four point oh done right? So,

911
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: in other words, the the things that were innovative in

912
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: Internet Explorer four but we're still kind of clunky, were

913
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: now much more smooth in the new version. So I

914
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: E five was seen as a big step up, um,

915
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: and that was really important because we had this huge

916
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: boom of innovation in the dot com world, which, as

917
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: we all know, was not sustainable uh long term anyway,

918
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: but it was. There was there was no greater moment

919
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: of focus in the media upon the Internet than at

920
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: this time. I would argue even today as as instrumental

921
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: and important as the Internet is, and as we have

922
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: all these different ways of accessing it, including applications that

923
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: can work with the web or separately from the Web,

924
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: things like Twitter and Facebook. I would say that in

925
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: this time, the late nineties going right into two thousand,

926
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: that was when we were at the peak of focus

927
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: on the Internet, specifically on the World Wide Web. Um

928
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: and uh, you know this is it's funny because if

929
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: you look at the news reports from a couple of

930
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,240
Speaker 1: years before this, that was when you had like the

931
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: the stuff that was caught on camera but not originally broadcast,

932
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: where you had news anchors kind of talking about what

933
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: is this web thing? What is that? What's that a

934
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: symbol for? What is email? Like it was exactly. It

935
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: went from that to everyone now has to have a website.

936
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: If you were a business, you had to have a website.

937
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: Didn't matter if you had anything important to put on there,

938
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: but you had to have a website. Um, you know

939
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: that is that was the day and and I E

940
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: five was the perfect browser at the perfect time to

941
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: really you know, tap into that, which is is good

942
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: because I E six would be at almost degree turn

943
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 1: from that. So so before that just one little sad

944
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: bit of news. On March two thousand, Spyglass was bought

945
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: out by Open TV, and Spyglass became no more. Now.

946
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: That was, of course, the company that had licensed the

947
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: mosaic technology from the n c s A and then

948
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: further licensed at to Microsoft. It no longer existed as

949
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: a entity of its own at that point. That was

950
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: the story of Internet Explorer Part one. We will continue

951
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: the story next week in the next classic episode. If

952
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: you have suggestions for topics I should cover in future

953
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: episodes of tech Stuff, please reach out on Twitter. The

954
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: handle for the show is text Stuff hs W and

955
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you again really soon, YEA. Text Stuff

956
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: is an I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from

957
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

958
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.