WEBVTT - Rethinking Ambition 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:34.596 Ambition is a force, and you can harness that force 0:00:34.676 --> 0:00:38.916 for good, or you can harness that force in a 0:00:38.956 --> 0:00:41.396 way that takes you away from yourself. 0:00:42.356 --> 0:00:46.316 For so long, writer Jennifer Romalini prided herself on her 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:49.716 work ethic. She climbed to the top of every corporate 0:00:49.836 --> 0:00:53.476 ladder and worked herself to the bone. But after years 0:00:53.516 --> 0:00:57.436 of burning herself out, she realized her ambition had turned toxic. 0:00:57.916 --> 0:01:00.956 I've really looked to the outside world like I had everything, 0:01:01.516 --> 0:01:05.836 but I was already at the top of that going wait, 0:01:05.956 --> 0:01:09.076 is this it? Because I had not been building in 0:01:09.796 --> 0:01:14.556 my personal and life resume at the same pace that 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:16.556 I had been building my professional resume. 0:01:20.436 --> 0:01:24.556 On today's show, rethinking ambition and what we can be 0:01:24.756 --> 0:01:29.436 ambitious for, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:32.276 change of plans, a show about who we are and 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:47.196 who we become in the face of a big change. 0:01:47.356 --> 0:01:49.916 I first came across Jennifer's story when I read her 0:01:49.956 --> 0:01:53.676 memoir Ambition Monster. The book covers a lot of ground. 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:58.236 She dives deep into unresolved childhood trauma, romantic relationships that 0:01:58.276 --> 0:02:02.396 turn sour, and the costs of chronic overwork. I was 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:05.956 most struck by the way Jennifer writes about ambition and 0:02:06.076 --> 0:02:09.316 how a big and unexpected change can make us rethink 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:12.756 our relationship with it. Jennifer grew up in a working 0:02:12.756 --> 0:02:16.636 class family just outside of Philadelphia, and in her family, 0:02:16.876 --> 0:02:19.396 ambition meant one thing survival. 0:02:20.196 --> 0:02:23.676 Both of my parents did not graduate high school and 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:28.676 they worked to survive. My dad was in the produce business. 0:02:28.676 --> 0:02:31.876 He started out working as in a grocery store in 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:36.036 the produce department, and he then was like, oh, you know, 0:02:36.676 --> 0:02:39.916 there's a big markup here on lettuce. I think I 0:02:39.956 --> 0:02:43.276 could sell it for cheaper and still make a profit. 0:02:44.316 --> 0:02:47.956 So he started out selling cases of produce on a 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:52.356 stand on the street. He built that business into a truck. 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:56.516 He eventually turned that into a store, and he turned 0:02:56.556 --> 0:03:01.436 it into force stores around South Jersey and Philadelphia. It 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:06.316 took effort and force to build that business and to 0:03:06.356 --> 0:03:10.876 get us out of what was, you know, poverty. So 0:03:12.876 --> 0:03:16.916 I saw work as an act of force. I saw 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:21.516 work as survival. I saw work as something that made 0:03:21.556 --> 0:03:25.156 you feel safe. This was all wrapped up in ambition. 0:03:25.356 --> 0:03:30.596 For me, ambition was wrapped up in survival. So the 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:34.916 idea of work and compulsive work and never stopping work 0:03:35.076 --> 0:03:38.756 and having an incredible work ethic and never letting anyone 0:03:38.796 --> 0:03:41.996 down was just built into my bones. 0:03:42.396 --> 0:03:46.396 Yeah. I read that you grew up loving Sassy magazine 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:48.716 and it's what made you want to become a writer. 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:49.876 Is that right? 0:03:50.116 --> 0:03:52.676 Yes, If you were a girl in the eighties and 0:03:52.756 --> 0:03:57.116 the nineties, Sasse was just this life raft. It was 0:03:57.316 --> 0:04:00.236 so different than like seventeen or teen magazine because it 0:04:00.276 --> 0:04:04.556 really was teaching you independence, and it was teaching you 0:04:05.436 --> 0:04:08.876 like a sense of autonomy that nothing else really was. 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:12.196 I didn't want you to be there just for sort 0:04:12.236 --> 0:04:15.236 of the male gaze. It wasn't teaching you makeup tips 0:04:15.316 --> 0:04:19.036 per se. You know. It was about music and culture 0:04:19.316 --> 0:04:21.836 and issues that girls were dealing with and I and 0:04:21.956 --> 0:04:26.476 also it really put forward the personalities of its writers, 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:30.276 and so I became obsessed with those writers. And you know, 0:04:30.316 --> 0:04:32.076 they all lived in New York, which was a place 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.156 I kind of knew I wanted to live. I was like, Oh, 0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:37.676 I'd like to be a magazine editor someday or writer. 0:04:38.756 --> 0:04:41.116 I know that you started working in restaurants when you 0:04:41.156 --> 0:04:43.996 were thirteen, and you ended up working in restaurants for 0:04:43.996 --> 0:04:47.836 a decade, but you held on to this hope, right 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:50.596 like in the back of your mind that one day 0:04:50.636 --> 0:04:52.716 you might want to become that writer, the one that 0:04:52.756 --> 0:04:56.196 you had read about in Sassy magazine. So tell me 0:04:56.316 --> 0:04:58.636 how you started on the path towards that dream. 0:04:59.476 --> 0:05:03.196 If there's no model in your life for the life 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:07.036 that you want, it's so difficult to conceive of it 0:05:07.236 --> 0:05:11.556 because you cannot conceive of how you get from where 0:05:11.596 --> 0:05:16.036 you are to where you want to be. Because I 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:22.836 had no context for white collar work, creative work, I 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:26.476 just had no context for it. Everyone I knew was 0:05:26.516 --> 0:05:29.716 a blue collar worker, you know, that was just what 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:32.476 we surrounded ourselves with. That was who my parents knew 0:05:33.196 --> 0:05:37.396 and I didn't have. You know, my childhood home was 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:41.596 very chaotic. My parents weren't They did the best they 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:43.716 could with the tools that they had, but they were 0:05:43.716 --> 0:05:47.636 not very intentive. And my parents were teenagers when they 0:05:47.676 --> 0:05:51.796 had me, and like most teenagers, they were reckless and 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:55.276 irresponsible in a lot of ways. And you know, I 0:05:56.796 --> 0:05:58.596 was witnessed to a lot of things I shouldn't have 0:05:58.596 --> 0:06:02.716 been witnessed to. There was violence in our home. There 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:07.076 was some abuse, but more than anything, they just did 0:06:07.156 --> 0:06:12.236 not have the capacity to to my emotional needs, and 0:06:12.316 --> 0:06:14.636 I often felt like I was on my own. I 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.476 was a really sensitive kid. I was a really creative kid. 0:06:18.516 --> 0:06:21.676 It was probably clear very early that I was going 0:06:21.756 --> 0:06:23.956 to take a different path than they did, that I 0:06:23.996 --> 0:06:27.076 was not going to be satisfied with the lives that 0:06:27.116 --> 0:06:30.316 they had, which is already a sort of alienating feeling 0:06:30.356 --> 0:06:32.956 when you feel different from what you grow up around. 0:06:33.036 --> 0:06:37.676 Absolutely right, Yeah, And I wonder whether in making that clear, 0:06:37.996 --> 0:06:41.916 either implicitly or explicitly, they felt rejected by you because 0:06:41.916 --> 0:06:44.276 you were saying the life you're living isn't going to 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:44.916 be enough for me. 0:06:45.596 --> 0:06:48.356 Of course, and I think that for me, what I 0:06:48.396 --> 0:06:50.756 did was I tried to live the life I thought 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:54.516 they wanted me to live. I married young. I married 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:57.956 a man who was working class. I married a man 0:06:58.036 --> 0:07:00.036 who I didn't have a lot in common with, but 0:07:00.156 --> 0:07:02.476 I felt like I should marry. He was a nice man, 0:07:02.516 --> 0:07:07.356 he had a good job. But I felt so suffocated. 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:12.156 I felt so oh, like there was like a cloak 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:15.916 over me because I wasn't living the life that I 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:20.996 really wanted to live, and that I somewhere like in 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:25.516 the back of my mind, thought maybe I could live. Finally, 0:07:25.676 --> 0:07:29.356 I managed to get out of that marriage. And getting 0:07:29.396 --> 0:07:32.556 out of that marriage if you come from any kind 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:35.116 of traditional background, you come from immigrant family, if you 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:38.676 come from a Catholic family, religion, all sorts of things. 0:07:39.076 --> 0:07:44.276 Getting a divorce young especially, it's like, you know, what's 0:07:44.356 --> 0:07:47.836 wrong with you? What are you doing? You know? So 0:07:48.596 --> 0:07:52.116 it took so much courage to make the move to 0:07:52.116 --> 0:07:54.276 get out of a marriage that was not right for 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:58.356 me in my mid twenties, And at that point I 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:01.796 was like, Okay, I'm all in because I already feel 0:08:01.796 --> 0:08:04.076 like such a failure. I had already dropped out of college, 0:08:04.116 --> 0:08:05.916 I had already gotten a divorce. So by the time 0:08:05.956 --> 0:08:09.036 I'm twenty five, I'm a college dropout and a deva 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:11.556 or say, I have no money to my name, I'm 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:15.676 waiting tables. I feel like my life is over, which 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:18.276 is ridiculous at twenty five, but that's why I felt. 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:22.476 I think the fact that I had sort of made 0:08:22.476 --> 0:08:24.836 what I thought were so many mistakes at that point, 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:27.796 and I felt so messed up. I was like, well, 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:31.156 I'm just going to go for it because I had 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:34.876 nothing really to lose. I think I had like less 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:36.876 than one hundred dollars in my bank account when I 0:08:36.916 --> 0:08:42.036 left my husband. So I did. I put myself through school. 0:08:42.396 --> 0:08:44.796 I waited tables full time at night, I went to 0:08:44.836 --> 0:08:48.196 school full time in the day. I had two internships. 0:08:48.196 --> 0:08:50.676 At all times, I was trying to catch up. I 0:08:50.716 --> 0:08:53.716 was just racing and racing and running and running. And 0:08:53.796 --> 0:08:56.156 I knew what I wanted. I wanted to get to 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:58.236 New York and I wanted to work for a magazine. 0:08:59.756 --> 0:09:02.916 You did dozens of interviews and were rejected from them, 0:09:02.916 --> 0:09:06.676 all right, yes, and so eventually you ran out of cash, 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:08.916 you had to move back home, live in your parents' attic. 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:14.396 But then you got your first media job. Tell me 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:15.876 the story about how that happened. 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:20.356 So I didn't know how I was going to be 0:09:20.436 --> 0:09:27.196 perceived by this elite you know, extremely white. I'm white, 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:30.676 but this is like an extreme like elite white, you 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:36.796 know environment, you know, publishing is built on connections and 0:09:36.956 --> 0:09:40.716 on pedigrees, and I didn't have either of those things. 0:09:41.356 --> 0:09:44.676 So at this point, I've been through, you know, dozens 0:09:44.676 --> 0:09:47.796 of interviews, and I get this call about this job 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:51.956 interview in New York for this business magazine. I take 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:57.076 the train up and the interviewer said, what school is this? 0:09:58.076 --> 0:10:00.436 And he pushes my resume over to me, and I 0:10:00.556 --> 0:10:03.476 was like, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't 0:10:03.476 --> 0:10:06.116 mean it's not a good school, and pushed the resume 0:10:06.276 --> 0:10:10.596 back to him and he he had interviewed like ten 0:10:10.676 --> 0:10:14.396 people before me, but because I had such an attitude problem, 0:10:14.476 --> 0:10:17.836 he just wanted that as his assistant. And that's how 0:10:17.876 --> 0:10:20.036 I got the job. It was like a miracle happened. 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:23.076 I was so myself, I was so over it. But 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:26.956 I also clearly like what I had was I had 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:29.436 been around, I knew how to deal with like customers 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:31.956 in a restaurant, like I had a lot more experience 0:10:32.036 --> 0:10:34.356 of being alive than most of the people going for 0:10:34.396 --> 0:10:37.716 an assistant job. I was twenty eight years old. He was, 0:10:37.996 --> 0:10:41.116 you know, interviewing all these twenty two year olds, And 0:10:41.196 --> 0:10:44.076 to be somebody's assistant, you have to put out a 0:10:44.076 --> 0:10:48.156 lot of fires that I was actually perfect for that job, 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:50.516 even without a pedigree. 0:10:50.636 --> 0:10:53.436 So, Jennifer, after that job, you started working for the 0:10:53.476 --> 0:10:56.716 publisher Conde Nast. Right, Yes, you were an editor at 0:10:56.716 --> 0:11:00.796 a fashion magazine called Lucky, and at this point you 0:11:00.836 --> 0:11:05.636 were hobnobbing with celebrities. You're interviewing actresses for photo shoots 0:11:06.596 --> 0:11:08.836 that your dream of what you thought this job would 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:13.196 be like did not actually match your day to day reality. 0:11:13.956 --> 0:11:18.916 So, because entry level jobs pay so little in publishing 0:11:18.996 --> 0:11:21.516 across the board, and I think this is important to know, 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:26.996 most people who work in these jobs come from some 0:11:27.236 --> 0:11:30.836 level of generational wealth, because you can't really afford to 0:11:30.836 --> 0:11:32.996 take these jobs and have a life in New York 0:11:33.036 --> 0:11:39.316 City unless you are subsidized in some way. I was 0:11:39.356 --> 0:11:43.076 subsidized by credit cards and taking on as many side 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:46.036 jobs as I could, you know, writing for the Kitchen 0:11:46.076 --> 0:11:49.516 and Bath magazine, I wrote for the Target in House magazine. 0:11:49.516 --> 0:11:53.076 I was always working three or four jobs just to 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:58.556 support my main job. So the level of wealth at 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:04.716 Conde Nast was something that I had not prepared myself for, 0:12:05.476 --> 0:12:08.316 and I was really a bad fit because of that. 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:12.996 Instead of looking at this environment and thinking, oh, this 0:12:13.076 --> 0:12:16.836 isn't for me, this doesn't work for me, instead I 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:20.756 thought there was something wrong with me, and I had 0:12:20.796 --> 0:12:27.076 to contort and make myself acceptable to a place that 0:12:27.196 --> 0:12:28.396 I didn't respect. 0:12:30.836 --> 0:12:34.236 What do you think prevented you from stepping away in 0:12:34.316 --> 0:12:35.916 that moment? Why didn't you leave? 0:12:37.396 --> 0:12:42.956 At that point, I was so far into the tunnel 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:51.996 of success and those foundations of scarcity and survival, my 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:57.036 father's work, ethic and NonStop work. It was just so 0:12:57.316 --> 0:13:02.396 foundationally who I was. I had not unpacked any of 0:13:02.436 --> 0:13:04.996 it right, any of that, And I think that what 0:13:05.196 --> 0:13:09.476 happened was I was applying that sense of scarce city 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:16.036 and survival onto work that didn't really didn't matter. I 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:19.756 was writing about shoes and belts and lip gloss, right, 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:25.556 but I had that same survival intensity. It was really 0:13:25.596 --> 0:13:29.396 about how do I get to the next level, how 0:13:29.396 --> 0:13:31.916 do I get a promotion, how do I make more money. 0:13:31.996 --> 0:13:34.316 I was in it. I was in it so hard, 0:13:34.356 --> 0:13:38.516 and to have walked away it wouldn't have made sense 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:41.036 for a resume. And I needed that resume to make 0:13:41.116 --> 0:13:43.836 sense because I was climbing a ladder and I was 0:13:44.356 --> 0:13:46.636 very strategic about climbing that ladder. 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:53.196 You kept climbing the ladder, and you ended up achieving 0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:56.396 management roles like you were very successful, and eventually you 0:13:56.436 --> 0:14:00.316 got married, you had a child. From what I've read, 0:14:00.356 --> 0:14:02.676 it seems like it was during this period of your 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:07.916 life where your workaholism took a turn for the worse. Absolutely, 0:14:08.236 --> 0:14:11.156 can you paint me and pay picture of what an 0:14:11.236 --> 0:14:14.676 average day looked like for you, So, your your mother, 0:14:14.796 --> 0:14:18.316 your spouse, and you're also working. What you say like 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:21.076 sixty hours a week? Is that right? Yeah? 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:23.796 Sixty sixty more and more as much as I could work. 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:28.756 I was working. So an average day looked like, wake 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:33.876 up at five am, breastfeed, shower, change, check my email, 0:14:34.036 --> 0:14:39.596 answer emails, breastfeed again, take the child to daycare, head 0:14:39.636 --> 0:14:45.196 into work, work, work, work, work, work, pump breast milk like, 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:48.476 take the train home, pick the child up from daycare, 0:14:49.876 --> 0:15:02.316 breastfeed work, bathtime, breastfeed work, take out, sleep. It was 0:15:02.396 --> 0:15:06.356 NonStop and I probably should have And again this is 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:10.036 all gets into class things, right, I was, so I 0:15:11.036 --> 0:15:14.876 resisted help. I didn't want to bring a nanny into 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:17.756 my house. I didn't know anybody who had nanny's I didn't, 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:20.876 you know, I didn't. That felt so wrong to me. 0:15:21.436 --> 0:15:24.436 But I needed support so badly, and I was making 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.516 enough money that I could have had support, but I 0:15:27.676 --> 0:15:30.716 just didn't understand what that kind of support looked like. 0:15:31.476 --> 0:15:34.556 Yeah, I actually think this is an important moment to clarify. 0:15:35.396 --> 0:15:38.796 You know, some people actually just do have to work 0:15:38.836 --> 0:15:41.596 that much or even more to make ends meet, and 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:46.156 something you clarify about your story, is that you were 0:15:46.196 --> 0:15:48.476 working beyond what you would have needed to work to 0:15:48.556 --> 0:15:50.156 be financially secure. 0:15:50.356 --> 0:15:55.316 Yes, so what we're talking about here is an exceptionally 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:58.996 privileged position to be in, and we're talking about going 0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:02.596 beyond basic survival. Because yes, I could have had to 0:16:02.636 --> 0:16:04.956 have worked like I had throughout all of my twenties 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:07.276 two jobs. I was no longer in that position. I 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:11.756 was making six figures, which was beyond my conception of 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:15.796 money I should have. I just couldn't even I was like, 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:17.796 I probably could have afforded to get help, but I 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:20.476 didn't really understand that. I didn't understand that that's how 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:24.556 systems like that, that's how people work, you know, they 0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:27.476 have support. I didn't understand that my mom never had help, 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:32.476 you know. Yep, So this ignorance was really a problem. 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:36.996 You know. Eventually your body issued a wake up call 0:16:37.076 --> 0:16:42.796 for you. You developed chronic laryngitis from over using your voice 0:16:42.876 --> 0:16:45.836 right giving all these presentations and talks as an executive. 0:16:46.236 --> 0:16:48.636 The doctor told you that you needed to go on 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:52.796 vocal rest. You had to get vocal cord surgery. And 0:16:53.156 --> 0:16:55.556 it sounds like this was a rare moment where the 0:16:55.676 --> 0:16:59.596 universe kind of intervened and was like, Jennifer, you got 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:02.676 to slow down. 0:17:02.076 --> 0:17:04.956 What happened with my voice and let me just say here. 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:08.436 I had had so many physical issues around work. I 0:17:08.476 --> 0:17:12.476 had a guesst ulcer, I had massive stress, I had 0:17:12.516 --> 0:17:16.756 panic attacks, I had headaches. I had so many physical 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:21.516 symptoms brought on by overwork. But the one that shut 0:17:21.556 --> 0:17:25.236 me down was the one that had to shut me down. 0:17:25.316 --> 0:17:29.036 Like I couldn't speak. My vocal cords were bleeding. I 0:17:29.116 --> 0:17:31.836 was going to have to get surgery, and I understood 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:34.756 that I might not ever be able to speak again 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:39.836 if I spoke during this two week vocal rest. So 0:17:39.916 --> 0:17:45.996 I took it seriously and I would sit in meetings 0:17:46.796 --> 0:17:53.836 and just listen and watch. And at this point I 0:17:53.916 --> 0:17:58.716 was in the c suite, and I found it to 0:17:58.876 --> 0:18:11.196 be an unkind, unproductive, callous environment because I do think 0:18:12.956 --> 0:18:17.716 that over time in corporate environments and as an executive, 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:22.996 you make concessions. You do things that in your regular 0:18:23.076 --> 0:18:27.396 life you wouldn't do. You tow the company line. You 0:18:27.476 --> 0:18:30.716 fire people in ways that you are not comfortable with, 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:33.076 but you know this has to be done. You cut 0:18:33.116 --> 0:18:36.636 budgets when you know you shouldn't cut budgets, you do 0:18:36.756 --> 0:18:42.156 things that go against your values. And when I really 0:18:42.276 --> 0:18:47.636 was observing it, I thought, this is no longer scratching 0:18:47.676 --> 0:18:53.076 whatever itch I originally had. I don't belong here anymore. 0:18:55.476 --> 0:19:03.036 This isn't for me. And even having that thought was terrifying, 0:19:04.076 --> 0:19:07.796 because what happens if I don't want to do this anymore. 0:19:09.276 --> 0:19:12.236 My entire identity was wrapped up in what I did 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:15.436 for a living, I mean, beyond motherhood, but I had 0:19:15.516 --> 0:19:18.196 room for nothing else. I didn't have any real friendships 0:19:18.196 --> 0:19:22.236 in my life. I had an entirely unbalanced life, and 0:19:22.916 --> 0:19:25.756 most of my energy went into my career. And at 0:19:25.796 --> 0:19:29.956 this point, my career was public like I had magazines 0:19:29.996 --> 0:19:32.876 at this point like doing interviews with me asking how 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:36.196 to get my life? You know, I had to the 0:19:36.236 --> 0:19:40.436 outside world an absolute dream job. I had this precocious 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.596 child that you know, people saw pictures of on Instagram. 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:48.596 I lived in a nice home in Los Angeles. I've 0:19:48.636 --> 0:19:51.476 really looked to the outside world like I had everything, 0:19:52.036 --> 0:19:56.356 but I was already at the top of that going wait, 0:19:56.476 --> 0:20:01.276 is this it? My life did not feel like my own, 0:20:01.436 --> 0:20:04.516 and the worst part of it was I had zero 0:20:04.756 --> 0:20:10.196 connection to myself because I had not been b my 0:20:11.236 --> 0:20:15.036 personal and life resume at the same pace that I 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:19.036 had been building my professional resume. So my life was 0:20:19.076 --> 0:20:23.036 completely unbalanced and it was very scary. 0:20:26.276 --> 0:20:28.396 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:20:28.396 --> 0:20:45.316 of plans. After years of climbing the corporate ladder, Jennifer 0:20:45.396 --> 0:20:48.476 Romalini had finally made it to the c suite. She 0:20:48.556 --> 0:20:51.436 was an executive at a celebrity owned website for women. 0:20:52.356 --> 0:20:54.436 But less than a year into the new job, she 0:20:54.556 --> 0:20:57.996 developed an issue with her vocal cords. A doctor told 0:20:58.036 --> 0:21:01.036 her she needed surgery and a two week vocal rest, 0:21:01.716 --> 0:21:04.196 and it was during this period that Jennifer began to 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:07.876 see her workplace as quote a great dance of winner 0:21:07.996 --> 0:21:09.116 take all dysfunction. 0:21:10.356 --> 0:21:14.956 And so following that surgery, I did the job. I 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:18.636 showed up to everything. I put in good work, but 0:21:18.716 --> 0:21:23.436 I stopped going above and beyond. I stopped meeting unrealistic demands. 0:21:24.276 --> 0:21:27.636 If I got an all caps slack tirade at four 0:21:27.676 --> 0:21:30.156 in the morning, I didn't answer it. As soon as 0:21:30.196 --> 0:21:35.196 I woke up, I let go of work a little bit. 0:21:35.276 --> 0:21:40.316 I took like my white knuckles off the steering wheel. 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:43.956 I still was working and I had not let any 0:21:44.036 --> 0:21:48.596 balls drop, but I wasn't available for anybody's whim at 0:21:48.636 --> 0:21:54.956 any time. So about six months after this, after not 0:21:55.476 --> 0:22:01.796 answering every just ridiculous call, after six months of not 0:22:01.956 --> 0:22:06.156 treating everything with like a level of like life and 0:22:06.276 --> 0:22:11.676 death urgency, it turned out that the person they had hired, 0:22:12.836 --> 0:22:16.316 who had done all of that versus the person I 0:22:16.476 --> 0:22:18.876 was now I was no longer a good fit. 0:22:21.076 --> 0:22:23.396 You got a knock on your office door, tell me 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:24.636 about that that day. 0:22:26.316 --> 0:22:30.756 So it's Monday afternoon. It's about four o'clock. So I 0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:33.276 have two people come into my office and they tell 0:22:33.316 --> 0:22:36.036 me that they're going in another direction. They don't say fired, 0:22:36.116 --> 0:22:38.956 and I say, so, you're firing me because I want 0:22:38.996 --> 0:22:42.836 to disrupt the script, like I was such an asshole 0:22:42.876 --> 0:22:45.516 brought this whole process. But I was in shock. 0:22:45.716 --> 0:22:46.156 Of course. 0:22:46.316 --> 0:22:49.596 I couldn't fathom that I would be fired after how 0:22:49.636 --> 0:22:57.556 hard I'd worked. Yeah, and I felt so ashamed that 0:22:57.636 --> 0:22:59.756 I had not held it together. I felt like I 0:22:59.796 --> 0:23:05.596 had really let my family down. There was so much 0:23:05.636 --> 0:23:09.596 to process after getting fired. It was a real sense 0:23:09.636 --> 0:23:12.276 of grief, and I know people go through grief much 0:23:12.316 --> 0:23:17.116 heavier than this. But I really grieved so much after 0:23:17.156 --> 0:23:21.956 getting fired. I grieved the life that I had given 0:23:21.996 --> 0:23:27.196 away to various toxic jobs. I grieved the time I 0:23:27.196 --> 0:23:33.236 would never get back. I grieved the person that I 0:23:33.276 --> 0:23:36.556 wished I had been in different situations, the concessions I 0:23:36.596 --> 0:23:42.836 had made, and I found after I got fired. I 0:23:42.836 --> 0:23:45.276 had always been able to like talk myself up, you know, 0:23:45.396 --> 0:23:49.156 just get over it, pull this shit together. But I 0:23:49.236 --> 0:23:52.916 was just fried, Like I no longer had like the 0:23:52.916 --> 0:23:57.436 password to my brain. I was just kind of broken 0:23:57.516 --> 0:24:01.036 by this experience, and I needed to process it. I 0:24:01.076 --> 0:24:03.436 was in absolutely no shape to go back to work. 0:24:04.796 --> 0:24:08.636 In the aftermath of your being fired. How did you 0:24:08.636 --> 0:24:09.916 put the piece is back together? 0:24:11.996 --> 0:24:15.476 I didn't take any jobs that we're going to have 0:24:15.916 --> 0:24:17.996 any kind of high profile, and I was offered a 0:24:18.036 --> 0:24:20.316 lot they start They just kept coming, and I had 0:24:20.316 --> 0:24:22.076 to reject them, and I had to say, we're going 0:24:22.116 --> 0:24:24.796 to make a lot less money in this house. And 0:24:24.836 --> 0:24:30.036 I reconnected with my life. I started taking like I 0:24:30.076 --> 0:24:33.436 took a woodworking class, Like I just started doing things 0:24:34.596 --> 0:24:38.836 out of curiosity. I flexed like creative muscles that I 0:24:38.916 --> 0:24:44.756 forgot that I had, and then eventually I said, okay, 0:24:45.516 --> 0:24:47.596 I think it's time to get a job that has 0:24:48.396 --> 0:24:51.796 health insurance. I think we need some more stability here. 0:24:51.836 --> 0:24:56.556 This is not feeling sustainable and stable. And I made 0:24:56.596 --> 0:24:59.076 a very intentional choice about the kind of job I 0:24:59.116 --> 0:25:03.276 would go back to. I was so thoughtful about the 0:25:03.396 --> 0:25:07.236 peace that I had gained and protecting it. So I 0:25:07.276 --> 0:25:11.196 started thinking about what I like about work, because I 0:25:11.396 --> 0:25:14.516 love work like I love it. It brings me so 0:25:14.676 --> 0:25:18.156 much pleasure. I love mastery. I love learning new things. 0:25:19.356 --> 0:25:21.676 So I started to think, well, what did I love 0:25:21.716 --> 0:25:25.476 and work? How do I work so it serves me 0:25:26.676 --> 0:25:29.476 not some external idea of me. 0:25:31.356 --> 0:25:35.276 But how do you actually practice that. It's not like 0:25:35.356 --> 0:25:37.836 there's a switch in your brain you can just flip. 0:25:37.876 --> 0:25:41.316 That's like, I don't care anymore about how I'm perceived 0:25:41.356 --> 0:25:44.396 externally or where I am on the ladder. So what 0:25:44.516 --> 0:25:47.236 advice would you give to people who want to train 0:25:47.356 --> 0:25:49.716 their brains to get to the place that you're at? 0:25:50.116 --> 0:25:50.996 What does that look like? 0:25:51.596 --> 0:25:53.636 I'll tell you exactly how this all changed for me. 0:25:54.596 --> 0:25:56.636 I sort of pursued this what I thought was going 0:25:56.676 --> 0:26:02.276 to be a freelance job, and it was a cannabis website, 0:26:02.756 --> 0:26:05.316 a website that was about weed it was run by 0:26:05.316 --> 0:26:09.036 these like twenty five year old Irish kids. This job 0:26:10.076 --> 0:26:12.476 was the dumbest job I've ever had. Okay, it didn't 0:26:12.516 --> 0:26:14.796 even pay that well, but it paid enough to pay 0:26:15.196 --> 0:26:18.956 my half of the monthly bills. Everybody in my life said, 0:26:19.396 --> 0:26:21.116 this is a joke job. You're going to go be 0:26:21.156 --> 0:26:22.516 the editor of a weed site? 0:26:22.796 --> 0:26:23.596 What are you? 0:26:23.756 --> 0:26:27.756 Twenty three? This is the death of your career. Like 0:26:28.316 --> 0:26:31.196 people I trust and advise, they're like, what are you doing? 0:26:31.836 --> 0:26:35.076