1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:34,596 Speaker 2: Ambition is a force, and you can harness that force 3 00:00:34,676 --> 00:00:38,916 Speaker 2: for good, or you can harness that force in a 4 00:00:38,956 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 2: way that takes you away from yourself. 5 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:46,316 Speaker 1: For so long, writer Jennifer Romalini prided herself on her 6 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: work ethic. She climbed to the top of every corporate 7 00:00:49,836 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 1: ladder and worked herself to the bone. But after years 8 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 1: of burning herself out, she realized her ambition had turned toxic. 9 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:00,956 Speaker 2: I've really looked to the outside world like I had everything, 10 00:01:01,516 --> 00:01:05,836 Speaker 2: but I was already at the top of that going wait, 11 00:01:05,956 --> 00:01:09,076 Speaker 2: is this it? Because I had not been building in 12 00:01:09,796 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 2: my personal and life resume at the same pace that 13 00:01:14,636 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 2: I had been building my professional resume. 14 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 1: On today's show, rethinking ambition and what we can be 15 00:01:24,756 --> 00:01:29,436 Speaker 1: ambitious for, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight 16 00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 17 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. 18 00:01:47,356 --> 00:01:49,916 Speaker 1: I first came across Jennifer's story when I read her 19 00:01:49,956 --> 00:01:53,676 Speaker 1: memoir Ambition Monster. The book covers a lot of ground. 20 00:01:53,956 --> 00:01:58,236 Speaker 1: She dives deep into unresolved childhood trauma, romantic relationships that 21 00:01:58,276 --> 00:02:02,396 Speaker 1: turn sour, and the costs of chronic overwork. I was 22 00:02:02,476 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 1: most struck by the way Jennifer writes about ambition and 23 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:09,316 Speaker 1: how a big and unexpected change can make us rethink 24 00:02:09,356 --> 00:02:12,756 Speaker 1: our relationship with it. Jennifer grew up in a working 25 00:02:12,756 --> 00:02:16,636 Speaker 1: class family just outside of Philadelphia, and in her family, 26 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 1: ambition meant one thing survival. 27 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:23,676 Speaker 2: Both of my parents did not graduate high school and 28 00:02:24,556 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 2: they worked to survive. My dad was in the produce business. 29 00:02:28,676 --> 00:02:31,876 Speaker 2: He started out working as in a grocery store in 30 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:36,036 Speaker 2: the produce department, and he then was like, oh, you know, 31 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:39,916 Speaker 2: there's a big markup here on lettuce. I think I 32 00:02:39,956 --> 00:02:43,276 Speaker 2: could sell it for cheaper and still make a profit. 33 00:02:44,316 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 2: So he started out selling cases of produce on a 34 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 2: stand on the street. He built that business into a truck. 35 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:56,516 Speaker 2: He eventually turned that into a store, and he turned 36 00:02:56,556 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 2: it into force stores around South Jersey and Philadelphia. It 37 00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 2: took effort and force to build that business and to 38 00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:10,876 Speaker 2: get us out of what was, you know, poverty. So 39 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 2: I saw work as an act of force. I saw 40 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:21,516 Speaker 2: work as survival. I saw work as something that made 41 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 2: you feel safe. This was all wrapped up in ambition. 42 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 2: For me, ambition was wrapped up in survival. So the 43 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 2: idea of work and compulsive work and never stopping work 44 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 2: and having an incredible work ethic and never letting anyone 45 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:41,996 Speaker 2: down was just built into my bones. 46 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 1: Yeah. I read that you grew up loving Sassy magazine 47 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: and it's what made you want to become a writer. 48 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 1: Is that right? 49 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:52,676 Speaker 2: Yes, If you were a girl in the eighties and 50 00:03:52,756 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 2: the nineties, Sasse was just this life raft. It was 51 00:03:57,316 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 2: so different than like seventeen or teen magazine because it 52 00:04:00,276 --> 00:04:04,556 Speaker 2: really was teaching you independence, and it was teaching you 53 00:04:05,436 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 2: like a sense of autonomy that nothing else really was. 54 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:12,196 Speaker 2: I didn't want you to be there just for sort 55 00:04:12,236 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 2: of the male gaze. It wasn't teaching you makeup tips 56 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 2: per se. You know. It was about music and culture 57 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 2: and issues that girls were dealing with and I and 58 00:04:21,956 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 2: also it really put forward the personalities of its writers, 59 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 2: and so I became obsessed with those writers. And you know, 60 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:32,076 Speaker 2: they all lived in New York, which was a place 61 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,156 Speaker 2: I kind of knew I wanted to live. I was like, Oh, 62 00:04:35,196 --> 00:04:37,676 Speaker 2: I'd like to be a magazine editor someday or writer. 63 00:04:38,756 --> 00:04:41,116 Speaker 1: I know that you started working in restaurants when you 64 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 1: were thirteen, and you ended up working in restaurants for 65 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 1: a decade, but you held on to this hope, right 66 00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: like in the back of your mind that one day 67 00:04:50,636 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: you might want to become that writer, the one that 68 00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:56,196 Speaker 1: you had read about in Sassy magazine. So tell me 69 00:04:56,316 --> 00:04:58,636 Speaker 1: how you started on the path towards that dream. 70 00:04:59,476 --> 00:05:03,196 Speaker 2: If there's no model in your life for the life 71 00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 2: that you want, it's so difficult to conceive of it 72 00:05:07,236 --> 00:05:11,556 Speaker 2: because you cannot conceive of how you get from where 73 00:05:11,596 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 2: you are to where you want to be. Because I 74 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:22,836 Speaker 2: had no context for white collar work, creative work, I 75 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:26,476 Speaker 2: just had no context for it. Everyone I knew was 76 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:29,716 Speaker 2: a blue collar worker, you know, that was just what 77 00:05:29,756 --> 00:05:32,476 Speaker 2: we surrounded ourselves with. That was who my parents knew 78 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:37,396 Speaker 2: and I didn't have. You know, my childhood home was 79 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 2: very chaotic. My parents weren't They did the best they 80 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:43,716 Speaker 2: could with the tools that they had, but they were 81 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 2: not very intentive. And my parents were teenagers when they 82 00:05:47,676 --> 00:05:51,796 Speaker 2: had me, and like most teenagers, they were reckless and 83 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:55,276 Speaker 2: irresponsible in a lot of ways. And you know, I 84 00:05:56,796 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 2: was witnessed to a lot of things I shouldn't have 85 00:05:58,596 --> 00:06:02,716 Speaker 2: been witnessed to. There was violence in our home. There 86 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 2: was some abuse, but more than anything, they just did 87 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 2: not have the capacity to to my emotional needs, and 88 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: I often felt like I was on my own. I 89 00:06:14,676 --> 00:06:17,476 Speaker 2: was a really sensitive kid. I was a really creative kid. 90 00:06:18,516 --> 00:06:21,676 Speaker 2: It was probably clear very early that I was going 91 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 2: to take a different path than they did, that I 92 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,076 Speaker 2: was not going to be satisfied with the lives that 93 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,316 Speaker 2: they had, which is already a sort of alienating feeling 94 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 2: when you feel different from what you grow up around. 95 00:06:33,036 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: Absolutely right, Yeah, And I wonder whether in making that clear, 96 00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 1: either implicitly or explicitly, they felt rejected by you because 97 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: you were saying the life you're living isn't going to 98 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 1: be enough for me. 99 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:48,356 Speaker 2: Of course, and I think that for me, what I 100 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:50,756 Speaker 2: did was I tried to live the life I thought 101 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 2: they wanted me to live. I married young. I married 102 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:57,956 Speaker 2: a man who was working class. I married a man 103 00:06:58,036 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 2: who I didn't have a lot in common with, but 104 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:02,476 Speaker 2: I felt like I should marry. He was a nice man, 105 00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:07,356 Speaker 2: he had a good job. But I felt so suffocated. 106 00:07:08,076 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 2: I felt so oh, like there was like a cloak 107 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:15,916 Speaker 2: over me because I wasn't living the life that I 108 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:20,996 Speaker 2: really wanted to live, and that I somewhere like in 109 00:07:21,036 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 2: the back of my mind, thought maybe I could live. Finally, 110 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 2: I managed to get out of that marriage. And getting 111 00:07:29,396 --> 00:07:32,556 Speaker 2: out of that marriage if you come from any kind 112 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 2: of traditional background, you come from immigrant family, if you 113 00:07:35,116 --> 00:07:38,676 Speaker 2: come from a Catholic family, religion, all sorts of things. 114 00:07:39,076 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 2: Getting a divorce young especially, it's like, you know, what's 115 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 2: wrong with you? What are you doing? You know? So 116 00:07:48,596 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 2: it took so much courage to make the move to 117 00:07:52,116 --> 00:07:54,276 Speaker 2: get out of a marriage that was not right for 118 00:07:54,316 --> 00:07:58,356 Speaker 2: me in my mid twenties, And at that point I 119 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:01,796 Speaker 2: was like, Okay, I'm all in because I already feel 120 00:08:01,796 --> 00:08:04,076 Speaker 2: like such a failure. I had already dropped out of college, 121 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:05,916 Speaker 2: I had already gotten a divorce. So by the time 122 00:08:05,956 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 2: I'm twenty five, I'm a college dropout and a deva 123 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 2: or say, I have no money to my name, I'm 124 00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:15,676 Speaker 2: waiting tables. I feel like my life is over, which 125 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:18,276 Speaker 2: is ridiculous at twenty five, but that's why I felt. 126 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:22,476 Speaker 2: I think the fact that I had sort of made 127 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 2: what I thought were so many mistakes at that point, 128 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 2: and I felt so messed up. I was like, well, 129 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:31,156 Speaker 2: I'm just going to go for it because I had 130 00:08:31,196 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 2: nothing really to lose. I think I had like less 131 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:36,876 Speaker 2: than one hundred dollars in my bank account when I 132 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:42,036 Speaker 2: left my husband. So I did. I put myself through school. 133 00:08:42,396 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: I waited tables full time at night, I went to 134 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 2: school full time in the day. I had two internships. 135 00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:50,676 Speaker 2: At all times, I was trying to catch up. I 136 00:08:50,716 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 2: was just racing and racing and running and running. And 137 00:08:53,796 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: I knew what I wanted. I wanted to get to 138 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: New York and I wanted to work for a magazine. 139 00:08:59,756 --> 00:09:02,916 Speaker 1: You did dozens of interviews and were rejected from them, 140 00:09:02,916 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 1: all right, yes, and so eventually you ran out of cash, 141 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,916 Speaker 1: you had to move back home, live in your parents' attic. 142 00:09:09,916 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: But then you got your first media job. Tell me 143 00:09:14,476 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: the story about how that happened. 144 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:20,356 Speaker 2: So I didn't know how I was going to be 145 00:09:20,436 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 2: perceived by this elite you know, extremely white. I'm white, 146 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:30,676 Speaker 2: but this is like an extreme like elite white, you 147 00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:36,796 Speaker 2: know environment, you know, publishing is built on connections and 148 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 2: on pedigrees, and I didn't have either of those things. 149 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:44,676 Speaker 2: So at this point, I've been through, you know, dozens 150 00:09:44,676 --> 00:09:47,796 Speaker 2: of interviews, and I get this call about this job 151 00:09:47,836 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 2: interview in New York for this business magazine. I take 152 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 2: the train up and the interviewer said, what school is this? 153 00:09:58,076 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 2: And he pushes my resume over to me, and I 154 00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:03,476 Speaker 2: was like, just because you haven't heard of it doesn't 155 00:10:03,476 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 2: mean it's not a good school, and pushed the resume 156 00:10:06,276 --> 00:10:10,596 Speaker 2: back to him and he he had interviewed like ten 157 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:14,396 Speaker 2: people before me, but because I had such an attitude problem, 158 00:10:14,476 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 2: he just wanted that as his assistant. And that's how 159 00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,036 Speaker 2: I got the job. It was like a miracle happened. 160 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:23,076 Speaker 2: I was so myself, I was so over it. But 161 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:26,956 Speaker 2: I also clearly like what I had was I had 162 00:10:26,996 --> 00:10:29,436 Speaker 2: been around, I knew how to deal with like customers 163 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 2: in a restaurant, like I had a lot more experience 164 00:10:32,036 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 2: of being alive than most of the people going for 165 00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 2: an assistant job. I was twenty eight years old. He was, 166 00:10:37,996 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 2: you know, interviewing all these twenty two year olds, And 167 00:10:41,196 --> 00:10:44,076 Speaker 2: to be somebody's assistant, you have to put out a 168 00:10:44,076 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 2: lot of fires that I was actually perfect for that job, 169 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 2: even without a pedigree. 170 00:10:50,636 --> 00:10:53,436 Speaker 1: So, Jennifer, after that job, you started working for the 171 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:56,716 Speaker 1: publisher Conde Nast. Right, Yes, you were an editor at 172 00:10:56,716 --> 00:11:00,796 Speaker 1: a fashion magazine called Lucky, and at this point you 173 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 1: were hobnobbing with celebrities. You're interviewing actresses for photo shoots 174 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:08,836 Speaker 1: that your dream of what you thought this job would 175 00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:13,196 Speaker 1: be like did not actually match your day to day reality. 176 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:18,916 Speaker 2: So, because entry level jobs pay so little in publishing 177 00:11:18,996 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 2: across the board, and I think this is important to know, 178 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 2: most people who work in these jobs come from some 179 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:30,836 Speaker 2: level of generational wealth, because you can't really afford to 180 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 2: take these jobs and have a life in New York 181 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:39,316 Speaker 2: City unless you are subsidized in some way. I was 182 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 2: subsidized by credit cards and taking on as many side 183 00:11:43,236 --> 00:11:46,036 Speaker 2: jobs as I could, you know, writing for the Kitchen 184 00:11:46,076 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 2: and Bath magazine, I wrote for the Target in House magazine. 185 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:53,076 Speaker 2: I was always working three or four jobs just to 186 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 2: support my main job. So the level of wealth at 187 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 2: Conde Nast was something that I had not prepared myself for, 188 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:08,316 Speaker 2: and I was really a bad fit because of that. 189 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:12,996 Speaker 2: Instead of looking at this environment and thinking, oh, this 190 00:12:13,076 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 2: isn't for me, this doesn't work for me, instead I 191 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:20,756 Speaker 2: thought there was something wrong with me, and I had 192 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 2: to contort and make myself acceptable to a place that 193 00:12:27,196 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 2: I didn't respect. 194 00:12:30,836 --> 00:12:34,236 Speaker 1: What do you think prevented you from stepping away in 195 00:12:34,316 --> 00:12:35,916 Speaker 1: that moment? Why didn't you leave? 196 00:12:37,396 --> 00:12:42,956 Speaker 2: At that point, I was so far into the tunnel 197 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:51,996 Speaker 2: of success and those foundations of scarcity and survival, my 198 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 2: father's work, ethic and NonStop work. It was just so 199 00:12:57,316 --> 00:13:02,396 Speaker 2: foundationally who I was. I had not unpacked any of 200 00:13:02,436 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 2: it right, any of that, And I think that what 201 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 2: happened was I was applying that sense of scarce city 202 00:13:09,516 --> 00:13:16,036 Speaker 2: and survival onto work that didn't really didn't matter. I 203 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:19,756 Speaker 2: was writing about shoes and belts and lip gloss, right, 204 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:25,556 Speaker 2: but I had that same survival intensity. It was really 205 00:13:25,596 --> 00:13:29,396 Speaker 2: about how do I get to the next level, how 206 00:13:29,396 --> 00:13:31,916 Speaker 2: do I get a promotion, how do I make more money. 207 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 2: I was in it. I was in it so hard, 208 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:38,516 Speaker 2: and to have walked away it wouldn't have made sense 209 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 2: for a resume. And I needed that resume to make 210 00:13:41,116 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 2: sense because I was climbing a ladder and I was 211 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 2: very strategic about climbing that ladder. 212 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:53,196 Speaker 1: You kept climbing the ladder, and you ended up achieving 213 00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:56,396 Speaker 1: management roles like you were very successful, and eventually you 214 00:13:56,436 --> 00:14:00,316 Speaker 1: got married, you had a child. From what I've read, 215 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 1: it seems like it was during this period of your 216 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 1: life where your workaholism took a turn for the worse. Absolutely, 217 00:14:08,236 --> 00:14:11,156 Speaker 1: can you paint me and pay picture of what an 218 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:14,676 Speaker 1: average day looked like for you, So, your your mother, 219 00:14:14,796 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: your spouse, and you're also working. What you say like 220 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:21,076 Speaker 1: sixty hours a week? Is that right? Yeah? 221 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 2: Sixty sixty more and more as much as I could work. 222 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 2: I was working. So an average day looked like, wake 223 00:14:28,836 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 2: up at five am, breastfeed, shower, change, check my email, 224 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:39,596 Speaker 2: answer emails, breastfeed again, take the child to daycare, head 225 00:14:39,636 --> 00:14:45,196 Speaker 2: into work, work, work, work, work, work, pump breast milk like, 226 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:48,476 Speaker 2: take the train home, pick the child up from daycare, 227 00:14:49,876 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 2: breastfeed work, bathtime, breastfeed work, take out, sleep. It was 228 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:06,356 Speaker 2: NonStop and I probably should have And again this is 229 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:10,036 Speaker 2: all gets into class things, right, I was, so I 230 00:15:11,036 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 2: resisted help. I didn't want to bring a nanny into 231 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:17,756 Speaker 2: my house. I didn't know anybody who had nanny's I didn't, 232 00:15:17,996 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't. That felt so wrong to me. 233 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 2: But I needed support so badly, and I was making 234 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,516 Speaker 2: enough money that I could have had support, but I 235 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 2: just didn't understand what that kind of support looked like. 236 00:15:31,476 --> 00:15:34,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually think this is an important moment to clarify. 237 00:15:35,396 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 1: You know, some people actually just do have to work 238 00:15:38,836 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 1: that much or even more to make ends meet, and 239 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: something you clarify about your story, is that you were 240 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: working beyond what you would have needed to work to 241 00:15:48,556 --> 00:15:50,156 Speaker 1: be financially secure. 242 00:15:50,356 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 2: Yes, so what we're talking about here is an exceptionally 243 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 2: privileged position to be in, and we're talking about going 244 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:02,596 Speaker 2: beyond basic survival. Because yes, I could have had to 245 00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 2: have worked like I had throughout all of my twenties 246 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 2: two jobs. I was no longer in that position. I 247 00:16:07,316 --> 00:16:11,756 Speaker 2: was making six figures, which was beyond my conception of 248 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:15,796 Speaker 2: money I should have. I just couldn't even I was like, 249 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 2: I probably could have afforded to get help, but I 250 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:20,476 Speaker 2: didn't really understand that. I didn't understand that that's how 251 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:24,556 Speaker 2: systems like that, that's how people work, you know, they 252 00:16:24,556 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 2: have support. I didn't understand that my mom never had help, 253 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:32,476 Speaker 2: you know. Yep, So this ignorance was really a problem. 254 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:36,996 Speaker 1: You know. Eventually your body issued a wake up call 255 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:42,796 Speaker 1: for you. You developed chronic laryngitis from over using your voice 256 00:16:42,876 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 1: right giving all these presentations and talks as an executive. 257 00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 1: The doctor told you that you needed to go on 258 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: vocal rest. You had to get vocal cord surgery. And 259 00:16:53,156 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: it sounds like this was a rare moment where the 260 00:16:55,676 --> 00:16:59,596 Speaker 1: universe kind of intervened and was like, Jennifer, you got 261 00:16:59,636 --> 00:17:02,676 Speaker 1: to slow down. 262 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:04,956 Speaker 2: What happened with my voice and let me just say here. 263 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 2: I had had so many physical issues around work. I 264 00:17:08,476 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 2: had a guesst ulcer, I had massive stress, I had 265 00:17:12,516 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 2: panic attacks, I had headaches. I had so many physical 266 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 2: symptoms brought on by overwork. But the one that shut 267 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:25,236 Speaker 2: me down was the one that had to shut me down. 268 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 2: Like I couldn't speak. My vocal cords were bleeding. I 269 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:31,836 Speaker 2: was going to have to get surgery, and I understood 270 00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:34,756 Speaker 2: that I might not ever be able to speak again 271 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:39,836 Speaker 2: if I spoke during this two week vocal rest. So 272 00:17:39,916 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 2: I took it seriously and I would sit in meetings 273 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:53,836 Speaker 2: and just listen and watch. And at this point I 274 00:17:53,916 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 2: was in the c suite, and I found it to 275 00:17:58,876 --> 00:18:11,196 Speaker 2: be an unkind, unproductive, callous environment because I do think 276 00:18:12,956 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 2: that over time in corporate environments and as an executive, 277 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:22,996 Speaker 2: you make concessions. You do things that in your regular 278 00:18:23,076 --> 00:18:27,396 Speaker 2: life you wouldn't do. You tow the company line. You 279 00:18:27,476 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 2: fire people in ways that you are not comfortable with, 280 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:33,076 Speaker 2: but you know this has to be done. You cut 281 00:18:33,116 --> 00:18:36,636 Speaker 2: budgets when you know you shouldn't cut budgets, you do 282 00:18:36,756 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 2: things that go against your values. And when I really 283 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 2: was observing it, I thought, this is no longer scratching 284 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 2: whatever itch I originally had. I don't belong here anymore. 285 00:18:55,476 --> 00:19:03,036 Speaker 2: This isn't for me. And even having that thought was terrifying, 286 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 2: because what happens if I don't want to do this anymore. 287 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:12,236 Speaker 2: My entire identity was wrapped up in what I did 288 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,436 Speaker 2: for a living, I mean, beyond motherhood, but I had 289 00:19:15,516 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 2: room for nothing else. I didn't have any real friendships 290 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 2: in my life. I had an entirely unbalanced life, and 291 00:19:22,916 --> 00:19:25,756 Speaker 2: most of my energy went into my career. And at 292 00:19:25,796 --> 00:19:29,956 Speaker 2: this point, my career was public like I had magazines 293 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:32,876 Speaker 2: at this point like doing interviews with me asking how 294 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 2: to get my life? You know, I had to the 295 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:40,436 Speaker 2: outside world an absolute dream job. I had this precocious 296 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:43,596 Speaker 2: child that you know, people saw pictures of on Instagram. 297 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 2: I lived in a nice home in Los Angeles. I've 298 00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 2: really looked to the outside world like I had everything, 299 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 2: but I was already at the top of that going wait, 300 00:19:56,476 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 2: is this it? My life did not feel like my own, 301 00:20:01,436 --> 00:20:04,516 Speaker 2: and the worst part of it was I had zero 302 00:20:04,756 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 2: connection to myself because I had not been b my 303 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:15,036 Speaker 2: personal and life resume at the same pace that I 304 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:19,036 Speaker 2: had been building my professional resume. So my life was 305 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:23,036 Speaker 2: completely unbalanced and it was very scary. 306 00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 307 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:45,316 Speaker 1: of plans. After years of climbing the corporate ladder, Jennifer 308 00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 1: Romalini had finally made it to the c suite. She 309 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:51,436 Speaker 1: was an executive at a celebrity owned website for women. 310 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: But less than a year into the new job, she 311 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:57,996 Speaker 1: developed an issue with her vocal cords. A doctor told 312 00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:01,036 Speaker 1: her she needed surgery and a two week vocal rest, 313 00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:04,196 Speaker 1: and it was during this period that Jennifer began to 314 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 1: see her workplace as quote a great dance of winner 315 00:21:07,996 --> 00:21:09,116 Speaker 1: take all dysfunction. 316 00:21:10,356 --> 00:21:14,956 Speaker 2: And so following that surgery, I did the job. I 317 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:18,636 Speaker 2: showed up to everything. I put in good work, but 318 00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:23,436 Speaker 2: I stopped going above and beyond. I stopped meeting unrealistic demands. 319 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:27,636 Speaker 2: If I got an all caps slack tirade at four 320 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:30,156 Speaker 2: in the morning, I didn't answer it. As soon as 321 00:21:30,196 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 2: I woke up, I let go of work a little bit. 322 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 2: I took like my white knuckles off the steering wheel. 323 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 2: I still was working and I had not let any 324 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:48,596 Speaker 2: balls drop, but I wasn't available for anybody's whim at 325 00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:54,956 Speaker 2: any time. So about six months after this, after not 326 00:21:55,476 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 2: answering every just ridiculous call, after six months of not 327 00:22:01,956 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 2: treating everything with like a level of like life and 328 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 2: death urgency, it turned out that the person they had hired, 329 00:22:12,836 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 2: who had done all of that versus the person I 330 00:22:16,476 --> 00:22:18,876 Speaker 2: was now I was no longer a good fit. 331 00:22:21,076 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 1: You got a knock on your office door, tell me 332 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:24,636 Speaker 1: about that that day. 333 00:22:26,316 --> 00:22:30,756 Speaker 2: So it's Monday afternoon. It's about four o'clock. So I 334 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:33,276 Speaker 2: have two people come into my office and they tell 335 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 2: me that they're going in another direction. They don't say fired, 336 00:22:36,116 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 2: and I say, so, you're firing me because I want 337 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:42,836 Speaker 2: to disrupt the script, like I was such an asshole 338 00:22:42,876 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 2: brought this whole process. But I was in shock. 339 00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 1: Of course. 340 00:22:46,316 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 2: I couldn't fathom that I would be fired after how 341 00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 2: hard I'd worked. Yeah, and I felt so ashamed that 342 00:22:57,636 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 2: I had not held it together. I felt like I 343 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 2: had really let my family down. There was so much 344 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 2: to process after getting fired. It was a real sense 345 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:12,276 Speaker 2: of grief, and I know people go through grief much 346 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 2: heavier than this. But I really grieved so much after 347 00:23:17,156 --> 00:23:21,956 Speaker 2: getting fired. I grieved the life that I had given 348 00:23:21,996 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 2: away to various toxic jobs. I grieved the time I 349 00:23:27,196 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 2: would never get back. I grieved the person that I 350 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 2: wished I had been in different situations, the concessions I 351 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 2: had made, and I found after I got fired. I 352 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:45,276 Speaker 2: had always been able to like talk myself up, you know, 353 00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: just get over it, pull this shit together. But I 354 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:52,916 Speaker 2: was just fried, Like I no longer had like the 355 00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 2: password to my brain. I was just kind of broken 356 00:23:57,516 --> 00:24:01,036 Speaker 2: by this experience, and I needed to process it. I 357 00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 2: was in absolutely no shape to go back to work. 358 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:08,636 Speaker 1: In the aftermath of your being fired. How did you 359 00:24:08,636 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 1: put the piece is back together? 360 00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:15,476 Speaker 2: I didn't take any jobs that we're going to have 361 00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 2: any kind of high profile, and I was offered a 362 00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:20,316 Speaker 2: lot they start They just kept coming, and I had 363 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 2: to reject them, and I had to say, we're going 364 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:24,796 Speaker 2: to make a lot less money in this house. And 365 00:24:24,836 --> 00:24:30,036 Speaker 2: I reconnected with my life. I started taking like I 366 00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:33,436 Speaker 2: took a woodworking class, Like I just started doing things 367 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:38,836 Speaker 2: out of curiosity. I flexed like creative muscles that I 368 00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 2: forgot that I had, and then eventually I said, okay, 369 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:47,596 Speaker 2: I think it's time to get a job that has 370 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 2: health insurance. I think we need some more stability here. 371 00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:56,556 Speaker 2: This is not feeling sustainable and stable. And I made 372 00:24:56,596 --> 00:24:59,076 Speaker 2: a very intentional choice about the kind of job I 373 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 2: would go back to. I was so thoughtful about the 374 00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:07,236 Speaker 2: peace that I had gained and protecting it. So I 375 00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:11,196 Speaker 2: started thinking about what I like about work, because I 376 00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 2: love work like I love it. It brings me so 377 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 2: much pleasure. I love mastery. I love learning new things. 378 00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:21,676 Speaker 2: So I started to think, well, what did I love 379 00:25:21,716 --> 00:25:25,476 Speaker 2: and work? How do I work so it serves me 380 00:25:26,676 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 2: not some external idea of me. 381 00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:35,276 Speaker 1: But how do you actually practice that. It's not like 382 00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 1: there's a switch in your brain you can just flip. 383 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:41,316 Speaker 1: That's like, I don't care anymore about how I'm perceived 384 00:25:41,356 --> 00:25:44,396 Speaker 1: externally or where I am on the ladder. So what 385 00:25:44,516 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 1: advice would you give to people who want to train 386 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: their brains to get to the place that you're at? 387 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 1: What does that look like? 388 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:53,636 Speaker 2: I'll tell you exactly how this all changed for me. 389 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:56,636 Speaker 2: I sort of pursued this what I thought was going 390 00:25:56,676 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 2: to be a freelance job, and it was a cannabis website, 391 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 2: a website that was about weed it was run by 392 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 2: these like twenty five year old Irish kids. This job 393 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:12,476 Speaker 2: was the dumbest job I've ever had. Okay, it didn't 394 00:26:12,516 --> 00:26:14,796 Speaker 2: even pay that well, but it paid enough to pay 395 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 2: my half of the monthly bills. Everybody in my life said, 396 00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 2: this is a joke job. You're going to go be 397 00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:22,516 Speaker 2: the editor of a weed site? 398 00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 1: What are you? 399 00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 2: Twenty three? This is the death of your career. Like 400 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,196 Speaker 2: people I trust and advise, they're like, what are you doing? 401 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 2: How are you going to explain this? And I was like, 402 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,716 Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems like fun. So I took 403 00:26:37,716 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 2: this stupid weed job and I worked it for a 404 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:43,516 Speaker 2: year and it was the best thing I ever did. 405 00:26:43,556 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 2: And so after that ended, I was like, well, what 406 00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 2: do I like? What do I want to do? 407 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 1: What did you want? 408 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:55,636 Speaker 2: I wanted stable, contained work. And while I had enjoyed 409 00:26:55,636 --> 00:27:00,276 Speaker 2: being a manager solving other people's problems, was I felt 410 00:27:00,276 --> 00:27:04,356 Speaker 2: like I had done my time for that. So I 411 00:27:04,516 --> 00:27:07,116 Speaker 2: very intentionally climbed back down the ladder. I was at 412 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:09,556 Speaker 2: the top. I was in the C suite, and I 413 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:13,676 Speaker 2: started applying for jobs that were mid level jobs with 414 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 2: mid level salaries. But you know, I could handle a 415 00:27:16,516 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 2: mid level salary I'd handled much less. It took a 416 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 2: lot of convincing because I had to people would I 417 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:26,356 Speaker 2: would be in interviews and interviewers the recruiter would say, 418 00:27:26,356 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 2: you know, you're overqualified for this, and I'd say, yes, 419 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 2: I know I'm overqualified, but this is the kind of 420 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:33,396 Speaker 2: job I want. It took a very long time. It 421 00:27:33,396 --> 00:27:36,516 Speaker 2: took like six months to finally convince somebody that I 422 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,996 Speaker 2: just wanted to be in the middle again. But I 423 00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 2: have a job now that I I just write about 424 00:27:43,996 --> 00:27:47,676 Speaker 2: beauty products all day and I love it, and I'm 425 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 2: excellent at it, and I'm respected, and I have a 426 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 2: lot of autonomy, and I have a lot of free 427 00:27:55,836 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 2: time after I finish my job to pursue creative projects. 428 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 2: If I choose to spend time with family and friends. 429 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 2: The job does not fill up my whole brain because 430 00:28:07,556 --> 00:28:10,996 Speaker 2: it's not I'm not thinking of high level strategy all day. 431 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 2: I don't have executives coming at me from every direction. 432 00:28:16,476 --> 00:28:20,396 Speaker 2: The job is very focused, which allows me to do 433 00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:23,116 Speaker 2: it very well in the hours I do it each day, 434 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 2: and then to leave it behind. And that was what 435 00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 2: I wanted. 436 00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:34,156 Speaker 1: You know, you write about how ambition can be so 437 00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,636 Speaker 1: toxic that at the same time, you're not repudiating ambition. 438 00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:41,956 Speaker 1: You say you love ambition, And so it really just 439 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:45,756 Speaker 1: becomes a question of how we channel our ambition. Yes, 440 00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: and I'm curious to hear from you how, especially as women, 441 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: I don't want us to do away with our ambition 442 00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 1: because there's already factors working against that. Right, So, how 443 00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:00,676 Speaker 1: do we channel our ambition in ways that are maybe 444 00:29:01,316 --> 00:29:04,316 Speaker 1: healthier or make us happier, or are more sustainable. 445 00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:11,716 Speaker 2: You pair ambition with self a way awareness. You stay 446 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 2: aware of what is happening. You don't use work to 447 00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:22,396 Speaker 2: stuff things down, to bury your feelings in. You don't 448 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 2: hide in ambition. You use ambition to bring your life 449 00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 2: into color, into fullness. Ambition is a force, and you 450 00:29:38,596 --> 00:29:43,036 Speaker 2: can harness that force for good, or you can harness 451 00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 2: that force in a way that takes you away from 452 00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:53,596 Speaker 2: yourself and the things that you actually care about. We 453 00:29:53,756 --> 00:29:57,636 Speaker 2: think success has to be big, when it's so often 454 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 2: like the most satisfying success is quiet and small. 455 00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 1: Tell me what small and quiet looks like for you 456 00:30:05,956 --> 00:30:08,316 Speaker 1: in your day to day life. 457 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:12,276 Speaker 2: I've designed my life in such a way that nothing 458 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:17,956 Speaker 2: is neglected. My relationships aren't neglected. I'm not neglected. Work 459 00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:22,596 Speaker 2: is not neglected. Everything is in balance. And I'll tell 460 00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:28,716 Speaker 2: you my cat died over the weekend, and I had 461 00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:31,156 Speaker 2: to make a decision last week. She got very sick 462 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 2: last week. And she was my cat for sixteen and 463 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 2: a half years, and I was very close to this animal. 464 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 2: She was a companion. And because of the way I've 465 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 2: designed my life, I was able to be present and 466 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 2: non stressed to make decisions about the end of this 467 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:58,956 Speaker 2: animal's life, to take a full day to grieve, to 468 00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:02,956 Speaker 2: tell my boss I'm I might not be working a 469 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:07,356 Speaker 2: one hundred percent the next couple of days. I'm in 470 00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 2: some pain. And because I've done that, I'm going through 471 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 2: the challenges of life. I'm riding them like a wave 472 00:31:19,236 --> 00:31:25,036 Speaker 2: much more naturally because I'm not gripping, because nothing requires 473 00:31:25,076 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 2: that kind of hold on me. And I think that 474 00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:35,436 Speaker 2: that was a success because I got to see this 475 00:31:35,636 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 2: cat off in this very peaceful and quiet way, and 476 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:46,636 Speaker 2: I had the luxury of work not intruding in that space. 477 00:31:50,316 --> 00:31:53,956 Speaker 2: And that's what I want for everyone, is to have 478 00:31:54,036 --> 00:31:59,396 Speaker 2: a spaciousness. I think that that is success. And when 479 00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:06,676 Speaker 2: work is all consuming and doesn't have boundaries and when 480 00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:11,076 Speaker 2: you are chasing something inside of work that you're honestly 481 00:32:11,116 --> 00:32:17,036 Speaker 2: never going to find, you lose all of this other beauty, 482 00:32:17,996 --> 00:32:23,276 Speaker 2: which is what a successful life really is. 483 00:32:43,356 --> 00:32:46,236 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Coming up on A 484 00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:49,196 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans, I speak to David Yaeger, a 485 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 1: professor of psychology and an expert on adolescent development. If 486 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:56,196 Speaker 1: you've ever wondered how to better support the young people 487 00:32:56,236 --> 00:32:59,236 Speaker 1: in your life, or if you're a young person wondering 488 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:02,556 Speaker 1: why on earth older people just can't seem to understand you, 489 00:33:03,156 --> 00:33:06,756 Speaker 1: this is the episode for you. David bus cultural myths 490 00:33:06,796 --> 00:33:09,836 Speaker 1: about the young adult brain and share some amazing science 491 00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:11,276 Speaker 1: about what's really going on. 492 00:33:11,916 --> 00:33:14,476 Speaker 3: You can think of the adolescent brain as like this 493 00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 3: social R and D engine of our culture. Something that 494 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:20,636 Speaker 3: looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their 495 00:33:20,676 --> 00:33:23,796 Speaker 3: way of creatively trying to solve the problem of having 496 00:33:24,076 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 3: more of the thing that brings you social success and 497 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:29,156 Speaker 3: fewer of the things that bring you social failure. 498 00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:42,516 Speaker 1: That's of next on A Slight Change of Plans. A 499 00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 500 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:49,476 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes our 501 00:33:49,516 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior producer Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 502 00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: producer Brianna Garrett, and our engineer eric I Wwang. Louis 503 00:33:58,836 --> 00:34:02,356 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped 504 00:34:02,436 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 505 00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:09,076 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to everyone there, 506 00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:13,276 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 507 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:16,236 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 508 00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:18,796 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.