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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're a kid

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Speaker 1: and you're growing up out in the heartland, rural areas,

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Speaker 1: you know what you spend most of the time doing,

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Speaker 1: other than probably working on property that your parents have.

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Speaker 1: You go to school, there's no city really to go

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Speaker 1: into and hang out at. You rely heavily on your

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Speaker 1: friends for entertainment. You entertain one another, actually, and those

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Speaker 1: forms of entertainment can involve any number of things. Sitting

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Speaker 1: around a bonfire, having a few beers even under a age,

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Speaker 1: riding around in the back of your buddy's pickup truck,

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Speaker 1: just going to spontaneous parties at someone's home. But you know,

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Speaker 1: even with all that going on on, you still there's

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Speaker 1: a level of safety and familiarity you have with that

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Speaker 1: location that you grow up in. Today, we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss a death that I guess now has been under

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Speaker 1: investigation for near about a year. It's a death that

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Speaker 1: occurred out in rural Oklahoma. It's a death involving a

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Speaker 1: young man who was found his body was found broken

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Speaker 1: and bleeding on the side of a road, wearing shoes

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Speaker 1: and nothing else but the shoes that he was wearing

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Speaker 1: didn't match. As a matter of fact, one of the

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Speaker 1: shoes belong to someone else. Today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the death and autopsy of no Oppress Grove. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. We

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Speaker 1: got a whole bunch of rural Now.

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Speaker 2: We live in a rural area. I'm not that dissimilar

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Speaker 2: from Coklahoma where Noah press Grove grew up. He's nineteen,

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Speaker 2: graduated from high school, and he's at an end of

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Speaker 2: summer Labor Day, twenty second birthday party all rolled into

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Speaker 2: one on this weekend. The reason we're talking about Noah

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Speaker 2: press Grove's death is because his autopsy has come out.

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Speaker 2: Police are still on investigating this as if it's a murder,

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Speaker 2: and yet it doesn't fit into a hit and run,

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Speaker 2: and the best that police can come up with is

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Speaker 2: that maybe he fell out of the back of a truck.

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Speaker 2: The injuries don't match that either. So today we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about the death and the autopsy of nineteen

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Speaker 2: year old Noah press Grove. But before we do that,

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Speaker 2: I want to say a very quick hello and thank

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Speaker 2: you to Jennifer Williamson Ward. She is a friend of

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCullum, and she sent a message to us about

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Speaker 2: this story, and Jennifer, I have to tell you I

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Speaker 2: mentioned it to Joe and in the world that we

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Speaker 2: live in terms of on the air radio and TV

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Speaker 2: and what have you and podcasting, this is a story

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Speaker 2: that Joe has covered extensively from Court, TV to Nancy.

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Speaker 1: To News Nation. I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's a crime related show, they asked Joe,

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Speaker 2: especially when it deals with something along the lines of

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Speaker 2: what we're getting ready to talk about, and that is

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Speaker 2: the death of a nineteen year old man who, by

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Speaker 2: the way, I've never seen a laundry list of injuries

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Speaker 2: so severe when there was not a murder investigation.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing, isn't it. You know, Because the injuries

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Speaker 1: are so extensive that he was presenting with at autopsy,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that the pathologist that's doing the examination

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Speaker 1: is scratching their head and they're thinking, well, where do

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Speaker 1: I begin, you know, because when they would have gotten

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Speaker 1: this young man's body, there would have been some external manifestations,

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Speaker 1: as we know that there were or relative to injuries

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Speaker 1: that could be evidenced externally. But you know, when I

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Speaker 1: can almost see because I've had to look on my face.

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Speaker 1: I can almost see the look on everyone's faces when

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Speaker 1: they started doing post mortm X rays on this kid's body,

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Speaker 1: and it would have been so glaringly obvious the trauma

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Speaker 1: that this kid sustained. Whenever you have a case like

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Speaker 1: this day, where you've got so much trauma, it's important

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Speaker 1: and it's almost like a game plan. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you go into a game, a big game, there's so

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Speaker 1: many moving parts. You need to have enough data on

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Speaker 1: your side to understand what you're going to do. Because

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Speaker 1: if you just go into a case like this randomly

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Speaker 1: without doing any kind of pre investigation or a pre

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Speaker 1: examination of the body, an external examination which includes X rays,

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Speaker 1: you're bumped around in the dark and you're going to

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Speaker 1: miss something. So if you can go in with this

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Speaker 1: idea of Okay, this is what the radiographs are showing me,

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Speaker 1: this is the information that has come in from law

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Speaker 1: enforcement that we're at the scene, this is information that

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Speaker 1: they have gotten through interviews. You need to be armed

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Speaker 1: with this because Dave, this is so complex, it's so intertwined,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know where where one group of injuries

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Speaker 1: stops and the other one starts, and The big thing

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Speaker 1: here is sequencing. How did all of this occur? Because

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Speaker 1: there's so much here.

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Speaker 2: So when a situation arises like this, in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: where there had been a party taking place over a

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Speaker 2: weekend and Noah's body is found at five point fifty

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Speaker 2: three am on September the fourth, now we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: last September. His body was found on the side of

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Speaker 2: the road. He was curled up in the fetal position,

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Speaker 2: naked except for as you mentioned, the mixed match shoes.

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Speaker 2: One was not even his Passing truck drivers saw him

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Speaker 2: and reported it called nine to one one. Now Noah

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Speaker 2: has a brother that had heard I don't know how okay,

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Speaker 2: but there was a lot of you know, calls are

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Speaker 2: being made early on of course a truck it's a.

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Speaker 1: Small town, and news travels.

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Speaker 2: He knew something had happened, that Noah was whatever, and

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Speaker 2: he goes to the scene. Now, by the time his

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Speaker 2: brother gets there, Noah's body has already been covered. But

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Speaker 2: he said he could recognize Noah from the shape of

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Speaker 2: his body, you know, on the ground. He was in

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Speaker 2: the fetal position, and the blood had soaked through the

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Speaker 2: sheet that they had covering him, and just so you

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Speaker 2: know that that would be the sheet whatever laying on

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Speaker 2: top of his body, on top of some area that

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Speaker 2: had blood, because if it was I tend to think

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Speaker 2: of seeping as going down, not up. But his brother

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Speaker 2: was talking about certain things that he saw at the scene,

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Speaker 2: and I in coming to this blind because I didn't

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Speaker 2: want any kind of preconceived notions as to what had

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Speaker 2: taken placetcha. And his brother said, I saw teeth, teeth,

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Speaker 2: and I'm okay, he's finding teeth and a pair of

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Speaker 2: shorts are folded.

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Speaker 1: Near him.

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Speaker 2: He's nude, he's in a fetal position. I find teeth

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Speaker 2: near his body, his teeth and a pair of shorts

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Speaker 2: folded near his body. So here we go, Joe. It's

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Speaker 2: just before six in the morning. Police show up. They

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Speaker 2: start doing the investigation. All right, he's been at a

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Speaker 2: party during the course of the weekend. The injuries to

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Speaker 2: this young man, we're going to have to go through

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Speaker 2: them very carefully because they are so extensive. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: I've never seen this in reporting these types of and

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Speaker 2: we've reported plenty situations where there was a weekend party,

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Speaker 2: a fight breaks out, a couple of guys gang up

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Speaker 2: on somebody. There are some bad tales to tell like

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Speaker 2: that this is if this is one of those, there

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Speaker 2: were probably ten different on their own fatal injuries to

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Speaker 2: Noah Press Grove that you.

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Speaker 1: Have had this, yeah it was. And you know, before

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Speaker 1: we step off into the world of the injuries, you

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Speaker 1: got to talk about the scene. This is a rural,

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Speaker 1: isolated area, and the one thing that sticks out to

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Speaker 1: me first off, the comment of the brother. I've worked

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Speaker 1: cases and it's well documented in all of the literature.

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Speaker 1: You can see this. When you have motor vehicle accidents,

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Speaker 1: there are people you know famously. Okay, let me start

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Speaker 1: off here. There's always there's this precept that is always

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Speaker 1: put forward that any time a pedestrian is struck by

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Speaker 1: a vehicle, they're automatically knocked out of their shoes. I've

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Speaker 1: had so many people tell me that over the years.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always happen. You know. It's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like you know, people talking about suicides and the weapon

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Speaker 1: being found away from the body, like the body is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be holding the weapon every That doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: every time, just like people are not always knocked out

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Speaker 1: of their shoes. That doesn't always happen. But I can

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Speaker 1: tell you what does happen many times with clothing in particular?

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Speaker 1: Is it clothing if you think about the spinning of

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Speaker 1: the tires when a body is struck, a pedestrian is

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Speaker 1: struck many times, if the body is captured beneath the

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Speaker 1: undercarriage of the car, the clothing will be twisted and

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Speaker 1: ripped off of the body. Dave, it's not what the

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Speaker 1: brother said. He said Noah was nude in a fetal position,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get to the teeth in a second. But

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Speaker 1: his undershorts were found on the road folded. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what had happened prior to Noah's brother arriving

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Speaker 1: at the scene. But if I hear that somebody's underwear

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Speaker 1: are folded, and I don't know how to validate this.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if the police have remarked about this

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Speaker 1: and explained this thing that the brother was witnessing. How

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Speaker 1: do undershorts wind up getting folded, Particularly if you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe the got ripped off in the accident, or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is it happened. Because whatever happened involved a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of impact, I don't I'll put it to this way.

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Speaker 1: I've actually worked parachute failures where the parachute failed to

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Speaker 1: deploy that have fewer fractures than this kid had. Wow,

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Speaker 1: let that sink in just for a second. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and that's and the reason is, it's pretty simple, is

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Speaker 1: that when a body is impacted, it's not generally impacted

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Speaker 1: on multiple locations with this amount of force to generate

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Speaker 1: underlying fractures. Okay, I'll just kind of plainly say that.

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Speaker 1: So that leaves us with, you know, a great, big,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of question mark here, wondering what was

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Speaker 1: the generator, how did this happen? How did he wind

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Speaker 1: up in this isolated area? And was there something more

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Speaker 1: that may have occurred at a party that Noah attended,

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Speaker 1: or did it occur as he was leaving the party

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Speaker 1: and wound up at this location? Dave you ever heard

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Speaker 1: that saying? It says, and it varies from time to time,

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Speaker 1: nothing good happens after eleven PM, or nothing good happened

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Speaker 1: after midnight. I know Noah was at a party and

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Speaker 1: kind of in and out. The details are a little

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Speaker 1: bit murky, a little, yeah, a little and I was

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Speaker 1: being calm and so there was a party. We know

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Speaker 1: that and it was a celebratory event and there were

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Speaker 1: many young people there. Can you kind of run this

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Speaker 1: top because tom Tommy does everything in this case, Can

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Speaker 1: you kind of break this down for us and give

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Speaker 1: us an idea.

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Speaker 2: The murky part of it is that there was social

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Speaker 2: media being fed pictures and what have you of all

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Speaker 2: of the partying that was going on. A girl turned

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Speaker 2: twenty two, somebody that all grew up with. We hit

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Speaker 2: this in the first segment about it being close knit.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knows one another. When everybody knows one another, you

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Speaker 2: have a tendency to have smoldering problems. You got an

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Speaker 2: issue with somebody and maybe you're not tight with them.

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Speaker 2: You're tight with these people, but now you're in together

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Speaker 2: and I just don't like that guy. You know, never

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Speaker 2: have hated him in third grade. You know he wiped

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Speaker 2: a book around me or something.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it stays with you in a town like

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Speaker 2: in an area like this. But this party was going on.

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Speaker 2: It was a it was well, first of all Labor

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Speaker 2: Day weekend. It was a twenty second birthday party for

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Speaker 2: a girl. It was an end of summer party for

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Speaker 2: the adults. Most of these kids were out of high school.

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Speaker 2: Noah had graduated a year previously, and he was looking

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Speaker 2: at a future that included possibly joined the military. That's

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Speaker 2: what he was considering. So they gathered together at this

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Speaker 2: party over a weekend. Now, my first thought when I

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Speaker 2: saw it was, this is one of those kind of

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Speaker 2: keggers that you go to on a Friday night and

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Speaker 2: you know, it kind of goes on all weekend.

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Speaker 1: You party, listen to music.

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Speaker 2: The next day, you wake up whenever, and you know

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Speaker 2: pretty much go right back to it. But that's not

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Speaker 2: what happened. It was a multi day event that took place.

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Speaker 2: But the part of yours left, or at least Noah

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Speaker 2: left and went home and cleaned himself up and then

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Speaker 2: went back the next night. During the course of this

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Speaker 2: weekend Labor Day weekend event, Noah did have as well.

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Speaker 1: Back up.

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Speaker 2: Noah and five other guys, six guys rode this big ATV.

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Speaker 2: It's referred to as a ranger vehicle, an ATV ranger vehicle.

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Speaker 2: Noah and five other people are on this ranger vehicle

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Speaker 2: and they had an accident. It wasn't bumping into a car,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't bumping into a pole, it wasn't hitting a curb.

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Speaker 2: It was a rollover incident. First of all, these ATV

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Speaker 2: Ranger vehicles are not cheap. They are adult toys, yes,

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Speaker 2: and it was an adult toy that got rolled over.

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Speaker 2: The way they make it seem is that Noah might

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Speaker 2: have been the driver of said vehicle. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if that's the case, but one thing we do know

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Speaker 2: is that it was bad enough that when he came

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Speaker 2: up dead, that was the first thing people thought of, Hey,

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Speaker 2: he got hurt in this ATV accident. He did get hurt,

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Speaker 2: but not bad enough that it required him to go

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Speaker 2: to the hospital or anything. He was hurt, but he

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Speaker 2: went back to the party.

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Speaker 1: You know, Dave, when you have events and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: a rollover event, and these Ranger vehicles they come in

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Speaker 1: a couple of different configurations. You have two seater or

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Speaker 1: a four seater. They make this thing sound like it's

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Speaker 1: like a four seater. They've got roll bars on them.

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Speaker 1: So if the thing tips over and they're talking about

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Speaker 1: rollover event, just because there's a rollover doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you're not going to sustain injuries. And I have seen

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Speaker 1: I have seen people, Dave, that have been involved in

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Speaker 1: motor vehicle accidents. Where they get up and they are walking, talking,

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Speaker 1: fully oriented to time and space, and eight hours later

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Speaker 1: they die. And that's because something along the way was

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Speaker 1: clipped internally, generally some type of smaller vessel, and it's

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Speaker 1: a slow bloe internally, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it's classic. What you begin to see is that suddenly

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Speaker 1: they become very sleepy, speech becomes slurred, they become disoriented,

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Speaker 1: and then the next thing you know, they're out cold

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Speaker 1: on the ground and they've got this kind of it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a death rattle they have because they're slipping

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Speaker 1: off into a coma because they're losing blood and the

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Speaker 1: oxygen level, the supply to the brain is dropping precipitously

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Speaker 1: and it's a horrible thing to witness. This does in

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Speaker 1: fact happen, So we can't completely discard that possibility that

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Speaker 1: it's you know, we talk a lot about the totality

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Speaker 1: of injuries that an individual sustains, that it might not

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Speaker 1: be just singularly a one time event. It could be

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Speaker 1: a combination of events, and I'm sure that that's what

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Speaker 1: the pathologist was trying to consider in this, And I.

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Speaker 2: Think it's important to note that it was about enough

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Speaker 2: accident that it was brought up that he was not hurt,

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Speaker 2: because it's the assumption that if you say, well, he

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Speaker 2: wasn't hurt, he actually must have shown some injury, but

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Speaker 2: not bad enough.

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Speaker 1: Too quick.

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Speaker 2: You're nineteen, you're ten fee telling bulletproof for grying out lot.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh my gosh. Yeah. And look if you here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, and this is kind of kind of cool scientifically,

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Speaker 1: if you sustain let's say you sustain an injury, and

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't think much of it at the time,

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Speaker 1: it hurts upon initial impact. What your body begins to do,

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Speaker 1: there's a trauma response in your body. So let's just

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Speaker 1: say you have a broken rib, you get popped in aside,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know that necessarily that this is some

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Speaker 1: kind of fatal or lethal event, but yet it hurts.

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Speaker 1: But it's something it's not something that you know is

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Speaker 1: going to get you down on your knees, all right.

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Speaker 1: But what the trauma response in the body is is that,

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Speaker 1: first off, it's going to hemorrhage, and secondly, it's going

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Speaker 1: to swell. And we know for a fact that swelling

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Speaker 1: or the echymosis that surrounds that damaged tissue. Dave it

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Speaker 1: takes a prescribed amount of time for that to happen.

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Speaker 1: So when you're examining somebody in the morgue and you're

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Speaker 1: looking for these injuries and trying to interpret them, one

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Speaker 1: of the things you're going to look for are these

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Speaker 1: little breadcrumbs to say, Okay, you know what, this injury

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Speaker 1: might be older than these other ones that occurred at

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Speaker 1: the time of death. First off, if something occurred at

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Speaker 1: the time of death, it's not going to be presenting

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Speaker 1: with the amount of swelling. For instance, that something that

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Speaker 1: had happened hours before or a day before may be

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Speaker 1: experiencing it'll it'll look completely different. How do you make

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Speaker 1: sense of all of this when you have, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: old injuries that are now potentially being coupled with new

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Speaker 1: injuries that are discovered at autopsy. Maybe these things are

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Speaker 1: even recognized out on the scene. How is it that

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Speaker 1: you're able as a scientists to delineate between what is

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Speaker 1: older and what is newer. Sometimes those answers are not

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Speaker 1: as obvious as you might think that they are. I

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Speaker 1: don't normally do this sort of thing on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I got to tell you, I got to give

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Speaker 1: you a word of warning. What we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about right now is even by bodyback Sanders is kind

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Speaker 1: of graphic, but it has to be stated. And I'm

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Speaker 1: going to try in my own little way to interpret

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Speaker 1: and give you an idea of what might could generate

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Speaker 1: these types of injuries. And in many cases there are

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Speaker 1: multiple ways that these types of injuries can be generated.

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Speaker 2: But you get the police theory that he was thrown

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Speaker 2: out the back of a truck that was moving jail.

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Speaker 2: I want you guys to pay attention to these injuries

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Speaker 2: because you're not going to find if you were thrown

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Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck, You're going to

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Speaker 2: have road rash over your legs, you're gonna have arms,

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Speaker 2: You're going to have a lot of those type And

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that because I've been thrown out of the

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Speaker 2: back of the truck. I'm not by friends throwing me out.

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Speaker 2: We actually were being stupid and I fell, and I

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Speaker 2: know the injuries I had and we weren't. You know,

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Speaker 2: they were all over and my legs took the brunt

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Speaker 2: of it for the most part, these feet, ankles, what

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Speaker 2: have you. And he does not have those types of

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Speaker 2: injuries that actually match up to someone that was pitched

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Speaker 2: out of the back of a truck. I'm just saying

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Speaker 2: that because as we break these down, that's what I

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Speaker 2: went into it thinking happened, and I went, how did

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Speaker 2: they even say that out loud? Take a look at

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Speaker 2: this list, Joe, that you're going and I want you

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Speaker 2: to explain just right off the bat, ten broken ribs.

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Speaker 1: With ten broken ribs is really something that and you

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Speaker 1: have to think about the orientation of these fractures. Are

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Speaker 1: they all married up, like on the horizontal plane to

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Speaker 1: kind of match up as you go down the rib cage,

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Speaker 1: you know, like when you're going down the fifth rib

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Speaker 1: and the fifth rib, are they both concurrently fractured? And

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Speaker 1: does it approximate the same anatomical location. If that's happening,

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Speaker 1: then maybe you took a full on impact of a

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Speaker 1: motor vehicle striking you in your chest and you're on

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Speaker 1: your knees. Probability of that is very low because you

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Speaker 1: would have other associated things that you would find with that.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that you get with fractured ribs is

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Speaker 1: something that folks may or may not have heard of before.

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Speaker 1: It's called a flail chest. And what happens is is

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Speaker 1: that when your ribs are fractured, they're almost free floating

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Speaker 1: within your chest cavity, and you'll get multiple lung punctures,

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Speaker 1: and your lungs and your plural spaces, which are the

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Speaker 1: area around your lungs, begin to fill with blood. So

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Speaker 1: you have that going on in and of itself with

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Speaker 1: the ribs, And to get ten broken ribs, Dave, is

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Speaker 1: something that I don't know that I don't know that

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Speaker 1: you would get from a single event. You might get

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Speaker 1: that from a single event, but there's not going to

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Speaker 1: be this many other associated injuries. Just think about it.

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Speaker 1: Just think about it. If you were a kid and

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Speaker 1: you were in a tree house, okay, and you fell

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Speaker 1: out of the treehouse, you're going to impact on one

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Speaker 1: location on your body, maybe the back of your head,

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Speaker 1: maybe your shoulder, maybe your hip. Maybe you're going to

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Speaker 1: bend your knees under you, you know, Lord help you,

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Speaker 1: and land on both of your knees from a height.

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Speaker 1: But that's a single point of impact, Dave. We had

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Speaker 1: stuff here that at least implies that they're like multiple

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Speaker 1: impacts with a significant amount of force, because you're talking

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Speaker 1: about underlying fractures, Dave.

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Speaker 2: And that's fine, I said, earlier that there are at

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Speaker 2: least ten injuries that, on their own, with nothing else,

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Speaker 2: could have been fatal. Go through the rest of this show.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to sit, hear and shut up because I really,

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Speaker 2: for the life.

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Speaker 1: Of it, I think I think the thing that is.

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Speaker 2: It's frustrated by what the police have said.

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Speaker 1: I it is frustrating. I think probably no way.

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Speaker 2: This didn't have that happened by jump falling out of

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Speaker 2: the back of a truck.

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Speaker 1: That did not happen. Well, maybe if you fell out

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Speaker 1: of the back of the truck multiple times, is what

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to say. Yeah, let me hope back up

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Speaker 2: and try that again. I didn't break my leg this time.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I know. And that's that's kind of you

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Speaker 1: know what you're thinking about. And I know that they're

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Speaker 1: thinking about this. The me is certainly thinking about this.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to generate and listen again, I go

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Speaker 1: back to this idea that they've left the scene unclassified.

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Speaker 1: You know, they have not classified it. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: a big you know, that's a big piece to this

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Speaker 1: because you know, the cops can say basically whatever they

401
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Speaker 1: want to say about what they're seeing at the scene.

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Speaker 1: How if the me is not signing off on this

403
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Speaker 1: thing with a particular classification, that gives me an indication

404
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Speaker 1: that they're still wanting more information that they're scratching their

405
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Speaker 1: heads over. I think probably the thing that jumps out

406
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Speaker 1: the most is that, you know, they talked about this

407
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Speaker 1: one central impact to the skull, which Dave I got

408
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Speaker 1: to tell you. It sounds like, and it's a it's

409
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Speaker 1: apparently a very very extensive injury, but it sounds like

410
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Speaker 1: a single impact that is almost being described as a

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Speaker 1: It seems to me is almost like a depressed skull fracture,

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Speaker 1: which means that it's not the skull is not just

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Speaker 1: simply fractured where you fracture like if you have a

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Speaker 1: Bowld egg and you kind of crack it, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it creates like this kind of curvelinear, you know, manifestation,

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Speaker 1: whereas we're talking about if you take that egg and

417
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Speaker 1: press it in, if you've ever done that with a

418
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Speaker 1: bold egg, you press it in on the sides and

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Speaker 1: it literally depresses and you have it's almost like a

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Speaker 1: that it creates and it kind of spider whebs out.

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Speaker 1: That kind of sounds like what they're talking about that

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Speaker 1: sounds like a depressed skull fracture. How do you get that? Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess you could get it if you hit just

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Speaker 1: right on the back of your head on the road.

425
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Speaker 1: But you know, I've seen depressed skull fractures with baseball bats, hammers, pipes.

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Speaker 1: I've seen people with depressed skull fractures that have been

427
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Speaker 1: pistol whipped. I'm not saying any of that happened, but

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Speaker 1: just that injury alone, that injury alone, just standing all

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Speaker 1: by itself, is a lethal injury. Because dude, when they

430
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Speaker 1: opened up his skull, there was a copious amount of

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Speaker 1: blood that poured out of the cranial vault.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, it means that you've got multiple vessels within the

434
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: skull that are fractured. And if you like that one,

435
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: I got one that's even worse. And this is something

436
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: I have never mentioned on this podcas cast. If you

437
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: will put your fingers adjacent to your external ear canal

438
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: on both sides, If you put your your index fingers

439
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: on both sides, imagine drawing a line through the floor

440
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: of your skull. Right there. Noah has got what sounds

441
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: like a hinge fracture. And the hinge fracture literally involves

442
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: going all the way across the floor of the skull internally,

443
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: so that and these fractures are amazing. When you see them,

444
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: you get an idea of how much force is involved

445
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: when you remove the brain after you've taken the skull

446
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: cap off where this other fracture would have been. When

447
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: you remove the brain, that's where all this blood is

448
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: coming from. You grab the top of the skull up

449
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: by the forehead where you've made your incision, and the

450
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: back of the skull. You can actually open the skull

451
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: along the floor of the skull and it looks like

452
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: a giant mouth like moving like this, and it goes

453
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: all the way across many times either anterior or right

454
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: across the foreime and magnum, which is where your spinal

455
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: cord dumps down into your spinal column. And I've seen

456
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: it involved in both locations, and it's like this gaping

457
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: maw that's in there, Dave, that created that you have

458
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: to have so much force in order to generate that

459
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: insult alone that it's it gives you pause. Okay, Hine.

460
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: Fractures don't occur all the time, and when you see them,

461
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, if you're standing there with the

462
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, they'll say, oh my god, we got a

463
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: hinge fracture. You know, it's like, okay, you get the

464
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: photography person over there. You're going to want to take

465
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: a picture of this. Not that you wouldn't otherwise, but

466
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: the pathologist is going to want like a tremendous number

467
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: of photographs taken of this, because this is a significant finding.

468
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: You look at that in and of itself, all of

469
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: that head trauma is just absolutely amazing. Now he's got

470
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: brained damage in a sense that it's traumatically related. So

471
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: you'll have both in dwelling hemorrhage within the brain itself.

472
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: There's external damage to the brain. There'll be a lot

473
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: of blood, coagulated blood more than likely that is just

474
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: resting on the surface of the brain and certainly within

475
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: the dura sack, which if you think of the dura

476
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: sac that encompasses the brain, it's almost like a placenta.

477
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, it actually if you take the

478
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: dura matter and laid alongside a placenta, it looks a

479
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: lot like that. It's kind of a protective bag that

480
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: encases the brain itself. It's a wash and spinal fluid.

481
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: It kind of lubricates the brain because you wouldn't want

482
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: your brain just sitting inside your skull because the edges

483
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: are so rough in there, and so the dura acts

484
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: almost like a shock absorber for the brain, so you

485
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: would have a tremendous amount of blod contained in there.

486
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: There were four separate areas of trauma on the organ,

487
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: the brain itself, and not to mention this trauma, we

488
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: talk about cerebrospinal trauma. Okay, you hear doctors talk about

489
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: this a lot. So his Noah's head and brain were

490
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: not a skull and brain were not just impacted, but

491
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: also his spinal cord. You get down to the sea one,

492
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: you've got multiple cervical vertebra and the C one is

493
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: what classically we refer to as the atlas. If you

494
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: think about the Titan Atlas from Greek mythology, Atlas is

495
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: that gigantic being that is holding up the earth. And

496
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: the reason they calls C one the atlas is because

497
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: it is literally where the skull is resting and supporting

498
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: from a skeletal standpoint, it's supporting the skull that the

499
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: C one Dave in this case is actually displaced. Okay,

500
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: So it's been it's been knocked out for a lack

501
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: of a better term in Layman's. In Layman's terms, it

502
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: has been displaced. So it's kind of knocked knocked out

503
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: of alignment. As a matter of fact, some have described

504
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: this as a displacement that might be consistent with what

505
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: you would see in a judicial hanging, which leads to death.

506
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: So if you you know, when people talk about the

507
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: snapping of a neck when they're falling from a height,

508
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: the C one C two is what's impacted, and you

509
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: know when people are are in judicial hangings, that's what

510
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything self inflicted here.

511
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: The goal was that that would fall from such a

512
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: height that it would displace the C one and C two,

513
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: which are a critical level in the spot that if

514
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: those things are displaced, it's incompatible with life, okay, because

515
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: it impacts those basic those basic functions that are required

516
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: just for the autonomic nervous system to fire, you know,

517
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: like keeping your heart beating and doing you know, respirations

518
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: and all that other regulatory stuff. So that that has

519
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: been impacted, for lack of a better term. Uh, we've

520
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: got What they found was a skin on the left

521
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: side of the scalp had been torn away, off of

522
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: the brain, off the forgive me, off of the bone,

523
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: So it means it's been ripped from the skull itself,

524
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: which again is kind of a friction related type of event.

525
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: You know, I guess you could say that somebody could

526
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: have traumatized him individually, but most of the time you

527
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: see something like that, that's the idea of the dynamic

528
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: of somebody perhaps rolling down the road.

529
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: Uh.

530
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's it goes from an abrasion to

531
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: a tearing laceration where it's kind of ripped through. And

532
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: as the police began to work the scene where Noah's found,

533
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't just teeth. You know that. We're out there

534
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: at the scene and we'll get to that in just

535
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: a second. But you know, Dave, they actually found a

536
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: clump of hair and skin away from the body in

537
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, which means that's probably hair

538
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: that is attached to a portion of the scalp that

539
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: was torn away it was laying there. Again, that requires

540
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of force. You've got the buttock the

541
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: right buttock is traumatized. Here's another thing that you know,

542
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: we talked about teeth, both upper and lower. So you're

543
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: talking about your maxillary teeth, which are your upper teeth,

544
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: and your mangellary teeth, which are embedded in your jaw.

545
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Your lower teeth they're broken and they're in fragments. And

546
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: you've also got upper and lower teeth that are strewn

547
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: across the roadway. Dave. You know when when people talk

548
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: about having trauma to the mouth and they lose a tooth,

549
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: what do they say? They generally don't say I got

550
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: my teeth knocked out. They say I got a tooth

551
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: knocked out. Right, Brother, he's got teeth that are fractured

552
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: and missing, Okay, that are strewn about. Now we have

553
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: to think that again, this could be a high velocity

554
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: impact event where he may very well have fallen on

555
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: the ground. But you know, my thought was, well, it

556
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: obviously involves a head more than likely that depressed area

557
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: in the in the skull that generated the initial injury.

558
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: But now you've got teeth that are coming out of his.

559
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: Head like a curb stomp.

560
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't know, but with fractured teeth, it's

561
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: certainly I'd like to know. I think one of the

562
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: things I'd be very interested in knowing, and I don't

563
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: necessarily have this information. I would like to know what

564
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: kind of trauma existed relative to the exterior of the mouth,

565
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: like the lips and the jaw.

566
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: Now, he did have a cut on his lip, and

567
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: he had a cut on his tongue. But can I

568
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: back up to something that absolutely sure? Okay, you mentioned

569
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: the clump of hair that was found in the middle

570
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: of the highway. Well, there was a clump of hair

571
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 2: that was observed on the right buttock without blood or tissue,

572
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: and it was specific to that without blood or tissue. Yes,

573
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: And it was different than the clump of hair that

574
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: was found in the middle of the road. It was

575
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: like this that he was tortured the hair and it

576
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: was put there for a reason.

577
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And who's to know what the dynamic

578
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: of this event is. He is nude, so how with

579
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: hair from the head presumably, And they don't specify what

580
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: the nature of the hair is. I mean, it might

581
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: be pubic hair, I guess, Yeah, could be hair off

582
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: of his chest. I have no idea, but they do

583
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: make a point of that where they're talking about a

584
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: clump of hair. Clump of hair gives you an idea

585
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: that something has been pulled loose right, that it has

586
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: been taken out at the root perhaps are broken off

587
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: superior to the root ball, and that this has been

588
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: left behind. How does that hair? And I think a

589
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: question I would ask as a forensics guy, I'd want

590
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: to validate that hair. I'd want to know was it

591
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: Noah's hair? First off? Was it human hair? Was it

592
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: an animal? We're talking about out in the wild and

593
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: there's animal hair on the roadway, you know, I'd argue that,

594
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: I'd say, well, how do we know the provenance of

595
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: the hair? You know, what's point of origin? What species

596
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: is it? Is it his? Does it? Does it look

597
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: like his hair color? Is he missing hair that had

598
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: been torn out? Other than the sibility?

599
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: Animal could have done it?

600
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's just it. And to this point,

601
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence that an animal has been

602
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: involved in this. I would just like to know the

603
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: origin of it. You know, all we can do in

604
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: forensics is document what we see there. It's hard to

605
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: really extrapolate further than that, but it is it is

606
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: certainly an interesting finding. I don't know that I've ever

607
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: seen that kind of phraseology before that.

608
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: I haven't, and I read these things all the time,

609
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: and I have done stories where a hair was pulled out,

610
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: you know. It just sounds like the most painful thing.

611
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: Of course, on this list of things, I'm still beyond

612
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: the pale Joe. But the he's bleeding out of his ears, yes,

613
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: got teeth thrown everywhere.

614
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: Bleeding out of the ears is consistent with the hinge fracture,

615
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: by the way, and you would probably also, yeah, and

616
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: you probably if looking closely, you could probably see cerebral

617
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: spinal fluid. You know how they when you're a kid

618
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: and if you take a first A class, they tell

619
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: you to look for a clear fluid coming from the ears.

620
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: That's That's what I'm talking about. So you'll get this

621
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: kind of co mingled with hine fracture. You'll see kind

622
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: of a commingled cerebral spinal fluid along with blood, and

623
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: it's got kind of a straw color to it. A

624
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: matter of fact, pathologists will describe it as having a

625
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: straw like appearance, the color of straw, and it's tinged

626
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: with blood. So that would come from from that area,

627
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: and again that goes to something has happened that has

628
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: compromised the structural integrity of the spinal column with this displacement.

629
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: And brother, it wasn't just as C one. You know,

630
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: I failed to mention that he's got fractured C two,

631
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: which obviously is just beneath the C one and C six.

632
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: We're going down the column now. C six and C

633
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: seven were also fractured to varying degrees. And there's multiple

634
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: features on each one of these things. You've got these

635
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: horns that are on it, and there's various anatomical features

636
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: where it can be fractured. Again. You know, vertebral bodies,

637
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: just in and of themselves are one of the most

638
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: They are a very robust bone. And when I say

639
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 1: that they're thick, they they're therefore, I mean, think about

640
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: what they're protecting, man, I mean, they're protecting your spinal column.

641
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: It's just like the skull, particularly on the back, is

642
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: very robust and thick. It's it is that way for

643
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: a very specific reason. So you've defeated the impact has

644
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: essentially defeated this naturally occurring structure within the body that

645
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 1: is meant to take a tremendous amount of punishment. So how,

646
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: you know, how does it account for all of these

647
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: other insults that he has all over his body? And again,

648
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: you know, look, I've got a state full disclosure here.

649
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: You know, he's got what they're describing as grazes. There's abrasions,

650
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: and you've got them on multiple, multiple surfaces, which many

651
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: times are associated with rollover injury. So if you've got

652
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: scrapes and abrasions and they're kind of wrap what they

653
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: call wrap around injuries, that's traditionally what you're looking for.

654
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: So if the if the vehicle is spinning, the body

655
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: will be spinning, okay, and you hit asphalt gravel, you're

656
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: going to get this horrible dynamic that where you'll have

657
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: these upbraided and they'll they'll be linear many times, and

658
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: they'll cut a wide swath. You know, I'll never forget.

659
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: I had a cousin of mine who was literally run

660
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: over by a dump truck when he was working on

661
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: a levy in Louisiana. He had the tire tracks across

662
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: his Uh. He's got this great picture of tire tracks

663
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: running across his chest.

664
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: Uh.

665
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: You can actually his tandem wheels and you can see it,

666
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: and he survived, but he had all those and I

667
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: remember it from when I was a little kid. We

668
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: were amazed. I mean, we thank god that he survived.

669
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: He wound up becoming a preacher, and yeah, it does.

670
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: And you could see all that one. Yeah, you could

671
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: see all these abrasions, and that's it was. The tire

672
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: tread itself left an impression. But it's also braiding the

673
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: skin as it's rolling over. You take that and you

674
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: think about the dynamic of a body flying through the

675
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: air and spinning makes contact with a rough surface like

676
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: a roadway, You're going to get those same kind of rasions.

677
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: Dave, Well, Joe, Now there were other things that were

678
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: on his body that they were able to determine that.

679
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: We're in various stages of healing abrasions and scabs and

680
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: what have you. But with have you ever seen have

681
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: you ever seen anything like this where there wasn't some

682
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 2: type of mechanical failure with a car, a boat, being

683
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: thrown from a building, of any number of things. This

684
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: is ostensibly a kid, a nineteen year old young man

685
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: leaves a party after an argument and is by himself

686
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 2: and ends up with all these injuries. Police are saying

687
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: they're not investigating it like it's a murder. There By

688
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: the way, for those who think there was a hit

689
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: and run involved to cause these types of injuries, there

690
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: was no. Uh, there's nothing indicating there was a hit

691
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: and run. There were no parts of a car.

692
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: No skid marks, nothing, nothing. And look one other thing.

693
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't mean to jump on you here,

694
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: or not jump on you, but interrupt you. When you

695
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: think about a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle, there's

696
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 1: something that we refer to as bumper marks. So if

697
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about being struck in the thigh or the

698
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 1: lower legs, you'll have a definitive line. And think about

699
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: a bumper on a car, it makes sense. It's two

700
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: parallel lines like this running hors and the horizontal plane.

701
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: They're striking you if you're standing erect and you can

702
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: clearly see that many times, Dave, I've even seen grill

703
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: impressions on bodies where I saw I can't remember. I

704
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: think it was a buick where I saw the buick

705
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: the buick emblem literally pressed into the skin. And so

706
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: that's a classic finding and grill marks too, classic finding

707
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: of a pedestrian being struck by a vehicle. But you're

708
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: you're not hearing You're not hearing this, And so I

709
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: think that's their default position, is falling out of the

710
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: back of a truck as opposed to being struck by

711
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: a vehicle that is going through the person out me

712
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: through literally. But you know where where you've got a

713
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: static individual stand in the middle of the road and

714
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: they're struck by vehicle, those injuries are going to look different.

715
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: And this is this is almost and here's here's another theory.

716
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: I really, I really wonder Dave all of these injuries

717
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: that he sustained. I'm wondering, I'm really wondering if he

718
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: if he had come out of a vehicle wound up

719
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: on the roadway. Was there another vehicle that passed by

720
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: that didn't see him in the middle of the night

721
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: and then ran over him again that has happened. It's

722
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: a dark road. He was not found until the next morning.

723
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: There was a trucker that found him, you know, there

724
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: in the light of day. I think that all of

725
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: these things have to be factored in to the totality

726
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: of these circumstances to try to understand it and then

727
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: there's this specter that people keep talking about. I don't

728
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: know how to either validate it or invalidated. I'm in

729
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: the same position I think that the medical examiner is

730
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: in just talking. Of course, I don't have that level

731
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: of responsibility here, but that's the pieces of the puzzle

732
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: for the me to put this thing together so that

733
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: they can actually come up with a ruling where they're

734
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, this was an accident, this was

735
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: a homicide, or however they're going to come down on

736
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: this thing. I wonder what it will be that will

737
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: push them toward that decision. Because I got to tell you, Dave,

738
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: all this data, all this data, the timeline, the information

739
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: about an ATV accident that still remains a mystery, and

740
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: the combination of all of these injuries and their documentation

741
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 1: feels as though we still don't have any more answers

742
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: than when we first started. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

743
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: this is Body Backs