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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She was found frozen, mutilated,

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Speaker 1: her face covered in maggots. She a beloved teacher, a nun.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'm talking about Kathy, says NIC's sister Cathy.

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Speaker 1: To this day, her murder unsolved, questions echoing did the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church cover up this horrific crime on a beautiful

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Speaker 1: young nun? But more, who murdered sister Kathy? I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is crime Stories and I want answers. Sister Kathy

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Speaker 1: was reported missing when she did not return home to

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Speaker 1: her apartment one evening, the apartment she shared with another nun.

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Speaker 1: She had gone out to buy a gift, as I recall,

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Speaker 1: a wedding gift her sister was getting married. It was

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Speaker 1: Christmas time, everybody was shopping. It was leading up to

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Speaker 1: Christmas anyways, towards the end of November, and it was busy.

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Speaker 1: She went to a local shopping center. And the thing

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Speaker 1: that I know for sure is she went to one

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Speaker 1: of her favorite bakeries. And I believe she made it

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Speaker 1: to the bakery and came out of the bakery and

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Speaker 1: got in her car because the fresh buns were still

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Speaker 1: sitting on the seat. The passenger seat upfront in her

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Speaker 1: car when her car was finally located. Kathy Saysnick's sister,

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Speaker 1: Katherine Saysnick was beautiful, popular, a twenty six year old

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Speaker 1: young nun who had taught at an all girls Catholic

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Speaker 1: school in Baltimore, last seen by her roommate, another young nun,

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Speaker 1: when she took off that evening after she got home.

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Speaker 1: November seventh, Friday Night now Friday night. As I recall

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Speaker 1: with me Jimma Hoskins on the story Shane Waters, private

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Speaker 1: investigator and podcaster, Karen Stark, renowned at New York psychologist

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Speaker 1: and Crime Stories investigative reporter John Limley to Jimma Hoskins,

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you with us as we

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Speaker 1: try to put the pieces together of this puzzle. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying not to think of sister Kathy being found in

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Speaker 1: that field, her body frozen and mutilated and her face

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Speaker 1: covered in maggots. I'm trying to focus on the night

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Speaker 1: she goes missing. There was a bi monthly ritual where

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Speaker 1: both the girls, both the ladies would get their checks

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Speaker 1: and they would go deposit it. And they had gotten

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Speaker 1: their checks that day. I believe the checks were deposited

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Speaker 1: by sister Kathy before she went shopping at the bakery.

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Speaker 1: To tell me, you're piecing together the timeline, Jemma Hoskins. Well,

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Speaker 1: thanking Nancy by the way for having me on your program.

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Speaker 1: This is an opportunity for us to keep the attention

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Speaker 1: on the story because it's still a cold case. Our

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Speaker 1: understanding that Kathy came home from school and she had

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Speaker 1: talked to a student that afternoon a back going shopping

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Speaker 1: for her sister because her sister Marilyn was getting married.

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Speaker 1: She was very excited about that. So, as far as

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Speaker 1: we know, she went out probably around seven to seven

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Speaker 1: thirty after having dinner. Sister Russell was still at the apartment.

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Speaker 1: Kathy traveled not very far, maybe ten minutes to a

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Speaker 1: local shopping center in Baltimore. She did deposit her check.

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Speaker 1: We do know that the money was in the bank

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Speaker 1: and the receipt for that deposit is in you know,

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Speaker 1: the police have that. We do know that she bought

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Speaker 1: the buns. Now, the bakery was inside a large department

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Speaker 1: store and it was very popular. It had a number

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Speaker 1: of chains around Baltimore. It was named Muley's and for

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Speaker 1: folks who have seen the keepers they will remember that

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Speaker 1: that box of buns was actually on the floor of

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Speaker 1: the passenger seat, and the trash can on the hump,

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Speaker 1: thet the little bucket that we all used to have

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Speaker 1: in her cars was also knocked over to the passenger side,

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Speaker 1: and those crime scene photos are actually in the keepers.

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Speaker 1: It's if I speculate, then everybody the world will say, well,

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Speaker 1: Gemma knows what happened. And Gemma doesn't know what happened,

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Speaker 1: but I do believe that someone accosted her in the

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Speaker 1: car and possibly forced her over to the passenger seat.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that, but that's what I'm assuming. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it could have been in any way Jemma Hoskins,

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Speaker 1: because we know she cast a two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: five dollars check just before she disappears. It was a

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Speaker 1: routine trip. Either sister Kathy or her roommate made the

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Speaker 1: trip to the bank every other Friday with their paychecks

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Speaker 1: from the city school system. That bakery box was on

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Speaker 1: you're saying, not the front car seat, as I had found,

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Speaker 1: but on the floorboard of the front car seat. And

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Speaker 1: that's significant. It was on the floor. That's significant because

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Speaker 1: you know what it says to me if it were

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Speaker 1: me and I were driving and I wanted to eat

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Speaker 1: something from the bakery, which has happened way too many times,

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Speaker 1: I would have it sitting on the seat, the passenger seat,

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Speaker 1: so I could reach over and get it, not the floorboard.

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Speaker 1: So why did she put it in the floorboard. It

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Speaker 1: actually was wrapped up. You can see the box. It's

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Speaker 1: tied with cord in both directions. It's not mashed, it's

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Speaker 1: it's you know, intact, and it is on the floor

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Speaker 1: of the passenger side. And that was from HECT right exactly.

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Speaker 1: HC ht Sum. There was a bakery, Mule's Bakery, within

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Speaker 1: Hex department store, correct, So I believe someone actually saw

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Speaker 1: her there. But we don't need an eyewitness because we

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Speaker 1: know she made it that far. Now Hex Bakery, Mule's

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Speaker 1: Bakery was someone There was someone there following her after

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Speaker 1: she cast her check. Did she ever make it to

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Speaker 1: buy and didn't she buy a necklace? Is that what

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Speaker 1: she bought for the sister? Well, that's what we've assumed.

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Speaker 1: Now we have indications that she may not have bought anything.

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Speaker 1: The police have an interview with someone at the Bridal

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Speaker 1: Registry and the Heck Company and it indicates that Kathy

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Speaker 1: was asking questions about how to set up a bridal registry.

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Speaker 1: So we have a question mark about the necklace. We

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Speaker 1: don't know and there was no receipt found or anything

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Speaker 1: in the car that indicated that a gift had been bought.

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Speaker 1: There was no car. Did she still have the money

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Speaker 1: from the cash she'd either? I think she cast some

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Speaker 1: of the check. What happened to the cash? The cash

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Speaker 1: was not in the car she cast her check. So

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Speaker 1: before I say that there was a giant cover up

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Speaker 1: within the archdiocese church where she she had taught for

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Speaker 1: so long Archbishop Kyo High School, before I claim that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, could it have been Jemma that somebody saw

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Speaker 1: her with an expensive necklace she just bought, followed her

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Speaker 1: out so or somebody got her after she cast a

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Speaker 1: check the money was nowhere to be found. Are those

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Speaker 1: viable options? Or no? Just I don't have a dog

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Speaker 1: in the fight. I just want the truth. Both are possible.

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Speaker 1: We did have the necklace analyzed by a gemologist at

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Speaker 1: a story store last year, and he indicated that it

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Speaker 1: was probably one of a number of necklaces that were

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Speaker 1: made more as a novelty for birthstones. And he said

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Speaker 1: at that time, in nineteen sixty nine, it was probably

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Speaker 1: worth about fifteen dollars, so it wouldn't have been high

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Speaker 1: end jewelry, but fifteen dollars to a teacher who's making

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty dollars every two weeks would be

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Speaker 1: a lot of money, So we're not sure about that.

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Speaker 1: Of course, it's possible that someone may have seen her

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Speaker 1: deposit the check. We also know that a young girl

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Speaker 1: from Archbishop ko was near the bank in the parking

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Speaker 1: lot with her mom and they talked to sister Kathy

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Speaker 1: in the parking lot, and the police have their interview,

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Speaker 1: So we don't know if that was as she was

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Speaker 1: leaving to return home or to go across the street

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Speaker 1: to the hat company, or if it was when she

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Speaker 1: was going into the bark. Podcaster also on the story,

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Speaker 1: the other monster rearing its head in the scenario is

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Speaker 1: a series of claims made which I believe. I'll just

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Speaker 1: put it out there. I believe these women regarding sex

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Speaker 1: abuse with art within Archbishop Kyo High School by one

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Speaker 1: of the fathers, Joseph Mascal. What do you know, Shane, Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I will say I also believe these women and since

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Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary aired, several more of them came forward.

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Speaker 1: So when when I look at this case, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a few different angles. It's almost like a few different fronts.

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Speaker 1: There's this abuse that's happening. I believe one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: that it happened and the church covered it up. When

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Speaker 1: I look at this case, I also see the similarities

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Speaker 1: between the Church of Baltimore and the mafia. And I

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Speaker 1: say that because the mafia, we know, has influence, they

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Speaker 1: have money, and people are scared of them, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like that's what these women were facing at that

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Speaker 1: time as well. Not only was it the mafia present,

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Speaker 1: but they also were afraid of the faith, the faith

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Speaker 1: element as well. You know, my family is very religious,

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Speaker 1: they're not cassolite. But I think if I were to

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Speaker 1: ever approach someone and say that I was being abused

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Speaker 1: by someone from the church, that puts a lot of

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Speaker 1: question in my family's faith. And unfortunately, that was what

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Speaker 1: these women were all facing at that time. Also, when

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at this case, just as an overhead, we

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Speaker 1: can it's it's easy to wonder if Kathy was robbed.

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Speaker 1: We see people being robbed all the time, and they don't.

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Speaker 1: They don't end up in the same fate that Kathy

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Speaker 1: ended up. So the question, the big question here is

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Speaker 1: are these events related? And I mean it's it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: All of these women that were abused, they will tell

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Speaker 1: you we think that this was related. Because of course,

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Speaker 1: prior to Sister Cathy being being murdered, she was saying

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Speaker 1: that she was going to confront these people who were

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Speaker 1: abusing And it's not that she was just going to

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Speaker 1: be confronting Father Matschol. She's confronting the this church that

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Speaker 1: that we know protected him and they are willing to

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Speaker 1: put theirselves and their money on the line to protect him.

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Speaker 1: So when when you come up with this scenario, what

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Speaker 1: are they willing to do to ensure that they not

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Speaker 1: only continue to protect this monster, but to protect themselves

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Speaker 1: because now they're they're they've dug a hole where they've

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Speaker 1: protected him for so many years. You know, anytime abuse

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Speaker 1: would come up against him, they would move him to

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Speaker 1: a different place, or they would send him to a

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Speaker 1: facility where they would try to help him or try

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Speaker 1: to get to try to stray him in a different direction.

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Speaker 1: But after so long, you know, if if if sister

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Speaker 1: Cathy would have came out at that time and made

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Speaker 1: a big noise against them. That's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: with a lot of money and a lot of influence

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Speaker 1: that would have gone down. And I don't see that

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Speaker 1: them being willing to let that happened to Shine Waters

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Speaker 1: and Jimma Hoskins. The big question is, while Sister Cathy,

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Speaker 1: we don't have evidence that she was molested by the

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Speaker 1: priest a Joseph Maskell, she seemingly knew all about rampant molestation,

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Speaker 1: sex molestation and the Catholic school Archbishop ko High School.

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Speaker 1: In fact, isn't it true Jemma Hoskins that she quote

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Speaker 1: ran interference for one of his molestation victims that didn't

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Speaker 1: want to see him or encounter him. What a horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible position to be in as a young girl being

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Speaker 1: raped and molested over and over and over at school

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Speaker 1: by the person that when you're in confession you're literally

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Speaker 1: speaking to God and you have to see the person

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Speaker 1: at school. And she's apparently one of the victims enlisted

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Speaker 1: Sister Kathy to keep her away from her molester. Correct,

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Speaker 1: so Kathy knew about everything? Was she about to blow

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Speaker 1: the lid? Jimma what can you tell me about these victims. Well,

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Speaker 1: I know first hand of three women who when they

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Speaker 1: were girls, confided in Kathy, and the first one I

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Speaker 1: know confided in December of sixty eight, the other two

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Speaker 1: in nineteen in the spring of nineteen sixty nine. Now,

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Speaker 1: Kathy left Archbishop ko to teach in a public school

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Speaker 1: and to live in an apartment in the spring in

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Speaker 1: June of sixty nine. So, on one hand, the girls

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Speaker 1: felt like she had abandoned them, But my gut tells

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Speaker 1: me that perhaps she and Russell we're afraid to stay there.

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Speaker 1: She told her family when they were very dismayed, that

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Speaker 1: she was leaving and thinking about leaving the convent. And

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Speaker 1: she told her family that it was more dangerous for

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Speaker 1: her to teach at Kio than it was to teach

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Speaker 1: in the city in Baltimore, which says a lot. Now,

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Speaker 1: we also are aware from more than one woman that

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Speaker 1: high ranking politicians and businessmen and police officers were involved

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Speaker 1: in the abuse. This was a prostitution ring. This wasn't

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Speaker 1: just a few girls from Kio. There were drugs involved,

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Speaker 1: there were sleazy motels involved, and everybody took care of

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Speaker 1: each other. If it goes all the way to city Hall,

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Speaker 1: and it did. Then everybody's taking care of each other.

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Speaker 1: The police are taking care of Moscow, the politicians are

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Speaker 1: taking care of the businessmen, and nobody talks. The police

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Speaker 1: are being serviced some right at the school, coming in

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Speaker 1: the fire door into father Maskell's office where drugged and

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Speaker 1: or hypnotized girls were there and money is exchanged. When

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Speaker 1: I think that I was in that building, it makes

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Speaker 1: me so angry that the only thing that divided us

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Speaker 1: from that hell was a one inch door. It's appalling

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Speaker 1: because we knew nothing about what was going on, and

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Speaker 1: we know that, I believe much of the many of

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Speaker 1: the administrators in the building knew what was happening. They

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Speaker 1: refused to talk to the police. The ones that are

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Speaker 1: still living, they've been told by their superiors not to talk.

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Speaker 1: And it's not right. Somebody has to blow the whistle.

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Speaker 1: This is not okay. And well, there's some credence, a

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Speaker 1: fair bit of credence to Jima's story because we know

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Speaker 1: that Father Joe Joseph Maskell was a chaplain and counselor

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Speaker 1: there at Archbishop Kio High School. He had a brother

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Speaker 1: on the police force, and there is no doubt that

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Speaker 1: sister Cathy knew about the abuse. Not only did he

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Speaker 1: have a brother on the police force, he was a

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Speaker 1: counselor or the chaplain to the force as well, so

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of connections between him and the police.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm Methodist, I'm not Catholic, but when I

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Speaker 1: hear about a Methodist minister who has done a horrible deed,

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Speaker 1: I am mortified. I think it's just horrible because that's

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Speaker 1: someone you look up to, that you trust. I consider

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Speaker 1: my minister, who we have male and female ministers at

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Speaker 1: our family church. I consider them not only friends, but

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Speaker 1: confidants and someone that I would go to to pray

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Speaker 1: for or with me in times of need. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to take in that someone who is a

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Speaker 1: person of God that we look to, that we look

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Speaker 1: up to, and I do. I look up to them,

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Speaker 1: even though I've heard countless stories about this priest did that,

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Speaker 1: this preacher did, that, this minister did, and most of

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00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 1: them aren't just true. To think that these young girls

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Speaker 1: were in this position to be raped over and over

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Speaker 1: and over, and Mascal was transferred from one place to

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Speaker 1: the next, and now you've got I dead. None Jimma Hoskins.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true You're a senior there at Kio High

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Speaker 1: School at the time, mister Kathy goes missing? Right? Correct? Yes? Correct?

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Speaker 1: What was it like when you discover she's not at

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Speaker 1: school today? Yeah? What happened at the time that she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: She was no longer teaching at Keo, that's from teaching

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Speaker 1: at Western High School in the city. But we were

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Speaker 1: told that she was missing that you know, there were

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Speaker 1: no cell phones and no Facebook, but our telephones, our landlines.

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Speaker 1: All the girls were all calling each other and all

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Speaker 1: community showed up at her apartment to help search. And

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Speaker 1: you've seen pictures of all the police car as well.

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Speaker 1: There were that many families looking as well. We were bewildered.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know that perhaps she just needed to get away,

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Speaker 1: Maybe she, you know, just needed some space. We had

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Speaker 1: no idea what happened to her. It didn't make sense. Well,

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Speaker 1: was she the kind of person that needed space? Well,

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00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 1: she kind of made her own space. But we knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about the abuse, so we had nothing to assume.

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Speaker 1: None of us knew anything about what was going on

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Speaker 1: at the school except the girls. It was happening too,

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Speaker 1: so I'm sure their mindset was very different. And I

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00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 1: know that I've heard one woman say that she had

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Speaker 1: confided in Kathy and has felt guilty that she might

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Speaker 1: have been responsible for Kathy's deaths. So none of us

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00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 1: knew what was going on. Well, listen to this. Listen

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Speaker 1: to this, Jemma with Me, Jimma Hoskins, Shane Waters, Karin Starkin,

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Speaker 1: John Lemley, Guys, listen to this. This is Donna van

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00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 1: den Bosch who suffered horrific abuse. She actually got a

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Speaker 1: meager settlement with the Catholic Church. She was attacked when

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Speaker 1: she was just fourteen years old by the same father Maskew.

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Speaker 1: She had been a bright, excited, happy freshman at the school.

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Speaker 1: And here she is on w JAZ describing how she

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Speaker 1: was given a drug laced soda while she was at

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Speaker 1: a Catholic youth picnic and then raped by father Mascow

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Speaker 1: and another priest. Listen, he was psychotic and here's this

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Speaker 1: parish priest that I've known since I was twelve, and

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00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: it's all so confusing, and this we go one for

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Speaker 1: the next three years. She opens up to w jay

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00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: Z telling how she's served a drug laced soda at

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Speaker 1: a Catholic youth picnic and then raped by Father Mascow

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00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: and another priest. I'm just woozy by fall. Damn. He

303
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: lays on top of me. He puts his legs in

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00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: between my legs to spare my legs part, and raps me.

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Speaker 1: She goes on to state that at school she would

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Speaker 1: hear her name call over the loudspeaker, telling her to

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00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: report to Father Mascal's office. She said that sometimes she

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00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: would go in and be raped, and sometimes he would

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00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: have a coke. She would be drugged most of the

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Speaker 1: time and would be threatened. Listen. Sometimes I would go

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Speaker 1: in and be raped. Sometimes he would have a coke.

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Speaker 1: I would be drugged most of the time. He would

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Speaker 1: keep guns in his top drawer. He would threaten me

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Speaker 1: with them. You stole your innocence, yes, you stole your education. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Did you steal your faith? Yes? Because maybe I could

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Speaker 1: have grown up Catholic and been happy, and I had

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Speaker 1: to teach my kids. You just don't trust people because

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Speaker 1: they have a collar own or something. You know, monsters

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00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: high You've seen a monster? Yes? Yeah. How do you

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00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: feel about the archdioseuse? Now this has to stop. People

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00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: have to take responsibility. I hope they find out the

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00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: terrible deeds that were done, and just to be served.

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Speaker 1: I also hope that other survivors here that you can survive,

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Speaker 1: the can move on, don't be fooled into silence. So

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Speaker 1: in my mind, John Limley, the fact that the church settled,

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00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't for a lot, but they did make a

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Speaker 1: forty thousand dollars settlement for all the rapes she endured

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Speaker 1: at the hands of father. And I say that with

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Speaker 1: them dirt in my mouth, Mascal, so to me, that

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Speaker 1: tells me her story is true, or why would they

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Speaker 1: have settled? And a lot of that didn't take place

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Speaker 1: until twenty or so years later, two decades after the abuse.

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Speaker 1: I think it would be interesting to go back to

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Speaker 1: the the timeline of that early November evening when Sister

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00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: Cathy disappeared to bring a little bit more forward about

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00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: the case. Now, a few hours went by after sister

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00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: Cathy told Sister Russell that she was going to cash

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Speaker 1: her paycheck, go to the bakery, maybe do a little shopping.

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00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: It's eleven o'clock. A good number of hours have gone by,

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00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: and so sister Russell becomes worried. So she calls two

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00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: of their priest friends who drive over to the apartment.

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00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: They eventually decide to call the police, and then they wait,

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Speaker 1: and they wait for hours. In fact, at one point

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00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: they even celebrate mass at the kitchen or dining room table,

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00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: just hoping against hope that that sister Cathy just shows up.

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Speaker 1: Around four forty the next morning, it's still very dark,

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00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: Sister Cathy's brand new Greenford Maverick is found with mud

348
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: on it, unlocked, illegally parked just diagonally across from her apartment.

349
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: And this is interesting. The back end of the vehicle

350
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: is actually in the road, and Sister Cathy had a

351
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: designated parking spot behind the apartment building, so she certainly

352
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: would not have parked there. It's it's as if someone

353
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: wanted that vehicle found, but there was no sign of

354
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: the nun anywhere. Well, I can tell you this, John Emily.

355
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: She did not part that car that way. No, not

356
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Speaker 1: at all. And it was several weeks. It was months

357
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Speaker 1: later before, on a cold, cold January day, sister Cathy's

358
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: body is found by a hunter and his son. It

359
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: was found in an informal landfill. You know, it was

360
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: a landfill that was not designated as such. It's just

361
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: where people went to dump stuff. It was on Monumental Road,

362
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: in a remote area of a good distance away from

363
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: Cathey's apartment, And after an autopsy was performed, it was

364
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: revealed that sister Cathy died from an interest cerebral hemorrhage

365
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: after a fracture to her skull that was inflicted by

366
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: a blow to her left temple. They think by a

367
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: blunt instrument. When sister Cathy was reported that night, dozens

368
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: of cops a half a dozen dog teams searched and

369
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: searched a wide swath of Baltimore in that neighborhood looking

370
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: for clues, headlines in the papers or city police failed

371
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: to find missing none, And as John Limley is reporting,

372
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: the next time she was seen, it was a horrifying sight.

373
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace there she was, her face

374
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: covered in maggots, the body of Sister Cathy frozen out

375
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: in a field. When I look at her in her

376
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: habit and then in her street clothes, she just looks

377
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: so alive and so happy and so eager to teach.

378
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: But it all turned into a horrific scene when she

379
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: was found. Gemma, what can you tell me about another

380
00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: young girl who claims that she was taken by father

381
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: Mescal to see as a threat sister Cathy's body as

382
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: it lie in this field. Yes, I can clarify something.

383
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: When Cathy's body was found, there was not evidence of

384
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: maggots on her face. This has been a real issue

385
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: of what actually happened because it was January. This is horrendous.

386
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: But I've done research on the life cycle of maggots,

387
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 1: and I've worked with the people that run the Body Farm,

388
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: which is a research place for the decomposition, and what

389
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: I learned was that because it was very warm after

390
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: Kathy disappeared, when Jeanne was taken to see her in November,

391
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: they're wren in live maggots on her face and on

392
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: her body. Now, in January, there was no evidence of that.

393
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: In reading the autopsy, which I have a copy of,

394
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: and by the way, Warner's fits and we all know

395
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: who Warner s Fitz is, he explains that there were

396
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: maggots in her trachea and her esophagus. So that what

397
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: happens when the weather gets cold is that live maggots

398
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: burrowed deeper to where it's warm, and I have to

399
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: try and stay objective about this because it's very emotional

400
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: for me to think that this happened to the person

401
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: who was my mentor and the reason I became a teacher,

402
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: because to think of her in this setting is just

403
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: really difficult for me. But the maggots actually were not

404
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: on her face. They were inside her body, and that

405
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: showed up in the autopsy. You know, I find that

406
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: really interesting, jem and what you're saying. But well, how

407
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: did the girl get out there and why did she

408
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: report the dead body? Right? Well, she was taken by Maskle,

409
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: and this was after she had been a by him

410
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: for quite a while. He told her that he knew

411
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: where Kathy was. Maskell took her to see Kathy's body,

412
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: and at that time, because it was just a few

413
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: weeks after her death, after her disappearance, there were live

414
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: maggots on her face. So Jane is correct in saying

415
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: that when Cathy's body was found in January, there was

416
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: no evidence of maggots because it was cold and they

417
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: burrowed deep into organs to get warm. Why do you

418
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: believe she didn't come forward, Jemma Hoskins, Well, she was

419
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: threatened with her life, Maskell said to her you see

420
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 1: what happens when you say bad things about people, and

421
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: she was terrified. So, Jean is the connection between the

422
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: abuse and the murder. She's credible. I believe her. And

423
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: when he took her there, it was to ensure her

424
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: silence because she knew then that he had been responsible

425
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: in some way for Kathy's death, for her murder, and

426
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: that was early in his abuse career. So to every

427
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: single person who had been abused by him, and we

428
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: know now that that number is over a hundred, and

429
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: to any nun at that school who knew about the abuse,

430
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: everybody closed their mouth. They were terrified because they knew

431
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: they could be next. And I always believe that that

432
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: is why Russell did not call the police, because she

433
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: knew the police were involved. I think that's why she

434
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: called Kathy's friend, Jerry Coove and the other the other

435
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: brother who was a friend, because she didn't know who

436
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: to turn to. I think it almost proves that the

437
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: police were involved because Russell kept silent and didn't call

438
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: the police. But I believe that Jean is very credible.

439
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: There's no way that she could have known that those

440
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: live markets were there unless she saw them. Now here's

441
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: another twist, another wrinkle. The body of Maskell, who later

442
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: died was never going to jail, was exhumed. His DNA

443
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: did not match crime scene DNA. That means nothing to me,

444
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: John Limley. His DNA did not match DNA at the scene.

445
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: But for all I know, the DNA at the scene

446
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: is DNA in the car. It could be on the car,

447
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: it could be anything. It could be on the paper bag.

448
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: That does not mean anything to me. Limley. Where did

449
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: the DNA come from? There? Talking about the DNA was

450
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: found at the scene. That's been under wraps a little

451
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: bit because even scene, the car, the apartment, the bank,

452
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: the store, the bakery, bag, the body, what what what?

453
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: What scene? There's so there's a primaria secondary in a

454
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: tertiary c I'm seen here right, this was this was

455
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: found connected with the vehicle and surrounding Kathy's body there

456
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: where they found her on that January morning. Are you

457
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: sure that's where the DNA came from? Jimma, go ahead,

458
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: because I'm not clear either. Where did the DNA come from? Okay,

459
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: then came from a cigarette butt? All right? It was

460
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: found at the crime scene. But at this point the

461
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: police have asked me not to share exactly where at

462
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: the crime scene. That's all I can say. But it

463
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: was at the crime scene where her body was found.

464
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 1: But I can't tell you specifically where because I've been

465
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: asked not to. So it was where her body was.

466
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: And still, Jimma, no, We've got to keep the integrity

467
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: of the investigation exactly. Jimma, here's the thing. It still

468
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: means nothing to me because I don't know how that

469
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: cigarette butt got there. It may or may not be connected.

470
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: You just can't tell me that he was not involved

471
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: in some way. I will never tell you that because

472
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: I believe he choreographed the whole thing. Whether he was

473
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: there or not, we don't know. Yeah, I read between

474
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: the lines. The cigarette but was at the crime scene,

475
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: and my opinion is that it may have been a decoy, okay,

476
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: because it hasn't matched anybody, and so perhaps you know,

477
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: these guys were I think they were in cahoots. They

478
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: weren't stupid. Mascoll was a monster, genius, and if he

479
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: involved thugs, anybody could have thrown a cigarette button there

480
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: from any place and everybody was going in the wrong direction.

481
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: Jim let me ask you a question, what was his personality.

482
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: Was he charismatic? Was he attractive? I mean, I've looked

483
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: at him. He's not attractive to me, But why were

484
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: people drawn to him? Okay, mascoll was charismatic in he

485
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: was very brilliant. He was very smooth, the smooth talker.

486
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: To me, he was never physically attractive. People say, you

487
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: know who would play him in a in a movie,

488
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: and I can't think of any He's not George Clooney,

489
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: but very insidious, always watching. It's my understanding that he

490
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: would consult with the nurse, the counselor, and the dean

491
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: each week about what girls were having problems mental, physical, school, emotional,

492
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: and that would be his shopping list. I hate to

493
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: say it that way, but that's how he prayed on

494
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: his victims. Girls who were having issues, girls who were upset,

495
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: girls who were, you know, experimenting with drugs or were

496
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: having problems at home. He was looking for anybody that

497
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: he could manipulate. And I'm not saying that all the

498
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: victims were in that situation, but he was drawn to

499
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: certain types of girls that he knew he would be

500
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: able to manipulate. He would say mass He did not

501
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: live at art Ko. He would come to say Mass

502
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: and he was chaplain. The other priest that was there

503
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: was the head of religious studies, and that was Neil Magnus.

504
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: He also was abusive. He is actually the first person

505
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: that some of the girls interacted with in confession, and

506
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: then he asked them to come to his office. So

507
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: he and Maskell would abuse girls together. A lot of

508
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: people knew what was going on, and nobody was talking

509
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: about it. And I believe Sister Kathy and Sister Russell

510
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: were the only two that we're willing to do anything.

511
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: Jimma Hoskins final thought to me, I'm not religious, but

512
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: I do have faith and do believe in my higher power.

513
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: But to me, if evil walks the earth, it would

514
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: have been him, pure evil, because he could hide behind

515
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: a presvestments and he could come across as being charming smart.

516
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: You know. His professor at at Hopkins said he was

517
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: one of the smartest people she ever met, and he

518
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: fooled her because they became friends and it wasn't until

519
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: the end of his life that she realized what he

520
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: was doing. So it's appalling because you know, people believe

521
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: while you do what the priest says, and girls were

522
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: afraid to tell and it's a mess. It's a mess.

523
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: I do believe it will be solved. I think the

524
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: police it boils down to, well, you're you're an attorney.

525
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: It's going to be either DNA, a confession, or an

526
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: eye witness, and all three of those are possible right now.

527
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: And the police are using new technology. They're doing further

528
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: testing with DNA on the evidence that was found at

529
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 1: the scene, and I believe it'll be solved and probably

530
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: in the not too distant future. The case of the

531
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: abduction and murderer of sister Kathy is still open, still unresolved.

532
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story is signing off Goodbye Friend,