Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
Speaker 1: or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
Speaker 1: episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
Speaker 1: podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
Speaker 1: not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. When I decided to go
Speaker 1: no contact is because we met up after the breakup
Speaker 1: and we had gone out to eat and he embarrassed
Speaker 1: me in front of a bakery. A young lady mentioned
Speaker 1: that we looked que and she wanted to call her
Speaker 1: husband because we were such a vibe, and he announced
Speaker 1: the bakery that she just broke up with me, And
Speaker 1: that's when I was like, you're really unpredictable right now,
Speaker 1: and you are just grasping like this is this is wild,
Speaker 1: Like you're not telling them why we broke up, you know,
Speaker 1: you're telling a bunch of random people. I'm like, that
Speaker 1: was embarrassing. He laughed in my face when I told
Speaker 1: him it was embarrassing. When we think about narcissistic relationships,
Speaker 1: we think about fast, exciting love bombing, and the standard
Speaker 1: story is that you get so dazzled by the excitement
Speaker 1: that you missed the red flags. But what if you
Speaker 1: start with a friendship for years. Many people don't think
Speaker 1: they could get into a toxic relationship with someone who
Speaker 1: has been a long term friend because they believed they
Speaker 1: would have seen all of the red flags. Not so fast. Today,
Speaker 1: we are going to hear the story of Shala, whose
Speaker 1: long long friendship turned into a less long relationship, a
Speaker 1: friendship that went from I want to see you all
Speaker 1: the time, come over any time, to a relationship where
Speaker 1: the talk was I need my space. Maybe the things
Speaker 1: that look like quirks in a friendship become downright toxic
Speaker 1: in a relationship, whatever it is. She has a story
Speaker 1: of doing the right things, being friends, setting boundaries, but
Speaker 1: still getting to a very confusing, hurtful, and gaslighted relationship.
Speaker 1: Let's hear Shalla's story. Chola, it is such a pleasure
Speaker 1: to see you again and to have you on where
Speaker 1: I'd like to begin with you is. I'd like to
Speaker 1: have you tell us the story of your relationship with
Speaker 1: your now ex boyfriend, because it started as a friendship first,
Speaker 1: So could you take us to the very beginning when
Speaker 1: you literally first met him and sort of lay out
Speaker 1: the entire story of the relationship, even from back then. Yes,
Speaker 1: men of a friends party, it did appear though he
Speaker 1: probably was interested in me, but you know, I wasn't
Speaker 1: really too concerned with that. We became friends on social media,
Speaker 1: so you know, started chatting via Facebook, and then he
Speaker 1: invited me to his friends giving, which I thought was
Speaker 1: a kind gesture, Like I said, we have mutual friends,
Speaker 1: and because I was newly back home, it just made
Speaker 1: me feel like, Okay, I'm becoming a part of the
Speaker 1: community again. And went to the friends giving, and then
Speaker 1: that's how the friendship progressed. So part of the friendship,
Speaker 1: we went out to the movies at one point. Admittedly
Speaker 1: I did suspect that there was some interest, but there
Speaker 1: was never any stated interest. We hung out with a
Speaker 1: couple of friends of mine, and I did that to
Speaker 1: vet him, just to see if I would be interested
Speaker 1: in going that route, and essentially decided not to go
Speaker 1: that route. Whether he was interested or not, just because
Speaker 1: I had heard some stories about his dating life, not
Speaker 1: too much, but he seemed to be like obsessed with love,
Speaker 1: and so I had a concern that I was going
Speaker 1: to be like plugged into this love story that he
Speaker 1: has in his mind. So he considers himself a love enthusiast.
Speaker 1: Then pandemic hit. So the majority of our friendship was virtual,
Speaker 1: whether that's just chatting via social media, texting when people
Speaker 1: were loud outside, a little bit more, we hung out,
Speaker 1: went for walks in the park, that sort of a thing.
Speaker 1: He definitely would send flirtatious messages every now and again.
Speaker 1: I didn't really take them seriously. Definitely like a lot
Speaker 1: of commenting on my post. And I remember there was
Speaker 1: an instance where there was a cute kid on a
Speaker 1: the grand post and he sent it to me and
Speaker 1: he's like our kid. So looking back my own self reflection,
Speaker 1: I'm like, we're y'all really friends or we're Indian. Just
Speaker 1: because you put him in the friend zone doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you were in a like a friendship, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. He clearly had other intentions for you, and
Speaker 1: just because you put him in that box doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean that he's put you in that box. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until one I dated a young man from l A
Speaker 1: for a few months that didn't work out. And around
Speaker 1: the time of that breakup, maybe like a month or
Speaker 1: two after that's when are hanging out started rubbing up.
Speaker 1: And then around September was when things started to gravitate
Speaker 1: towards a more romantic side. Then I started to reconsider. Okay,
Speaker 1: you've known him for a couple of years. You do
Speaker 1: see that he's like consistently sweet. It is clear that
Speaker 1: he's interested in you, even if he hasn't particularly said hey,
Speaker 1: let's date. Although I will say around the end of
Speaker 1: that summer he did see me on a dating app
Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, we should get off this
Speaker 1: app and just date. So that was like his first
Speaker 1: time actually saying like I want to date you. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of when I started considering it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: got a lot of questions storry without Halloween. Okay, so
Speaker 1: two thousand, nineteen Halloween, you meet him. Okay, A couple
Speaker 1: of things jumped out at me that are so interesting.
Speaker 1: It's not like you've just been traveling. You weren't looking
Speaker 1: to meet someone. Now, this was a friend you met
Speaker 1: a person, they seem cool, you think let's hang out.
Speaker 1: He was definitely giving you positive attention and vibes in
Speaker 1: a way that might have been in a gray area.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you this because two years is a
Speaker 1: long time to be friends with someone. In that two years,
Speaker 1: was he dating anyone? Or was he in a relationship? Actually,
Speaker 1: when we started going towards the direction of romance, he was,
Speaker 1: in his words, casually dating a young woman. He had
Speaker 1: been seeing her for a few months, but some of
Speaker 1: the problems in that relationship were around love languages. And
Speaker 1: his primary love languages are physical touch and words of affirmation,
Speaker 1: and she doesn't do physical as touch at all. I
Speaker 1: know the love language framework is very popular. I believe
Speaker 1: that I, personally may be an act of service gal
Speaker 1: love bombing for me consists of someone bringing in the
Speaker 1: trash cans. But that said, the love language framework can
Speaker 1: also get a little tricky with someone who has a
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality style. They may need lots of validation and
Speaker 1: write that off to my love language is words of affirmation.
Speaker 1: Be wary when someone starts laying out their love languages
Speaker 1: as a rationale for demands that may seem unreasonable and
Speaker 1: one sided. She even in his words, I thought she
Speaker 1: might be a sexual. So him exploring that relationship again
Speaker 1: I always thought was quite odd, considering that these are
Speaker 1: things that are really important to you in a relationship
Speaker 1: and you're not You didn't get it in the first round.
Speaker 1: Why are you back in that relationship? Can I ask you?
Speaker 1: This is that he told you that she said that
Speaker 1: she might be a sexual. It's not like you heard
Speaker 1: that from her. Did not hear that from her? I
Speaker 1: didn't know her at all. Actually, he did not break
Speaker 1: things off with her until November, and I remember thinking
Speaker 1: to myself, you should probably take some time before you
Speaker 1: move into your next thing. But by that point I
Speaker 1: think I was emotionally invested. But there were some other
Speaker 1: things that he said to me. He compared me to
Speaker 1: her a lot of times. So he would say, I
Speaker 1: love that we can have vulnerable conversation nations, we can
Speaker 1: talk about anything. Essentially, he was only happy when he
Speaker 1: was with me, and he's miserable with this young lady
Speaker 1: that he he went back to. He's miserable. He would
Speaker 1: feel bad ending it because then he would look like
Speaker 1: a bad guy because he was the one who re
Speaker 1: established a relationship, so he's willing to suffer in order
Speaker 1: to make sure that no one else gets hurt. That
Speaker 1: was kind of like his thing. I'm willing to forfeit
Speaker 1: my happiness for other people's happiness. It's funny, it's always
Speaker 1: so easy to analyze these stories backwards. Charlote dis dude
Speaker 1: is trying to fit himself for stained Glass. I'm such
Speaker 1: a good guy that I don't want to let someone down,
Speaker 1: so I'm staying with this person. It's all a little
Speaker 1: bit Marjorie, you know, but to me, because sadly I
Speaker 1: live in the dark shadows of narcissistic relationship. Something that's
Speaker 1: happening here in your story, it's so interesting to me.
Speaker 1: Is this what might call early triangular aition? What he
Speaker 1: was doing. She doesn't do this, but you do this.
Speaker 1: She didn't do that. You do this, she says, she's
Speaker 1: a sexual you're so warm, whatever it. Maybe you're vulnerable,
Speaker 1: she's not. That triangulation is almost like an interesting trademark
Speaker 1: of narcissistic relationships because for a lot of us, for
Speaker 1: a lot of us, even historically in our lives. Let's
Speaker 1: say a person grew up in a household where the
Speaker 1: parent was always pitting the siblings against each other. You
Speaker 1: wanted to be the one who came out on top.
Speaker 1: That idea of living in triangles is often what makes
Speaker 1: us vulnerable, But there is something in us to be chosen.
Speaker 1: We want to be the one who's chosen. And what
Speaker 1: these folks are able to do so expertly is set
Speaker 1: this tone of I'm so lucky I met you. This
Speaker 1: is very different than what I'm in and you can
Speaker 1: see that even in other circumstances, like if somebody is
Speaker 1: in a marriage, they'll say, my wife is not affectionate,
Speaker 1: my husband doesn't talk to me, we never have sex.
Speaker 1: Da da da da. What a blessing that I've met you.
Speaker 1: But I'm such a good person I can't imagine hurting them.
Speaker 1: The setup is actually quite machiavellian, if you want to
Speaker 1: view it that way, and it is a way for
Speaker 1: us to feel like we are more special than someone.
Speaker 1: It's a profound dynamic that at the time is so
Speaker 1: confusing until that's why we do this podcast. Can tell
Speaker 1: anyone as soon as you get compared to someone else,
Speaker 1: the first thing that should be going through your head
Speaker 1: is triangulation. Because you're you and you're not that person,
Speaker 1: and if they're comparing you to that person, there's something
Speaker 1: that still hasn't been fully worked through in the way
Speaker 1: he was of Another question for you, had there not
Speaker 1: been a pandemic in your case, how do you think
Speaker 1: that amount of time where you couldn't have been in
Speaker 1: the same place as him and how to have had
Speaker 1: how to be virtual? Do you think you missed anything
Speaker 1: in him because it was more virtual than you spending
Speaker 1: a lot more time in person. I definitely think so.
Speaker 1: I feel as though, if not to compare, and when
Speaker 1: I think about the friendships that I generally do have
Speaker 1: the depth of friendships that I have, if I'm honest
Speaker 1: with myself, like the friendship wasn't really as deep. We
Speaker 1: talked virtually, so we're friends. But I wonder if I
Speaker 1: was too quick to give him that title, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? But yes, I would say if
Speaker 1: I had spent more time around him, I might have
Speaker 1: seen more signs. I might have had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: see him in relationships throughout that time. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It could have also sped things up. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: one of the challenges is the longer the friendship and
Speaker 1: especially if the friendship is something you enjoy, the more
Speaker 1: likely that once the relationship begins, a person starts wondering,
Speaker 1: it's got to be me because we were friends for
Speaker 1: such a long time. Yeah, So I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the if you will risks of a long term friendship,
Speaker 1: if you think we've been friends for a long time.
Speaker 1: So the tendency is to put on ourselves. And then
Speaker 1: you said something else really interesting to me. I'd never
Speaker 1: heard anyone say something like this, so that's why I
Speaker 1: jumped out at me. You called him a love enthusiast,
Speaker 1: which I'm telling you every single red flag alarmy me
Speaker 1: right now. It looks like a Christmas tree. I was like,
Speaker 1: what love enthusiast run away? So that was fascinating to
Speaker 1: me for many reasons. First of all, what even because
Speaker 1: to me love enthusiast? This is how I read it, Okay,
Speaker 1: and you can tell me because you saw the posts
Speaker 1: and the how he talked about it was he almost
Speaker 1: just wanted like these snazzy, dopamine feel good parts of love,
Speaker 1: because love is also the kind of who picks up
Speaker 1: the gallon of milk part of love. But I think
Speaker 1: that idea of being a love enthusiast. Really almost felt
Speaker 1: like he was always on this quest for that brand
Speaker 1: new feeling of meeting someone and that whole early phase
Speaker 1: of a relationship. And the other reason that's so interesting
Speaker 1: to me is that's why this two year friendship you're in,
Speaker 1: if somebody's a love enthusiast, you would think that they'd
Speaker 1: always need to be in a relationship, were always on
Speaker 1: the quest for a relationship, So it would feel like
Speaker 1: that questing would always be a part of somebody who
Speaker 1: is a love enthusiast. Did that ever give you concern,
Speaker 1: even that title of love enthusiasts? It did. Yeah. When
Speaker 1: I met him in twenty nineteen, that was one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I brushed off the possibility of dating him.
Speaker 1: I was like, it's just I don't I've never seen
Speaker 1: a guy who post this much about love and like
Speaker 1: what he wants and it would be like means about
Speaker 1: people cuddling, and it's like, oh, I just want this,
Speaker 1: And I know that he's there's nothing wrong with being
Speaker 1: on apps, but I definitely know he was constantly on
Speaker 1: that search to find the one, if you will. He's
Speaker 1: also into film and loves rom coms, and interestingly enough.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize until we dated. A lot of his
Speaker 1: favorite ron coms are of men who are like really terrible,
Speaker 1: like Womanizer's just really mean, and then they meet some
Speaker 1: woman and that woman pushes them away like for a while,
Speaker 1: and then they ultimately fall in love and everything's happy.
Speaker 1: And his story about us when we started dating, he
Speaker 1: would always tell people that I curved him for two years,
Speaker 1: which basically means I brushed him off for two years
Speaker 1: even though he was trying to date me, but he
Speaker 1: never fully stated intentioned. But that was like his story
Speaker 1: of how we started dating, and it was cost for
Speaker 1: concern before we started dating as well. But I think
Speaker 1: at that point, like I recognize my vulnerabilities at the
Speaker 1: beginning of that relationship, having just been essentially rejected by
Speaker 1: another guy and being touched your pride and have it
Speaker 1: dated and forever, And here's this person who clearly is
Speaker 1: into me and knows me, and I feel safe with them.
Speaker 1: They love everything about me, even the things that I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily love about myself or I'm learning to love
Speaker 1: about myself. So yeah, definitely saw some things, but just
Speaker 1: kept pushating because like, this is my friend, and I
Speaker 1: also would like to be loved, So I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you also brought that up. That one to punch of
Speaker 1: being rejected to being desired is such a powerful transfer
Speaker 1: a moment, right because you're hurt from something and whatever.
Speaker 1: That prior break up looks like it doesn't feel good
Speaker 1: if someone else initiated it, whatever the reasons, where even
Speaker 1: if it wasn't a good relationship for you, there is
Speaker 1: no band aid. There is no warm bath in the
Speaker 1: world that feels better than going from being rejected to
Speaker 1: being desired. It is also the single most dangerous time
Speaker 1: because it's exactly when somebody who's an operator can really
Speaker 1: get in there. And you're saying you're vulnerable, I would
Speaker 1: argue that you're human. I think every single one of
Speaker 1: us would feel that. Oh I feel like I'm living
Speaker 1: in a dark, cold room and this person is shining
Speaker 1: the sun on me. Why wouldn't somebody turn to that?
Speaker 1: And your comment about the rom coms about the bad
Speaker 1: guy gone good and somebody who almost as hard to
Speaker 1: get and they get them, girl, those films should have
Speaker 1: some sort of warning label on them. So that's this
Speaker 1: film runs the risk of you falling for love bombing
Speaker 1: and being played by a narcissism like a New rating
Speaker 1: system rated PG thirteen and this film may put you
Speaker 1: at risk for a narcissistic relationship. We will be right
Speaker 1: back with this conversation with Shalla talk about the transition
Speaker 1: of going from friendship to romantic relationship. I think this
Speaker 1: is a really important thing for listeners to understand because
Speaker 1: what we always think of a narcissistic relationship is you
Speaker 1: meet some one dating app, bar whatever, love bomb, and
Speaker 1: you're off to the racist. What we don't hear is
Speaker 1: much is a person who was friends with someone for
Speaker 1: a long time then they get into a romantic relationship,
Speaker 1: because that's usually not how this goes with somebody with
Speaker 1: this kind of personality, but it did in your case,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's what's unique about your story.
Speaker 1: So two years friends, even though he was a love
Speaker 1: enthusiast and whatever other strange things. I mean, the love enthusiast,
Speaker 1: the triangulation, whatever that was. He also has a persona
Speaker 1: name that he created in college. Sona name. Yeah, here's that.
Speaker 1: I am kind of an old lady, so I don't
Speaker 1: even know what a persona name is. I suppose if
Speaker 1: I had one, it would be doctor disorganized. But that's
Speaker 1: the best thing I could come up with. But what
Speaker 1: is that about? Talk to me about this persona name
Speaker 1: for a minute. So essentially, he would call this name
Speaker 1: if he ever had to deal with heart emotions. So
Speaker 1: let's say someone passed away or whatever. If he's feeling sad,
Speaker 1: or if he's struggling with something emotionally, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I'll be fine, I'm such and such interesting now, or
Speaker 1: like it's okay, I'm such and such, or like if
Speaker 1: he's done something really sweet for me. I like snacks.
Speaker 1: I like sugar. He bought like this packet of Hi
Speaker 1: jew and I had it delivered to his house when
Speaker 1: he knew I would be there. Now that I look back,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'm so sleep. You didn't have
Speaker 1: to do that. The same vibe. I'm like, why did
Speaker 1: you do that? He's like, because I'm such and such,
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Yeah, So like if he does anything romantic,
Speaker 1: or if he wants to avoid a negative emotion, then
Speaker 1: he refers to this person that he's created for himself.
Speaker 1: I guess that's really interesting. It's almost like a mild
Speaker 1: form of as association, or it's definitely compartmentalization. Yes, he
Speaker 1: actually would about his ability to compartmentalize and even have
Speaker 1: a name like It's It's almost like, this is the part.
Speaker 1: This is where I'm parking all my emotions. It's fascinating too,
Speaker 1: because even that idea of I'm going to give you
Speaker 1: a gift things like that, that's not even that vulnerable.
Speaker 1: But it is vulnerable, right because somebody can reject your gift.
Speaker 1: So it's any place where he could potentially be brought down.
Speaker 1: He'd use that persona to block himself off. That's really
Speaker 1: really interesting. So there were these little bits okay, the persona,
Speaker 1: the bits of triangulation, the love enthusiast stuff. I gotta say, though, Shalla,
Speaker 1: Like I said, anyone can sit here after the fact
Speaker 1: and do the postmortem and think about, Okay, this is
Speaker 1: what this is in real time. Some of that almost
Speaker 1: feels quirky, silly, and no one including myself, would say
Speaker 1: run away, run away, And especially if it's your friend.
Speaker 1: In a way, especially in a friend you definitely don't
Speaker 1: have the same kind of radar up right, But two
Speaker 1: years into a friendship is almost its own form of
Speaker 1: indoctrination because you hold space for the quirks, because that's
Speaker 1: what they're about, the persona, the love enthusiast stuff, all
Speaker 1: of that. And now you're two years in, now you're
Speaker 1: sliding into a romantic relationship. It sounds like you did
Speaker 1: have some healthy boundaries that you were maintaining with him.
Speaker 1: Would you say that you started this relationship with a
Speaker 1: decent sense of healthy boundaries. Yeah, I'd say so, and
Speaker 1: I do remember I did have apprehensions about starting it,
Speaker 1: but it ultimately came down to this concept of, well,
Speaker 1: you feel safe around him, and for me, safety is
Speaker 1: so major feeling safe around people. It doesn't come easily.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you what it was about him that
Speaker 1: left you feeling safe? I felt like he accepted everything
Speaker 1: about me, some of the things that I feel a
Speaker 1: little bit more self conscious about. So you know, the
Speaker 1: the A D H D, the like not necessarily being
Speaker 1: one hundred pride sent sure about what I want to
Speaker 1: do with my life. For you know, when I first
Speaker 1: moved back to the area, like staying, I was staying
Speaker 1: with family or so I kind of felt like even
Speaker 1: with the guy dated prior to him, like I always
Speaker 1: had this mentality that I'm not a real adult. So
Speaker 1: I think with him, I just felt like I was
Speaker 1: accepted as I was, Like I didn't have to be
Speaker 1: a certain type of girl. I didn't have to be
Speaker 1: super girly or we're makeup all the time, or like
Speaker 1: be dressed to the nines. I could be silly. I
Speaker 1: could essentially just be me and that was accepted by him,
Speaker 1: and he would even say things like I love how
Speaker 1: deeply you feel things, you know. So I just I
Speaker 1: felt celebrated around on a holistic level and I didn't
Speaker 1: feel like I had to be a certain way to
Speaker 1: be accepted by him. And it's interesting I think that
Speaker 1: that's an important thing almost for anyone listening to this
Speaker 1: to reflect on, is safety means so many different things
Speaker 1: to so many people. On what I'm hearing from you,
Speaker 1: is safety meant acceptance of of who you are, all
Speaker 1: of it. Because for other people, safety means different things.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's such an interesting thing to
Speaker 1: reflect on, because when we do feel safe, it's a
Speaker 1: wonderful feeling, but it also means some of our radar
Speaker 1: comes down a little bit too. And again, with a
Speaker 1: two year friendship with friends, I have to say, the
Speaker 1: net of acceptance is often a lot wider than it
Speaker 1: isn't in a new intimate relationship, like little things like
Speaker 1: how someone choose we may not notice that, and a
Speaker 1: friend like whatever, it's my friend, but in a relationship
Speaker 1: like I can't do this. And so I think that
Speaker 1: you had this interesting opportunity of the much more flexible
Speaker 1: acceptance that comes from a friendship did create the sense
Speaker 1: of safety. Okay, so now where it September, You're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling it. You're feeling it. There's been this sort
Speaker 1: of a bit of a sizzle between us for a
Speaker 1: few years. But in those two years you didn't have sex,
Speaker 1: none of that. It wasn't like you kind of had
Speaker 1: those lapses. It was two years of a straight, non
Speaker 1: sexual friendship. September, you know, you say okay, let's do it,
Speaker 1: and so you do it. What was the relationship? Like
Speaker 1: I kind of at that point, I thought, okay, if
Speaker 1: we're doing this, we're doing this, like we're all in.
Speaker 1: And then we started going on date dates. So before
Speaker 1: it was all just kind of like hanging out at
Speaker 1: his house, and then we started going on actual dates,
Speaker 1: and there were moments where it just kind of felt
Speaker 1: like like I was not a burden, but like that
Speaker 1: I was clingy or needy, like if I wanted to
Speaker 1: hang out with him. He wouldn't outright say like you
Speaker 1: want to hang out too much, but he would say
Speaker 1: things like I never get work done when you're here.
Speaker 1: You know, I struggle with boundaries, and you have to
Speaker 1: help me with my boundaries. So like there be times
Speaker 1: I'd be over his house hanging out and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like, oh, I still need to get work.
Speaker 1: It'll be like eleven o'clock and he's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: still need to do this work. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: why didn't she say anything. He's like, well, you know
Speaker 1: I'm terrible with boundaries. You have to help me with
Speaker 1: my boundaries. And I'm like, no, they're your boundaries, Like
Speaker 1: I can't enforce your boundaries, like I have to worry
Speaker 1: about my own. Like I can encourage you, but I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be the one to set your boundaries
Speaker 1: for you. Or he would say things like you seem
Speaker 1: to be okay with like wanting to be around people
Speaker 1: all the time, but I need a lone time. But
Speaker 1: I would tell him like I don't want to be
Speaker 1: like a burden, Like if I'm doing too much, then
Speaker 1: let me go or whatever. I remember a conversation where
Speaker 1: he essentially was telling me that I seemed to need
Speaker 1: to be around people I know, like I'm not that
Speaker 1: social to be Like I work, and then I spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time alone and when I want to
Speaker 1: hang out with you, I make sure my stuff is
Speaker 1: done and then I hang out with you. And to him,
Speaker 1: it was like, you're always out and about. You seem
Speaker 1: to not need alone time, but I need alone time.
Speaker 1: So it became this I've always wanted to be with you,
Speaker 1: and then it became like you want too much time.
Speaker 1: And then when I expressed my concern about that kind
Speaker 1: of sentiment and feeling like I was being a burden,
Speaker 1: he was like, well, but no, because whenever you leave
Speaker 1: then I miss you and I'm like, oh, I wish
Speaker 1: she was here. There was so much push and pull
Speaker 1: this style. It's quite fascinating. You're here too much, You're
Speaker 1: up and my grill, you're getting in the way of
Speaker 1: me doing stuff. You're like, okay, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be written some let me pull back. Oh no, I
Speaker 1: miss you so much when you're gone. That actually has
Speaker 1: a name. It's called an approach avoidance style, all right,
Speaker 1: So it's actually a ing and it is reflective us
Speaker 1: somewhat avoidant or even anxious attachment style, which is something
Speaker 1: we can see in people with narcissistic personalities. And it
Speaker 1: goes to this really interesting point. For narcissistic people, they
Speaker 1: see people as objects, right, and just like there's a
Speaker 1: thing in your house you may not need until you
Speaker 1: need it, and then you want it, and then you
Speaker 1: put it away until you want it again. I don't
Speaker 1: know that any of us would be particularly thrilled if
Speaker 1: our coffee maker waddled up to us at six o'clock
Speaker 1: in the evening and said, hey, why aren't you talking
Speaker 1: to me? I'd be like, you're my coffee maker, Like,
Speaker 1: learn your place, go back on the counter, because it's
Speaker 1: our coffee machine. It's a machine, not a person. But
Speaker 1: for a narcissistic person, they actually can almost view a
Speaker 1: person as I don't want you around now, so disappear,
Speaker 1: and then what I want you around, I want you
Speaker 1: to reappear. And as a result, for a person in
Speaker 1: a relationship like this, there's this real bird and of
Speaker 1: mind reading, as though you have to anticipate does this
Speaker 1: person want me around? Do they not want me around?
Speaker 1: He won't communicate clearly, and in a way, it goes
Speaker 1: back to that double bind that if he communicates clearly
Speaker 1: that then he's that so called bad guy again. But
Speaker 1: if you have to do all the heavy lifting and
Speaker 1: figure it out, then ultimately you might be the bad one.
Speaker 1: For oh, how come you didn't come around that much?
Speaker 1: You didn't you know you're you're coming around less? Or
Speaker 1: why did you leave? It's you become the issue, and
Speaker 1: he's not communicating clearly what he wants because it will
Speaker 1: make him almost look bad, just like he didn't want
Speaker 1: to end the relationship with that person at an earlier time.
Speaker 1: So everything goes into this investment of him looking good.
Speaker 1: So that's literally, I mean, it's crazy making right to
Speaker 1: live like that, and that approach avoidance style leaves people
Speaker 1: confused because they're always trying to anticipate that other person's deed.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like when you were friends, that was
Speaker 1: never an issue. See and that's really interesting to me
Speaker 1: and come over any time, or at one point he's
Speaker 1: like moving, which he denied, saying later in the relationship
Speaker 1: it's like moving company time, let's hanging out any time. Yea,
Speaker 1: So now it's you do this dance from November through January. Okay,
Speaker 1: then what did you get into a more even steady
Speaker 1: rhythm at that point? Was that part of the dance done?
Speaker 1: And then what happened from January on? Okay? So January
Speaker 1: things kind of started to settle. And then towards the
Speaker 1: end of January, that was when I expressed that I
Speaker 1: thought I was falling in love with him, and he agreed.
Speaker 1: He said, oh, yes, I am too, but we had
Speaker 1: to take some things in a perspective. That was the
Speaker 1: first major instance of like the gas lighting. So he
Speaker 1: he named three things that he believed for seemingly insurmountable.
Speaker 1: All of these things were things that essentially were my responsibility.
Speaker 1: So one of them was me not wanting kids, which
Speaker 1: he knew well before we started dating, which he also
Speaker 1: married while we were friends. The second thing was compatibility
Speaker 1: in the area of intimacy, which at that point we
Speaker 1: had not been intimate because he was actually withholding from
Speaker 1: me for those first few months. So I want to
Speaker 1: understand this because it sounds like you were saying to
Speaker 1: him at this point, I'm falling in love with you.
Speaker 1: And that led to a cascade of we're not on
Speaker 1: the same page with kids, were not compatible in terms
Speaker 1: of intimacy, Yeah, even though we weren't being intimate, Even
Speaker 1: though you weren't intimate, and he was also falling in
Speaker 1: love with you. But yes, yes, he wanted to have
Speaker 1: kids to kind of have this perfect in his mind.
Speaker 1: He sees like Christmas by the tree and presents and stuff,
Speaker 1: and I was like, you do know, kids are around
Speaker 1: every day, Like it's not just holidays. You do have
Speaker 1: to keep them alive. You have to also make sure
Speaker 1: you don't traumatize them, like that's and it lost money,
Speaker 1: Like it's not just about these lovey dovey moments that
Speaker 1: he wished he had growing up. People tell me I
Speaker 1: would be a great mom. I'm a teacher, of course,
Speaker 1: like I worked with kids, I'm great with kids. That
Speaker 1: does not mean that I want to have kids, nor
Speaker 1: does it mean I should have kids. So obviously, looking
Speaker 1: back and recognizing who I was dealing with in his mind,
Speaker 1: probably someone telling him he would be a great father,
Speaker 1: and he would like, oh, this is another thing that
Speaker 1: would make me look great. So that was the first part.
Speaker 1: The second part was the discussion around compatibility again, he
Speaker 1: was unable to express his needs. So I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't understand how you're concerned about compatibility when we're not
Speaker 1: even having sex. And also that's not even an issue.
Speaker 1: Like you and your partners should talk about the things
Speaker 1: that you like and explore together what the both you
Speaker 1: are comfortable with, and you work from there. That's what
Speaker 1: relationships are about. And yeah, there was a lot of
Speaker 1: ridiculing on his part, just a lot of hurtful things
Speaker 1: were said. At one point he told me, like, you
Speaker 1: knew the relationship I just came out of. You're the
Speaker 1: reason why this might not work. You know, I'm offering suggestions,
Speaker 1: and by offering suggestions, I'm not being understanding of his
Speaker 1: issues or if the suggestion that I offer, I'm going
Speaker 1: to judge him if he's interested in this thing or
Speaker 1: that thing. And I'm like, you're projecting that on me
Speaker 1: because I'm not judging you. Much of what she seems
Speaker 1: to be experiencing here is what happens in any toxic relationship,
Speaker 1: which is blame shifting, and in her case, it was
Speaker 1: coupled with ridicule. All of these things together that she
Speaker 1: was experiencing blame shifting, judgment, ridicule and projection are standard
Speaker 1: parts of these relationships. They actually make sense. The questions
Speaker 1: and conversations about intimacy may have been threatening to him
Speaker 1: and playing off of his shame and insecurity. And the
Speaker 1: challenge in these relationships is that if you ping their shame,
Speaker 1: they will launch into lots of defensive maneuvers to protect themselves,
Speaker 1: even if it hurts the other person. The other problem
Speaker 1: becomes when the other person in the relationship is willing
Speaker 1: to justify this behavior. Oh, they're just doing this because
Speaker 1: they're insecure. If you do that for many years, then
Speaker 1: you are effectively becoming a long term committed punching bag
Speaker 1: and during their bad behavior out of a misplaced sense
Speaker 1: of guilt or empathy. The lack of empathy in these
Speaker 1: relationships means that they are a one way street. Lots
Speaker 1: of empathy for them, none for the other person, and
Speaker 1: some blame as the cherry on top a dynamic that
Speaker 1: is not good for anyone. I'm hearing the salute confusion
Speaker 1: and how did you feel? I mean, you're telling this
Speaker 1: person I'm falling in love with you, and you were
Speaker 1: basically being given a laundry list of reasons why this
Speaker 1: may not work out. I didn't expect it because I'm like,
Speaker 1: this guy told me that he was into me for
Speaker 1: two years, like the whole time you were into me,
Speaker 1: and so I guess walking into it, I was like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: I just have to be myself, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And yes, we have to work through things, but I
Speaker 1: just had to be myself. And it ended up becoming
Speaker 1: a time where I took a week of space and
Speaker 1: I told him everything. I felt like, I felt like
Speaker 1: I was gas lit. I felt like I was villainized, realiculed.
Speaker 1: I felt like I had to earn your luck, like
Speaker 1: you were telling me, They're these three things that are
Speaker 1: seemingly insurmountable, which means impossible to overcome. That I have
Speaker 1: to essentially figure out to earn your love. So it
Speaker 1: was like I thought I already had that, but then
Speaker 1: it's like, no, just kidding. Here she is talking about
Speaker 1: one of the most painful elements of any relationship characterized
Speaker 1: by antagonism or narcissistic patterns, and that is conditional love.
Speaker 1: The idea that you have to earn a person's love,
Speaker 1: jump through hoops for their love, that you are loved
Speaker 1: because of what you do. Instead of simply being loved.
Speaker 1: All of that is conditional love. It's a very unhealthy
Speaker 1: precedent and is often one that started in childhood for
Speaker 1: most people. It makes relationships transactional and is a key
Speaker 1: element of trauma bonding, the idea that if I am
Speaker 1: better or do better or am more, then I will
Speaker 1: be loved. So if I am not loved, then that
Speaker 1: means I am not trying hard enough. And I was like,
Speaker 1: but why am I not leaving? Maybe I'm not leaving
Speaker 1: because I feel like this will be the last time
Speaker 1: I see him, And I ended up staying and the
Speaker 1: next morning there is like no affection from him at all.
Speaker 1: And I remember like he was working out and I
Speaker 1: was just trying to decide should I just leave, and
Speaker 1: like that's it? And he says to me, why are
Speaker 1: you acting weird? Why are you acting funny? It was
Speaker 1: such an odd thing. So, yeah, I did ask for
Speaker 1: a week off of whatever we were doing because I
Speaker 1: was like, I need to come back to a sense
Speaker 1: of self, which I said to him, what happened in
Speaker 1: that week off? Did things change? We didn't talk for
Speaker 1: that week, so a lot of what I was doing
Speaker 1: I was talking to my therapist, talking to friends, and
Speaker 1: just trying to make sense of everything, just trying to
Speaker 1: understand what was going on, Like is this okay? Should
Speaker 1: I consider moving forward? Do I want to end this?
Speaker 1: I remember feeling a lot of anxiety. So at the
Speaker 1: end of the week, what happened in your relationship? So like,
Speaker 1: the week has gone by, you're not talking to each other? Okay,
Speaker 1: then what So there was a point in the week
Speaker 1: where I reached out to discuss when we were going
Speaker 1: to meet up, because it was kind of like, let's
Speaker 1: take a break and like, really think is this what
Speaker 1: we want to do? So I reached out to check in, Hey,
Speaker 1: what day do you want to meet up? That kind
Speaker 1: of a say. Of course, I asked him how he
Speaker 1: was doing, and he's like, I'm awful, just kind of
Speaker 1: like bopie and stuff. So we met up the following
Speaker 1: week and I remember him asking me to take photos
Speaker 1: for him before we sat out. Was like, that's so weird.
Speaker 1: Like when I look back, I was like, why are you,
Speaker 1: Like we're discussing like the future of our relationship, why
Speaker 1: are you having me take photos of you for your posts?
Speaker 1: But when we had the conversation, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of like, that's not what I meant. There was one
Speaker 1: thing that he did say to me. This is also
Speaker 1: the first time he had said I was being passive
Speaker 1: aggressive the day where I was acting funny, but he
Speaker 1: said something to me in that kind of like reconnecting conversation,
Speaker 1: which was, I like to think about the future. If
Speaker 1: we have an issue, are you going to run off,
Speaker 1: like to your mom's house and not talk to me
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time. I want to know
Speaker 1: that if we have issues, you're not just going to
Speaker 1: run away and not talk to me, Which was an
Speaker 1: odd thing to say, but I think at that point
Speaker 1: I wanted things to be okay and I wanted as
Speaker 1: to move forward. But now, like looking back, I was like, what, Like,
Speaker 1: I was very clear about how I felt, and I
Speaker 1: asked for a break, Like it wasn't that I just disappeared,
Speaker 1: and I put a time frame on it. This is
Speaker 1: not just me running off. So we decided to progress,
Speaker 1: and it was just kind of if we're in this,
Speaker 1: let's both be in this, and he kind of agreed
Speaker 1: to that, and he said even like the whole idea
Speaker 1: about me being responsible for his boundaries, Like he even said,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that anymore. What is interesting about
Speaker 1: what we've heard here is that there is an interesting
Speaker 1: penny drop moment in relationships with people. I mean, and
Speaker 1: at this point, you know, there's this approach avoidance style.
Speaker 1: Just when it's almost like you think it's going well
Speaker 1: is exactly when they'll pull back. And that really sets
Speaker 1: up a trauma bond to dance because you're constantly sort
Speaker 1: of chasing them and and you are actually trying to
Speaker 1: communicate really really clearly, like these are the things I've
Speaker 1: been very clear on. I don't want kids. I want
Speaker 1: us to communicate about intimacy. You're very very clear, And
Speaker 1: those things would then get sort of distorted and twisted
Speaker 1: and confused, especially in the wake of a really big
Speaker 1: emotional revelation that I'm falling in love with you. And
Speaker 1: I always save to folks the falling in love moment,
Speaker 1: that I love you moment in a toxic or narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationship is such a revelation because it's exactly then it's
Speaker 1: almost as though they know they have you, and that's
Speaker 1: when it's sort of game on. And I think that's
Speaker 1: a moment of real devastation for people because they're saying
Speaker 1: we were actually doing fine before I shared how I
Speaker 1: really feel Now I did, and I feel like it's
Speaker 1: just worse. Even out Up until this point in this relationship,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of chasing. He was on, he
Speaker 1: was off, I want to be alone. I don't want
Speaker 1: to be alone. I want to be alone. I don't
Speaker 1: want you to leave me. I mean, so it's like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff again, approach, avoidance, abandonment, all
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. My session with Charlah will continue
Speaker 1: after this break. So as your relationship continued, I am
Speaker 1: hearing that there was a certain level of exhaustion to it.
Speaker 1: And although intellectually you seem to hear and know that
Speaker 1: there were issues with it, there was also some concern
Speaker 1: after that week when you were out of touch, that
Speaker 1: you wanted it to continue to work right, but things
Speaker 1: were continuing to unravel. What would you start categorizing as
Speaker 1: the last straws of your relationship? What were some of
Speaker 1: those incidents that really said I can't anymore? So January
Speaker 1: for me was actually first straw, like first or first strike.
Speaker 1: That January conversation was first strike. But I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna how to be mature and like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: express how I feel and what I need and give
Speaker 1: us an opportunity to just trying to be mature and relationships.
Speaker 1: So strike number two was that other incident in March.
Speaker 1: Then things are good again and then we gone this
Speaker 1: vacation at the end of May. Around May, I noticed
Speaker 1: he was like rebranding on social media. So I'm starting
Speaker 1: to see different types of posts. There was one post
Speaker 1: about the one that got away, and then it was
Speaker 1: the post about the young ladies shaking their asses into
Speaker 1: loom so he could see it. So that was, Okay,
Speaker 1: we need to have a conversation because if we're in
Speaker 1: a relationship, you're actually posting videos of me with you.
Speaker 1: He had me like in reels and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: so people were starting to ask questions like, oh, is
Speaker 1: that your girlfriend? Is that what you're with? So people
Speaker 1: knew we were together. So I got to write an
Speaker 1: article about this amazing world traveler. I did like a
Speaker 1: photo shoot at this clothing swap here and the photos
Speaker 1: had just come out, Like I was just really feeling
Speaker 1: great about myself at the time, and even share that
Speaker 1: with him. And it was a few days after I
Speaker 1: shared that with him that this post happened. So he
Speaker 1: posted about single women shaking their asses into looms so
Speaker 1: that he could see it, like and posting it so
Speaker 1: he could see it. I remember immediately responding to the
Speaker 1: post and saying not funny. And then he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: other people thought it was funny or whatever. We had
Speaker 1: been texting throughout the day. We were both with family
Speaker 1: throughout that day. He kind of noticed, like my vibe
Speaker 1: was different, so he's like, is everything okay? And I
Speaker 1: was like, I really am a bit bothered by that post.
Speaker 1: And then his response immediately, oh, so just to be clear,
Speaker 1: we're still not talking about things were worried about or
Speaker 1: concerned about right away. And also because I'm in a relationship,
Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to post about singleness or like dating anymore.
Speaker 1: That was his immediate response. And I said, Okay, I
Speaker 1: actually am coming to you as I'm feeling what I'm feeling,
Speaker 1: and let's talk about it in person. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to have a text conversation because you're with your brother
Speaker 1: and I'm with my mom right now. And then he
Speaker 1: praised me for that. He said, oh, I love that
Speaker 1: you understand that there's a place and time for certain conversations,
Speaker 1: even though he just like essentially double blind. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, So we have the conversation about
Speaker 1: the post, and it became about again it was a joke.
Speaker 1: Other people thought it was funny. Essentially, I was being
Speaker 1: too sensitive about this post. This idea of saying something
Speaker 1: is a joke and painting someone who was heard or
Speaker 1: bothered by something as being sensitive or not having a
Speaker 1: sense of humor is a classical play in toxic relationships.
Speaker 1: It's a way of leaving you feeling like maybe you
Speaker 1: are being too serious and not being cool and chill.
Speaker 1: It's a gaslighting maneuver that allows them to minimize the
Speaker 1: harm they are doing and painting you as sensitive and humorless.
Speaker 1: Is he not allowed to post about singleness because he's
Speaker 1: in a relationship now? Then it became a conversation about
Speaker 1: objectifying women. Oh Am, I not allowed to follow Instagram models?
Speaker 1: Does that mean I can't watch porn? Does that mean
Speaker 1: I can't go to strip clubs? Like? Where do you
Speaker 1: draw the line on what I'm allowed to do? Essentially,
Speaker 1: he was actually at one point like demanding, so what
Speaker 1: do you want me to do? Because I want you
Speaker 1: to feel secure in this relationship. But what do you
Speaker 1: want me to do? Do you want me to not
Speaker 1: follow these people? Do you not want me to post
Speaker 1: about women or post about singleness or post about sex?
Speaker 1: And again he said like something along the lines of
Speaker 1: comedians post about sex all the time and they're married.
Speaker 1: I remember saying, well, are you a comedian? I don't
Speaker 1: even know who you are, Like you know, because it
Speaker 1: just felt like he kept changing. So when he made
Speaker 1: his suggestions for what he should do, I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. At one point he told me I
Speaker 1: needed to talk to my therapist about how I feel
Speaker 1: about the objectification of women. He also told me that
Speaker 1: I made him feel uncomfortable because I made faces at
Speaker 1: him at times where he talked about me wearing clothing
Speaker 1: that showed more skin. I wanted to have a conversation
Speaker 1: about how we communicate and conflict, and that kind of
Speaker 1: showed me that there was no accountability because I specify,
Speaker 1: let's have some moment of introspection about how we're communicating
Speaker 1: in these moments where we're not agreeing on things, and
Speaker 1: he kind of like prides himself on being impatient, so
Speaker 1: that was like the one thing that he brought up
Speaker 1: in his introspection. The other introspection was that he is
Speaker 1: always willing to do things to make other people happy,
Speaker 1: and so he felt like this was an other situation
Speaker 1: where he's now forfeiting his happiness and his identity and
Speaker 1: his authenticity to make me happy, which obviously I didn't
Speaker 1: feel great about. And I even suggested not following him
Speaker 1: so that he can be his authentic self online, and
Speaker 1: he did not like that. He then also mentioned that
Speaker 1: I engage with some of his friends posts more than
Speaker 1: I engaged his, and that was problematic to him. And
Speaker 1: obviously he had an issue that I didn't share posts
Speaker 1: about him or post him or post videos with him.
Speaker 1: So again, it's like you said that this I can't win.
Speaker 1: If I let you be your authentic self and post
Speaker 1: whatever you want and not follow you, that's not okay.
Speaker 1: But if you don't post these things, then that's also
Speaker 1: not okay because you're not being allowed to be I'm
Speaker 1: being controlling. So that's kind of when I realized this
Speaker 1: has got to end, because I just I didn't see
Speaker 1: the behavior changing, or I didn't see the behavior changing
Speaker 1: soon enough for me to not be injured more times
Speaker 1: than I already was, and yeah, that just became a
Speaker 1: series of conversations about this is what I'm experiencing when
Speaker 1: we're having these conversations. I am seeing gaslighting, I am saying,
Speaker 1: I am seeing blame shifting, I am seeing projection. I
Speaker 1: remember thinking at times in our relationship that I was
Speaker 1: too much and not enough. It's a brilliant characterization that
Speaker 1: idea have too much and not enough, And unfortunately too
Speaker 1: much is not a positive thing, right, it's too much
Speaker 1: your extra is you talk about this whole thing with
Speaker 1: him wanting to post these pictures about single hood even
Speaker 1: though he's not. I want to post about these attractive
Speaker 1: women online, on and on and on. The one thing
Speaker 1: I didn't hear in the conversation from him is a
Speaker 1: shred of empathy. Yeah, all I'm hearing him saying is
Speaker 1: what's the rule? What's this? What's the d that? But
Speaker 1: at no point am I hearing that this guy is
Speaker 1: asking you how are you feeling? How do you feel
Speaker 1: a about this? Because it is humiliating, it is degrading,
Speaker 1: it's valuing, it is invalidating. It is as though I
Speaker 1: am running a different life online than with you, and
Speaker 1: I expect you to be okay with it, but he
Speaker 1: makes it. And this is very common in these kinds
Speaker 1: of relationships. Tell me the rules, Tell me the rules.
Speaker 1: Tell me the rules, with absolutely no regard of how
Speaker 1: might another person feel about this. This manipulation is actually
Speaker 1: at a very high level. If you ask me to
Speaker 1: do these things, not post this and all of that,
Speaker 1: you're in essence telling me to not be my authentic self,
Speaker 1: which for someone like you who does have empathy, nobody
Speaker 1: who loves somebody would ever want to say to them, well,
Speaker 1: I don't actually want you to be yourself. But what
Speaker 1: this fool is saying is myself is to act like
Speaker 1: a a jerk online that objectifies women, that is posturing
Speaker 1: and tending to be a single guy in social media
Speaker 1: while I'm going to be in a relationship with you
Speaker 1: outside of that space, and because you both had the
Speaker 1: sort of interesting understanding that you weren't going to post
Speaker 1: about your relationship online. And I have to say, this
Speaker 1: particular disconnect is something I'm seeing a lot of people
Speaker 1: struggle with these days, is wanting to pretend to be
Speaker 1: single online for their brand. And I'm like, yo, if
Speaker 1: this is how you're playing, this is not a relationship,
Speaker 1: because the idea of a healthy human being is that
Speaker 1: you live as a whole person. You know that you
Speaker 1: don't have to put one identity here and one identity there.
Speaker 1: Like you are either in in it with someone or
Speaker 1: you're not. You're either respecting and empathizing with them or
Speaker 1: you're not. And I think that this idea of behavioral
Speaker 1: accountability is not something that this person would do. But
Speaker 1: it sounds like this was it at this point. The
Speaker 1: amount of manipulation, the amount of in an approach, avoidance,
Speaker 1: double bind, gas lighting, lack of empathy, all of it
Speaker 1: has sort of reached ahead for you. How were you
Speaker 1: physically feeling it? Like, how did this affect you in
Speaker 1: your mind, in your body? Because this is a lot,
Speaker 1: And you know what's so hard is in a way
Speaker 1: he's kind of arguing in a loyally way. This is
Speaker 1: something that people with these personalities do all the time.
Speaker 1: They argue like attorneys, right, And that's all very interesting
Speaker 1: in a court of law, it has no place in
Speaker 1: a relationship, none whatsoever, Because in a court of law
Speaker 1: there's no accounting for feeling or empathy or compassion. Okay,
Speaker 1: But in a relationship, that's all that matters, So he
Speaker 1: would do all this loyally, kind of trying to break
Speaker 1: you down. And it's exhausting if you actually have feelings,
Speaker 1: very exhausting. So how were you feeling psychologically and physically
Speaker 1: as this as at this point, this thing has gotten
Speaker 1: so toxic. Yeah, like you said, I was very exhausted.
Speaker 1: And I remember, even throughout the relationship, constantly saying in
Speaker 1: their people, is this supposed to be this hard? Like?
Speaker 1: You know, like I know that you know, I don't
Speaker 1: have as much experience with relationships when I'm like, is
Speaker 1: it supposed to be this hard? Like I'm tired, Like
Speaker 1: this is really exhausting. And I do recall between my
Speaker 1: last annual physical and the end of that relationship, I
Speaker 1: had gone to the doctor for so many things g
Speaker 1: I issues strapped. Towards the end of the relationship, I
Speaker 1: got struck for the first time ever and it was
Speaker 1: resistant to the first round of antibiotic. I lost weight.
Speaker 1: But I had also had just started my medication journey
Speaker 1: for a d h D, and so I was just
Speaker 1: attributing it to the medication. But there was a season
Speaker 1: where I took a break from a d h D
Speaker 1: met so that I could regain weight, and I was
Speaker 1: still I'm under weight right now, I broke out in
Speaker 1: hives random at once. Everything that I use on my
Speaker 1: body has no fragrance. I don't use dryer sheets like,
Speaker 1: so I'm like, why am I breaking out? Like I
Speaker 1: don't understand, And looking back, I realized that was my
Speaker 1: body being like but like it almost became a running
Speaker 1: joke at my doctor's office, like I went to the
Speaker 1: doctor so many times. So yeah, definitely exhausted emotionally, physically,
Speaker 1: very sad of course, just recognizing that this relationship is
Speaker 1: probably not gonna work. And still, you know, before I
Speaker 1: went completely no contact, I'm still thinking, like, this person
Speaker 1: cares about me, this person loves me, you know, to
Speaker 1: the end, He's like he ordered food, Like after we
Speaker 1: broke up, he ordered door Dash for me to make
Speaker 1: sure I was eating. He's telling me he loves me,
Speaker 1: misses me. But he's also this is where I started
Speaker 1: seeing him play the victim more. I feel like that
Speaker 1: I have to be this different, better healed version of
Speaker 1: myself in order to be essentially good enough for you.
Speaker 1: And I want you to have what you want and
Speaker 1: what you need. You don't have to change, though, I
Speaker 1: think you're perfect the way you are. I later found
Speaker 1: out the narrative that he's been feeding to other people
Speaker 1: after the breakup was that I dumped him and he
Speaker 1: doesn't know why. We were supposed to go to Mexico
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks later for birthday. He was actively
Speaker 1: looking for my replacement while telling me he missed me,
Speaker 1: and not just a random but like a girlfriend replacement.
Speaker 1: It was just very confusing because I'm like, why this
Speaker 1: person is telling me they don't want to hurt me,
Speaker 1: but they are very unwilling to acknowledge that they're hurting me.
Speaker 1: I remember crying and just being like, please, can you
Speaker 1: understand like how you're hurting me? And he was just lip.
Speaker 1: It was just like there was nothing. If I ever
Speaker 1: said anything like gaslighting, he would just go like cold.
Speaker 1: It's almost like he cannot accept that he's doing anything
Speaker 1: wrong because it doesn't fit with the person he wants
Speaker 1: to be, and cuts to see himself as I just
Speaker 1: remember saying, this is too familiar. What just happened in
Speaker 1: my body too familiar. I have to go. He noticed
Speaker 1: that and he actually tried to clean up after that moment.
Speaker 1: He's like no, no, no, but I want you to
Speaker 1: know that I understand what you're saying and up, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just it's been a lot to process. When I decided
Speaker 1: to go no contact is because we met up after
Speaker 1: the breakup. We had gone out to eat. We wanted
Speaker 1: to discuss if we wanted to still do Mexico because
Speaker 1: we still had fun even though times were hard, and
Speaker 1: he embarrassed me in front of a bakery. Essentially, a
Speaker 1: young lady mentioned that we looked que and she wanted
Speaker 1: to call her husband because we were such a vibe,
Speaker 1: and he announced to the bakery that she just broke
Speaker 1: up with me. And that's when I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: Mexico can't happen, because you're really unpredictable right now, and
Speaker 1: you are just grasping, like this is wild, Like you're
Speaker 1: not telling them why we broke up, you know, you're
Speaker 1: telling a bunch of random people. He laughed in my
Speaker 1: face when I told him it was embarrassing. He hadn't
Speaker 1: told any of his friends. In fact, I found out
Speaker 1: later the one friend he supposedly told, he actually told
Speaker 1: her that I asked for space and he was helping
Speaker 1: me get back together. So it was definitely a lot
Speaker 1: of like the post breakup stuff, but just constant anxiety
Speaker 1: every single day, the grief of knowing that even the
Speaker 1: good moments were really just manipulation. You know, the self
Speaker 1: blame as out of this world, because I can pinpoint
Speaker 1: moments where I was like, that's odd, or he didn't
Speaker 1: really show empathy towards his friend in that situation. Is
Speaker 1: he going to be like that with me? Do you
Speaker 1: feel more anxious or do you feel more resolved? And
Speaker 1: why is that not happening in this relationship? Do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And so I have to give
Speaker 1: credit to the healthy relationships in my life I'm very
Speaker 1: grateful for because I could compare and saying, Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't feel this way around these people. This is unique.
Speaker 1: This person is increasing my anxiety, like and no one's
Speaker 1: responsible for removing my anxious feelings, of course. But if
Speaker 1: I'm with someone and I'm becoming more anxious because I'm
Speaker 1: around that person, like, that's probably telling. Even if you
Speaker 1: express the real need or any real feedback of feeling,
Speaker 1: it would be you think I'm a monster. Right, So
Speaker 1: all these things block any form of conversation. But at
Speaker 1: the end of it, though the relationship ends, you know,
Speaker 1: you recognized it had reached its limit, and you did
Speaker 1: that less than a year, which is actually a good
Speaker 1: thing because you can see how people can get really
Speaker 1: confused in these relationships and keep going around and around. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe I should try this. Maybe I didn't say this right,
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll try it this way. You keep chasing and chasing.
Speaker 1: Ultimately you hit your wall, and it sounds like did
Speaker 1: you ended? Did he ended? Did you mutually ended? They're
Speaker 1: actually moments where I'm not even sure, you're not even
Speaker 1: sure it's done. Yeah, I you know, I was the
Speaker 1: one who prompted the ending of it, okay, and so
Speaker 1: then you ended it. And then you did meet him
Speaker 1: again one last time, you know, in that sense of right,
Speaker 1: maybe we could still have this trip. We started as friends,
Speaker 1: Maybe we could end as friends. Right. There is the
Speaker 1: crux of the issue. These personality styles do not change.
Speaker 1: This is the behavior. And I'll tell you, had you
Speaker 1: stayed another five years, ten years, twenty years, would have
Speaker 1: been the same patterns. You know, And I think the
Speaker 1: grief is for somebody who stays one year is actually
Speaker 1: a nice amount of time, because one year is almost like, okay,
Speaker 1: I didn't buther that much time into it, and it
Speaker 1: takes about that long to get enough data to know
Speaker 1: it probably won't change, and to clearly see all of
Speaker 1: the toxic patterns repeatedly enough so you don't doubt yourself
Speaker 1: when you decide to get out. Obviously, shorter is better,
Speaker 1: but a year is kind of expected in these kinds
Speaker 1: of relationship. But the people who do, say five, ten,
Speaker 1: fifteen years, will often say, shoot, you know, this was
Speaker 1: so clearly a pattern two years and three years, and
Speaker 1: and now I've put a lot of time into it,
Speaker 1: and then that was that. So you went no contact,
Speaker 1: which it's a strategy response that's not available to a
Speaker 1: lot of folks coming out of these relationships, especially if
Speaker 1: they have sort of shared children, shared business, and even
Speaker 1: shared friends. Can make it hard, right, And I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's not always easy because you do have mutual you know,
Speaker 1: people who know each other. But many people will say,
Speaker 1: if you can go no contact, it really is you
Speaker 1: you describe something different. Initially, you were flooded by a
Speaker 1: recognition of everything you had just gone through. And I'm
Speaker 1: glad you put it that way, because that initial flood
Speaker 1: actually can overwhelm you, because if you keep having contact
Speaker 1: with them, they keep coming up with their usual rationalizations,
Speaker 1: and it stops the flood, right because now they're giving
Speaker 1: you another explanation, and it almost allows you to soften it.
Speaker 1: But if you go no contact, it's a bit of
Speaker 1: a tidal wave that comes over you where you're saying, oh,
Speaker 1: what the heck just happened? And you do you feel
Speaker 1: not only do you ruminate, but you feel anxious. It's
Speaker 1: not like I went no contact and I felt better overnight.
Speaker 1: If anything, you go no contact and now your brain
Speaker 1: and your body and your mind and your psyche have
Speaker 1: a minute to say without anything blocking it everything that happened.
Speaker 1: So how have you been doing now you've been no
Speaker 1: contact for a little while, how are you feeling out?
Speaker 1: Do you feel like the hyper vigilance has improved or
Speaker 1: any of your fears are are baiting? Or where are
Speaker 1: you at? I definitely feel a lot better. So when
Speaker 1: we last spoke, that was about a month, and and
Speaker 1: that was actually around the time where I started to
Speaker 1: see like a turning point with the anxiety. So there
Speaker 1: are moments where I'm like good, and then there's things
Speaker 1: that happened that I'm just like, when is this going
Speaker 1: to be over? But I have a second therapist now
Speaker 1: who specializes in a m d R. I've read way
Speaker 1: too many books about narcissism and recovering from narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: I'm part of a support group on Facebook which has
Speaker 1: been really helpful. I'm going to be talking to an
Speaker 1: i p A counselor soon Intimate partner abuse counselor SIN
Speaker 1: just to It took me a while to actually accept
Speaker 1: the fact that I was essentially in an abusive relationship.
Speaker 1: Like I could say it, but it didn't really connect.
Speaker 1: So yeah, just kind of navigating all of the different
Speaker 1: emotions and letting the emotions come as they come and
Speaker 1: feeling them. I started kind of exploring that relationship, but Okay,
Speaker 1: what do I need to go to that to like
Speaker 1: or went to a gym and use like their whirlpool
Speaker 1: or a steam room, went to get a massage, Like
Speaker 1: just trying to like make sure that I'm listening to
Speaker 1: myself deon what I mean, because I feel I didn't
Speaker 1: do that. You know, even though I spoke up in
Speaker 1: the relationship and I challenge my ex and I think
Speaker 1: that's part of why I was able to see something
Speaker 1: so glaringly, I still did not listen to myself for
Speaker 1: a long time, and so just making sure that I'm
Speaker 1: doing that has been very big. And trying to be
Speaker 1: patient because I want to be okay like tomorrow or yesterday,
Speaker 1: but I know it's going to take some time, and
Speaker 1: I don't know how long. I do not trust men
Speaker 1: right now at all. I've had people come to me
Speaker 1: and they're like, wow, I got a lot to think
Speaker 1: about with regard to what I'm going through right now,
Speaker 1: or I've gone through this as well, and so that's
Speaker 1: that's been very All of that's been very healing. So
Speaker 1: I think it's just a matter of time now because
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm doing a lot of things. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's great it is that you are doing
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and I think that's what healing
Speaker 1: is about, is doing all of those things. It's not
Speaker 1: just a singular path. I cannot thank you enough for
Speaker 1: the generosity of your time, of your story, of you know,
Speaker 1: of letting people know that no matter how you set
Speaker 1: the boundaries, somehow person wants to find their way in
Speaker 1: they will. And for us to learn about ourselves, trust ourselves,
Speaker 1: and again ultimately find that safety in ourselves. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much. I'm very grateful to you for your time.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Here are my takeaways
Speaker 1: from Shalla's story. First, whether you know someone well or not,
Speaker 1: always be a little wary when you enter a relationship
Speaker 1: at a transitional time of your life, after a breakup,
Speaker 1: moving to a new city, or moving back from time away,
Speaker 1: or starting a new job. At those times, we are
Speaker 1: often seeking stability, safety, consistency, and just something to help
Speaker 1: us feel better or have something to look forward to.
Speaker 1: Shalla admits that she was at a transition snal time
Speaker 1: despite them being friends when they entered the relationship, and
Speaker 1: she was seeking a soft place to land, which made
Speaker 1: the relationship attractive. But the comfort can sometimes block us
Speaker 1: from seeing red flags. Conditional love is a standard feature
Speaker 1: of all toxic and narcissistic relationships. These are often very
Speaker 1: transactional relationships where love feels like it needs to be earned.
Speaker 1: People who grew up with conditional love, and this is
Speaker 1: often something that happens with distracted, ecocentric or narcissistic parents,
Speaker 1: is that we feel as though we need to earn
Speaker 1: their love or jump through hoops to even be seen.
Speaker 1: Without even noticing it, we may find ourselves sliding into
Speaker 1: conditional cycles and feeling we have to perform or do
Speaker 1: what the other person wants to be loved. This is
Speaker 1: the core of the trauma bond, so be aware of
Speaker 1: this pernicious cycle. Love in the age of social media
Speaker 1: makes for a really difficult landscape, and in a narcissistic relationship,
Speaker 1: it can feel impossible that idea of maintaining different identities
Speaker 1: to get validation. For example, as in her story, her
Speaker 1: partner sort of pretending to be single on social media
Speaker 1: is very uncomfortable and hurtful in a relationship. In addition,
Speaker 1: it is often the touchpoint of so many arguments why
Speaker 1: didn't you like my post? Why do you like more
Speaker 1: of my friends posts? And it's also a space where
Speaker 1: people may feel disrespected or that they are in an
Speaker 1: alternate universe with their partner. Navigating this mess with a
Speaker 1: narcissistic person is not easy. It really comes down to
Speaker 1: how they use social media or if they have it
Speaker 1: at all. If they're using it for validation, then anything
Speaker 1: that you do it seems to threaten that water spigot
Speaker 1: of admiration is going to cause a fight. Realistic expectations
Speaker 1: are necessary, and if it's early enough in the relationship
Speaker 1: and this keeps becoming an argument. Reflect on the fact
Speaker 1: that this person's virtual world is more important than your
Speaker 1: real life feelings and go from there. I recommend to
Speaker 1: every client I work with who is in or recently
Speaker 1: got out of a narcissistic relationship to get a physical
Speaker 1: exam if they haven't had one in a while. The
Speaker 1: stress of these relationships literally do make us sick. Headaches,
Speaker 1: muscle aches, difficulty sleeping, hair loss, and gastro intestinal issues
Speaker 1: are not uncommon, and if you have an existing health condition,
Speaker 1: the unremitting stress of a toxic relationship can exacerbate your symptoms.
Speaker 1: At a minimum, you want to rule out that your
Speaker 1: health symptoms are not symptoms of something more severe, because
Speaker 1: many folks and narcissistic relationships, not surprisingly, don't take very
Speaker 1: good care of their health. While your healthcare provider can't
Speaker 1: surgically remove this relationship from your life, at least ensure
Speaker 1: that you stay on top of any health changes and
Speaker 1: symptoms and work with them on stress management techniques that
Speaker 1: may help with your health. And if you can disengage
Speaker 1: in distance from this relationship, all the better. A big
Speaker 1: thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valan Jethrow,
Speaker 1: Ellen Rakaton and Dr rominey der Vassila. And thank you
Speaker 1: to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa
Speaker 1: and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
Speaker 1: editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff