WEBVTT - Bitcoin, Privacy and Human rights With Alex Gladstein 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.520 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.760 this started. Bitcoin is many things too many people. One 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:32.160 reason why it's so hard to understand is because there's 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.720 so many different things that you have to understand to 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:36.879 really get it. There's a lot of things that excite 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.280 me and other people about bitcoin, including making money, of course, 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.960 which attracts the most people, the ability to have a 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.440 new money outside of the fed UM, the ability to 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.120 take away trust from major institutions, and so many other things. 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.519 But one of the unintended consequences of bitcoin that I 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.040 really am excited about is it's got people to start 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.400 paying attention. It's got people to pay attention and learn. 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.520 It's got people interested in things economics, Austrian economics, freedom, 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.080 human violations and things like that. And it's it's it's 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.920 opened up people's minds. It's it's increased their enthusiasm to learn, 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:13.119 their curiosity um and you know, one of the things 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.480 that I've really put a lot of attention into over 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.160 the last couple of years, as I've gone further and 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.319 further into the bitcoin rabbit hole, is um the oppression 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.160 that that's happening around the world, the human rights violations. 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.039 We're seeing it pop up more than ever right now. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.240 You know, there's half a dozen countries with one to 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.399 two million people marching and protesting, and it's only getting worse. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.320 And today I am sitting down with Alex Gladstein, he's 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.720 the chief strategy officer at the Human Rights Foundation, and 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.039 we get into talking um a little bit of the 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.759 talk that he gave about how bitcoin is going against 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.760 helping us fight back against Big Brother and the financial 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.440 rights and how they're human rights and so a really 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.440 interesting conversation. We dive into into those topics um different 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.400 countries around the world, what they're facing. We talk about 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.760 something he likes to call privacy capitalism, which is a 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.160 really interesting topic and UH, anyway, it was a great conversation. 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.200 If you want to know more about bitcoin, uh, financial privacy, privacy, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.200 financial sovereignty, and how we can fight back against Big Brother, 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.400 then UH definitely recommend you listen to let's jump right in. Hello, 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.320 and welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.040 I'm joined by Alex Gladstein. He is the chief Strategy 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.880 Officer at the Human Rights Foundation as well as faculty 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.280 at the Singularity University. He's been doing a lot of 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.600 work in human rights and specifically technology, bitcoin, et cetera 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:35.600 that can free us, and so I've been looking forward 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.040 to this conversation. Alex, Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.000 for having me on. Yeah, so, uh, yeah, you know, 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:43.639 we've had a couple of conversations. I've seen some of 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.320 your videos that you're doing. I love the work that 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:46.800 you're doing in the in the space that you're doing, 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.280 and I think it's super important for the revolution that 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.560 we're kind of seeing. But for those that don't know 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.440 what you've been doing, want you give us a little 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.560 background on yourself and what you're doing. Sure, So, since 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.160 two thousand seven, I've been working for a nonprofit called 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.359 the Human Rights Foundation, which focuses on promoting civil liberties 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:09.320 and human rights for people who live under authoritarian regimes. So, 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.720 by our account, that's about uh ninety three countries, four 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.400 billion people who live under a government that's either a 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.800 one party state or a kingdom or a dictatorship of 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.880 some kind where there's no real separation of powers, or 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.560 free and fair elections, or free expression or ability to 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.919 really hold your government accountable or even write an opted 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.440 in a newspaper. These are places where independent media is 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.680 either persecuted or non existent. UM. This ranges from the 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:42.120 the extremely oppressive like North Korea or Eritrea, all the 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.640 way through countries like China, Vietnam, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.160 it really runs the gamut. So we specialize in helping 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.880 people who live under these very difficult political environments. And 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.960 technology has always been a huge part of this. Whether 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:03.720 it's by when I first started sending in DVDs to 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.720 the Cuban Underground Library movement so that Cubans could access 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.760 stories and narratives that were forbidden, to our work with 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.800 North Korea, where we've smuggled in tens of thousands of 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.040 flash drives and USB sticks and SD cards packed with 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.679 movies and films about the outside world. UM to work 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.440 with people who are doing everything from uh mesh networks 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:30.120 to encrypted communications to you know, using satellites, even to 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.200 expose human rights violations. So technology has always been an 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.479 interesting tool for good. But then of course we're also 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:40.679 seeing how uh you know, governments like China are using 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.640 technology to perfect social engineering, and other governments are using 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.600 technology to shut off the Internet and keep their people isolated. 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.520 So it's kind of a two sides of the narrative. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:56.479 But I very much believe in technologies that are empowering 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.520 and decentralizing as as pretty essential to the to the 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.880 future of human rights. Now, when you talk about human rights, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.400 uh as a whole, categorically, I guess, first of all, 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:09.760 you talk about ninety three countries, four billion people. I 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.559 guess even the freest country, America, the Land of the Free, 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.120 is still maybe you know, not totally free. So I 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.359 guess it's like a sliding scale, right, there's no black 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.159 and white. There's like Norway. It's like Norway to North Korea. Right, 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.599 so you've got Norway where like it's pretty much the 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:29.200 most open and arguably free country by most metrics, um, 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.120 all the way down to North Korea, which is the 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.400 least open and free. So that, yeah, there's no black 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:38.080 and white, but but there is actually um something called 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.520 a town square test that the Soviet discident and the 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.640 Tom Sharansky invented where you know, think about it. Can 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.760 you go to the center of your town or or 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.640 city or village or wherever you live and and and 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.599 criticize the government openly? And you know, for about ninety 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.839 three countries you can't do that, Like, you can't do 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.520 that without risk of getting fired or um, you know, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:06.279 without risk of getting kidnapped, killed, etcetera. Here in America, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.799 while I agree that we have many problems, like people 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.280 make a living off making fun of the president, they 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.080 make actually quite a healthy living doing so on many 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.960 different networks. So you know, we have a really vibrant 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.720 tradition of free expression here which is really really important. 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.160 And this this is the same in many other countries 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.640 around the world, um to different extents, but generally speaking, 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.680 you do need to apply some sort of political science 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:34.479 rigor to this and actually differentiate. I mean, the sort 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.960 of people on the internet who compare America to North 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.880 Korea are are wrong, I believe, um. And there is 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:42.640 a real difference in terms of how the American government 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.080 is essentially built by the people in many ways, where 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.160 we can hold our government accountable and the people who 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.400 make all the decisions rotate through based on voting um. 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.240 And we have free expression, and we have like close 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.200 to a hundred thousand nonprofits, and we have the A 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:58.760 C l U and the e f F, and we 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.600 can sue our government, and you know, there's like a 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.599 lot of investigating journalism. This is like super super different 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.279 from like Belarus or Gabon, where like they don't have 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.080 any of that. So again, I think it's really important 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.280 to draw that distinction. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely. I guess 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.520 I was just saying it's it's it's like the sliding scale. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.640 There's no black and white defining like line that that 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.360 separates well you know that you know there is, but 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.040 there isn't but there is maybe. I mean, if you 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.960 look at the Korean Peninsula, there's a very clear demarcation. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.520 It's very clear line that you can look at from 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.080 at nighttime satellite image which shows literally the difference between 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.600 freedom and dictatorship. On one side, you have a free 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:40.040 country that has a democracy and incredible economic innovation where 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:41.720 they make all the stuff in your pockets and on 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.280 the roads, etcetera. And on the other side you just 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.400 have darkness. So I mean, there are some more of 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.240 these lines around the world. I mean, you could argue 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:51.280 Belarus and Estonia, right and and and there are a 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.320 few others, but you know, arguably, um, it can be, 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.280 it can be. It can be pretty stark. Yeah, I've 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.920 seen the satellite images of that act what you're talking about, 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.520 and it is it is pretty pretty amazing to see it. 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.880 It amazes me when you look back through time and 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.680 you look at you know, from the time we were 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.040 kind of owned as by kings or whatnot, you know, 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.760 in dictatorships and not in all the way today. How 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.800 with the age of information that we have, it just 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.720 seems strange that even today you could be owned by 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.280 a country, right like you you don't have the freedom 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.880 to do what you want or move move as you want. Um. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.280 And uh, a lot of that, I guess a lot 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.760 of that then is the countries want that they just 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.520 want to control and that's why they're trying to utilize 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:42.920 this technology. Yeah, I mean, look, it's evolutionary path. Governments 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.520 have always wanted to have more control over their people, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:51.040 whether in the name of national security, stability, prosperity, you 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:56.000 name it. Um, it's always been a game of uh, 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.440 you know, you know, we need, we need to have 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.079 more power and control to protect you write with dating 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.680 back all the way um to to early societies, right, 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.160 so today it's just it's done with a different kind 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.240 of clothing. Let's put it that way. Um. But even 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.960 as you're saying, even in advanced democracies, we have serious 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.000 concerns over you know, you know, is encryption going to 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.240 be legal? You know, can we have private communications? Um? 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:26.240 And you've got even governments is advanced democratically is England 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.599 in Australia trying to outlaw encryption. So this is a 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.080 struggle that's UM. Struggle for freedom is something that that's 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.520 that's present everywhere. UM. But you know, over hundreds and 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.560 thousands of years, like there has been a pretty amazing 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:46.480 progress made whereby um, compared to a thousand years ago 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.240 when everybody lives under dictatorship, you know, today you can 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.720 you can clearly say like approximately half the world approximately 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.800 you know, you know, three and a half or so 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.720 billion people live under a government that they can sort 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.559 of collectively control, right And that's that's a big difference. UM. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.760 So that's kind of inspiring. So that kind of keeps 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:12.080 us moving forward. So these big decentralizing progressive trends like um, 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.640 like like democracy versus dictatorship, or like the open Internet 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.240 versus uh, you know what we used to have, which 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.600 was like state and elite control of information. These are 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.000 like really really positive trends and and they're pretty undeniable. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.800 And that third one that we want to talk about 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.280 is his money, right, So it is bitcoin. So you know, 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.520 bitcoin is like the culmination of many different kinds of 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:40.439 technologies and methods and mechanisms, but essentially it's given us 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.720 a way to separate money from state and really decentralized 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.679 the means of production of money and access to money 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.520 in a way where anyone can have permission in permissionless 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.719 access to this sort of really intriguing asset. So I 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.840 would like to think of like the political science backdrop 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.760 that we just kind of covered, and like how mankind 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.360 has made progress in areas of like decentralized political power 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.520 or what we would call probably democracy, and also in 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.720 other areas where we've made progress in terms of like 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.120 you know, having the average person have access to almost 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.880 all the information in the world's pretty amazing in the 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.760 form of a smartphone. Um. And then and then we're 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.640 just on the cusp of this third one, which is 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:27.560 like having everyone having access essentially um to bitcoin, which 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.679 is something we've never seen before. Yeah. Yeah, and that's 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.880 what I wanted to jump in and talk about. A 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.280 recent talk that you gave which I watched, was Bitcoin 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.439 versus Big Brother, and um, you know, we're looking at 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:41.880 bitcoin as a technology and how they say, how it 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.880 fixes this? Right? It fixes everything? And I had mentioned 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.080 before we started recording, UM, how I see this race 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.599 of technology where technology working to enslave us versus technology 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.960 that could potentially free us. Um, you kind of talked 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.079 about privacy capitalism and whatnot, and where does bitcoin fit 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.319 into that technology to free us versus the technology to 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.040 slave us? Yeah? Yeah, I was. I was pointing out 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:09.720 a interesting idea to play with, which is, of course, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.280 we've heard of big brother, which is like, you know, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.480 technologically enabled government that can have omission surveillance, right, and 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.120 then we've heard of surveillance capitalism, which is this uh 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:27.840 swiftly growing industry of companies that want to know as 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.600 much about you as possible so that they can make 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:35.320 more money. So why not privacy capitalism? Right? So you 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:40.000 know what could we see? Have we already seen the 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.600 beginning of and will we see more of this idea 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:47.640 of like companies who's who's like product or service is 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.480 to help people protect themselves. So you've already seen a 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.920 lot of this with regard to like encrypted messaging, Like 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.880 the folks who created a signal obviously did well, you know, 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.560 selling selling their tech two you know, different companies. Um, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.920 you've already seen this of course with like you know 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:10.760 obviously bitcoin and bitcoin related technologies and companies regard people 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.800 who want control and privacy over over their financial transactions, 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.880 you have like a v VPN companies maybe for example, Yeah, 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.840 I mean, look, tunnel Bear was sold for four million 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.280 dollars to McAfee. So I mean I just think, like 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.760 if we just fast forward ten twenty years, like, especially 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.439 more wealthy people, I think they're gonna want privacy like right, 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.880 So historically that's why Swiss banks were so appealing. I mean, 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:38.880 for you know, we could argue about the moral reasons, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.160 but like clearly, like there was a business model to 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.600 give financial privacy to wealthy people, like Swiss banks made 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:48.160 a lot of money, right, So you know, now we're 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.680 we're seeing maybe like the ability for perhaps like a 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.880 lot more people than just the ultra high net worth 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.920 and dictators or whatever to be able to protect and 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.600 their communications and privacy. Like we're basically getting like love 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:05.679 this open source, powerful defensive technology that's spreading around the world. 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.680 Like we're kind of being able to democratize the ability 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.400 for people to keep keep things to themselves, which when 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.280 which I think is really really important in the age 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.800 of big brother and surveillance capitalism. So maybe we're we're 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.880 at the beginning of something where we're going to see 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.120 really healthy, profitable industries pop up where we're by products 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.760 and services are are are actually defending people's privacy and 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.080 civil liberties. That would be really neat because I hope. 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.479 I don't think the change is going to come altruistically unfortunately, 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.000 Like I think people are gonna want to, you know, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.120 make money, but maybe maybe maybe they can make money 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:45.800 and help make the word world more private at the 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.320 same time. Yeah, I hope So, I you know, I 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.800 as you said, right like right now, it's a surveillance 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.520 tech and that's something that you know, I've seen people 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.640 talk out about. Kyle Bass is a well known investor, 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.840 and he's been talking about how the US and Wall Street. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.440 Corporate greed is like helping fuel China for the surveillance state, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.640 um and, so like the fact that they're putting their 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.520 money in and bowing down to China only empowers them more, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.320 um and And it's motivated by greed. So hopefully, I 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.720 guess greed could swing to the other side, right, that's 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.840 what you're saying. But those guys know what they're doing. 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.400 I mean, they know exactly what they're doing. And I'm 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.840 willing to bet that they don't want to see what 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.640 they're building in China, uh, you know, in their own 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.640 homes and in their own communities. Right. So at the 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.520 end of the day, all these investors and you know, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.600 corporate titans who are helping build you know, the next 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.680 version of the Great Firewall, they don't want that at home. 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.880 So I think they're quite aware and cognizant of what 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.160 they're doing, and and that's unfortunate, shame on them. But 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.520 there's going to be a thirst and a desire for 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.120 protection mechanisms against the very things that they build. I mean, 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.200 you can't even see this in the like when you 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.640 listen to interviews or talked to you know, the famous 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.760 creators of things like you know, the iPhone or Facebook 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:09.840 or whatever. Oftentimes these people don't even want their kids 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.160 using technology, right. So, I think there's a very powerful 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.840 mechanism here where I think a lot of these people 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.160 know more than they let on, and they know exactly 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.440 what's happening in China. They know what's happening even in 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.720 parts of the free world, and they don't want that 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.520 to happen, like on a personal level, right with their family. 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.520 Right So, I think there is going to be this 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:36.680 desire to protect us against the oncoming on slat of surveillance, 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.280 both from companies and governments, and I think that market 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.360 will only grow. I mean, look, we've got what is it, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.160 eighty million daily active users of Signal. I mean, could 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.480 it be five million and five years maybe? I don't know. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.200 I I like, for example, none of my friends using 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.560 cryptic messaging five years ago. And every day I see 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.480 more people up. This person joined Signal, this person and Signal. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.240 You know you get that little message. Yeah, I've been 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.040 getting a lot of them. And Signals just one of 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.280 of many many messengers that that purport to have encryption. 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.600 But um, I think it's coming, man, I think it's coming. 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.240 That's if the government allow it, right as you as 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.880 you mentioned right like with Australia with their encryption laws, 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.720 so you obviously China won't allow it. Now Australia won't 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.800 allow it, and maybe it goes to the next you 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.240 can you know, it's like the drug. It's like it's like, 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.119 you know, marijuana, Like what are they going to do 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.720 outlaw encryption? Uh, you know, guess what. People are still 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.000 going to use it, like you know, but you know, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.479 like outlawing marijuana was like one of the dumbest policy 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.639 decisions of the century in America and it led to 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:43.920 just disastrous prison system, huge violations of human rights, etcetera. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.320 I don't know that, and it was not effective, Like 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.880 it made marijuana more popular arguably and more expensive. So 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.760 I don't know if banning things like encryption or bitcoin 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.480 are going to lead to like favorable outcomes for governments. Um, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.120 it made the more expensive and more desirable. And because 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.680 they are open source and decentralized and there's no single 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.560 point of failure for this stuff, like you can't kill it. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.040 It's like basically an idea. So governments have to be 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.120 very careful the way that they like approach these things. Yeah, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.000 and with with marijuana, I mean it's a physical thing 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.960 that has to be grown in the space and exactly, 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.439 and that was impossible to eradicate. I mean, now we 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.840 have stuff where you can you can memorize the private 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.120 key to your messages or your bitcoin in your head 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.320 and like around and not have it written down anywhere 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.560 or even you know, on any piece of uh. You 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.560 don't even have to have it on a USB stick 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.119 or on your phone. It can be just in your mind. 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.040 So I think it's you know, the confiscation resistant nature 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:48.000 of bitcoin and the um. Yeah, the more sovereign element 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.520 of some of these encrypted messaging apps is very intriguing. 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:56.240 And and and and I think I think the other 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:57.840 thing is that you know, there has to be a 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.479 need for it. So a lot of times people are like, well, 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.800 we need more option, but like you need you need 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.240 a need for it. And then we're what you see 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.080 in countries with with these problems, you know what's going 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:08.840 on in Hong Kong or I Ran with the bank 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.040 shutdown or Lebanon or whatever. Um, they're pushing the need 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.680 for it. And so we're starting to see in those 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.720 areas the rise of this new technology, like mesh networks, 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.120 as you referenced before, right, So like it's almost like 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.880 they're they're doing our marketing for us, Like hey, here, 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.240 you know, here's a big problem. Go find a solution 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:31.439 for it. Yeah maybe, yeah, maybe I'd like to think so. 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.200 But um, back to that talk you talked about bitcoin 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.760 versus Big Brother. Um, I mean do you think like 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.080 that's like the ultimate tool that we have now because 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.040 it relates to our money and maybe one money is 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.359 our first thing we should control. Well, the point of 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.640 the talk was just to underline how important and financial 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.880 privacy is going to be as we become more digital 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.880 in our lives. Like, um, you know, I still don't 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.800 think people quite understand the importance of how we are 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:02.000 moving from money being the money that we use every 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.800 day being a bearer asset which is anonymous, like you know, 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.919 forty years ago, thirty years ago, whatever, Like anytime you 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.520 made a transaction, it was anonymous, Like the government did 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.520 not know about you know, you you lot something with 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.320 a five dollar bill, and like the merchant doesn't know 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:23.320 your name, your address, your last transaction, your email address, whatever, 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.560 Like they didn't have this big fat identity stack on 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.600 you immediately, like like they do now when never use 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.919 your credit card or touchless pay or whatever. And like 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.720 the logical conclusion of that is something like we chat, 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.360 where like they know like a massive amount of information 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.600 about you. Um. And at the same time they've developed 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.000 like big data analysis, like quote unquote AI technology to 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.040 be able to actually analyze all that data. Like credit 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.119 cards have been around for a long time, but we 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.359 didn't have the AI big data analysis stuff for you know, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.199 companies and governments to really effectively sift through all that 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.760 data and like do predictive analysis and things like that 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.960 until until you know, the fifteen years. So we're in 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.840 a new age and paper money obviously is on the 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:10.360 way out. It's out single digit percentage of all all 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.920 daily transactions in today's world, and in some places like Sweden, 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.160 Urban China, whatever, it's like people don't use cash. Um. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.360 You know, people being born today will never use paper money. Um. 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.240 So we have to think very carefully about digital cash 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.919 and why we need digital cash, And it's because we 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.320 don't want to live in a world where all of 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.160 our behaviors and transactions are spied on and exploited. Yeah, 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.360 it's so powerful, you know, it's like not what I say, 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.840 it's what I do. And what we're doing is spending 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.920 our money. I've seen reports of like Target and their 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.760 big data and how they can analyze purchases and they 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.880 may know when someone's going to become pregnant before they 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.480 even know it. And uh, that's the that's the kind 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.760 of scary stuff that it leads to. Yeah, and and 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.800 I think that look, especially with the red to finance, 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:03.640