1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: this started. Bitcoin is many things too many people. One 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: reason why it's so hard to understand is because there's 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: so many different things that you have to understand to 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: really get it. There's a lot of things that excite 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: me and other people about bitcoin, including making money, of course, 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: which attracts the most people, the ability to have a 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: new money outside of the fed UM, the ability to 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: take away trust from major institutions, and so many other things. 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: But one of the unintended consequences of bitcoin that I 16 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: really am excited about is it's got people to start 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: paying attention. It's got people to pay attention and learn. 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: It's got people interested in things economics, Austrian economics, freedom, 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: human violations and things like that. And it's it's it's 20 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: opened up people's minds. It's it's increased their enthusiasm to learn, 21 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: their curiosity um and you know, one of the things 22 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: that I've really put a lot of attention into over 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, as I've gone further and 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: further into the bitcoin rabbit hole, is um the oppression 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: that that's happening around the world, the human rights violations. 26 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: We're seeing it pop up more than ever right now. 27 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: You know, there's half a dozen countries with one to 28 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: two million people marching and protesting, and it's only getting worse. 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: And today I am sitting down with Alex Gladstein, he's 30 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: the chief strategy officer at the Human Rights Foundation, and 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: we get into talking um a little bit of the 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: talk that he gave about how bitcoin is going against 33 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: helping us fight back against Big Brother and the financial 34 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: rights and how they're human rights and so a really 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: interesting conversation. We dive into into those topics um different 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: countries around the world, what they're facing. We talk about 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: something he likes to call privacy capitalism, which is a 38 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: really interesting topic and UH, anyway, it was a great conversation. 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about bitcoin, uh, financial privacy, privacy, 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: financial sovereignty, and how we can fight back against Big Brother, 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: then UH definitely recommend you listen to let's jump right in. Hello, 42 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, 43 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Alex Gladstein. He is the chief Strategy 44 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: Officer at the Human Rights Foundation as well as faculty 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: at the Singularity University. He's been doing a lot of 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: work in human rights and specifically technology, bitcoin, et cetera 47 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: that can free us, and so I've been looking forward 48 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: to this conversation. Alex, Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: for having me on. Yeah, so, uh, yeah, you know, 50 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: we've had a couple of conversations. I've seen some of 51 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: your videos that you're doing. I love the work that 52 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: you're doing in the in the space that you're doing, 53 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: and I think it's super important for the revolution that 54 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: we're kind of seeing. But for those that don't know 55 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: what you've been doing, want you give us a little 56 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: background on yourself and what you're doing. Sure, So, since 57 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, I've been working for a nonprofit called 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: the Human Rights Foundation, which focuses on promoting civil liberties 59 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: and human rights for people who live under authoritarian regimes. So, 60 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: by our account, that's about uh ninety three countries, four 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: billion people who live under a government that's either a 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: one party state or a kingdom or a dictatorship of 63 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: some kind where there's no real separation of powers, or 64 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: free and fair elections, or free expression or ability to 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: really hold your government accountable or even write an opted 66 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: in a newspaper. These are places where independent media is 67 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: either persecuted or non existent. UM. This ranges from the 68 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: the extremely oppressive like North Korea or Eritrea, all the 69 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: way through countries like China, Vietnam, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, 70 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: it really runs the gamut. So we specialize in helping 71 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: people who live under these very difficult political environments. And 72 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: technology has always been a huge part of this. Whether 73 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: it's by when I first started sending in DVDs to 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: the Cuban Underground Library movement so that Cubans could access 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: stories and narratives that were forbidden, to our work with 76 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: North Korea, where we've smuggled in tens of thousands of 77 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: flash drives and USB sticks and SD cards packed with 78 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 1: movies and films about the outside world. UM to work 79 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: with people who are doing everything from uh mesh networks 80 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: to encrypted communications to you know, using satellites, even to 81 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: expose human rights violations. So technology has always been an 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: interesting tool for good. But then of course we're also 83 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 1: seeing how uh you know, governments like China are using 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: technology to perfect social engineering, and other governments are using 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: technology to shut off the Internet and keep their people isolated. 86 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a two sides of the narrative. 87 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: But I very much believe in technologies that are empowering 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: and decentralizing as as pretty essential to the to the 89 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: future of human rights. Now, when you talk about human rights, 90 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: uh as a whole, categorically, I guess, first of all, 91 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: you talk about ninety three countries, four billion people. I 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,559 Speaker 1: guess even the freest country, America, the Land of the Free, 93 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: is still maybe you know, not totally free. So I 94 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: guess it's like a sliding scale, right, there's no black 95 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: and white. There's like Norway. It's like Norway to North Korea. Right, 96 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: so you've got Norway where like it's pretty much the 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: most open and arguably free country by most metrics, um, 98 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: all the way down to North Korea, which is the 99 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: least open and free. So that, yeah, there's no black 100 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: and white, but but there is actually um something called 101 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: a town square test that the Soviet discident and the 102 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: Tom Sharansky invented where you know, think about it. Can 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: you go to the center of your town or or 104 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: city or village or wherever you live and and and 105 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: criticize the government openly? And you know, for about ninety 106 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: three countries you can't do that, Like, you can't do 107 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: that without risk of getting fired or um, you know, 108 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: without risk of getting kidnapped, killed, etcetera. Here in America, 109 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 1: while I agree that we have many problems, like people 110 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: make a living off making fun of the president, they 111 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: make actually quite a healthy living doing so on many 112 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: different networks. So you know, we have a really vibrant 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: tradition of free expression here which is really really important. 114 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: And this this is the same in many other countries 115 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: around the world, um to different extents, but generally speaking, 116 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: you do need to apply some sort of political science 117 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: rigor to this and actually differentiate. I mean, the sort 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: of people on the internet who compare America to North 119 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: Korea are are wrong, I believe, um. And there is 120 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: a real difference in terms of how the American government 121 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: is essentially built by the people in many ways, where 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: we can hold our government accountable and the people who 123 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: make all the decisions rotate through based on voting um. 124 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: And we have free expression, and we have like close 125 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: to a hundred thousand nonprofits, and we have the A 126 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: C l U and the e f F, and we 127 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: can sue our government, and you know, there's like a 128 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: lot of investigating journalism. This is like super super different 129 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: from like Belarus or Gabon, where like they don't have 130 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: any of that. So again, I think it's really important 131 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: to draw that distinction. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely. I guess 132 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: I was just saying it's it's it's like the sliding scale. 133 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: There's no black and white defining like line that that 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: separates well you know that you know there is, but 135 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: there isn't but there is maybe. I mean, if you 136 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: look at the Korean Peninsula, there's a very clear demarcation. 137 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: It's very clear line that you can look at from 138 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: at nighttime satellite image which shows literally the difference between 139 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: freedom and dictatorship. On one side, you have a free 140 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: country that has a democracy and incredible economic innovation where 141 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: they make all the stuff in your pockets and on 142 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: the roads, etcetera. And on the other side you just 143 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: have darkness. So I mean, there are some more of 144 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: these lines around the world. I mean, you could argue 145 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: Belarus and Estonia, right and and and there are a 146 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: few others, but you know, arguably, um, it can be, 147 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: it can be. It can be pretty stark. Yeah, I've 148 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: seen the satellite images of that act what you're talking about, 149 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: and it is it is pretty pretty amazing to see it. 150 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: It amazes me when you look back through time and 151 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: you look at you know, from the time we were 152 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: kind of owned as by kings or whatnot, you know, 153 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in dictatorships and not in all the way today. How 154 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: with the age of information that we have, it just 155 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: seems strange that even today you could be owned by 156 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: a country, right like you you don't have the freedom 157 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: to do what you want or move move as you want. Um. 158 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: And uh, a lot of that, I guess a lot 159 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: of that then is the countries want that they just 160 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: want to control and that's why they're trying to utilize 161 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: this technology. Yeah, I mean, look, it's evolutionary path. Governments 162 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: have always wanted to have more control over their people, 163 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: whether in the name of national security, stability, prosperity, you 164 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: name it. Um, it's always been a game of uh, 165 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, you know, we need, we need to have 166 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: more power and control to protect you write with dating 167 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: back all the way um to to early societies, right, 168 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: so today it's just it's done with a different kind 169 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: of clothing. Let's put it that way. Um. But even 170 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: as you're saying, even in advanced democracies, we have serious 171 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: concerns over you know, you know, is encryption going to 172 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: be legal? You know, can we have private communications? Um? 173 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: And you've got even governments is advanced democratically is England 174 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 1: in Australia trying to outlaw encryption. So this is a 175 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: struggle that's UM. Struggle for freedom is something that that's 176 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: that's present everywhere. UM. But you know, over hundreds and 177 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: thousands of years, like there has been a pretty amazing 178 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: progress made whereby um, compared to a thousand years ago 179 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: when everybody lives under dictatorship, you know, today you can 180 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: you can clearly say like approximately half the world approximately 181 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, you know, three and a half or so 182 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: billion people live under a government that they can sort 183 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: of collectively control, right And that's that's a big difference. UM. 184 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: So that's kind of inspiring. So that kind of keeps 185 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: us moving forward. So these big decentralizing progressive trends like um, 186 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: like like democracy versus dictatorship, or like the open Internet 187 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: versus uh, you know what we used to have, which 188 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: was like state and elite control of information. These are 189 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: like really really positive trends and and they're pretty undeniable. 190 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: And that third one that we want to talk about 191 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: is his money, right, So it is bitcoin. So you know, 192 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: bitcoin is like the culmination of many different kinds of 193 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: technologies and methods and mechanisms, but essentially it's given us 194 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: a way to separate money from state and really decentralized 195 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: the means of production of money and access to money 196 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: in a way where anyone can have permission in permissionless 197 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 1: access to this sort of really intriguing asset. So I 198 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: would like to think of like the political science backdrop 199 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: that we just kind of covered, and like how mankind 200 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: has made progress in areas of like decentralized political power 201 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: or what we would call probably democracy, and also in 202 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: other areas where we've made progress in terms of like 203 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, having the average person have access to almost 204 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: all the information in the world's pretty amazing in the 205 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: form of a smartphone. Um. And then and then we're 206 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: just on the cusp of this third one, which is 207 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: like having everyone having access essentially um to bitcoin, which 208 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: is something we've never seen before. Yeah. Yeah, and that's 209 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: what I wanted to jump in and talk about. A 210 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: recent talk that you gave which I watched, was Bitcoin 211 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: versus Big Brother, and um, you know, we're looking at 212 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: bitcoin as a technology and how they say, how it 213 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: fixes this? Right? It fixes everything? And I had mentioned 214 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: before we started recording, UM, how I see this race 215 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: of technology where technology working to enslave us versus technology 216 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: that could potentially free us. Um, you kind of talked 217 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: about privacy capitalism and whatnot, and where does bitcoin fit 218 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: into that technology to free us versus the technology to 219 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: slave us? Yeah? Yeah, I was. I was pointing out 220 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: a interesting idea to play with, which is, of course, 221 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: we've heard of big brother, which is like, you know, 222 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: technologically enabled government that can have omission surveillance, right, and 223 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: then we've heard of surveillance capitalism, which is this uh 224 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: swiftly growing industry of companies that want to know as 225 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: much about you as possible so that they can make 226 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: more money. So why not privacy capitalism? Right? So you 227 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: know what could we see? Have we already seen the 228 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: beginning of and will we see more of this idea 229 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: of like companies who's who's like product or service is 230 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: to help people protect themselves. So you've already seen a 231 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: lot of this with regard to like encrypted messaging, Like 232 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: the folks who created a signal obviously did well, you know, 233 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: selling selling their tech two you know, different companies. Um, 234 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: you've already seen this of course with like you know 235 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: obviously bitcoin and bitcoin related technologies and companies regard people 236 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: who want control and privacy over over their financial transactions, 237 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: you have like a v VPN companies maybe for example, Yeah, 238 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean, look, tunnel Bear was sold for four million 239 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: dollars to McAfee. So I mean I just think, like 240 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: if we just fast forward ten twenty years, like, especially 241 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: more wealthy people, I think they're gonna want privacy like right, 242 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: So historically that's why Swiss banks were so appealing. I mean, 243 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: for you know, we could argue about the moral reasons, 244 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: but like clearly, like there was a business model to 245 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: give financial privacy to wealthy people, like Swiss banks made 246 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: a lot of money, right, So you know, now we're 247 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: we're seeing maybe like the ability for perhaps like a 248 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: lot more people than just the ultra high net worth 249 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: and dictators or whatever to be able to protect and 250 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: their communications and privacy. Like we're basically getting like love 251 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: this open source, powerful defensive technology that's spreading around the world. 252 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: Like we're kind of being able to democratize the ability 253 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: for people to keep keep things to themselves, which when 254 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: which I think is really really important in the age 255 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: of big brother and surveillance capitalism. So maybe we're we're 256 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: at the beginning of something where we're going to see 257 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: really healthy, profitable industries pop up where we're by products 258 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: and services are are are actually defending people's privacy and 259 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: civil liberties. That would be really neat because I hope. 260 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,479 Speaker 1: I don't think the change is going to come altruistically unfortunately, 261 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: Like I think people are gonna want to, you know, 262 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: make money, but maybe maybe maybe they can make money 263 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: and help make the word world more private at the 264 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, I hope So, I you know, I 265 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: as you said, right like right now, it's a surveillance 266 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: tech and that's something that you know, I've seen people 267 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: talk out about. Kyle Bass is a well known investor, 268 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: and he's been talking about how the US and Wall Street. 269 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: Corporate greed is like helping fuel China for the surveillance state, 270 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: um and, so like the fact that they're putting their 271 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: money in and bowing down to China only empowers them more, 272 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: um and And it's motivated by greed. So hopefully, I 273 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: guess greed could swing to the other side, right, that's 274 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: what you're saying. But those guys know what they're doing. 275 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they know exactly what they're doing. And I'm 276 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: willing to bet that they don't want to see what 277 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: they're building in China, uh, you know, in their own 278 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: homes and in their own communities. Right. So at the 279 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: end of the day, all these investors and you know, 280 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: corporate titans who are helping build you know, the next 281 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: version of the Great Firewall, they don't want that at home. 282 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: So I think they're quite aware and cognizant of what 283 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: they're doing, and and that's unfortunate, shame on them. But 284 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: there's going to be a thirst and a desire for 285 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: protection mechanisms against the very things that they build. I mean, 286 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: you can't even see this in the like when you 287 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: listen to interviews or talked to you know, the famous 288 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: creators of things like you know, the iPhone or Facebook 289 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: or whatever. Oftentimes these people don't even want their kids 290 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: using technology, right. So, I think there's a very powerful 291 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: mechanism here where I think a lot of these people 292 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: know more than they let on, and they know exactly 293 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: what's happening in China. They know what's happening even in 294 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: parts of the free world, and they don't want that 295 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: to happen, like on a personal level, right with their family. 296 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: Right So, I think there is going to be this 297 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: desire to protect us against the oncoming on slat of surveillance, 298 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: both from companies and governments, and I think that market 299 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: will only grow. I mean, look, we've got what is it, 300 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: eighty million daily active users of Signal. I mean, could 301 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: it be five million and five years maybe? I don't know. 302 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: I I like, for example, none of my friends using 303 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: cryptic messaging five years ago. And every day I see 304 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: more people up. This person joined Signal, this person and Signal. 305 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: You know you get that little message. Yeah, I've been 306 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: getting a lot of them. And Signals just one of 307 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: of many many messengers that that purport to have encryption. 308 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: But um, I think it's coming, man, I think it's coming. 309 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: That's if the government allow it, right as you as 310 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned right like with Australia with their encryption laws, 311 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: so you obviously China won't allow it. Now Australia won't 312 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: allow it, and maybe it goes to the next you 313 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: can you know, it's like the drug. It's like it's like, 314 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: you know, marijuana, Like what are they going to do 315 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: outlaw encryption? Uh, you know, guess what. People are still 316 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: going to use it, like you know, but you know, 317 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 1: like outlawing marijuana was like one of the dumbest policy 318 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: decisions of the century in America and it led to 319 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: just disastrous prison system, huge violations of human rights, etcetera. 320 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that, and it was not effective, Like 321 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: it made marijuana more popular arguably and more expensive. So 322 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if banning things like encryption or bitcoin 323 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: are going to lead to like favorable outcomes for governments. Um, 324 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: it made the more expensive and more desirable. And because 325 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: they are open source and decentralized and there's no single 326 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: point of failure for this stuff, like you can't kill it. 327 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: It's like basically an idea. So governments have to be 328 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: very careful the way that they like approach these things. Yeah, 329 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: and with with marijuana, I mean it's a physical thing 330 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: that has to be grown in the space and exactly, 331 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: and that was impossible to eradicate. I mean, now we 332 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: have stuff where you can you can memorize the private 333 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: key to your messages or your bitcoin in your head 334 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: and like around and not have it written down anywhere 335 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: or even you know, on any piece of uh. You 336 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: don't even have to have it on a USB stick 337 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: or on your phone. It can be just in your mind. 338 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: So I think it's you know, the confiscation resistant nature 339 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: of bitcoin and the um. Yeah, the more sovereign element 340 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: of some of these encrypted messaging apps is very intriguing. 341 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: And and and and I think I think the other 342 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: thing is that you know, there has to be a 343 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 1: need for it. So a lot of times people are like, well, 344 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: we need more option, but like you need you need 345 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: a need for it. And then we're what you see 346 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: in countries with with these problems, you know what's going 347 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: on in Hong Kong or I Ran with the bank 348 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: shutdown or Lebanon or whatever. Um, they're pushing the need 349 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: for it. And so we're starting to see in those 350 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: areas the rise of this new technology, like mesh networks, 351 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: as you referenced before, right, So like it's almost like 352 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: they're they're doing our marketing for us, Like hey, here, 353 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, here's a big problem. Go find a solution 354 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: for it. Yeah maybe, yeah, maybe I'd like to think so. 355 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: But um, back to that talk you talked about bitcoin 356 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: versus Big Brother. Um, I mean do you think like 357 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: that's like the ultimate tool that we have now because 358 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: it relates to our money and maybe one money is 359 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: our first thing we should control. Well, the point of 360 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: the talk was just to underline how important and financial 361 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: privacy is going to be as we become more digital 362 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: in our lives. Like, um, you know, I still don't 363 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: think people quite understand the importance of how we are 364 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: moving from money being the money that we use every 365 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: day being a bearer asset which is anonymous, like you know, 366 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: forty years ago, thirty years ago, whatever, Like anytime you 367 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: made a transaction, it was anonymous, Like the government did 368 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: not know about you know, you you lot something with 369 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: a five dollar bill, and like the merchant doesn't know 370 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: your name, your address, your last transaction, your email address, whatever, 371 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: Like they didn't have this big fat identity stack on 372 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: you immediately, like like they do now when never use 373 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: your credit card or touchless pay or whatever. And like 374 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: the logical conclusion of that is something like we chat, 375 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: where like they know like a massive amount of information 376 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: about you. Um. And at the same time they've developed 377 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: like big data analysis, like quote unquote AI technology to 378 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: be able to actually analyze all that data. Like credit 379 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: cards have been around for a long time, but we 380 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: didn't have the AI big data analysis stuff for you know, 381 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: companies and governments to really effectively sift through all that 382 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: data and like do predictive analysis and things like that 383 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: until until you know, the fifteen years. So we're in 384 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: a new age and paper money obviously is on the 385 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: way out. It's out single digit percentage of all all 386 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: daily transactions in today's world, and in some places like Sweden, 387 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: Urban China, whatever, it's like people don't use cash. Um. 388 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: You know, people being born today will never use paper money. Um. 389 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: So we have to think very carefully about digital cash 390 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: and why we need digital cash, And it's because we 391 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: don't want to live in a world where all of 392 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: our behaviors and transactions are spied on and exploited. Yeah, 393 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: it's so powerful, you know, it's like not what I say, 394 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: it's what I do. And what we're doing is spending 395 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: our money. I've seen reports of like Target and their 396 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: big data and how they can analyze purchases and they 397 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: may know when someone's going to become pregnant before they 398 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: even know it. And uh, that's the that's the kind 399 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: of scary stuff that it leads to. Yeah, and and 400 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: I think that look, especially with the red to finance, 401 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: like you're spend and says more about you than your words. Right, 402 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: So if I want to find you, I want to 403 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: know what your bank account is, not necessarily you know 404 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: what you're going on social media. So it's kind of 405 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: like the truth about you is your is your spending habits? Right, 406 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, we want to keep that stuff private. And look, 407 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not actually anywhere close to being 408 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: like an anarchist or anything. I believe in good governance. 409 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: But I think we as a society to have like 410 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: negotiations and compromises where like we compromise the people using 411 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: technologies at their lever you know, we force a compromise 412 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: whereby and and this is legal and moral precedent, where 413 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: money under a certain amount of value um per day 414 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: transactions could be anonymous and the government would just have 415 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: to sort of be okay with that. So for example, 416 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: like you can think of gift cards today as as 417 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: a really good like precedent both technologically morally legally, I 418 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: can walk into a store and by several hundred dollars 419 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: of gift cards with cash, and then I can go 420 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: buy stuff on the internet completely anonymously, right, um, if 421 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: I want to, I mean, maybe I have to enter 422 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: in you know, data and things like that to buy things, 423 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: But generally speaking, you can pay for certain things without 424 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: divulging your information using gift cards, which is which is 425 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: pretty amazing. So the US government has no problem with that, 426 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: like and that that's something we want to read sort 427 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: of encourage them to continue to not have a problem 428 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: with I mean, really like from a legal perspective, what 429 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about, like bitcoin transactions being as seamless as 430 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: gift cards, like using stuff like lightning, perhaps if that 431 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: becomes more mature and usable again legally and morally, wouldn't 432 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: be very different from from using gift cards, right, And 433 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: a huge, very large population of the US uses gift cards. 434 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean something of the US people are are underbanked right, 435 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: So a lot of industic cards anyway, So I don't know, 436 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: we need to like, you know, start having this debate, 437 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: um and just I think this is why groups like 438 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: coin Center are important. Um. You know, in addition to 439 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: developing the technology, we we need to you know, have 440 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: these conversations with politicians and try to encourage them to, um, 441 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: to not take art rights and freedoms away. And sometimes 442 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: it may work. Look, it may work in America. I mean, 443 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: it certainly may not. It's certainly not going to work 444 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: in China. But look, we have a system and a 445 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: and a culture where we could incredibly say like cash 446 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: is like an American value right in privacies and American value, 447 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: and it's literally literally in our constitution. So um, I 448 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: think that even though we've seen all this stuff being 449 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: ben on earth to snowed in et cetera, lately, I 450 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: think there's a chance that we can have some sort 451 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: of like social compromise in a place like America. But 452 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: you know what, like zero chances that happening in China, right, 453 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: or in Saudi Arabia or in any other dictatorship. So 454 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: that's why it's kind of like regardless of the legal 455 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: moral situation, the tech is has just got to be 456 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: built and you know what, it exists and it's not 457 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: possible to stop. So at least that's exciting. Yeah. The 458 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: problem that the United States has is that the United 459 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: States has the benefit of being the world's reserve currency. 460 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: So they really have everything to lose. And that's what 461 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: we've seen in Congress, as you know, Red Brad Sherman's 462 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: talked about many times, like we lose the ability to 463 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: uh do sanctions and things like that. And so the US, 464 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: while yeah, being built on free grounds or whatever, has 465 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: the most Yeah, yeah, but that may not you don 466 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: don't take that for granted. I just read this brilliant book. 467 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: Um it's called them Handibles M A N D I 468 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: B L E. S highly recommended to all your listeners 469 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: as a as a holiday gift. It has nothing to 470 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: do with bitcoin, but it basically tells the story of 471 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: a near futured US where um, the dollar basically fails, 472 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: where like a nationalist government, um ronez is on on 473 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: our on our debt and treasury, you know, crash and 474 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: the rest of the world creates a currency called bancor 475 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: inspired by what Keenes had come up with at the 476 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: at the Bretton Wood Summit, right, And you know, I 477 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: won't give away more than that, but it's so fascinating 478 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: because it walks you through what a monetary crash and 479 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: what hyper inflation would would look like in America where 480 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: where by you know our friends and men as well, 481 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: and they know exactly what it looks like. It's a 482 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: total disaster. But I feel like a lot of Americans 483 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: may struggle to connect with that because they're just assuming 484 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: that the dollar will always be mighty, right, Well, it 485 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: may not be right, you think, even it would not 486 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: be crazy to say that, Like there could be a 487 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: crazy fatal dollar event in the next decade, right, so 488 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: this one happens to to take place in right, so 489 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: this could happen, So you know, with that in mind, 490 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: like people need to think about how assets work and 491 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: how savings works, even just for their own families. Like 492 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: a big theme of the Mandibles book is that even 493 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: wealthy people, they all get wiped out because all their 494 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: assets are like controlled by banks or like dollar denominated 495 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: or like it's just not like and and when the 496 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: news hits um if there's a big moment, like when 497 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: when the news hits in Argentina, or Lebanon, there's going 498 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: to be like bank controls or whatever. You don't have 499 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: a lot of time, Like you know, you've got no time, 500 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: so you're you're your toast, right, So maybe that money 501 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: that's in that savings account or dollar denominated whatever savings 502 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: account of some kind you have, or you have pension 503 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: or whatever you have. You know, if that's going to 504 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: continue to be denominated in a currency which is crashing, 505 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: then you're screwed, right, So you need to think about 506 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: other kinds of assets. And that's what makes bitcoin so 507 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: compelling is because it's a permissionless asset that anyone can access. 508 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: Anyone can buy whatever amount a dollar or five dollars 509 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: fifty cents um. They don't need to be wealthy. Um. 510 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: It's like the great equalizer. Anyone can access a small 511 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: amount of bitcoin or a large amount, but they can 512 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: like take their time and energy and turn it into 513 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: an asset that cannot be devalued by government in any situation. 514 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: And that's like really really incredible to me. So if 515 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: you think about like the way that uh, poorer people 516 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: save around the world, like they do things like they 517 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: buy cows or sheet metal, and these things are very 518 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: liquid and and they're hurt to trade. I mean, now, 519 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean, this is such an upgrade. I mean, all 520 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: they need is a phone and internet access and they 521 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: can activate. They can own an asset and own the 522 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: private key to an asset that cannot be devalued. Now, 523 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: of course it's going to be quite volatile for a 524 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: long time, but it has to be volatile that vultility 525 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: goes up. Man, I mean, this is a one way 526 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: of altility. So over time, so you know, we've gone 527 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: from dollars to tens of dollars, two hundreds of dollars 528 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: to thousands of dollars. Rights it's going that way right now, 529 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: up to tens of thousands of dollars. So I think, um, 530 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: it's just kind of an exciting innovation and it comes 531 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: to the right time. It's very ironic that it was 532 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: born in two line, and I think bitcoin, both for 533 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: privacy and also in the face of economic stability, will 534 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: be a very very important phenomenon moving forward. Yeah, that 535 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I was saying. Where now, with 536 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: with all these things we're seeing happening around the world, 537 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: it's almost like they're just pushing people to this stuff. 538 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious though, to draw back to what you're mainly 539 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: working on, which is, you know, working with people under 540 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: human rights foundations or violations, I should say, And it 541 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: seems like, you know what, today there's half a dozen 542 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: countries kind of erupting and whatnot, and we're seeing starting 543 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: to see human rights violation is happening more and more. 544 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: But you're talking about this all the time, Like, are 545 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: you I guess, are you trying to get like regular 546 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: people like in the United States to be aware of 547 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: that so they can help you guys provide resources to that. Yeah. 548 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: I mean, look, we're we're a charity, so we UM 549 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: only can do what we do because of the generosity 550 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: of our donors, and generally speaking, our supporters tend to 551 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: be people who appreciate freedom, who either live in a 552 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: free society or they've like escaped from a closed or 553 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: closing society, right UM, and they want to through h RAF, 554 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: help people who who aren't as fortunate, let's put it 555 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: that way. And the reason why, the reason why I 556 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: wanted to ask that is trying to get people involved 557 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: to care about human rights violations, and I want to 558 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: be involved, I would imagine, especially, Yes, it's hard because 559 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: everything is so good here, I can't imagine it never 560 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: being bad. They don't care, And maybe there's some correlation 561 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: with that with talking to people about bitcoin the same way. 562 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: We're like, well I don't see that problem. I don't care. Well, 563 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: here's the thing, um, bitcoins and game changer. Uh, it's 564 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: very difficult to get people to care about human rights. 565 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,719 Speaker 1: You're right, because there's no you know, you don't get 566 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: anything in return. Right, it's um, you have to have 567 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: like extremely like low time prefer is thinking generally to 568 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: to want to support human rights because it's something that 569 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: takes a long time to manifest the fruits. Um. But 570 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: generally speaking, it was hard for me to talk about 571 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: things like privacy and freedom, um pre bitcoin harder now 572 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: now that like people are intrigued because everybody is interested 573 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: in money right in price and all these things. It 574 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: is really interesting because it does allow me to, for example, 575 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: come on a show like yours, where like if bitcoin 576 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: didn't exist, you, I mean, I'm just guessing probably less 577 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: interested in talking about human rights. All of a sudden 578 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: we've had this definitely half an hour conversation about freedom 579 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: and human rights. Like it just it's a game changer 580 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: from that respect, because it is the intersection of money 581 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 1: and profit and value and freedom and human rights. Right. 582 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: So that's why bitcoin is such a interesting game changer here. 583 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: And I'm just trying to rely on it and use 584 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: it and understand it in a way that can help 585 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: protect and and and defend people's freedoms which are at risk. 586 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: And I think it's a it's a real asset, not 587 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: not just physically technically, you know, economically, but also educationally definitely. 588 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. I've said that a lot of times. 589 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: One of the biggest things about bitcoin, even if it 590 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: didn't succeed, is that it's got people to want to 591 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: learn more, ask questions and pay attention to these things, 592 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: as you're saying, because yeah, you're right, I probably wouldn't 593 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: be near as interested in human rights violations and and 594 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: things like this if I wasn't paying attention to bitcoin. So, UM, 595 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: I guess an unintended consequence, that's very good, all right, Well, UM, 596 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: that's good stuff. UM. I think I think we can 597 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: kind of wrap it up and wrap it up on that. 598 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: Um Again, like I said, I know you're doing the 599 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: work on human rights violation or violations right through the foundation. 600 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: Um you said it's it's mainly through donors and whatnot. 601 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: So where do people learn more about that? Yeah? They can. 602 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: They can check out hr F dot org or follow 603 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at hr f UM contact me on 604 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: Twitter at Gladstein G L A D S T E 605 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: I n UM. I. Also, if people are interested more 606 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: about the sort of political, economic background and impact of bitcoin, 607 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: I I wrote a book this summer with a few 608 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: other really interesting co authors from around the world, called 609 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: The Little Bitcoin Book, which is on Amazon. It's a 610 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: short read, a hundred pages. Also probably makes for a 611 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: fun holiday gift. Umi, was that was that with Jimmy Song? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 612 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: Jimmy Song and Elena ran Nova and Lily lou and 613 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of others. So um it's it's um Louis Bendventura, 614 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: Timmy as You, Boullier, Alex Lloyd, um All hundred my shadow. 615 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: It was fun. We we got together and and tried 616 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: to put why we why we think bitcoin matters into 617 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: a short kind of long I guess, like a short 618 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: book or a very long essay. So people can check 619 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 1: that out. It's got pretty good reviews, so UM check 620 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: us out at HTRF. Check out the book. Um, and 621 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: let's stay in touch. All right, Alex, thanks for taking 622 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: the time. Appreciate all the hard work that you're putting 623 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: into UH to bring awareness to this stuff. My pleasure. 624 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: All right. Hey, if you like this episode of The 625 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: Market Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the 626 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: top of the podcast charts. Just please do me a 627 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: favor and rate, review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to 628 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: just leave a quick review goes a long way and 629 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: helping us reach more people and disrupt more markets. I 630 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: really appreciate you listening and I'll see you next time 631 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: on The Market Disruptors Podcast.