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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 2: This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Chelsea Gooden. She is

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Speaker 2: an author, screenwriter, and keynote speaker, and you can get

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Speaker 2: her book that's out now, Underestimated the Wisdom and Power

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Speaker 2: of Teenage Girls. Let's get her on. Hi. Hey, where

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Speaker 2: are you podcasting from?

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Speaker 1: I'm in La.

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Speaker 2: You're in La? Okay? Are you born and raised in La?

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Speaker 2: Or what's your thing?

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Speaker 1: I'm from Colorado and then I went to college in

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Speaker 1: NYU and then came right out to La. I've been

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Speaker 1: here a long a long time, all right.

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Speaker 2: So you have a book out called Underestimated the Wisdom

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Speaker 2: and Power of Teenage Girls, And I'm I'm very excited

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Speaker 2: to talk to you because my daughter's only eight. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I've already started to go, oh, dear, like

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Speaker 2: those those teenage years, right because I remember how I

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Speaker 2: was as a teen, but then also the things that

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Speaker 2: I didn't also have all the technology that teens have now,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm just I feel very not equipped right now.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, I feel like I need to get

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Speaker 2: on reading books like this experience like this.

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Speaker 1: Book will you will love it so much? Like I

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Speaker 1: feel really confident, saying that it's kind of it's such

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Speaker 1: an it's an easy read too, and that I make

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Speaker 1: it really accessible for you to kind of find your

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Speaker 1: way into feeling good and confident about this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, give the elevator pitch then for this book.

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Speaker 1: This is a book that by the way, I integrated

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Speaker 1: teenage girls voices at every step of this book. They

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Speaker 1: helped choose the chapter titles, they are quoted, They helped

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Speaker 1: edit like they the I am their portal and microphone

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Speaker 1: of what they want to say to the world. That's

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Speaker 1: what I'm here to do. And by us listening to

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Speaker 1: them and what they have to say is what's going

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Speaker 1: to improve our connections and our way to empower their voice,

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Speaker 1: for them to step into their full confidence. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's a different dynamic in the past where it's like

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Speaker 1: a parenting book that let me give you the secrets

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Speaker 1: on what to do to make your daughter do what

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Speaker 1: you want. You know, it's not like that. It's actually

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Speaker 1: about how do we listen to the girls and best

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Speaker 1: support them stepping into their voice and their power. And

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Speaker 1: part of that is taking away a lot of our

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Speaker 1: own personal triggers in charge around these wounds that you

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Speaker 1: just said, like we have in our teenage years. So

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Speaker 1: many of those wounds happen in our teenage years and

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Speaker 1: we carry them into womanhood. And what if instead we

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Speaker 1: helped girls not have that happen to them in their

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Speaker 1: teenage years. I feel like we could change the trajectory

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Speaker 1: for women in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it says here too in your bio.

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Speaker 2: For sixteen years you worked as an academic tutor and

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Speaker 2: mentor specializing in the powerment of teenage girls. What did

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Speaker 2: you see primarily within teenage girls when you were working

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Speaker 2: with them so closely? Like, what was there? What was

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Speaker 2: their biggest asset? And then was something they were like

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Speaker 2: it was tough for them to overcome?

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Speaker 1: Right, So, one of the biggest things that I can

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Speaker 1: communicate as an overall thing is that teenage girls feel

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Speaker 1: judged and misunderstood. And so what they have as an

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Speaker 1: asp set is that they have these big feelings that

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Speaker 1: we often as a society dismiss and stereotype as emotional

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Speaker 1: and dramatic and mean and crazy. And what happens is

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Speaker 1: is we're actually squashing they're very natural, beautiful, wise spirit

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Speaker 1: by kind of trying to put them in this perfect

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Speaker 1: likable box that all women should be in, and they're

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Speaker 1: actually quite powerful and deep, and that's what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Why it's wisdom on the title, and we are underestimating

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Speaker 1: what they have to offer. So you know, what's kind

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Speaker 1: of going wrong is how we as a society are judging, squashing, fearing,

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Speaker 1: trying to control and what they're natural who they naturally are.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of it is actually just loving them

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Speaker 1: exactly where they're at. So why after sixteen years of

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Speaker 1: working with them is honestly just time after time of

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Speaker 1: them saying beautifully wise things to me that I was like,

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, the world needs to hear this. They're

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Speaker 1: underestimating you.

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Speaker 2: What do you think they're underestimate? Is it the age

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Speaker 2: piece or is it like, oh, you don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a definitely like brush off, dismiss minimi, ooh

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Speaker 1: you don't know, or it's just like flighty teenage girl interests.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at their support of Taylor Swift and Barbie.

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Speaker 1: I mean they are powerful force their enthusiasm and love

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Speaker 1: for things and so, but also they're underestimated in how

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Speaker 1: much they see going on in the world and how

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Speaker 1: they are ready for more mature conversations, so to like honesty.

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Speaker 1: One of the chapters is Radical Honesty. Teenage girls are

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Speaker 1: so good at cutting to the truth of things, but

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Speaker 1: people are very not real with them. They try to

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Speaker 1: put on a show just like, oh, it's fine, and

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Speaker 1: they can really see when someone's not being real with them,

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Speaker 1: and they can handle these types of conversations about topics

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Speaker 1: like sexuality or social media or beauty, these things that

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Speaker 1: oftentimes everyone's just like, so scared. Social media is destroying them,

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Speaker 1: so scared. The beauty industry is destroying them. And yes,

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Speaker 1: there are harmful things going on, but the girls want

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Speaker 1: to be a part of the conversation. They want to

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Speaker 1: be a part of the solution, and that's where we're

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Speaker 1: underestimating their voice and participation in the solution.

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Speaker 2: So do you have kids.

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Speaker 1: I don't, which actually has helped me be welcomed into

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Speaker 1: this very rare space of trust with the girls. Lots

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Speaker 1: of times they're always like, well, you just don't have

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Speaker 1: parental vibes. So that's why I can share these things

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Speaker 1: with you, right, So it is a little I definitely

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Speaker 1: have some access that a parent might not, and that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm trying to really kind of share with having

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Speaker 1: had that access, what I can offer everybody. That being said,

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Speaker 1: I offer super practical tools in the book too for

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Speaker 1: a parent to better connect with and understand their teenage daughter.

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Speaker 1: And those are tools that I've seen work for parent, nonparent, anybody.

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Speaker 1: It's a kind of there are tools that can be

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Speaker 1: used for anyone.

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Speaker 2: Right, what do you think are the biggest tools for

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Speaker 2: like Catherine for example, she has a teenage daughter, she

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Speaker 2: got teenage kids. You know again, eventually, you know, me

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Speaker 2: and Chris and our girls will you know, grow to

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Speaker 2: be teenager. So it's what's what do you think of

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Speaker 2: the biggest tools and tips for parents? Because I feel

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Speaker 2: like I keep seeing that one meme where where they're

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Speaker 2: just it's like fighting with my child's like fighting with

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Speaker 2: myself because you're the same person, just a different age.

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Speaker 2: So it's what do you what are some of the

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Speaker 2: tips and tools that you do put in the book well.

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Speaker 1: To actually first address what you just said again that

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Speaker 1: kind of comes back to our own teenage girl and

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Speaker 1: her teenage girl wounds. I find the more we can

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Speaker 1: heal those for ourself, the more you're going to come

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Speaker 1: to your child with less charge less triggers, and then

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Speaker 1: you can come to her. And this is the key

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Speaker 1: is judgment free tone, genuine curiosity, meeting her exactly where

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Speaker 1: she's at, with no hidden agenda of something you want

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Speaker 1: her to do or control. And because the girl will

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Speaker 1: feel that secret agenda, she'll feel it and the walls

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Speaker 1: will go up. So the whole key is not to

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Speaker 1: have her walls go up and have this true, honest,

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Speaker 1: open dialogue and connection. So another big tool, it's so simple,

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Speaker 1: is phrase everything as a question. So instead of kind

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Speaker 1: of just saying what's going on, ask be like, well,

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Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that? How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about that? What do you think the solution is? How

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Speaker 1: would you like to handle it? Phrase it all like

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Speaker 1: a question, because then she feels her voices respected, that

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Speaker 1: she can be part of. You're also activating her sense

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Speaker 1: of agency, which makes these solutions more effective anyway. And

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Speaker 1: you know this is a process though, because sometimes a

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Speaker 1: girl will respond like I don't know, and that's not

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Speaker 1: a bad sign. Actually when she's saying I don't know,

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Speaker 1: she needs to also develop this starting to ask herself,

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Speaker 1: check in with herself and be like, wait, what are

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Speaker 1: my needs right now? How do I want to handle this?

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Speaker 1: What would be the best way? And we need to

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Speaker 1: give space and room for a girl to figure that

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Speaker 1: out on her own, and instead we're coming in trying

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Speaker 1: to fix advice, slap positivity on it too fast, and

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Speaker 1: these teenage girls can handle the space of coming up

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Speaker 1: with solutions. So communication technique phrase things like a question

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Speaker 1: your tone. Also, anytime you are going to talk about

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Speaker 1: serious things with your say, teenage daughter or any daughter,

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Speaker 1: making sure she feels heard first before you come in

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Speaker 1: with any thoughts. And then if you are going to

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Speaker 1: offer thoughts and advice, you always ask like, hey, do

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Speaker 1: you want my thoughts on this? And you always involve

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Speaker 1: consent in this type of dynamic. But most of the time,

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Speaker 1: when a girl is sharing really hard feelings, big feelings

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Speaker 1: that often scare parents because you know, you don't want

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Speaker 1: to see your kid in pain, and that's why they

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Speaker 1: come in fast to try to fix it. But when

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Speaker 1: a girl's sharing big feelings, usually all she really needs

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Speaker 1: is just to be listened to, and you just reflect

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Speaker 1: back like yeah, that sucks, Yeah, that that does sound awful,

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Speaker 1: makes sense you'd feel that way, And then her whole

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Speaker 1: body relaxes and she's like, oh my gosh, thanks, No

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Speaker 1: one understood where I was coming from. And it's that

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Speaker 1: simple usually.

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Speaker 2: Right, What about for the kids that have or for

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Speaker 2: the girls that have a hard time opening up? Like

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Speaker 2: you know, I've already noticed that a little bit with

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Speaker 2: my daughter too, where I'm like, you know, we always

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Speaker 2: we do our you know, hides and lows of the

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Speaker 2: day at the dinner table, and you know, she opens

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Speaker 2: up there. But I also think that, you know, she

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Speaker 2: has a way she just wants to be like, no,

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Speaker 2: everything's great. I like, everything's happy, and you know this

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Speaker 2: this is good. What I'm like, are you sure? Because

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Speaker 2: you seem sad or and maybe that's my own projection,

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Speaker 2: but is there for the girls that have a hard

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Speaker 2: time because maybe they're embarrassed or they don't want to

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Speaker 2: say that they felt left out, or like how do

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Speaker 2: you open that dialogue?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, lots of times

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Speaker 1: this is laying foundations of trust and communication and that

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Speaker 1: it sounds good, like how you just phrase that as

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Speaker 1: a question where you're just checking in right, and less

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Speaker 1: times they do need some space sometimes, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: a natural part of this age is finding their independence

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Speaker 1: away from their parents. So space isn't always a bad thing,

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Speaker 1: but I find that girls have so much pressure on

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Speaker 1: them to be this perfect, likable, like you know, everything's great,

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Speaker 1: like making sure everyone around them knows they're good and

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Speaker 1: they're great. And it's a dynamic that carries into womanhood

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Speaker 1: with people pleasing and perfectionism, and that I find the

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Speaker 1: more we can affirm a kid, really there's a whole

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Speaker 1: chapter called compliments how we affirm in a different way

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Speaker 1: where we are acknowledging really specifically what makes them special.

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Speaker 1: And I'm even going to use the word weird because

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Speaker 1: a lot of girls are worried about being normal and

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Speaker 1: perfect and when we start actually giving a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy to what makes them unique. And I sometimes don't

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Speaker 1: always use the word unique because it sounds like achievement

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Speaker 1: focused or special, I actually mean weird in a positive

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Speaker 1: way because that's a really helpful portal into their authenticity,

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Speaker 1: like who they authentically are. Because when they start connecting

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Speaker 1: to their weirdness and authenticity, that's when they start kind

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Speaker 1: of let opening up in a way that feels more

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Speaker 1: safe to them. Right, And so you affirm that like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I just noticed that you crack that weird joke about

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Speaker 1: that person, Like I kind of point out really specific

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Speaker 1: moments that I think it's funny and cool with something

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Speaker 1: they did, and it helps them feel seen in a

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Speaker 1: really specific way. That that part of them grows when

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Speaker 1: they feel seen and understood. And so again it's a process,

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Speaker 1: but it's about how you affirm. To me, that's been

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Speaker 1: my experience is affirming that weirdness uniqueness is what helps

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Speaker 1: them find their more unique voice and feeling like they

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Speaker 1: can step into a conversation without having to be worried

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Speaker 1: about saying the right thing. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does for sure. What's one of your

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Speaker 2: favorite chapters in your book that you really felt like

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Speaker 2: they because, like you said, like these are girls voices,

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Speaker 2: so that they really were like wow, you're proud of

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Speaker 2: them to be that open and vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, well, just to name a few of the

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Speaker 1: chapters so people can get an idea, it's like perfection,

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Speaker 1: people pleasing, self doubt, shame, beauty, like all kind of

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Speaker 1: struggles we all face and humanity in general. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the shame chapter, I think it really reveals just how

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Speaker 1: much shame happens is inflicted on us in our teenage

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Speaker 1: years for women in particular, and how that shame is

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Speaker 1: really held into adulthood. And so girls were very vulnerable

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Speaker 1: and sharing that part of their life with me and

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Speaker 1: with this book. And then but I'm really also very

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Speaker 1: proud of the power chapter, the last chapter where they

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Speaker 1: share their just vision of a better future. That's another

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Speaker 1: thing too, is the more we can empower them and

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Speaker 1: the way they want to be, the way we're going

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Speaker 1: to we're going to change the world actually, and how

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Speaker 1: we power has been so historically represented by domination, oppression,

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Speaker 1: self interest, status, wealth, these kind of masculine narratives because

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Speaker 1: historically men have been empowered in so many ways. So

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Speaker 1: what they I asked the girls, you know, if what

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Speaker 1: if what would the world look like if the majority

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Speaker 1: of the women, the leaders in the world were women,

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Speaker 1: What would it look like? And their responses were incredible.

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Speaker 1: What they envisioned for us, you know, has to do

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Speaker 1: with equality and generosity and love and care and empathy

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Speaker 1: and all these qualities that aren't seen as powerful. But

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Speaker 1: that's what they would consider to be a leadership style,

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Speaker 1: a feminine leadership style that would inspire them. And that

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Speaker 1: to me got me really excited and then they also

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Speaker 1: shared very much what they feel liberation means to them,

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Speaker 1: to feel like liberated so they can be their authentic self,

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Speaker 1: so they can step into their power. And when they

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Speaker 1: shared that, you know, I do tons of quotes of

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Speaker 1: just them sharing what liberation means to them. And these

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Speaker 1: are girls from very diverse backgrounds, diverse ethnicity, the abilities, everything,

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Speaker 1: and it was all about some type of external thing

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Speaker 1: telling them that they can't be who they want to be.

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Speaker 1: There's so many should they should be this, they should

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Speaker 1: look like this, they should do this, and all they

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Speaker 1: want to do is just be themselves and whatever their

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Speaker 1: authentic self is. And that was really how vulnerably they

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Speaker 1: shared those thoughts too, was amazing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it is. I think. I think I

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Speaker 2: fear a lot with social media now in the hands

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Speaker 2: of girls. And you know, there's someone that I know

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Speaker 2: around that fourteen fifteen age and I'm like, why did

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Speaker 2: she filter her face and her body that like, I

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Speaker 2: know she filtered because I'm very close to this girl,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, and it broke my heart because I'm

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Speaker 2: like I then thought of my daughter and was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't want her filtering her body and doing body

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Speaker 2: editors and you know, changing her face with filters because

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Speaker 2: she's beautiful, like she doesn't need a smaller nose or this,

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Speaker 2: that and the other. And so I can't imagine living

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Speaker 2: in the world now that teenage girls live in with

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Speaker 2: the accessibility to completely change their look on social media

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Speaker 2: because that's what they think looks better, and that's already

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Speaker 2: then saying well, then you don't have a good like

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Speaker 2: then you your self confidence is low about how you

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Speaker 2: actually look. You're just trying to look like all these

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Speaker 2: other girls. So is there does your book touch on

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Speaker 2: social media at all?

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Speaker 1: Yes, there's an entire media chapter, and there's an entire

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Speaker 1: beauty chapter, and I yes, I understand that worry and

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Speaker 1: that fear, and it's completely reasonable. Of course, it is

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Speaker 1: a really hard terrain to navigate, and I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: offer some ways into it in a way that acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the fact that social media is not going anywhere. And

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Speaker 1: so as much fear and worry both understandable, there is

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Speaker 1: I talk about it in the chapter. I'm like, we

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Speaker 1: can't fully villainize it, and quite a few futile war

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Speaker 1: against it. We actually have to be asking the girls

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Speaker 1: and including them in this conversation in a big, big way.

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Speaker 1: So and thankfully, you know, even at eight years old,

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Speaker 1: your daughter is a great age to start talking about

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Speaker 1: these things because the sooner you can lay these foundations,

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Speaker 1: the better. But it's again respecting their thoughts on it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I often would pull I have I'm

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Speaker 1: hanging out looking at social media with girls a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I'll be like, well, okay, what do you think

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Speaker 1: of this image? Do you think it's filtered? Like to filter?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that? Where I'm actually just asking, no judgment,

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Speaker 1: no agenda, what her thoughts are, so that she can

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Speaker 1: start forming what she thinks about it and we can

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Speaker 1: actually be in a safe place to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And so I'll be like, wait, so what motivated you

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Speaker 1: to add that filter? Like what made you feel good

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Speaker 1: about doing that? What made you feel weird about doing that?

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Speaker 1: Like I'll just again phrase everything as a question with

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Speaker 1: just genuine curiosity. And girls are great at talking about

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Speaker 1: these things with me. It can be maybe harder for

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Speaker 1: a mother daughter dynamic if you're coming in at like

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Speaker 1: age sixteen doing that, but I actually find that you

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Speaker 1: can lay foundations pretty early if you're really respecting her thoughts.

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Speaker 1: So let's say she does say a smart thought like, well,

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Speaker 1: I think that's kind of dumb how she added that filter, Like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm so smart of you to think

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Speaker 1: of that. You know, you affirm them as smart and

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Speaker 1: capable of handling this terrain because the more you trust them,

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Speaker 1: the more they're going to trust themselves. But you have

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Speaker 1: to communicate that trust, and it's tense at first because

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Speaker 1: you're not like sure because it's scary, right, But there

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Speaker 1: where you can vocalize trust, the more they're going to

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Speaker 1: take that really seriously and they'll be like, Okay, my

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Speaker 1: parents trust me to handle this, to navigate this in

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Speaker 1: a healthy way. So I often ask girls too, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think is a healthy amount of time

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Speaker 1: on social media? And I involve them in that decision too.

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Speaker 1: I don't you never force the choices on them, right,

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Speaker 1: make them have consent in the process.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I like that. Okay, I think that's good,

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Speaker 2: even just with all things like their iPads and because

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Speaker 2: I just I loathe the iPads and like no go outside,

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Speaker 2: like and it's a struggle with when the kids are

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Speaker 2: in different houses, because some things are allowed this house

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Speaker 2: for us, the other house. And so it's like, Mommy

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Speaker 2: is not okay that you sit there and watch your

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Speaker 2: iPad all day. It's just like go outside like their

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Speaker 2: or play or color or let's play a game together.

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Speaker 2: And so it's that piece is kind of a struggle

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Speaker 2: for me because I just I don't like them on

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Speaker 2: phones or social media stuff. And so you know, my daughter,

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Speaker 2: she's eight and she's asking for a phone. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: it's not happening, Like you're literally going into third grade.

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Speaker 2: You're not getting a phone until. I mean, what I

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Speaker 2: would love is like freshman year of high school. But

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Speaker 2: I know, because you know, we have a divorce family,

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Speaker 2: I might need her to be accessible with you know,

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Speaker 2: a cell phone to like text, but like she ain't

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Speaker 2: getting social media until least high school. And I don't

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Speaker 2: care if you know, if I'm the bad guy in that,

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Speaker 2: but I also know the negative effects of what that

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Speaker 2: does to you mentally too. And the people that come

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Speaker 2: on and just are are awful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so part of it is you'll be successful

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Speaker 1: in your plan the more you also in a like

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Speaker 1: she feels heard, even if you don't end up doing

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Speaker 1: what she wants. What I've learned is just even creating

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Speaker 1: space of like, why do you like social media? Like

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Speaker 1: what is good about it for you? Or why do

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Speaker 1: you like the iPad? What do you love about that? Time?

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Speaker 1: Let me understand what you love about that?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 1: And then when they're just like okay, she gets it

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Speaker 1: at least, then they have this a little bit more

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Speaker 1: openness to compromise to figure out a solution together that

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Speaker 1: feels good for both of you. But I do find

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Speaker 1: the kid has to feel understood and heard, and then

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Speaker 1: that's when actually a big space opens up for a

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Speaker 1: conversation around it.

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Speaker 2: I like that, that's great, Thank you for that. That's

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Speaker 2: a that's a good that's definitely a good tool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also and the way to make them

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Speaker 1: feel heard too is really to repeat back exactly what

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Speaker 1: they say. And so she's like, okay, well, when in

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Speaker 1: on social media, I just feel like I'm close to

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Speaker 1: my friends, and I'm like, I get that you're close

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Speaker 1: to your friends. That is important. I get it, you know,

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Speaker 1: And and just give them a moment to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: for real, rather than like, but you know, and actually

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Speaker 1: maybe to give it a day, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, to it for sure. Oh, I love that. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you're you know, you have this book,

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Speaker 2: you're doing this and then you know, for the listeners

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Speaker 2: right now as a reader, what I mean Obviously having

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Speaker 2: these girls have their voice heard is a huge takeaway.

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Speaker 2: But is there another takeaway in the book that you

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Speaker 2: just really want to drive home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's making space for also a

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Speaker 1: girl to explore lots of different interests, explore what her

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Speaker 1: needs might be. A lot of time, when a girl

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Speaker 1: is good at one thing, we start affirming her and like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, you're amazing at that and you're easy.

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Speaker 1: And girls are hearing this messaging that they can really

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Speaker 1: be good at one thing and that's where they should

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Speaker 1: spend all their time and whatever. Just really sensitive to

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Speaker 1: how you affirm, right. Even how we talk to little girls.

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Speaker 1: One of the first things we say is oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: like you're pretty dressed, Like how cute you are, And

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Speaker 1: we're telling them so young that their value is their looks,

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Speaker 1: or their value is that they're great at this one sport.

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Speaker 1: And what I have found is girls can be good

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Speaker 1: at lots of different things. Yes, And we're very rarely

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Speaker 1: asking well do you actually like playing that sport. You know,

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Speaker 1: do you actually like that? Like? What do you actually

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Speaker 1: lights you up? You know from within what gives you joy?

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Speaker 1: And girls aren't used to actually really checking in and

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Speaker 1: being like would I like that? And then space to

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Speaker 1: explore it where maybe they're not so good at it

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Speaker 1: at first too. There's so much achievement focus, and I

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Speaker 1: need there should be space to do it kind of

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Speaker 1: badly at first and make mistakes. And I find with boys,

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Speaker 1: boys can make mistakes and it really isn't that big

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Speaker 1: a deal to them, whereas when girls make mistakes, they

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Speaker 1: take it in as their entire identity that they messed

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Speaker 1: up and they're bad at that. And so the more

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Speaker 1: space we can give girls to make mistakes, explore who

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Speaker 1: they are, have big feelings, even like grumpy feelings right again,

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Speaker 1: is as hard as it can be. They're a normal

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Speaker 1: human being. Those are normal human emotions.

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, Yeah, No, I love that You're You're awesome

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Speaker 2: and I appreciate you coming unwind down and everyone please

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Speaker 2: go get her book, Underestimated the Wisdom and Power of

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Speaker 2: Teenage Girls. Thank you so much, Chelsea, thank you, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much. I have a great day, girl, by

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Speaker 2: it right,