1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 2: Fantasy. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 3: It is like a warning about putting too much faith 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 3: in untested technologies or throwing our weight behind flawed technologies. 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 3: Just because they're shiny and new doesn't necessarily mean they're 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 3: accurate a little better than what's coming before. 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 4: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 4: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 4: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 4: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 4: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 12 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 4: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 4: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 4: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 4: Wicked presents wicked words about the choices that writers make, 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 4: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 4: behind the stories. One of the most controversial tools used 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 4: by investigators is the light detector. It's often used to 19 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 4: intimidate suspects, and sometimes it's responsible for confessions both real 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 4: and false. The light detector's origin is grounded in deception abuse, 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 4: and of course, murder author Ammett Katwalla tells us about 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 4: his book Trimmor's in the Blood, Murder, Obsession, and the 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 4: Birth of the Light Detector. 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: We can start with the Wilkins case. This is May 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty two, so one hundred and one years ago 26 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: almost as we're recording this, and a woman called Anna 27 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 3: is driving back from a camping trip in the mountains 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: with her husband Henry. They're in California in the Santa 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: Cuez Mountains, driving north towards San Francisco. 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: It's kind of getting late. 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: They've got their kids in the backseat, and as they 32 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: drive into San Francisco on the edge of the city, 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: they know it's a car following them, and the car 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: speeds up and gets closer and closer and closer, and 35 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 3: eventually drives them to the side of the road and 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: they crash into the curb. And then a guy comes 37 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 3: running up to the window and points a gun at Henry, saying, 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: you know, give me all your money. 39 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: And then there's a struggle. 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: Henry tries to reach for his own gun to kind 41 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 3: of tell this bandit to get lost. But what ends 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: up happening is that the bandit fires a billet into 43 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 3: the car, and rather than hitting Henry, he hits his 44 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: wife Anna instead. 45 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: So Anna has been shot. The bandit runs off. 46 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: Henry drives to hospital, but when he gets to the hospital, 47 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 3: doctors tell him and his wife is dead. 48 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: What do we know about the bandit? 49 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 4: Because I'm assuming Henry has a decent description, although we 50 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 4: know that witnesses oftentimes don't have a good description when 51 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: they've gone through something traumatizing like that. 52 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, his description is pretty vague. 53 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: He describes this kind of like reasonably tall man with 54 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: a bandana tied over his face. It was getting dark, 55 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: so there wasn't a huge amount of light for him 56 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: to see by. He describes the car as being a 57 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 3: red dodge. He describes there being three men in the car. 58 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 3: This is the description that Henry kind of gives to 59 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: police that evening when they interview him at the hospital. 60 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 4: One thing I think is interesting in all of the 61 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 4: research in history, police are skeptical of crime victims who 62 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 4: are giving a description that's too vague, and then they're 63 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: also skeptical of crime victims who give a description that 64 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 4: is way too specific. 65 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: So now I start. 66 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 4: Thinking or wonder, what is the right amount of information 67 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 4: that they're looking for, and police are skeptical at this point, 68 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 4: Is that right. 69 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: Yes, So they immediately start to get a little bit 70 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 3: skeptical because they interview another witness, a guy called Jacob Corfinkle, 71 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: who had kind of seen this little car tase unfold 72 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 3: on Nineteenth Avenue in San Francisco, and his description of 73 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: the vehicle did not match Henry's description of the vehicle. 74 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: So Henry said that the car that had been following 75 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: him and Anna was a red Dodge, but this guy, 76 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: Jacob Krfinkell, said it was a blue Hudson. So there 77 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: was this one discrepancy right there already. But in all 78 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: other ways, Henry seemed like, you know, a distraught husband 79 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: who'd just lost his wife. He was so upset in 80 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: the hospital that he almost claps passed out. So I 81 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: don't think they were really suspicious at this point of 82 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: him having been involved or anything like that. They may 83 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 3: even maybe thought that, you know, here's a guy who's 84 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: just been through a really traumatic event. Maybe he's not 85 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: remembering things clearly, and maybe if we speak to him 86 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: in a few days, he'll be able to give us 87 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 3: a fill up picture. But they immediately kind of started 88 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 3: looking for the culprits based on the description that Henry 89 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: had given them. 90 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 4: What is Jacob saying, did he see the whole thing 91 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 4: or did he just see a car trailing them? 92 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: He was parked by the side of the road, or 93 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: he was driving along the road with his own family, 94 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 3: and he was with his wife and his son and 95 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 3: the sun. It's noticed in the newspaper account was kind 96 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: of like car obsessed, so he could recognize the different 97 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: engine noises that the different cars would make, which became 98 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 3: quite significant later on. But so he's driving along and 99 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 3: he sees two cars go speeding past. In the first 100 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 3: car as Henry's yellow Premier car. Henry was a mechanic, 101 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: so he loved cars, and he's really proud of this yellow, 102 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: bright yellow car that he had. I think of it 103 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 3: in my head a bit like the car from the 104 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: Great gat Speed, you know, just. 105 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: Sort of speeding along. 106 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: So he saw this one Cargay pass, and then he 107 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 3: saw this other Cargat pass really fast. 108 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: The first thing he saw. 109 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: And then maybe five minutes later, he continues driving further 110 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: along the road and he sees Henry's car stop by 111 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: the side of the road, and Henry's Henry waves him 112 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 3: down and says, help help. My wife's been shot and 113 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: needs to get her to a hospital. So he doesn't 114 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 3: see the crime unfold, but he kind of sees the 115 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: kind of two cars go past him. He hears maybe 116 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: the gun shot, hears shouting, but he doesn't actually see 117 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 3: the actual shooting. So he can't really confirm anything beyond 118 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: the fact that these were the two cars that were involved, 119 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 3: and that Henry was frantic covered in blood, and the 120 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: shooting did happen where and when Henry said it happened, 121 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: but not how it happened. 122 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 4: Okay, So when do things turn for Henry? Because I'm 123 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 4: assuming that's the road we're heading down right now. 124 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 3: Essentially what happens is over the next kind of three 125 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: four days, the police chase down all these leaves. They 126 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: stop cars that look similar to the car Henry described, 127 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: They pull over suspicious looking people, but none of the 128 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: people are you know, the culprits. And then a couple 129 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: of days later, what happens is that a garage in 130 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: the Mission in San Francisco, two brothers called war and 131 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: Arthur Casta come in. What was taken from Henry and 132 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 3: the robbery were three one hundred dollar bills now. One 133 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: hundred dollar bills back then were a lot rarer than 134 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: they are now. You know, the minimum wage was thirty 135 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 3: three cents an hour, so having one hundred dollar bill 136 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: was kind of suspicious unless you were of a particular 137 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: social class. So, yeah, a garage in the mission, these 138 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: two brothers, Water and Arthur Casta come in and they 139 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: tried to pay for a one dollar twenty five car 140 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: repair with one hundred dollar bill. By now, it's two 141 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: days after the murder, the details of the crime have 142 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: been slashed all over the papers and the garage and 143 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: is immediately suspicious. So when the brothers leave, he calls 144 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: the police. The brothers were sort of well known to 145 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: the police. They're these sort of archetypal agents of chaos. 146 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: Walter is particularly just a great character who I couldn't 147 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: have Whisher for a better character, you know, a better 148 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: villain for the book. He's covered in scars, he's got 149 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 3: tattoos all over his hands. The story is apparently that 150 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: he was kicked in the head by a horse when 151 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: he was a boy, and. 152 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: Ever since then he'd been kind of violent and prone 153 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 2: to these kind. 154 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: Of impulsive, sort of reckless decisions, and then Arthur is 155 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: his brother, kind of rains them in a little bit, 156 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: but also has his own sort of criminal past. So 157 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: the police get this tip from the garage I know, 158 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: they pull these two brothers in for questioning. 159 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: The brothers deny having had anything to do with. 160 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: It, and then they do a police line up where 161 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: they ask Henry to kind of come in and say 162 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: where these the men that robbed you and shot your wife? 163 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: And Henry says, no, no, I've never seen these men 164 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: before in my life. 165 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: That's a couple of days later, but then over the 166 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: week after that, it transpires that actually Henry did know 167 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 3: the Caster brothers. In fact, he had worked with water 168 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: Cast a few years prior. So parts of his story 169 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: were kind of starting to unravel. So if you take 170 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: the fact that Jacob Golfingle described a different car to 171 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 3: the car Henry described, and the fact that Henry seemed 172 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: to have lied about knowing the Caster brothers and the 173 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: police line up, things start to kind of get a 174 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: little bit murky, and the police start to get a 175 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: little bit suspicious. 176 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 4: What is their car that they would have used in 177 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 4: this Does it match the description of either Henry's or Jacob's. 178 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, not initially, so they show the Caster brothers car 179 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: to Henry and to the attorney, but it's not the 180 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: same car. Eventually, once Henry says these aren't the guy, 181 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: they let the Caster Brothers go. And it's only after 182 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: they let the Caster Brothers go that the police discovered 183 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: that actually the car that was used had been rented 184 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: from a garage by the Caster Brothers for the day 185 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: of the murder and then given back about forty five 186 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: minutes after the murder. So they've got a definite link 187 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: between the car that was used and the Caster brothers, 188 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: and they've got a link between the cast of brothers 189 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: and Henry, which both sides kind of denied that link, 190 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: and they only put it together kind of after it's 191 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: too late, after they've already released the Caster Brothers back 192 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: into society. 193 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: So I'm assuming where we're heading is that the police 194 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 4: are going to believe that Henry hired these brothers to 195 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 4: kill his wife for some reason. 196 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, And actually the other thing that kind 197 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: of mergers during this time is that although Henry had 198 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 3: been this sort of picture of a grieving husband, there 199 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: had been some domestic issues in his marriage who had 200 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: been accused of kind of beating his wife Anna. Another 201 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 3: police officer discovered that he had actually filed for divorce 202 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: a month prior, so there'd been this kind of growing 203 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 3: tension in the marriage. Putting all this together, they had 204 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: this picture of this guy who was growing warm more suspicious, 205 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: but they didn't have any evidence. They didn't have the 206 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 3: Caster brothers in Custoine anymore to kind of corroborate that 207 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 3: side of the story, and Henry was still denying everything, 208 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: so they didn't really have anything to go on, and 209 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: so that's when they decided to turn to this new 210 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: machine that had just been invented across the bay in Berkeley. 211 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: There's so many fascinating characterism and there's a whole strand 212 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: about this guy called William Marston. He's the kind of 213 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 3: originator of the idea of the light detector. So just 214 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: to give like a super severer quick review, the theory 215 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: behind the light detector is that it works by tracking 216 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: your blood pressure and your pulse, and that if you 217 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: are lying, your blood pressure and your pulse will change 218 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: compared to when you're telling the truth. There had been 219 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: suspicions about this going back hundreds or thousands of years. 220 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 3: There's all these stories from ancient China and India folk 221 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: theories about how to tell if someone was lying, and 222 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 3: that kind of build on this rough idea. But Marsden 223 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: was a Harvard psychologist and he kind of measured peer's 224 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: blood pressure while they told lies. And you kind of 225 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: notice this link, but he did it in a very 226 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 3: sort of unstructured, kind of ad hoc way. Marsden would 227 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: go on to invent Wonder Woman, the character which is. 228 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: Kind of mad with the lasso, right, is that what 229 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: it was exactly? Yeah, the lasso that made people tell 230 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: the truth. That was one of my favorite things about 231 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman. 232 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. 233 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: And it was inspired by his actual work in light detection, 234 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: and he kind of pursued his career in lie detection 235 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: in a sort of parallel way to the characters in 236 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: my book. But in nineteen twenty one, August Volmer, who 237 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: was the chief of police in Berkeley, read this paper 238 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: by Marsden in an academic journal. Now, Varma was a 239 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 3: really fascinating guy. He is considered the father of modern 240 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 3: policing because he was the first police chief in America 241 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 3: to really kind of try and bring science to policing. 242 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: So policing in the early twentieth century was like brustal. 243 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: Still it was kind of billy clubs and the third 244 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: degree and beating confessions out of people. Former wanted to 245 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: humanize it a bit and bring in kind of more 246 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: scientific rigor and stuff like that, so he brought in. 247 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: Radios for his officers. 248 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: He was one of the first police officers to give 249 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: them bicycles and made cycles and cars so they could 250 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 3: cover more ground. He pioneered the use of like crime mapping, fingerprinting, 251 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 3: forensic photography, things like that. Another really interesting thing that 252 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: Volmer did was he was one of the first police 253 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: chiefs in America to hire college graduates to be cops. 254 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: So before that it was generally kind of older men. 255 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: There wasn't a huge amount of difference between the cops 256 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: and the criminals they were trying to catch in terms 257 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: of the demographic background and their kind of. 258 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: Status in society. 259 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: Varma changed that by hiring college cops, and at first 260 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: he was kind of kind of widely mocked in the 261 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 3: newspapers were doing this. 262 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: People thought these sort of you. 263 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: Know, nineteen and twenty year old boys would be too 264 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: soft to really grasp the problem of crime. So anyway, 265 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: Volmer read this paper by Marsden about this link between 266 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 3: blood pressure and line detection, and he thought that John Larson, 267 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 3: who was one of his college cops, would be the 268 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 3: perfect person to turn this idea, this insight into a 269 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: machine that could actually be used to systematically determine whether 270 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: someone was lying during a police interview. So that brings 271 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: us to John Larson, who again is you couldn't wish 272 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: for a better character. He was a bit older than 273 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: the other college cops, he was twenty nine years old. 274 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: He wanted to be a criminologist, John Larson, but before 275 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: he did that, he wanted to get some kind of 276 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: real world experience of crime fighting. 277 00:11:58,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: Now. 278 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: Larson was stubborn, awkward, just belligerent, often got into like 279 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: disputes with his employers. 280 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: I've read so many of his. 281 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 3: Letters, and he's just a fascinatingly sort of prickly character, 282 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 3: and he always works against his own interests. 283 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: Large amounts of hubrius is always the impression I had 284 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: about John Marson. 285 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, the stubbornness as well, Just the most stubborn man. 286 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: And in every way that Varner was kind of egalitarian 287 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 3: and open and friendly. Larson was sort of closed off 288 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: and stubborn and stuck his heels in. He was also 289 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: a really terrible cop. He would constantly like just he 290 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: crashed two cars. He got in fights with his colleagues, 291 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: like slept on the job and all this kind of thing. 292 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 3: So I think for last and it was a bit 293 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 3: of a relief when Volmer kind of said to him, Okay, 294 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 3: I'm taking you off the beat and you can just 295 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: work on this machine full time. Over the next few 296 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 3: weeks months in the spring of nineteen twenty one, Larson 297 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: developed this machine and it looks pretty similar to the 298 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 3: light sexes of today. It's got a kind of pen 299 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: that scratches the lines on a scrolling piece of paper. 300 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: It's got the blood pressure cuff that goes around your arm. 301 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 3: It's got the neumagrass which makes you're breathing. They wrap 302 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 3: around your chest. Actually, in one hundred years of the 303 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 3: equipment really hasn't changed that much. So over the next 304 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 3: year last and tested this equipment. He solved a few cases, 305 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 3: including some thefts at college dorms. He used the light 306 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 3: detector in the William High Tower, Father Heslin case. Would 307 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 3: you talk about in your book American Sherlock, where I 308 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: think it ultimately agreed with the theory in terms of 309 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: getting the right answer about whether high Tower had committed 310 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: the crime or not, and then a year later he 311 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: used it on the Henry Wilkins case. 312 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: What I've found interesting about doing all the research on 313 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 4: the light detector with this case, I'll just summarize very quickly. 314 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 4: So the William high Tower case happened in nineteen twenty one. 315 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 4: A priest goes missing in Colnwick, California and ends up dead, 316 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 4: and there is a man who has arrived at a 317 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: church and is trying to guide the police on where 318 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 4: to find this body. And finally the police figure out 319 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 4: that he was the one who did it, William high Tower, 320 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 4: and they bring him and they strap him to this 321 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 4: machine that John Larson had just made portable, I think, 322 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: and they strap them and he's petrified and nonsensical. And 323 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 4: that leads me to one of the things that I 324 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 4: know you and I will talk about is why it 325 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: doesn't work. William high Tower very clearly had schizophrenia, and 326 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 4: that is one of the things mental health, I mean, medicine, 327 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 4: I mean, there's so many reasons why this is not 328 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: an accurate machine, with the exception of scaring the hell 329 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: out of people when they're strapped up to it and 330 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: they fail. 331 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: You make a really good point. 332 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 3: You can't assume that someone's blood pulse is racing because 333 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: they're lying. 334 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: There could be a myriad of reasons why that's happening 335 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: mm hmm. 336 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: They could be scared of getting caught, or they could 337 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: be scared of getting wrongly accused, and the blood pressure 338 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 3: and pulse will do exactly the same thing mm hmm. 339 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: And you can't expect everyone to react the same way 340 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 3: to the same questions. High Tower is a perfect example 341 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: of someone with mental health condition. There's no reason to 342 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: expect that their physiological reaction to a questioning would be 343 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: the same as someone else. 344 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 4: And also, I talked to a forensic psychologist when I 345 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 4: was working on that book who said people with psychopathy 346 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 4: will pass with flying colors because they actually believe the 347 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 4: lies that they're saying. So everything from the medicine to 348 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 4: the bad day you had to whatever. It could say 349 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 4: your blood pressure's high, your heart rates high, but it 350 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 4: can't say why. And I think that's why every time 351 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 4: I see on a true crime show, you know, oh 352 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: he failed the lie detector. 353 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: Who cares? 354 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 4: I mean, I guess it intimidates people sometimes into confessions. 355 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 4: But I'm assuming we're going down the road that Henry 356 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 4: gets strapped to one of these lie detectors and they 357 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 4: start asking questions. How do the questions work with a suspect? 358 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 4: Do they start out easy and get hard? 359 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: So the way it works generally is the way it's 360 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: supposed to work is that you have control questions and 361 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: you have target questions, and they're supposed to be yes 362 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 3: or no questions. So the way it works is that 363 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: you break it down into the control questions and that 364 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: helps you establish a baseline for what that person's body 365 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: response is when they're telling the truth, and then when 366 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: you ask the target questions, you can then compare their 367 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 3: responses to the target questions to their response to the 368 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 3: baseline questions, and that will give you some indication of 369 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: whether they're lying or not. So, for Henry, the target 370 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: questions where I think like, do you like the movies? 371 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: Do you smoke? Have you ever seen visions? Do you 372 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: drink to excess? 373 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 3: And then the questions were about the crime, were you 374 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: know did you hire anyone to commit this murder? Do 375 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: you know, Arthur at Walter Caster, when did you first 376 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 3: see the car? 377 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: Specifics about the crime. 378 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: Exactly specifics about the crime. Henry was, you know, kind 379 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: of an interesting character as well, quite moody, obviously, kind 380 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 3: of sometimes quite violent. He and Anna were German immigrants. 381 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: There were a lot of German immigrants in San Francisco 382 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: at the time. There was still a degree of suspicion 383 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: about the immigrant community in San Francisco at that time, 384 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: particularly after the war. After the First World War, Germans 385 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 3: in America had seen their place in society kind of 386 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: slipped somewhat. So there was maybe a degree of bias 387 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: against Henry from the press the public. But you know, 388 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: Larsen did the test and he analyzed the result. He 389 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 3: said to press afterwards that he was a willing subject, 390 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: that he was nervous, but actually he was convinced that 391 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: he was telling the truth. In fact, Henry had been 392 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: so nervous during the time that it took ages for 393 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: the pulse to sort of settle down to the point 394 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 3: where Larson could actually perform the test, which perhaps is 395 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: a clue that maybe something wasn't quite right. But yeah, 396 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: so Henry passed the test. The examiner kind of splashed 397 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: this big story saying, you know, science says he tells 398 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 3: the truth. And there's a column from John Larson about 399 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: you know why Larson thought that Henry was telling the truth, 400 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: so please let him go. And they continued with their investigation, 401 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: basically starting from scratch because the Caster brothers were gone 402 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: and Henry seemed to be telling the truth according to 403 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: the polygraph machine. 404 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: Amazing. 405 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 4: And in the press, what was the reaction? Did everybody 406 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 4: just think this was the greatest machine ever? 407 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, up to this point it has been quite positive. 408 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: And I think that both Volma, August Vlmer and John 409 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: Larson had been quite effusive in their praise of the machine. 410 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: And there was only really after this case that Larson 411 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: began to get very worried about this. These are the 412 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 3: words he actually usually called it a Frankenstein's monster. He 413 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: began to get very worried about this Frankenstein's monster that 414 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 3: he had unleashed. And I think if it had been 415 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 3: up to John Larson, he would have maintained very very 416 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 3: tight control over the machine and the idea, and no 417 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: one else would have used it unless it was under 418 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: his directed provision. 419 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 2: So he could make sure that they were using it properly. 420 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: The problem is that in nineteen twenty one, last and 421 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: a high school student called Leonard Keeler. Leonard Keeler was 422 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: a kind of family friend of August Farmer, and he 423 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: was a sixteen precocious, sixteen year old kid who was 424 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: kind of sickly in and out of school with various illnesses, 425 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: loved the outdoors, used to milk rattlesnakes for their venom, 426 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: and like perform close up magic. Basically, Varmer brought Keeler 427 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 2: into the police department one day and Keiler saw Larson 428 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: doing a lighter text test on a suspect, and Keeler 429 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: was like basically instantly fascinated by this machine, and over 430 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: the next few years became Larson's protege i guess kind 431 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: of helped him carry the machine around, helped him set 432 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: it up in different cases, helped him basically run the tests. 433 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: And in the years that follow it was really Leonard 434 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: Keeler who was responsible for popularizing the polygraph and spreading 435 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: it all across America, and Larson and Keeler basically ended 436 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 2: up absolutely despising each other. Larson thought that Keiler had 437 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 2: sort of bastardized his. 438 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 3: Machine and sold us to the highest bidder, and wasn't 439 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: adhering to scientific principles. Keiler thought Larson was stubborn and 440 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: stuck up and you know, was trash talking him all 441 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: around town. 442 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,239 Speaker 2: Which he was. 443 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 3: So yeah, these two creators the live detector had this 444 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: spectacular falling out. 445 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 4: So what ends up happening ultimately with the Henry Wilkins case. 446 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 4: Do they come to a conclusion do they track down 447 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 4: the Castor brothers. 448 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 3: So what happens is that as soon as Henry leaves 449 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: his lie detector test, he goes home, he goes to 450 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: his garage, and then he goes to a secret meeting 451 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: with Robert Castor, who is the brother of Walter and 452 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: Arthur who are missing. What he doesn't know is that 453 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 3: he's being followed Henry when he does this, So this 454 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 3: is immediately a very very suspicious red flag. You've just 455 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: passed the light detectors saying you had nothing to do 456 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 3: with the Caster brothers. 457 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 2: Then you're going to a meeting with their brother immediately afterwards. 458 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: So what ends up happening is that the police managed 459 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: to eventually find Arthur and bring him back to San Francisco, 460 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: and they put him in a jail cell and try 461 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: and get him to confess, and he doesn't confess for 462 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: a few days, confessed to being part of the murder 463 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 2: of Anna Wilkins, being one of the bandits that pulled 464 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: her over and fort her. It takes a few days, 465 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: but the way they eventually get a confession is through 466 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: some sort of clever thinking by Matthew Brady, who was 467 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: the district attorney. They basically put Arthur Caster in this cell, 468 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: and then they put this kid in the cell next 469 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: to him, who they tell Arthur has been arrested for 470 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: the Henry Wilkins case. And all night Arthur can hear 471 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: this kid next to him whaling in a cell about 472 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: how he's been wrongly accused and how they're going to 473 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: execute him. 474 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: And after two nights of this, Arthur's conscience gets the 475 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: better of him and he basically tells the police everything. 476 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 3: He tells them that yes, Henry had paid him and 477 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: Walter to shoot his wife, but that Walter was the ringleader. 478 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 3: But the first thing Arthur knew about it was when 479 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 3: they started following the car back to San Francisco, and 480 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 3: Walter had just told Arthur that he was going to 481 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 3: run an errand and that he needed his help with something, 482 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: so that he was an unwilling accomplice. So that really 483 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,239 Speaker 3: obviously was very incriminating for Henry, who had also left 484 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: San Francisco at this point, so that the police then 485 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: fetched Henry dragged him back to San Francisco with some force, 486 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: shall we say, in the sort of. 487 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: A nineteen twenty's a manor. 488 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: They had Arthur Cast in jail as well, but what 489 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: they didn't have was Walter Caster when they really needed 490 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 3: Walter as the alleged ring leader to bring charges forward 491 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 3: to take this case to trial. Now, Walter has been 492 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 3: on the run in northern California for a few weeks, 493 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: but then he decides to come back to San Francisco 494 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: and the police eventually track him down to a house. 495 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: It's in Peterrero Hill, so kind of southern San Francisco. 496 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 3: It's his mother's house, so the Caster's mother's house and 497 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 3: the police go over there to apprehend Walter. There's like 498 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: three or four police officers and they ring the doorbell. 499 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 3: Mini Caastera, who's their mother, answers the door. She says, 500 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 3: you know, Walter's not here, but through the door they 501 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 3: can see the kind of remains of a helf eaten 502 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 3: breakfast on the kitchen table, and they're with Walter's girlfriend, 503 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 3: who's the one who's kind of led them to that 504 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 3: house as well. So at the door, you've got a 505 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: couple of police officers, Walter's girlfriend, and then inside you've 506 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: got Mini Castor who's the mother. So the police push 507 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 3: into the house, and as they do, basically chaos breaks out. 508 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: So Walter shoots a few shots. 509 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 3: He's hiding in the kitchen, shoots the three shots, kills 510 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 3: one of the police officers, shoots the other one above 511 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 3: the eye, and then ends up shooting his girlfriend and 512 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 3: himself in this kind of like five minutes of bloodshed 513 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: in this in this house in San Francisco. You know, 514 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 3: John Larson is watching this from across the bay in Berkeley. 515 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 3: He can be reads about it in the newspapers, here's 516 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 3: about it through his colleagues, and he's distraught. 517 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: He's like, God, my machine contributed to this. You know. 518 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: If he had got the right answer, then maybe this 519 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 3: wouldn't have happened. Maybe they would have kept Henry in custody. 520 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: Maybe they would have been able to solve the case 521 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 3: without having to resort to this violence. So yeah, that's 522 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: kind of where things end up. And then obviously the 523 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: case goes to trial over the next few months and 524 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 3: all the events gets presented, and the case is really 525 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 3: like the two sides, you know, on one side, they're arguing 526 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 3: that Henry was the mastermind that he paid the Caster brothers, 527 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: and then the other side, the defense's argument is essentially, 528 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: you can't trust the brothers. You know, they're so shady, 529 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: they're so dodged that you can't trust a word they say. 530 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 3: So it really comes down to like trust and who 531 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 3: you can believe. And eventually Henry gets acquitted. It takes 532 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 3: two trials, but eventually he gets acquitted, and John Larson 533 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: is sort of he's never really able to let this 534 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 3: case go. So even though Henry gets acquitted, So after 535 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 3: Henry gets acquitted and released, John Larson kind of makes 536 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 3: the point of actually befriending Henry Wilkins and he helps 537 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 3: him find a new job, and he helps him move 538 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: from San Francisco to further northern California, and then he 539 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 3: convinces Henry to do another light detector test a couple 540 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 3: of months later. Larson is so convinced that this guy 541 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: is guilty, and he's so convinced that his machine got 542 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 3: it wrong, and he kind of wants to make amends, 543 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: so he convinced him to do an a light sexed test, 544 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: and Henry passes that one again, and then he also 545 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 3: convinces him to to undergo a truth serium test, which 546 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: again is another sort of studo scientific thing from back then, 547 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: and again Henry passes that too, and that's kind of 548 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 3: where the case ends with Henry A. 549 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 2: Freeman. 550 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: Larson completely turned around on his machine, and he's gone 551 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 3: from thinking it's the greatest thing to pick criminology ever 552 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 3: to thinking of it as a sort of Frankenstein's monster. 553 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: Larson doesn't stop it, right, he continues on. They continue 554 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: using it. 555 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 4: He doesn't go to the press and say I got 556 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 4: to tell you, I think that my machine got this wrong. 557 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: He doesn't do that. 558 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: I think even by then it's too late. 559 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 3: By then, it's the mid nineteen twenties and Kila and 560 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 3: Volmo of moved to la and then they move to 561 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: Chicago and they take the light detector with him, and 562 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 3: they get splashy headlines about how effective it is, and 563 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 3: then they roll it out across the world and Larson 564 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: watches this from a place of increasing frustration over the 565 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 3: next you know, thirty years, as this machine that he 566 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 3: thought would bring about justice actually becomes just like another 567 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: form of psychological manipulation. He wanted to use the light 568 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 3: detectors to end physical torture, but actually what he ended 569 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: up creating was a tool of psychological torture. 570 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: And that's one of the great sadnesses. 571 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 4: Now, what I remember is sometime in the twenties, was 572 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 4: it the US Supreme Court or was it California's Supreme 573 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 4: Court that said this is stupid, you cannot use it 574 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 4: in court, which I was shocked because they were letting 575 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 4: everything into court. So even in the twenties, judges were saying, 576 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 4: I don't think this is good evidence. 577 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: Did that not slow this thing down? I guess not. 578 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 3: You're talking about the Fry case, yes, which is a 579 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: really famous legal standard. Say, this is what William Marston 580 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 3: was working kind of on the side. So while Larson 581 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: and Quila and Valmore were solving crimes in San Francisco, 582 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 3: William Marsden was on the other coast. He was in 583 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 3: Washington teaching law and trying to get the polygraph or 584 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 3: get lie detection accepted in court. He brought this case 585 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: to court centering around a murder of a prominent doctor 586 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 3: in Washington by a guy called James Alfonse Frye, who 587 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 3: was the first world wolvet, and the judge in this 588 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: case said that you can't use a new invention in 589 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: a federal court room until it's kind of reached broad 590 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: acceptance by experts in the field, and that became the 591 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: known as the fry standard, and for decades, even until 592 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: I think the nineteen seventies or eighties, it was kind 593 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: of the de facto that American courts decided whether or 594 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 3: not new inventions like fingerprinting, like DNA, like hair analysis, 595 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: whatever it might be, whether they were acceptable in court. 596 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: So yes, the five standard actually barred the polygraph from 597 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 3: federal court rooms, has barred the polygraph from federal courtrooms 598 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 3: ever since it was invented, essentially one hundred years. The 599 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: problem is that the polygraph is used not necessarily in 600 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: federal court rooms, but kind of in parts of investigations 601 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: before cases get to trial. 602 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: It's used because it's a quicker way of getting confession. 603 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 2: It's used as a way of co. 604 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: Escing intimidating exactly. So tell me about the next big case. 605 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 4: You've got John Larson who has used this, and other 606 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 4: people now are using this. Are they using the lie 607 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 4: detector as the sole source of evidence in any criminal case? 608 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 4: Or does there have to be something else there even 609 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 4: in the nineteen twenties for them to say preponderance of 610 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 4: evidence for guilt. 611 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, it's the same system hasn't changed. 612 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: So I think, you know, you do need other evidence. 613 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: I guess the problem comes when you he biased proceedings. 614 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: By using the light detector, You know what I mean. 615 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 3: You have to question whether someone can get a fair 616 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 3: trial if all over the newspapers it's been splashed has 617 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 3: failed lie detector test, all that kind of thing, or 618 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 3: whether it leads the police down certain avenues of investigation 619 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: or closes off other avenues of investigation because of this 620 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: faulty reasoning, was faulty science. Keiler in particular involve around 621 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 3: loss and worked on a bunch of cases over the 622 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: next few decades, and I covered some other than in 623 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: the book. And they moved from San Francisco to la 624 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 3: and then they ended up in Chicago, which was sort 625 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 3: of the crime capitol maybe of the world. In the 626 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 3: nineteen thirties. Actually, you know, you al Capone and like 627 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 3: it was just amazing city of like, you know, you 628 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 3: had the stockyards, and you had the massive immigration, and 629 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: you had gangs and mobsters and all this kind of 630 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 3: stuff going on, and it was. 631 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: Like not long. 632 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 3: It was around the time of the Valentine's Day massacre, 633 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 3: you know, that famous series of killings in Chicago, So 634 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 3: it was around that kind of time. So it's all 635 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 3: sort of film noir, the Untouchables, elliot ness, all that 636 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But yeah, they pitched up there, Kala 637 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 3: and Volma and Lasten to a certain extent, founded like 638 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: an institute of criminology and tried to kind of commercialize 639 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 3: and expand the use of criminology forensic science to fight crime. 640 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: And they did some really interesting stuff, and I thought, 641 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 3: some really fascinating cases. And then the second case I 642 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 3: look at the book is about the murder of a 643 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 3: guy called Max Dent. He's kind of a sort of 644 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: low level drug dealer turned informant in Chicago, in the 645 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 3: West Side of Chicago in nineteen thirty five, and one day, 646 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 3: Max Dent is walking to get cigarettes and he gets 647 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 3: gunned down by a mysterious assailant and police like kind 648 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 3: of the other investigative work, and they quickly find the 649 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 3: culprit or, the alleged culprit guy called Joe Rappaport, who 650 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: is one of the guys that Max Dent had informed against, 651 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: and in fact was the only person who Max Dent 652 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 3: had informed against who was not yet behind bars. 653 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: He was still awaiting trial. 654 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 3: But Dent had a lot of enemies, so it could 655 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 3: have been that someone who was already in jail because 656 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: of him had hired someone to kill him or whatever. 657 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: So it wasn't you know, one hundred percent of done deal. 658 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: So Rappaport gets given the death penalty. So he's sentenced 659 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 3: to you to death, and he's on death row, and 660 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 3: his sister Rose writes hundreds of letters to anyone she 661 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: can to try and get the sentence commuted or delayed 662 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 3: or whatever, and over the course of several months years, 663 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 3: the execution date keeps getting pushed back and. 664 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: Delayed for various reasons. So you know, it appeals. 665 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 3: Then there's like Jewish holidays that it can't happen, and 666 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 3: then eventually it comes to Henry Horner. He was the 667 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 3: governor of Illinois, at the time, and he gets the 668 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: final decision on whether or not this guy is going 669 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 3: to live or die, whether he's finally going to. 670 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: Face the electric chair or not. 671 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 3: Henry Horner was the governor of Illinois at this time, 672 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: but previously he'd been a judge and actually he'd use 673 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: the light detector to solve a case of police corruption 674 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 3: in Chicago a couple of years earlier. So he knew 675 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 3: Leonard Killer, and he knew aug was Volmer, and he 676 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: knew about the lighte detector. So when it finally came 677 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: down after four days of execution, it finally came down 678 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: to this decision about whether this Skuyja Rappaport should get 679 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: executed or not. Horner said to him, he said, if 680 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 3: you can pass the light detector test, then we won't 681 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 3: execute you. Oh my gosh, well yeah, which is kind 682 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: of nuts. So this is like March nineteen thirty seven. 683 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 3: By this point, everyone's a lot older and a bit 684 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 3: more battered. Quila has gone from being this kind of 685 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 3: like fresh faced sixteen year old kid who he's in 686 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 3: his early thirties and he's got a drinking problem and 687 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: his life is a mess, you know, and all this 688 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: kind of stuff. Larsen has been basically like exiled from 689 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: plight society because of his belligerence and his sort of 690 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 3: ability to rugby blook the wrong way. Bomber's back in 691 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 3: San Francisco. His health is deteriorating. So Quila kind of 692 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 3: goes to the Cook County jail with the light detector 693 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: in toe. So I should say that Keila kind of 694 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: redesigned the light detector when he made it more sleek 695 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 3: and commercial. He made this beautiful kind of John Larson's 696 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 3: lighte detector was kind of scraggly and sort of like rustic. 697 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: In a suitcase. 698 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Keiler bought this kind of nice wornup 699 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 3: box with like beautiful little dials and a little scroll 700 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 3: of paper and stuff like that. So Quiler kind of 701 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: turns up at the Cook County with the slideer sector 702 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 3: and he does the light detected test on joy Rapport. Now, 703 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 3: when Larsen had designed the test, it was supposed to 704 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: be kind of done in a way that you know, 705 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: quiet room, quite surroundings, everyone at peace. And this test 706 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 3: was done in a jail cell at Kirk County with 707 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: police officers and kind of media peering through the bars 708 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: with the lights flickering because they were testing the electric 709 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: chair in the next room. But it's like, how are 710 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 3: you supposed to be calm in that scenario. So Rappaport 711 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: fails the tests. He that calls up the governor and 712 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 3: says he's failed the test, and half an hour later 713 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 3: he goes to the electric chair. 714 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 715 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 3: And it's a really harrowing case. My view is that 716 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 3: Joe Rapperport was probably guilty. I mean, my view is 717 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: that the death founalty shouldn't be used. But that's this 718 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 3: kind of separate issue. If we are going to use it, 719 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: you cannot use it on the basis of a series 720 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: our scientific tests. Yeah, carried out under these conditions. You know, 721 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 3: he was convicted by a jury. That's fair enough. Let 722 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 3: that stand. Don't bring this kind of pseudoscientific stuff into 723 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 3: the box. You know, this, this test should not have 724 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 3: been given the last word on this guy's life basically. 725 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 3: So yeah, and that's kind of where the kind of 726 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 3: main section of the book ends. And then you know, 727 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 3: Last and Quila continued to bicker. This was sort of 728 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: the last draw for Last and he was just like 729 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 3: again absolutely distraught by what his invention had been used 730 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 3: for and you know, he wrote one hundreds of letters 731 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 3: complaining about about this tequila into anyone else would listen about, 732 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 3: you know, how this Frankenstein monster had got out of 733 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 3: his control. And yeah, Quila's life kind of unraveled a 734 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 3: bit after this as well. He drank more and more 735 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: and more and he died really young. 736 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: He had like a heart condition. 737 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 3: And yeah, so I think it's interesting that this machine 738 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 3: that sort of has transformed the justice system also sort 739 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: of wrecked its creators lives largely had such a big 740 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: impact on them. You know, even the cases they worked 741 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 3: on it, they really affected them. 742 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 4: You know, if you look at the National Sciences Report, 743 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 4: which analyzed each essentially tool of forensic science that we 744 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 4: use and sort of rates it and says, this is 745 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 4: what's reliable. Toxicology is reliable, DNA generally is reliable. And 746 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 4: then you look at these pattern matching things, right, so 747 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 4: fingerprinting and footprints and shoeprints and stuff where you're really 748 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 4: depending on the analyst to know what they're doing and 749 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 4: to make these comparisons. At least in the nineteen twenties 750 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 4: and thirties, do you think about the light detector test 751 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 4: and it's not even a the analyst doesn't know what 752 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 4: they're doing. 753 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: It's the it doesn't measure the right thing, you know. 754 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 4: It's like taking a blood test and saying, well, I'm gonna, 755 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 4: you know, try to detect this poison, but testing it 756 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 4: for the wrong poison completely. 757 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: Oh, there's no poison in here. 758 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 4: Well, you tested for arsenic and you're looking for you know, 759 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 4: perhaps or strychnine in there. So I thought the book 760 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 4: really was grounded in a lot of relevance today because 761 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 4: we are seeing so much, just this huge amount of 762 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 4: evidence that comes from all of these different sources, and 763 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 4: some of it is very very good and some of 764 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 4: it's not. And I think when we see this like 765 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 4: flashy scene of police officers trapping someone up to a 766 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 4: light detector test, it's I'm sure terrifying to anybody, guilty 767 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 4: or not guilty. 768 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I think you make a really interesting point. 769 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 3: I mean, Kilo himself said that the polygraph is no 770 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 3: more of a lie detector than a stethoscope. 771 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 2: As a light detector. 772 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, all it's doing is recording your pulse and your 773 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 3: blood pressure and you're breathing and then writing it down 774 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 3: on the chart. And it requires some human interpretation. Therefore 775 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 3: bias creeps in, and it's not an objective measurement. It's 776 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: very subjective. There's huge discrepancies in being found guilty depending 777 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 3: on your race and gender and things like that. It's 778 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 3: very unregulated. And the reason I wrote the book actually 779 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 3: was that, as you say, this was one hundred years ago, 780 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: and we've known about the faulty reasoning behind this machine 781 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 3: for one hundred years. But what we're seeing today is 782 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: a proliferation of other lie detector technologies, using brain scans, 783 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 3: using AI, using people dilation. 784 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: Facial recognition. I mean, there's so much. 785 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and they all kind of suffer from the 786 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: same fundamental flaw, which is that there's no such thing 787 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 3: as a lie detector. If you talk to people in 788 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: the field, they'll say there's no telltale sign of lying. 789 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: That's true for everyone all the time. There's no such 790 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: thing as like Pinocchio's nose. 791 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 3: Right, even if your light detector works for ninety percent 792 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 3: of people, that's still a huge number of people. That 793 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 3: doesn't work for yea, even if it works for ninety 794 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 3: nine percent of people, Well, how can you be sure 795 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: that the person you're using on isn't in that one percent. 796 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 3: And actually the cases where it gets used are those 797 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: EDU cases, right, the cases where it's not clear who 798 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 3: did it, it's not clear he's telling the truth, and 799 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: those are exactly the cases where the light detector is 800 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 3: likely to go wrong. 801 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 4: Well, Paul Holes and I often talk about having one 802 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 4: piece of evidence that seems rock solid, like DNA evidence, 803 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 4: versus having a huge amount of circumstantial evidence. He would 804 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 4: rather have a case with a lot of circumstantial evidence 805 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 4: that's unbreakable. You know, That's just it paints a picture 806 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 4: versus DNA where any good defense attorney is going to 807 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 4: be able to say, yeah, but this lab had that 808 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 4: problem that one time. Is it possible that the chain 809 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 4: of custody was broken that one time? 810 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: So I feel like the light detector test. 811 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 4: I know it's used as a tool, and probably I'll 812 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 4: hear from sigators saying, well, it's a He'll thank me 813 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 4: if something happens to one of your family members and 814 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 4: we catch the guy and they confess to hurting your 815 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 4: family member using the light detector. But you know, as 816 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 4: my father always said, he would rather have a hundred 817 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 4: criminals go free than one person who's innocently behind bars. 818 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really interesting point. 819 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 3: And there's something I really struggled with as well, because 820 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: I don't, you know, this tool has undoubtedly put really 821 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 3: bad guys away, you know what I mean. It has 822 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 3: has undoubtedly helped solve crimes, but then it has also 823 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 3: perpetrated huge miscarriages of justice. So I don't know how 824 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 3: you balance that, and that's something I really kind of 825 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 3: grappled with a lot when I was writing the book. 826 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: I think you're right. 827 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 3: I think it's probably there are probably other ways of 828 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 3: getting convictions where you need to get convictions that don't 829 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 3: risk the damage that the light detector can potentially cause. 830 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 3: And there's a lot of examples of remecent history of 831 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 3: people who have been wrongly convicted based on polygraph tests 832 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 3: or light detectors, and the damage that causes is irreversible. 833 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 3: I think, especially when you combine bad science with the 834 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 3: jury system a panel of non experts, it's very. 835 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: Easy to be overruled by this stuff. 836 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you know, you get these experts in 837 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 3: their field, and they get flown in from across the 838 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 3: country to impress upon you how much they know about 839 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 3: this technology and they say this technology is infallible, you know, 840 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 3: and you don't really understand it, because why would you write, 841 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 3: You're just a panel of ordinary people, you know, by design. 842 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 3: So these things can be useful if you put the 843 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 3: right amount of weight on them. I think the problem 844 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 3: with the light detector is because it's such a compelling idea, 845 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: something we've longed for for centuries. Too much weight gets 846 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 3: put on the findings of a light detector test, and 847 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 3: therefore it gets excus cases, excus things. It messes up 848 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 3: with the justice system, and that's my kind of issue 849 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 3: with it, I think. 850 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 4: So to close this out, I will say that with 851 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 4: Oscar Heinrich, who's my forensic scientist in American Churlo, he 852 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 4: had about four or five thousand letters in his archive. 853 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: I read probably half of them. 854 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 4: I never once read a letter in which he expresses 855 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 4: doubt in a case that he closed. Do you think 856 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 4: I think we know the answer to John Larson. Obviously 857 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 4: he expressed doubt, and he was, it seems like, remorseful 858 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 4: for even creating this thing to begin with. Do you 859 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 4: think that August Volmer, the police chief, or Keeler the 860 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 4: assistant ever had any doubts about the machine the way 861 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 4: John Morrison did. 862 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 3: I think that privately, they probably did. I think their 863 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: incentives were different. I think Larson was chasing justice. I 864 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 3: think Volmer was chasing kind of a kinder way of 865 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 3: doing policing. And I think maybe this is a bit 866 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 3: uncharitable tequila. But I think Keela was chasing fame, fortune. 867 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 3: You know, he was chasing something else, and maybe his 868 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 3: same It didn't really matter too much about whether the 869 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 3: cases that he was working on were solved. He wanted 870 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 3: the rush, the publicity, the adrenaline of working on the cases, 871 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 3: of being in the mix of you know, tussling with 872 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 3: bad guys and gangsters and robbers. So yeah, I don't 873 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 3: really know. Actually, I think that's a really interesting question. 874 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 3: It doesn't come across in their letters to each other, certainly, 875 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: but maybe there are the conversations that they had where 876 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 3: it's mentioned. 877 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 4: I feel like a lack of self reflection that comes 878 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 4: with some self doubt should be a requirement for anyone 879 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 4: who holds someone's life in their hands. 880 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: And for me, I. 881 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 4: Was so startled to say, Gosh, this man does not 882 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 4: believe he's ever made a mistake, and clearly he has 883 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 4: made mistakes. So yeah, something to think about with this 884 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 4: book in particular is you do have an awful lot 885 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 4: of people who are propelling this machine forward, who are 886 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 4: responsible for sending people away for life, for executing them 887 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 4: or setting them free, and it's all based on a 888 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 4: machine that we now know is no good. 889 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 890 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 3: What I will say is that once the box is open, 891 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 3: it's like Pandora's Box, right. You know, even if Kilo 892 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 3: and Las and Volmer heard all said we should stop 893 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 3: using this, by the time they've opened the box, it's 894 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 3: too late, you know. As well as those guys, there 895 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 3: were dozens of other people that were doing similar things 896 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 3: after the initial invention, so it's out there now. So 897 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 3: it's about how you design robust systems to stop these 898 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 3: things from kind of getting misused. 899 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 4: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 900 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 4: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 901 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 4: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 902 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 4: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis a Morosi. Our 903 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 4: associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by 904 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 4: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. 905 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 4: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer. 906 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 4: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 907 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 4: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 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