WEBVTT - Winning Big: Sarah Spain's Rules for Success + Not Having Regrets 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.119 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.320 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.640 and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:22.680 This is pretty smart. Hello. I hope you're having a 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.560 beautiful week. We are on Apple Podcasts New and Noteworthy 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.280 this week, and I got so many messages from all 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:35.320 of you saying congratulations, and really, I just want to 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:37.320 say thank you because you all have been rocking with 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:42.200 me for years, and if anybody out there is new 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.800 because of the New and Noteworthy moment, thank you for 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.800 joining us. I'm so excited to have you here. Now, 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.160 before we jump into today's episode, which is you guys know, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.360 I don't like you know, I don't like the word favorite, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.840 but it's truly one of my favorite conversations in three years. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.280 And before we jump into the episode, I want to 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:10.160 remind everybody that if you write a review and you 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.760 screenshot it and DM it to me or email me 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:19.080 Danielle at beeprettysmart dot com or at Danielle Robe on Instagram, 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.360 that I'll enter you in the weekly Raffle and I 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.000 choose one person each week to hop on a call 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:30.440 with a zoom, and we talk about how I can 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.360 add to your life, if I can introduce you to 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.679 anybody or brainstorm about your business. I try to use 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.080 everything I've ever learned from all these amazing guests to 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.040 pour into you. So that's just a quick reminder. Now 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.160 I want to know if you all watched the Olympics 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.640 this year, because whether you followed every detail or just 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.520 caught the highlights, something groundbreaking happened and it had nothing 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.800 to do with medals or wins or losses. The twenty 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.680 twenty five Paris Olympics marked a historic first. The International 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.480 the Committee announced that for the first time ever, they 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.600 reached gender parity with an equal number of female and 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.320 male competitors. It's huge. I had to reread the headline 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.960 a few times because sure, we know that there's always 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.960 been gender disparities when it comes to women in sports, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.920 but this was the Olympics. For context, Paris last hosted 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.440 the Olympics in nineteen twenty four and only four percent 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.440 of the athletes were women. How did a woman's identity 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:33.200 become autonomous with sports? Studies have shown that gender disparities 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.440 are reinforced by stereotypes, so it seems obvious and maybe 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.880 a little bit archaic, but it's still happening all the time. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:43.320 Take what happened at the end of the women's for 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.720 by one hundred freestyle relay. The Australian team was savoring 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.359 their gold medal victory, understandably caught up in the moment, right, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.520 but instead of celebrating their achievement, an Olympic commenter said 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.440 to the television audience, everybody listening and watching, you know 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.800 what women are like, hanging around doing their makeup. I 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:05.080 just want to let you know. He was let go 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.400 from his position and later apologized. But this isn't just 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.519 about women in sports. It's about women who love sports too, 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.120 women who even like sports, the fans. There's been a 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.760 historic rise in viewership in women's sports, and our guest today, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.000 Sarah Spain, she's had a front row seat to this 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:31.440 evolution for years. He's a sports reporter, an Emmy and 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:36.320 Peabody Award winning journalist, an espnW dot com columnist. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.160 First of all, you're not raised to believe that you 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.480 should care about sports, which is how I get to 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.240 my mid twenties before someone suggests I work in sports. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.160 If I had been a boy growing up and I 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.120 played three sports, and I was obsessed with the bulls. 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.280 People would have been talking to me about sports all 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.480 the time. Adults would have been asked me about it. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.680 Then there's the idea of the product not being as good, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.600 but women should like it anyway, even though we're telling 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.640 them the lack of resources investment, there's no halftime entertainment, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.680 the stadiums are crappy, but they should care about it, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.560 even though there's this other product over here that we're 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.680 telling everybody is better and should it is more deserving. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.440 We don't have civic investment. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.520 So are your cities paying for women's stadiums or just 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.400 the men's sports? Are your tax dollars going to support 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.400 the men's teams in your city or the women's too? 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:24.240 How about that? We never talk about that. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.640 She's right, but now we're seeing what some are calling 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:31.320 a femenomenon. Earlier this year, Vogue put out an article 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.880 titled the Rise and Rise of Women's Sports Bar. In 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.120 twenty twenty two, Portland saw the opening of the sports Bra, 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.800 the first sports bar dedicated solely to women's sports. The 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.400 cheeky name a play on bar, obviously reflects a shift 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.159 in perspective. The owner, Jenny mgwen said, the key is 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:54.120 tiny changes make the big difference. The sports Bra made 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 nearly a million dollars in revenue within its first eight 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.799 months in just this past July California. Well, it's first 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.239 all women's sports bar with lines wrapping around the block. 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.880 And I also think sports at its core is kind 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.320 of a middle finger to the idea of women having 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.000 a lane or being only allowed. 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:13.680 In certain spaces. 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.000 I think society does its best to sort of ingrain 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.800 in us an idea of what women should be, how 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.480 they should behave, where they belong, what spaces they. 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.440 Should be in. And once you get into. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.919 The sports world and you're already defying some of those stereotypes. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.920 You're not trying to be lady like, you're not trying 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:32.440 to look your prettiest during a game. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:33.200 You're trying to win. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.720 You don't have to be nice to everybody because it's 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:37.040 not going to get you where you need to be 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:37.560 in sports. 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.760 Looking beyond sports, where else can we see the tides 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.239 change if we just shifted how we had been framing 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.960 the conversation, Could that in fact be the real game changer? 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.280 Sarah came up in a nearly all male environment, so 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.200 she's had to ask herself this question a lot. How 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.719 do you successfully push against expectations in order to be 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.080 valued as your author authentic self. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.000 I want to talk about sports and be comfortable in 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:06.360 my skin more than anything. 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.160 I want to be funny. I don't want to be 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:09.760 sexualized and do it that way. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.080 But for this business, I have fake hair, I have 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.160 fake eyelashes. 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.880 I have to like waste half my time. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.120 Thinking about whether my teeth are white enough and what 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.000 my outfit looks like, and do I look polished enough? 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:23.760 And I know that I miss out on jobs from 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.840 not trying and caring enough about that stuff. And that's 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.919 really stupid, because I have a lot to add in, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.280 a lot to say, and I'm much more thoughtful and 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.200 introspective and researched and polished and prepared than so many 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:35.800 people who just look great. 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.240 This podcast was founded on this very idea. What if 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.919 pretty could mean so many other things? You hear me 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.160 say it in the intro pretty bold, pretty witty, pretty strong, 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:53.040 pretty smart, pretty anything pretty insert your own adjective. Because 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.320 what happens when you play the game but you play 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.880 it by your own rules? Is there a price you 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:09.160 pay or in the end do you win? Bit? Okay, Sarah, 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.080 I want to start from the beginning, like the very beginning. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.400 Why were you named Sarah? Did your parents name you? 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.800 I actually don't know why they named me that, but 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:20.560 they thought I was going to be a boy and 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.360 wanted me to be a boy, and so they were 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.160 going to name me Brett and they were all ready 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.200 and then I came out and they're like, oh, another girl. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:28.680 I love that they thought you were going to be 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.440 a boy. Your dad must love that you love sports. 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.120 Well, it's funny because my parents wanted a boy. And 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.400 even back when I was an infant, it was, you know, 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:42.200 very new technology, but you could try to intend to 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.480 have a certain gender. And so they had my sister 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:47.240 and me and they were like, let's try for a boy, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:49.640 and it never worked out. And then my sister played 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.520 women's professional tackle football for two years and is super 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:53.440 super into sports. 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:55.600 And then I did college sports and I work at sports. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:57.400 So we're like, we kind of gave you a little 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.280 of both. But the funny thing is my dad's. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.440 Like not even really into sports, so it was nothing 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:03.920 to do with sports. If anything. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.920 My mom was a two sport, college athlete before title 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.920 nine and cares a bit more, but truly neither of 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.800 them really care about sports. 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.800 That's a cool legacy that you're carrying on from her. Yeah, 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.920 so you mentioned you were a former college athlete, and 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.400 your bio it says athlete hepthally. 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.920 How do you pronounce heptathlete athlete? 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:26.520 What does that mean? 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:27.480 Yeah? 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.840 Well, during the Olympics is about the only time anyone 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:32.319 has any idea of what it is, and. 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.320 Even then they still aren't sure all the events. 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:39.400 But it's seven events, so pentathlon indoors and heptathlon outdoors. 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.520 So heptathlete is long jump, high jump, hurdles, eight hundred, 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.400 two hundred, javelin, and shot put. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.280 Wow impressive, Sarah. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.360 Jack of all trades, master of none is sort of 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.720 the point. You don't have to be the best at anything, 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.079 You just have to be good at everything. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:09:00.320 Do you remember when journalism and sports journalism became less 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.640 of a hobby and more of a career. How did 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.560 you know this was going to be your thing? 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.280 Yeah, because it was very late. So I was a 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.600 three sport athlete in high school. I got recruited for 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.000 all three, I got scholarship offers. I did Division one track, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.440 and not a single human being suggested that I might 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:21.800 work in sports. I was obsessed with Michael Jordan and 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.480 the Bulls. Every birthday, every Christmas. I asked for the 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.600 books and the vhs at the time and all the stuff, 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.439 and it did not occur to a single human being 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.160 that I could have a job in sports because there 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.560 were so few women. So I went to Cornell. I 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.920 was an English major. I moved out to LA because 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.920 I wanted to be on Saturday Night Live. I still do. 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:40.880 That's my dream job. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.920 Still so putting it out in the universe and never 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.480 too old to dream, as Diana Trossi would say. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:46.360 Old people can dream too. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.679 So I came out for comedy and actually took a 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.240 hosting boot camp class to practice throwing to break and 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.560 teases and introducing people to the show and interviews. And 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.360 I hosted a fake Chicago Bears show in that class 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.800 because the TA said, you know what, are you an expert? 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.480 And everybody was into your design, everybody was trying to 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.280 get on HGTV, and so she said after class, ah, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.079 so you want to work in sports? And I was like, oh, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:11.920 there's no women in sports, and the ones that are 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.640 like supermodels on the sidelines. I want to be funny 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:16.960 and that's not possible. And she said, well, it just 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.280 seems really natural. You could look into it. So I 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.240 took a class at UCLA Extension in TV sports reporting. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.560 I realized it was all the writing and extemporani speaking 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.160 from my improv and my English and all the other stuff. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.120 And then I had a background. I've been in sports 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.160 literally my whole life. So I decided to try it. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.360 And then once I did, I was like, oh, somebody 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.360 should have recommended this a long time ago. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.880 Well, as I'm hearing you talk about playing sports almost 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.480 your whole life, I think about the statistic that I'm 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.079 sure you know of because it's been going around podcasts 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.240 and the internet. I think over the last year, but 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.640 ninety four percent of C suite women were college athletes. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.240 And that's kind of an astounding number. Ninety four percent 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.360 of women in C suites. Yeah, why do you think 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.280 that is? If you had to boil it down to something. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.160 I think it's at Fortune five hundred companies. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.079 Just to be more specific, it's a stat that we've 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.400 been talking about for a number of years from Ernst 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.040 and Young it is something that's so fascinating. When you're 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.120 in the midst of doing sports and you've been doing 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.520 it your whole life, you take for granted so many 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.040 of the things that are an everyday part of it, 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.040 and then as soon as you're removed from it, or 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.160 as soon as you're around people who have never played, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.520 it becomes a lot more clear. And actually, through espnW 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.319 we do something called Campus Conversations where we go around 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.880 to different colleges and speak to all of their varsity 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.000 female athletes and help them pinpoint and understand the skills 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.280 that they're getting out of sports that they should be 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.920 putting on their resumes in place of those internships that 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.600 they can't do because they're competing, or jobs that they 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.800 can't take because they're coaching or training. And being able 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.520 to actually verbalize and put into wards what you're getting 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.160 out of it helps you truly understand it. For me, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:56.160 it's the most obvious, which is adversity and fighting through 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.360 loss and failure and going back and trying again. There 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.240 are so many people that will try something, not be 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.640 good at it, or not succeed and quit and that's it. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.600 And in sports, it is a constant humbling and losing 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:11.280 and getting back up and trying again. There's also an 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.680 earnestness and a humility of going out in front of 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.840 people and saying, I am doing my very best and 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.040 whatever happens, I have to accept. And you're watching me 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.319 do that, which you don't really think about. But that's 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.400 a very scary thing to go out in front of 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.200 people and say I'm trying my very hardest and if 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:28.719 I don't win, that's it. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.240 I did my best and I didn't win. I think 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:32.200 working with people. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.040 I thought of that one. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:34.000 That's interesting. 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.400 Yeah, working with people you hate or like or have 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.360 a completely different operating system from, and needing to find 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.440 that goal that you all share best idea wins. This 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.760 is how we're getting to the thing we want. Working 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.440 with leadership that you love or don't love, being a 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.880 leader amongst the people around you. I mean, it's really endless, 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.760 and I don't think I was aware of. 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:56.640 How much it shaped me. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.240 The thing that stood out to me the most being 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.520 an athlete growing up was I was tall. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.360 It was already six feet by the time I was twelve. 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.320 I was kind of awkward, and it was a way 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.800 for me to feel very empowered by my height and 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.560 my body. I also have always had big boobs, and 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.360 I was attracting older men at a young age, even 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.800 though I was not at all into that yet. I 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.480 was such a tomboy I didn't even really know what 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.760 was happening, but it made me very uncomfortable around older men. 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.440 And I think if not for sports, I would have 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.000 not understood how to be in control and in charge 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.600 of my own body and that it was something for 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.120 me to put to work and not something for others 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:33.720 to look at. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.599 And that was super. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.240 Necessary when I was younger and insecure about stuff. 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.120 So yeah, there's just there's a. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.360 Million things, but for me, one of them is I 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.079 think the confidence that you get from going out there 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.040 and competing and being in charge when you walk into 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.240 a c suite, when you walk into a boardroom, that 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.000 just really affects how you view yourself compared to the 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:57.959 other people there. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:13:59.520 And I also think. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.480 Sports sort of of just at its core, is kind 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.000 of a middle finger to the idea of women having 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.600 a lane or being only allowed. 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.680 In certain spaces, and so it's very easy. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.840 So I think society does its best to sort of 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.000 ingrain in us an idea of what women should be, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.960 how they should behave, where they belong, what spaces they 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:22.440 should be in. 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.120 And once you get into. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.520 The sports world and you're already defying some of those stereotypes. 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.520 You're not trying to be lady like, you're not trying 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.040 to look your prettiest during a game. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:31.800 You're trying to win. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.320 You don't have to be nice to everybody because it's 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:35.600 not going to get you where you need to be. 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.200 In sports, You've got to try your hardest. You got 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.440 to want to beat her, not be best friends with her. 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.840 Like all these things, even if it's subconscious, you're able 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.680 to undo some of the things that we grow up 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.800 with and are taught. And when you get into spaces later, 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.720 whether you're doing it intentionally or not, you've already said no, 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.200 thank you to those ideas of who and what you 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.280 should be, and that frees you to decide what you 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.880 do want and how you want to behave. And so 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.960 for me, that became very intentional. At a certain point 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:05.680 when I entered in an all male fields, I had 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.720 to be aware of like, oh, hold on, here's what 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.800 they're telling me about why I shouldn't be and how 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.960 I should act. I don't want that, But I didn't 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.120 realize that I had already been doing that for years 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.720 and years, just as a result of what sports have 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:18.880 helped me sort of unlearned from society. 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:25.800 I feel like my head's exploding. You just unlocked so 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.000 many things for me in one answer. Oh good, you 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:30.680 are so right. 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:31.920 Yeah. Wow. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.600 I grew up with big boobs and I felt really 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:39.640 uncomfortable by older male attention too. That's so fascinating. Well 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.280 who did you model your career after? If there weren't 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.320 women in sports, who did you look to? 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:46.480 At first? It was Kenny Maine. 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.120 So for people who are not familiar with sports, Kenny 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.920 Maine stood out as this very satirical, dry humor reporter. 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.320 He hosted Sports Center and then he did features called 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.720 The Main Event and they were almost like straight out 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.720 of Saturday Night Live, that comedy sports combo that I 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:04.600 really wanted to do. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:05.720 And then once I. 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.680 Got into the business, I would say the two biggest 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.480 kind of folks that had such an impact on me 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:16.120 were Jamel Hill because she was an ESPN colleague. She 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:18.320 saw me speak at a conference for ESPN and said, 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.840 why are you not on TV? Like you're amazing at this, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:22.920 and I said, I just haven't done enough. They're not 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:24.920 willing to take a chance on me. She said, the 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.960 next time I'm out of town or on a break, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:28.000 you're hosting my show. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.200 She had a national show on ESPN, and I was like, okay. 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.720 Sure, And like two months later, her producers call me 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.760 and say, Jamal's on vacation. You're going to come in 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.480 and fill in for two days live hour national show 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.920 right off the bat. And I literally did it once. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.720 And the next day I had a call from Oberman 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:45.680 and Sports Center and all these places. They just needed 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:47.840 to see me do it. And I call her my 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.600 fairy career godmother because she saw something in me, and 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.760 she also wasn't worried about anybody ever taking her spot. 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.000 She was like, lift as you rise, the more women 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:57.480 I can get in, the more women I can help, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.200 and like give those opportunities to or the better. So 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.880 I try to do that all time. And then Dan Labatard, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.399 who's a radio show host who's programmer I was on 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.120 a million times, and not only was he a great 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.800 friend and a great ear and is a really accomplished 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.600 journalist and host, but he has a way of breaking 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.520 down the fourth wall in sports media and being honest 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.400 about how we can't know everything all the time, which 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.680 is sort of what the fan expects. And so when 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.399 he'd make a mistake, he would own it, or he 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.800 would jokingly in the middle of an interview, ask the 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.159 whole group of people on the show, does anyone know 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.880 who coaches the Memphis Grizzlies? Literally, can anyone in here 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:32.840 right now name the coach of the Memphis And it 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.439 would just sort of disarm people, because, especially as a 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.120 woman in the business, if you make a mistake, not 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.760 only do people think you don't belong, but now you've 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.639 crossed out the whole gender, like you're the reason that 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.439 no woman should ever work in sports because you misspoke once. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.160 And so for him to show me how you can 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.479 do that, it helped me learn that if I make 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.720 a mistake, don't get defensive, don't freak out, just be like, oh, yeah, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.040 that's what I meant, or oops, I mess that up, whatever, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.639 and keep it moving, because you can't be expected to 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:01.560 know everything all the time. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.399 I love hearing your story about Jamel Hill. She was 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.320 on Pretty Smart and was one of my favorite interviews, 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.760 and I asked her this question. I actually would love 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.159 to ask you this, because it makes sense that she 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.520 gravitated towards you. I think you both intertwine politics, socio 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.560 politics with sports in a way that not many people do. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.040 Is it because that's the lens through which you see 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.560 the world, or is it because you've had to because 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:34.360 you're a woman and so you can't disconnect those two things. 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.960 I think both. I think I see the world that 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:38.240 way because I'm a woman. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:43.600 So I've had those moments of seeing inequities or on fairness, 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.280 and I don't want that for anybody else. I also 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:51.439 think both my parents are lawyers, and there's this ingrained 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.160 sense of like digging a little deeper. We didn't fight 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:56.639 a lot, they didn't fight a lot, but there was 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.560 always this idea of like, well, why, what's the truth 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.520 behind that? It's the logic behind that, was the argument 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.520 behind that, and like being an intellectual about life and 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.119 like being very curious and understanding why and how and 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.320 where and so there's a couple moments that I look 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:10.240 back on now that I. 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:11.120