WEBVTT - A Climber Loses Her Grip 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin Haysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book. 0:00:24.556 --> 0:00:27.636 It's called the Other Side of Change, Who we become 0:00:27.876 --> 0:00:31.476 when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order 0:00:31.636 --> 0:00:35.396 now at Change withthmaya dot com slash book. The book 0:00:35.396 --> 0:00:37.916 comes out in January, and as a first time author, 0:00:38.396 --> 0:00:42.396 pre orders make a huge difference. Your early support will 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:45.756 really help define the eventual success of this book, and 0:00:45.836 --> 0:00:47.716 so if you can take a moment to order it now, 0:00:47.836 --> 0:00:50.596 I'd be so grateful. You can also find the link 0:00:50.676 --> 0:00:54.156 to pre order in our episode description. Okay, now onto 0:00:54.156 --> 0:00:54.556 the show. 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:08.036 I remember just having this stark contrast in my body 0:01:08.036 --> 0:01:11.236 of like, wow, I've I'm nailing this. I'm nailing this 0:01:11.276 --> 0:01:17.996 thing called life to immediately total fear, total regret, total questioning, 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:19.036 like why am I here? 0:01:19.156 --> 0:01:21.356 Why did I ever think this was a good idea. 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:26.276 Beth Rawden was kidnapped during a professional climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan. 0:01:26.836 --> 0:01:31.116 She was twenty years old. She survived the harrowing experience 0:01:31.316 --> 0:01:34.636 using the mentality she'd relied on as a climber to 0:01:34.676 --> 0:01:38.716 see pain as weakness and to suppress any negative feelings. 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:41.916 But when she returned home. She told me that she 0:01:42.036 --> 0:01:45.996 applied this same mentality to the trauma she'd just endured. 0:01:46.596 --> 0:01:51.716 I felt like I had built these walls around the 0:01:51.796 --> 0:01:55.756 memories and the experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I 0:01:55.756 --> 0:01:57.876 felt like I was surviving. And if I break down 0:01:57.916 --> 0:02:01.476 these walls and I just let these memories and thoughts out, 0:02:02.356 --> 0:02:04.836 that's totally unsafe. 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:11.716 On today's show, when the mindset that built you starts 0:02:11.756 --> 0:02:17.156 to break you. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies 0:02:17.236 --> 0:02:20.476 human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:20.796 --> 0:02:23.036 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:23.356 --> 0:02:34.276 in the face of a big change. In the year 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.716 two thousand, Beth Rawden was invited on a professional climbing 0:02:37.716 --> 0:02:41.756 trip with two other climbers. Her new boyfriend, Tommy Caldwell 0:02:41.916 --> 0:02:45.916 joined two, but Beth and her group were kidnapped by 0:02:45.956 --> 0:02:50.396 rebel forces. They were held hostage for six days. They 0:02:50.436 --> 0:02:54.676 witnessed brutal violence and endured freezing temperatures and extreme hunger. 0:02:55.356 --> 0:02:59.476 It is a remarkable story of survival. A few years 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:02.956 ago I interviewed Tommy about the kidnapping and its aftermath. 0:03:03.556 --> 0:03:06.956 At the time, I didn't know just how differently. Tommy 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:11.876 and Beth had processed the same In today's conversation, you're 0:03:11.876 --> 0:03:15.596 going to hear from Beth. Beth started climbing in the 0:03:15.596 --> 0:03:19.156 mid nineties when she was just a teenager. From the beginning, 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:22.636 she says, the climber's mentality just made sense to her. 0:03:23.396 --> 0:03:25.476 It's like, you suck it up to win. You know, 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:28.316 pain is weakness. You push through all of it to succeed. 0:03:28.916 --> 0:03:33.116 That was the mindset or kind of the language and 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:37.796 climbing that really was championed. And for me, that was 0:03:37.836 --> 0:03:40.236 something that really clicked with me because I was like, 0:03:40.276 --> 0:03:42.996 I can do this. This doesn't seem that hard. You know, 0:03:43.076 --> 0:03:45.836 if something hurts, I'll just ignore it. If I'm hungry, 0:03:45.836 --> 0:03:47.916 I'll just ignore it. If I'm cold, I'll just ignore it, 0:03:47.956 --> 0:03:50.316 and I'll just push through. I think I'm a pretty 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:53.116 driven person and stubborn as well, and so I think 0:03:53.116 --> 0:03:55.996 that's like a blessing and a curse, and that if 0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:58.676 I want to do something, I kind of just put 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:00.636 my head down until I really feel like I've put 0:04:00.636 --> 0:04:01.836 into my all. 0:04:01.996 --> 0:04:04.476 You ended up turning pro as a teenager. I read 0:04:04.516 --> 0:04:06.676 that you felt superior to everyone else. You were like 0:04:06.996 --> 0:04:09.436 on the mountains, being like all those suckers my high 0:04:09.436 --> 0:04:11.836 school friends who now are in college sitting in classrooms 0:04:11.916 --> 0:04:14.716 under fluorescent lights. Sucks to be them. And then there 0:04:14.756 --> 0:04:18.276 you are scaling these incredible mountains and setting records. So 0:04:19.036 --> 0:04:22.196 you are invited on a climbing trip to Kyrgyzstan when 0:04:22.236 --> 0:04:25.716 you're twenty years old, and I'm curious to know, as 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:29.676 this budding climber, what are your hopes and dreams for 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:30.796 this particular trip. 0:04:31.956 --> 0:04:34.956 I think for Kyrgyzstan, I hoped that it would kind 0:04:34.996 --> 0:04:37.516 of continue this path that I felt like I was on, 0:04:38.036 --> 0:04:43.716 pushing the limits of climbing higher, especially for females, And 0:04:43.756 --> 0:04:45.756 then I kind of wanted to broaden my resume and 0:04:45.876 --> 0:04:49.956 take it abroad. And we had had friends and teammates 0:04:49.956 --> 0:04:53.076 that had gone to the same region a few years 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:55.196 prior and had a great time and told us that 0:04:55.236 --> 0:04:57.796 it was kind of climber's paradise, so we thought we'd 0:04:58.116 --> 0:04:59.036 have the best trip ever. 0:04:59.876 --> 0:05:02.636 So what was it like when you first arrived? Set 0:05:02.636 --> 0:05:03.276 the scene for me? 0:05:03.676 --> 0:05:06.716 The first two weeks were amazing and everything we kind 0:05:06.756 --> 0:05:09.356 of hope for and more. It's this beautiful valley, the 0:05:09.396 --> 0:05:13.676 Karasu Valley, This bright green grass lined valley with these 0:05:13.756 --> 0:05:16.596 huge granite walls flanking each side and these big snow 0:05:16.636 --> 0:05:19.836 capped mountains at the back, and we were kind of 0:05:19.836 --> 0:05:22.476 in heaven. We were climbing during the day, we were 0:05:22.836 --> 0:05:25.036 meeting the locals who would come up and bring us 0:05:25.156 --> 0:05:28.036 fresh yak, milk and butter. And you know, we were 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:30.716 these four kids. Honestly at the time, I think John 0:05:30.756 --> 0:05:32.916 was the oldest one at twenty five, just kind of 0:05:32.956 --> 0:05:33.996 having the time of our lives. 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:38.236 Yeah, can you bring me back to that exact moment 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:41.036 when you first realized that you were in danger. 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:44.876 So it was about two weeks into the trip, and 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:47.756 we were camping on the side of this wall called 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:50.316 the Yellow Wall for climbers. When you camp on the 0:05:50.316 --> 0:05:52.636 side of a wall, you either can sleep on natural 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:56.076 ledges or you bring up these things called portal ledges, 0:05:56.156 --> 0:05:58.756 which are like hanging cots, and so we had two 0:05:58.836 --> 0:06:01.436 portal ledges, and we were about one thousand feet up. 0:06:01.516 --> 0:06:03.996 We had climbed up the day before and we had 0:06:03.996 --> 0:06:07.876 spent the night, and the previous day was Tommy's birthday, 0:06:07.956 --> 0:06:09.636 and so we like, you know, I had a little 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:13.236 chocolate pudding and stuff, and then right as the sky 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:16.636 was starting to lighten. The next morning, we heard these 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:20.876 really loud bangs. As climbers, there's things that you can 0:06:20.956 --> 0:06:23.076 expect and you can kind of try and prepare for. 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:26.396 And initially, I think all of us assumed that it 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:29.596 was rock fall. And then when it happened again, we 0:06:29.676 --> 0:06:33.076 looked down to the ground and we saw armed. 0:06:32.756 --> 0:06:33.996 Men shooting up at us. 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:35.116 Wow. 0:06:36.036 --> 0:06:42.516 And I remember just feeling this incredible contrast in my body. 0:06:42.556 --> 0:06:46.196 The night before, the two weeks before, the several months before, 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:49.796 I definitely felt like I was flying really high. I 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:52.316 felt like I was kind of winning in life because 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:55.396 it was this like kind of non traditional path that 0:06:55.476 --> 0:06:59.476 I was taking. You know, professional climbing wasn't very mainstream 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:03.156 at all. So I remember just having this stark contrast 0:07:03.156 --> 0:07:05.916 in my body of like, Wow, I've I'm nailing this. 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:07.316 I'm nailing this thing. 0:07:07.196 --> 0:07:13.676 Called life to immediate lee, total fear, total regret, total questioning, 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:15.676 like why am I here? Why did I ever think 0:07:15.716 --> 0:07:17.676 this was a good idea. I wish I was in college, 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:21.916 I wish I was at home, and just regret. 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:25.356 You hear these gunshots and you're looking down, you're seeing 0:07:25.396 --> 0:07:29.116 the source. Did you have any sense of the conflict 0:07:29.196 --> 0:07:31.636 that had been brewing in the country and who was 0:07:31.716 --> 0:07:33.716 who and who was shooting at you. I mean, how 0:07:33.716 --> 0:07:35.596 did you even start to put those pieces together. 0:07:36.236 --> 0:07:39.316 I had no idea of what was going on. We 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:43.836 had met locals and fatigues that were part of the 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:49.036 Kirsty and military, all super friendly kind We would share 0:07:49.076 --> 0:07:52.276 a meal or show them like a CD or you know, 0:07:52.756 --> 0:07:56.836 and so at first, you know, best case scenario, these 0:07:56.836 --> 0:07:58.756 were people that just wanted to rob us or like 0:07:58.796 --> 0:08:03.276 a misunderstanding or something like that. John volunteered to repel 0:08:03.356 --> 0:08:06.876 down first, and as soon as he got down, he 0:08:06.996 --> 0:08:11.556 radioed up immediately like super monotone, Everyone needs to come down. 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.876 Wow, tell me what happened next, Beth. 0:08:15.916 --> 0:08:18.796 Yeah, So one by one we all repelled down. 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:21.796 Like I had been crying a ton, so like my 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:23.956 shirt was soaked because of that. 0:08:24.556 --> 0:08:25.556 I was shaking. 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:29.116 I was scared, and I do remember when I first 0:08:29.156 --> 0:08:34.276 got down seeing these men and they had necklaces of bullets, 0:08:34.396 --> 0:08:37.716 they had you know, grenades on their belts, they had 0:08:37.796 --> 0:08:42.236 semi automatic rifles, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:45.076 is not a movie, this is not a joke, this 0:08:45.236 --> 0:08:47.596 is really bad. And I was just completely terrified. 0:08:47.916 --> 0:08:50.916 Yeah, how did those next few days unfold? 0:08:51.916 --> 0:08:56.156 So that first afternoon we got in the middle of 0:08:56.196 --> 0:09:00.556 this huge battle between the rebels and the Kyrgyzstan military. 0:09:01.036 --> 0:09:04.476 There was gunfire back and forth, Mortars were being shot. 0:09:05.036 --> 0:09:08.876 We saw people get killed. After that battle, for the 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:11.596 next next six days, we went in a big circle 0:09:11.636 --> 0:09:14.476 in the mountains. During the day, they would hide us 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:18.996 in the smallest crevices under a boulder near the river. 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:22.796 They'd cover us with pine boughs and branches, and then 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:25.636 at night we would walk to the next place. We 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.596 were at eleven or twelve thousand feet and I was 0:09:28.636 --> 0:09:31.236 wearing like a long sleeved shirt and pants, so we 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:34.996 were freezing. My jaw hurt from shivering so much. We 0:09:35.076 --> 0:09:38.156 shoved a few energy bars into our pockets and we 0:09:38.196 --> 0:09:41.556 would split those each day with our captors, so we 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:43.756 were surviving on like one hundred or two hundred calories 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:47.156 per day. For me, it was totally terrifying. I was 0:09:47.236 --> 0:09:50.716 crying all the time. I was starving, just like scared. 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:54.116 I'm a person who likes a plan. I'm like, what's happening, 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:55.316 what's the ending here? 0:09:55.596 --> 0:09:59.756 Yeah? Yeah? Were you seeking comfort in the three guys 0:09:59.796 --> 0:10:01.356 that were with you, I mean, how were you each 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:02.356 supporting one another? 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:06.956 So during those six days we were with two captors 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:09.836 and they split us up during the day, so they 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:13.956 put me with John and they put Jason and Tommy together. 0:10:14.436 --> 0:10:17.756 And so John was a huge support for me, and 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:21.116 he was just so good at redirecting my thoughts. He'd like, 0:10:21.156 --> 0:10:23.596 ask me about my parents, He'd ask about childhood, and 0:10:23.636 --> 0:10:25.836 so it was just a lot of distracting thoughts, you know, 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:28.276 on how to just pass the time, get through the 0:10:28.356 --> 0:10:29.436 day type of thing. 0:10:30.116 --> 0:10:32.356 Was there any element of you that was trying to 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:35.956 plot an idea for an escape and what ideas were 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:38.636 you able to tolerate not tolerate? 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:43.916 Yeah, So the whole time, John and Jason were talking 0:10:43.956 --> 0:10:46.996 about it, and they were talking about, Okay, how can 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:49.276 we do this, Like do we try and steal their gun? 0:10:49.436 --> 0:10:51.356 Do you know, if we're crossing a bridge, do we 0:10:51.396 --> 0:10:54.516 push them off the bridge? Do we go near a cliff? 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:58.516 And I just remember I was totally against it. I 0:10:58.556 --> 0:11:02.236 was like, I'm good at suffering. I can suffer, I 0:11:02.276 --> 0:11:04.356 can starve if something goes wrong. 0:11:04.716 --> 0:11:06.036 We've seen them kill people. 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:10.516 They're clearly not going to hold back if we try 0:11:10.516 --> 0:11:13.476 and escape or try and kill them, and so I 0:11:13.516 --> 0:11:14.796 thought it was a terrible idea. 0:11:15.196 --> 0:11:15.916 Tommy did too. 0:11:16.596 --> 0:11:19.476 I want to ask about your dynamic with Tommy in 0:11:19.516 --> 0:11:23.596 particular during these days, because he was your boyfriend, you 0:11:23.676 --> 0:11:27.396 had kind of very recently started dating before the trip, 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:29.196 you already even sure if you wanted to be together. 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:32.076 I mean, do you have any distinct memories in the 0:11:32.116 --> 0:11:34.156 evenings when you're all reunited and you were back with 0:11:34.196 --> 0:11:38.196 Tommy of what that dynamic was like and how it 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:41.476 was kind of rapidly evolving in these crazy circumstances. 0:11:42.756 --> 0:11:46.316 Honestly, for me, it was a relief to be paired 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:53.276 with John because I felt somewhat responsible for Tommy being there. 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:55.996 Jason and I had the same sponsor and they were 0:11:55.996 --> 0:11:59.156 sponsoring the trip, and Tommy was a different Companies athlete, 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.396 and so I felt responsible. But I was also very 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:05.156 scared for him, and so it felt like this other 0:12:05.876 --> 0:12:08.156 fear that I was taking on. 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:13.356 Bring me to day six of this hellscape. You were 0:12:13.396 --> 0:12:17.316 climbing this incredibly steep terrain. At this point, you were 0:12:17.356 --> 0:12:21.116 only with one of the captors. Sue, if you're going 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:24.636 to make your escape, now might be the only conceivable time. 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:28.156 So it was this ridge, like a steep grassy ledge 0:12:28.156 --> 0:12:29.836 that you can walk across, and then a steep section 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:31.596 where you kind of like do some climbing moves, and 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:34.676 then another steep grassy ledge. The entire time we were 0:12:34.676 --> 0:12:37.716 going up this ridge, John and Jason were like, now, 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:38.596 it's the perfect time. 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:40.276 It's four on one. 0:12:40.356 --> 0:12:45.076 Like, he's totally uncomfortable, and rationally, I was thinking, they're 0:12:45.116 --> 0:12:47.916 totally right. If there was ever a time, this is 0:12:47.956 --> 0:12:52.236 the time. But that's a terrible idea. Something could go wrong, 0:12:52.316 --> 0:12:55.836 anything could go wrong, and then we're dead, we're injured, 0:12:55.876 --> 0:12:59.436 like something happens. And so as we're all nearing the top, 0:13:00.156 --> 0:13:02.956 you can see Sue getting pretty excited to get off 0:13:02.996 --> 0:13:06.276 of this ridge because he's completely uncomfortable, and so he 0:13:06.356 --> 0:13:10.196 kind of starts to go ahead, and Tommy walks over 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:14.196 to me on one of these grassy ledges and he says, 0:13:14.676 --> 0:13:18.356 it's obvious that John and Jason aren't going to do this. 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:20.236 Do you think I should do this? 0:13:21.316 --> 0:13:25.036 And I just remember like looking at him and feeling 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:29.076 in my head, oh, it sounds so nice to not 0:13:29.756 --> 0:13:32.156 be held hostage anymore. It sounds so nice not to 0:13:32.156 --> 0:13:35.716 be in this situation. Of course, that would be wonderful 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:38.836 if we could get out, but there's no way I 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:41.796 could ever tell him yes to go up there, because 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:44.756 what if he can't do it, or what if Sue 0:13:44.756 --> 0:13:47.356 sees him coming pushes Tommy off, like oh my god, 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:50.036 you know, you know, like all the things are happening 0:13:50.116 --> 0:13:53.396 in my head, and I'm just staring at him and 0:13:53.476 --> 0:13:57.916 I don't say anything, and then I think he takes 0:13:57.956 --> 0:14:01.796 that as yes, you should go do this, and so 0:14:01.836 --> 0:14:05.716 Tommy climbs up beside Sue and grabs his gun strap 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:09.916 and pulls him off this ridge, and John and Jason 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:13.316 and I are near each other, and we see Sue's 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:16.876 body kind of like arc in the moonlight, and we 0:14:16.996 --> 0:14:21.476 hear him kind of collapse and crunch onto this ledge 0:14:21.516 --> 0:14:25.236 and then bounce off. And I just remember for me 0:14:26.996 --> 0:14:32.516 feeling so scared because here we are and we have 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:36.076 no idea where he went. Is he coming right back up? 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:39.876 Like what's going on? Like this complete unknown. I'd never 0:14:40.356 --> 0:14:44.716 had that visceral feeling of adrenaline before, so clearly where 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:48.196 all of a sudden, John and Jason and I just 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:51.876 sprinted to the top of this ridge where Tommy was 0:14:51.956 --> 0:14:55.516 and Tommy had broken down. He's like crumpled up in 0:14:55.596 --> 0:15:00.596 this ball, just sobbing and screaming and sobbing and screaming. 0:15:01.196 --> 0:15:03.956 I killed someone. I fucking killed someone. I killed someone, 0:15:03.996 --> 0:15:07.076 like over and over and over again. And I just 0:15:07.156 --> 0:15:11.956 remember trying to him down, telling him that I loved him. 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:14.436 He said, you know, like, how can you ever love me? 0:15:14.556 --> 0:15:16.036 How can anyone ever love me? 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:16.356 Now? 0:15:16.756 --> 0:15:20.236 And so just trying to like combat all those things 0:15:20.276 --> 0:15:23.196 that were coming out of him. And I do remember 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:26.356 thinking in that moment, I can never leave Tommy now. 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:29.236 Look at what he's going through. Look at what he 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:32.796 just did for us, the four of us, Like, I 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:33.836 can never leave him now. 0:15:34.876 --> 0:15:39.996 Wow. You would later learn that Sue had actually survived 0:15:40.036 --> 0:15:43.116 that fall, but in the moment, you weren't sure. So 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:45.956 the four of you made a run for it. You 0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:49.996 eventually reached a military outpost and then flew home to 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:53.396 the United States. What was going through your head when 0:15:53.436 --> 0:15:55.156 you stepped off the plane? 0:15:55.476 --> 0:15:58.836 You know, honestly, when we got home to the United States, 0:15:58.956 --> 0:16:01.756 it was just our parents. They met us at the airport. 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:07.516 I wanted to just run into their arms, you know, 0:16:07.996 --> 0:16:10.476 like of course, like a little girl like you know 0:16:10.516 --> 0:16:12.716 I was twenty. Yeah, I wanted to be just like 0:16:12.756 --> 0:16:15.676 their little little girl and have them like hold me 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:18.476 and comfort me and tell me it's going to be okay. 0:16:19.276 --> 0:16:22.396 And I don't know, I just felt like I needed 0:16:22.396 --> 0:16:27.716 to have this put together, we're fine facade, And so 0:16:27.836 --> 0:16:30.516 that's kind of how I walked off the plane. 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:33.476 We talked about the food that we had been given. 0:16:33.556 --> 0:16:35.796 We talked about how KLM. 0:16:35.436 --> 0:16:39.116 Upgraded us, you know, just like all the surface level details, 0:16:39.676 --> 0:16:42.636 but none of the oh my god, I. 0:16:42.596 --> 0:16:44.836 Am so scared, like, how can I ever go back 0:16:44.876 --> 0:16:45.316 to normal? 0:16:46.436 --> 0:16:49.676 What do you think motivated this response in you? Why 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:50.996 didn't you just run and hug them? 0:16:52.196 --> 0:16:54.596 I think it was probably a lot of things, Like 0:16:54.956 --> 0:16:58.036 it'd probably be nice to point to one thing, but 0:16:58.236 --> 0:17:02.036 I do think it was part of the climbing culture 0:17:02.116 --> 0:17:07.876 back then to very much celebrate skirting death as an accomplishment. 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:10.036 If you skirt to death getting to. 0:17:09.996 --> 0:17:13.116 The summit of a mountain, not only were you a 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:16.316 hero for summoning the mountain, but wow, you like outran 0:17:16.436 --> 0:17:19.876 death somehow. And so we were just these kids, and 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:23.156 we outran death in one of the most sensational ways 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:27.836 I think back then, feelings in general, like therapy in 0:17:27.916 --> 0:17:31.236 general just wasn't as talked about, it wasn't as widely accepted, 0:17:31.636 --> 0:17:33.476 and so I think I just didn't also have the 0:17:33.596 --> 0:17:37.556 language or probably the comfort to know how to say that, 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:40.116 like how to put words to this type of thing. 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:43.596 Yeah, did you feel that there was anything that you, 0:17:43.836 --> 0:17:46.116 Beth needed to prove to yourself about the way that 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:49.596 you were going to respond to this traumatic episode? I 0:17:49.636 --> 0:17:51.476 mean you might not even have called it a traumatic 0:17:51.516 --> 0:17:54.356 episode to your point about lacking the language, but did 0:17:54.396 --> 0:17:56.356 you come back and say, like, you know, I need 0:17:56.356 --> 0:17:58.636 to prove to myself that I'm tough and I can 0:17:58.676 --> 0:17:59.196 handle this. 0:18:00.356 --> 0:18:04.916 I feel like there was probably parts of that, but 0:18:05.116 --> 0:18:07.836 maybe if I were to go a step further, Yeah, 0:18:07.876 --> 0:18:10.236 it was more like I I wanted to prove to 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:14.716 myself that I hadn't messed up by choosing this climbing path. 0:18:15.836 --> 0:18:17.516 It was more like, no. 0:18:17.596 --> 0:18:20.236 You didn't make a mistake. You're gonna be okay, this 0:18:20.396 --> 0:18:21.876 is okay, this is what happens. 0:18:22.196 --> 0:18:23.956 Yeah, you didn't want it to be like an indictment 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:26.956 on your choices and your decision making abilities, right, Like 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:29.716 I have an identity of someone who's responsible and makes 0:18:29.756 --> 0:18:35.596 good choices, and I can't let this experience challenge that, 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:40.076 and so instead I will essentially engage in denial about 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:41.076 my suffering. 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:45.636 Exactly, Yeah, exactly, and jump on the bandwagon of this 0:18:45.716 --> 0:18:49.556 made me stronger. I will rise above this and be 0:18:49.556 --> 0:18:50.156 better for it. 0:18:54.076 --> 0:18:56.276 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:18:56.316 --> 0:19:12.556 of plans. After Beth and Tommy returned home from Kyrgyzthan, 0:19:13.196 --> 0:19:16.756 they moved in together and got married. They threw themselves 0:19:16.796 --> 0:19:21.556 back into climbing, setting individual records and quickly establishing themselves 0:19:21.636 --> 0:19:24.836 as the it couple of climbing. They even had a 0:19:24.876 --> 0:19:28.036 movie made about them, called The First Couple of Rock. 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:31.716 But while Tommy was able to find some normalcy in 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:35.796 his day to day life, Beth was struggling. When you 0:19:35.836 --> 0:19:40.516 came back, what were the first signs that something wasn't 0:19:40.596 --> 0:19:44.836 right in your mind and your body, and that, despite 0:19:44.836 --> 0:19:47.796 your best efforts, these memories of your time in Kyrgyzstan 0:19:47.956 --> 0:19:50.436 were going to be harmful and intrusive? 0:19:51.036 --> 0:19:53.676 Gosh, I feel like it was pretty immediate. I think 0:19:53.716 --> 0:19:56.916 there were so many signs and so many indications, and 0:19:57.036 --> 0:19:59.596 just like one by one, I tried to bat them down. 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:04.116 I had nightmares immediately. I had nightmares that our captors 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:06.956 came to find us, that they were in my parents' house, 0:20:07.476 --> 0:20:11.676 that they were on the block. I was terrified of 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:14.076 just the world. I felt like the world was a 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:17.876 very unsafe place because our captors were coming for us. 0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:22.276 I was terrified to be hungry because any hunger reminded 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:25.356 me of being hungry in Kyrgyzstan, because we were hungry 0:20:25.356 --> 0:20:28.396 the whole time. So I had food with me all 0:20:28.436 --> 0:20:30.516 the time, and not just like a snack, like I 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:33.276 would bring meals with me all the time wherever we went, 0:20:33.436 --> 0:20:37.836 just in case. I was really scared to be cold 0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:40.036 again because we were cold the whole time. 0:20:40.156 --> 0:20:41.316 So just all these. 0:20:41.116 --> 0:20:44.596 Things should have been signs, and I just thought they 0:20:44.596 --> 0:20:48.076 were like things I needed to like, quote unquote deal with. 0:20:48.396 --> 0:20:51.236 Yeah, how did your belief now that the world was 0:20:51.276 --> 0:20:53.996 an unsafe place manifest. 0:20:53.876 --> 0:20:59.196 Not in any proud ways. I was scared around anyone 0:20:59.236 --> 0:21:04.796 that resembled our captors, so anybody with dark skin, dark hair, 0:21:05.516 --> 0:21:11.316 certain clothing, And I was really terrified to be around 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:15.196 big groups of people, just anything where I didn't feel 0:21:15.196 --> 0:21:17.156 like I could have a very tight grip of control, 0:21:17.516 --> 0:21:19.836 like if I could control the situation, right, like I 0:21:19.876 --> 0:21:22.236 know these people, I know this place, I know this house, 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:23.996 I know this driveway, I know this car. 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:25.476 I felt much more safe. 0:21:25.556 --> 0:21:28.356 But if there was any form of being out of control, 0:21:28.596 --> 0:21:30.876 like who is this person, Oh, that's Bob's friend. 0:21:30.916 --> 0:21:33.196 I didn't invite Bob's friend. Who is Bob's friend? I 0:21:33.236 --> 0:21:34.316 got really scared about that. 0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:38.876 Yeah, and paranoid. It sounds like totally yeah, yeah. What 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:41.596 were the people in your life telling you in this 0:21:41.716 --> 0:21:44.716 time to try to comfort you? And how were those 0:21:44.796 --> 0:21:46.516 words landing for you in that moment. 0:21:47.516 --> 0:21:51.036 So I went to therapy for the nightmares. I was like, 0:21:51.116 --> 0:21:53.676 still on my parents' insurance, so I forget. I think 0:21:53.676 --> 0:21:56.236 I got six sessions or something like that, and she 0:21:56.436 --> 0:22:00.316 helped me. Like I thought, I checked the box, get 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:02.076 rid of the nightmares, and then I thought I was good. 0:22:02.716 --> 0:22:05.916 But really I didn't talk to hardly anybody about it. 0:22:06.156 --> 0:22:08.836 Like Tommy and I never talked about Kyrgyzstan. We talked 0:22:08.836 --> 0:22:11.836 about logistics, like these people want to interview us and 0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:15.196 or the movie might happen, But we never talked about 0:22:15.676 --> 0:22:20.396 my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear, what he was going through. 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:23.356 He said he was fine. I was like, that sounds 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:25.756 nice to be fine. Maybe I should try what you're doing. 0:22:26.596 --> 0:22:28.836 And so I didn't really talk. I felt like I 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:30.436 just controlled my own little bubble. 0:22:30.876 --> 0:22:34.156 Yeah, it is stunning to me that you two never 0:22:34.196 --> 0:22:37.796 talked about this. Were you taking his lead or were 0:22:37.836 --> 0:22:40.716 you just going with your gut instinct like the best 0:22:40.716 --> 0:22:42.956