Speaker 1: Pushkin Haysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book.
Speaker 1: It's called the Other Side of Change, Who we become
Speaker 1: when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order
Speaker 1: now at Change withthmaya dot com slash book. The book
Speaker 1: comes out in January, and as a first time author,
Speaker 1: pre orders make a huge difference. Your early support will
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Speaker 1: so if you can take a moment to order it now,
Speaker 1: I'd be so grateful. You can also find the link
Speaker 1: to pre order in our episode description. Okay, now onto
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 2: I remember just having this stark contrast in my body
Speaker 2: of like, wow, I've I'm nailing this. I'm nailing this
Speaker 2: thing called life to immediately total fear, total regret, total questioning,
Speaker 2: like why am I here?
Speaker 3: Why did I ever think this was a good idea.
Speaker 1: Beth Rawden was kidnapped during a professional climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan.
Speaker 1: She was twenty years old. She survived the harrowing experience
Speaker 1: using the mentality she'd relied on as a climber to
Speaker 1: see pain as weakness and to suppress any negative feelings.
Speaker 1: But when she returned home. She told me that she
Speaker 1: applied this same mentality to the trauma she'd just endured.
Speaker 2: I felt like I had built these walls around the
Speaker 2: memories and the experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I
Speaker 2: felt like I was surviving. And if I break down
Speaker 2: these walls and I just let these memories and thoughts out,
Speaker 2: that's totally unsafe.
Speaker 1: On today's show, when the mindset that built you starts
Speaker 1: to break you. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies
Speaker 1: human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. In the year
Speaker 1: two thousand, Beth Rawden was invited on a professional climbing
Speaker 1: trip with two other climbers. Her new boyfriend, Tommy Caldwell
Speaker 1: joined two, but Beth and her group were kidnapped by
Speaker 1: rebel forces. They were held hostage for six days. They
Speaker 1: witnessed brutal violence and endured freezing temperatures and extreme hunger.
Speaker 1: It is a remarkable story of survival. A few years
Speaker 1: ago I interviewed Tommy about the kidnapping and its aftermath.
Speaker 1: At the time, I didn't know just how differently. Tommy
Speaker 1: and Beth had processed the same In today's conversation, you're
Speaker 1: going to hear from Beth. Beth started climbing in the
Speaker 1: mid nineties when she was just a teenager. From the beginning,
Speaker 1: she says, the climber's mentality just made sense to her.
Speaker 2: It's like, you suck it up to win. You know,
Speaker 2: pain is weakness. You push through all of it to succeed.
Speaker 2: That was the mindset or kind of the language and
Speaker 2: climbing that really was championed. And for me, that was
Speaker 2: something that really clicked with me because I was like,
Speaker 2: I can do this. This doesn't seem that hard. You know,
Speaker 2: if something hurts, I'll just ignore it. If I'm hungry,
Speaker 2: I'll just ignore it. If I'm cold, I'll just ignore it,
Speaker 2: and I'll just push through. I think I'm a pretty
Speaker 2: driven person and stubborn as well, and so I think
Speaker 2: that's like a blessing and a curse, and that if
Speaker 2: I want to do something, I kind of just put
Speaker 2: my head down until I really feel like I've put
Speaker 2: into my all.
Speaker 1: You ended up turning pro as a teenager. I read
Speaker 1: that you felt superior to everyone else. You were like
Speaker 1: on the mountains, being like all those suckers my high
Speaker 1: school friends who now are in college sitting in classrooms
Speaker 1: under fluorescent lights. Sucks to be them. And then there
Speaker 1: you are scaling these incredible mountains and setting records. So
Speaker 1: you are invited on a climbing trip to Kyrgyzstan when
Speaker 1: you're twenty years old, and I'm curious to know, as
Speaker 1: this budding climber, what are your hopes and dreams for
Speaker 1: this particular trip.
Speaker 2: I think for Kyrgyzstan, I hoped that it would kind
Speaker 2: of continue this path that I felt like I was on,
Speaker 2: pushing the limits of climbing higher, especially for females, And
Speaker 2: then I kind of wanted to broaden my resume and
Speaker 2: take it abroad. And we had had friends and teammates
Speaker 2: that had gone to the same region a few years
Speaker 2: prior and had a great time and told us that
Speaker 2: it was kind of climber's paradise, so we thought we'd
Speaker 2: have the best trip ever.
Speaker 1: So what was it like when you first arrived? Set
Speaker 1: the scene for me?
Speaker 2: The first two weeks were amazing and everything we kind
Speaker 2: of hope for and more. It's this beautiful valley, the
Speaker 2: Karasu Valley, This bright green grass lined valley with these
Speaker 2: huge granite walls flanking each side and these big snow
Speaker 2: capped mountains at the back, and we were kind of
Speaker 2: in heaven. We were climbing during the day, we were
Speaker 2: meeting the locals who would come up and bring us
Speaker 2: fresh yak, milk and butter. And you know, we were
Speaker 2: these four kids. Honestly at the time, I think John
Speaker 2: was the oldest one at twenty five, just kind of
Speaker 2: having the time of our lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you bring me back to that exact moment
Speaker 1: when you first realized that you were in danger.
Speaker 2: So it was about two weeks into the trip, and
Speaker 2: we were camping on the side of this wall called
Speaker 2: the Yellow Wall for climbers. When you camp on the
Speaker 2: side of a wall, you either can sleep on natural
Speaker 2: ledges or you bring up these things called portal ledges,
Speaker 2: which are like hanging cots, and so we had two
Speaker 2: portal ledges, and we were about one thousand feet up.
Speaker 2: We had climbed up the day before and we had
Speaker 2: spent the night, and the previous day was Tommy's birthday,
Speaker 2: and so we like, you know, I had a little
Speaker 2: chocolate pudding and stuff, and then right as the sky
Speaker 2: was starting to lighten. The next morning, we heard these
Speaker 2: really loud bangs. As climbers, there's things that you can
Speaker 2: expect and you can kind of try and prepare for.
Speaker 2: And initially, I think all of us assumed that it
Speaker 2: was rock fall. And then when it happened again, we
Speaker 2: looked down to the ground and we saw armed.
Speaker 3: Men shooting up at us.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And I remember just feeling this incredible contrast in my body.
Speaker 2: The night before, the two weeks before, the several months before,
Speaker 2: I definitely felt like I was flying really high. I
Speaker 2: felt like I was kind of winning in life because
Speaker 2: it was this like kind of non traditional path that
Speaker 2: I was taking. You know, professional climbing wasn't very mainstream
Speaker 2: at all. So I remember just having this stark contrast
Speaker 2: in my body of like, Wow, I've I'm nailing this.
Speaker 3: I'm nailing this thing.
Speaker 2: Called life to immediate lee, total fear, total regret, total questioning,
Speaker 2: like why am I here? Why did I ever think
Speaker 2: this was a good idea. I wish I was in college,
Speaker 2: I wish I was at home, and just regret.
Speaker 1: You hear these gunshots and you're looking down, you're seeing
Speaker 1: the source. Did you have any sense of the conflict
Speaker 1: that had been brewing in the country and who was
Speaker 1: who and who was shooting at you. I mean, how
Speaker 1: did you even start to put those pieces together.
Speaker 2: I had no idea of what was going on. We
Speaker 2: had met locals and fatigues that were part of the
Speaker 2: Kirsty and military, all super friendly kind We would share
Speaker 2: a meal or show them like a CD or you know,
Speaker 2: and so at first, you know, best case scenario, these
Speaker 2: were people that just wanted to rob us or like
Speaker 2: a misunderstanding or something like that. John volunteered to repel
Speaker 2: down first, and as soon as he got down, he
Speaker 2: radioed up immediately like super monotone, Everyone needs to come down.
Speaker 1: Wow, tell me what happened next, Beth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So one by one we all repelled down.
Speaker 2: Like I had been crying a ton, so like my
Speaker 2: shirt was soaked because of that.
Speaker 3: I was shaking.
Speaker 2: I was scared, and I do remember when I first
Speaker 2: got down seeing these men and they had necklaces of bullets,
Speaker 2: they had you know, grenades on their belts, they had
Speaker 2: semi automatic rifles, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this
Speaker 2: is not a movie, this is not a joke, this
Speaker 2: is really bad. And I was just completely terrified.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did those next few days unfold?
Speaker 2: So that first afternoon we got in the middle of
Speaker 2: this huge battle between the rebels and the Kyrgyzstan military.
Speaker 2: There was gunfire back and forth, Mortars were being shot.
Speaker 2: We saw people get killed. After that battle, for the
Speaker 2: next next six days, we went in a big circle
Speaker 2: in the mountains. During the day, they would hide us
Speaker 2: in the smallest crevices under a boulder near the river.
Speaker 2: They'd cover us with pine boughs and branches, and then
Speaker 2: at night we would walk to the next place. We
Speaker 2: were at eleven or twelve thousand feet and I was
Speaker 2: wearing like a long sleeved shirt and pants, so we
Speaker 2: were freezing. My jaw hurt from shivering so much. We
Speaker 2: shoved a few energy bars into our pockets and we
Speaker 2: would split those each day with our captors, so we
Speaker 2: were surviving on like one hundred or two hundred calories
Speaker 2: per day. For me, it was totally terrifying. I was
Speaker 2: crying all the time. I was starving, just like scared.
Speaker 2: I'm a person who likes a plan. I'm like, what's happening,
Speaker 2: what's the ending here?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? Were you seeking comfort in the three guys
Speaker 1: that were with you, I mean, how were you each
Speaker 1: supporting one another?
Speaker 2: So during those six days we were with two captors
Speaker 2: and they split us up during the day, so they
Speaker 2: put me with John and they put Jason and Tommy together.
Speaker 2: And so John was a huge support for me, and
Speaker 2: he was just so good at redirecting my thoughts. He'd like,
Speaker 2: ask me about my parents, He'd ask about childhood, and
Speaker 2: so it was just a lot of distracting thoughts, you know,
Speaker 2: on how to just pass the time, get through the
Speaker 2: day type of thing.
Speaker 1: Was there any element of you that was trying to
Speaker 1: plot an idea for an escape and what ideas were
Speaker 1: you able to tolerate not tolerate?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the whole time, John and Jason were talking
Speaker 2: about it, and they were talking about, Okay, how can
Speaker 2: we do this, Like do we try and steal their gun?
Speaker 2: Do you know, if we're crossing a bridge, do we
Speaker 2: push them off the bridge? Do we go near a cliff?
Speaker 2: And I just remember I was totally against it. I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm good at suffering. I can suffer, I
Speaker 2: can starve if something goes wrong.
Speaker 3: We've seen them kill people.
Speaker 2: They're clearly not going to hold back if we try
Speaker 2: and escape or try and kill them, and so I
Speaker 2: thought it was a terrible idea.
Speaker 3: Tommy did too.
Speaker 1: I want to ask about your dynamic with Tommy in
Speaker 1: particular during these days, because he was your boyfriend, you
Speaker 1: had kind of very recently started dating before the trip,
Speaker 1: you already even sure if you wanted to be together.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have any distinct memories in the
Speaker 1: evenings when you're all reunited and you were back with
Speaker 1: Tommy of what that dynamic was like and how it
Speaker 1: was kind of rapidly evolving in these crazy circumstances.
Speaker 2: Honestly, for me, it was a relief to be paired
Speaker 2: with John because I felt somewhat responsible for Tommy being there.
Speaker 2: Jason and I had the same sponsor and they were
Speaker 2: sponsoring the trip, and Tommy was a different Companies athlete,
Speaker 2: and so I felt responsible. But I was also very
Speaker 2: scared for him, and so it felt like this other
Speaker 2: fear that I was taking on.
Speaker 1: Bring me to day six of this hellscape. You were
Speaker 1: climbing this incredibly steep terrain. At this point, you were
Speaker 1: only with one of the captors. Sue, if you're going
Speaker 1: to make your escape, now might be the only conceivable time.
Speaker 2: So it was this ridge, like a steep grassy ledge
Speaker 2: that you can walk across, and then a steep section
Speaker 2: where you kind of like do some climbing moves, and
Speaker 2: then another steep grassy ledge. The entire time we were
Speaker 2: going up this ridge, John and Jason were like, now,
Speaker 2: it's the perfect time.
Speaker 3: It's four on one.
Speaker 2: Like, he's totally uncomfortable, and rationally, I was thinking, they're
Speaker 2: totally right. If there was ever a time, this is
Speaker 2: the time. But that's a terrible idea. Something could go wrong,
Speaker 2: anything could go wrong, and then we're dead, we're injured,
Speaker 2: like something happens. And so as we're all nearing the top,
Speaker 2: you can see Sue getting pretty excited to get off
Speaker 2: of this ridge because he's completely uncomfortable, and so he
Speaker 2: kind of starts to go ahead, and Tommy walks over
Speaker 2: to me on one of these grassy ledges and he says,
Speaker 2: it's obvious that John and Jason aren't going to do this.
Speaker 3: Do you think I should do this?
Speaker 2: And I just remember like looking at him and feeling
Speaker 2: in my head, oh, it sounds so nice to not
Speaker 2: be held hostage anymore. It sounds so nice not to
Speaker 2: be in this situation. Of course, that would be wonderful
Speaker 2: if we could get out, but there's no way I
Speaker 2: could ever tell him yes to go up there, because
Speaker 2: what if he can't do it, or what if Sue
Speaker 2: sees him coming pushes Tommy off, like oh my god,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, like all the things are happening
Speaker 2: in my head, and I'm just staring at him and
Speaker 2: I don't say anything, and then I think he takes
Speaker 2: that as yes, you should go do this, and so
Speaker 2: Tommy climbs up beside Sue and grabs his gun strap
Speaker 2: and pulls him off this ridge, and John and Jason
Speaker 2: and I are near each other, and we see Sue's
Speaker 2: body kind of like arc in the moonlight, and we
Speaker 2: hear him kind of collapse and crunch onto this ledge
Speaker 2: and then bounce off. And I just remember for me
Speaker 2: feeling so scared because here we are and we have
Speaker 2: no idea where he went. Is he coming right back up?
Speaker 2: Like what's going on? Like this complete unknown. I'd never
Speaker 2: had that visceral feeling of adrenaline before, so clearly where
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, John and Jason and I just
Speaker 2: sprinted to the top of this ridge where Tommy was
Speaker 2: and Tommy had broken down. He's like crumpled up in
Speaker 2: this ball, just sobbing and screaming and sobbing and screaming.
Speaker 2: I killed someone. I fucking killed someone. I killed someone,
Speaker 2: like over and over and over again. And I just
Speaker 2: remember trying to him down, telling him that I loved him.
Speaker 2: He said, you know, like, how can you ever love me?
Speaker 2: How can anyone ever love me?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: And so just trying to like combat all those things
Speaker 2: that were coming out of him. And I do remember
Speaker 2: thinking in that moment, I can never leave Tommy now.
Speaker 2: Look at what he's going through. Look at what he
Speaker 2: just did for us, the four of us, Like, I
Speaker 2: can never leave him now.
Speaker 1: Wow. You would later learn that Sue had actually survived
Speaker 1: that fall, but in the moment, you weren't sure. So
Speaker 1: the four of you made a run for it. You
Speaker 1: eventually reached a military outpost and then flew home to
Speaker 1: the United States. What was going through your head when
Speaker 1: you stepped off the plane?
Speaker 2: You know, honestly, when we got home to the United States,
Speaker 2: it was just our parents. They met us at the airport.
Speaker 2: I wanted to just run into their arms, you know,
Speaker 2: like of course, like a little girl like you know
Speaker 2: I was twenty. Yeah, I wanted to be just like
Speaker 2: their little little girl and have them like hold me
Speaker 2: and comfort me and tell me it's going to be okay.
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just felt like I needed
Speaker 2: to have this put together, we're fine facade, And so
Speaker 2: that's kind of how I walked off the plane.
Speaker 3: We talked about the food that we had been given.
Speaker 3: We talked about how KLM.
Speaker 2: Upgraded us, you know, just like all the surface level details,
Speaker 2: but none of the oh my god, I.
Speaker 3: Am so scared, like, how can I ever go back
Speaker 3: to normal?
Speaker 1: What do you think motivated this response in you? Why
Speaker 1: didn't you just run and hug them?
Speaker 2: I think it was probably a lot of things, Like
Speaker 2: it'd probably be nice to point to one thing, but
Speaker 2: I do think it was part of the climbing culture
Speaker 2: back then to very much celebrate skirting death as an accomplishment.
Speaker 3: If you skirt to death getting to.
Speaker 2: The summit of a mountain, not only were you a
Speaker 2: hero for summoning the mountain, but wow, you like outran
Speaker 2: death somehow. And so we were just these kids, and
Speaker 2: we outran death in one of the most sensational ways
Speaker 2: I think back then, feelings in general, like therapy in
Speaker 2: general just wasn't as talked about, it wasn't as widely accepted,
Speaker 2: and so I think I just didn't also have the
Speaker 2: language or probably the comfort to know how to say that,
Speaker 2: like how to put words to this type of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you feel that there was anything that you,
Speaker 1: Beth needed to prove to yourself about the way that
Speaker 1: you were going to respond to this traumatic episode? I
Speaker 1: mean you might not even have called it a traumatic
Speaker 1: episode to your point about lacking the language, but did
Speaker 1: you come back and say, like, you know, I need
Speaker 1: to prove to myself that I'm tough and I can
Speaker 1: handle this.
Speaker 2: I feel like there was probably parts of that, but
Speaker 2: maybe if I were to go a step further, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was more like I I wanted to prove to
Speaker 2: myself that I hadn't messed up by choosing this climbing path.
Speaker 3: It was more like, no.
Speaker 2: You didn't make a mistake. You're gonna be okay, this
Speaker 2: is okay, this is what happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't want it to be like an indictment
Speaker 1: on your choices and your decision making abilities, right, Like
Speaker 1: I have an identity of someone who's responsible and makes
Speaker 1: good choices, and I can't let this experience challenge that,
Speaker 1: and so instead I will essentially engage in denial about
Speaker 1: my suffering.
Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, exactly, and jump on the bandwagon of this
Speaker 2: made me stronger. I will rise above this and be
Speaker 2: better for it.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. After Beth and Tommy returned home from Kyrgyzthan,
Speaker 1: they moved in together and got married. They threw themselves
Speaker 1: back into climbing, setting individual records and quickly establishing themselves
Speaker 1: as the it couple of climbing. They even had a
Speaker 1: movie made about them, called The First Couple of Rock.
Speaker 1: But while Tommy was able to find some normalcy in
Speaker 1: his day to day life, Beth was struggling. When you
Speaker 1: came back, what were the first signs that something wasn't
Speaker 1: right in your mind and your body, and that, despite
Speaker 1: your best efforts, these memories of your time in Kyrgyzstan
Speaker 1: were going to be harmful and intrusive?
Speaker 2: Gosh, I feel like it was pretty immediate. I think
Speaker 2: there were so many signs and so many indications, and
Speaker 2: just like one by one, I tried to bat them down.
Speaker 2: I had nightmares immediately. I had nightmares that our captors
Speaker 2: came to find us, that they were in my parents' house,
Speaker 2: that they were on the block. I was terrified of
Speaker 2: just the world. I felt like the world was a
Speaker 2: very unsafe place because our captors were coming for us.
Speaker 2: I was terrified to be hungry because any hunger reminded
Speaker 2: me of being hungry in Kyrgyzstan, because we were hungry
Speaker 2: the whole time. So I had food with me all
Speaker 2: the time, and not just like a snack, like I
Speaker 2: would bring meals with me all the time wherever we went,
Speaker 2: just in case. I was really scared to be cold
Speaker 2: again because we were cold the whole time.
Speaker 3: So just all these.
Speaker 2: Things should have been signs, and I just thought they
Speaker 2: were like things I needed to like, quote unquote deal with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did your belief now that the world was
Speaker 1: an unsafe place manifest.
Speaker 2: Not in any proud ways. I was scared around anyone
Speaker 2: that resembled our captors, so anybody with dark skin, dark hair,
Speaker 2: certain clothing, And I was really terrified to be around
Speaker 2: big groups of people, just anything where I didn't feel
Speaker 2: like I could have a very tight grip of control,
Speaker 2: like if I could control the situation, right, like I
Speaker 2: know these people, I know this place, I know this house,
Speaker 2: I know this driveway, I know this car.
Speaker 3: I felt much more safe.
Speaker 2: But if there was any form of being out of control,
Speaker 2: like who is this person, Oh, that's Bob's friend.
Speaker 3: I didn't invite Bob's friend. Who is Bob's friend? I
Speaker 3: got really scared about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and paranoid. It sounds like totally yeah, yeah. What
Speaker 1: were the people in your life telling you in this
Speaker 1: time to try to comfort you? And how were those
Speaker 1: words landing for you in that moment.
Speaker 2: So I went to therapy for the nightmares. I was like,
Speaker 2: still on my parents' insurance, so I forget. I think
Speaker 2: I got six sessions or something like that, and she
Speaker 2: helped me. Like I thought, I checked the box, get
Speaker 2: rid of the nightmares, and then I thought I was good.
Speaker 2: But really I didn't talk to hardly anybody about it.
Speaker 2: Like Tommy and I never talked about Kyrgyzstan. We talked
Speaker 2: about logistics, like these people want to interview us and
Speaker 2: or the movie might happen, But we never talked about
Speaker 2: my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear, what he was going through.
Speaker 2: He said he was fine. I was like, that sounds
Speaker 2: nice to be fine. Maybe I should try what you're doing.
Speaker 2: And so I didn't really talk. I felt like I
Speaker 2: just controlled my own little bubble.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is stunning to me that you two never
Speaker 1: talked about this. Were you taking his lead or were
Speaker 1: you just going with your gut instinct like the best
Speaker 1: way to move past this is just to ignore it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, honestly, Tommy always said he was fine.
Speaker 2: He said he was better knowing that Sue lived, he
Speaker 2: was stronger because of Kyrgyzstan, and he just like dove
Speaker 2: right back into climbing. And I just felt like I
Speaker 2: was in this realm of not being grounded in any way.
Speaker 2: And after a year of just watching him be fine
Speaker 2: as he said, I was like, I want to be
Speaker 2: fine too. Maybe I should just push all this down,
Speaker 2: bury it, immerse myself in climbing and move on.
Speaker 3: And so that's what I did.
Speaker 1: It's like, maybe if I play the part, maybe if
Speaker 1: I act this out long enough and just mimic whatever
Speaker 1: Tommy's doing, I too will have that same response exactly.
Speaker 1: You know. It's so interesting that, I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the many motivations for wanting to invite you on the show,
Speaker 1: is that we did have Tommy on a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans to talk about his experience. And when I
Speaker 1: heard about your different recounts of what had happened and
Speaker 1: how you processed the trauma and Kyrgyzstan, my mind was blown. Right.
Speaker 1: You talk in the book about how you would go
Speaker 1: on climbs together and he would be in the zone,
Speaker 1: in a flow state, totally pulled in and immersed in
Speaker 1: the experience, and your mind was just totally out there, right,
Speaker 1: I mean you felt like you were losing your grip
Speaker 1: on reality, Like how did it feel to have that
Speaker 1: disconnect between you two?
Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to hide it because I
Speaker 2: felt like I was doing something wrong. Like here we
Speaker 2: are on this climb together, Tommy's crushing it. I have
Speaker 2: the athletic and physical capability to crush it, and yet
Speaker 2: I am scared every second of death. And so I'm like,
Speaker 2: I can't admit this, like I'm just doing something wrong.
Speaker 2: So I would hide it. I would be like this
Speaker 2: is great, like look at us go.
Speaker 3: But I could never.
Speaker 2: Tell him or tell myself that there was clearly something
Speaker 2: else that I should probably confront and think about. I
Speaker 2: was like I'm just not there yet. I'm not trying
Speaker 2: hard enough, I'm not saying the right things enough, I'm
Speaker 2: not doing the right things. Like I just need to
Speaker 2: like correct this behavior and I'll get there.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 1: Did you ever come close during this time to revealing
Speaker 1: anything at all? Maybe when your emotions overwhelmed you past
Speaker 1: a point of comfort.
Speaker 2: I would definitely break down, But it was never I
Speaker 2: never said it was because of Kyrgyzstan or PTSD. It
Speaker 2: was like, I'm not strong enough. I need some more water. Oh,
Speaker 2: we're gonna have to climb into the dark. Like our
Speaker 2: lives were so funneled into just climbing and how to
Speaker 2: be better climbers, and if there was anything else, it
Speaker 2: was kind of dismissed. If it was like, oh, we're
Speaker 2: having trouble with this person or this thing, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: we don't worry about that sort of thing. Climbing is
Speaker 2: the way. And so if I was having these thoughts
Speaker 2: while climbing, it was because I wasn't trying hard enough,
Speaker 2: I wasn't focusing hard enough. I needed to do better
Speaker 2: and then I would get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of your days were dedicated to this pursuit.
Speaker 1: You were building a home in Yo seventy together, you
Speaker 1: were taking on climbing feats, both together and individually. You
Speaker 1: were known as like the power couple of climbing. It
Speaker 1: defined your relationship.
Speaker 2: Exactly, like everything was climbing, Like our friends were climbing.
Speaker 2: We never took a vacation or a trip that wasn't climbing.
Speaker 2: Everything was climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like the mindset that you cultivated as
Speaker 1: a climber, the ability to push through pain, to suppress
Speaker 1: your feelings, to be able to grin embarrass, the ability
Speaker 1: to compartmentalize that all of those traits made it extremely
Speaker 1: challenging for you to approach your trauma in the way
Speaker 1: that you needed to totally.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really important to state because I
Speaker 2: know it's easy to blame other things. And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that it's because of this entirely, but the climbing
Speaker 2: community at that time was so discouraging of any form
Speaker 2: of fear or trauma or weakness. I felt like if
Speaker 2: I admitted this, if people people knew I was going
Speaker 2: to therapy, if people knew that I was still scared,
Speaker 2: it would be such a stain on this reputation and
Speaker 2: this career that I built that it would be almost
Speaker 2: impossible to erase.
Speaker 3: So not only was.
Speaker 2: I afraid to do it, but then I was afraid
Speaker 2: that this would impact my marriage. Tommy was always like,
Speaker 2: therapy's dumb, Like they don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2: They didn't go through what we went through. How could
Speaker 2: they possibly help us? So I was afraid of how
Speaker 2: it would affect my relationship with Tommy, how it would
Speaker 2: affected my career, you know, just and I didn't want
Speaker 2: to be seen as a weak person. I wanted to
Speaker 2: be seen as this strong person. So there was like
Speaker 2: all this stuff wrapped up, and like why I thought
Speaker 2: it was not a good idea to confront it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you extra guarded about your vulnerable mental state
Speaker 1: in part because you're a woman and you were already
Speaker 1: facing such a stigma about your baseline levels of mental
Speaker 1: fortitude or physical strength.
Speaker 3: Exactly?
Speaker 2: Back then, there was like one seat at the table
Speaker 2: for women on an athlete team or on an expedition,
Speaker 2: and you were going with guys, and if the guys
Speaker 2: thought that you were weak in any imagination, then you
Speaker 2: were not invited. And that seat was quickly given to
Speaker 2: the next person, and so it was very much like
Speaker 2: I had to keep up this persona that I could fill.
Speaker 2: I could suck it up and I could suffer with
Speaker 2: the best of them. But I also had this other
Speaker 2: side of like, wow, like I have these huge feelings,
Speaker 2: I have these big emotions, and I need help processing them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you'd been with Tommy since your early twenties
Speaker 1: or two months before your trip to Kyrgyzstan, and then
Speaker 1: in your late twenties you made this life changing decision.
Speaker 1: You had told yourself at the top of that mountain,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to leave Tommy, and you decided to
Speaker 1: begin a new chapter of your life with your now husband, Randy.
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how complicated that was for you, Beth,
Speaker 1: to navigate, and I would love to hear what led
Speaker 1: you to that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's a great question.
Speaker 2: I started dating Tommy when I was nineteen, and we
Speaker 2: were together like nearly a decade, married at like twenty two,
Speaker 2: and I honestly thought after Kyrgyzstan that that was it.
Speaker 2: Like Tommy and I were good, you know, we were
Speaker 2: great climbing partners, we loved each other, but I think
Speaker 2: as I went through my twenties, I started noticing things
Speaker 2: in our relationship cracks. It would be this kind of
Speaker 2: similar with PTSD. I'd notice it and then I'd just
Speaker 2: like try and shove it away.
Speaker 1: What kind of things were you noticing that you learned
Speaker 1: to ignore?
Speaker 3: Uh, there was like a lot of things.
Speaker 2: I had so many issues with his parents, and to
Speaker 2: the point where I mean, as you know, I'm in
Speaker 2: my mid forties now I get but at the time,
Speaker 2: I was like, why aren't you putting us before your parents.
Speaker 3: I'm like, this seems like an easy.
Speaker 2: Thing to do, and he was just like, nope, we
Speaker 2: got to toe this line with my parents. And I'd
Speaker 2: be like, wow, I feel like a child.
Speaker 3: This is not okay. But I was like, okay, I
Speaker 3: guess we're towing this line.
Speaker 2: So like I feel like things like that, I started
Speaker 2: to build resentment before and again, I think with resentment,
Speaker 2: I was like, it's okay, and then when it would
Speaker 2: come back another time, I was like, oh, it's stronger,
Speaker 2: but it's okay, you know. And so I'd noticed these
Speaker 2: things come in and.
Speaker 1: When you would find yourself frustrated by, for example, things
Speaker 1: with his parents or other things that couples can just
Speaker 1: get annoyed at one another about would you find yourself
Speaker 1: ever saying but he saved your life, Beth, you have
Speaker 1: to stay with him.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: At times I would probably say that, but more so
Speaker 2: I was like, he's a great guy.
Speaker 3: You'll never find another great guy like this. He's a
Speaker 3: great guy.
Speaker 2: You'll never find another great guy like this because Tommy's
Speaker 2: a great guy, right, Like I don't want to ever
Speaker 2: say Tommy's not a great guy, but people can be
Speaker 2: great people and not the right person for you. And
Speaker 2: so I think I heard it so much from our friends,
Speaker 2: like Tommy's an amazing guy, that I think I just
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, I'm like screwed if I ever am
Speaker 2: not if I feel like this relationship isn't good, Like
Speaker 2: this is the best you're ever going to get. And
Speaker 2: I had been telling myself that. And then honestly, we
Speaker 2: built a house together. We framed the house, we put
Speaker 2: on the roof, like we just did, you know, like
Speaker 2: manual labor together for a whole year, and I know,
Speaker 2: like building a house with somebody's stressful, But it was
Speaker 2: the first time that we were doing something together that
Speaker 2: wasn't climbing. It was just like, you know, the mundane
Speaker 2: things of like, oh, if we're going to make dinner
Speaker 2: after a day of building, and like do we have
Speaker 2: anything to talk about? Am I interested in what he
Speaker 2: has to say? Is he interested in what I have
Speaker 2: to say? Like, I'm really tired of this building? Can
Speaker 2: we go to the beach? We've never gone to the
Speaker 2: beach before. That seems uncomfortable for us. Oh, we're not
Speaker 2: going to the beach because we don't know how to
Speaker 2: do it. You know. It's just like all those things
Speaker 2: that I'm like, oh, Wow, maybe this isn't it. I
Speaker 2: don't like how we're working together, Like I don't like
Speaker 2: how I I was just like, wow, I don't like this.
Speaker 3: And so after the house we went back to climbing.
Speaker 2: I was like, we have to get back to climbing
Speaker 2: because I can't be with that person. I don't want
Speaker 2: to be that person in that relationship. And so we
Speaker 2: got back to climbing and it kind of felt normalish.
Speaker 2: But I think once I had seen that, I started
Speaker 2: noticing cracks more and like maybe lighting resentment in maybe
Speaker 2: like deciding to dig deeper into things that I was
Speaker 2: bothered by that maybe I wouldn't have mentioned before. And
Speaker 2: then that's when I met Randy, and I was like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: maybe this isn't the relationship for me. So I met
Speaker 2: Randy while I was still married to Tommy, and I
Speaker 2: think I was always one of those people that was
Speaker 2: very judgy of people who had affairs or were unfaithful.
Speaker 2: I was like, well, if you're unhappy with this person,
Speaker 2: then just leave and then start the new one. I
Speaker 2: just thought it was like a very easy thing, Like
Speaker 2: I didn't ever think you had to stay with somebody,
Speaker 2: but I thought you needed to be cut and dry
Speaker 2: about it. And so I found myself in this very gosh,
Speaker 2: it was so hard, like sticky, messy, whatever you want
Speaker 2: to say, situation where I didn't know how to leave
Speaker 2: Tommy and take the leap, and so I ended up
Speaker 2: having an affair with Randy before I left my marriage
Speaker 2: to Tommy.
Speaker 1: When you and Randy got married, your life changed in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Right, He was a climber, but
Speaker 1: he was a more of a recreational climber. He had
Speaker 1: a much more well rounded life and normal job, and
Speaker 1: you guys also decided to have a child together. So
Speaker 1: much changed in terms of your orientation towards climbing, and
Speaker 1: what a focal point that had been for you.
Speaker 2: I think when I first was with Randy and like
Speaker 2: having this quote unquote more normal life, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: go out to dinner with his friends, or I go
Speaker 2: out to a company party. I just remember feeling like
Speaker 2: my brain.
Speaker 3: Was getting massaged.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, wow, people have these great, interesting,
Speaker 2: intelligent conversations about all sorts of things, because all I
Speaker 2: ever do is talk about climbing or the weather or
Speaker 2: my skin or whatever, you know, just like anything related
Speaker 2: to climbing. And so I think being with Randy and
Speaker 2: him opening my mind to like, there are so many
Speaker 2: paths you can take in life, and there are so
Speaker 2: many ways.
Speaker 3: To be happy.
Speaker 2: Whereas I was fully drinking the kool aid that climbing
Speaker 2: was the best thing out there. We were better than
Speaker 2: other people, We knew more than other people, Like we
Speaker 2: are doing the right thing, and everybody else is just
Speaker 2: living this inferior life. And so being with Randy and
Speaker 2: seeing like all these ways people are happy, they're interested
Speaker 2: in other things, they're challenged by other things, it was
Speaker 2: just kind of this refreshing thing. And then once we
Speaker 2: had our sun it's just another layer of how to
Speaker 2: live life. And even before our son was born, little
Speaker 2: things would bubble up.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm uncomfortable because I don't know this
Speaker 2: person and we can't invite them into our house. And
Speaker 2: he's like why, and you know, I try to explain
Speaker 2: the Kyrgyzstan thing and he was like, you're safe, They're safe,
Speaker 2: like this is all okay. And I felt very challenged
Speaker 2: and like a little bit resentful, and he's like, I
Speaker 2: think you could go to therapy about this, and I
Speaker 2: think you could probably heal a lot from this. And
Speaker 2: I was very much taken aback, and you know, said,
Speaker 2: you have no idea what I went through. I don't
Speaker 2: need to go to therapy. And so I was very
Speaker 2: stand offish at first. But when we had our son,
Speaker 2: it was very apparent that this little bubble and this
Speaker 2: like tight narrow path on how I felt safe in
Speaker 2: the world was not a way to raise a child.
Speaker 3: And so that's when I finally.
Speaker 2: Thought, Okay, maybe I should give this a shot and
Speaker 2: see if it's if it's possible to fifteen twenty years
Speaker 2: later heal from PTSD.
Speaker 1: It's one thing to commit to therapy and to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I need to change. I think it's another thing to
Speaker 1: lean in to the process of therapy and actually make
Speaker 1: yourself available to your therapist in a way that actually
Speaker 1: yields returns.
Speaker 2: Honestly, it was terrifying for me because I felt like
Speaker 2: I had built these walls around the memories and the
Speaker 2: experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I felt like I
Speaker 2: was surviving. I was like, I can go to sleep
Speaker 2: at night because I have these walls. I can fly
Speaker 2: on an airplane because I have these walls. And if
Speaker 2: I break down these walls and I just let these
Speaker 2: memories and thoughts out, that's totally unsafe. And so I
Speaker 2: remember the first session sitting down with her and saying
Speaker 2: that exact thing, like, are you sure, because I've been
Speaker 2: able to go fifteen years and if this makes it
Speaker 2: so I can't go anymore, that's not worth it to me.
Speaker 2: And she assured me and reassured me, and so I
Speaker 2: was like, I honestly just felt like I was taking
Speaker 2: a leap of f I was like, Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1: And was there a short term cost to letting that
Speaker 1: all out into the world, Because I know in the past,
Speaker 1: when I've had irrational fears and I've been in deeply
Speaker 1: avoidant modes, and then I engage in some kind of
Speaker 1: exposure therapy, And sometimes it's just mental exposure therapy, right,
Speaker 1: like allowing myself to engage in those like really uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: painful thoughts. It is more uncomfortable in the short term,
Speaker 1: but then over time you become less and less afraid
Speaker 1: of those thoughts. They become less and less threatening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there were maybe a
Speaker 2: few sessions where by the time I got home, I
Speaker 2: was still scared and on edge and raw. I remember
Speaker 2: there was one session in particular where you know, we
Speaker 2: would work through thoughts and memories that were particularly difficult
Speaker 2: for me, and one that was particularly difficult was the
Speaker 2: sound of Sue hitting the ledge Like I just did
Speaker 2: didn't let myself think about that for fifteen years, but
Speaker 2: if I started to think about it, I could tell
Speaker 2: I was getting very nervous and scared. So when that
Speaker 2: session in particular, I remember looking at my therapist and
Speaker 2: I could see her talking to me, and I could
Speaker 2: hear audibly that there were words and sounds coming out
Speaker 2: of her mouth, but I actually couldn't understand what she
Speaker 2: was saying. And that's exactly how I was after my
Speaker 2: first concussion. I would be at dinner with somebody and
Speaker 2: I could see and hear that they were talking to me,
Speaker 2: but I couldn't understand what they were saying. And I
Speaker 2: told her that, I said, Wow, I can't actually hear
Speaker 2: and understand what you're saying right now. This feels exactly
Speaker 2: like my concussion. And she said, sometimes when people go
Speaker 2: so deep into trauma, it's a similar response in their brain.
Speaker 2: And I feel like there were two other sessions I
Speaker 2: can remember that I had that similar experience that I
Speaker 2: went so deep that it felt like a brain injury
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 1: Do you remember a moment when you first realized, Hey,
Speaker 1: this confronting thing is working, I'm becoming less scared, Like,
Speaker 1: was there a moment where you would have acted one
Speaker 1: way in the past and then you found yourself acting differently.
Speaker 2: I don't think there was an actual moment when I
Speaker 2: think about it, but I do know I could feel
Speaker 2: my anxiety and my need for control loosen over time,
Speaker 2: and that I felt like I could actually it felt
Speaker 2: like taking a big breath and just relaxing into my
Speaker 2: body to the point where I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: feel like I've relaxed into my body for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm so happy that you have had that release. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, life changing. Yeah, Beth, obviously this is something
Speaker 1: you continue to work on, and you have faced new challenges.
Speaker 1: I've been following very closely your challenges with childbirth and
Speaker 1: what it did to your body and all the discomfort there.
Speaker 1: You've also recently talked about your experiences with peri menopause.
Speaker 1: You've been very very vocal about all of your injuries
Speaker 1: and for climbing and how that's affected you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you were like miss vulnerability, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: you ever thought you would be that person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's a nice thing to be
Speaker 2: able to have those conversations in a community that had
Speaker 2: so much positivity in my life, but also had these
Speaker 2: things that lurked in the shadows that weren't ever talked about.
Speaker 3: You know, our community has.
Speaker 2: So much death and trauma in it, you know, it's
Speaker 2: just the nature of what we do, and so I
Speaker 2: think to just know that those conversations are well, it's
Speaker 2: a wonderful thing.
Speaker 3: Honestly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you look back to your evolution. How would
Speaker 1: you describe your mindset today? So before it was very
Speaker 1: much a suck it up and persevere. How does it
Speaker 1: look different today?
Speaker 2: If at all, I feel like I'm generally still bath
Speaker 2: you know, like if I forget my water on a
Speaker 2: climb and I need to get to the top to
Speaker 2: get more, then I'm still that like, Okay, we got this,
Speaker 2: Like you can.
Speaker 3: Do this type of thing.
Speaker 2: But I'm also the type of person that i'm you know,
Speaker 2: if I'm able, i'd be like, I'm actually good going down.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't need to go to the top.
Speaker 2: That's fine, This climb will be here tomorrow. I can
Speaker 2: come back then. So I think I'm just much more
Speaker 2: of like the feelings are okay, they're valid.
Speaker 3: You don't have to just be one way.
Speaker 2: To survive, which I feel like before I was always
Speaker 2: like there is one way for success and happiness and achievement,
Speaker 2: and if you deviate from that, bummer for you. And
Speaker 2: now I'm like, there's a million ways. Find your own
Speaker 2: way and it'll be great.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. Next week we're reairing my
Speaker 1: conversation with Tommy Caldwell so you can hear from him.
Speaker 1: Then if that story resonated with you, or if you
Speaker 1: faced your own version of confronting the past, we'd love
Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can reach out to me
Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker or through my newsletter
Speaker 1: at Changewmaya dot com. And next time, writer Sawhill Bloom
Speaker 1: talks about quitting the rat race and redefining what matters
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 4: As the years went by, I became more rather than
Speaker 4: less focused on money being the path to living a
Speaker 4: good life. I grew so convinced that like this one
Speaker 4: scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area
Speaker 4: of my life started to show cracks.
Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a
Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker
Speaker 1: See you next week to