1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Haysite Changers. I have exciting news. I've written a book. 2 00:00:24,556 --> 00:00:27,636 Speaker 1: It's called the Other Side of Change, Who we become 3 00:00:27,876 --> 00:00:31,476 Speaker 1: when life makes other plans. It's available for pre order 4 00:00:31,636 --> 00:00:35,396 Speaker 1: now at Change withthmaya dot com slash book. The book 5 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:37,916 Speaker 1: comes out in January, and as a first time author, 6 00:00:38,396 --> 00:00:42,396 Speaker 1: pre orders make a huge difference. Your early support will 7 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:45,756 Speaker 1: really help define the eventual success of this book, and 8 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 1: so if you can take a moment to order it now, 9 00:00:47,836 --> 00:00:50,596 Speaker 1: I'd be so grateful. You can also find the link 10 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:54,156 Speaker 1: to pre order in our episode description. Okay, now onto 11 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:54,556 Speaker 1: the show. 12 00:01:04,956 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 2: I remember just having this stark contrast in my body 13 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 2: of like, wow, I've I'm nailing this. I'm nailing this 14 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 2: thing called life to immediately total fear, total regret, total questioning, 15 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:19,036 Speaker 2: like why am I here? 16 00:01:19,156 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 3: Why did I ever think this was a good idea. 17 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:26,276 Speaker 1: Beth Rawden was kidnapped during a professional climbing expedition in Kyrgyzstan. 18 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:31,116 Speaker 1: She was twenty years old. She survived the harrowing experience 19 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: using the mentality she'd relied on as a climber to 20 00:01:34,676 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 1: see pain as weakness and to suppress any negative feelings. 21 00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 1: But when she returned home. She told me that she 22 00:01:42,036 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 1: applied this same mentality to the trauma she'd just endured. 23 00:01:46,596 --> 00:01:51,716 Speaker 2: I felt like I had built these walls around the 24 00:01:51,796 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 2: memories and the experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I 25 00:01:55,756 --> 00:01:57,876 Speaker 2: felt like I was surviving. And if I break down 26 00:01:57,916 --> 00:02:01,476 Speaker 2: these walls and I just let these memories and thoughts out, 27 00:02:02,356 --> 00:02:04,836 Speaker 2: that's totally unsafe. 28 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 1: On today's show, when the mindset that built you starts 29 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:17,156 Speaker 1: to break you. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies 30 00:02:17,236 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, 31 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 32 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. In the year 33 00:02:34,276 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: two thousand, Beth Rawden was invited on a professional climbing 34 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: trip with two other climbers. Her new boyfriend, Tommy Caldwell 35 00:02:41,916 --> 00:02:45,916 Speaker 1: joined two, but Beth and her group were kidnapped by 36 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: rebel forces. They were held hostage for six days. They 37 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: witnessed brutal violence and endured freezing temperatures and extreme hunger. 38 00:02:55,356 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: It is a remarkable story of survival. A few years 39 00:02:59,516 --> 00:03:02,956 Speaker 1: ago I interviewed Tommy about the kidnapping and its aftermath. 40 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 1: At the time, I didn't know just how differently. Tommy 41 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:11,876 Speaker 1: and Beth had processed the same In today's conversation, you're 42 00:03:11,876 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 1: going to hear from Beth. Beth started climbing in the 43 00:03:15,596 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: mid nineties when she was just a teenager. From the beginning, 44 00:03:19,236 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 1: she says, the climber's mentality just made sense to her. 45 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:25,476 Speaker 2: It's like, you suck it up to win. You know, 46 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 2: pain is weakness. You push through all of it to succeed. 47 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 2: That was the mindset or kind of the language and 48 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:37,796 Speaker 2: climbing that really was championed. And for me, that was 49 00:03:37,836 --> 00:03:40,236 Speaker 2: something that really clicked with me because I was like, 50 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:42,996 Speaker 2: I can do this. This doesn't seem that hard. You know, 51 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 2: if something hurts, I'll just ignore it. If I'm hungry, 52 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:47,916 Speaker 2: I'll just ignore it. If I'm cold, I'll just ignore it, 53 00:03:47,956 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 2: and I'll just push through. I think I'm a pretty 54 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 2: driven person and stubborn as well, and so I think 55 00:03:53,116 --> 00:03:55,996 Speaker 2: that's like a blessing and a curse, and that if 56 00:03:56,036 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 2: I want to do something, I kind of just put 57 00:03:58,676 --> 00:04:00,636 Speaker 2: my head down until I really feel like I've put 58 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:01,836 Speaker 2: into my all. 59 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:04,476 Speaker 1: You ended up turning pro as a teenager. I read 60 00:04:04,516 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 1: that you felt superior to everyone else. You were like 61 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: on the mountains, being like all those suckers my high 62 00:04:09,436 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 1: school friends who now are in college sitting in classrooms 63 00:04:11,916 --> 00:04:14,716 Speaker 1: under fluorescent lights. Sucks to be them. And then there 64 00:04:14,756 --> 00:04:18,276 Speaker 1: you are scaling these incredible mountains and setting records. So 65 00:04:19,036 --> 00:04:22,196 Speaker 1: you are invited on a climbing trip to Kyrgyzstan when 66 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:25,716 Speaker 1: you're twenty years old, and I'm curious to know, as 67 00:04:25,756 --> 00:04:29,676 Speaker 1: this budding climber, what are your hopes and dreams for 68 00:04:29,756 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: this particular trip. 69 00:04:31,956 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 2: I think for Kyrgyzstan, I hoped that it would kind 70 00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:37,516 Speaker 2: of continue this path that I felt like I was on, 71 00:04:38,036 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 2: pushing the limits of climbing higher, especially for females, And 72 00:04:43,756 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 2: then I kind of wanted to broaden my resume and 73 00:04:45,876 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 2: take it abroad. And we had had friends and teammates 74 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:53,076 Speaker 2: that had gone to the same region a few years 75 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 2: prior and had a great time and told us that 76 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:57,796 Speaker 2: it was kind of climber's paradise, so we thought we'd 77 00:04:58,116 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 2: have the best trip ever. 78 00:04:59,876 --> 00:05:02,636 Speaker 1: So what was it like when you first arrived? Set 79 00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 1: the scene for me? 80 00:05:03,676 --> 00:05:06,716 Speaker 2: The first two weeks were amazing and everything we kind 81 00:05:06,756 --> 00:05:09,356 Speaker 2: of hope for and more. It's this beautiful valley, the 82 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:13,676 Speaker 2: Karasu Valley, This bright green grass lined valley with these 83 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:16,596 Speaker 2: huge granite walls flanking each side and these big snow 84 00:05:16,636 --> 00:05:19,836 Speaker 2: capped mountains at the back, and we were kind of 85 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 2: in heaven. We were climbing during the day, we were 86 00:05:22,836 --> 00:05:25,036 Speaker 2: meeting the locals who would come up and bring us 87 00:05:25,156 --> 00:05:28,036 Speaker 2: fresh yak, milk and butter. And you know, we were 88 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:30,716 Speaker 2: these four kids. Honestly at the time, I think John 89 00:05:30,756 --> 00:05:32,916 Speaker 2: was the oldest one at twenty five, just kind of 90 00:05:32,956 --> 00:05:33,996 Speaker 2: having the time of our lives. 91 00:05:34,356 --> 00:05:38,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you bring me back to that exact moment 92 00:05:38,596 --> 00:05:41,036 Speaker 1: when you first realized that you were in danger. 93 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:44,876 Speaker 2: So it was about two weeks into the trip, and 94 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:47,756 Speaker 2: we were camping on the side of this wall called 95 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 2: the Yellow Wall for climbers. When you camp on the 96 00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:52,636 Speaker 2: side of a wall, you either can sleep on natural 97 00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 2: ledges or you bring up these things called portal ledges, 98 00:05:56,156 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 2: which are like hanging cots, and so we had two 99 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 2: portal ledges, and we were about one thousand feet up. 100 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:03,996 Speaker 2: We had climbed up the day before and we had 101 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 2: spent the night, and the previous day was Tommy's birthday, 102 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 2: and so we like, you know, I had a little 103 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 2: chocolate pudding and stuff, and then right as the sky 104 00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 2: was starting to lighten. The next morning, we heard these 105 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,876 Speaker 2: really loud bangs. As climbers, there's things that you can 106 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 2: expect and you can kind of try and prepare for. 107 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,396 Speaker 2: And initially, I think all of us assumed that it 108 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 2: was rock fall. And then when it happened again, we 109 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:33,076 Speaker 2: looked down to the ground and we saw armed. 110 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:33,996 Speaker 3: Men shooting up at us. 111 00:06:34,796 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: Wow. 112 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 2: And I remember just feeling this incredible contrast in my body. 113 00:06:42,556 --> 00:06:46,196 Speaker 2: The night before, the two weeks before, the several months before, 114 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:49,796 Speaker 2: I definitely felt like I was flying really high. I 115 00:06:49,836 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 2: felt like I was kind of winning in life because 116 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:55,396 Speaker 2: it was this like kind of non traditional path that 117 00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 2: I was taking. You know, professional climbing wasn't very mainstream 118 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 2: at all. So I remember just having this stark contrast 119 00:07:03,156 --> 00:07:05,916 Speaker 2: in my body of like, Wow, I've I'm nailing this. 120 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 3: I'm nailing this thing. 121 00:07:07,196 --> 00:07:13,676 Speaker 2: Called life to immediate lee, total fear, total regret, total questioning, 122 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 2: like why am I here? Why did I ever think 123 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 2: this was a good idea. I wish I was in college, 124 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 2: I wish I was at home, and just regret. 125 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: You hear these gunshots and you're looking down, you're seeing 126 00:07:25,396 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 1: the source. Did you have any sense of the conflict 127 00:07:29,196 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 1: that had been brewing in the country and who was 128 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: who and who was shooting at you. I mean, how 129 00:07:33,716 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 1: did you even start to put those pieces together. 130 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:39,316 Speaker 2: I had no idea of what was going on. We 131 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 2: had met locals and fatigues that were part of the 132 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:49,036 Speaker 2: Kirsty and military, all super friendly kind We would share 133 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:52,276 Speaker 2: a meal or show them like a CD or you know, 134 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 2: and so at first, you know, best case scenario, these 135 00:07:56,836 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 2: were people that just wanted to rob us or like 136 00:07:58,796 --> 00:08:03,276 Speaker 2: a misunderstanding or something like that. John volunteered to repel 137 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:06,876 Speaker 2: down first, and as soon as he got down, he 138 00:08:06,996 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 2: radioed up immediately like super monotone, Everyone needs to come down. 139 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,876 Speaker 1: Wow, tell me what happened next, Beth. 140 00:08:15,916 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, So one by one we all repelled down. 141 00:08:19,236 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 2: Like I had been crying a ton, so like my 142 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:23,956 Speaker 2: shirt was soaked because of that. 143 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 3: I was shaking. 144 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 2: I was scared, and I do remember when I first 145 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:34,276 Speaker 2: got down seeing these men and they had necklaces of bullets, 146 00:08:34,396 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 2: they had you know, grenades on their belts, they had 147 00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:42,236 Speaker 2: semi automatic rifles, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this 148 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 2: is not a movie, this is not a joke, this 149 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:47,596 Speaker 2: is really bad. And I was just completely terrified. 150 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:50,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did those next few days unfold? 151 00:08:51,916 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 2: So that first afternoon we got in the middle of 152 00:08:56,196 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 2: this huge battle between the rebels and the Kyrgyzstan military. 153 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:04,476 Speaker 2: There was gunfire back and forth, Mortars were being shot. 154 00:09:05,036 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 2: We saw people get killed. After that battle, for the 155 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:11,596 Speaker 2: next next six days, we went in a big circle 156 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 2: in the mountains. During the day, they would hide us 157 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 2: in the smallest crevices under a boulder near the river. 158 00:09:19,516 --> 00:09:22,796 Speaker 2: They'd cover us with pine boughs and branches, and then 159 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 2: at night we would walk to the next place. We 160 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 2: were at eleven or twelve thousand feet and I was 161 00:09:28,636 --> 00:09:31,236 Speaker 2: wearing like a long sleeved shirt and pants, so we 162 00:09:31,236 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 2: were freezing. My jaw hurt from shivering so much. We 163 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:38,156 Speaker 2: shoved a few energy bars into our pockets and we 164 00:09:38,196 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 2: would split those each day with our captors, so we 165 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:43,756 Speaker 2: were surviving on like one hundred or two hundred calories 166 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 2: per day. For me, it was totally terrifying. I was 167 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:50,716 Speaker 2: crying all the time. I was starving, just like scared. 168 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 2: I'm a person who likes a plan. I'm like, what's happening, 169 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 2: what's the ending here? 170 00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? Were you seeking comfort in the three guys 171 00:09:59,796 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 1: that were with you, I mean, how were you each 172 00:10:01,396 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: supporting one another? 173 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 2: So during those six days we were with two captors 174 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 2: and they split us up during the day, so they 175 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:13,956 Speaker 2: put me with John and they put Jason and Tommy together. 176 00:10:14,436 --> 00:10:17,756 Speaker 2: And so John was a huge support for me, and 177 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 2: he was just so good at redirecting my thoughts. He'd like, 178 00:10:21,156 --> 00:10:23,596 Speaker 2: ask me about my parents, He'd ask about childhood, and 179 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 2: so it was just a lot of distracting thoughts, you know, 180 00:10:26,116 --> 00:10:28,276 Speaker 2: on how to just pass the time, get through the 181 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:29,436 Speaker 2: day type of thing. 182 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:32,356 Speaker 1: Was there any element of you that was trying to 183 00:10:32,436 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 1: plot an idea for an escape and what ideas were 184 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 1: you able to tolerate not tolerate? 185 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the whole time, John and Jason were talking 186 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:46,996 Speaker 2: about it, and they were talking about, Okay, how can 187 00:10:47,036 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 2: we do this, Like do we try and steal their gun? 188 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:51,356 Speaker 2: Do you know, if we're crossing a bridge, do we 189 00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 2: push them off the bridge? Do we go near a cliff? 190 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:58,516 Speaker 2: And I just remember I was totally against it. I 191 00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:02,236 Speaker 2: was like, I'm good at suffering. I can suffer, I 192 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 2: can starve if something goes wrong. 193 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 3: We've seen them kill people. 194 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:10,516 Speaker 2: They're clearly not going to hold back if we try 195 00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 2: and escape or try and kill them, and so I 196 00:11:13,516 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 2: thought it was a terrible idea. 197 00:11:15,196 --> 00:11:15,916 Speaker 3: Tommy did too. 198 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: I want to ask about your dynamic with Tommy in 199 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: particular during these days, because he was your boyfriend, you 200 00:11:23,676 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: had kind of very recently started dating before the trip, 201 00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 1: you already even sure if you wanted to be together. 202 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 1: I mean, do you have any distinct memories in the 203 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 1: evenings when you're all reunited and you were back with 204 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 1: Tommy of what that dynamic was like and how it 205 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:41,476 Speaker 1: was kind of rapidly evolving in these crazy circumstances. 206 00:11:42,756 --> 00:11:46,316 Speaker 2: Honestly, for me, it was a relief to be paired 207 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 2: with John because I felt somewhat responsible for Tommy being there. 208 00:11:53,956 --> 00:11:55,996 Speaker 2: Jason and I had the same sponsor and they were 209 00:11:55,996 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 2: sponsoring the trip, and Tommy was a different Companies athlete, 210 00:11:59,436 --> 00:12:02,396 Speaker 2: and so I felt responsible. But I was also very 211 00:12:02,436 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 2: scared for him, and so it felt like this other 212 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 2: fear that I was taking on. 213 00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: Bring me to day six of this hellscape. You were 214 00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:17,316 Speaker 1: climbing this incredibly steep terrain. At this point, you were 215 00:12:17,356 --> 00:12:21,116 Speaker 1: only with one of the captors. Sue, if you're going 216 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:24,636 Speaker 1: to make your escape, now might be the only conceivable time. 217 00:12:25,316 --> 00:12:28,156 Speaker 2: So it was this ridge, like a steep grassy ledge 218 00:12:28,156 --> 00:12:29,836 Speaker 2: that you can walk across, and then a steep section 219 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:31,596 Speaker 2: where you kind of like do some climbing moves, and 220 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 2: then another steep grassy ledge. The entire time we were 221 00:12:34,676 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 2: going up this ridge, John and Jason were like, now, 222 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:38,596 Speaker 2: it's the perfect time. 223 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 3: It's four on one. 224 00:12:40,356 --> 00:12:45,076 Speaker 2: Like, he's totally uncomfortable, and rationally, I was thinking, they're 225 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:47,916 Speaker 2: totally right. If there was ever a time, this is 226 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:52,236 Speaker 2: the time. But that's a terrible idea. Something could go wrong, 227 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 2: anything could go wrong, and then we're dead, we're injured, 228 00:12:55,876 --> 00:12:59,436 Speaker 2: like something happens. And so as we're all nearing the top, 229 00:13:00,156 --> 00:13:02,956 Speaker 2: you can see Sue getting pretty excited to get off 230 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:06,276 Speaker 2: of this ridge because he's completely uncomfortable, and so he 231 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 2: kind of starts to go ahead, and Tommy walks over 232 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 2: to me on one of these grassy ledges and he says, 233 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:18,356 Speaker 2: it's obvious that John and Jason aren't going to do this. 234 00:13:18,956 --> 00:13:20,236 Speaker 3: Do you think I should do this? 235 00:13:21,316 --> 00:13:25,036 Speaker 2: And I just remember like looking at him and feeling 236 00:13:25,276 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 2: in my head, oh, it sounds so nice to not 237 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 2: be held hostage anymore. It sounds so nice not to 238 00:13:32,156 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 2: be in this situation. Of course, that would be wonderful 239 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 2: if we could get out, but there's no way I 240 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:41,796 Speaker 2: could ever tell him yes to go up there, because 241 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 2: what if he can't do it, or what if Sue 242 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:47,356 Speaker 2: sees him coming pushes Tommy off, like oh my god, 243 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:50,036 Speaker 2: you know, you know, like all the things are happening 244 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:53,396 Speaker 2: in my head, and I'm just staring at him and 245 00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 2: I don't say anything, and then I think he takes 246 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:01,796 Speaker 2: that as yes, you should go do this, and so 247 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 2: Tommy climbs up beside Sue and grabs his gun strap 248 00:14:05,796 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 2: and pulls him off this ridge, and John and Jason 249 00:14:09,916 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 2: and I are near each other, and we see Sue's 250 00:14:13,316 --> 00:14:16,876 Speaker 2: body kind of like arc in the moonlight, and we 251 00:14:16,996 --> 00:14:21,476 Speaker 2: hear him kind of collapse and crunch onto this ledge 252 00:14:21,516 --> 00:14:25,236 Speaker 2: and then bounce off. And I just remember for me 253 00:14:26,996 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 2: feeling so scared because here we are and we have 254 00:14:32,596 --> 00:14:36,076 Speaker 2: no idea where he went. Is he coming right back up? 255 00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:39,876 Speaker 2: Like what's going on? Like this complete unknown. I'd never 256 00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 2: had that visceral feeling of adrenaline before, so clearly where 257 00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:48,196 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, John and Jason and I just 258 00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:51,876 Speaker 2: sprinted to the top of this ridge where Tommy was 259 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 2: and Tommy had broken down. He's like crumpled up in 260 00:14:55,596 --> 00:15:00,596 Speaker 2: this ball, just sobbing and screaming and sobbing and screaming. 261 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:03,956 Speaker 2: I killed someone. I fucking killed someone. I killed someone, 262 00:15:03,996 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: like over and over and over again. And I just 263 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 2: remember trying to him down, telling him that I loved him. 264 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 2: He said, you know, like, how can you ever love me? 265 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 2: How can anyone ever love me? 266 00:15:16,116 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 3: Now? 267 00:15:16,756 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 2: And so just trying to like combat all those things 268 00:15:20,276 --> 00:15:23,196 Speaker 2: that were coming out of him. And I do remember 269 00:15:23,356 --> 00:15:26,356 Speaker 2: thinking in that moment, I can never leave Tommy now. 270 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 2: Look at what he's going through. Look at what he 271 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 2: just did for us, the four of us, Like, I 272 00:15:32,796 --> 00:15:33,836 Speaker 2: can never leave him now. 273 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:39,996 Speaker 1: Wow. You would later learn that Sue had actually survived 274 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:43,116 Speaker 1: that fall, but in the moment, you weren't sure. So 275 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: the four of you made a run for it. You 276 00:15:46,036 --> 00:15:49,996 Speaker 1: eventually reached a military outpost and then flew home to 277 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 1: the United States. What was going through your head when 278 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: you stepped off the plane? 279 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:58,836 Speaker 2: You know, honestly, when we got home to the United States, 280 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:01,756 Speaker 2: it was just our parents. They met us at the airport. 281 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 2: I wanted to just run into their arms, you know, 282 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 2: like of course, like a little girl like you know 283 00:16:10,516 --> 00:16:12,716 Speaker 2: I was twenty. Yeah, I wanted to be just like 284 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:15,676 Speaker 2: their little little girl and have them like hold me 285 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 2: and comfort me and tell me it's going to be okay. 286 00:16:19,276 --> 00:16:22,396 Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just felt like I needed 287 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 2: to have this put together, we're fine facade, And so 288 00:16:27,836 --> 00:16:30,516 Speaker 2: that's kind of how I walked off the plane. 289 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 3: We talked about the food that we had been given. 290 00:16:33,556 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 3: We talked about how KLM. 291 00:16:35,436 --> 00:16:39,116 Speaker 2: Upgraded us, you know, just like all the surface level details, 292 00:16:39,676 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 2: but none of the oh my god, I. 293 00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 3: Am so scared, like, how can I ever go back 294 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 3: to normal? 295 00:16:46,436 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: What do you think motivated this response in you? Why 296 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:50,996 Speaker 1: didn't you just run and hug them? 297 00:16:52,196 --> 00:16:54,596 Speaker 2: I think it was probably a lot of things, Like 298 00:16:54,956 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 2: it'd probably be nice to point to one thing, but 299 00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 2: I do think it was part of the climbing culture 300 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 2: back then to very much celebrate skirting death as an accomplishment. 301 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 3: If you skirt to death getting to. 302 00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 2: The summit of a mountain, not only were you a 303 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,316 Speaker 2: hero for summoning the mountain, but wow, you like outran 304 00:17:16,436 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 2: death somehow. And so we were just these kids, and 305 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 2: we outran death in one of the most sensational ways 306 00:17:24,316 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 2: I think back then, feelings in general, like therapy in 307 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:31,236 Speaker 2: general just wasn't as talked about, it wasn't as widely accepted, 308 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:33,476 Speaker 2: and so I think I just didn't also have the 309 00:17:33,596 --> 00:17:37,556 Speaker 2: language or probably the comfort to know how to say that, 310 00:17:38,276 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 2: like how to put words to this type of thing. 311 00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:43,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you feel that there was anything that you, 312 00:17:43,836 --> 00:17:46,116 Speaker 1: Beth needed to prove to yourself about the way that 313 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 1: you were going to respond to this traumatic episode? I 314 00:17:49,636 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 1: mean you might not even have called it a traumatic 315 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:54,356 Speaker 1: episode to your point about lacking the language, but did 316 00:17:54,396 --> 00:17:56,356 Speaker 1: you come back and say, like, you know, I need 317 00:17:56,356 --> 00:17:58,636 Speaker 1: to prove to myself that I'm tough and I can 318 00:17:58,676 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: handle this. 319 00:18:00,356 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 2: I feel like there was probably parts of that, but 320 00:18:05,116 --> 00:18:07,836 Speaker 2: maybe if I were to go a step further, Yeah, 321 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 2: it was more like I I wanted to prove to 322 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 2: myself that I hadn't messed up by choosing this climbing path. 323 00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 3: It was more like, no. 324 00:18:17,596 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 2: You didn't make a mistake. You're gonna be okay, this 325 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 2: is okay, this is what happens. 326 00:18:22,196 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't want it to be like an indictment 327 00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:26,956 Speaker 1: on your choices and your decision making abilities, right, Like 328 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 1: I have an identity of someone who's responsible and makes 329 00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:35,596 Speaker 1: good choices, and I can't let this experience challenge that, 330 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: and so instead I will essentially engage in denial about 331 00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 1: my suffering. 332 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 2: Exactly, Yeah, exactly, and jump on the bandwagon of this 333 00:18:45,716 --> 00:18:49,556 Speaker 2: made me stronger. I will rise above this and be 334 00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 2: better for it. 335 00:18:54,076 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 336 00:18:56,316 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 1: of plans. After Beth and Tommy returned home from Kyrgyzthan, 337 00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 1: they moved in together and got married. They threw themselves 338 00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:21,556 Speaker 1: back into climbing, setting individual records and quickly establishing themselves 339 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: as the it couple of climbing. They even had a 340 00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 1: movie made about them, called The First Couple of Rock. 341 00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 1: But while Tommy was able to find some normalcy in 342 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 1: his day to day life, Beth was struggling. When you 343 00:19:35,836 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 1: came back, what were the first signs that something wasn't 344 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:44,836 Speaker 1: right in your mind and your body, and that, despite 345 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: your best efforts, these memories of your time in Kyrgyzstan 346 00:19:47,956 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: were going to be harmful and intrusive? 347 00:19:51,036 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 2: Gosh, I feel like it was pretty immediate. I think 348 00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 2: there were so many signs and so many indications, and 349 00:19:57,036 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 2: just like one by one, I tried to bat them down. 350 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 2: I had nightmares immediately. I had nightmares that our captors 351 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 2: came to find us, that they were in my parents' house, 352 00:20:07,476 --> 00:20:11,676 Speaker 2: that they were on the block. I was terrified of 353 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 2: just the world. I felt like the world was a 354 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 2: very unsafe place because our captors were coming for us. 355 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 2: I was terrified to be hungry because any hunger reminded 356 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 2: me of being hungry in Kyrgyzstan, because we were hungry 357 00:20:25,356 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 2: the whole time. So I had food with me all 358 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:30,516 Speaker 2: the time, and not just like a snack, like I 359 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:33,276 Speaker 2: would bring meals with me all the time wherever we went, 360 00:20:33,436 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 2: just in case. I was really scared to be cold 361 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:40,036 Speaker 2: again because we were cold the whole time. 362 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:41,316 Speaker 3: So just all these. 363 00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:44,596 Speaker 2: Things should have been signs, and I just thought they 364 00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:48,076 Speaker 2: were like things I needed to like, quote unquote deal with. 365 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did your belief now that the world was 366 00:20:51,276 --> 00:20:53,996 Speaker 1: an unsafe place manifest. 367 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:59,196 Speaker 2: Not in any proud ways. I was scared around anyone 368 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:04,796 Speaker 2: that resembled our captors, so anybody with dark skin, dark hair, 369 00:21:05,516 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 2: certain clothing, And I was really terrified to be around 370 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:15,196 Speaker 2: big groups of people, just anything where I didn't feel 371 00:21:15,196 --> 00:21:17,156 Speaker 2: like I could have a very tight grip of control, 372 00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:19,836 Speaker 2: like if I could control the situation, right, like I 373 00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 2: know these people, I know this place, I know this house, 374 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 2: I know this driveway, I know this car. 375 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:25,476 Speaker 3: I felt much more safe. 376 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:28,356 Speaker 2: But if there was any form of being out of control, 377 00:21:28,596 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 2: like who is this person, Oh, that's Bob's friend. 378 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 3: I didn't invite Bob's friend. Who is Bob's friend? I 379 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 3: got really scared about that. 380 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:38,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, and paranoid. It sounds like totally yeah, yeah. What 381 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 1: were the people in your life telling you in this 382 00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 1: time to try to comfort you? And how were those 383 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 1: words landing for you in that moment. 384 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:51,036 Speaker 2: So I went to therapy for the nightmares. I was like, 385 00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 2: still on my parents' insurance, so I forget. I think 386 00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 2: I got six sessions or something like that, and she 387 00:21:56,436 --> 00:22:00,316 Speaker 2: helped me. Like I thought, I checked the box, get 388 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:02,076 Speaker 2: rid of the nightmares, and then I thought I was good. 389 00:22:02,716 --> 00:22:05,916 Speaker 2: But really I didn't talk to hardly anybody about it. 390 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:08,836 Speaker 2: Like Tommy and I never talked about Kyrgyzstan. We talked 391 00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 2: about logistics, like these people want to interview us and 392 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 2: or the movie might happen, But we never talked about 393 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:20,396 Speaker 2: my nightmares, my paranoia, my fear, what he was going through. 394 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 2: He said he was fine. I was like, that sounds 395 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:25,756 Speaker 2: nice to be fine. Maybe I should try what you're doing. 396 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 2: And so I didn't really talk. I felt like I 397 00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:30,436 Speaker 2: just controlled my own little bubble. 398 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:34,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is stunning to me that you two never 399 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 1: talked about this. Were you taking his lead or were 400 00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: you just going with your gut instinct like the best 401 00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 1: way to move past this is just to ignore it. 402 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, honestly, Tommy always said he was fine. 403 00:22:46,756 --> 00:22:51,276 Speaker 2: He said he was better knowing that Sue lived, he 404 00:22:51,396 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 2: was stronger because of Kyrgyzstan, and he just like dove 405 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:57,996 Speaker 2: right back into climbing. And I just felt like I 406 00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:01,716 Speaker 2: was in this realm of not being grounded in any way. 407 00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:05,236 Speaker 2: And after a year of just watching him be fine 408 00:23:05,316 --> 00:23:07,796 Speaker 2: as he said, I was like, I want to be 409 00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,956 Speaker 2: fine too. Maybe I should just push all this down, 410 00:23:11,116 --> 00:23:14,916 Speaker 2: bury it, immerse myself in climbing and move on. 411 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 3: And so that's what I did. 412 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:18,916 Speaker 1: It's like, maybe if I play the part, maybe if 413 00:23:18,956 --> 00:23:21,636 Speaker 1: I act this out long enough and just mimic whatever 414 00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:25,556 Speaker 1: Tommy's doing, I too will have that same response exactly. 415 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:27,916 Speaker 1: You know. It's so interesting that, I mean, one of 416 00:23:27,916 --> 00:23:30,916 Speaker 1: the many motivations for wanting to invite you on the show, 417 00:23:31,516 --> 00:23:34,236 Speaker 1: is that we did have Tommy on a slight change 418 00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 1: of plans to talk about his experience. And when I 419 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:42,076 Speaker 1: heard about your different recounts of what had happened and 420 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: how you processed the trauma and Kyrgyzstan, my mind was blown. Right. 421 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:49,196 Speaker 1: You talk in the book about how you would go 422 00:23:49,236 --> 00:23:51,556 Speaker 1: on climbs together and he would be in the zone, 423 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:54,436 Speaker 1: in a flow state, totally pulled in and immersed in 424 00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: the experience, and your mind was just totally out there, right, 425 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: I mean you felt like you were losing your grip 426 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:05,436 Speaker 1: on reality, Like how did it feel to have that 427 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 1: disconnect between you two? 428 00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:12,236 Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to hide it because I 429 00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 2: felt like I was doing something wrong. Like here we 430 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 2: are on this climb together, Tommy's crushing it. I have 431 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:23,276 Speaker 2: the athletic and physical capability to crush it, and yet 432 00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 2: I am scared every second of death. And so I'm like, 433 00:24:27,156 --> 00:24:29,956 Speaker 2: I can't admit this, like I'm just doing something wrong. 434 00:24:30,196 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 2: So I would hide it. I would be like this 435 00:24:32,556 --> 00:24:33,916 Speaker 2: is great, like look at us go. 436 00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:35,156 Speaker 3: But I could never. 437 00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 2: Tell him or tell myself that there was clearly something 438 00:24:40,196 --> 00:24:44,316 Speaker 2: else that I should probably confront and think about. I 439 00:24:44,356 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 2: was like I'm just not there yet. I'm not trying 440 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:49,636 Speaker 2: hard enough, I'm not saying the right things enough, I'm 441 00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 2: not doing the right things. Like I just need to 442 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 2: like correct this behavior and I'll get there. 443 00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:56,316 Speaker 3: Huh. 444 00:24:56,796 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: Did you ever come close during this time to revealing 445 00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:05,796 Speaker 1: anything at all? Maybe when your emotions overwhelmed you past 446 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:07,116 Speaker 1: a point of comfort. 447 00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:13,556 Speaker 2: I would definitely break down, But it was never I 448 00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 2: never said it was because of Kyrgyzstan or PTSD. It 449 00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:21,836 Speaker 2: was like, I'm not strong enough. I need some more water. Oh, 450 00:25:21,876 --> 00:25:24,476 Speaker 2: we're gonna have to climb into the dark. Like our 451 00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 2: lives were so funneled into just climbing and how to 452 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:33,156 Speaker 2: be better climbers, and if there was anything else, it 453 00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 2: was kind of dismissed. If it was like, oh, we're 454 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,596 Speaker 2: having trouble with this person or this thing, I was like, Oh, 455 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:41,836 Speaker 2: we don't worry about that sort of thing. Climbing is 456 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 2: the way. And so if I was having these thoughts 457 00:25:44,556 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: while climbing, it was because I wasn't trying hard enough, 458 00:25:47,996 --> 00:25:51,516 Speaker 2: I wasn't focusing hard enough. I needed to do better 459 00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:52,796 Speaker 2: and then I would get there. 460 00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:56,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, all of your days were dedicated to this pursuit. 461 00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 1: You were building a home in Yo seventy together, you 462 00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:04,236 Speaker 1: were taking on climbing feats, both together and individually. You 463 00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: were known as like the power couple of climbing. It 464 00:26:07,556 --> 00:26:09,636 Speaker 1: defined your relationship. 465 00:26:09,476 --> 00:26:12,596 Speaker 2: Exactly, like everything was climbing, Like our friends were climbing. 466 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,356 Speaker 2: We never took a vacation or a trip that wasn't climbing. 467 00:26:15,476 --> 00:26:17,916 Speaker 2: Everything was climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing. 468 00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 1: And it sounds like the mindset that you cultivated as 469 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:27,476 Speaker 1: a climber, the ability to push through pain, to suppress 470 00:26:27,516 --> 00:26:30,556 Speaker 1: your feelings, to be able to grin embarrass, the ability 471 00:26:30,596 --> 00:26:35,596 Speaker 1: to compartmentalize that all of those traits made it extremely 472 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,716 Speaker 1: challenging for you to approach your trauma in the way 473 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:41,756 Speaker 1: that you needed to totally. 474 00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 2: And I think it's really important to state because I 475 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,956 Speaker 2: know it's easy to blame other things. And I'm not 476 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 2: saying that it's because of this entirely, but the climbing 477 00:26:52,636 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: community at that time was so discouraging of any form 478 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 2: of fear or trauma or weakness. I felt like if 479 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 2: I admitted this, if people people knew I was going 480 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 2: to therapy, if people knew that I was still scared, 481 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 2: it would be such a stain on this reputation and 482 00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:20,316 Speaker 2: this career that I built that it would be almost 483 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:21,556 Speaker 2: impossible to erase. 484 00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 3: So not only was. 485 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 2: I afraid to do it, but then I was afraid 486 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,596 Speaker 2: that this would impact my marriage. Tommy was always like, 487 00:27:29,636 --> 00:27:32,076 Speaker 2: therapy's dumb, Like they don't know what they're talking about. 488 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 2: They didn't go through what we went through. How could 489 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 2: they possibly help us? So I was afraid of how 490 00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 2: it would affect my relationship with Tommy, how it would 491 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 2: affected my career, you know, just and I didn't want 492 00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:43,396 Speaker 2: to be seen as a weak person. I wanted to 493 00:27:43,436 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 2: be seen as this strong person. So there was like 494 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,196 Speaker 2: all this stuff wrapped up, and like why I thought 495 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 2: it was not a good idea to confront it? 496 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, were you extra guarded about your vulnerable mental state 497 00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: in part because you're a woman and you were already 498 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:05,876 Speaker 1: facing such a stigma about your baseline levels of mental 499 00:28:05,916 --> 00:28:07,476 Speaker 1: fortitude or physical strength. 500 00:28:08,156 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 3: Exactly? 501 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:12,596 Speaker 2: Back then, there was like one seat at the table 502 00:28:12,796 --> 00:28:15,476 Speaker 2: for women on an athlete team or on an expedition, 503 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:18,476 Speaker 2: and you were going with guys, and if the guys 504 00:28:18,556 --> 00:28:21,996 Speaker 2: thought that you were weak in any imagination, then you 505 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 2: were not invited. And that seat was quickly given to 506 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:27,676 Speaker 2: the next person, and so it was very much like 507 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:30,556 Speaker 2: I had to keep up this persona that I could fill. 508 00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:32,436 Speaker 2: I could suck it up and I could suffer with 509 00:28:32,476 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 2: the best of them. But I also had this other 510 00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:38,076 Speaker 2: side of like, wow, like I have these huge feelings, 511 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:41,716 Speaker 2: I have these big emotions, and I need help processing them. 512 00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:46,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. So you'd been with Tommy since your early twenties 513 00:28:46,796 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 1: or two months before your trip to Kyrgyzstan, and then 514 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: in your late twenties you made this life changing decision. 515 00:28:53,716 --> 00:28:55,876 Speaker 1: You had told yourself at the top of that mountain, 516 00:28:55,956 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 1: I'm never going to leave Tommy, and you decided to 517 00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 1: begin a new chapter of your life with your now husband, Randy. 518 00:29:02,436 --> 00:29:05,236 Speaker 1: I can only imagine how complicated that was for you, Beth, 519 00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:09,916 Speaker 1: to navigate, and I would love to hear what led 520 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:10,556 Speaker 1: you to that point. 521 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:12,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it's a great question. 522 00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:15,956 Speaker 2: I started dating Tommy when I was nineteen, and we 523 00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:20,396 Speaker 2: were together like nearly a decade, married at like twenty two, 524 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 2: and I honestly thought after Kyrgyzstan that that was it. 525 00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:28,796 Speaker 2: Like Tommy and I were good, you know, we were 526 00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:32,036 Speaker 2: great climbing partners, we loved each other, but I think 527 00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:36,916 Speaker 2: as I went through my twenties, I started noticing things 528 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 2: in our relationship cracks. It would be this kind of 529 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:41,996 Speaker 2: similar with PTSD. I'd notice it and then I'd just 530 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:43,036 Speaker 2: like try and shove it away. 531 00:29:43,476 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: What kind of things were you noticing that you learned 532 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 1: to ignore? 533 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:49,076 Speaker 3: Uh, there was like a lot of things. 534 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: I had so many issues with his parents, and to 535 00:29:52,516 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 2: the point where I mean, as you know, I'm in 536 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 2: my mid forties now I get but at the time, 537 00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 2: I was like, why aren't you putting us before your parents. 538 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:05,116 Speaker 3: I'm like, this seems like an easy. 539 00:30:04,796 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 2: Thing to do, and he was just like, nope, we 540 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:08,876 Speaker 2: got to toe this line with my parents. And I'd 541 00:30:08,876 --> 00:30:12,036 Speaker 2: be like, wow, I feel like a child. 542 00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:13,876 Speaker 3: This is not okay. But I was like, okay, I 543 00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:14,836 Speaker 3: guess we're towing this line. 544 00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:17,476 Speaker 2: So like I feel like things like that, I started 545 00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:20,476 Speaker 2: to build resentment before and again, I think with resentment, 546 00:30:20,516 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 2: I was like, it's okay, and then when it would 547 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:24,596 Speaker 2: come back another time, I was like, oh, it's stronger, 548 00:30:24,756 --> 00:30:26,876 Speaker 2: but it's okay, you know. And so I'd noticed these 549 00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:28,236 Speaker 2: things come in and. 550 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 1: When you would find yourself frustrated by, for example, things 551 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 1: with his parents or other things that couples can just 552 00:30:34,596 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 1: get annoyed at one another about would you find yourself 553 00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:40,116 Speaker 1: ever saying but he saved your life, Beth, you have 554 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:40,836 Speaker 1: to stay with him. 555 00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:43,116 Speaker 3: I think. 556 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:47,436 Speaker 2: At times I would probably say that, but more so 557 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:49,356 Speaker 2: I was like, he's a great guy. 558 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 3: You'll never find another great guy like this. He's a 559 00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:52,436 Speaker 3: great guy. 560 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:56,516 Speaker 2: You'll never find another great guy like this because Tommy's 561 00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 2: a great guy, right, Like I don't want to ever 562 00:30:58,276 --> 00:31:01,436 Speaker 2: say Tommy's not a great guy, but people can be 563 00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:05,036 Speaker 2: great people and not the right person for you. And 564 00:31:05,116 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 2: so I think I heard it so much from our friends, 565 00:31:07,716 --> 00:31:10,436 Speaker 2: like Tommy's an amazing guy, that I think I just 566 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 2: was like, Wow, I'm like screwed if I ever am 567 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:17,036 Speaker 2: not if I feel like this relationship isn't good, Like 568 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:18,876 Speaker 2: this is the best you're ever going to get. And 569 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:22,156 Speaker 2: I had been telling myself that. And then honestly, we 570 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:25,836 Speaker 2: built a house together. We framed the house, we put 571 00:31:25,876 --> 00:31:27,556 Speaker 2: on the roof, like we just did, you know, like 572 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 2: manual labor together for a whole year, and I know, 573 00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:34,596 Speaker 2: like building a house with somebody's stressful, But it was 574 00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 2: the first time that we were doing something together that 575 00:31:39,316 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 2: wasn't climbing. It was just like, you know, the mundane 576 00:31:43,716 --> 00:31:45,476 Speaker 2: things of like, oh, if we're going to make dinner 577 00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 2: after a day of building, and like do we have 578 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:48,996 Speaker 2: anything to talk about? Am I interested in what he 579 00:31:49,036 --> 00:31:50,796 Speaker 2: has to say? Is he interested in what I have 580 00:31:50,916 --> 00:31:53,996 Speaker 2: to say? Like, I'm really tired of this building? Can 581 00:31:54,036 --> 00:31:55,716 Speaker 2: we go to the beach? We've never gone to the 582 00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:58,476 Speaker 2: beach before. That seems uncomfortable for us. Oh, we're not 583 00:31:58,516 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 2: going to the beach because we don't know how to 584 00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:01,196 Speaker 2: do it. You know. It's just like all those things 585 00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:05,236 Speaker 2: that I'm like, oh, Wow, maybe this isn't it. I 586 00:32:05,236 --> 00:32:07,436 Speaker 2: don't like how we're working together, Like I don't like 587 00:32:08,196 --> 00:32:11,036 Speaker 2: how I I was just like, wow, I don't like this. 588 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 3: And so after the house we went back to climbing. 589 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 2: I was like, we have to get back to climbing 590 00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 2: because I can't be with that person. I don't want 591 00:32:17,836 --> 00:32:19,956 Speaker 2: to be that person in that relationship. And so we 592 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:22,436 Speaker 2: got back to climbing and it kind of felt normalish. 593 00:32:22,436 --> 00:32:24,956 Speaker 2: But I think once I had seen that, I started 594 00:32:25,076 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 2: noticing cracks more and like maybe lighting resentment in maybe 595 00:32:28,356 --> 00:32:33,036 Speaker 2: like deciding to dig deeper into things that I was 596 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 2: bothered by that maybe I wouldn't have mentioned before. And 597 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 2: then that's when I met Randy, and I was like, oh, wow, 598 00:32:39,396 --> 00:32:43,156 Speaker 2: maybe this isn't the relationship for me. So I met 599 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:46,196 Speaker 2: Randy while I was still married to Tommy, and I 600 00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 2: think I was always one of those people that was 601 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:54,076 Speaker 2: very judgy of people who had affairs or were unfaithful. 602 00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 2: I was like, well, if you're unhappy with this person, 603 00:32:56,956 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 2: then just leave and then start the new one. I 604 00:32:58,916 --> 00:33:01,476 Speaker 2: just thought it was like a very easy thing, Like 605 00:33:01,516 --> 00:33:03,636 Speaker 2: I didn't ever think you had to stay with somebody, 606 00:33:03,956 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 2: but I thought you needed to be cut and dry 607 00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:10,916 Speaker 2: about it. And so I found myself in this very gosh, 608 00:33:10,956 --> 00:33:15,116 Speaker 2: it was so hard, like sticky, messy, whatever you want 609 00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:19,756 Speaker 2: to say, situation where I didn't know how to leave 610 00:33:19,876 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 2: Tommy and take the leap, and so I ended up 611 00:33:24,396 --> 00:33:28,236 Speaker 2: having an affair with Randy before I left my marriage 612 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 2: to Tommy. 613 00:33:31,036 --> 00:33:34,756 Speaker 1: When you and Randy got married, your life changed in 614 00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:38,116 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Right, He was a climber, but 615 00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:40,276 Speaker 1: he was a more of a recreational climber. He had 616 00:33:40,316 --> 00:33:42,996 Speaker 1: a much more well rounded life and normal job, and 617 00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:46,716 Speaker 1: you guys also decided to have a child together. So 618 00:33:46,876 --> 00:33:51,836 Speaker 1: much changed in terms of your orientation towards climbing, and 619 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: what a focal point that had been for you. 620 00:33:54,316 --> 00:33:56,796 Speaker 2: I think when I first was with Randy and like 621 00:33:57,436 --> 00:34:00,276 Speaker 2: having this quote unquote more normal life, you know, I'd 622 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:02,316 Speaker 2: go out to dinner with his friends, or I go 623 00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:06,356 Speaker 2: out to a company party. I just remember feeling like 624 00:34:06,436 --> 00:34:07,356 Speaker 2: my brain. 625 00:34:07,156 --> 00:34:08,196 Speaker 3: Was getting massaged. 626 00:34:08,636 --> 00:34:13,356 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, wow, people have these great, interesting, 627 00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:16,716 Speaker 2: intelligent conversations about all sorts of things, because all I 628 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:18,916 Speaker 2: ever do is talk about climbing or the weather or 629 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:21,516 Speaker 2: my skin or whatever, you know, just like anything related 630 00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:27,956 Speaker 2: to climbing. And so I think being with Randy and 631 00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 2: him opening my mind to like, there are so many 632 00:34:31,996 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 2: paths you can take in life, and there are so 633 00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:34,556 Speaker 2: many ways. 634 00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:34,956 Speaker 3: To be happy. 635 00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:38,356 Speaker 2: Whereas I was fully drinking the kool aid that climbing 636 00:34:38,476 --> 00:34:40,956 Speaker 2: was the best thing out there. We were better than 637 00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:44,236 Speaker 2: other people, We knew more than other people, Like we 638 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:46,956 Speaker 2: are doing the right thing, and everybody else is just 639 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:50,476 Speaker 2: living this inferior life. And so being with Randy and 640 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:54,036 Speaker 2: seeing like all these ways people are happy, they're interested 641 00:34:54,076 --> 00:34:56,476 Speaker 2: in other things, they're challenged by other things, it was 642 00:34:56,556 --> 00:34:59,356 Speaker 2: just kind of this refreshing thing. And then once we 643 00:34:59,436 --> 00:35:02,836 Speaker 2: had our sun it's just another layer of how to 644 00:35:02,876 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 2: live life. And even before our son was born, little 645 00:35:06,756 --> 00:35:07,796 Speaker 2: things would bubble up. 646 00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:08,356 Speaker 3: You know. 647 00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:11,676 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm uncomfortable because I don't know this 648 00:35:11,756 --> 00:35:14,596 Speaker 2: person and we can't invite them into our house. And 649 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:17,716 Speaker 2: he's like why, and you know, I try to explain 650 00:35:17,796 --> 00:35:21,596 Speaker 2: the Kyrgyzstan thing and he was like, you're safe, They're safe, 651 00:35:21,676 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 2: like this is all okay. And I felt very challenged 652 00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:27,596 Speaker 2: and like a little bit resentful, and he's like, I 653 00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 2: think you could go to therapy about this, and I 654 00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 2: think you could probably heal a lot from this. And 655 00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:36,196 Speaker 2: I was very much taken aback, and you know, said, 656 00:35:36,396 --> 00:35:38,276 Speaker 2: you have no idea what I went through. I don't 657 00:35:38,276 --> 00:35:39,636 Speaker 2: need to go to therapy. And so I was very 658 00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:43,396 Speaker 2: stand offish at first. But when we had our son, 659 00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:47,516 Speaker 2: it was very apparent that this little bubble and this 660 00:35:47,636 --> 00:35:50,276 Speaker 2: like tight narrow path on how I felt safe in 661 00:35:50,316 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 2: the world was not a way to raise a child. 662 00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:56,716 Speaker 3: And so that's when I finally. 663 00:35:56,436 --> 00:35:59,196 Speaker 2: Thought, Okay, maybe I should give this a shot and 664 00:35:59,196 --> 00:36:02,556 Speaker 2: see if it's if it's possible to fifteen twenty years 665 00:36:02,636 --> 00:36:04,756 Speaker 2: later heal from PTSD. 666 00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:08,436 Speaker 1: It's one thing to commit to therapy and to say, Okay, 667 00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:10,236 Speaker 1: I need to change. I think it's another thing to 668 00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:14,356 Speaker 1: lean in to the process of therapy and actually make 669 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:17,116 Speaker 1: yourself available to your therapist in a way that actually 670 00:36:17,476 --> 00:36:18,396 Speaker 1: yields returns. 671 00:36:19,236 --> 00:36:23,156 Speaker 2: Honestly, it was terrifying for me because I felt like 672 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:28,516 Speaker 2: I had built these walls around the memories and the 673 00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:32,076 Speaker 2: experience of Kyrgyzstan. That's like how I felt like I 674 00:36:32,116 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 2: was surviving. I was like, I can go to sleep 675 00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:37,076 Speaker 2: at night because I have these walls. I can fly 676 00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 2: on an airplane because I have these walls. And if 677 00:36:39,356 --> 00:36:41,756 Speaker 2: I break down these walls and I just let these 678 00:36:41,796 --> 00:36:46,596 Speaker 2: memories and thoughts out, that's totally unsafe. And so I 679 00:36:46,636 --> 00:36:49,796 Speaker 2: remember the first session sitting down with her and saying 680 00:36:49,836 --> 00:36:54,516 Speaker 2: that exact thing, like, are you sure, because I've been 681 00:36:54,556 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 2: able to go fifteen years and if this makes it 682 00:36:57,516 --> 00:37:01,156 Speaker 2: so I can't go anymore, that's not worth it to me. 683 00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:05,836 Speaker 2: And she assured me and reassured me, and so I 684 00:37:05,916 --> 00:37:08,596 Speaker 2: was like, I honestly just felt like I was taking 685 00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:11,196 Speaker 2: a leap of f I was like, Okay, here we go. 686 00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:15,076 Speaker 1: And was there a short term cost to letting that 687 00:37:15,156 --> 00:37:18,396 Speaker 1: all out into the world, Because I know in the past, 688 00:37:18,436 --> 00:37:21,596 Speaker 1: when I've had irrational fears and I've been in deeply 689 00:37:21,636 --> 00:37:24,636 Speaker 1: avoidant modes, and then I engage in some kind of 690 00:37:24,636 --> 00:37:28,076 Speaker 1: exposure therapy, And sometimes it's just mental exposure therapy, right, 691 00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:30,876 Speaker 1: like allowing myself to engage in those like really uncomfortable, 692 00:37:31,076 --> 00:37:34,876 Speaker 1: painful thoughts. It is more uncomfortable in the short term, 693 00:37:34,956 --> 00:37:38,116 Speaker 1: but then over time you become less and less afraid 694 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:40,076 Speaker 1: of those thoughts. They become less and less threatening. 695 00:37:40,876 --> 00:37:44,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there were maybe a 696 00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:48,436 Speaker 2: few sessions where by the time I got home, I 697 00:37:48,556 --> 00:37:53,036 Speaker 2: was still scared and on edge and raw. I remember 698 00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:57,436 Speaker 2: there was one session in particular where you know, we 699 00:37:57,476 --> 00:38:01,956 Speaker 2: would work through thoughts and memories that were particularly difficult 700 00:38:01,956 --> 00:38:05,516 Speaker 2: for me, and one that was particularly difficult was the 701 00:38:05,556 --> 00:38:09,036 Speaker 2: sound of Sue hitting the ledge Like I just did 702 00:38:09,116 --> 00:38:12,636 Speaker 2: didn't let myself think about that for fifteen years, but 703 00:38:12,756 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 2: if I started to think about it, I could tell 704 00:38:15,196 --> 00:38:19,596 Speaker 2: I was getting very nervous and scared. So when that 705 00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:26,196 Speaker 2: session in particular, I remember looking at my therapist and 706 00:38:26,236 --> 00:38:28,796 Speaker 2: I could see her talking to me, and I could 707 00:38:28,876 --> 00:38:32,396 Speaker 2: hear audibly that there were words and sounds coming out 708 00:38:32,436 --> 00:38:35,356 Speaker 2: of her mouth, but I actually couldn't understand what she 709 00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:38,476 Speaker 2: was saying. And that's exactly how I was after my 710 00:38:38,516 --> 00:38:41,596 Speaker 2: first concussion. I would be at dinner with somebody and 711 00:38:41,636 --> 00:38:44,036 Speaker 2: I could see and hear that they were talking to me, 712 00:38:44,556 --> 00:38:47,276 Speaker 2: but I couldn't understand what they were saying. And I 713 00:38:47,356 --> 00:38:52,036 Speaker 2: told her that, I said, Wow, I can't actually hear 714 00:38:52,236 --> 00:38:55,276 Speaker 2: and understand what you're saying right now. This feels exactly 715 00:38:55,356 --> 00:38:58,996 Speaker 2: like my concussion. And she said, sometimes when people go 716 00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:03,556 Speaker 2: so deep into trauma, it's a similar response in their brain. 717 00:39:04,556 --> 00:39:06,316 Speaker 2: And I feel like there were two other sessions I 718 00:39:06,316 --> 00:39:10,436 Speaker 2: can remember that I had that similar experience that I 719 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:13,956 Speaker 2: went so deep that it felt like a brain injury 720 00:39:14,036 --> 00:39:14,996 Speaker 2: or something. 721 00:39:15,956 --> 00:39:20,196 Speaker 1: Do you remember a moment when you first realized, Hey, 722 00:39:20,236 --> 00:39:24,876 Speaker 1: this confronting thing is working, I'm becoming less scared, Like, 723 00:39:24,956 --> 00:39:27,076 Speaker 1: was there a moment where you would have acted one 724 00:39:27,116 --> 00:39:30,396 Speaker 1: way in the past and then you found yourself acting differently. 725 00:39:32,276 --> 00:39:34,876 Speaker 2: I don't think there was an actual moment when I 726 00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:40,796 Speaker 2: think about it, but I do know I could feel 727 00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 2: my anxiety and my need for control loosen over time, 728 00:39:49,156 --> 00:39:53,076 Speaker 2: and that I felt like I could actually it felt 729 00:39:53,116 --> 00:39:56,236 Speaker 2: like taking a big breath and just relaxing into my 730 00:39:56,276 --> 00:39:59,276 Speaker 2: body to the point where I was like, I don't 731 00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:03,156 Speaker 2: feel like I've relaxed into my body for fifteen years. 732 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:09,396 Speaker 1: Wow, I'm so happy that you have had that release. Yes, 733 00:40:09,476 --> 00:40:14,556 Speaker 1: that's wonderful, life changing. Yeah, Beth, obviously this is something 734 00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:18,636 Speaker 1: you continue to work on, and you have faced new challenges. 735 00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:23,316 Speaker 1: I've been following very closely your challenges with childbirth and 736 00:40:23,356 --> 00:40:26,396 Speaker 1: what it did to your body and all the discomfort there. 737 00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:30,076 Speaker 1: You've also recently talked about your experiences with peri menopause. 738 00:40:30,396 --> 00:40:33,436 Speaker 1: You've been very very vocal about all of your injuries 739 00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:36,796 Speaker 1: and for climbing and how that's affected you. I mean, 740 00:40:36,836 --> 00:40:40,156 Speaker 1: you were like miss vulnerability, and I don't know if 741 00:40:40,156 --> 00:40:41,756 Speaker 1: you ever thought you would be that person. 742 00:40:42,316 --> 00:40:45,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's a nice thing to be 743 00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:50,556 Speaker 2: able to have those conversations in a community that had 744 00:40:50,716 --> 00:40:54,436 Speaker 2: so much positivity in my life, but also had these 745 00:40:54,476 --> 00:40:57,116 Speaker 2: things that lurked in the shadows that weren't ever talked about. 746 00:40:57,676 --> 00:40:59,636 Speaker 3: You know, our community has. 747 00:40:59,516 --> 00:41:02,156 Speaker 2: So much death and trauma in it, you know, it's 748 00:41:02,236 --> 00:41:05,396 Speaker 2: just the nature of what we do, and so I 749 00:41:05,436 --> 00:41:09,876 Speaker 2: think to just know that those conversations are well, it's 750 00:41:09,916 --> 00:41:10,636 Speaker 2: a wonderful thing. 751 00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:11,076 Speaker 3: Honestly. 752 00:41:11,556 --> 00:41:14,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, as you look back to your evolution. How would 753 00:41:14,196 --> 00:41:17,356 Speaker 1: you describe your mindset today? So before it was very 754 00:41:17,476 --> 00:41:21,636 Speaker 1: much a suck it up and persevere. How does it 755 00:41:21,636 --> 00:41:22,556 Speaker 1: look different today? 756 00:41:22,916 --> 00:41:29,076 Speaker 2: If at all, I feel like I'm generally still bath 757 00:41:29,436 --> 00:41:31,876 Speaker 2: you know, like if I forget my water on a 758 00:41:31,916 --> 00:41:33,996 Speaker 2: climb and I need to get to the top to 759 00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:36,956 Speaker 2: get more, then I'm still that like, Okay, we got this, 760 00:41:37,236 --> 00:41:38,596 Speaker 2: Like you can. 761 00:41:38,476 --> 00:41:39,476 Speaker 3: Do this type of thing. 762 00:41:39,876 --> 00:41:42,236 Speaker 2: But I'm also the type of person that i'm you know, 763 00:41:42,316 --> 00:41:45,116 Speaker 2: if I'm able, i'd be like, I'm actually good going down. 764 00:41:45,476 --> 00:41:46,756 Speaker 2: You know, I don't need to go to the top. 765 00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:49,196 Speaker 2: That's fine, This climb will be here tomorrow. I can 766 00:41:49,196 --> 00:41:51,596 Speaker 2: come back then. So I think I'm just much more 767 00:41:51,636 --> 00:41:55,036 Speaker 2: of like the feelings are okay, they're valid. 768 00:41:55,796 --> 00:41:58,276 Speaker 3: You don't have to just be one way. 769 00:41:57,916 --> 00:42:00,516 Speaker 2: To survive, which I feel like before I was always 770 00:42:00,636 --> 00:42:03,676 Speaker 2: like there is one way for success and happiness and achievement, 771 00:42:03,716 --> 00:42:07,276 Speaker 2: and if you deviate from that, bummer for you. And 772 00:42:07,356 --> 00:42:09,796 Speaker 2: now I'm like, there's a million ways. Find your own 773 00:42:09,836 --> 00:42:11,196 Speaker 2: way and it'll be great. 774 00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:35,236 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. Next week we're reairing my 775 00:42:35,316 --> 00:42:38,436 Speaker 1: conversation with Tommy Caldwell so you can hear from him. 776 00:42:38,436 --> 00:42:41,796 Speaker 1: Then if that story resonated with you, or if you 777 00:42:41,836 --> 00:42:45,036 Speaker 1: faced your own version of confronting the past, we'd love 778 00:42:45,076 --> 00:42:47,436 Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can reach out to me 779 00:42:47,476 --> 00:42:51,196 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker or through my newsletter 780 00:42:51,356 --> 00:42:57,116 Speaker 1: at Changewmaya dot com. And next time, writer Sawhill Bloom 781 00:42:57,236 --> 00:43:00,956 Speaker 1: talks about quitting the rat race and redefining what matters 782 00:43:00,956 --> 00:43:01,316 Speaker 1: to you. 783 00:43:02,956 --> 00:43:06,316 Speaker 4: As the years went by, I became more rather than 784 00:43:06,436 --> 00:43:10,556 Speaker 4: less focused on money being the path to living a 785 00:43:10,596 --> 00:43:13,716 Speaker 4: good life. I grew so convinced that like this one 786 00:43:14,316 --> 00:43:17,716 Speaker 4: scoreboard was the one that mattered, that every other area 787 00:43:17,756 --> 00:43:19,956 Speaker 4: of my life started to show cracks. 788 00:43:20,516 --> 00:43:23,516 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See 789 00:43:23,556 --> 00:43:28,156 Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 790 00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:31,836 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change 791 00:43:31,916 --> 00:43:35,996 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 792 00:43:36,036 --> 00:43:40,596 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and 793 00:43:40,676 --> 00:43:44,956 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 794 00:43:44,996 --> 00:43:48,316 Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 795 00:43:48,356 --> 00:43:51,516 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries 796 00:43:51,676 --> 00:43:54,636 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 797 00:43:54,836 --> 00:43:57,956 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a 798 00:43:57,996 --> 00:44:01,196 Speaker 1: slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker 799 00:44:01,596 --> 00:44:19,956 Speaker 1: See you next week to