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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, It's Sophia, Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to this week's work in progress. Today

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Speaker 1: we are talking to a journalist that I deeply admire,

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Speaker 1: and she also happens to be a woman I really

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Speaker 1: like to hang out with. Abby Phillip is our guest today,

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Speaker 1: and she has become one of the most trusted and

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Speaker 1: incisive voices in American journalism. She is known for her

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Speaker 1: unflappable energy, her sharp political analysis, and her incredibly steady presence.

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Speaker 1: Is the anchor of CNN's News Night. And Abby is

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Speaker 1: here with us today because she's just released a new

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Speaker 1: book which feels incredibly relevant for these times, even though

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Speaker 1: it's a study of the nineteen eighties. It is called

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Speaker 1: a Dream Deferred. Jesse Jackson in The Fight for Black

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Speaker 1: Political Power, looks at his nineteen eighty four and nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty eight runs for president and really the way he

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Speaker 1: was shaking up a system that clearly needs some shaking.

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Speaker 1: Abby's here today to talk about the research that went

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Speaker 1: into this book, the lessons that it holds that are

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Speaker 1: relevant for all of us in this moment, her thoughts

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Speaker 1: about what it will be like in the future when

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Speaker 1: we look back at this current political time, and she's

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Speaker 1: also going to share some of her personal stories. From

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Speaker 1: growing up in Trinidad and Tobago to moving back to

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Speaker 1: the United States to studying government at Harvard. She has

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Speaker 1: really led a life that has allowed her to approach

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Speaker 1: the world with a drive to understand people and to

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Speaker 1: make sure their stories are being told well and fairly

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Speaker 1: and in ways that might unite rather than divide us.

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Speaker 1: So let's jump in with Abby Philip. I like to

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Speaker 1: go backwards with people before we dig into the present,

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Speaker 1: because everyone I get to sit with has some amazing story,

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Speaker 1: some amazing career. You have an audience that knows your life.

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Speaker 1: But I like to know how people were made. So

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Speaker 1: if we could have like a very cool animated movie

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Speaker 1: day of our own and like bend space time and

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Speaker 1: step out onto a playground and see our eight year

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Speaker 1: old selves. If you got to hang out with that

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Speaker 1: little girl who I know you still carry with you,

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Speaker 1: But if you got to hang out with her, chat

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Speaker 1: with her, hear what she's up to or interested in.

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Speaker 1: Do you think you would see the parallels in the

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Speaker 1: two of you. Would you see the woman you are

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Speaker 1: today in your younger self?

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Speaker 2: That's such a great question, I think so yeah, because

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Speaker 2: when I the funny thing about me, first of all

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Speaker 2: is that I have a really bad memory. So there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of things about my childhood that I

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Speaker 2: just do not remember. And some of it, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: is probably just sort of a coping mechanism that I've

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Speaker 2: just sort of blocked out certain parts of my life,

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Speaker 2: not because it was particularly traumatic, but because, you know,

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Speaker 2: around that time, when I was eight, we had just

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Speaker 2: moved from Trinidad and Tobago to the United States. I

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Speaker 2: was born here, but shortly after I was born, we

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Speaker 2: moved to where my parents are from and we lived

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Speaker 2: there for eight years. So I really didn't know America

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Speaker 2: all that much until I was around that age, and

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Speaker 2: so much of that time is kind of fuzzy to me.

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Speaker 2: But what I will say is that I've always been

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Speaker 2: like Abby, I'm you know, I'm I'm Abby is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, a character in my family's house, because I'm

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Speaker 2: just like I've always been the kid who always wanted

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Speaker 2: to be in charge of things, always wanted to be

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Speaker 2: doing something. I've always had that side of my personality.

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Speaker 2: But I will also say that I don't know that

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Speaker 2: I ever really saw myself having a kind of public

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Speaker 2: facing life. That part, I think has been very different

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Speaker 2: from what I envisioned for myself from my earliest memories.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the drive, the work ethic, the

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Speaker 2: kind of the mom in me. Honestly, I've always been

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a mom ever since I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid. That has always been there. But life

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Speaker 2: has been actually kind of surprising in a lot of

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Speaker 2: ways for that other reason too.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I get a vision that if we

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Speaker 1: did that walk out together and saw our little they'd

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Speaker 1: be organizing everyone on the playground to really crush a project,

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Speaker 1: just like this.

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Speaker 2: Is how we're going to get something done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was always the one who wanted to be like

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Speaker 2: at the grocery store, checking things off of the list

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Speaker 2: and pushing the cart. Yeah yeah, that type of personality.

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Speaker 1: I totally get it. I love it. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that that shift? I mean, what a what a sort

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Speaker 1: of seismic experience. You know, obviously you don't remember moving

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Speaker 1: back to Trinidad and Tobago, but coming back here when

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Speaker 1: you really are forming you know, memories and in a

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Speaker 1: sort of routine in your childhood. To have that shift

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Speaker 1: was there lore around it? Was there a sort of

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Speaker 1: American dream story around it? Or was was there also

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Speaker 1: the sort of sad elements for your parents of having

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Speaker 1: to leave home again?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think there was totally a sense

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Speaker 2: of lore. I mean, any immigrant experience when you come

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Speaker 2: to America, like the movie Coming to America, it's it

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Speaker 2: is an experience, right, and it is something that most

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Speaker 2: people that I grew up with in Trinidad never experience.

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Speaker 2: But I always we always knew, me and my sisters

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Speaker 2: that we were we were born in America, and so

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Speaker 2: we always had that kind of part of us that

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Speaker 2: was what if we used to watch like Sweet Valley High,

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Speaker 2: Oh my God, the Throwback and like all these shows,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean we would we would watch American

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Speaker 2: TV and just kind of dream about what it would

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Speaker 2: be like. And when we did come to the United States,

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Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, our parents had come up

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Speaker 2: a little bit before us to kind of get everything ready,

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Speaker 2: and so a lot of it was just being reunited

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Speaker 2: with them, and the other part of it was just

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Speaker 2: experiencing America snow and you know, the leaves changing and

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Speaker 2: Christmas and real Barbie dolls not the fake ones. That

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Speaker 2: we growing up and all of those things that were

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Speaker 2: part of the lore. And but also, I mean I

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Speaker 2: have to add that growing up my parents, regardless of

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Speaker 2: where we were born or the America of it all,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think they always kind of instilled in

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Speaker 2: us this sense that we were not we were not

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Speaker 2: just like everybody else, for good or for bad. I

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Speaker 2: don't know where that came from for them. I mean,

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Speaker 2: some of it was that we were raised pretty religiously

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Speaker 2: in a Christian household, so it was always like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're in the world, but not of the world. So

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Speaker 2: we were always kind of expected to be different from

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Speaker 2: other people. And I think that actually, in a weird way,

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Speaker 2: helped me acclimate and adjust to being in a completely

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Speaker 2: different place because I was very different. I used to

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Speaker 2: have an accent, a Trinidadian accent when I was eight,

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Speaker 2: and I I lost that accent. But I also just

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Speaker 2: I was okay with being different from other people, even

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Speaker 2: though I observed our differences, and I think it helped

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Speaker 2: that My parents were always like, you're You're not like

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Speaker 2: these other kids. You're gonna get a's, you're smart, you're

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Speaker 2: you know. They would always sort of reinforce in us,

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Speaker 2: this sense that we weren't going to just go with

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Speaker 2: the crowd. We had to have our sense of individuality

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Speaker 2: and our sense of purpose outside of what was happening

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Speaker 2: around us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do, to your point, think that's such

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Speaker 1: a common thread in immigrant families because the move and

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Speaker 1: the arrival and the taking your place in this country

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Speaker 1: it has such lore. You're expected to earn it. And

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting to hear you talk about how you

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Speaker 1: had a sense of sort of this world and another

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Speaker 1: from your faith based upbringing. But also you're talking about

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Speaker 1: an experience that you know. So many people that we

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Speaker 1: both know, and so many public figures, particularly black people

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Speaker 1: in America, talk about like being of this place and

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Speaker 1: not and for you to be an American and also

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Speaker 1: to have grown up in Trinidad, it's like you had

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Speaker 1: so many versions of this and that. Yeah, the kind

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Speaker 1: of dialectics of your identity and how special that in

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Speaker 1: a way they were sort of told to you and

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Speaker 1: they were experienced by you in this way that made

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Speaker 1: you feel like, oh, yeah, I can be all of

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Speaker 1: these things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it gave me a sense of empathy

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Speaker 2: and also a desire to real understand the people around

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Speaker 2: me and figure out how we could find things in common.

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Speaker 2: And I think that is one of those things that

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Speaker 2: I carry with me and that I literally use in

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Speaker 2: my day to day life and in my job. Part

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Speaker 2: of it, I think also is also where I'm from,

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Speaker 2: where my family is from. You know, Trinidad and Tobago

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Speaker 2: is an island in the Caribbean that is actually an

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Speaker 2: incredibly diverse place. It's a lot of people of African descent,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people of Indian descent. There are Asians there,

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Speaker 2: there are people of Latin descent there. Even within my

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Speaker 2: own family, I have people who look like all kinds

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Speaker 2: of different things. And so that idea of differences was

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Speaker 2: not something that ever really bothered me, and it never

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Speaker 2: really stopped me from being able to make friends or

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Speaker 2: identify with people that I lived around or that I

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Speaker 2: went to school with. And the fact that I had

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Speaker 2: to come in culturally and I am black, and I

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Speaker 2: am African American, I'm Caribbean American, but I didn't actually

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Speaker 2: have that much in common with a lot of Black Americans.

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Speaker 2: I still had to adjust and to not just to

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Speaker 2: people who looked like me physically, but also people who didn't.

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Speaker 2: So I actually think of that as a great blessing

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Speaker 2: in how I grew up, that you're sort of forced

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Speaker 2: to just look at every person individually and just say,

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Speaker 2: what can we have in common? Because there's undoubtedly something,

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Speaker 2: and finding that thing was always more important than finding

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Speaker 2: the things that we didn't have in common.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and now a word from our sponsors who make

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Speaker 1: the show possible. Well, and I think that's something that's

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Speaker 1: missing from our discourse in general today. We're being so

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Speaker 1: encouraged to other people in a negative way rather than

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Speaker 1: to be fascinated by people's otherness. And I you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't grow up in the same circumstances you did,

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Speaker 1: but I feel a kinship in terms of the way

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Speaker 1: you talk about your childhood, because you know, I came

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Speaker 1: here with the intense lore of coming here for the

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Speaker 1: American dream. You know, my grandmother was brought over by

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Speaker 1: my great grandparents on a boat from Italy. You know,

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Speaker 1: my mom still remembers when her mother forbade her grandparents

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Speaker 1: from speaking Italian to her because they were trying so

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Speaker 1: hard to assimilate. And there is the wanting to belong

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Speaker 1: and also the loss in the belonging because then you know,

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Speaker 1: my mom lost her language. My dad came here to

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Speaker 1: go to university, and you know, just knowing how long

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Speaker 1: it took him to become a citizen. When people are

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Speaker 1: like do it the right way, I'm like, take several seats,

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Speaker 1: like you literally have no idea.

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Speaker 2: Most people have no idea. How long and large was

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Speaker 2: the quote unquote right way is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't know. And I and I think perhaps

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Speaker 1: because of their stories, I wonder if there's something about

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Speaker 1: that that desire to know people in their stories that

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Speaker 1: leads a lot of us down the journalism path. Do

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Speaker 1: you think maybe that's what drew you in that direction

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Speaker 1: as you as you made your way to Harvard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it's about stories, you know. I

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Speaker 2: mean I think that fundamentally history, politics, culture, it's the

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Speaker 2: story of us, how we came to be and also

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Speaker 2: where we're going. And I think I've always been drawn

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Speaker 2: to that. I've been drawn to the way in which

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Speaker 2: history sort of paints a picture that leads us to

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Speaker 2: the present. And I also have been drawn to the

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Speaker 2: way in which our present day actions are doing the

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Speaker 2: same thing for the people in the future. And so yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I just think we as human beings we

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Speaker 2: have so much power and agency and the ability to

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Speaker 2: kind of shift space and time around our actions. And

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Speaker 2: that's always been fascinating to me because I think of

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Speaker 2: my whole life as a bit of an anthropological moment, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, when a family leaves one place and goes

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Speaker 2: to another, they create a whole new timeline for their descendants.

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Speaker 2: And I'm literally living in that timeline that was created

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Speaker 2: for me in part because of my parents' actions, and

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Speaker 2: who I am as a person is because of their decisions.

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Speaker 2: It's because of my experiences growing up as a child

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Speaker 2: living in one place and coming to another and knowing

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Speaker 2: what that feels like to have to adapt and change

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Speaker 2: and adjust. And I think that is that's my story,

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Speaker 2: but everybody has a story like that, and I find

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Speaker 2: that fundamentally interesting because that tells us a lot about

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Speaker 2: what people are really like, what they're gonna do, what

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Speaker 2: motivates them, what's important to them. And the truth is

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Speaker 2: that we have all of those things. We have those

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Speaker 2: things in common more than I think we know. And

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Speaker 2: in a way, I mean the politics of it all,

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Speaker 2: Like I mean, I love politics because I do think

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Speaker 2: that is sort of history in the present day. But

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Speaker 2: I do think that if there's one thing that's wrong

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Speaker 2: with politics, it's the way that it flattens us all

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Speaker 2: into just kind of two dimensional R and D or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is. And I think the promise of journalism

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Speaker 2: is that we kind of expand the dimensions of who

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Speaker 2: people really are beyond just what labels they put next

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Speaker 2: to their names, and really start to learn more about

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Speaker 2: what really motivates them, how they came to be. And

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Speaker 2: I think that is what I have always been drawn

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Speaker 2: to in doing this.

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Speaker 1: I love that when you started, I guess rather, when

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Speaker 1: you decided to study government, did you imagine that you

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Speaker 1: were going to work in and on the political process

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Speaker 1: before journalism or was it the study of government that

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Speaker 1: led you to want to be a journalist? Like, how

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Speaker 1: did the light bulb for you in terms of your

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Speaker 1: path get illuminated?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was kind of. Well, the truth is that

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Speaker 2: when I decided that I wanted to pursue journalism, I

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Speaker 2: was actually studying at Harvard. It was called social studies,

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Speaker 2: and it was sort of like, it's a little bit

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Speaker 2: like government, a little bit like philosophy. And I switched

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Speaker 2: to government for a number of reasons, some of them practical.

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Speaker 2: One was that I wanted to do a journalism internship

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Speaker 2: this summer that I would otherwise have needed to write

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Speaker 2: a thesis. So I decided to do the journalism internship first.

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Speaker 2: But also I knew I was very interested in political journalism,

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Speaker 2: and studying government sort of the structure of government and

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Speaker 2: how it works was sort of a way of kind

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Speaker 2: of deepening my understanding of that work. And so it

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Speaker 2: wasn't that I was studying it and decided to do journalism,

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Speaker 2: and I definitely did not want to work in government.

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Speaker 2: I think I knew that clearly pretty early on. I've

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Speaker 2: never really been much of a follower. I just I'm

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Speaker 2: not really a big fan of joining a team, so

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Speaker 2: to speak, and so the idea of being a part

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Speaker 2: of a political party as a you know, political strategist

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Speaker 2: or worker of some kind or definitely not a politician,

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Speaker 2: that just was never appealing to me. I think I've

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Speaker 2: always loved the sort of outsider role, the place that

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Speaker 2: journalism sits that is somewhere between the two party system

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Speaker 2: that we have, where we have the ability to kind

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Speaker 2: of probe into the teams, so to speak, and just

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Speaker 2: have a different relationship with our political system. So it's

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Speaker 2: never really been. I just I knew I have no

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Speaker 2: interest in actually being in politics in that way.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, like you'd rather play tennis not soccer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you know, you're like, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to have.

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Speaker 1: To necessarily go where everyone's going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting the way you talk about journalism. It strikes

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Speaker 1: me that it's really it's a kind of engaged participatory voyeurism.

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Speaker 1: It allows you to do two things at once, because

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Speaker 1: you observe and you also really get involved, and then

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Speaker 1: you move back to the observing And in a way,

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Speaker 1: the position of watching to glean information and be able

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Speaker 1: to translate all of it into a story allows you,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, to be welcomed into certain spaces that

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Speaker 1: had you gone into traditional government work, you wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think that's a great way to put it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think journalism is apart from the the arena.

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Speaker 2: You're not in the arena in the same way that

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Speaker 2: political actors are, and we are in an observation role

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Speaker 2: to some extent. But I think the participatory part is

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Speaker 2: also really important because we are a player, a key player.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the First Amendment is the First Amendment for

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Speaker 2: a reason, because you literally cannot have a democracy without

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Speaker 2: a free press. And I do think that as a

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Speaker 2: journalist we do have responsibilities, and one of it is

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Speaker 2: to the truth as far as we can ascertain it,

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Speaker 2: and the other is, I think to the public, to

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Speaker 2: the citizen, and the citizen, in my view, is who

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Speaker 2: we work for. That's who we work on. Behalf of

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Speaker 2: that is who we sometimes are in a position to

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Speaker 2: speak for. That is who voices we are responsible for

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Speaker 2: las or illuminating. And so that responsibility is massive, but

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Speaker 2: it also has incredible impact. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons I was decided that journalism was going to be

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Speaker 2: what I did was because when I was looking back

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Speaker 2: and studying the Civil rights movement, it was so clear

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Speaker 2: to me that that era would not have had the

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Speaker 2: impact that it did had it not been for the

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Speaker 2: role of journalism in bringing these stories to life, in

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Speaker 2: literally going to the places and saying to you know,

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Speaker 2: some family in Ohio, this is what it's like in

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Speaker 2: you know, the Mississippi Delta. This is what it's like

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Speaker 2: in the places where black people can't even drink from

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Speaker 2: the same water fountain as white people. And there were

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Speaker 2: so many Americans who had no idea what was happening

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Speaker 2: in their own country, and so the role of journalist

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Speaker 2: in just talking about those stories and putting it on

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Speaker 2: the front pages is massive. And that's the active part

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Speaker 2: of this democracy that we are participants in. We don't

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Speaker 2: have to be on a team in order to play

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Speaker 2: a role, and I think it is important actually for

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Speaker 2: there to be journalists who really aren't on a team,

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Speaker 2: because I know that right now there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of journalists who they their liberals, their conservatives, and that's fine,

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Speaker 2: but I also think that there is a need, a

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Speaker 2: necessity for there to be people who are not doing that.

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Speaker 1: It's so important to pull back and remember that being

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Speaker 1: impartial can be a requirement for clear communication. And that

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Speaker 1: also feels really hard, you know, on my end, as

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Speaker 1: a very engaged citizen, you know, I know, spend more

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Speaker 1: time in the sort of news cycle and on the

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Speaker 1: political stuff than a lot of people can or want to.

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Speaker 1: By the way, no harm, no foul, but it makes

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Speaker 1: me feel crazy. You know. For example, you talk about

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Speaker 1: journalists working for the people. Yes, you know, our courts

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Speaker 1: are supposed to work for the people, and we currently

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Speaker 1: are in a time with this current administration where fealty

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Speaker 1: to the administration is being demanded. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: shifts at CBS, you see people getting fired, you see

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Speaker 1: anchors being pulled off the air. You see news organizations

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Speaker 1: paying the president even though they told the truth. Like

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Speaker 1: your alma mater, Harvard is in this thing with Trump

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Speaker 1: and they're going to pay him. Like when you know

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Speaker 1: that that impartial requirement matters for how communication is done,

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Speaker 1: how do you make sense of all this stuff that

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Speaker 1: is so impartial. Do you feel like these institutions are

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Speaker 1: being captured or do you feel like we're just midway

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Speaker 1: through a chess game and people are trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to get to the other side of the board.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it might be just that that

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Speaker 2: we are in the middle of We're in the middle

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Speaker 2: of a moment, and it's a very significant moment, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know really how it's going to end. I

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Speaker 2: don't think the story is over the you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't think the game is done. I think we're just

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Speaker 2: we're right in the middle of it. And you know,

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Speaker 2: if there's anything I learned from my studies of government

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Speaker 2: is that the structure of these institutions really matters, and

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Speaker 2: we live in a society where we have all these

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Speaker 2: layers of these layers of structures that are intended to

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Speaker 2: protect democracy, and sometimes we find gaps where there are

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Speaker 2: they're just blind spots, where there are things that the

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Speaker 2: framers didn't even envision that are happening that we're dealing with,

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Speaker 2: and where sometimes many layers of those structures are being

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Speaker 2: captured all at once and we don't know what that

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Speaker 2: means because it's never happened before. So that's how I

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Speaker 2: kind of look at it, is that we are still

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Speaker 2: seeing how our institutions and our democratic structures hold up

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Speaker 2: in this moment under probably the most concerted effort to

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Speaker 2: control and restructure them that I think our democracy has

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Speaker 2: ever seen. And I don't know how it's going to end,

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Speaker 2: that's the truth. But I do think what I've seen

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Speaker 2: is a bit of a mixed bag, and that's good. Actually.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's meant to be that way, that

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Speaker 2: the system is actually meant to produce a lot of

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Speaker 2: different outcomes and it averages out to something in the end.

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Speaker 2: But I think it is a good sign that you

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Speaker 2: can see that sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. That's

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Speaker 2: what it's supposed to be. Like if it were that

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Speaker 2: one team was winning one hundred percent of the time,

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Speaker 2: that would be a different story. And I know that

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Speaker 2: sometimes it feels that way to people, but I think

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Speaker 2: it is not that way. Based on the fact that

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Speaker 2: I follow a lot of this stuff very closely, I

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Speaker 2: think it is still a mixed bag. And I think

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Speaker 2: what that tells me is that we still have this

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Speaker 2: really kind of brilliant system in which there are so

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Speaker 2: many different checks and balances on power that no one's

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Speaker 2: ever really able to run all the way to the

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Speaker 2: end zone without encountering resistance. And that is the way

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Speaker 2: that this place is supposed to operate, And as long

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Speaker 2: as that continues to happen, I have a lot of

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Speaker 2: confidence still in the way that this country is set up.

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Speaker 2: And on the impartiality question, I mean, I think that

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Speaker 2: this has been one of the most hotly debated things

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Speaker 2: right in journalism. Is it possible even to be objective?

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Speaker 2: Is it possible to even be impartial? And sometimes I

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Speaker 2: think that's the wrong question to ask. I think the

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Speaker 2: right question is are you approaching every story with openness

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Speaker 2: and empathy? And I think that if you can do

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Speaker 2: that you. What that requires is an acknowledgment of who

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Speaker 2: you are and some of the things that you bring

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Speaker 2: to the table because of who you are and where

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Speaker 2: you come from and what you know, and also what's

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Speaker 2: in front of you, recognizing that what's in front of

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Speaker 2: you might be different from what you know, and being

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Speaker 2: open to what you're hearing and you're seeing. And I

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Speaker 2: think that is really that's the real challenge of journalism,

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Speaker 2: because I think for too long people have thought that

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Speaker 2: they were burying their biases, and they weren't. They were

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Speaker 2: just trying to present their biases as impartiality when it

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Speaker 2: was not. And I think that just being upfront about

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Speaker 2: how you come to a story and also being open

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Speaker 2: to what is actually in front of you, that is

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Speaker 2: the real test of journalism. That's why it's so important

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Speaker 2: to go places and actually talk to people, because when

438
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: you talk to people, you receive what they are telling

439
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: you that is sometimes different from what you might believe.

440
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. I think one

441
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: of the wisest adages I've ever heard is that you

442
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: read things as you are, not necessarily as they've been written,

443
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that's incredibly true for the

444
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: political discourse. When you read someone's comment under an Instagram

445
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: post of a news story, or someone retorts to you

446
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: on a social media platform, you're not having a real conversation.

447
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 1: And I think one of the great privileges in my

448
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: life that I think overlaps with my very favorite profession,

449
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: which is yours, is that we get to travel a lot.

450
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: And so for me, even with political advocacy or working

451
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: on things like paid leave for all or trying to

452
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: get better health care protections for people, sometimes people don't

453
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: understand why I'm really passionate about that, And it's because

454
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: I spent ten years surrounded by union workers in North Carolina,

455
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: and you know, time in Ottawa and Vancouver and small

456
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: town New Mexico and Texas and upstate New York and

457
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 1: in California and this enormous city we're in today, And

458
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: like everywhere I go, I learn people's stories, and I

459
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: learn about their families, and I learn about why they

460
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: do the jobs they do and the ways they're protected

461
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: and they aren't. And so those stories feel important for

462
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: me to carry. And I think for anyone who has

463
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: a mission of advocating or telling the truth somewhere, you

464
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: carry people's stories with you.

465
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that when you talk to people,

466
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: you see how multi dimensional they are. Yes, And I

467
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: think that is the That's a thing I'll think a

468
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: lot of people don't understand about just voters out there,

469
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: that yeah, they have a lot of contradictory views on things,

470
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: and that's because people are complex and they see different

471
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: parts of their lives in different ways, and being open

472
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: to that is really important because again politics Sometimes in politics,

473
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: it's the job of a political party to have all

474
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: these things that they believe in, and most people who

475
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: align themselves with that political party probably believe in a

476
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: lot of those things. But there are many, many people

477
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: who take a little bit from over here, from the

478
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: left and a little bit from the right, and they're

479
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: somewhere in the kind of weird, bizarre middle and it

480
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: doesn't really make a lot of sense to you, but

481
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: that's okay. And giving voice to those people is super

482
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: important because guess what, those are the people who actually

483
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: determine how elections go in this country. They're the ones

484
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: with the kind of strange, weird points of view on

485
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: all these different issues, and you don't know exactly where

486
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: they're going to come down, Well, guess what, they're the deciders.

487
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: And so those types of people I encounter all the time,

488
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: and I think they probably could be better represented in

489
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: our public discourse. I mean, I also think that, you know,

490
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: when we talk about characteristics of different people. And I

491
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: remember a couple of years ago, I was in Kansas

492
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: doing a story after the Dobbs decision, and I went

493
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: into this working class Latino neighborhood and was talking to

494
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: people about it because there are actually a lot of

495
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: Latino voters in Kansas that were actually very significant in

496
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 2: those elections. And you know, the thing that I think

497
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't see is the way that

498
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: Latino voters are, many of them deeply religious people, and

499
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: they're hard working, and they have personal views that are

500
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: actually very strong about things like abortion, but their political

501
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: decision making is different from their personal views, and that

502
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: viewpoint doesn't really get represented all that much. And voters

503
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: like that are why in Kansas they protected abortion rights

504
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: in that state. And so when we fail to surface

505
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: those viewpoints, will miss those stories that diverge from conventional wisdom.

506
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: And that's why it is so important to not only

507
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: go out and talk to those people, but to also

508
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: really kind of unveil their complexity to the public so

509
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: that people understand that people are not parodies. They're not

510
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: like you know, they're not cardboard cutouts. They're real people

511
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: with all these depths to them. And that is what

512
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: creates sort of a dynamism in our political system that

513
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: I personally find super interesting.

514
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: Well, and it's also so refreshing to hear you speak

515
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: about people that way, because it's a great reminder that

516
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: no person is a stereotype, no person is just a

517
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: data point. You know, that that kind of dynamic, and

518
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: I would say very human reality of saying I believe this,

519
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: but I don't think my beliefs should legislate everyone else's lives.

520
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: That's that's a powerful example, you know. And I and

521
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: I think when we when we consider, as you were

522
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: saying earlier, that right now we are making marks that

523
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: people who come after us will look back at. Those

524
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: are the kinds of marks I hope we get to make.

525
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: That we figure out how to show up and allow

526
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: people to be fuller humans and listen before we judge,

527
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: and perhaps advocate for the best outcomes for the total

528
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: of us. You know, you hear a lot lately about

529
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: how people are focusing on the wrong one percent, and

530
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, you think and it it really does. When

531
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: I think about it, it feels like we've gotten people

532
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: really hyped up about some of the wrong things and

533
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: missing we're missing our legacy and we've clearly forgotten some

534
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: of our history. And that's why I'm so excited about

535
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: your book, because I feel like a broken record at

536
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: this point, being like, is anybody paying attention to the

537
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: correlation between what's happening now in Germany in the nineteen

538
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: twenties and nineteen thirties, And it's like the history nerd

539
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: in me is just flipping out all the time. And

540
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: you gave me another gorgeous piece of history to dive into,

541
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, elements of which I've studied. And there's things

542
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: in your book that I learned for the first time.

543
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: And for our friends who are going to watch our

544
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: little clips, yes I have it here, and yes, I

545
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: also brought a sharpie so I can ask you to

546
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: sign it for me later. And I did the thing

547
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: because I'm so excited about this, where I prepped for

548
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: the podcast, reading the pdf, making notes on my iPad

549
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to absolutely destroy the call of

550
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: the book, because I can never read a book and

551
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: then give it to anyone. They're just like, what is

552
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: what is this?

553
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: Like?

554
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: What is this Gray Gardens thing? You've handed to me

555
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: in tatters?

556
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: But I love it. You're a close reader.

557
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I I really I've been so excited about

558
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: this and I I'm just so curious. You know. You

559
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: you take us back through Jesse Jackson's presidential campaigns in

560
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Yea, and from this moment this time,

561
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, ten years into trump Ism and the the

562
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: intensity of the firefights we see in the digital world,

563
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: particularly over politics.

564
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: What was it.

565
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: About this story for you that made you say, this

566
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: is what I want to put out into the world,

567
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: and this is the time that I want to do it.

568
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I think that this story actually has

569
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: a lot of lessons for where we are right now

570
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: in this country, because I do think we're in a

571
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: moment of kind of backlash against the growing diversity of

572
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: the country. I think that there's also an active fight

573
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: going on about who can speak to and appeal to

574
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: the working class, and both of those themes are kind

575
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: of at the heart of what was happening with Jesse

576
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: Jackson's campaigns in the nineteen eighties as well. One of

577
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: the key lessons that can be taken away from his

578
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: campaigns is the way that he argued in favor of

579
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: seeing people with those multiple dimensions. That we were just

580
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 2: talking about the way in which people have all these

581
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: different desires and all these different motivations, and that even

582
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: though we might all look different, we might be black

583
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: or white, or women or men, or farmers or city

584
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: workers or whatever it is, factory workers, we share a

585
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: common desire to have a better life, to have a

586
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: government that works for us, to have a society that

587
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: feels like it is invested in its citizens and not

588
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: in other pursuits. And that was a lot of what

589
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: he campaigned on in the eighties. And I think that

590
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: one of the unfinished pieces of this is actually what

591
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 2: do we do in this moment of division where it's

592
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: actually very effective to divide us along all of these

593
00:38:53,680 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: different identities, and can candidates figure out how to do

594
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: the opposite, how to actually bring people together, not by

595
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: ignoring who they are, but by saying, I see who

596
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: you are, and I acknowledge it, but also let me

597
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: show you what we all have in common. I think

598
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: that that is that I call that unfinished business, because

599
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 2: I do think that is still yet to be done.

600
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: And I think there is a lot in Jesse Jackson's

601
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: vision for politics, his dream, so to speak, that I

602
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: think is still worth contemplating today. Can it be done?

603
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: And in a way, both parties are kind of engaged

604
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: in that conversation to some extent, or at least it

605
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: seemed to be in the last election, where you know,

606
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, despite all the rhetoric, I think

607
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: the Trump campaign actually they were carrying out like a

608
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: get out the vote strategy that was geared toward all

609
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: these different groups and had some success in chipping away

610
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: at the Democrats diverse coalition. And so I do think

611
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: that that reality, plus the fact that the Democratic Party

612
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: does right now have as its base a very diverse coalition,

613
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: means that there just seems to be a sort of

614
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: refocusing on what does it really mean to craft a

615
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: message that can actually speak to all Americans, that doesn't

616
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: slice and dice them along their different identities, but finds

617
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: the unifying ties. And you know, Jesse Jackson used to

618
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 2: talk about the country as a quilt. He used to

619
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: talk about his grandmother using scraps of clothing because they

620
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: grew up very poor in South Carolina, and to make

621
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: a quilt that would keep them warm in the winters.

622
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: And he would talk about all the different parts of

623
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: this country as being a part of a quilt. And

624
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: I think that is still for so many of us

625
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 2: who really do believe in the beauty of this very

626
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 2: diverse country, that is still something that is worth aspiring toward,

627
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 2: regardless of your political persuasion. And I still think that

628
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: there is a lot of work that needs to be

629
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: done to bring our politics to a place where that

630
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: really we can say that that really is true.

631
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: It's interesting because that took my breath away. It's a

632
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: metaphor that my best friend and I use a lot

633
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: about communities that we want to connect and connect with

634
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: and sort of coalitions of support that we are always

635
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: working to network across the country, and we talk about

636
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: this quilt all the time. It feels so imperative to

637
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: do the thing you're talking about to remind people that

638
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: what we have in common. I mean, we're literally each

639
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: other's name, right, And I think his messaging was so

640
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: effective at the time, and to your point, when you know,

641
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: we were only fifteen years after the fever pitch of

642
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. I won't say the civil rights

643
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: movement because it's not like it ended. But one of

644
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: the things that struck me is that in the eighty

645
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: four and eighty eight runs, his candidacy really pushed the

646
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: Democratic Party to acknowledge that black voters are indispensable.

647
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: And it's so.

648
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: Important that it was said, And it strikes me as

649
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: one of those things that also does what you're talking about,

650
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: which is if everyone gets bucketed by their identity. You know,

651
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: Latino voters who carry personal beliefs but will vote to

652
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: protect you know, reproductive rights access, black voters, Black voters

653
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: in the South, black voters in the North, you know, women,

654
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: collegiate women, you know, whatever. All the ways we get

655
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: kind of siloed. The silos can be destructive, but the

656
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: recognition of people's identity and what they bring to a

657
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: conversation and their lived experience and their expertise based on

658
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: their diverse identities is also so imperative. So how do

659
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: you make sense of.

660
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: That? Seesaw? Yeah, it's both of those things, and it's

661
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 2: such a It is a nuance, right because I think

662
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: that sometimes when people talk about identities, they want them

663
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: to disappear, as if they don't exist. But I think

664
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: that is that's one version of doing it. The other

665
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: version of doing it is to say, I recognize who

666
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: you are and your individuality, what you bring to the table,

667
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 2: what matters to you. I'm saying that you can take

668
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: your individuality and hold hands with someone else who has

669
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: a different experience, and you can have a shared sense

670
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: of purpose. And in a way, I do think that

671
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: that actually comes out of Jesse Jackson's experience in the

672
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 2: Civil Rights movement, because when you really think about what

673
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 2: that movement did, it actually helped spur change not just

674
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: for Black people, but for all kinds of other people,

675
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: for women, for LGBTQ people, for Asian Americans, for Arab Americans,

676
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: you name it, Latino Americans. I think that that movement

677
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: gave all these other movements sort of language and power

678
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: in the political system. And the civil rights movement has

679
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: not ever just been liberation and justice for black people.

680
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: It's been for making the country actually live up to

681
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: its promise to everyone. And so because of that tradition,

682
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: when he comes into the nineteen eighties and says that

683
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: black voters are going to lead the way, We're going

684
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: to use our political power to force the Democratic Party

685
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: to recognize all of us. I think that was just

686
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: a continuation of the story that began in the fifties

687
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: and the sixties in the height of that civil rights

688
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: movement that everybody now understands and knows, and it is

689
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: the black struggle has always been inseparable from the struggles

690
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: of all these other people. In some cases, he would

691
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: go to the South and campaign there and had a

692
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: lot of support from black voters, but he would also

693
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: be speaking to white voters and he would say to them,

694
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: it's really only the cynics and the people who are

695
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: full of hate who want you to believe that you

696
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: have more in common with the uber wealthy white man

697
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 2: than you do with the working class black man. And

698
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: the message was essentially that there are people who want

699
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 2: to divide you along race, but that's not really the

700
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: power struggle that you're fighting against. And I think he

701
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 2: was offering he was offering a handout in two white

702
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 2: Americans who at that time were not that interested in

703
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 2: listening to or voting for a black man, and essentially

704
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 2: saying that everything that you've been taught about race being

705
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: the dividing line between us is not really the thing.

706
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 2: The real thing is whether or not you have economic opportunity,

707
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: and whether I have economic opportunity, and that message I

708
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: think he took to the South, he took to the Midwest,

709
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: to farmers, he took to rural parts of the country,

710
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: to urban parts of the country, and it resonated because

711
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: there really weren't other people talking like that and openly

712
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: acknowledging that some people actually needed a little bit of

713
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: help getting past what they had always known, and a

714
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: lot of people listened. He had a lot of support

715
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: from white farmers, who he literally spent before he was

716
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: running a night between nineteen eighty four and nineteen eighty eight.

717
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: He would go and he would rally with them when

718
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 2: they were about to lose their family farms, and he

719
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: built solidarity with them through his actions, not just through

720
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: campaign speeches. And there is a lesson in that in

721
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: not giving up on people, not deciding that, oh, those

722
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 2: people are never going to be for you, so let's

723
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: not talk to them, not assuming that they have biases

724
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 2: that you can't get passed. I think he blew past

725
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: so much of that and never took that as a

726
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 2: given that somebody wouldn't listen to him because they were

727
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: biased against him, which they might very well have been.

728
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 2: But he was from the South, so he was used

729
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: to being around racist white people that he had grown

730
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: up around in the Jim Crow South, and so it

731
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: never that part never faced him. And I think that

732
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: in a way, we might need to remember a little

733
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: bit of that, because I think there are a lot

734
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: of people right now who want to just say, well,

735
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: they're bad people, let's not talk to them, and I

736
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: just don't. I don't know that our democracy can survive

737
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 2: that writing off people because you assume that they can't

738
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 2: be persuaded, or you assume that they can't be brought

739
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: into your column. I think the act of persuasion is

740
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: the practice of democracy, and you cannot write people off

741
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: if you say you want to practice democracy.

742
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: I love that. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors,

743
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: would you say that's one of the greatest lessons of

744
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: working on this, because I get really geeked when I

745
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: think about the years you got to spend researching this

746
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: and interviewing everyone around him and being in his world.

747
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's like a dream project, right, But I

748
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: wonder when I think of the size and scope of

749
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 1: it and the sort of you know, stories you're telling

750
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: about something as upper echelon in the world as running

751
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: for president, when I bring it down to sort of imagine,

752
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, Abby at her computer, like, what do you

753
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: think the most surprising personal takeaways have been for you,

754
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: not just as an author, but as the total you,

755
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: the individual.

756
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it made me really think about how

757
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: history we'll see what we're doing right now. Because I

758
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: did spend a lot of time going back and reading

759
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: and watching the coverage of him at the time that

760
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: he was running, and seeing with twenty twenty five eyes

761
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: the biases that were sort of embedded in how he

762
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: was talked about. I think it really kind of crystallized

763
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: how important it is to be mindful of that and

764
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: not just there were plenty of I think racial biases

765
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 2: and how he was covered, for sure, but even biases

766
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 2: in terms of when we see something different come out

767
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: in the political sphere, the media has a tendency to

768
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 2: dismiss it because it's unfamiliar. And that was true then

769
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: and it's true now. And I do think that openness

770
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: to phenomenon that defy recent history, that challenge the status quo,

771
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: that challenge what we know about politics is super important

772
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: because if you're not able to do that, you might

773
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 2: miss something that's extraordinary that's happening right in front of you.

774
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: And I do think that, frankly, a lot of journalism

775
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: missed this story in the nineteen eighties. They missed how

776
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: truly remarkable it was. And looking back on it, there

777
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: were so many moments that I was like, if that

778
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 2: had happened today, it would be a completely Banana's thing,

779
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 2: Like it would just be it would just like rock

780
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: the political world. Like the type of candidate he was.

781
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: He was dynamic and interesting, and honestly, I went back

782
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 2: and I was talking to a lot of the journalists

783
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: who covered him than who I actually, some of whom

784
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 2: I know now, and you know, a lot of them

785
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: said to me he was the most interesting candidate they

786
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 2: had ever covered, just the most exciting candidate that most

787
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: of these journalists had ever covered. But they couldn't really

788
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 2: convey that because it was considered kind of naive to

789
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 2: say that, to express that he was capturing the imagination

790
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 2: of Americans with just how different he was for all

791
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: kinds of obvious reasons and other reasons like getting on

792
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: a plane and going to Syria and bringing back an

793
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: American prisoner of war, and you know, just doing things

794
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: that contravened conventional wisdom. And I think as a person

795
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 2: who's practicing journalism today, it is a reminder to me

796
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 2: that open mindedness is the job. That is a huge

797
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: part of the job, because people at that time, I think,

798
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 2: were not really listening to what voters were telling them

799
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: about what they were interested in and why they found

800
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 2: him so compelling, and they kept looking for all these

801
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 2: different reasons why they needed to sort of put Jesse

802
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: Jackson in a box. And that's a lesson for all

803
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 2: of us that we should probably do a little bit better,

804
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: and I think we are doing better, to be honest.

805
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: I think frankly, the industry is more diverse. I think

806
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: they're way more voices involved now and that's a good thing.

807
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 2: But that really struck out to me because I do

808
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 2: think that he's a type of figure that I think,

809
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: had he been placed in a different context, have ended

810
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 2: a little bit differently.

811
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: And how do you think about portraying his contradictions right,

812
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: Because he had this visionary leadership style and he had

813
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: personal controversies.

814
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

815
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: The reality is every human, even our best leaders are human.

816
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: You know, people fail, they're fallible, they're complicated, as you

817
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier with even our you know, our voting blocks. Like,

818
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: is it a strange thing to admire someone and to

819
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: admire so much of their character and to have to

820
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: talk about their flaws.

821
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: As a journalist? No, I mean I think that that's

822
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 2: what makes it a good story. Yeah, And I don't

823
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: even know that admiration is really the totality of it.

824
00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 2: I think what it really is is that he is

825
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 2: a complex person, like pretty much all of our leaders, right,

826
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 2: every single one of them. And in order to tell

827
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 2: this story about why he was both a consequential and

828
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: extraordinary person but also why he came up short, you

829
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: have to explain where he fell short. You can't get

830
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 2: to that without explaining it. And some of it is personal,

831
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: some of it is actually also in his leadership style,

832
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 2: the way in which he had certain extraordinary gifts and skills,

833
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 2: but also certain weaknesses and shortcomings. And you just can't

834
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: tell the story without telling the full story. And we

835
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 2: do like to lionize people and pretend like they don't

836
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 2: have flaws in order to feel comfortable telling their stories

837
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: in order to Yeah, I mean, and I think that

838
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: that's we should just face that. Yeah, you know, as

839
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: human beings, I understand where that comes from. We want

840
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: people in our minds to be perfect in order to

841
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 2: be remembered. And that's not really how history works. That's

842
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: not really how human beings work.

843
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: Does it strike you as kind of interesting though, that

844
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: that at least the men at this point are allowed

845
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 1: to be fabulous and flawed and the women are still

846
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: held to the perfectionism standard? Like what the hell?

847
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, you know, I it's so interesting because I

848
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: do think that because there have just been way more

849
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: men like doing this thing, there is more of a

850
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: textured treatment of them, But because there are fewer women

851
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: who have done it, there isn't right.

852
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: They're still flattened. More men are allowed to be a

853
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: little more.

854
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: Threat But I mean, I also think that, to be honest,

855
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: I think that I sometimes I wonder whether women who

856
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: support women as I know that you do, are okay

857
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: with that, because you know, sometimes that means that the

858
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: woman candidate that you love is going to come under scrutiny,

859
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: that her flaws are going to be revealed and talked

860
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: about in the same way as her strengths. And I

861
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: do think you have to be both. In order to

862
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: be allowed to have weaknesses, you also have to be

863
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: willing to be critiqued for them. Yes, so both things

864
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 2: have to be true. And the critique that I would

865
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: give to a lot of my friends who I know

866
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 2: aren't just profoundly supportive of the few women candidates who

867
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 2: have tried to run for president, is that sometimes I

868
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: think there's an unwillingness to hear the critiques. And you know,

869
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: in politics, when you run for president, man, you've got

870
00:57:54,480 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: to have the thickest possible skin, right. And the thing

871
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: about these men is that they never let their flaws

872
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: and their weaknesses stop them from doing something. And I

873
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: think that that is still part of what women haven't

874
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: really been able to get past. Like I think we

875
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: hold ourselves women to a higher standard, a be the

876
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 2: world holds us to a higher standard. But also see,

877
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 2: I think there is this sort of willingness for the critiques,

878
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: even coming from from your friends, to be out there

879
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 2: and for it to not be taken personally and not

880
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 2: be taken as sort of the end of the world

881
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,479
Speaker 2: and just taking it as part of the journey in

882
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: public life. I think we're still not there yet. And

883
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: you know, I think about I covered Hillary in twenty sixteen,

884
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: I've covered common Harris. I've seen how both of these

885
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 2: women have had a lot of fair and unfair criticism.

886
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 2: But I also think that I also see how their

887
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: allies try to create a cocoon around them. And I

888
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: don't know that the cocoon is helpful, Yeah, because I

889
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 2: think that the peep the complexity of the person is

890
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 2: part of actually what needs to be revealed, communicated and communicated.

891
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting. I love thinking about that. And

892
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: it's a great point that you make when you talk

893
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 1: about the fair and the unfair criticism. I think because

894
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: so much of it is unfair and outsized, it makes everyone.

895
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: You know, It's almost like when your therapist gives you

896
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: the adage of how full is your cup? And if

897
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: your cup is really full, and then more is poured in,

898
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: it's spilling out everywhere. It's like the women get more

899
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: dumped in their cups and then what should be relatively

900
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: normal becomes.

901
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: Outsized in a way.

902
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: And I also think that's kind of to your earlier point.

903
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: The fault of a society that's not as used to

904
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: seeing women in these spaces. Is you know, if a

905
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: woman was running for president with three baby daddies and

906
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 1: an affair with a porn star, like, she never would

907
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: get on a ticket she just wanted. So it's like,

908
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: you can't ignore the double standard. And perhaps one of

909
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: the ways we change it is as you're suggesting to

910
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: just own our shit a little bit and be like, yeah,

911
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: I made a mistake and move on.

912
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know.

913
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty fascinating.

914
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: And it's I get it it trust me. I'm not

915
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 2: suggesting that it's like, oh no, I don't think you are.

916
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 2: You know, snap your finger and you're done. There is

917
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 2: just like in the same way that you know, when

918
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 2: Chessie Jackson was running as a celebrity candidate who had

919
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 2: never run for office before, who was sort of had

920
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 2: this sort of larger than life personality and was an

921
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 2: economic populist, it was like, get out of here. And

922
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 2: then you know, fast forward thirty years later and then

923
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: you get Donald Trump. It seems just unfair, right, because

924
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 2: it's just a different standard in a way. So I

925
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 2: get that that exists at the same time that I

926
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: think what we're sort of striving for for women candidates

927
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 2: or not just women in the world is that their

928
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: flaws are not weighted more than anybody else's, and that

929
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 2: their dimensions are also capable of being put out there.

930
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 2: That we can be whole people. We don't have to

931
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: be perfect people. And I do think that it's going

932
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: to take someone being willing to sort of just say

933
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 2: so what. I don't know when, but at some point

934
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 2: a woman candidate is going to come around and it's

935
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 2: going to sort of blow through some of that, and

936
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 2: that's what's going to be necessary to sort of get

937
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 2: women into that final tier of American politics, you know, belatedly,

938
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 2: even though the rest of the world is already there

939
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 2: ahead of Yeah.

940
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: Yes, please and now a word from our sponsors that

941
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: I really enjoy and I think you will too. When

942
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: I think about women in leadership positions, I often think

943
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: about the way you lead us on the news. You know,

944
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: your work on Newsnight is so valuable to me as

945
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: a viewer. I know to so many people you seem

946
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: to have really pierced the veil in certain ways, especially

947
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 1: when you get everybody around the desk and get people

948
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: talking like I just I love to see the way

949
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: you are shaking it up, and yet you are this

950
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: incredibly poised, trusted voice in our news media. And it's

951
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: not lost on me that, you know, especially after recent

952
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: shifts at CBS, like you're one of the few black

953
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: women anchoring a national news broadcast. So how does it

954
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: feel right now for you in that in that space?

955
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: Do you have these days where you go like this

956
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: shit can't be real? Or are you so you're so

957
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: on your game that you're like, and I will continue

958
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: through this crazy thing here and that crazy thing there.

959
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 2: How do you do this?

960
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: And and do you I guess it's a two prong question.

961
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: Do you also feel nervous because so much of people's

962
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: identities are being weaponized right now?

963
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 2: Like? How are you doing this? All? That part of it?

964
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: I'm pretty used to, you know, because I think that

965
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: one of the things about being a black woman in

966
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: news and on television is that everybody knows you're a

967
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 2: black woman television, and there are plenty of people who

968
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 2: on a regular basis try to weaponize my identity against me.

969
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 2: And the truth is you can't help that. So I

970
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: put that to the side. What I do on a

971
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 2: day to day basis is try to convene a conversation

972
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 2: that I don't think is happening enough in the country

973
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: where people from all different backgrounds have an opportunity to

974
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 2: talk to each other, to challenge each other, to have

975
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 2: their ideas heard, to have their ideas challenged, to be

976
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 2: pressed on the substance of the thing that they are

977
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: advocating for and not just the politics of it. And

978
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: it is hard. And you know, I kind of audit

979
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 2: myself and what I'm doing daily, you know, every day

980
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 2: I kind of think back on the last show and

981
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: I could have done this better? Or did I do

982
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 2: that right? Did I you know, am I approaching this

983
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 2: the right way? You know? All of that, Like that's

984
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 2: part of my practice because I don't see myself as infallible.

985
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 2: I don't want to be the center of that conversation.

986
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 2: I want to be the facilitator of it. And I

987
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 2: think that in these times like we have to constantly

988
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: be asking ourselves are we striking the right tone, the

989
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 2: right balance and doing that exercise? And I don't know.

990
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the media business for my entire

991
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 2: career has been changing, it continues to change. I've never

992
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 2: taken anything for granted in this business. I've never I

993
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: didn't ever have the luxury coming into journalism thinking that

994
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: I would ever have a job forever. And so I

995
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 2: do not think that right now. That's not I approach

996
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 2: this as this is what I'm doing right now, this

997
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 2: is what I'm you know, asked to do, call to do.

998
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 2: I'll do it to the best of my ability while

999
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 2: it's serving a purpose in this you know, news ecosystem.

1000
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: And there might be another challenge, it might look a

1001
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 2: little bit different, it might you know, it might evolve

1002
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 2: just in the same way our show has evolved. And

1003
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 2: that's okay, because I think we have to evolve. And

1004
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 2: so I don't I don't feel you know, I don't.

1005
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 2: I don't feel nervous in that respect. I just try

1006
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 2: to approach it with a sense of integrity every day. Yeah,

1007
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 2: and that's all I can do. And I if I

1008
01:06:56,080 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 2: know at the end of every show that my intention

1009
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 2: was to have the most interesting conversation that surfaced the

1010
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 2: things that I think would resonate with people at home,

1011
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: that challenged our guests in ways that are important, that

1012
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 2: raised topics that aren't getting discussed elsewhere, I'll feel like

1013
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 2: I've done my job, and I'll do it as long

1014
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 2: as I'm allowed to do it. In this crazy media

1015
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: world that we're in, and people, I mean, they attack

1016
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 2: me every day and it doesn't it doesn't matter, you know,

1017
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 2: because I think we can sometimes overweight, like what happens,

1018
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 2: especially on the Internet, so much more than it needs

1019
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 2: to be. And when I go out in the world

1020
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:56,439
Speaker 2: and I encounter people randomly, like totally randomly, and they'll

1021
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 2: be on the right and on the left, and they'll

1022
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 2: be like, I love your show, you know, and they'll

1023
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 2: be like, give Scott Jennings a break, and you know,

1024
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 2: I mean, they just they enjoy the back and forth.

1025
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 2: They enjoy the discussion. They enjoy the fact that it's

1026
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 2: challenging for guests to come on. And I hear from

1027
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 2: people who are like, oh, my extremely conservative grandmother loves

1028
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 2: your show, and or my extremely you know, liberal grandfather

1029
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 2: loves your show. And I just I love hearing those

1030
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 2: stories because those are real people.

1031
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,440
Speaker 1: In this moment, the show is going well. You're centered

1032
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: in your purpose and in your family. You have this

1033
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: book that is so beautiful, the culmination of years of work.

1034
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: When you look forward in your personal landscape, what feels

1035
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 1: like you're work in progress.

1036
01:08:53,560 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 2: Well, the elusive balance, right it doesn't really exist, but

1037
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 2: you know, I mean you come into periods where you're

1038
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 2: kind of like in the grind. And I definitely think

1039
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 2: doing this book, getting it out the door and into

1040
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 2: the world, that has been a major project, on top

1041
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 2: of keeping a little child alive and well. And you know,

1042
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 2: I do think that I look at my life as seasons,

1043
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 2: and I see this season kind of coming to an

1044
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 2: end and the beginning of a new season coming into being,

1045
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 2: and I really hope that my next season has a

1046
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 2: little bit more rest. But in my professional life, I

1047
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 2: also want a little bit more balance in terms of

1048
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 2: balancing the voices, the inside voices and the outside voices

1049
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 2: and bringing them together a little bit more. And so

1050
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I'm meditating on right now, you know,

1051
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 2: as this is sort of this project is sort of

1052
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 2: wrapping up, it's just an opportunity for me to think

1053
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 2: about what does it mean to sort of like take

1054
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 2: in a little bit more of life and let that

1055
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 2: kind of inspire more creativity in my personal life and

1056
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 2: in my work, and also getting more out of real people,

1057
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 2: because I think that is such a rich source of

1058
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 2: creativity in my journalistic work, and it's really important to

1059
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 2: figure that out, so I'm excited to try to do that.

1060
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:36,719
Speaker 1: Amazing. Thank you so much for today. I really appreciate

1061
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: you coming. I'm so happy for you, and the book

1062
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: is so beautiful and I can't wait to hear from

1063
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: all of our listeners about how they enjoy it.

1064
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. It was so nice talking

1065
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 2: to you too,