WEBVTT - Weekend Law: Election Cases, Musk Sweepstakes & SBF Cooperator 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.880 The Supreme Court stepped into the twenty twenty four election 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:17.479 this week, allowing Virginia to carry out a purge of 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.240 residents from its voter rolls on the eve of the 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:26.119 election without any explanation. The Court's conservative justices overrode the 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.640 decision of a federal court and a unanimous appeals court, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.000 which had found that the state's purge of about sixteen 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:38.600 hundred voters violated federal law. The National Voter Registration Act 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.240 prohibits systematic removals of voters in the ninety days before 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:48.360 an election. Republican Virginia Governor Glenn Younkin defended his order 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.000 for the purge, which was issued on August seventh, the 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.160 ninetieth day before the November fifth election here on CNN. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.800 Because it is done on an individualized basis by person, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.479 and because that person has in fact self identified as 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.280 a non citizen, this is not subject to the ninety 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.040 day blackout period in my view. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.720 The three liberal justices dissented, joining me is Elections law 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.120 expert Richard brough Fault, a professor at Columbia Law School. 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:24.160 Were you surprised that the Supreme Court intervened to reverse 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.839 the Fourth Circuit and the District Court. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.959 Judge, Yes, maybe I shouldn't have been, but yes I was. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.880 So the case involves a state effort to purge people 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.600 from the roles on the claim that they're non citizens. 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.760 Non citizens are not entitled to vote. It's illegal, and 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.160 states are allowed to remove any non citizens that are 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.360 on the ballot. But there is a provision in federal 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.120 law National Voter Registration Act, that prohibits mass purchase so 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.600 called systematic purchase within ninety days before the election, because 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.640 it makes it two difficult. People may be purged by mistake, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.600 and if it's a mass purge, it's actually difficult for 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.760 people to be aware of that and to respond. And 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.520 so that is illegal. But Virginia a conscious they adopted 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.760 such a program. The governor you shouldn't executive words to 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.440 that effect literally on the day that this so called 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.480 quiet or non virtually was supposed to begin, and basically 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.680 used some mix of DMV data and other databases to 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.960 conclude that people were not citizens DMV. When you get 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.760 a driver's license, you may be asked whether or not 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.560 you were a citizens. Some people checked non citizen by mistake, 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:22.880 some people check not aisms because they are not a 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.280 citizen when they get their driver's license, but some years 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:29.080 later become naturalized as citizens. So the state, using that 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.040 data and other data, went ahead and concluded that something 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.640 like sixteen hundred people were not citizens and needed to 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.040 be purged from the roles. And that was challenged on 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.440 the theory that violated the federal law. And also there 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.360 was evidence a number of these people who were bridge 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.280 were in fact citizens and were challenging th as individuals. 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.400 So that challenge went up the chain, so to speak, 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.520 to the federal district court and the appellate court tell 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:54.520 us what happened there. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.480 The Federal District Court in Virginia concluded that this was 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.320 a pretty straightforward violation the federal law, that it was 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.480 going on in this so called quiet period, that it 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.399 was a systematic removal effort, not based on individualized information 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.240 about individual voters, but basically a massive database information that 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.440 they were loading from one database to another. And the 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.200 Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed rather refused to overturn 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.919 the District Court's injunction. The Court of Appeals basically said 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:20.720 yes on the fact, it appears to us that this 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.840 is a violation of federal law and it should be stopped. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.160 The Supreme Court rather quickly by well, I'm coming to 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.360 say six three, but you know that three liberal justices 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.920 dissented because it was just an order. It's not clear 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.120 that all six of the others agreed, but looks like 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.880 by pretty much a party line vote without an opinion, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.200 basically reversed a fourth circuit and allowed this purge to 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.000 go forth. The purchase actually stopped, but the sixteen hundred 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:48.280 voters who were removed remain removed unless they can as 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.600 individuals go in and Virginia allows same day registration, go 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.800 in and prove that they are citizens and re register 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:56.720 and then vote. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:01.200 Virginia made several arguments, and one was that the quiet 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:06.120 period doesn't apply to non citizens. Another was that courts 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.040 shouldn't get involved because of what's known as the personal 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.440 principle right, so taking. 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.640 Them in reverse order. The problem with the per cl 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.680 principle in this case is, I mean, the only basis 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.960 for judicial intervention is that the state has violated the 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.559 ninety day rule, So any effort to enforce the ninety 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.280 day rule would occur within ninety days before the election, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.080 so it makes no sense to invoke the for cell 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.120 principle here. The only real question is did the plaintiffs 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.200 and the US government, which also participated, move quickly once 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.279 they became aware of what was going on, and the 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.080 lower courts degree that they did that there was no 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.599 delay once it became clear what the state was doing. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.919 The lawsuit was brought in terms of whether or not 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:47.920 the quiet period applies to removal and non citizens. Nothing 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.880 in it any case that it doesn't. In other words, 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.279 the law is simply there to say that there should 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.520 be no removals based on a system and no systematic removals, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.640 and it doesn't say no removal only for non residency. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.360 It just has no removals that period. So there's nothing 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.680 in the law that limits the grounds of ineligibility to 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.159 something or other, such as to moving, and it does 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.040 permit removals for death. So it's not quite clear what 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.400 this law would be doing if it doesn't also apply 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.680 to removals on a theory that the individual is not 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:20.240 a citizen. 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.480 So, as you mentioned, we don't know why the justices 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:28.279 voted as they did, but the three liberal justices made 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:32.520 their public dissent clear. What does it tell you that 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.800 this was down ideological lines. 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.400 It's very troubling. It's very troubling. The lower court decision 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.160 was well reasoned. The Court of Appeals agreed with it, 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.400 and there is irreparable injury to those voters who might 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.400 be eligible to vote, who have been denied the right 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.279 to vote. Now, some of them will be able to 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.360 re establish their eligibility because they can re register in 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.440 the coming day. So it's possible some of them will 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.680 be back in, but you know, it takes time, it 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.279 takes efforts. Quite possible some of them will not. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.440 Although Virginia is not a battleground state. This was based 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.040 on an order by the Republican governor and was backed 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.479 at the Supreme Court by the country's twenty six other 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:14.159 Republican state attorneys general, the Republican National Committee, and several 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:19.560 conservative groups. And it revolves around a flashpoint in Donald 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.720 Trump's campaign, yes, which is that you know, there's widespread 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.640 voting by non citizens. 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.640 Right, And for years he's been making that argument, even 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.520 when he won in twenty sixteen, although he lost the 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:33.640 popular vote, he says, well, I really won the popular 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.440 vote because Hillary Clinton's numbers were inflated by all the 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.560 non citizens. There is absolutely no evidence of more than 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.520 a minuscule number of non citizens voting, and you received 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.640 by mistake. It's illegal for non citizens to vote. There 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.200 are severe penalties. The number of non citizens who are 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.039 registered vote, who or actually vote is absolutely minusculine. It 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.440 is a non fact, but it's been used so heavily 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:00.360 by Republicans to try and undermine the legitimacy if there 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.240 was just no evidence that it occurs. 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.279 So do you think this lawsuit is to set the 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.400 stage or the groundwork for contesting election results? 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.280 Yes, I think anything that raises the issue of non citizens. Now. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.200 Of course Republicans won this lawsuit, so they won't be 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.320 able to make this argument in Virginia now, but you know, 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.640 it is an issue they've been raising all over the country. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.679 There was a similar student Alabama where the federal District 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.240 Court ordered the governor to stop the PERGE program in 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.720 Alabama and undo it there. I think about three thousand 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.520 people have been removed from the roles, and there was 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.040 evidence that it's often by a mistake. Again, they're using 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.560 old databases. Sometimes it's the wrong person. There may be 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.120 that the DMV numbers may indicate this person with a 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.000 certain name is a non citizen. Somebody with the same name, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.640 but a different person might be removed from the roles 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.440 because their matching is pretty basic. Basically, if you have 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.120 the same first and last name as the person at 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.360 least been identified as a non citizen, you can be removed. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.679 And that's not so uncommon. And it also again using 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.840 DMV data, since your driver's license can be good for 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.640 four years or more. In that time, you could have 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.240 naturalized from being a non citizen to a citizen, but 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.880 that naturalized person will be removed from the roles. And 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:09.720 so I think it's very much a way of keeping 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.560 the issue alive and in front of people all the time. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.119 And indeed people will think, oh, there were sixteen hundred 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.960 non citizens voting in Virginia, but it's not clear that 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.640 any of them were non citizens. Certain names popped up 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.280 on databases, and certainly there are been individual cases in 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.720 the newspapers and people showing that they were not non citizens, 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.280 that they were citizens, some citizens from birth and some 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:29.440 naturalized citizens. 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:32.760 A lot of election experts have been saying that this 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.280 year's election won't be a repeat of Bush vy Gore, 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.880 the Supreme Court is unlikely to play a pivotal role. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.160 But does this decision indicate differently that the Justices may 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:44.880 get involved. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:46.680 Yes, I don't know why you would think that the 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.880 Justices will be uninvolved. It will turn on what the 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.240 issues are. And you know, I think Bush versus Gore 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.040 was unusual and that the issue the Supreme Court dealt 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.480 with was effect a post election issue. In other words, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.360 how to take care of a recount to ord how 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.960 do take care of the counting of ballots in Florida 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.080 where it wasn't completely clear how people had voted, and 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.600 so that was an issue that could not have come 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.160 up before the election this time. I mean, I think 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.880 they're deciding issues that could be relevant to the election beforehand, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.560 like this one. As for things after the election, there 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.480 may still be things that come up, so it's hard 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.120 to know. In some ways, you could argue that this 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.040 earlier this year on Trump's immunity in some sense plays 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:25.960 into the election, or he's getting on the ballot in 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.600 the first place. So I don't understand the argument as 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.400 to why anyone thinks that they would be more or 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.760 less engaged than in twenty or in twenty twenty, where 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:36.640 they did a bunch of things before the election, but 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:38.720 not so much after the election. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.240 Well, some people are pointing to those cases as an 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.839 indication that the Supreme Court won't get involved, saying Donald 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:51.000 Trump and his allies brought around sixty cases challenging the 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.000 election in different ways, and the Supreme Court didn't take 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.320 up any appeals right right. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.000 And including the original jurisdiction case that Texas brought against Pennsylvania, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.880 it's not count Pennsylvania's vote sexist, joined by twenty other 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.120 Republican states. They didn't hear that. No, they stayed pretty 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.440 much out of it after the election in twenty twenty. 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.839 But you know, the result in twenty twenty was pretty clear. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.680 It's hard to speculate about the Supreme Court, but this 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.880 decision is not a great sign about the courts wanting 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.800 to stay out of the election. This was an unnecessary decision. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.440 The law was pretty strongly on the side of the plaintiffs, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:24.880 the ones trying to stop the purge. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.679 I do want to point out that on Tuesday, the 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:32.480 Supreme Court did refuse to order the removal of Robert F. 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:39.160 Kennedy Junior's name from presidential election ballots in Michigan and Wisconsin. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.880 The officials there said his request came too late under 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.760 the laws of the two states where voting has already begun, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.320 and the Supreme Court didn't get involved. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.560 Yeah, I mean again, it's hard to figure out. It 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.599 could be that maybe they want to be deferring to 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.600 the states both ways. I mean, refusing to order the 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.120 removal is consistent with deferring to the state and in 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.040 this case, allowing them to go forward with the purchase 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.560 consistent with the differing of the state. Maybe that's part 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.400 of it, but I'm not even trying to tempt it 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.000 to say that there's a consistent logic. 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.120 It's hard to see it. A lot more election disputes 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.640 to be resolved in the courts before the election, and 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.040 I'm sure after the election as well. I'm glad I 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.000 have you on speed Die rich Thanks so much. That's 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.680 Professor Richard Brefault of Columbia Law School. Coming up next 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.960 on The Bloomberg Law Show. The Philadelphia District Attorney sues 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.880 Elon Musk over his one million dollar a day giveaway 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.520 to registered voters, but a judge in the battleground state 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.120 ends a hearing without ruling on the request to block it. 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.320 We'll tell you why. I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.760 Every day, every day from now and so the election. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.480 We're giving out a million dollar prize, that is, and 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.360 all you have to do is sign a petition in 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:59.240 support of a constitution. It's very straightforward. You don't even 0:11:59.240 --> 0:11:59.640 have to vote. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:00.920 You don't have to vote. 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.040 You just have to sign a petition saying you believe 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.640 in the Constitution, which if you already believe in the Constitution, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.080 you're just signing something you already believe. And you can 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:08.920 ruin a million dollars. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:09.800 That's awesome. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.960 But Elon Musk's one million dollars a day voter sweepstakes 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.160 doesn't seem to be the very straightforward proposition he's made 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.160 it out to be. In order to enter, you must 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.920 be registered to vote in one of seven swing states. 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.400 The Department of Justice has already worn Musk and his 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.719 pro Trump America pack that his sweepstakes might violate federal law, 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:40.320 and this week Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner sued Musk 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:44.880 to stop the sweepstakes, saying it violates state lottery and 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:49.480 consumer protection laws. Joining me is election law expert Douglas Spencer, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.120 a professor of law at the University of Colorado. Doug 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.160 tell us about the concerns about this sweepstakes. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.600 The concern is that Elon Musk is using this lottery 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.280 to encourage voter registration and voting, which on its face 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.120 doesn't sound bad. We want more people to be registered 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.800 and to vote. It does promote democracy, but there are 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.920 federal laws that prevent people from paying or buying votes, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.479 or paying people to register, and so there's been allegations 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.560 that this scheme that he has created is doing just that, 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:24.240 rewarding people for registering and then turning out to vote. 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.920 The da in Philadelphia is challenging this not just as 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.280 a violation of these federal laws, but there's also some 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.880 state laws about consumer protection and some other issues related 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.920 to fraud. There is some sense of seriousness about the 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.680 allegations that these federal laws are being violated with why 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.120 the Department's Justice itself has commenced an investigation. They haven't 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.800 charged him with any clime, but they see some of 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:49.920 the concerns about the way this program is being run 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:50.960 and they're investigating it. 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.720 So the DNA in Philadelphia is going on a different 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.200 kind of track. He's saying that this is a lot 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.840 and as such, it's illegal in Pennsylvania because all lotteries 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.720 have to be operated and administered by the state. So 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.599 he's trying to get around the questions about federal law. 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.840 That sounds right. There's been a concern about operating a lottery, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.360 you know, and whether it's been regulated or registered or 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.200 as you said, as operated by the state itself. And 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.680 then also, at least in the statement that I read, 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.320 says that the lottery is being used to kind of 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.640 lull or dupe Philadelphians and Pennsylvanians into giving away their 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.880 personal data in exchange for money, which could be a 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.920 violation of you know, a state false advertising or consumer 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:43.720 protection law. 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.240 I mean, it would put it into a whole different 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.520 sphere because now he would have to follow all the 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:55.600 rules for sweep stakes in Pennsylvania and the other swing states. 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.800 That's right, And what I don't know is in the 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.080 state how to define a sweet steak or a lottery. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:05.760 Because nobody's buying a ticket or giving musk any cash 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.640 in order to enter the lottery. They're entering the lottery 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.880 by signing a political petition, and so one, there could 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.080 be an argument that the active signing a petition is 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.520 different than buying a lottery ticket, which would distinguish this. 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.600 And secondly, the active signing a petition is a First 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.800 Amendment protected act that buying a lottery ticket is not. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.000 And so you'd have to see the interaction of this 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.400 regulation of lotteries to the First Amendment. But if the 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.040 state defines sweepstakes as you know, entering yourself for a 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:34.920 chance to win a large sum of money based on 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.440 chance or random draw, then this lottery is in violation 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.960 of that state laws. He has not properly registered or 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.240 operating under those state regulations. 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.000 What's also interesting is that Musk said this is a 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.200 random draw, but the Philadelphia DA says that appears false 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.120 because multiple winners are people who have shown up at 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.000 Trump rallies in Pennsylvania. 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.320 Correct. So that's an allegation that in order to prove it, 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.520 if a judge is willing to take the case, then 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.760 one element of a lawsuit is what's called discovery, and 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.240 Elon Musk would have to provide some evidence of the 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:13.520 selection mechanism to prove that the decisions were being made randomly. 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.320 He'd have to have a record of the random number 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.640 generation or a video of him pulling a ping pong 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.520 ball out. And if he's not, then he's not actually 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.440 running a lottery, in which case he's falsely advertising what 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.920 he's actually doing. But at the same time, if he's 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.560 not randomly choosing people, then what he's doing may not 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.320 be a lottery, and that could cut in favor of 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.800 Elon Musk because then he can say, I'm not actually 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.560 violating the state's prohibition because I'm just giving money away 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.160 to the people that I want to give money away to. 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.480 Elon Musk obviously ignored the letter from the Justice Department. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.240 I mean, what's the import of that letter if it 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:47.680 didn't stop the sweepstakes. 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.760 I think the letter from the Department of Justice does 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.040 two things. Once, it's to a public statement that lets 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.320 everyone in the public know that what Elon Musk is 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.920 doing may be a violation of the law, but under 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.080 the federal life of violation is punishable by a fine 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.560 up to ten thousand dollars unless you are knowingly and 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.560 willingly violating the law, in which case then you can 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.440 serve jail time up to five years. So I think 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.680 this letter from the DOJ puts the pack on notice 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.440 that you are doing something willfully and knowingly, even though 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.520 we've told you that what you're doing risks of violation, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.199 so that the potential penalties which will come after the 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.520 election in any case, could be much more serious. Trying 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.359 to get them to change. I will note that the 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.240 lottery has changed a little bit since the DJ Center 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.680 its letter. It used to expire. Eligibility used to expire 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:41.280 on midnight October twenty first, which was the deadline for 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.640 voter registration in Pennsylvania, which was a really strong signal 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:47.119 that the motivation for this lottery was to pay people 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.240 to register, not something else. That deadline has now changed 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.879 until election day, so there was some recognition that that 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.760 was a problem for them, and they have changed their 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.720 tactics a little bit so they are aware in their 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.720 reading these letters, and the question will be after the facts, 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:05.200 if there's any accountability. 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.639 I mean, they also changed it a little bit, and 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.159 that he said at one of the giveaways, one of 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.879 the early ones, that all you have to do is 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.840 now be a spokesperson for us, so sort of making 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:17.119 it into a job offer. 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.560 I guess correct. He's trying lots of different ways. A 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.920 judge will have to determine whether or not they think 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.840 that's his true intent or not. If I pay you 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.919 to register to vote, but I also say that you 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.200 have to walk outside and breathe fresh air and then 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.679 you get the money, a judge will say, I know 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.240 you told me that you're paying these people for breathing 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.399 fresh air, but they also have to register. I just 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.760 think that's a scam. So the question is for somebody 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.119 signing a petition that doesn't ask for anything, just says 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.639 I think the First and Second Amendment are important. Is 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.160 that something that's a legitimate petition, or do we think 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.440 that the Musk has been using it as a way 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.920 to insulate himself from just out and out buying people 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.679 to register to vote. To make look somewhat differently, and 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.760 that will be a fact determination by a judge if 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.360 it gets to this litigation. They can look at emails 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.760 between Musk and his pack and other communications. They can 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.720 make determinations based on public statements where America Pack says 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:16.800 we want to get a million people registered to vote 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.600 in the Swing States, and they'll make a determination whether 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.280 or not that was the intent of this lottery, even 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.879 though there are facts that cut in different directions. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.639 A lot of people are going to say this is 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:33.480 a move by a Democratic da against Musk who's spending 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.160 millions to get Trump elected. 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.359 I will say I think the political side of this 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.159 is as important as the legal side. So the Department 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:46.040 of Justice sending this letter does send a signal for voters, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.560 whether or not there's an actual violation, that what they're 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.000 doing is a close violation of the law. And it 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.960 could be the same for a district attorney who wants 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.280 to make sure that this issue is framed in the 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.600 press and in the political sphere as a legal mumbo 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.760 jumbo as opposed to a really exciting money giveaway. So 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.800 there's a political aspect where bringing these charges changes the 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.760 news coverage, changes the dynamics, and that may be just 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.080 as important as any finding of guilt or innocence. And 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.480 so that's not something that the lawyers like me can 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.720 really comment on whether that's the right way to go 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.639 about it. But there's definitely a political angle to this. 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.560 Do you remember anything else like this in our history, 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.439 any kind of giveaways like this. 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.680 Not in our modern history. Way back in the seventeen 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.600 and eighteen hundreds, So this was before the ballot was secrets. 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.440 You'd have parties who would basically give away free booze 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:41.879 to people. You'd vote for their party, you'd get whiskey, 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.040