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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court stepped into the twenty twenty four election

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Speaker 1: this week, allowing Virginia to carry out a purge of

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Speaker 1: residents from its voter rolls on the eve of the

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Speaker 1: election without any explanation. The Court's conservative justices overrode the

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Speaker 1: decision of a federal court and a unanimous appeals court,

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Speaker 1: which had found that the state's purge of about sixteen

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Speaker 1: hundred voters violated federal law. The National Voter Registration Act

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Speaker 1: prohibits systematic removals of voters in the ninety days before

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Speaker 1: an election. Republican Virginia Governor Glenn Younkin defended his order

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Speaker 1: for the purge, which was issued on August seventh, the

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Speaker 1: ninetieth day before the November fifth election here on CNN.

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Speaker 2: Because it is done on an individualized basis by person,

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Speaker 2: and because that person has in fact self identified as

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Speaker 2: a non citizen, this is not subject to the ninety

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Speaker 2: day blackout period in my view.

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Speaker 1: The three liberal justices dissented, joining me is Elections law

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Speaker 1: expert Richard brough Fault, a professor at Columbia Law School.

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Speaker 1: Were you surprised that the Supreme Court intervened to reverse

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Speaker 1: the Fourth Circuit and the District Court.

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Speaker 3: Judge, Yes, maybe I shouldn't have been, but yes I was.

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Speaker 3: So the case involves a state effort to purge people

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Speaker 3: from the roles on the claim that they're non citizens.

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Speaker 3: Non citizens are not entitled to vote. It's illegal, and

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Speaker 3: states are allowed to remove any non citizens that are

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Speaker 3: on the ballot. But there is a provision in federal

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Speaker 3: law National Voter Registration Act, that prohibits mass purchase so

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Speaker 3: called systematic purchase within ninety days before the election, because

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Speaker 3: it makes it two difficult. People may be purged by mistake,

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Speaker 3: and if it's a mass purge, it's actually difficult for

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Speaker 3: people to be aware of that and to respond. And

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Speaker 3: so that is illegal. But Virginia a conscious they adopted

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Speaker 3: such a program. The governor you shouldn't executive words to

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Speaker 3: that effect literally on the day that this so called

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Speaker 3: quiet or non virtually was supposed to begin, and basically

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Speaker 3: used some mix of DMV data and other databases to

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Speaker 3: conclude that people were not citizens DMV. When you get

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Speaker 3: a driver's license, you may be asked whether or not

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Speaker 3: you were a citizens. Some people checked non citizen by mistake,

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Speaker 3: some people check not aisms because they are not a

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Speaker 3: citizen when they get their driver's license, but some years

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Speaker 3: later become naturalized as citizens. So the state, using that

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Speaker 3: data and other data, went ahead and concluded that something

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Speaker 3: like sixteen hundred people were not citizens and needed to

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Speaker 3: be purged from the roles. And that was challenged on

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Speaker 3: the theory that violated the federal law. And also there

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Speaker 3: was evidence a number of these people who were bridge

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Speaker 3: were in fact citizens and were challenging th as individuals.

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Speaker 1: So that challenge went up the chain, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: to the federal district court and the appellate court tell

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Speaker 1: us what happened there.

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Speaker 3: The Federal District Court in Virginia concluded that this was

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Speaker 3: a pretty straightforward violation the federal law, that it was

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Speaker 3: going on in this so called quiet period, that it

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Speaker 3: was a systematic removal effort, not based on individualized information

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Speaker 3: about individual voters, but basically a massive database information that

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Speaker 3: they were loading from one database to another. And the

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Speaker 3: Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed rather refused to overturn

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Speaker 3: the District Court's injunction. The Court of Appeals basically said

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Speaker 3: yes on the fact, it appears to us that this

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Speaker 3: is a violation of federal law and it should be stopped.

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Speaker 3: The Supreme Court rather quickly by well, I'm coming to

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Speaker 3: say six three, but you know that three liberal justices

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Speaker 3: dissented because it was just an order. It's not clear

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Speaker 3: that all six of the others agreed, but looks like

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Speaker 3: by pretty much a party line vote without an opinion,

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Speaker 3: basically reversed a fourth circuit and allowed this purge to

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Speaker 3: go forth. The purchase actually stopped, but the sixteen hundred

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Speaker 3: voters who were removed remain removed unless they can as

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Speaker 3: individuals go in and Virginia allows same day registration, go

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Speaker 3: in and prove that they are citizens and re register

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Speaker 3: and then vote.

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Speaker 1: Virginia made several arguments, and one was that the quiet

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Speaker 1: period doesn't apply to non citizens. Another was that courts

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Speaker 1: shouldn't get involved because of what's known as the personal

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Speaker 1: principle right, so taking.

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Speaker 3: Them in reverse order. The problem with the per cl

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Speaker 3: principle in this case is, I mean, the only basis

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Speaker 3: for judicial intervention is that the state has violated the

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Speaker 3: ninety day rule, So any effort to enforce the ninety

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Speaker 3: day rule would occur within ninety days before the election,

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Speaker 3: so it makes no sense to invoke the for cell

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Speaker 3: principle here. The only real question is did the plaintiffs

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Speaker 3: and the US government, which also participated, move quickly once

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Speaker 3: they became aware of what was going on, and the

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Speaker 3: lower courts degree that they did that there was no

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Speaker 3: delay once it became clear what the state was doing.

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Speaker 3: The lawsuit was brought in terms of whether or not

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Speaker 3: the quiet period applies to removal and non citizens. Nothing

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Speaker 3: in it any case that it doesn't. In other words,

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Speaker 3: the law is simply there to say that there should

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Speaker 3: be no removals based on a system and no systematic removals,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't say no removal only for non residency.

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Speaker 3: It just has no removals that period. So there's nothing

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Speaker 3: in the law that limits the grounds of ineligibility to

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Speaker 3: something or other, such as to moving, and it does

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Speaker 3: permit removals for death. So it's not quite clear what

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Speaker 3: this law would be doing if it doesn't also apply

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Speaker 3: to removals on a theory that the individual is not

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Speaker 3: a citizen.

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Speaker 1: So, as you mentioned, we don't know why the justices

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Speaker 1: voted as they did, but the three liberal justices made

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Speaker 1: their public dissent clear. What does it tell you that

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Speaker 1: this was down ideological lines.

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Speaker 3: It's very troubling. It's very troubling. The lower court decision

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Speaker 3: was well reasoned. The Court of Appeals agreed with it,

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Speaker 3: and there is irreparable injury to those voters who might

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Speaker 3: be eligible to vote, who have been denied the right

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Speaker 3: to vote. Now, some of them will be able to

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Speaker 3: re establish their eligibility because they can re register in

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Speaker 3: the coming day. So it's possible some of them will

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Speaker 3: be back in, but you know, it takes time, it

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Speaker 3: takes efforts. Quite possible some of them will not.

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Speaker 1: Although Virginia is not a battleground state. This was based

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Speaker 1: on an order by the Republican governor and was backed

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Speaker 1: at the Supreme Court by the country's twenty six other

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Speaker 1: Republican state attorneys general, the Republican National Committee, and several

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Speaker 1: conservative groups. And it revolves around a flashpoint in Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's campaign, yes, which is that you know, there's widespread

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Speaker 1: voting by non citizens.

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Speaker 3: Right, And for years he's been making that argument, even

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Speaker 3: when he won in twenty sixteen, although he lost the

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Speaker 3: popular vote, he says, well, I really won the popular

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Speaker 3: vote because Hillary Clinton's numbers were inflated by all the

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Speaker 3: non citizens. There is absolutely no evidence of more than

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Speaker 3: a minuscule number of non citizens voting, and you received

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Speaker 3: by mistake. It's illegal for non citizens to vote. There

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Speaker 3: are severe penalties. The number of non citizens who are

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Speaker 3: registered vote, who or actually vote is absolutely minusculine. It

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Speaker 3: is a non fact, but it's been used so heavily

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Speaker 3: by Republicans to try and undermine the legitimacy if there

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Speaker 3: was just no evidence that it occurs.

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Speaker 1: So do you think this lawsuit is to set the

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Speaker 1: stage or the groundwork for contesting election results?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think anything that raises the issue of non citizens. Now.

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Speaker 3: Of course Republicans won this lawsuit, so they won't be

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Speaker 3: able to make this argument in Virginia now, but you know,

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Speaker 3: it is an issue they've been raising all over the country.

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Speaker 3: There was a similar student Alabama where the federal District

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Speaker 3: Court ordered the governor to stop the PERGE program in

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Speaker 3: Alabama and undo it there. I think about three thousand

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Speaker 3: people have been removed from the roles, and there was

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Speaker 3: evidence that it's often by a mistake. Again, they're using

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Speaker 3: old databases. Sometimes it's the wrong person. There may be

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Speaker 3: that the DMV numbers may indicate this person with a

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Speaker 3: certain name is a non citizen. Somebody with the same name,

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Speaker 3: but a different person might be removed from the roles

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Speaker 3: because their matching is pretty basic. Basically, if you have

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Speaker 3: the same first and last name as the person at

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Speaker 3: least been identified as a non citizen, you can be removed.

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Speaker 3: And that's not so uncommon. And it also again using

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Speaker 3: DMV data, since your driver's license can be good for

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Speaker 3: four years or more. In that time, you could have

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Speaker 3: naturalized from being a non citizen to a citizen, but

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Speaker 3: that naturalized person will be removed from the roles. And

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Speaker 3: so I think it's very much a way of keeping

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Speaker 3: the issue alive and in front of people all the time.

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Speaker 3: And indeed people will think, oh, there were sixteen hundred

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Speaker 3: non citizens voting in Virginia, but it's not clear that

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Speaker 3: any of them were non citizens. Certain names popped up

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Speaker 3: on databases, and certainly there are been individual cases in

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Speaker 3: the newspapers and people showing that they were not non citizens,

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Speaker 3: that they were citizens, some citizens from birth and some

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Speaker 3: naturalized citizens.

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Speaker 1: A lot of election experts have been saying that this

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Speaker 1: year's election won't be a repeat of Bush vy Gore,

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is unlikely to play a pivotal role.

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Speaker 1: But does this decision indicate differently that the Justices may

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Speaker 1: get involved.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I don't know why you would think that the

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Speaker 3: Justices will be uninvolved. It will turn on what the

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Speaker 3: issues are. And you know, I think Bush versus Gore

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Speaker 3: was unusual and that the issue the Supreme Court dealt

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Speaker 3: with was effect a post election issue. In other words,

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Speaker 3: how to take care of a recount to ord how

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Speaker 3: do take care of the counting of ballots in Florida

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Speaker 3: where it wasn't completely clear how people had voted, and

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Speaker 3: so that was an issue that could not have come

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Speaker 3: up before the election this time. I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: they're deciding issues that could be relevant to the election beforehand,

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Speaker 3: like this one. As for things after the election, there

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Speaker 3: may still be things that come up, so it's hard

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Speaker 3: to know. In some ways, you could argue that this

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Speaker 3: earlier this year on Trump's immunity in some sense plays

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Speaker 3: into the election, or he's getting on the ballot in

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Speaker 3: the first place. So I don't understand the argument as

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Speaker 3: to why anyone thinks that they would be more or

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Speaker 3: less engaged than in twenty or in twenty twenty, where

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Speaker 3: they did a bunch of things before the election, but

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Speaker 3: not so much after the election.

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Speaker 1: Well, some people are pointing to those cases as an

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Speaker 1: indication that the Supreme Court won't get involved, saying Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and his allies brought around sixty cases challenging the

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Speaker 1: election in different ways, and the Supreme Court didn't take

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Speaker 1: up any appeals right right.

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Speaker 3: And including the original jurisdiction case that Texas brought against Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 3: it's not count Pennsylvania's vote sexist, joined by twenty other

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Speaker 3: Republican states. They didn't hear that. No, they stayed pretty

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Speaker 3: much out of it after the election in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: But you know, the result in twenty twenty was pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to speculate about the Supreme Court, but this

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Speaker 3: decision is not a great sign about the courts wanting

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Speaker 3: to stay out of the election. This was an unnecessary decision.

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Speaker 3: The law was pretty strongly on the side of the plaintiffs,

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Speaker 3: the ones trying to stop the purge.

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Speaker 1: I do want to point out that on Tuesday, the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court did refuse to order the removal of Robert F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior's name from presidential election ballots in Michigan and Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: The officials there said his request came too late under

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Speaker 1: the laws of the two states where voting has already begun,

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Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court didn't get involved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean again, it's hard to figure out. It

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Speaker 3: could be that maybe they want to be deferring to

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Speaker 3: the states both ways. I mean, refusing to order the

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Speaker 3: removal is consistent with deferring to the state and in

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Speaker 3: this case, allowing them to go forward with the purchase

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Speaker 3: consistent with the differing of the state. Maybe that's part

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Speaker 3: of it, but I'm not even trying to tempt it

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Speaker 3: to say that there's a consistent logic.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to see it. A lot more election disputes

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Speaker 1: to be resolved in the courts before the election, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure after the election as well. I'm glad I

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Speaker 1: have you on speed Die rich Thanks so much. That's

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Speaker 1: Professor Richard Brefault of Columbia Law School. Coming up next

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Speaker 1: on The Bloomberg Law Show. The Philadelphia District Attorney sues

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk over his one million dollar a day giveaway

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Speaker 1: to registered voters, but a judge in the battleground state

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Speaker 1: ends a hearing without ruling on the request to block it.

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you why. I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 4: Every day, every day from now and so the election.

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Speaker 4: We're giving out a million dollar prize, that is, and

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Speaker 4: all you have to do is sign a petition in

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Speaker 4: support of a constitution. It's very straightforward. You don't even

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Speaker 4: have to vote.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to vote.

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Speaker 4: You just have to sign a petition saying you believe

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Speaker 4: in the Constitution, which if you already believe in the Constitution,

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Speaker 4: you're just signing something you already believe. And you can

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Speaker 4: ruin a million dollars.

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Speaker 5: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: But Elon Musk's one million dollars a day voter sweepstakes

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be the very straightforward proposition he's made

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Speaker 1: it out to be. In order to enter, you must

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Speaker 1: be registered to vote in one of seven swing states.

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Speaker 1: The Department of Justice has already worn Musk and his

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Speaker 1: pro Trump America pack that his sweepstakes might violate federal law,

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Speaker 1: and this week Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner sued Musk

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Speaker 1: to stop the sweepstakes, saying it violates state lottery and

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Speaker 1: consumer protection laws. Joining me is election law expert Douglas Spencer,

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Speaker 1: a professor of law at the University of Colorado. Doug

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Speaker 1: tell us about the concerns about this sweepstakes.

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Speaker 6: The concern is that Elon Musk is using this lottery

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Speaker 6: to encourage voter registration and voting, which on its face

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Speaker 6: doesn't sound bad. We want more people to be registered

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Speaker 6: and to vote. It does promote democracy, but there are

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Speaker 6: federal laws that prevent people from paying or buying votes,

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Speaker 6: or paying people to register, and so there's been allegations

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Speaker 6: that this scheme that he has created is doing just that,

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Speaker 6: rewarding people for registering and then turning out to vote.

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Speaker 6: The da in Philadelphia is challenging this not just as

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Speaker 6: a violation of these federal laws, but there's also some

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Speaker 6: state laws about consumer protection and some other issues related

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Speaker 6: to fraud. There is some sense of seriousness about the

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Speaker 6: allegations that these federal laws are being violated with why

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Speaker 6: the Department's Justice itself has commenced an investigation. They haven't

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Speaker 6: charged him with any clime, but they see some of

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Speaker 6: the concerns about the way this program is being run

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Speaker 6: and they're investigating it.

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Speaker 1: So the DNA in Philadelphia is going on a different

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Speaker 1: kind of track. He's saying that this is a lot

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Speaker 1: and as such, it's illegal in Pennsylvania because all lotteries

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Speaker 1: have to be operated and administered by the state. So

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Speaker 1: he's trying to get around the questions about federal law.

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Speaker 6: That sounds right. There's been a concern about operating a lottery,

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Speaker 6: you know, and whether it's been regulated or registered or

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Speaker 6: as you said, as operated by the state itself. And

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Speaker 6: then also, at least in the statement that I read,

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Speaker 6: says that the lottery is being used to kind of

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Speaker 6: lull or dupe Philadelphians and Pennsylvanians into giving away their

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Speaker 6: personal data in exchange for money, which could be a

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Speaker 6: violation of you know, a state false advertising or consumer

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Speaker 6: protection law.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it would put it into a whole different

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Speaker 1: sphere because now he would have to follow all the

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Speaker 1: rules for sweep stakes in Pennsylvania and the other swing states.

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Speaker 6: That's right, And what I don't know is in the

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Speaker 6: state how to define a sweet steak or a lottery.

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Speaker 6: Because nobody's buying a ticket or giving musk any cash

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Speaker 6: in order to enter the lottery. They're entering the lottery

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Speaker 6: by signing a political petition, and so one, there could

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Speaker 6: be an argument that the active signing a petition is

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Speaker 6: different than buying a lottery ticket, which would distinguish this.

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Speaker 6: And secondly, the active signing a petition is a First

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Speaker 6: Amendment protected act that buying a lottery ticket is not.

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Speaker 6: And so you'd have to see the interaction of this

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Speaker 6: regulation of lotteries to the First Amendment. But if the

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Speaker 6: state defines sweepstakes as you know, entering yourself for a

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Speaker 6: chance to win a large sum of money based on

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Speaker 6: chance or random draw, then this lottery is in violation

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Speaker 6: of that state laws. He has not properly registered or

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Speaker 6: operating under those state regulations.

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Speaker 1: What's also interesting is that Musk said this is a

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Speaker 1: random draw, but the Philadelphia DA says that appears false

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Speaker 1: because multiple winners are people who have shown up at

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Speaker 1: Trump rallies in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 6: Correct. So that's an allegation that in order to prove it,

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Speaker 6: if a judge is willing to take the case, then

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Speaker 6: one element of a lawsuit is what's called discovery, and

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Speaker 6: Elon Musk would have to provide some evidence of the

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Speaker 6: selection mechanism to prove that the decisions were being made randomly.

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Speaker 6: He'd have to have a record of the random number

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Speaker 6: generation or a video of him pulling a ping pong

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Speaker 6: ball out. And if he's not, then he's not actually

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Speaker 6: running a lottery, in which case he's falsely advertising what

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Speaker 6: he's actually doing. But at the same time, if he's

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Speaker 6: not randomly choosing people, then what he's doing may not

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Speaker 6: be a lottery, and that could cut in favor of

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Speaker 6: Elon Musk because then he can say, I'm not actually

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Speaker 6: violating the state's prohibition because I'm just giving money away

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Speaker 6: to the people that I want to give money away to.

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk obviously ignored the letter from the Justice Department.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's the import of that letter if it

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Speaker 1: didn't stop the sweepstakes.

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Speaker 6: I think the letter from the Department of Justice does

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Speaker 6: two things. Once, it's to a public statement that lets

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Speaker 6: everyone in the public know that what Elon Musk is

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Speaker 6: doing may be a violation of the law, but under

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Speaker 6: the federal life of violation is punishable by a fine

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Speaker 6: up to ten thousand dollars unless you are knowingly and

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Speaker 6: willingly violating the law, in which case then you can

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Speaker 6: serve jail time up to five years. So I think

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Speaker 6: this letter from the DOJ puts the pack on notice

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Speaker 6: that you are doing something willfully and knowingly, even though

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Speaker 6: we've told you that what you're doing risks of violation,

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Speaker 6: so that the potential penalties which will come after the

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Speaker 6: election in any case, could be much more serious. Trying

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Speaker 6: to get them to change. I will note that the

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Speaker 6: lottery has changed a little bit since the DJ Center

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Speaker 6: its letter. It used to expire. Eligibility used to expire

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Speaker 6: on midnight October twenty first, which was the deadline for

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Speaker 6: voter registration in Pennsylvania, which was a really strong signal

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Speaker 6: that the motivation for this lottery was to pay people

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Speaker 6: to register, not something else. That deadline has now changed

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Speaker 6: until election day, so there was some recognition that that

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Speaker 6: was a problem for them, and they have changed their

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Speaker 6: tactics a little bit so they are aware in their

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Speaker 6: reading these letters, and the question will be after the facts,

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Speaker 6: if there's any accountability.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they also changed it a little bit, and

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Speaker 1: that he said at one of the giveaways, one of

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Speaker 1: the early ones, that all you have to do is

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Speaker 1: now be a spokesperson for us, so sort of making

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Speaker 1: it into a job offer.

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Speaker 6: I guess correct. He's trying lots of different ways. A

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Speaker 6: judge will have to determine whether or not they think

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Speaker 6: that's his true intent or not. If I pay you

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Speaker 6: to register to vote, but I also say that you

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Speaker 6: have to walk outside and breathe fresh air and then

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Speaker 6: you get the money, a judge will say, I know

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Speaker 6: you told me that you're paying these people for breathing

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Speaker 6: fresh air, but they also have to register. I just

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Speaker 6: think that's a scam. So the question is for somebody

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Speaker 6: signing a petition that doesn't ask for anything, just says

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Speaker 6: I think the First and Second Amendment are important. Is

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Speaker 6: that something that's a legitimate petition, or do we think

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Speaker 6: that the Musk has been using it as a way

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Speaker 6: to insulate himself from just out and out buying people

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Speaker 6: to register to vote. To make look somewhat differently, and

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Speaker 6: that will be a fact determination by a judge if

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Speaker 6: it gets to this litigation. They can look at emails

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Speaker 6: between Musk and his pack and other communications. They can

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Speaker 6: make determinations based on public statements where America Pack says

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Speaker 6: we want to get a million people registered to vote

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Speaker 6: in the Swing States, and they'll make a determination whether

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Speaker 6: or not that was the intent of this lottery, even

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Speaker 6: though there are facts that cut in different directions.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people are going to say this is

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Speaker 1: a move by a Democratic da against Musk who's spending

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Speaker 1: millions to get Trump elected.

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Speaker 6: I will say I think the political side of this

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Speaker 6: is as important as the legal side. So the Department

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Speaker 6: of Justice sending this letter does send a signal for voters,

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Speaker 6: whether or not there's an actual violation, that what they're

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Speaker 6: doing is a close violation of the law. And it

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Speaker 6: could be the same for a district attorney who wants

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Speaker 6: to make sure that this issue is framed in the

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Speaker 6: press and in the political sphere as a legal mumbo

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Speaker 6: jumbo as opposed to a really exciting money giveaway. So

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Speaker 6: there's a political aspect where bringing these charges changes the

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Speaker 6: news coverage, changes the dynamics, and that may be just

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Speaker 6: as important as any finding of guilt or innocence. And

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Speaker 6: so that's not something that the lawyers like me can

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Speaker 6: really comment on whether that's the right way to go

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Speaker 6: about it. But there's definitely a political angle to this.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember anything else like this in our history,

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Speaker 1: any kind of giveaways like this.

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Speaker 6: Not in our modern history. Way back in the seventeen

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Speaker 6: and eighteen hundreds, So this was before the ballot was secrets.

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Speaker 6: You'd have parties who would basically give away free booze

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Speaker 6: to people. You'd vote for their party, you'd get whiskey,

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Speaker 6: and it's very well known, and in part to avoid

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Speaker 6: that kind of bribery, we adopted the secret ballot and

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Speaker 6: since then nothing so open with payments. The parties, of course,

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Speaker 6: are always trying to incentivize and motivate people to get

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Speaker 6: out to vote. No lottery like this, specifically from a

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Speaker 6: wealthy buildaire either.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining me, Doug. That's Douglas Spencer,

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Speaker 1: a professor of law at the University of Colorado. In

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Speaker 1: just a few days, the case has bounced between state

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Speaker 1: and federal court and back again. On Thursday, there was

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Speaker 1: a hearing before a state court judge over Musk's motion

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Speaker 1: to move the case to federal court. Bloomberg Legal reporter

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Speaker 1: Chris Dolmesh was at the hearing, So Chris, the state

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Speaker 1: judge did send the case over to federal court for

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Speaker 1: a determination. Was there any discussion about the merits of

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Speaker 1: the DA's lawsuit at the hearing?

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Speaker 7: Not specifically, Essentially, the DA's lawyer kind of launched into

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Speaker 7: a bit of a soliloquy at some point on why

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Speaker 7: you know this shouldn't be removed to federal court. But

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Speaker 7: the judge clearly from the beginning was not going to

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Speaker 7: discuss the merits, just given it's kind of an automatic

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Speaker 7: move when they removed the federal court to at least

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Speaker 7: have the federal judge determined as a threshold matter whether

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Speaker 7: it's a matter of federal law.

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Speaker 1: So explain what their grounds are for removing this to

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Speaker 1: federal court.

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Speaker 7: They're saying it's essentially a quintessential matter of election law,

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Speaker 7: even though the DA's claims are essentially state law claims

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Speaker 7: under the Pennsylvania's lottery laws and consumer protection laws. So

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Speaker 7: they say, look, this is an election dispute, it should

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Speaker 7: be heard in federal court. They classify it as you know,

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Speaker 7: he's trying to stage a show ahead of the election

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Speaker 7: because he disagrees with Musk and trying to suppress his

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Speaker 7: First Amendment rights.

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Speaker 1: And what's the response of the Philadelphia DA.

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Speaker 7: Now, the DA says it's a state law case. He

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Speaker 7: argued that while it touches on elements of federal election law,

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Speaker 7: he argues that there are plenty of disputes that are

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Speaker 7: related to the election that are heard in state court.

440
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: And Chris, we have seen this removal to federal court

441
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: gambit before.

442
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 7: Yes, in many cases, it's a typical move. That's one

443
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 7: of the reasons a lot of times when you see

444
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 7: civil litigation between state corporations, a lot of the time

445
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 7: they have an automatic law that determines where the case

446
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 7: will be heard if there is a dispute, you know,

447
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 7: that kind of eliminates that problem from the beginning.

448
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 1: This is a really serious issue, but from reading about

449
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: it, it seemed to me like the hearing was pretty lighthearted.

450
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, there are a lot of laughs. It was when

451
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 7: the DA noted that Elon wasn't there and looked around

452
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 7: the room. His lawyer said, he can't just show up

453
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 7: anywhere on you know, a moment's notice. And then the

454
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 7: DA got up and said, well, as to that notion,

455
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 7: he owned SpaceX. And then the judge kind of shot

456
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 7: that down real quick. He's like, he can't land a

457
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 7: rocket on top of the building. Let's be serious, And

458
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 7: that got some laughs.

459
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 3: You know.

460
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 7: The judge was clearly in a kind of jovial mood,

461
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 7: and one assumes because he knew he wasn't gonna have

462
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 7: to do anything with it that day.

463
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: But now the ball is back in his court since

464
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: the federal judge ruled that there was no issue of

465
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: federal law involved in the case. Well see what happens next.

466
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,719
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Chris. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Chris don Mesh.

467
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: In other election news related to Pennsylvania, on Friday, the

468
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: court refused to intervene in a clash over provisional ballots

469
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: in the state, rejecting a Republican emergency appeal. This leaves

470
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 1: in place a state Supreme Court ruling that elections officials

471
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: must count provisional ballots cast by voters whose mail in

472
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: ballots were rejected. Coming up, Sam Bankman Fried's former lieutenant

473
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: is the first to avoid prison in the FTX case.

474
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg.

475
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 7: I call it the wheel. I don't think so.

476
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: What does it do the rules? Yeah, so does a bagel?

477
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 7: Okay, a bengel.

478
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 6: You can eat.

479
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 3: One of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

480
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 2: Like I was saying, it's FTX, it's a safe and

481
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 2: easy way to get into crypto.

482
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 7: I don't think so.

483
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 4: And I'm never wrong about this stuff.

484
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: Never remember back when FTX was the world's most popular

485
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency exchange with select britty endorsements and a Super Bowl ad.

486
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: Of course, that was before a gaping hole in customer

487
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: deposits was exposed and FTX collapsed into bankruptcy. Federal indictments

488
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: followed a founder, Sam Bankman Freed, and his top executives,

489
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: and it didn't take long for three of those executives

490
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: to turn on Bankman Freed, accepting plea deals in return

491
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: for cooperating with prosecutors and testifying against him. Bankman Freed

492
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: is serving twenty five years in prison after a jury

493
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: found him guilty of the multi billion dollar fraud late

494
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: last year, and now the three cooperators are learning what

495
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: the consequences will be for them. In September, the prosecution's

496
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: star witness, Caroline Ellison, a top executive and Bankman Freed's

497
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: on again, off again girlfriend, was sentenced to two years

498
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: in prison. In October, Ryan Slome, one of Bankman Freed's

499
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: top lieutenants FTX, who did not testify against him, was

500
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: sentenced to seven and a half years in prison. But

501
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, former FTX chief engineer Nashad Singh walked out

502
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: of Judge Lewis Kaplan's courtroom a free man. Why a

503
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: get out of jail free card for Singh when Judge

504
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: Caplan sentenced the others to prison time. Here to explain

505
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Legal reporter Eva Benny Morrison, who covered bankman

506
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: Fried's trial as well as singh sentencing. Ava tell us

507
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: a little about Singh.

508
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 5: Nishad Singh was one of three top executives at FTX

509
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 5: who turned on Sam Banks and Freed and signed up

510
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 5: his corporating witnesses to the government. They all testified at

511
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 5: Stateman Fred's broad trial and eventually helped land his conviction

512
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 5: to statement. Freed's currently serving twenty five years in jail,

513
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 5: and after his sentenced, it was time for the corporators

514
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 5: to face their own punishment for their role in the

515
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 5: collapse and the years on board at FTX. Mad Scene

516
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 5: turned up in court and we heard some pretty compelling

517
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 5: arguments from his attorney about why he should avoid spending

518
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 5: a day in prison. Only a couple of months ago,

519
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 5: Caroline Ellison, the foremost CEO of Alimenta Research, was sentenced

520
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 5: to two years in jail. This is unusual. Most cooperators

521
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 5: end up avoiding any jail time whatsoever. But fortunately for

522
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 5: Nishad Singh, that was what happened. Judge Lewis Caplan found

523
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 5: that he deserved more corporation credit than Caroline Ellison and

524
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 5: he was essentially less culpable than the flord at FTX

525
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 5: than Ellison.

526
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: Singh's lawyers apparently succeeded in setting him apart from Ellison

527
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: and Gary Wang, who's yet to be sentenced. Was a

528
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: factor also that Singh was involved in the front for

529
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: a shorter period of time.

530
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 5: Judge Chaplin certainly seemed to focus on the amount of

531
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 5: time Mischad sing knew about the fraud, so Nishad, who

532
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 5: was the chief engineer at FTX, only found out of

533
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 5: twenty twenty two that STX had been sending customer funds

534
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 5: billions of dollars worth for customer funds to Alimtor Research.

535
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 5: In contrast, Caroline Allison knew about this for years and

536
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 5: was an accomplice to Sam bankman Bridge and Caplan found

537
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 5: that this certainly helped Mishad Thing's case, the fact that

538
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 5: he only knew about it for a couple of months

539
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 5: before STX collapsed. You know the poe. The prosecution and

540
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 5: the defense did admit even when Mishad things found out

541
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 5: about this massive board and that STX couldn't afford to

542
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: cover the whole and customer deposits, he continued to allow

543
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 5: campaign donations to be made in his name and forged

544
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 5: ahead with a purchase of a beautiful house in Washington State,

545
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 5: something that his lawyer said he will forever be ashamed.

546
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: Of three point seven million dollar house.

547
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 5: Yes, that's right. It was worth three point seven million

548
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 5: dollars and he bought it with his friends. Was a

549
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 5: place to go and when he could relax and go

550
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 5: on holidays. This was kind of the only luxury, maybe

551
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 5: indulge in purchase that Mishad Seine had made when he

552
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 5: was FTX. His lawyers, you know, really stressed that he

553
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 5: was a true believer in effect of altruism, his philosophy

554
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 5: that drew a lot of the STX and alimed to

555
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 5: research folks together this idea that you could earn a

556
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 5: lot of money and give most of your way to

557
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 5: make the world better place. Miss shadd was very interested

558
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 5: in charity. You know, he's been involved in giving away

559
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 5: a lot of concernings since he was in college and

560
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 5: his lawyers really tried to push that point that this was,

561
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, a big purchase, but it didn't look

562
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 5: like his philosophies.

563
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: And he's been working all this time, unlike Caroline Ellison.

564
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 5: In Caroline Ellison's case, her lawyers had said that she

565
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 5: was really struggling to find an employment after the STS collapse,

566
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 5: mainly because of the reputational damage that came and being

567
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 5: associated with STX and elem to research. She had been

568
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 5: working on writing a non fiction book and a math

569
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 5: book that Mishad Seine had been lucky enough to find

570
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 5: a job. He's been working as a software engineer for

571
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 5: a firm in California since FPX collapsed, and he's also

572
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 5: been volunteering at a homeless shelter not far from his

573
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 5: house in the Bay Area, and at night he's working

574
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 5: on code for a affordable housing project. So this certainly

575
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 5: went towards his argument for someone that is trying to

576
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 5: build his life back up again and certainly doesn't have

577
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 5: any interest in getting involved in a multi billion dollar

578
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 5: thought again.

579
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: Sing addressed the judge before he was sentenced, saying, quote,

580
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: I strayed so far from my values and words can

581
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: express how sorry I am how did he come across.

582
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 5: Something that struck me about Michadd in court was that

583
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 5: he remained very calm and very composed the entire time.

584
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 5: When he got up to speak to Judge Kaplan, we

585
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 5: approached the lectern with a piece of paper with his

586
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 5: written words on it in his hand and said how

587
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 5: remorseful he was and how gutted he was about the

588
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 5: harm that he caused to so many innocent people. He

589
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 5: spoke about wanting to prove to not only the judge

590
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 5: but others that he was on the path to redemption,

591
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 5: and he wanted to do good and be a forced

592
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 5: good in the world since being part of the calamity

593
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 5: at Aps.

594
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: And what was the reaction when he learned that he

595
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: wasn't going to have to go to prison.

596
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 5: I think the big question mark was whether Judge Caplan

597
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 5: was going to send Mishad's prison or save him from that,

598
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 5: especially after the two years Tent said he handed to

599
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 5: Caroline Elepent. So when he got to the pointing end

600
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 5: of delivering his judgment, michhad was standing between his two

601
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 5: lawyers and Judge Caplan said, I order you to report

602
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 5: to the Attorney General of the United States for time served,

603
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 5: and at that point Shad seeing barely reacted. There was

604
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 5: a very saint smile that came across his face. While

605
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 5: his family, of which there were many, seated in the

606
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 5: public gallery behind him, augaf his Beyonce Claire put a

607
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 5: hand and over her mouth. His mother kissed his fiance

608
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 5: on the cheek and they held hands and you could

609
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 5: see that how emotional that they were. They were crying,

610
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 5: but you could just sense the kind of utter relief

611
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 5: that was borught across support room.

612
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: What seemed a little unusual is that the judge addressed

613
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: Singh's parents and said, I don't see anything you did wrong.

614
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Tell us what led to that.

615
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 5: That's right. As part of seeing sentencing, his parents, along

616
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 5: with his brother and other friends and former colleagues that FTX,

617
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 5: submitted letters in support of him. And his parents' letters

618
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 5: were pretty heartbreaking. They spoke about raising their sons as

619
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 5: best as they could, spoke about how intelligent and talented

620
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 5: he was, and then discovering that he had been caught

621
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 5: up and explored at FTX, And there were some pretty

622
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 5: harrowing parts in there about the impact that the FTX

623
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 5: collapse had had on the Shad and how he had

624
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 5: contemplated suicide in the weeks and months after FTX. His

625
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 5: parents spoke about the impact on his mental health, and

626
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 5: Mishad's lawyerly made a point of saying, you know, every

627
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 5: time Chad flew over from California to New York to

628
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 5: meet with us at our offices, his father was there

629
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 5: in the conference room sitting across from him, or his

630
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 5: younger brother was there. So he had the unwavering support

631
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 5: of his family. And that was very clear from the

632
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 5: amount of people that turned up in the court yard.

633
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 5: And the judge addressed that at the end of his sentence,

634
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 5: after he told the Shad that he wouldn't have to

635
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 5: serve danger and he said, you know, I'd like to

636
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 5: just address this thing's parents on a personal note, and

637
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 5: he said, there is nothing I can see that you

638
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 5: did wrong, and then he walked out of the courtroom.

639
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 5: And I think that was there was quite an emotional

640
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 5: moment in the courtroom, especially I from the Shad parents

641
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 5: could see that they were I think quite receptive to

642
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 5: what he said and almost grateful because you can imagine

643
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 5: the impact that he's had on his family.

644
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: So this case is over. What's the next sentencing. Is

645
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: that the final sentencing in this case.

646
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 5: Yes, we've got one final sentencing hearing left in this

647
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 5: FTX saga, and that is of Gary Wong. Gary Wong

648
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 5: was the co founder at STX and helped build the

649
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 5: exchange with Sam Bak mcfreed. He became the chief technology

650
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 5: officer and he was also a corporating witness and get

651
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 5: testimony at Sam's trial. He's due to be sentenced at

652
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 5: the end of November, so it'll be interesting to see

653
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 5: where Judge Kaplan puts him on the culpability scale because

654
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 5: he knew about the that before STX and Animator Research

655
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 5: a little bit earlier than Mishad Thing did. But from

656
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 5: the evidence that we heard a trial, he wasn't as

657
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 5: deeply involved as Caroline Ellison was.

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Speaker 1: So the judge will have to balance all that out.

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Speaker 1: I know you'll be there for that, Ava, Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for bringing us inside the courtroom. That's Bloomberg Legal

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Speaker 1: reporter Eva Benny Morrison, and that's it for this edition

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Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you've can always get

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Speaker 1: the latest legal news by subscribing and listening to the

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Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and at Bloomberg dot Com,

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Speaker 1: slash podcast, slash Law. I'm June Grosso and this is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg