1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. My guest today is journalist Libby Copeland, author 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of the recently published book The Lost Family. How DNA 5 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: is uncovering secrets, reuniting relatives, and up ending who we are. Libby, 6 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Oh, 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: it's such a thrill to be here, it really is. 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. Well, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: I read I don't know how many months ago. I 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: read an early advanced copy of your book, which I 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: underlined and dog eared and scribbled. I actually went to 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 1: to find the the early Galley copy today rather than 13 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: the beautiful finished copy that just came out, because I 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: wanted to see what I had underlined and dog eared 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: and scribbled exclamation points and asterisks in the margins. You 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: and I were initially planning on actually having a public 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: conversation together that we would have recorded for the podcast 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: in early March when the book came out, which, of 19 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: course you know, very quickly became impossible. So I'm just 20 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: so glad to be able to have this conversation with 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: you now, and I wanted to start by you know, 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: one of the places in your book that I dog 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: eared and underlined was a quote that you included from 24 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: Margaret Atwood, and the quote is, all new technologies have 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: a good side, a bad side, and a stupid side. 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: You hadn't considered. So could you tell us what made 27 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: you initially decided to write The Lost Family and what 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: was the impetus for exploring this world of the unintended 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: consequences of DNA testing? Yeah? So, you know, I'm really 30 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: interested in human behavior, the push pull of what causes 31 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: people to do the things that they do, and the 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: intersection with technology and and kind of culture and human 33 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: behavior like that. That kind of nexis is really interesting 34 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: to me. Um. So, I had been that the Washington 35 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: Post as a staffer, and then um left the Post 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: and was still writing for them, and my editor there 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: was interested in writing having me write a piece about 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: DNA testing and kind of the the unexpected consequences of 39 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: DNA testing and how it plays out for people. And 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: I did wind up writing a piece about a woman 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: that I found who had an incredibly remarkable story. Her 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: name is Alice, and she wound up becoming UM the 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: central narrative of the book. But UM, this was back 44 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: in when the DNA databases were much smaller, UM and 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: UM and even so many many people were having this 46 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of experience. Now it's UM, you know, just leagues 47 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: beyond what it was even just three years years ago. 48 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: As you know, so I write this story comes out 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: in the post and UM. I had put an email 50 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: address at the bottom where people could contact me and 51 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: share their stories if they wanted to, and I literally 52 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: got hundreds of them within a very short amount of time. 53 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: I found myself totally underwater with these stories, and I 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: found them so moving, I found them so intimate. And 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: I guess what struck me about the stories that I 56 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: was hearing from from readers writing in about their experiences 57 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: with DNA testing and often the surprises and the revelations 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: that can come with it, was how, you know, these 59 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: experiences touch at the heart of who we are, and 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: their experiences that don't end. They they sort of become 61 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: a thing that you process and then reprocess and continually 62 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: discussed with family, and so it's something that goes on 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: and on and on. UM. It's not like you get 64 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: closure on it. And I just was really struck by 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: the idea that somebody could go into um an experience 66 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: with you know, just bucks and you spin in a tube, 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: but it's a very low investment and get this really 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: profound outcome. And I thought, man, that's like a cultural change. 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: This is like a sociological moment um. We're going to 70 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: look back at this. And I just started to think 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: about this in terms of a book and wanting to 72 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: gather more stories and tell them. Yeah, and as you say, um, 73 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: you know, you were somewhat early to the party in 74 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: the sense of like just the exponential growth of these 75 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: discoveries and the hundreds of thousands of people now a 76 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: year who are who are making these discoveries and they range. 77 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I I totally relate to what you're saying, 78 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: because when my Memory Inheritance came out and I started 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: traveling for it, I was so struck by all of 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: the different kinds of stories that there were that had 81 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: in common that somebody blithely recreationally sent away for a 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: kid and or received it for a holiday gift. And 83 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: then Pandora's box opened, and you know, it ranged from 84 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: late discovery adoptees to people who hadn't known that they 85 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: were conceived using donors, to people where a parent had 86 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: an affair, UM, to fathers who had children. They hadn't 87 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: known about two women who had put up children for 88 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: adoption and you know, as teenagers and had never told 89 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: a soul. And then our our found and it just 90 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: went on and on the stories. But what they had 91 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: in common was what connects us? Where? Where? Where do 92 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: we derive our sense of identity from? What do secrets 93 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: due to us? Is that some of what you found? Yeah? 94 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, I mean I found a lot of 95 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: people struggled with these questions of thinking about genetics versus 96 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, experience and basically which should dominate? Right? So, um, 97 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: does DNA determine who your father is? Or um? You know, 98 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: as you write so movingly in your book, UM you know, 99 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: is is fatherhood a position occupied by the man who 100 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: raises you, who loves you into being um? Which was 101 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: a beautiful line from your from your books that I 102 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: quoted in mind. Um. You know, I I think that we, 103 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: as human beings, we have a tendency to think about 104 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: things in in binary terms, and we definitely struggle a 105 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: little bit with a sense of UM. Genetic essentialism, so 106 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: that your genes are who you are, or they're predictor 107 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: of the future, or they are your fate. And over 108 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: and over. What I found when talking to people was 109 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: that that we, each person, each individual person, each family 110 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: is carving out their own nuanced, an emotionally sensitive and 111 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: careful definition of how they want to think about identity 112 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 1: and how they want to think about love and familiar terms. 113 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: And um, that we can choose. We can choose um 114 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: more rather than less. It doesn't have to be in 115 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: either war. It's not me defining, uh that you know 116 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: that that this is my father and this is not 117 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: my father, or these are my birth parents and these 118 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: are my adoptive parents. It's yes and um and and 119 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: it's not always the case, especially for the people on 120 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: the other side, right, the keepers of the secrets who 121 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: are being sought out, who might be elderly. Uh, you know, 122 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for them, and UM, understandably so. But 123 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: you know, my stories were primarily the people who are 124 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: doing the seeking, right, the people who are at testing 125 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: and who were who have a great deal of agency 126 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: in the search, and therefore um, you know very much 127 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: want the truth. And for them I found that there 128 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: was an incredible amount of care that they that they 129 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: took in terms of how they defined you know, how 130 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: they thought about what makes a family and UM an 131 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: inclusiveness and also you know, when they thought about you know, 132 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: ethnic identity. UM. You know, the the main character of 133 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: my book believes herself to be almost entirely Irish, turns 134 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: out to be half Ashkenazi Jewish. UM. There's a man 135 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: in my book who's UM has a story similar to 136 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: one of your guests, Racye Short who he has African 137 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: ancestry and he, you know, it wasn't it wasn't disclosed 138 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: to him as a sort of an in a bid 139 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: to protect him. So UM. You know, it seems to 140 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: me that people seem to do better when they can 141 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: approach these these UM questions with an expansiveness. But of 142 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: course that's not always possible, and there's a great deal 143 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: of trauma I think that goes along with these discoveries 144 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: on on both sides. So it's a it's a profound 145 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: it's a profound tricky I guess bioethical territory. We'll be 146 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. One of 147 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: the things that I thought a lot about after I 148 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: made my discovery about my dad and as I was 149 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: writing Inheritance, and which I'll probably think about for the 150 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: rest of my life, is that we are in this 151 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: moment in time where these secrets were held. They were kept, 152 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: It was considered for many years in the best interests 153 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: of the child, or just in the best interest of 154 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: everyone involved to keep the secret, and no one could 155 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: have imagined, you know, like an at Atwood's term, you know, 156 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: the stupid things we hadn't thought about. I mean, it's 157 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: just a funny at Woody end thing to say, but really, 158 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: the the unintended, you know, the the no one could 159 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: have imagined that there would be a future in which 160 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: that you could spit into a plastic vial and sent 161 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: it off through the mail, and that there would be 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: this thing called the Internet where you could pretty much 163 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: find out anything about anything any time. Um that would 164 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: have been you know, like the stuff of science fiction. 165 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: And I think that there will be a time that 166 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: will happen in our lifetimes where the idea that these 167 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: kinds of secrets were ever kept will seem ludicrous and wrong. 168 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: You know, it'll be you know, something that people look 169 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: at and think, no secrets. Are they what we don't 170 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: know can hurt us, it does hurt us. Or there's 171 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: there's a line in your book, UM that one of 172 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: your subjects, UM, one of your subjects says it's a secret. 173 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: But at some point it becomes a lie too, you know. 174 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: And we're like, we're formed by things that are kept 175 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: from us. When when there's something as profound as like 176 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: on the level of identity that's kept from us. But 177 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: there will be a point where I think the fact 178 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: of these DNA tests will make it impossible parents. Now 179 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: I've seen it starting to happen parents even contemporary you know, 180 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: people having raising families now who have been on the 181 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: fence about whether to tell their children the truth about 182 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: doing or conception or I think less so with adopt 183 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: because it's been truer for much longer that that, you know, 184 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: the received wisdom being UM that people who are adopted 185 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: should be told, and they should be told from the 186 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: time that it can be woven into their consciousness, their identity, 187 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: from the time you're very small. But there still are 188 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: quite a lot of people, at least anecdotally in my experience, 189 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: who are choosing not to tell their children UM and 190 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: what's starting to happen is that those people are having 191 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: to come face to face with the fact that it 192 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: is likely that their children will find out right. Yeah, 193 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: not a question of if, but when right, And so 194 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: that changes everything. Yeah, I mean it. You know, it's 195 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: interesting because, um, you know, a few years ago, I 196 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: think when I started writing my book, there was a 197 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: kind of a framing um that I would see and 198 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: that I kind of even, you know, approached certain questions 199 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: with which was, you know, um, what should people know 200 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: before they do a DNA test? And I don't even 201 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: think of it like that anymore because I think that 202 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: increasingly it doesn't matter whether or not a person does 203 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: a DNA test, because if they there's a genetic secret 204 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: in their family, it's going to come out because somebody 205 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: close to them does a DNA test. So you know, 206 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: you don't do it, but your sister does, and then 207 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: you find out your half siblings or you don't you 208 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, you don't do a genetic test, but your 209 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: adult child does and informs you that you are don't 210 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: are conceived. I've seen that happen, um, And so you know, 211 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: it could even be like a first cousin um or 212 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: a second cousin, you know it. So the point is 213 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: that I think we're all implicated by a technology that 214 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: makes it inevitable that we have to have conversations that 215 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: may seem difficult, that their conversations about transparency and about 216 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: you know, the origins of people's lives. And so it's 217 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: increasingly not a question of like, what do you have 218 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: to think about before you take a DNA test? It's 219 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: it's actually a conversation framed around UM, the people who 220 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: are the keepers of the genetic secrets, UM who again, 221 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, at one point in time, it was considered 222 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: the right thing to do to not tell your child 223 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: perhaps about you know, certain ways which they came into 224 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: the world. But now now it's there's a moment where 225 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: they're kind of have to start thinking about how are 226 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: they going to have a conversation with their child, UM 227 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: before that child finds out by spitting into a tube. 228 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: Because because over and over people have told me that 229 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: it is so much better to find out the news, 230 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: albeit late, from people who love you, than to find out, 231 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, sort of by backing into it by spitting 232 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: into a tube and then having to have that conversation 233 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: with your parents and say, why didn't you tell me this? 234 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: That's such an important point, um, And I would take 235 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: it one step further, which is, you know my story 236 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: a many people's stories, which is you know your parents 237 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: are gone and and you're left holding the mystery. That's 238 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: so I can feel the truth in what you're saying. 239 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: In people's experience, I'm imagining, um, you know, being told 240 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: and the reckonings that are going on, you know, all 241 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: over mostly this country, because where the where the where 242 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: the country obsessed with DNA tests. It was like something 243 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: like of the consumers of DNA testing worldwide are are American? 244 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: I think that's something like or to go back to 245 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: what you were saying before about the the yes and 246 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: like the way that we tend to like we human 247 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: beings tend to think in these binary ways. And the 248 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: the parents who made those choices did so at a 249 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: time where they felt that it was in their family's 250 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: best interests, in their child's best interests. So for them 251 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: to have to experience this reckoning, I mean I get 252 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: heartbreaking letters and emails from people all the time saying, 253 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: I read your book, I can see how hard it 254 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: would be for my grown children to find this out. 255 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: After I'm gone, but I don't know how to sit 256 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: them down and tell them, you know, And I'm not 257 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not an expert. I'm I'm an expert 258 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: from the inside of the emotional experience, of my emotional 259 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: experience of what it was to be left holding a 260 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: massive mystery. And in my case, I was incredibly fortunate 261 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: because there were just enough clues and I was able 262 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: to figure it out instead of staying in this kind 263 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: of limbo state of not knowing. And you know, I 264 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: think it's true too that many people have asked, like 265 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: during Q and as and my events, why was it 266 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: so important to know? And what I find myself um 267 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: trying to explain is that when you've spent your life 268 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: in one certainty, a biological certainty, that your parents who 269 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: raise you are your biological parents, that's your identity as 270 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: you are their biological child, and then you find out 271 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: that that's not the case, it's extraordinarily unmooring as opposed 272 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: to always knowing. So, for example, adoptees who have had 273 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: the story of their origin woven into their consciousness from 274 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: the time that they were sentient beings, even if that 275 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: story was we don't know, they grow up knowing that 276 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: there is not a biological connection between them and their family, 277 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: and that is not easy, but it's the truth. And 278 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: so they're growing up like inside of the truth. And 279 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: when you grow up inside of a secret or inside 280 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: of a lie, a deception, two then make that discovery, 281 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: whether it's by accident or you know, I mean, it's 282 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: it's almost to always. I mean, I suppose there's some 283 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: people who take these DNA tests because they suspect something, 284 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: but it's much more, it seems much much more common 285 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: that people are taking them just for fun. And so 286 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: the messaging of you know, uh, Kelly rip A, you know, 287 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: waiving the Italian flag, you know that she's like one 288 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: eight Italian and fun facts that you may find out. 289 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: That's sort of the inverse side of what you were 290 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: talking about, UM of people UM saying well, uh, you know, 291 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: there should be you know, people should have much more 292 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: informed consent going into this, or much more of a 293 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: sense that, well, you may discover, you know, some things 294 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: that are challenging, and that's in the fine print, But nobody, 295 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: very few people go in actually thinking I may discover 296 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: something really sort of earth shattering, right, I mean, over 297 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: and over the people I talked to, even if they 298 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: read the warning, you know, you may discover unexpected work relatives, 299 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: or you may discover something about yourself that you were 300 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: not expecting to learn. Um. You know, they do give 301 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: the warnings, but over and over I found people assumed 302 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: that that that wasn't that it wasn't gonna happen to them, 303 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: was going to apply to them, because why why would 304 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: you It would take a feat of extreme cognitive dissonance 305 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: for you to imagine that your entire life was about 306 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: to be up ended in all your assumptions and your 307 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: your origin story was about to be turned on its head. 308 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: Why would you assume that? And so we go, you know, 309 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: we go into this assuming that the greatest cost is 310 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: going to be the ninety nine bucks that you pay 311 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: and um and and it's it's it's a low investment. 312 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: I mean, it's become very very inexpensive. And um, as 313 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: you say, the marketing is all um, it's you know, 314 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: it's marketed as an entertainment vehicle, which it is for 315 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: many people. UM, you know, just a sort of a 316 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: vehicle for family history. And yet for that significant minority 317 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: of people it's um, you know, it contains a revelation 318 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: that is so much more meaningful than the price that 319 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: they paid going in. And yes, ultimately maybe something that 320 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: they UM. I found, as you've said, the vast majority 321 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: of people, ultimately, if it's something about them, they're glad 322 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: to know. And yet that's not to say that the 323 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: process is not um man. It's just it's a profound 324 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: one that goes on and on and um. You know. 325 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: Just one of the things I noticed as I was 326 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: interviewing people was the commonality of the language. So you know, 327 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: over and over I heard something that I've started thinking 328 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: about as the lonely boat metaphor. And the lonely boat 329 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: metaphor is this description of feeling a drift. And it's 330 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: often accompanying when you when you take the test and 331 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: you find out you're maybe not related to um you know, 332 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: your paternal side, for instance, or you're you know you're 333 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: related right, you're you know half of your roots are 334 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: not what you thought um. Or your siblings are not 335 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: your full siblings, are not at all your siblings. UM. 336 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: A lot of people would voice the sense of feeling 337 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: a drift or cut off, like they were on a 338 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: raft been pushed out to see UM. So what what 339 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: that told me? That sort of language over and over 340 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: again from different people who had not been discussing their 341 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, conferring with one another in advance. That told 342 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: me that there was a kind of I guess the psychological, 343 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: emotional even maybe like a spiritual um human links there 344 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: between these experiences, that that experience is maybe intrinsic. It's 345 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: not just a cultural it's not just a cultural importance. 346 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a like a primal human response 347 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: to finding out that you're not genetically related to people 348 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: that you feel your you know, you assumed that you were. Um. 349 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: And then this description and this is what made me 350 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: think of it, because you use the word rootedness. That 351 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: word I also heard over and over again literally that word, 352 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: and then words that go along with it. You know, 353 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: this idea that you have roots into the ground that 354 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: you are, you are unstable ground upon discovering you know, 355 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: you're or genetic origins right, or or who your birth 356 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: parents were, for instance, for an adoptee. So that language 357 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: too was very um. It was echoed over and over again, 358 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: and I just thought it was really interesting. I think 359 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: going forward, there's gonna be a body of research from 360 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: psychologists who study this, and they're going to treat this 361 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: and maybe it will be a subspecialty. You know, the 362 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: DNA surprise or finding out your you know, you know 363 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: your your your origins weren't what you thought, or in 364 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: the search for your genetic identity or however whatever terms 365 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: it it, you know, minds up falling under. I think 366 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: there will be um research that looks at the emotions 367 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: that a company this experience and then the language that 368 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: that accompany is it, And I just think it's going 369 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: to be I don't know. I think this is a 370 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: moment in time we're going to look back on and 371 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: we're going to say, this is the moment when everything changed. 372 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: You know, Um, this is the moment when the way 373 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: families talked about certain difficult things changed. The is the 374 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: moment when really painful conversations had to be had all 375 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: across the United States will be right back. I'm just 376 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: thinking about the lonely boat metaphor and then the language 377 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: around rooted nous and how opposite those are, you know, 378 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: the floating at sea, the you know, the being on 379 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: the surface of something that is moving, and the rooted 380 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: nous of being um, you know, like tethered to the 381 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: earth or part of something solid, and that's so that's 382 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: really powerful, and it doesn't it doesn't surprise me at 383 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: all that you would hear that again and again. Um. 384 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's also the something else that I think 385 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: will be studied, which is in many of the stories 386 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: of people who make these discoveries, there are childhood feelings 387 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: that are very much in common. There's um, I mean 388 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: stunning lee. So because I remember starting to do research 389 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: and reading everything that there was that I could find, 390 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: any testimony, any essay, any any any piece of journalism 391 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: of people who had who had made these discoveries, and 392 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: the language around childhood of feeling other or different or 393 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: something not adding up, something just not feeling right, but 394 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: not knowing what it could possibly be because it didn't 395 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: make any sense. This feeling was echoed again and again. 396 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, one of the things to 397 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: go back to what you were saying about the the binary, 398 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: the nature nurture, I feel like I want I want 399 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: listeners who are thinking about this to really understand that 400 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: what we're not talking about is the not talking about 401 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: the primacy of nature. We're talking about the um the 402 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: damage that secret can do? You know, I would find 403 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: myself in almost you know, contentious situations with people coming 404 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: to my events who would sometimes say, and often these 405 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: were adoptive parents, parents who had adopted. Um, say, you 406 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: seem to be saying that nature is all that matters. 407 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: And I have never felt that way. I have felt, 408 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: but I had to really think about that, right, like 409 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: what why do we want to discount nature? And at 410 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: least as far as my thinking about that has come 411 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: so far, I think we want to discount nature because 412 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: we can't control it. And we think we can control nurture, 413 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: like we can love our children and provide a value 414 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: system for them and raise them, you know, within what 415 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: we consider to be, you know, a safe and nurturing 416 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: environment and that that means that all will be well. Um, 417 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: we can control nurture, but nature is a wild card always. 418 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you have more than one kid? Are they? 419 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: Are they the same? No? They're different, right right, like 420 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: any I only have one, so I don't have direct 421 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: knowledge of that, but I've see, like all my friends 422 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: who have a bunch of, you know, more than one child, 423 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: that it's nature is nature and nature is kind of 424 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: like the way the cook the way the cookie crumbles 425 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: to some degree. So so all I'm ever saying when 426 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm talking about this stuff is that we can't discount nature. 427 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: We can't um as much as we would like to say, 428 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. And I think that the people who 429 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: have held these secrets are doing so out of the 430 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: desperate wish to have nature and not matter at all. 431 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: To eradicate it. Yeah, I mean I I definitely have 432 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: encountered as well this kind of approach where it's like, well, 433 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: what does it matter if you didn't know that you 434 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: were um Ashkenazi Jewish, and you thought you were completely 435 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: Irish and you were raised Irish, what does it matter? Um? 436 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the women that I interviewed 437 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: for the books was like, it's everything, right, It's it's 438 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: it's it's so not nothing, it's everything. It is entirely 439 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: my story. UM. And maybe that's hard to understand when 440 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: you have never had, like face a disruption to your 441 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: origin story or or or going even farther back to 442 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: your family history. UM. But narratives are what makes human 443 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: beings human beings, you know. And I don't think that 444 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: you can tell the story of yourself if you if 445 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: you don't know your beginning, if you don't know your 446 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: once upon a time, and if you discover that you're 447 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: once upon a time is completely dislocated, then then the 448 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: experience that I heard people voicing over no Or was 449 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: that they literally didn't know where they were standing on 450 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: the earth. It was as if they had stood up 451 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: and the earth had spun under them like a marble, 452 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: and then they were plopped back down. They were like, 453 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: where am I right? So how you know? And again, 454 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, make it? Maybe this is for for people 455 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: who haven't experienced this. It seems kind of abstract. So 456 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: what you thought you were one thing, but you're really another. Um? 457 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: So what you know? That's your dad, the guy who 458 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: raised you. He did the hard work. Well, yes, and 459 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: also and also and if you look at the experiences 460 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: of adoptees UM, you know, going back from forever um, 461 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: you know they they can love their adopted parents deeply 462 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: and also want to know about their birth parents. And 463 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't supplant their love for their parents. It doesn't 464 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: supplant the love for the people who raised them. It's 465 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: it's an adjunct. But but it's about I guess, like 466 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: self knowledge, right, and um. And to use another piece 467 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: of language that I heard over and over again, the 468 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: word the sort of phrase of the imagery that I 469 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: heard over and over with, I had a hole in 470 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: my heart and now it's filled. And people would talk 471 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: about this sense of loss, like like there was a 472 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: piece missing from them UM, and that when they had 473 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: the knowledge didn't have to be by the way, a 474 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: relationship with their genetic parents, if the genetic parent, say, 475 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: was no longer alive or didn't want to have a relationship, 476 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: and that that would happen, and that was painful, but 477 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: it was It was the the seeking was in the 478 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: sort of this the knowledge, the knowing, the understanding, or 479 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: at least having a shot at understanding, even if you 480 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: couldn't really know, because you couldn't ask your genetic parents 481 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: certain questions about, you know, the circumstances of your birth, 482 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: but just sort of to know that. People would tell 483 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: me that it kind of approached the beginnings of putting 484 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: the puzzle piece into place or or you know, plugging 485 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: up that hole in their heart. UM. That kind of 486 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: self knowledge, I just don't think there's any substitute for it. 487 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: M HM for more podcasts for My Heart Radio visit 488 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 489 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.