1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: It was the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. Kevin Dellinger woke up 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: twelve hundred miles away from his Oklahoma home in a 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: hotel room in Washington, d c. 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: And it was a cold and blistery day on November 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: twenty seventh. 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Kevin is the attorney general for Muscogee Creek Nation, the 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: fifth largest tribe in the United States. That morning, he 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: got dressed, had his coffee, organized his briefcase, and headed 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: to the United States Supreme Court. 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: I hate to use the word battle, because not necessarily 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 2: a battle, but the decision to continue to hold on 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 2: to what is right, what we had been promised, we 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: were upholding our treaties. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: When I met Kevin, I immediately got the sense that 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: he takes his job very seriously. 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 3: He doesn't carry. 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: Himself with an air of self importance like so many 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: peas bull and power. 19 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: He's a humble man, a. 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: Creekman, with a clear eyed view of what's at stake 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: for his tribe. The land matters, but so does everything 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: it stands for. What Kevin's tribe is fighting for at 23 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is their reservation, the land where they've 24 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: lived for the past one hundred and eighty years. 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: That ties us to who we are, ties us to 26 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: our sovereignty, and you know, without the land we lose 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 2: that we don't have that. 28 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: Muskogee Creek Nations Reservation spans eleven counties across eastern Oklahoma. 29 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: It's a massive expanse with small towns, farmland, and parts 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: of Tulsa and its suburbs. Muskogee Creek Nation has made 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: this piece of Oklahoma their home, but it is not 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: where they are originally from. In the eighteen thirties, the 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: US government brought them here at gunpoint. 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: I think it's a horrible part of the United States 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: history that maybe is not always told, or maybe not 36 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: everybody knows about. But it was a forced march from 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: the southeast part of the United States to Oklahoma, and 38 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: we lost a lot of our ancestors and a lot 39 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: of our families. 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: An estimated thirty five hundred Greek people out of twenty 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: thousand didn't survive that march. Imagine every sixth person you 42 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: knew dying just after being forced to leave the only 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: home you'd ever known. 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: So we've already lost our original homelands once, those sacred 45 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: lands that were very near and dear to us, and 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: again I say sacred because the land's very important to us. 47 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: That's a part of who we are. 48 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: What makes Indigenous people indigenous is our connection to the land. 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: Being forced to leave struck at the core of who 50 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: we are still the Creeks who survived this geness I'd 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: managed to rebuild their tribe. 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: It's amazing that we are here today and what our 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: tribal government has been able to accomplish, what our people 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: have been able to accomplish. We're still here alive in 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: trying to make our community and our reservation a better place. 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: Is a pretty amazing, I think fascinating story. 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: But now, in twenty nineteen generations after forced removal, the 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: tribe could lose their land again. Those are the stakes 59 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: that Kevin sees clearly. 60 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: And so we're already removed once from our land, so 61 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: you know, going through this again now is basically going 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: through that removal process through a different way. 63 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: So Kevin went to the Supreme Court on November twenty 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: seventh to watch the justices debate the future of his tribe. 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 4: Next the case seventeen eleven oh seven Carpenter versus Murphy. 66 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: You're listening to This Land, a podcast about broken promises 67 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: tribal land and murder. 68 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: This year, the Supreme. 69 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: Court will decide the future of five Native American tribes, 70 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: including mine, when it answers one question, is half the 71 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: land in Oklahoma Indian Country? From Cricket Media, I'm your 72 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: host Rebecca Nagel, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Last episode, you 73 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: heard the story of Patrick Murphy, a man who was 74 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: convicted of murder in McIntosh County, Oklahoma, nearly two decades ago. 75 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: His case made it to the Supreme Court because Murphy's 76 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: lawyers argued that the State of Oklahoma didn't have jurisdiction 77 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: to sentence him to death. They didn't even have the 78 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: right to hear his case in the first place, because 79 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: the murder didn't happen on state land. It happened on 80 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: a reservation. The state of Oklahoma sees it differently. They 81 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: say that Muskogee Creek Nation's reservation no longer exists, so 82 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: of course they were within their rights to prosecute Murphy. 83 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: That disagreement is how the reservation of Kevin Dellinger's tribe 84 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: became the subject of a Supreme Court battle. 85 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: I think the simplest way to summarize it would be 86 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: you know whether the reservation boundaries of the Muskoge Creek 87 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: Nation in the eighteen sixty six reservation boundaries of the 88 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: Muscogee Creek Nation were ever disestablished or not. 89 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: And that's why I care so much about this case. 90 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: As you know, I'm a citizen of Cherokee Nation. Muskogee 91 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: Creek Nation is a separate tribe, but we have similar, 92 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: almost parallel histories. Before Oklahoma became a state, both Creek 93 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: and Cherokee Nations operated independently within our treaty territories. Then 94 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: Oklahoma was created on top of that land, and ever 95 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: since statehood, Oklahoma has treated our tribes as if our 96 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: reservations no longer exist. We won't know until we read 97 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: the decision. But if the Supreme Court interprets that history 98 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: to say, hey, Creek Nation, you no longer have a reservation, 99 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: it could apply to my tribe too. In fact, it 100 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: could apply to a total of five tribes Muskogee Creek Nation, 101 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: Seminal Nation of Oklahoma, Chickasaw Nation, Choctaw Nation, and the 102 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation. The state of Oklahoma might not recognize it, 103 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: but the truth is a little under half of its 104 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: land has been Indian country all along, and in twenty seventeen, 105 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: a US Appeals Bulls Court agreed. In an unexpected victory, 106 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: the court ruled that Muscogee Creek Nations reservation was never abolished. Finally, 107 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: the US government acknowledged what Kevin had always known to 108 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: be true. 109 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: I came into the office and read it, the complete opinion. 110 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: It took me about four hours to get through everything 111 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: and read it. We were ecstatic, would be putting it mildly, 112 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: but extremely pleased coming to the conclusion that our reservation 113 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: boundaries had never been disestablished. So it was a wonderful day. 114 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 3: But that victory didn't mean the fight was over. 115 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: The celebration was kind of short and sweet. 116 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: Oklahoma appealed. 117 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: When Kevin Dellinger read the Circuit Court's decision, he was 118 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: sitting in his office at Muscogee Creek Nations Tribal Complex. 119 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: If the place where you imagine contemporary tribal leaders conduct 120 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: their business looks like a tepee or a wigwam, you 121 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: want to pause here and erase that mental image. Instead, 122 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: picture city hall, the county courthouse, a state office building. 123 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: I went to a Mulgi, Oklahoma to speak with the 124 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: tribe who is fighting for their land at the Supreme Court. 125 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 5: Our citizens are eighty seven thousand plus. 126 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: This is their elected leader. 127 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 5: I'm James Floyd, the Principal Chief Muscogee Creek Nation. 128 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: Muskogee Creek Nation is one of five hundred and seventy 129 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: three federally recognized tribes in the US. Muscogee Creek Nation's 130 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: government is modern. It's democratic, and at times even boringly bureaucratic. 131 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 6: Fourteen favor one against that motion is adopted to your eighteen. 132 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 6: That's one two eight. A tribal resolution of the Muscoge 133 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 6: Creek Nation authorized the Principal Chief jextute a group booking 134 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 6: agreement with the Chalcdawn Nation for the twenty nineteen Oklahoma 135 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 6: Johnson on Maley Conference. 136 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: Day to day business on their reservation is well run 137 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: of the mill. 138 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 5: Our citizens are allowed to get married and divorced in 139 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 5: our courts. You know, if they break the law on 140 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 5: our lands, they can be prosecuted in their tribal courts. 141 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 5: We pass laws that regulate commerce, taxation on our lands, 142 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 5: and assistance to communities both run by the nation and 143 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 5: within the nation. 144 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: Sovereignty is something most Americans never think about, but experience 145 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: every day as a citizen of the United States, you 146 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: don't expect Canada to control your lands or your commerce. 147 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: If you're a resident of Vermont or Montana, you don't 148 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: think Illinois can tell you what to do. Sovereignty is 149 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: the same for tribe. Our right to self governance isn't 150 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: given to us by the United States. Our right to 151 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: self governance has existed long before the United States was 152 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: even a country, and like any government, we exercise it. 153 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 5: We just continue to work almost synonymous to city or 154 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 5: county governments, and we see them as our peers. 155 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: Chief Floyd was at the Supreme Court on the day 156 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: of oral arguments. He sat next to Kevin Dellinger in 157 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: a row of leaders from Creek Nation. 158 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: Your argument next in case seventeen eleven oh seven Carpenter 159 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 4: versus Murphy. 160 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, the Supreme Court was asked to hear 161 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: over seven thousand cases. They took seventy seven. One of 162 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: them was Carpenter v. Murphy, and that by itself is 163 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: not a great sign. The Supreme Court doesn't usually hear 164 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: a case because they want to tell the lower court, 165 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: great job, guys, we agree with everything you said. They 166 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: usually want to change the outcome, and there's another reason 167 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: to be worried for Muscogee Creek Nation. Between two thousand 168 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: and six and twenty sixteen, tribes lost nine out of 169 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: eleven cases in the Supreme Court. Here's Lisa Blatt, attorney 170 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: for the State of Oklahoma, making her opening. 171 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 7: Statement, Thank you, mister Chief Justice, and may it please 172 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 7: to court Eastern Oklahoma is not an Indian reservation for 173 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 7: three reasons. First, Congress destroyed all features of a reservation 174 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 7: by terminating all sovereignty over the land in the march 175 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 7: of to statehood. Second, Solomn is not to the contrary. 176 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Salem is the name of a Supreme Court case. It's 177 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: the test the Supreme Court uses to see if a 178 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: reservation exists or not. 179 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 7: And Third, affirmans would immediately trigger a seismic shift in 180 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 7: criminal and civil jurisdiction. 181 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: Then, attorneys for the United States and Patrick Murphy spoke 182 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: Ria's Kanji, attorney for Muskogee Creek Nation, went last reservation. 183 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 8: As Justice Kagan said, when Congress takes any block of land, 184 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 8: reserves it from the public domain, reserves it from sale, 185 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 8: that creates the reservation. Then in order for that to 186 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 8: be returned to the public demand or to be disestablished. 187 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 8: Congress has to expressly indicate that intent. 188 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: When I was listening to the Supreme Court oral arguments, 189 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: I was listening closely to the justices for clues, for 190 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: any hint of how they might vote or how well 191 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: they know the details of the case. Here's Justice Elena Kagan. 192 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 9: And then comes to the Five Tribes Act. 193 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 10: Congress actually changes its mind again. Instead, forget this. 194 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 6: We thought it was kind of a bad idea. 195 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,359 Speaker 7: We're going to extend tribal government for all purposes authorized 196 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 7: by law. 197 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Justice Kagan kind of giving Oklahoma's lawyer a history lesson. 198 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: She knew what had happened blow by blow. 199 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: I was also listening for what arguments the justices sound 200 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: sympathetic towards. 201 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 11: The historical practice for a century has been against you, 202 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 11: and stability is a critical value in judicial decision making, 203 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 11: and we would be departing from that and creating a 204 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 11: great deal of turmoil. 205 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: It sounds like Justice Cavanaugh buys Oklahoma's argument that recognizing 206 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: the reservations would cause turmoil. 207 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,479 Speaker 3: Not good, but not surprising. 208 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: Both sides have a lot at stake at the end 209 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: of the day. The fate of Muscogee Creek Nation will 210 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: be determined by just eight people. The lineup of the 211 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: Supreme Court has gotten a lot, a lot of attention 212 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: since President Trump made two new nominations, Justice Brett Kavanaugh 213 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: and Justice Neil Gorsuch. Now the court has five conservative 214 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: justices and four Liberal justices. But Justice Gorsuch recused himself 215 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: because he dealt with the case back when it was 216 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: on the tenth Circuit. That leaves eight justices. Creek Nation 217 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: only needs four votes to win. A tie goes to 218 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: the side that won in the lower court. And fortunately 219 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: there are four liberal justices Kagan, sodomayor Bryer, and of 220 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: course Ginsburg. 221 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 12: Keep in mind, and you say four liberal justices, you're 222 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 12: including Justice Ginsburg. She is not a guaranteed vote here 223 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 12: at all. 224 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: This is Matthew Fletcher. He's a citizen of Grand Traverse 225 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians. 226 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 12: I'm a law professor at Michigan State University College of Law. 227 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: So Ginsburg is not a guaranteed vote. You're probably wondering why. 228 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: Here's the clue. Ginsburg's questioning during oral arguments was very 229 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: different than the three other liberal justices. When Oklahoma's attorney 230 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: made her opening statement. 231 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 7: First, Congress stripped the former Indian territory a reservation status 232 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 7: by terminating all tribal sovereignty over the area to create Oklahoma. 233 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: Just as Sodomyor interrupted her. 234 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 7: This establishment, exactly when did it do this? 235 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 9: What's the exact date? It wasn't in the Enabling Act 236 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 9: when the state became, when the state was pro well 237 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 9: when Seddie Roosevelt proclaimed it a state, but nothing in 238 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 9: the Enabling Act did that. So exactly what's the date? 239 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 10: I mean? 240 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 7: Our position is it was done by statehood. Our position 241 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 7: is more fundamentally that we don't know to state state date. 242 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 9: But at statehood the tribe was still in existence. 243 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: This grilling went on. 244 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: Brian and Kagan also pounded Oklahoma's attorney you with questions. 245 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: She basically argued that when Congress passed laws to create 246 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: the state of Oklahoma, those laws dissolved Creek Nations reservation, 247 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: but Briar, Kagan and Soda Mayor were not buying it. 248 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: During all this, Ginsburg just sat there silent. She only 249 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: asked one question. 250 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: Before you sit down, you said very quickly. 251 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 9: The ramifications of the point of appeals decision areas other 252 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 9: than criminal jurisdiction. 253 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 6: You mentioned tax I think. 254 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg asked one question and it wasn't about 255 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: reservations or the history of the tribes. Nope, it was 256 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: about taxes, about the possibility of Oklahoma losing revenue if 257 00:16:54,200 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: the tribes win. So, yeah, I'm worried. Before you think 258 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: I'm coming for Ginsburg, please know, as a woman, I 259 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: appreciate her work on gender equity, and of course I 260 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: don't want her to go anywhere in the next few years. 261 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: But on this case, she is the justice I am 262 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: most worried about. Of the liberal justices, it's Ginsburg who's 263 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: the most likely to vote against the tribe. Here's Fletcher again. 264 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 12: Justice Ginsburg could be scared off and vote against mister 265 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 12: Murphy in order to preserve the settled expectations of non 266 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 12: Indian people in that area. She's done it before. 267 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: In two thousand and five, in a case called Cheryl, 268 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: Ginsburg argued that the reservation of Oneida Nation no longer existed. 269 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: She wrote the majority opinion. She argued that since the 270 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: reservation hadn't been recognized for so long. 271 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: Their treaty was moot. 272 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: She also cited a fifteenth century doctrine that gave white 273 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: people claim to native land because Indians were non Christian Heathens. 274 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 3: It was a terrible decision. 275 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: These days, Ginsburg is a bonafide celebrity, with memes, an 276 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: Oscar nominated documentary, and a lot of attention. Still, it's 277 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: not surprising that no one talks about notorious Rbg's. 278 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 3: Record on Indian law. 279 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: No one talks about any judges track record on Indian law. Ever, 280 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: when justices make a decision, they're supposed to look at 281 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: how the Supreme Court has ruled in the past, you know, precedent. 282 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: In other words, they're not supposed to just make stuff up. 283 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: In this case, they're looking at what Congress and the 284 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court have said about reservations. When did they exist, 285 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: when do they not, and how do we know? Here's 286 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: Matthew Fletcher again. 287 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 12: A reservation is a area of land in which the 288 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 12: United States and an Indian tribe have come to an 289 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 12: agreement that that land will constitute the homeland of an 290 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 12: Indian tribe. Reservations are created by treaties or through acts 291 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 12: of Congress. Even if a treaty is very old and 292 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 12: they almost all are there are still the law of 293 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 12: the land until the tribe or Congress agrees to eliminate 294 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 12: the treaty. 295 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: So the legal question in this case is really more 296 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: of a history question. To win this case, Oklahoma needs 297 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: to find an Act of Congress that expressly ended the 298 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: Creek reservation. 299 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 12: If the law says the reservation is hereby disestablished or terminated, 300 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 12: then you've got the answer to your question. 301 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 3: But spoiler alert, the. 302 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 12: Murphy case is a case where there is no act 303 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 12: of Congress that does that. 304 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: So no act of Congress dissolve the reservation. Pretty cut 305 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: and dry. Creek Nation has something else on its side. 306 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: As recently as twenty sixteen, the Supreme Court ruled that 307 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: a reservation boundary of another tribe should stand. In a 308 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: case called Nebraska v. 309 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: Parker. 310 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: The Court ruled the Omaha Tribes reservation hadn't been disestablished, 311 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: using the exact same test Fletcher just explained, And the 312 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: Omaha Tribe didn't just win, they won in a unanimous decision. 313 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: Seven of those justices who voted in their favor are 314 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: still on the bench, including Ginsburg. Only four of them 315 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: need to vote the same way for Creek Nation to win. 316 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: But there's one big difference between the two cases. The 317 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: disputed area the Supreme Court upheld for the Omaha Tribe 318 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: is part of one small town in rural Nebraska. In 319 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: Murphy's case, the disputed area covers forty percent of the 320 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: state of Oklahoma, has over a million non native residents, 321 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: and sits on top of vast oil and gas reserves. 322 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 12: If they look at how many people live on the 323 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 12: reservation and the fact that parts of the city of 324 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 12: Tulsa are located technically within the reservation and ignore the text, 325 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 12: then they'll rule in favor of the state of Oklahoma. 326 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 12: That is the dilemma, so to speak, for the Supreme Court. 327 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 12: Are they going to stick with their principles and be 328 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 12: a court and rule in favor of mister Murphy and 329 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 12: the tribes? Are they just going to start making stuff up? 330 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: Muscogee Creek Nation and Native advocates are not asking for 331 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: the federal courts to write the wrongs of history. They're 332 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: not asking for any court to change the law. They're 333 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: simply asking for the law to be followed. But the 334 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: problem is, for as long as the United States has 335 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: been making laws about the rights of Indian tribes, it's 336 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: been breaking them. Listening to this podcast, you may have 337 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: heard of some things for the first time, like allotment 338 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: or tribal jurisdiction, or even what a federally recognized tribe is. 339 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: None of this stuff is taught in schools or covered 340 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: in the news. It definitely be helpful if the general 341 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: public knew more. But at the same time, I get 342 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: why they don't. Federal judges, though, the people who determine 343 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: what the rights of tribes are, surely they know this stuff. 344 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: But here's some of what they've said. Starting with Justice Kennedy. 345 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 10: Could Congress pass laws saying that all five hundred plus 346 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 10: Indian tribes in the United States have unl limited criminal authority, 347 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 10: could impose life sentences on non tribal members of American citizens. 348 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 11: We think not. 349 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 13: And Justice O'Connor, if you prevail in this case, then 350 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 13: could suits be brought by the tribe to addict current 351 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 13: owners of land on the historical Oneida three hundred thousand 352 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 13: acre reservation. 353 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 10: No, Justice O'Connor. 354 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 3: And finally, Justice Roberts. 355 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 14: What if you had a tribe with a zero percent 356 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 14: blood requirement, they're open for you know, people who want 357 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 14: to apply, who think culturally they're a Cherokee, or any 358 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 14: number of nations they accept conversions. 359 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 11: I mean is would that child be considered an Indian child? 360 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: Quick answers, No, tribes can't seize private property or imprison 361 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: all white people, and feeling culturally Cherokee doesn't make you 362 00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: a member. 363 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 3: Of a tribe. 364 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: The most powerful judicial decision makers, the Supreme Court justices, 365 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: don't know the basics of Indian law. As people worry 366 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: whether or not the new lineup of Supreme Court justices 367 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: will uphold important precedent like Roe v. 368 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 3: Wade. 369 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: Nobody is talking about Indian law, yet it's where precedent 370 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: is most likely to get chucked out the window because 371 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: non native people aren't paying attention. 372 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 12: The cynic in me says, there is no such thing 373 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 12: as precedent in Indian law. They depart from an at will, 374 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 12: and it depends heavily on how a case is argued 375 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 12: and what the power structure is aligned in a given case. 376 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: And in the Murphy case, the power structure is not 377 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: on the same side as the tribes. What happens in 378 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: cases like this is that the justices choose to do 379 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: what's convenient, what's convenient for white people. That's what happened 380 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: in Cherokee Nation versus Georgia in eighteen thirty one. That's 381 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: what happened in City of Cheryl versus Oneida, Indian Nation 382 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: of New York in two thousand and five. That's what 383 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: happened in Baby Girl versus adoptive couple in twenty thirteen. 384 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 12: But if you leave them on their own and you're 385 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 12: trying to make moral arguments to the Supreme Court, or 386 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 12: you're trying to call upon past practices of the Supreme Court, 387 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 12: tribes should fully expect to lose those cases almost every 388 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 12: single time. 389 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: The Tuesday after Thanksgiving was a very busy day for 390 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: Kevin Dellinger. After leaving the Supreme Court. He had interviews 391 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: and meetings, so it wasn't until that evening that he 392 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: had a moment to reflect on everything that had happened. 393 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: It just really hit me that, you know, we did 394 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: the right thing. We got involved in this because we 395 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 2: needed to protect the sovereignty of the nation. We know, 396 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: it's pretty amazing that we're here today. What our ancestors 397 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 2: went through to get us from the homeland back east 398 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 2: to here is just it's incredible that any of us 399 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: are here today. 400 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: I know how he feels. I'll be absorbed in my 401 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: day to day life struggles both big and small, and 402 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: then embarrassed. I'll catch myself and I'll think about what 403 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: my ancestors went through. My worries are so small compared 404 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: to their sacrifice. It's humbling to think of what they 405 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: went through so I could still be here today, a 406 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: Cherokee woman. In twenty nineteen, when we met, Kevin told 407 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: me a similar story about being frustrated by a snowstorm. 408 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 2: And I got to my office, you know, and there 409 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: was hardly anyone here. On my office wall, I have 410 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: a picture called the Trail of Tears, and it's a 411 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 2: Creek artist who has a picture of our people on 412 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: the Trail of tears. In that moment, I felt very 413 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: ashamed of myself. I had a coat to wear, I 414 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 2: had a home that was heated, and I realized how 415 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: selfish and silly I was being, because, you know, there 416 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: were people had no choice other than to walk in 417 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 2: these deplorable conditions, didn't know if they were going to 418 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: make it or not, didn't know if the person next 419 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: to them was going to make it or not, didn't 420 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 2: know if their family was going to make. 421 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 14: It or not. 422 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: This spring, every Monday morning at ten am Eastern Standard time, 423 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court will publish a batch of decisions. The 424 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: Murphy decision could drop any week between now and the 425 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: end of June. We'll find out together. 426 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: There's probably not a day that goes by that someone 427 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: and ask me, what's going on with Murphy? When are 428 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 2: we going to get a decision? How do you feel 429 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: about it? So? I do think you know, this is 430 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 2: I would say, one of the most important cases in 431 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: Indian country and probably the last twenty years or so, 432 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: and definitely for the Muscogie Creek Nation. 433 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: So how does the Attorney General of Muscogee Creek Nation 434 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: feel about it? 435 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: I'm very optimistic and hopeful that the Court will confirm 436 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 2: the decision of the Tenth Circuit. 437 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: There are moments I really think we can win this too, 438 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: the law is on our side. 439 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: But then I stop and think about. 440 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: All the things stacked against the tribes in this case. 441 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: It's not just our abysmal record at the Supreme Court 442 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: or which justices are against us. There are also some 443 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: very powerful groups who don't want Creek Nation to win, 444 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: who don't want our reservations to be recognized. And then 445 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: there's Lisa Blatt Oklahoma's lawyer who argues that our reservations 446 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: don't even exist. Next time on this Land. This Land 447 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: is written and hosted by me Rebecca Nagel, citizen of 448 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, from Cricket Media. Mukta Mohan and Tanya Solminator 449 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: are the executive producers. From Neon Humm Media. Gabriel Lewis 450 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: is our producer, Catherine Saint Louis is our editor, and 451 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: Jonathan Hirsch and vickrim Patel are the executive producers. Sound 452 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: design and mixing by Vanessa Lowe. Natalie Wrenn is our researcher. 453 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: Our theme song is composed by Jared Tate, citizen of 454 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: Chickasaw Nation. Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions podcast. Art 455 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: by k Helly Gonzales, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Additional production 456 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: support from fire Thief Productions including Nathan Young, citizen of 457 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: Delaware Tribe of Indians and Cherokee Nation, Jeremy Charles, citizen 458 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: of Cherokee Nation, Shane Brown, citizen of Cherokee Nation, and 459 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: Melissa Lukenbo. Special thanks to Kyle Lee, citizen of Muskogee 460 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 3: Creek Nation for his help with this episode.