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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie john Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Maga, Mike Johnson's wife took down

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Speaker 1: her website that compared homosexuality to beast reality and incest.

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Speaker 1: We have such a fascinating show. Today, author Naomi Klein

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Speaker 1: talks to us about her new book, Doppelganger, and we

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Speaker 1: get into a real talk about her doppelganger, Naomi Wolf,

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Speaker 1: and you get to hear.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of weird personal stuff for me.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to author Catherine Stewart about Christian fascism

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Speaker 1: in America as it's become newly relevant with the rise

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Speaker 1: of our new speaker of the House, Mega Mike Johnson.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the.

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Speaker 1: Host of the Think Like an Economist podcast, University of Michigan,

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Speaker 1: professor my friend and yours, Justin Wolfer's.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Justin, Molly, I thought we agreed it was called fust economics.

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Speaker 1: Now, that's right, the wildly scintillating topic of economics all

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Speaker 1: day long.

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Speaker 3: That's what my household's like.

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Speaker 1: Because Friday we have this incredible economic news which completely disappeared.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain to.

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Speaker 1: Our listeners what the numbers on Friday that were released

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Speaker 1: were and what they mean?

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Speaker 3: Great, So what happened on Friday was the government released

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Speaker 3: the latest estimate of GDP gross domestic product, which sounds terribly,

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Speaker 3: terribly boring. You can imagine gross domestic product is being well,

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Speaker 3: how much stuff we produce, which still sounds quite boring.

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Speaker 3: I teach my students in economics one at one GDP

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Speaker 3: per capita. That is, if GDP is the size of

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Speaker 3: the pie, GDP per capita is the size of the

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Speaker 3: average slice has another name. The other name for it

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Speaker 3: is average income. It's average income because the amount we

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Speaker 3: produce on average is also the same as if we

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Speaker 3: buy and sell everything we produce is the same as

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Speaker 3: the amount we spend. And if the dollars someone spends

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Speaker 3: as a dollar of income to someone else, And so

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Speaker 3: GDP's interesting. It's average income. And what we learned was

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Speaker 3: it in the third quarter average income grew at an

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Speaker 3: annual rate of four point nine percent, which sounds boring.

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Speaker 2: Again, it's crazy high, right.

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Speaker 3: It's hugely huge and highly high. Yes, it's a big number.

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Speaker 3: The economy normally grows at around two percent. If it's

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Speaker 3: a little sick at one percent, zero is a recession,

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Speaker 3: and four point nine is more than double two. It

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Speaker 3: was a Blockbunster quarter.

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Speaker 2: So does this mean we're not in recession?

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Speaker 3: I think the technical term for this is an anti recession.

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Speaker 1: So this was really unexpected. So can you explain why

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Speaker 1: and how and why?

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Speaker 3: Right? So, let me now try and make it sound

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Speaker 3: a little less interesting, and that's going to get us

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Speaker 3: closer to the truth. It's almost always the case for

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Speaker 3: any economic statistic if it sounds unusually high or in

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Speaker 3: usually low, that's because in reality we don't know what's

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Speaker 3: happening in the economy. All we have is imperfect measurements,

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Speaker 3: and so when you see a crazy number, that likely

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Speaker 3: tells you that the measurements particularly imperfect. Right now, So,

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Speaker 3: do I believe that the economy was flying off the

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Speaker 3: hand or recently?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: Do I believe that it's going extraordinarily well through twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, twenty twenty two, and twenty twenty three. Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: And then do you want to take a little bit

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Speaker 3: of signal from the fact that the Q three number

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Speaker 3: the third quarter of the year was particularly good? Sure,

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Speaker 3: it says right now things are going great, and so

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Speaker 3: the recession that everyone promised you in the second half

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty three, it's not happening.

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Speaker 1: So let's sort of go a little further with this

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Speaker 1: why again. I'm going to ask you a question which

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Speaker 1: is like the question that has stumped everyone. Why do

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Speaker 1: Americans feel the economy is bad even if it is good?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so Molly, I'm going to give you two answers.

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Speaker 3: So my answer, and then what I want to do

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Speaker 3: in three minutes is I want you to say, Pete,

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Speaker 3: what's Betsy's answer? I bet that's more compelling.

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Speaker 2: Okay, who's Betsy.

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Speaker 3: Betsy is Betsy Stevenson, my better half, who was also

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Speaker 3: one of President Obama's economic advisors. So what's going on?

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Speaker 3: I think people aren't actually that miserable. Let's start with

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Speaker 3: where's the evidence that people are miserable? First of all,

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Speaker 3: it all comes from public opinion.

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Speaker 2: Polls, right.

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Speaker 3: And if I ask you what is the state of

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Speaker 3: the economy, and you're in a highly polarized world, I

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Speaker 3: think the question a lot of people here is do

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Speaker 3: you like the president? And that's why in a world

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Speaker 3: in which we've got the unemployment rate near a fifty

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Speaker 3: year low, in which GDP has never been higher, in

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Speaker 3: which inflation is falling. You have a remarkable number of

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Speaker 3: Republicans saying the economy is horrible. Now do I believe that?

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Speaker 3: If you ask them instead, hey, how are your personal finances,

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Speaker 3: they're like, oh, pretty good. Actually, we say is it

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Speaker 3: easy to find a job these days? They're like, oh, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 3: but the economy is terrible. Here's that's the problem. If

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Speaker 3: you want to find out the state of the economy, Molly,

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Speaker 3: you made a choice. You thought, I know what I'm

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Speaker 3: going to do. I'm going to call an economist because

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Speaker 3: they study the economy. Right, If you want to find

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Speaker 3: out the state of someone's personal finances, or people's personal finances,

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Speaker 3: you should call people because they know a lot about that.

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Speaker 3: But you, in your everyday life, your listener is in

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Speaker 3: one of hundreds of cities right now in the United States,

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Speaker 3: working in one of dozens of industries, in one of

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Speaker 3: hundreds of occupations for one of millions of companies. No

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Speaker 3: matter how many stores you walk past in the day,

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Speaker 3: you're seeing a tiny slice of the whole. You know nothing.

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Speaker 3: The only way we'd figure out what's going with on

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Speaker 3: with the economies by running surveys across the whole economy

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Speaker 3: of how much people are spending and making and things

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Speaker 3: like that. And when we do that, we find really

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Speaker 3: strong numbers. And the other thing to remember is remember

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Speaker 3: only around two or three percent of the population and

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Speaker 3: responding to public opinion polls these days, think what sort

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Speaker 3: of savage would answer their cell phone to talk to

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Speaker 3: a pole start yes, and it's got to be some

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Speaker 3: with a.

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Speaker 5: Story to tell and an acts to grind, exactly.

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Speaker 3: So there's a whole lot of access being ground being

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Speaker 3: called public opinion, but it's actually minority access being ground.

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Speaker 3: So I have a different approach to this. If I

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Speaker 3: want to know how people out there feel about the economy,

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Speaker 3: it's impossible with current polling technology to talk to all

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Speaker 3: of them. So what I'm going to do instead is

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Speaker 3: I'm going to watch what they do now. If the economy.

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Speaker 3: If you were really pessimistic about the state of the economy,

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Speaker 3: if you thought it sucks right now and it's going

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Speaker 3: to be terrible in the future, and you're worried you're

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Speaker 3: going to lose to the job, the first thing you're

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Speaker 3: going to do is cut back on spending. You're going

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Speaker 3: to put as much as you can away in that

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Speaker 3: rainy day fund for the terrible times. You're sure just

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Speaker 3: around the corner. I just want you to stick with me, Molly.

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Speaker 3: No one's doing that. What they're doing is they're spending

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Speaker 3: as if they believe not only the economy is strong today,

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Speaker 3: but they think it'll be strong tomorrow and the next day.

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Speaker 3: And it's not just consumers that are spending, which is

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Speaker 3: self perpetuating too. Absolutely, businesses are investing. And I want

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Speaker 3: to tell you the big, untold story. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: been an enormous burst of entrepreneurship over the last few

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Speaker 3: years that we've never seen more new businesses being started.

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Speaker 3: And these are real businesses that are going to employ

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Speaker 3: people at rates we've simply never seen before. That is

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Speaker 3: an enormous vote of confidence. So people are making choices

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Speaker 3: as if they believe the economy is strong.

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Speaker 2: But here's my question for you.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think that with these interest rates going up,

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Speaker 1: it costs more to service debt, So your mortgage rates,

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Speaker 1: if you have an adjustable rate mortgage, go up, your

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Speaker 1: credit card rate, those things go up, so it costs

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Speaker 1: more to service debt.

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Speaker 2: So isn't that reflected in GDP.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And so there's two sides to a coin. The

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Speaker 3: thing is, high interest rates suck when you're borrowing money,

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Speaker 3: But who are you borrowing from the bank?

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Speaker 2: The country?

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Speaker 3: Where's the bank and its money from people who save.

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Speaker 3: So there's two types of people in the American economy.

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Speaker 3: There's savers and borrowers. Now, the savers are usually in

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Speaker 3: the second half of their career, and the borrowers are

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Speaker 3: usually those trying to get a mortgage. But the point

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Speaker 3: is high interest rate hurt the borrower just as much

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Speaker 3: as they help the lender. And the lender is not

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Speaker 3: an anonymous bank. The lender is a person who put

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Speaker 3: their money in the bank, and so it has a

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Speaker 3: huge redistributional effect. So of course home buyers are really

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Speaker 3: really upset right now, but homeowners who are stashing their

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Speaker 3: extra money in the bank are actually kind of happy.

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Speaker 1: But what about like the American government, which has quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of debt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we worry about them quite a bit, just curious.

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Speaker 3: So that's a different issue. This now is the issue

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Speaker 3: of government debt. The government ows a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: and anyone, whether it's a family or the government, when

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Speaker 3: instrates go up, it becomes a little harder because the

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Speaker 3: monthly payments go up, and so you either go into

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Speaker 3: more debt or you tighten your belt. Many families who

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Speaker 3: owe money are tightening their belts and the government instead

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Speaker 3: is going further in debt. And the big macroeconomic question

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Speaker 3: is is this sustainable? And one answer is for the

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Speaker 3: moment sort of kind of yes. By the way, one

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Speaker 3: way to make debts much easier to repay is if

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Speaker 3: you figure out a way to get a pay rise,

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Speaker 3: because then it's easy to service your mortgage. Well, the

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Speaker 3: same thing goes for countries, which is, if we can

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Speaker 3: increase our economic growth rate, we're back to GDP growing

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Speaker 3: at four point nine percent. The debt doesn't go away,

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Speaker 3: becomes small relative to your income, so it becomes less

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Speaker 3: of a problem. So if we can maintain robust economic growth,

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Speaker 3: that might help reduce some of the concerns we have

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Speaker 3: about the debt.

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Speaker 1: So now I'm going to pivot to asking you something

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Speaker 1: quite stupid, but you'll find it funny or interesting or

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Speaker 1: you'll explain it to us. So have a new Speaker

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Speaker 1: of the House.

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Speaker 2: His name is Mike Johnson. We call him Maga Mike.

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Speaker 1: He has decided that in order to pay for the

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Speaker 1: aid to Israel, he is going to make cuts to

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Speaker 1: the irs. Explain to us why he is not two

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Speaker 1: and three dimensional chassis.

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Speaker 3: This is like a family struggling to get by with

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Speaker 3: two kids deciding that what they're going to do is

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Speaker 3: cut out condoms from the family budget that will save money.

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Speaker 3: It ain't gonna work. The thing is the irs. They're

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Speaker 3: the guys who collect taxes. We give the irs less money,

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Speaker 3: they collect less taxes. We actually lose. The government loses

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Speaker 3: money by doing this. So what you learned from this is,

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Speaker 3: I just by the way, Mike Johnson knows this what

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Speaker 3: this is, and this isn't like all.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we know he knows this because he asks

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Speaker 1: the CBO not to score it right.

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Speaker 3: And I want to explain that to your listeners. Normally,

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Speaker 3: when you come up with a bill, you say to

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Speaker 3: the independent schoolkeeper, hey, could you tell Congress how much

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Speaker 3: this will save?

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Speaker 2: In the Congressional Budget Office.

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Speaker 3: Right, the Congressional Budget they're non part is and totally serious,

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Speaker 3: wants up to their eyeballs and Excel spreadsheets, and you

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Speaker 3: normally say, hey, could you tell Congress how much this

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Speaker 3: will save? And then they run it through their computers

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Speaker 3: and they tell Congress, oh, you'll save this many billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: Johnson says, I don't want to know.

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Speaker 2: We're going to say so much. Let's not tell anyone.

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Speaker 3: And every time I hear that, I kind of like, no,

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Speaker 3: you really really know? Now. The thing I want your

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Speaker 3: listeners to know more about and to actually be angry about,

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Speaker 3: is he also knows who saves when the IRS doesn't

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Speaker 3: have resources. Most of your listeners have fairly simple tax returns.

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Speaker 3: They feel complicated, but as far as the IRS is concerned,

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Speaker 3: they're pretty simple and they don't need a lot of

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Speaker 3: tax cops to make sure that you and I are

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Speaker 3: paying our taxes. But these rich guys, with their four

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Speaker 3: foot higher tax returns, they're the guys who aren't going

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Speaker 3: to get audited, and so they're the guys who have

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Speaker 3: got these very sophisticated, barely legal, maybe illegal schemes. And

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Speaker 3: when there are a fewer tax police out there, it's

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Speaker 3: effectively saying to those guys, here's a tax cut. Let's

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Speaker 3: be clear who those guys are. It's not just they're rich,

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Speaker 3: it's their.

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Speaker 2: Crooks, right, people like Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. This is like Mike Johnson saying, my first act

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Speaker 3: is a tax cut. I think the American people deserve

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Speaker 3: a tax cut. And I'm like, oh, I can imagine

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Speaker 3: the print Republicans saying that which people rich tax cheats?

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Speaker 3: You should be outraged. Even a centrist Republican should be outraged.

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Speaker 3: They should want to give tax breaks to small businesses,

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Speaker 3: or it's at the middle class, or even to the rich.

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Speaker 3: But the rich cheats. You see they're targeting. It's insane.

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Speaker 2: It's the leader of their party in his defense.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, is this bad faith or worse faith? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: someone in his office is like, oh, here's a hilarious trick.

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Speaker 3: And what we'll do is we'll earn the Libs because

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Speaker 3: they'll turn up on their lift wing podcasts and complain

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Speaker 3: about it. And I guess we're all owned. But like,

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Speaker 3: what a stupid, transparent, childish gimmick. But I can tell

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Speaker 3: you what I really think. You tell me it sucks.

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Speaker 1: Let's get sort of further with this. So ultimately, the

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Speaker 1: idea of cutting IRS enforcement costs the American people money.

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Speaker 1: The American TAXI.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you and me, it's not abstract. It's not the government.

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Speaker 3: When a rich tax cheat doesn't pay a dollar. If

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Speaker 3: the dollar is going to get spent anyway, you and

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Speaker 3: I have to have to kick in for it.

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Speaker 1: So what numbers are you looking at now? All the numbers,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, what's coming down the pike?

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Speaker 3: What am I excited about right now?

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Speaker 2: Yes? What financial indicators are you excited about right now?

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Speaker 3: I want to tell you some of the stories that

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Speaker 3: aren't getting told. So, first story, extraordinary burst of entrepreneurship

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Speaker 3: right now. The rate at which we're seeing new businesses

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Speaker 3: form is something you've never seen before. The rate at

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Speaker 3: which people are becoming self employed or starting businesses and

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Speaker 3: employing others you've never seen before. The rate at which

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Speaker 3: people are leaving bad jobs for good jobs and better

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Speaker 3: careers is at an historically high rate. So this is

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Speaker 3: just an extraordinary story that the administrations yet to tell.

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Speaker 3: But you can see it in your communities, and you

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Speaker 3: can see new businesses for me, and you can see

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Speaker 3: people walking into better careers. So that's story number one.

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Speaker 3: Story number two, we've seen fantastic economic growth. We've seen

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Speaker 3: unemployment at a fifty year low. We've seen the economy

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Speaker 3: growing at rates we have not seen in a long,

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Speaker 3: long time. Here's an amazing fact about the state of

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Speaker 3: the economy in twenty nineteen. You could have said, you

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Speaker 3: could have done what I do and looked up the

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Speaker 3: latest forecast for where will the economy be in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three, and you would you'd write that number down,

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Speaker 3: and then if you fell asleep for three years, literally

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Speaker 3: just fell asleep, and then you woke up. The first

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Speaker 3: thing I do upon waking up and say, can you

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Speaker 3: show me the latest economic indicators? And the economy today

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Speaker 3: is higher than people would have expected it to be

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, So you would say, oh, did I

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Speaker 3: miss something while I was sleeping. People would say yes,

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Speaker 3: and you say, well, I'm guessing that I missed good

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Speaker 3: news because the economy is doing better than we anticipated

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Speaker 3: before I fell asleep. So we've not only recovered from

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Speaker 3: the global pandemic and recession, we're stronger that we anticipated

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Speaker 3: being even if there'd never been one. That's an extraordinary story. Now,

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Speaker 3: the third story I want to tell you is people say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: great economic growth, but of course this is all going

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Speaker 3: to feed the rich and the oligarchs. You and the

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Speaker 3: little guy never gets anything. This is the first time

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Speaker 3: in my lifetime in which I've seen inequality decline. So

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Speaker 3: wage risers are strongest for those who need it most

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Speaker 3: for the first time in my lifetime. And so in fact,

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Speaker 3: this is an economic recovery that's lifting everyone up, and

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Speaker 3: it's particularly lifting a working class up to a degree

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Speaker 3: that we're entirely unused to. Not only that, we've seen

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Speaker 3: wealth grow over the last three years faster than any

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Speaker 3: other three year period, and we've seen inequality of wealth

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Speaker 3: decline as working in middle class people have started to

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Speaker 3: accumulate wealth, they're starting to own stocks, and they're starting

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Speaker 3: to own small businesses at much higher rates than we

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Speaker 3: were pre pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we have just two minutes.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk about labor union strikes and

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Speaker 1: why what happened with the auto workers and what that

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Speaker 1: means for the economy and for wealth inequality.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm going to disappoint many of your listeners here.

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Speaker 3: The story here might be smaller than your hope.

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Speaker 2: It's still a win.

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Speaker 3: It's a win. So let's just go back. We want

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Speaker 3: to get the main facts out, which is right now,

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Speaker 3: about six or seven percent of the US private sect

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Speaker 3: the labor forces unionized, So unions are a very small

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Speaker 3: part of this country. That's still true. We saw the

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Speaker 3: UAW stand up, and it looked like and you know,

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Speaker 3: that was just after the screenwriters and the actors, and

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Speaker 3: so it looked like a huge spike in the extent

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Speaker 3: of industrial activity of striking. But actually it turns out

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Speaker 3: most of the actors who are on strike wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been working anyway. That's the way acting works. And so

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Speaker 3: the statistics, when you put it in sort of a

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Speaker 3: broader context, the US still has enormously lower strike activity

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Speaker 3: than most industrialized countries, and the recent uptick has barely

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Speaker 3: notice Now having said that, what the auto workers got

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Speaker 3: was a real important, substantial raise. In fact, they've done

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Speaker 3: so well, I won't call them working class, they're our

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Speaker 3: middle class workers. Is it something that others can replicate?

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure. One thing to be aware of, though,

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Speaker 3: is that they were kind of owed something.

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Speaker 2: Right because they gave up. Can you talk about.

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Speaker 3: That when the auto is tanked after the last big downturn,

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Speaker 3: they were basically tiled everything shutting down unless you guys

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Speaker 3: give us a lot back, And so they did. But

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Speaker 3: actually this is true across the unionized workforce more generally.

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Speaker 3: Remember the last three years post pandemic, we had that

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Speaker 3: big run up in inflation, and that caused a lot

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Speaker 3: of people to get wage rises. Well, unfortunately for the

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Speaker 3: auto workers, they were covered through that entire time by

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Speaker 3: a long term contract, and it was a long term

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Speaker 3: contract where they'd finally dropped cost of living adjustments. And

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Speaker 3: so what we've actually seen over the last three years

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Speaker 3: is that non unionized workers unusually got faster pay rises

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Speaker 3: than unionized workers. Union guys fell behind because they had

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Speaker 3: long term contracts and haven't been able to get the

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Speaker 3: extra pay rise that many of your listeners have been getting.

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Speaker 3: And so I suspect we're going to see a bunch

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Speaker 3: more stories that look like the UAW, which is unions

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Speaker 3: getting larger wage rises. But I want you to realize

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Speaker 3: that some of it says catching up, and it's catching

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Speaker 3: up because those guys fell behind more than most of

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Speaker 3: the rest of us did.

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Speaker 2: So interesting justin well, first, I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 3: Oh wise, Molly, I love Token economics with you, and

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Speaker 3: I love you listeners, And you.

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Speaker 1: Have such a cute friendship with Mac Greenfield, my long

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Speaker 1: suffering spems.

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Speaker 3: He is quite quite quite wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Naomi Klein is the author of Double Ganger.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Past Politics, Naomi.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Lilly.

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Speaker 5: I've been looking forward to this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm such a fan of yours, and I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited to have you here to talk about this book,

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Speaker 1: Double Ganger. I want you to first just just a

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Speaker 1: little bit about like how you got here to write

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Speaker 1: this book, because books like this, I mean, there's usually

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Speaker 1: a thought process that goes into how you kind of

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Speaker 1: decide this or did you just sort of happens into it?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there were a couple of reasons why I wrote

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Speaker 6: this book, which is not my usual type of book.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think all your listeners are familiar

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Speaker 6: with my work, but I do tend to write more

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Speaker 6: conventional nonfiction books that and this is more or creative.

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Speaker 2: This is more like a memoir.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's more more, more creative nonfiction. It's a tragic,

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Speaker 6: comic memoir. But the form itself is a little bit

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Speaker 6: of an experiment because I use the fact that I

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Speaker 6: have a doppelganger that I have been perennially confused and

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Speaker 6: conflated with another Naomi nonfiction writer, your old friend Naomi Wolf. Well,

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Speaker 6: but a friend of my mine, but yes, I want

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Speaker 6: to hear all the stories.

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Speaker 2: And someone I knew from my youth.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So before I decided to write this book, I

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Speaker 6: decided that I wanted to write in another way. So

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Speaker 6: during the pandemic, I made this decision that I had time,

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Speaker 6: for the first time in twenty five years, to take

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Speaker 6: a writing course.

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Speaker 2: So that's the context that's really cool.

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Speaker 6: Like everyone else, I was grounded. I had a book tour, canceled,

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Speaker 6: all kinds of events, and so I was kind of

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Speaker 6: stuck at home and feeling a little bit speechless like

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Speaker 6: many of us were. And I had this idea that

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Speaker 6: maybe I could sign up for an online writing course,

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Speaker 6: because a lot of the writing schools were offering, like

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Speaker 6: IOWA was offering online courses. Even though I've written for

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Speaker 6: all my adult life, I never had actually taken a

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Speaker 6: course before. I didn't end up enrolling in one of

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Speaker 6: those courses, but I did end up hiring a writing coach,

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Speaker 6: a writing teacher named Harriet Clark who taught creative writing

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Speaker 6: at Stanford, and we were just kind of playing with

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Speaker 6: form and doing all these little writing exercises, and I

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Speaker 6: was feeling like I wasn't sure what I was going

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Speaker 6: to do. I was actually thinking I might even try

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Speaker 6: my hand at fiction. We were just sort of playing.

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Speaker 6: But at the same time, the identity confusion that I

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Speaker 6: was experiencing with Naomi Wolf was really accelerating because she

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Speaker 6: was becoming this vector of medical misinformation, and she was

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Speaker 6: saying things that sort of reminded people of the structure

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Speaker 6: of the argument in my book, The Shock Doctrine, which

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Speaker 6: was about exploitation of disasters, and she was claiming that

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Speaker 6: COVID was a grand conspiracy and so on and so on,

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Speaker 6: and so at a certain point it just occurred to me, well,

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Speaker 6: maybe this is the creative writing I should be doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: maybe I could use this to play with form in

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Speaker 6: a way that I hadn't before. Originally, it was just

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Speaker 6: going to be an essay. I was thinking maybe I'd

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Speaker 6: pitch it to The New Yorker or something like that.

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Speaker 6: But then her political trajectory just got more and more extreme, right,

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Speaker 6: she became more of a star on Steve Bannon's show

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Speaker 6: and Tucker Carlson's, and so she became more of a

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Speaker 6: white rabbit to lead me into this rabbit hole of

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Speaker 6: conspiracy theory. So that's when it started growing, and plus

437
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 6: conspiracy culture started impacting our lives in every possible way,

438
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 6: I would argue, So that's how it turned into this.

439
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 6: I don't want to call it a beast of a book.

440
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 6: It's not my usual fare. It's something a little more

441
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 6: playful and strange.

442
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 1: Being playful and strange, it's so interesting because it's like,

443
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: I think of myself as young. I am not, but

444
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,719
Speaker 1: you know, I've been around since the nineties, and you know,

445
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: careers just sort of they sometimes vow and Naomi Wolf

446
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: had a really interesting and I would say, pretty terrifying evolution.

447
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 2: It's a two part thing, right.

448
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: There's a lot of this misinformation disinformation, but then there's

449
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: also everybody's moving really fast. Yeah, so nobody takes the

450
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 1: time to like check your last name.

451
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, this is the thing is I use

452
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 6: the fact that I have this doppelganger, and I have

453
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 6: to admit that I do because so many people confuse

454
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 6: me with her, to look at other ways that we

455
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 6: double ourselves, Right, Like a doppelganger is this idea that

456
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 6: there's another you out there in the world that you

457
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 6: could bump into at any time.

458
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 5: Right, I personally don't see.

459
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 6: Myself when I look at her enough other people have

460
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 6: that it's forced me to think about this, right, because

461
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 6: in literature, doppelgangers are always a message. They're always sort

462
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 6: of tugging at you, telling you to pay attention to something.

463
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 6: They're a harbinger, They're of doom if you don't pay attention.

464
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,160
Speaker 6: So I started paying attention to the phenomenon of doubling.

465
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 6: But it made me realize that all of us who

466
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 6: maintain an avatar online, you know, an image of ourselves,

467
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 6: a brand, if you will, are kind of deliberately creating

468
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 6: a double of ourselves. I don't know what your relationship

469
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 6: is with the X version of you or the Instagram

470
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 6: version of you, but I mean it's probably not really you,

471
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 6: Like I don't know you, but I sort of feel

472
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 6: like I know you. But do I know you because

473
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 6: I follow you on social media.

474
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: So I have this interesting pathology which I don't think

475
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: most people have, which is that because my mother wrote

476
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: about me my whole life, I became like a little

477
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: bit crazy, and so I don't have that same kind

478
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: of expectation of privacy that normal people have. And so

479
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: it made me good at public facing discourse in a

480
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: way that I think I would otherwise not be because

481
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: I had that sort of paranoid fantasy you was happening anyway.

482
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 6: So does that mean that you feel like the person

483
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 6: that we see online really is you, Like you're at

484
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 6: ease enough with the idea of a public self that

485
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 6: that is just you.

486
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: I would say, yes, it's not because I'm great by

487
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: any stretchy imagination in any way. It's more because like

488
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: this was the way I was able to like survive

489
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: my childhood because like my old childhood, people come up

490
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: to me and they'd be like, where's your twin and

491
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: I'd be like, no, I don't have a twin, and

492
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: they'd be like no, no, your mother has you as twins,

493
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: or like I couldn't find it. But like my mother

494
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: wrote about me getting my period, it was like genuinely

495
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: the most horrifying thing of my life. But it like

496
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: it was like I went through the matrix and I

497
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: never came back.

498
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, like you either are swallowed up by shame or

499
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 6: you just go with it. I mean I had to say, like,

500
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 6: this is a larger conversation than maybe you and I

501
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 6: can have over a drink sometime. Because my mom was

502
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 6: also a second wave feminist who also used me as

503
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 6: material and as a sort of narrative device and like

504
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 6: one of the forms of doubling that I look at.

505
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 6: My mom's a documentary filmmaker, not a writer, although she

506
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 6: she has written books. But yeah, it was very humiliating

507
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 6: for me as a kid, and it really shaped my personality.

508
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 6: For me, it went in the opposite direction. I became

509
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 6: extremely self conscious and pretty kind of repressed. Like my books,

510
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 6: like previous books have had almost nothing of me and

511
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 6: them really you know, no logo had a little bit.

512
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 5: But I think that.

513
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 6: I worked very hard to protect like the parts of

514
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 6: myself that I would consider personal from the public eye.

515
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 6: That is why having Naomi wolf Is a doppelganger was

516
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 6: a particular kind of mind fuck. Like you know, she

517
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 6: wrote a book called Vagina a Biography, which if you know,

518
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 6: if you were to like cook up a doppelganger in

519
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 6: a lab that was expressly designed to like trigger my

520
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 6: particular repressive neuroses, like that would be it. It would

521
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 6: be like writing a book called Vagina a Biography and

522
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 6: also making major factual errors that get exposed live on

523
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 6: the BB see in another book like these are the

524
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 6: things that but so I'm grateful to her in a

525
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 6: weird way because I feel like self consciousness is a

526
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 6: kind of narcissism, right, like, because you are still imagining

527
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 6: that people care more than they really do about you,

528
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 6: which if you've had some of those shaming experiences as

529
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 6: a child where people really did care more about you

530
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 6: than they should, it inculcates it very early, this idea

531
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 6: that people are watching you, right, So you can either

532
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 6: perform for the watchers or you can hide from them.

533
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 6: But either way, your sense of self is inflated.

534
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 3: Right.

535
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 6: And so the thing about having a Doppelganger gone wild

536
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 6: is that it forces you to confront the reality that

537
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 6: you can't control any of this. And so that's why

538
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 6: at the end of the book I say that I've

539
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 6: come to embrace my doppelganger is an unconventional form of

540
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 6: Buddhism and non attachment to the self, and like, we

541
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 6: may as well get over ourselves and and find one

542
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 6: another and build collective power. But the other thing I

543
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 6: was just gonna say about all that that another form

544
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 6: of doubling that I look at in the book is

545
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 6: the way people treat their kids as doubles of themselves,

546
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 6: as extensions of themselves.

547
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: And you write a lot about your kid, you know, I.

548
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 6: Actually write very little about him. I write about this

549
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 6: phenomenon because in investigating kind of some of the roots

550
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 6: of modern day conspiracy culture, some of what we're seeing

551
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 6: now is partially because the groundwork was laid by the

552
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 6: autism misinformation world. Yeah, particularly the myth of a link

553
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 6: between childhood vaccines and autism. And because I have a

554
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 6: neuroatypical child, I have been exposed to autism parent world

555
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 6: in ways that have been very distressing. I've met a

556
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 6: lot of parents who are obsessed with kind of curing

557
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 6: the autism in their children and are always looking for scapegoats.

558
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 6: And I think that part of it is this idea

559
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 6: that they're owed a child who is a doppelganger of them,

560
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 6: a double of them. And I think that this idea

561
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 6: that we have a right to treat our children has

562
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 6: public facing material in our books and films. Honestly, I

563
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 6: don't think we do. You know, I don't think my

564
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 6: mom had a right to do that to me. I

565
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 6: don't think your mom had a right to do it

566
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 6: to you. And I don't do it to my child.

567
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 6: I think he has a right to privacy to decide

568
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 6: what to share. But I decided that I did have

569
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 6: a right to write about the batshit parents I found

570
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 6: in that world. But as far as his inner life goes,

571
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 6: that's up to him whether he decides to share it.

572
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I generally agree with you, though I did write

573
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: his piece for the Washington Post, not washingt bus for

574
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal ATBED before I went to war

575
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: with them spiritually anyway, about how I had a kid

576
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: who was whatever, who had disease and I almost had

577
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: to have a second trimester abortion, and my kids all

578
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 1: were like, remember when you wrote that piece about how

579
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: you wanted to abort Max, And I was like, that

580
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: is not what that mes. Sad, but you know, teenagers,

581
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: you can't can't live with them.

582
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 5: That's the thing about kids is they do grow up.

583
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 5: You know, they did out.

584
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 6: Yeah you Honestly, I think there really is this idea

585
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 6: as parents where you're like, oh, just because they don't

586
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 6: understand this now, they never will.

587
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 5: It's like, we must all engage with the concept of aging.

588
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Steve Bannon.

589
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 5: Let's just turn this into a parenting podcast.

590
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: And let's talk about I interviewed doctor Hotez and Texas

591
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: trip and like, I mean, there's so much hostility towards doctors.

592
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: But I want to talk to you about Steve Bannon

593
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: because I do think Steve Banner is such an important

594
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle.

595
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, and it's super related too, because you know

596
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 6: what I write about in the book is we know

597
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 6: why Wolfe was interested in him, right, he had a

598
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 6: huge platform. She had basically been canceled in liberal and

599
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 6: left circles because she'd made so many errors.

600
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: This was her second chance in a way.

601
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 6: She got everything she lost and more because when that

602
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 6: world opened up to her, when she started talking about

603
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 6: Biden as using COVID to stage an authoritarian coup and

604
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 6: bring a Chinese style social credit system to the West,

605
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 6: which is really when she took her star turn and started.

606
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 7: Incredible stuff, Yes, continue, very good stuff. Deca Carlson became

607
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 7: a huge fan, so did Steve Bannon. And you know

608
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 7: what they liked about her was that she was this

609
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 7: ex Democrat, right, I mean or claiming to still be

610
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 7: a Democrat. But the Democrats had betrayed her, right, and

611
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 7: so there was there would always be this big wind

612
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 7: up of like listing all of her liberal credentials every

613
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 7: time she.

614
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 5: Would go in one of their shows, because she was proof.

615
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 6: In their minds that what they were doing was not

616
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 6: just the usual right wing thing. So there was something

617
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 6: so important about their project that it was postpartisan, right.

618
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 6: That's part of the narrative of what's going on now.

619
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 6: And so it's obvious why they wanted her to come

620
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 6: on and trash Biden, like any ex leftist or ex

621
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 6: liberal who wanted to do that would have been welcome

622
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 6: to do so, and lots of them have. But what

623
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 6: is she getting out of them?

624
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: Right?

625
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 6: And you know, she's getting everything that she lost and

626
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 6: more in terms of audience, book sales, subscriptions for her website, substack,

627
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 6: et cetera. But Bannon is doing more than just getting

628
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 6: an ex liberal on his team. At one point he

629
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 6: said that she was one of his top contestants for

630
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 6: Women of the Year. I don't maybe I didn't know

631
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 6: he had a Woman of the Year, but apparently he does.

632
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: It's ironic.

633
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: At one point, is ironic.

634
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 6: At one point he said that, you know, all these

635
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 6: moms are listening to doctor Naomi wolf right, and he

636
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 6: saw her as a kind of mom in chief precisely

637
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 6: because she was this prominent feminist. When she started talking

638
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 6: about vaccines and masks as a kind of child abuse,

639
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 6: then it played into this broader narrative that was going

640
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 6: on on the right about how schools were abusing children

641
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 6: with teaching them about their country's history or having all

642
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 6: gender bathrooms turning them trends. So the whole narrative that

643
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 6: she's a part of on the right is really about

644
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 6: the child as property. It's about this idea of like,

645
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 6: our kids are extensions of ourselves, and we get to

646
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 6: control every single thing about them, their bodies and their minds,

647
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 6: and they are us. So it is related to what

648
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 6: we're talking about about what do we think children are,

649
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 6: you know, like are they property or are they independent

650
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 6: beings that we clothe and feed and try to keep

651
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 6: safe for a few years?

652
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: Right, I mean that is a really good point. I

653
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: mean it also is like a play for homeschooling and

654
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: trying to dismantle public education. I mean, they have so

655
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: many different priorities, all of which dovetail I feel.

656
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 5: Like one hundred percent.

657
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 6: And you know, this is where I've done a lot

658
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 6: of research about attacks on public education in the aftermath

659
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 6: of disasters, which I started following after Hurricane Katrina, when

660
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 6: very soon after the city was flooded and while it

661
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 6: was still under evacuation, Milton Friedman wrote an article in

662
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 6: The Wall Street Journal saying, this is a tragedy, it's

663
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 6: also an opportunity, an opportunity to remake New Orleans school system.

664
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: That's so dark, so dark.

665
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: By the way, I am again laughing, not because it's funny,

666
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: but because here are all these people who died and

667
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: drowned and suffered, and Milton Freeman is saying, we can

668
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: now recreate the education system.

669
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 6: Continue sorry, And they did, and New Orleans became the

670
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 6: most privatized school system in the US in that all

671
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 6: of these schools that were shut down after Katrina were

672
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 6: never reopened as public schools. Huge numbers of them were

673
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 6: reopened as charter schools. Their unionized teachers were fired and

674
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 6: then rehired for lower wages. So, you know, I covered

675
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 6: the same thing after Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico, where

676
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 6: there was literally a copycat invoking New Orleans to say,

677
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 6: this is the chance. You know, hundreds of schools were

678
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 6: closed and so on. So but COVID, there's this whist.

679
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 6: But I think you're absolutely right, that it's the same

680
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 6: old war on public education, but now it's using vaccines

681
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 6: and math mandates to delegitimize public schools, to delegitimize public teachers.

682
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 6: And once again the answer is vouchers, homeschooling, religious education,

683
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 6: and shorters. Yeah, same old play, but just with a

684
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 6: slight tweak in the same way that the anti vaxxers,

685
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 6: you know, had their arguments ready, but they just did

686
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 6: like a search and replace.

687
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: It's so dark, I mean, it's so incredibly dark.

688
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 6: I need to ask you because I've been looking forward

689
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 6: to this conversation because even you do know her, you

690
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 6: grew up around her, Like you know, I have this

691
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 6: little formula in the book, this fake math formula of

692
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 6: narcissism slash grandiosity plus social media addiction plus midlife crisis

693
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 6: divided by public shaming equals right wing meltdown. But I

694
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 6: want to ask you, does that resonate? Am I missing anything?

695
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: Like?

696
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 6: You actually know her better than I do. I met

697
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 6: her when I was in college, but let me interview her.

698
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, probably for the best. I mean, so I

699
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: only knew her when I was young. I know that

700
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: my mother was very fond of her for a little

701
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: while I think that's right, but I haven't seen her

702
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: in a long long time, so I don't really know,

703
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: but I certainly think it's very Fame is a very

704
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: hard thing to lose.

705
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 5: That's yeah, that's that's very true, and.

706
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: I've seen that firsthand in my family. That is incredibly

707
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: painful to think your quote unquote, and again I mean

708
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: this bear you know, with all of the caveats, to

709
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: feel that you matter and then to feel that you

710
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: don't matter. Obviously, none of this is really about mattering,

711
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: but because you really matter and you know when the

712
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: people around you, and not in what you know, whether

713
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: or not you're on television. But I saw with my

714
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: mother and my grandfather that is incredibly painful to lose fame,

715
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: especially if you have narcissistic tendencies. It's soul crushing for

716
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people. So I think that ultimately is

717
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: the net of it.

718
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

719
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 6: I have a quote in the book from Gorvidal. Some

720
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 6: people take to drink, others take to audiences, And I

721
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 6: think that not every person who has fame is necessarily

722
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 6: in it for the audiences. But if you really take

723
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 6: to your audiences, then social media is like an unlocked

724
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 6: liquor cabinet, right, Like, it's just like like we don't

725
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 6: know what we would know about Christopher Hitchens or Gorvidal

726
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 6: for that matter. You know, if they had had access

727
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 6: to these incredible tools any time of day or night,

728
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 6: you know, they didn't really you know that they missed that,

729
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 6: and they're probably we're all lucky for it.

730
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 5: Would I would hazard to guess.

731
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Naomi.

732
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 5: Thank you.

733
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 6: It's just the beginning of a longer conversation, I hope

734
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 6: down the road without a recorder.

735
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: Catherine Stewart is the author of The Power Worshippers Inside

736
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: the Dangerous Row of Religious Nationalism. Welcome to Fast Politics,

737
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: Catherine Stewart.

738
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: It's really good to be here. Thanks so much for

739
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: having me.

740
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Mollie, So I'm so excited to have you here because

741
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 1: you write about something very important. And also, just when

742
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: we saw speaker Mike Johnson elevated, the first thought Jesse

743
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: and I both had was this is Trump is a

744
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: met scale, but it's also Christian fascism. Can you talk

745
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: to us a little bit about what that is and

746
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: where it comes from.

747
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 4: Well, the real power behind the Republican Party today is

748
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 4: America's Christian nationalist movement. It's an anti democratic, authoritarian movement.

749
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 4: And Mike Johnson has built his entire career on obedience

750
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 4: to this movement and on service to this movement, and

751
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 4: he's going to be a Zellis crusader during his tenure

752
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 4: as speaker. You know, a lot of people have written

753
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: about some of his extremist positions, like his election denialism,

754
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 4: his climate denialism, his anti abortion extremism. But it's really

755
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 4: important to remember that these aren't just a laundry list

756
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 4: of bad ideas. They don't exist apart from one another.

757
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 4: They are part of the package of the Christian nationalist

758
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 4: movement and its anti democratic aims. So these kinds of

759
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: crazy positions are very typical of Christian Nationalism. They've sort

760
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 4: of come together as a package.

761
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: Could you sort of talk us through a little bit

762
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: about the history of this movement.

763
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 4: Well, the movement has really gained force over the past

764
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: five decades as movement leaders have invested in the infrastructure

765
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 4: of this movement. This is a leadership driven movement and

766
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: also an organization driven movement. Really started when a group

767
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 4: of leaders. In its current form started when a group

768
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 4: of leaders calling themselves the New Right felt the Republican

769
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 4: Party had become too soft, too soft done communism to liberal.

770
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 4: They felt like they were dependent on elevating the voices

771
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: of liberal theologians, and they really wanted to ignite hyper

772
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 4: conservative counter revolution. So we're talking about people like Paul Wyrick,

773
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 4: Philish Laughley, Howard Phillips, and others, and so they united

774
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 4: their movement. They knew that if you can get people

775
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 4: to vote on two or three issues, you can control

776
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 4: their vote. So they highlighted these cultural war issues like abortion,

777
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 4: which prior to the New Right, most Republican Protestants actually

778
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 4: supported abortion rights. Southern Baptist Convention actually passed resolutions affirming

779
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 4: support for liberalization of abortion laws.

780
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: This is called Christo fascism.

781
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 4: Well, I used terms like authoritarianism. If you look at

782
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 4: the authoritarian or the fascist checklist, does it reject democratic elections, Yes,

783
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: Does it want to impose minority rule on most Americans

784
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 4: and make them adhere to policies that they don't like. Yes, absolutely.

785
00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 4: It's a kind of strain of FA.

786
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: But it's steeped in a kind of Christianity and theocracy

787
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: that I think is really dangerous. And I mean the

788
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: thing I was struck by was when Mike Johnson was

789
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: asked about his worldview, he said, pick up a Bible.

790
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, you know what's really interesting about his worldview

791
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 4: is that he is a big admirer of David Barton,

792
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 4: who's the political propagandist who poses as a historian to

793
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 4: spread the distortions of like an alternate Christian nationalist history.

794
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: So for over three decades, David Barton has peddled this

795
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 4: falsification of the America's founding. His fall theories have been

796
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 4: thoroughly debunked over and over. But Johnson has said that

797
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 4: David Barton has had a profound influence. He said, quote

798
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 4: a profound influence on me and my work and my

799
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: life and everything I do. And Barton, in turn, has

800
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: celebrated Johnson's elevation as a turning point in the Christian right.

801
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 4: And Barton is a kind of key myth maker of

802
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: the Christian nationalist movement. And he's also extremely politically active.

803
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: And so when you hear what Johnson has to say,

804
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 4: you know, his rejection the separation of church and state,

805
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 4: he's basically parroting David Barton's talking points.

806
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: Right, I want you to explain to us these talking points.

807
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's a sort of return to a time

808
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: when women and people of color and LGBTQ had less rights, right,

809
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the fundamental issue.

810
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 4: He's actually praised what he calls eighteenth century values, right

811
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 4: when slavery was legal. So let's just you know, review

812
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 4: a few of his positions. He was instrumental in advancing

813
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump's attempted coup against the US government, and that's

814
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 4: really important because it shows, you know, he wasn't just

815
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 4: doing this for political expediency. He was reflecting a movement

816
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 4: that is explicitly anti democratic. Now, he wasn't just the

817
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 4: legal muscle for there's this Young Earth creationist outfit calls

818
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 4: answers in genesis. They believe the Earth was created what's

819
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 4: six thousand years old or something. He provided the legal

820
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 4: muscle for that outfit, But he didn't just do that.

821
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 4: He also blogged on the organization's website, and he spoke

822
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 4: at a conference they hosted in twenty twenty two. He

823
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: doesn't believe in human caused climate change, and he actually

824
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: opposes the development of the clean energy sector, which could

825
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 4: be a tremendous driver of economic growth, especially in Red States.

826
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 4: He's bashed democracy and his speeches he's literally said in

827
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 4: one of his speeches, we don't live in a democracy

828
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 4: and referred to democracy as some sort of chaotic thing

829
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 4: that you don't want. He's not a Seven Mountains dominionist.

830
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 4: You know what a demanionism is, right, the idea that

831
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: the right kinds of Christians, not all Christians, just the

832
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 4: right kinds should take over the key levers of government

833
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 4: and society. Now, he's actually not affiliated in any I

834
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 4: would say official sense with that movement, but he has

835
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 4: praised Seven Mountain Domanionists like Jim Garlow. He's spoken at

836
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 4: their events and their conferences, and he's referred to his

837
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 4: work in Congress as part of a quote spiritual battle.

838
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 4: So he uses the language of dominionism. He has blamed

839
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: gool shootings on birth control and abortion. I saw that

840
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 4: through that wonderful piece that you wrote for a fan,

841
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 4: you started to see Carmona. He's proposed cuts in social

842
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: security and Medicare and medicates so severe that they'll leave

843
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 4: millions of Americans in misery. And he's advocated for the

844
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 4: criminalization of gay sex. So the key point here is

845
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 4: really that all these positions, aren't They're just again not

846
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 4: like they don't just exist independent of one another. They're

847
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 4: all part of this package of extreme Christian nationalism.

848
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: I just am curious. So basically this is a continuation

849
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: of that.

850
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: Even though Trump is.

851
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 1: Rice married, adulter, or paid off a porn star, they

852
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: don't care because it gets them where they need to be,

853
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: and so they just will go along with anyone if

854
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: that person's wards their rights, their desires.

855
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 4: Trump remains the overwhelming favorite in the Republican field, and

856
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 4: what that's telling us, unfortunately, is that the republic electorate

857
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 4: is in love not just with one man, but with

858
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 4: the politics of hate and unreason that he represents. So

859
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 4: when you look down the list, also you've got people

860
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 4: like Ramaswami and DeSantis, and they're doing what they can

861
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 4: to be as trumpy as possible in order to elevate

862
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 4: their own careers. And given that Trump is the clear

863
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: GOP favorite, I think we can say that the party

864
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 4: has largely abandoned conservatism and is now refashioning itself as

865
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 4: a revolutionary party. I think the a sector of the

866
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 4: party doesn't even particularly care about solid governance. They really

867
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 4: want to blow up the system and take control of

868
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 4: whatever remains. Look at Matt Gates. He said something to

869
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 4: the effect of, look at Johnson. This is what the

870
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 4: Republican Party is right now, and it's a part of

871
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 4: that disdains and is hostile to democracy.

872
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: But the larger issue here with Johnson, he wants to

873
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: still kind of make the federal government small enough to

874
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: drown in a batha, right or does he want to

875
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: sort of do there's no like because we're pro life

876
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: quote unquote, we believe in like helping people with the

877
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: free breakfast and stuff like that.

878
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you're right about that. I mean, this is

879
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 4: the ironic shift about the Republican parties. It's pretending to

880
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: align itself with the working class. Pretending is the occur word,

881
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 4: because all they're really offering is culture war red meat

882
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: to the end of time, instead of policies that are

883
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 4: actually going to improve the lives of most working Americas. Now,

884
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 4: this is a part of the claims to stand for

885
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 4: family values, but it's driving support for politicians whose policies

886
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 4: are making it so much harder for American families to

887
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 4: succeed and intensifying record levels of inequality.

888
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: I was hoping you could do like a minute or

889
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: two on Israel. Like obviously Johnson is super interested in Israel,

890
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: but maybe not for the reasons. We think there is

891
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: an obsession there with Israel, right, like with the funding package,

892
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: and it's evangelical right.

893
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 4: Well, the funny thing about the funding package is that

894
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 4: they want to commit I think some fourteen thirteen or

895
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 4: fourteen billion to funding Israel, but they want to tie

896
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 4: it to cuts to the Inflation Reduction Act and other

897
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 4: policies they're actually going to help working Americans. So they

898
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: say they want small government, and they certainly want to

899
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 4: shrink government help for people who need it. They want

900
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 4: to blow up the institutions like public education, public transport, libraries,

901
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 4: and things like that. So when it comes to those things,

902
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 4: they say they want small government, but imposing their values

903
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 4: on all Americans. There's nothing small government about that. About

904
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 4: banning birth control and banning abortion, banning same sex meriage.

905
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 2: Do you think that's where this eventually goes? Banning birth control.

906
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 4: I think that they have already classified different forms of

907
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 4: birth control as abortion. I mean, the way I do

908
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 4: a lot of my research, Molley is I go to

909
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 4: right wing conferences and strategy gatherings and seminars, and many

910
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 4: members of the movement call birth control pills and some

911
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 4: forms of iug these very popular forms of birth control,

912
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 4: they call them chemical abortion. So you know, they're not

913
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 4: going to ban probably condoms things like that, but the

914
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 4: most popular and frankly most effective forms of birth control. Yes,

915
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 4: I do believe that they're coming after that. They say

916
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 4: they're coming after that.

917
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: What does that look like? More regulation? Regulation at the

918
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: state level. Does it go to the Supreme Court? I mean,

919
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: how does that work.

920
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 4: Given the way that they have done this. Look, they

921
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 4: talked about the end of row versus way is just

922
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 4: to start for a long time. They sort of lied

923
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 4: to the public and said, oh, this should be a

924
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 4: matter of states rights. And now they're talking about going

925
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 4: after public highways. They're saying, you know, they've actually done this,

926
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 4: I believe, in six counties in Texas, and they're planning

927
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 4: to do more where you're not allowed to travel on

928
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 4: a highway from one district to another in order to

929
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 4: obtain what they call an abortion. They've talked about abanning

930
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 4: abortion from the moment of they say fertilization. Nobody knows

931
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 4: when an egg is fertilized even the you know, all

932
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 4: the medical groups say it's implantation, but there are a

933
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 4: lot of forms of birth control that actually prevent implantation

934
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 4: but not fertilization, like brick control pills. I don't know.

935
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 4: I'm not a medical expression, right, and I know that

936
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 4: some of them do that, so they talk about going

937
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 4: after that by reclassifying it as a form of abortion.

938
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 2: I mean, it seems as if this Christian nationalism, this

939
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,959
Speaker 2: Christian authoritarianism, is the kind of next step of trump Ism. Right.

940
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: It's anti democracy, but it's also very much rooted in

941
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: a kind of religious puritanism that we've seen in this

942
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: country from a long time ago. I'm just curious, like,

943
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: do you think that they can sell those to the

944
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: American people.

945
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 4: I think they can impose it on the American people.

946
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 4: It doesn't take a majority to take over a country.

947
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 4: It just takes a very very empowered, organized minority. I

948
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: was speaking to somebody recently in Oklahoma where state leadership,

949
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 4: some of the state leaders are really trying to blow

950
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 4: up public educations through these various means, and she said,

951
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 4: you know, most Oklahomas do not support this at all,

952
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 4: but if you get the courts, you can get the country. Look,

953
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 4: abortion rights, for instance, are very popular even among Republicans.

954
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 4: But if you seize control of the courts. Let's not

955
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 4: forget we have a grotesquely unrepresentative Supreme Court. So if

956
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 4: you get control of the courts, you can pass laws

957
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 4: that most Americans don't like. I want to say, like,

958
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 4: you know, people ask what do they want, and I

959
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 4: want to say, broadly speaking, there are going to be

960
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 4: privileged groups in society, those who adhere to the supposedly

961
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 4: correct religious and political viewpoints, and those who are despised

962
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 4: and disfavored. And you know, if we're looking through the

963
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,399
Speaker 4: thirty thousand foot view, we can see that they really

964
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 4: want to impose a culture of majoritarian fear, where if

965
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 4: you don't conform to a certain prototypical expectation and are

966
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 4: not part of the in group, then you're going to

967
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: feel out of place and they have difficulty in the

968
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 4: society that you're living in, and it's sort of that

969
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 4: pressure to conform. Actually isn't a happy place, even for

970
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: those in the majoritarian view. It's not a happy society.

971
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 4: We have examples around the world of theocracies. I wouldn't

972
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 4: want to live in any one of them, you know.

973
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 4: So if you're a member of the disfavored groups, your

974
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 4: most important life decisions could be out of control. Your

975
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 4: vote may be marginalized, a large share of your tax

976
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 4: dollars will be funding other people's religion. Your child won't

977
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 4: be able to attend like a well funded, non sectarian

978
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,959
Speaker 4: public school, and things like that.

979
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they seem to be very furious with public schools.

980
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: Can you just give us We're almost out of time,

981
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: but just give us two seconds on that.

982
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 4: Well, the religious right has long taken aim at public education.

983
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 4: Public schools are non sectarian. They neither promote doors nor

984
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 4: disfavor any religion. They teach kids how to get along

985
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 4: with others, including those who are different. But this the

986
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 4: religious right has long been hostile to these principles of

987
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 4: equality and pluralism that the best of public education represents.

988
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 4: I mean, Jerry Follwell laid out the agenda nineteen seventy nine.

989
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 4: He said, I hope to see the day when there

990
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 4: are no more public schools. Churches will have taken them

991
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 4: over and Christians will be running them. And today in

992
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 4: America we're just getting closer to that goal. Thanks to

993
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 4: voucher and religious charter schemes in Oklahoma, they're trying to

994
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 4: establish a publicly funded religious charter school, which is direct

995
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 4: funding of a faith school. And that's very much like

996
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 4: the separation of church and school is really crumbling.

997
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: So interesting. Thank you so so much, Catherine.

998
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 4: It's been a pleasure to speak with you. Molly. Thank

999
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 4: you so much for having me.

1000
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: No moment, pet Jesse Cannon.

1001
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 3: Molly drunk fast. I can't tell you how unhappy I am.

1002
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 3: Anytime Josh Holy is a part of our moment of fuckery.

1003
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 3: Tell me what you saw today.

1004
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: He's often a part of our moment of fuckery.

1005
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: So today Josh Holly was interviewing secretary of my Orkus

1006
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: and he was chastising him about something.

1007
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 2: And I've never.

1008
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 1: Seen in the secretary like this. Usually he's really very quiet.

1009
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: And he just went off and explained to him that

1010
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: he was the child of all Acount survivors and just

1011
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: he talked about that, and you know, you can be

1012
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: a Jewish liberal and you can behave in a way

1013
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: that is honorable to both your Judaism and yourliberalism. It

1014
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: was just a very powerful moment. And also anytime that

1015
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: you can make Josh Holly look like the jerky is.

1016
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 2: That is our moment of fuckery.

1017
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1018
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1019
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1020
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1021
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.