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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: in recent weeks, we've talked a lot about things around

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Speaker 1: dead Inside. We've talked about women who love serial killers.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about famous female assassins and spies, and we've

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Speaker 1: talked about our interest in those kinds of things. So

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Speaker 1: for my question for this one, it's twofold one of them.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious, would you consider yourself a good liar?

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Speaker 1: And secondly, do you have any favorite anti heroines? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Anti heroins? So I can be a good liar, it's

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Speaker 1: according to my preparation and or my passion behind it.

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Speaker 1: So if we're playing games and such, probably not because

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Speaker 1: I'm not having too much fun being goofy, but definitely

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Speaker 1: after taking a lot of the classes that I did

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Speaker 1: in school and college, I probably should have been diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with some type of attachment disorder as a young child,

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Speaker 1: which often happens with kids who are in foster care,

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Speaker 1: orphanages in in a bad family situations, which also helped

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Speaker 1: me to adapt by lying. So as a young kid,

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Speaker 1: I was a really good liar to the point that

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Speaker 1: it was just second nature and I was really good

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Speaker 1: guessing at what people wanted me to say. I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: good at reading people. Today I've gotten less and less

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Speaker 1: because I have to get more isolated, I think. But

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Speaker 1: at point of time, I was actually really good and

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Speaker 1: just being able to discern what needs to be said,

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Speaker 1: whatever whatnot, and testing the environment. So as a young kid,

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Speaker 1: I was good at Lion to a point that it

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Speaker 1: became a hobby. Now, of course I was still a

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Speaker 1: child and trying to elaborate, and some of the fantastical

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Speaker 1: ideas that I had and some of the things that

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Speaker 1: I lied about were over the top. Mhm. But if

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Speaker 1: I needed to, I could. So it was a survival tactic.

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Speaker 1: We'll say it like that. It was a really good

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Speaker 1: survivor in that way. Anti heroine, there's so many mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: I can't really think of the top of my head

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Speaker 1: who my favorite anti heroin would be. You know, I

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Speaker 1: do like characters like Atomic Bomb. I love Charlie Saron,

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Speaker 1: so I love her and like Old Guard. When that

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Speaker 1: movie came out, I was very excited about it because

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Speaker 1: I love her to death and I feel like she's

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Speaker 1: kind of an anti heroin and she she thinks she's

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Speaker 1: doing good, but she's killing people in order to do

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Speaker 1: good type of things that like what is the lesser evil?

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Speaker 1: Are you making a difference all of those things? But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really can't take offhand. What about you? Well, first off,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of similar to you in some ways and

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Speaker 1: that like I remember a couple of years ago another

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Speaker 1: show on our network, stuff to Plow Your Mind, had

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Speaker 1: a whole episode online and in the beginning there like

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Speaker 1: draw key on your forehead, and I did it. They

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Speaker 1: were like, if you drew the queue so that someone

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Speaker 1: who's looking at you sees the cue the proper way

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Speaker 1: it should be, you're a good liar, And that's what

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Speaker 1: I did instead of drawing it like a cue would

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Speaker 1: be to you. I feel like I'm a really good

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Speaker 1: liar and less alcohol or games get involved because I'm

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Speaker 1: extremely competitive and it makes me mad when people are wrong.

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Speaker 1: It makes me angry and it's a joke. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: the path that you've seen. Like people tease me about it,

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Speaker 1: Like Dylan, one of our coworkers, always teases me about

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Speaker 1: how bad a liar I am in games like where

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Speaker 1: because I just get so outraged. And it's funny because

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Speaker 1: then I tried to dial that back and then everyone

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Speaker 1: thought I was lying because it wasn't how I normally behave.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm I'm good at telling like truths

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Speaker 1: that are sort of exaggerated, and I'm really good at

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Speaker 1: reading people too. I'm good at being like, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: you want is this? And that does come up, and

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Speaker 1: like when you act um, when you're trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how a character would behave and how another character

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Speaker 1: will we act, That is a part of it. But

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Speaker 1: I think too, I've gotten worse and worse at it. Also,

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Speaker 1: I think I think get a worse liar because I

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Speaker 1: do just get mad. Are frustrated is probably a better term.

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Speaker 1: And as far as anti heroin, I really like Afra

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Speaker 1: from Surprise Surprise, Star Wars. She's in the comics and

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Speaker 1: the New comics, and she's like a female Indiana Jones,

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Speaker 1: but who's out for herself works for Darth Vader, and

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Speaker 1: I just really like her. And then I like the

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Speaker 1: character that I wrote that actually we might start reading

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Speaker 1: some fiction on here, so you might get yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: rights are like, Andie's got some fiction and fan fiction

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Speaker 1: she could read it like emails. I'm just saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they asked for ideas, I got ideas, and it's all Annie,

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Speaker 1: read your embarrassing fiction. But that's fine, it's not embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: You're right, You're right, And there we have seen a

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Speaker 1: rise of anti heroines, I feel like recently in our entertainment,

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Speaker 1: and we've been talking about doing a whole episode on that.

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Speaker 1: But before we do that, before we can get to that,

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Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never

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Speaker 1: Told You from how Supports dot com. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I are are jumping on a pop culture train.

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Speaker 1: We are going to talk about sociopaths today because the

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Speaker 1: movie Gone Girl is hitting theaters October three, and spoiler

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Speaker 1: alert listeners, one of the main characters in that movie,

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Speaker 1: well also in the book, can be considered a sociopath.

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Speaker 1: And so this led us to read all sorts of

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Speaker 1: fascinating things about sociopathy, but also sociopathy gender and our

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Speaker 1: fascination with women who are called sociopaths. That's right, So

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Speaker 1: all aboard the sociopathy express, everybody and the trains pulling

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Speaker 1: out the station. But it is pulling out the station

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. How about that for a smooth

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Speaker 1: transportation related transition to nineteen fifty two when the first

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Speaker 1: d s M or Diagnostic Statistical man annual, the so

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Speaker 1: called psychologist psychiatrist Bible, comes out and it mentions personality

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Speaker 1: disorders and personality disorders were generally viewed as deficit conditions

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Speaker 1: reflecting partial developmental arrests or distortions in development secondary to

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Speaker 1: inadequate or pathological early caretaking. How about that for some

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Speaker 1: jargon ey jargon jargon, right, And what's interesting about the

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Speaker 1: earliest definition of personality disorders and sociopathy is that it's

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Speaker 1: very fluid. We are definition of sociopathy has changed to

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Speaker 1: the point where really today's psychologists and psychiatrists don't rely

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Speaker 1: too heavily on that term at all. Sociopathy and psychopathy

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Speaker 1: both fall under these things called personality disorders UM and

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Speaker 1: sociopathic personality disturbance was in the nine D s M

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Speaker 1: one of three personality disorders subtypes, and it reflected what

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Speaker 1: at the time were considered different types of social deviants,

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Speaker 1: which definitely don't apply anymore. Things like just sexual deviation.

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Speaker 1: You were considered a sociopath addiction, you were also considered

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Speaker 1: a sociopath, and then that was further subcategorized into alcoholism

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Speaker 1: and drug addiction. And we have completely moved away from

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Speaker 1: that definition and those subcategories in particular, but the whole

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Speaker 1: tie into early caregiving triggers for sociopathy that is still

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Speaker 1: sort of part of the general definition. Yeah, that caregiving

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Speaker 1: trigger is a really important distinction between sociopathy and psychopathy

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Speaker 1: because today, it's Caroline mentioned, clinicians don't necessarily label many

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Speaker 1: people as sociopaths, but rather, according to the terms of

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Speaker 1: the d s M five would talk more about people

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Speaker 1: having antisocial personality disorders. And while there's still a lot

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Speaker 1: of disagree aimant about what the distinct differences or if

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Speaker 1: there are in fact distinct differences between psychopaths and sociopaths,

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Speaker 1: some think that sociopaths are the product of nurture i e.

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Speaker 1: Those caregiving triggers, whereas psychopaths are more the product of

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Speaker 1: nature of being born with that kind of deviance, right exactly,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty scary to think about either way. Um So,

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Speaker 1: Donald Black, who's a psychiatry professor and author of the

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Speaker 1: book Bad Boys, Bad Men, confronting antisocial personality disorder parentheses.

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Speaker 1: Sociopathy calls anti social personality disorders recurrent and serial patterns

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Speaker 1: of misbehavior that involves significant facets of life, and it's

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Speaker 1: marked by violation of social norms and regulations that occur

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Speaker 1: over time. And it can range, he says from things

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Speaker 1: like just lying, pathological lying all the way up to

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Speaker 1: petty theft, violence, and even murder. And basically to give

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Speaker 1: you a rundown, people with antisocial personality disorders lack empathy

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Speaker 1: and a conscience and really don't care about the rights

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Speaker 1: of others. And so if you extrapolate that, that can

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Speaker 1: either apply to the lying thing, I don't care about

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Speaker 1: you or what you think, I'm gonna lie to you

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Speaker 1: all the way up to murder. I don't care about

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Speaker 1: you as a humans. I'm going to murder you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna just get you out of my way. Uh. Statistically,

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Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder is thought to affect four percent of

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Speaker 1: the population, or about one and twenty people, and signs

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Speaker 1: of it, excluding murder, include things like disregard for right

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Speaker 1: and wrong, persistent lying, deceit, exploitation, a sense of superiority,

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Speaker 1: and exhibitionism, which might lead to difficulties with the law.

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Speaker 1: It might also manifest if they are parents, and things

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Speaker 1: like child abuse or neglect, and again and again, just

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Speaker 1: different ways of exhibiting that lack of empathy, whether it's

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Speaker 1: through neglect or through lying or through breaking the law. Right.

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Speaker 1: And these signs generally show up in childhood, but become

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Speaker 1: fully evident for most sociopaths, uh during their twenties and thirties.

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Speaker 1: And so people argue that, you know, we talked about

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Speaker 1: issues in childhood being a trigger, and uh, some researchers,

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Speaker 1: this is Donald Black in particular, would argue that it's

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Speaker 1: sort of a combination of both nature and nurture. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: there is a genetic component that makes you prone to

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Speaker 1: this type of personality disorder, but then life situations such

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Speaker 1: as child abuse or neglect could potentially trigger it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So different risk factors include things like family histories of

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Speaker 1: personality disorders or mental illness, being subjected to verbal, physical,

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Speaker 1: or sexual abuse during childhood, an unstable or chaotic upbringing,

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Speaker 1: a history of substance abuse in parents or other family members.

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Speaker 1: And when it comes to that diagnosis, we mentioned that

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Speaker 1: the symptoms start to emerge in adolescents a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: But a child will not be diagnosed necessarily with antisocial

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Speaker 1: personality disorder or certainly not be labeled a sociopath in

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Speaker 1: childhood because of that nurturing factor going on and clinicians thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: they're still sort of developing who they are if we

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Speaker 1: label them this way, now, that might not be correct, right, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: I mean it would. It would be unfortunate to label

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Speaker 1: a child a sociopath when maybe they're just you know,

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Speaker 1: poorly behaved. But conduct disorders in childhood are another big sign.

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Speaker 1: They are definitely studies have shown that conduct is a

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Speaker 1: serious conduct disorder. I'm not talking about a kid who

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Speaker 1: won't listen or won't mind. I mean like a serious

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Speaker 1: conduct disorder as a child is linked to being a

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Speaker 1: sociopath as an adult. But so mentioned nature versus nurture.

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Speaker 1: And there was a really interesting story from NPR that

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Speaker 1: talked to neuroscientists James Fallon. I don't know if people

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Speaker 1: read this. I did. I had not heard about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I thought it was so interesting. So neuroscientists James

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Speaker 1: Fallon had been studying psychopaths for years, looking at brain

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Speaker 1: scan studying the link between psychopathy, sociopathy, and criminal behavior

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Speaker 1: and prisoners. Um And he decided to look at his

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Speaker 1: own brain scan after talking to his mama, and his

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Speaker 1: mama said, we have some really interesting characters in our

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Speaker 1: family tree, a lot of like bad seeds. And he

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Speaker 1: went back and realized that he was descended from not one,

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Speaker 1: not to but several like murderers criminals, including Lizzie Borden.

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Speaker 1: He is a relative of Lizzie Borden. And so he's like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's really weird because I never feel like I want

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Speaker 1: to kill anyone, So let me look into this. And

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Speaker 1: and for listeners unfamiliar with who Lizzie Borden is, she

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Speaker 1: is known for being the child who killed her parents

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Speaker 1: an with an ax. Right she was acquitted though. Um

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Speaker 1: So he had already had a bunch of brain scans

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Speaker 1: and blood samples and stuff from his own family, because

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Speaker 1: I guess if you're related to a neuroscientist, you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna get picked on for research. Yeah, that's what you

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Speaker 1: do with Thanksgiving dinner, right, Hey, everybody get the m

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Speaker 1: R I machine. So he looked at a bunch of scans,

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Speaker 1: and he looked at his kids, and they all look

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Speaker 1: like a normal brain scan. He looked at his mom's

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Speaker 1: hers look normal. Fallon looks at his own, and he goes, huh,

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Speaker 1: he had absolutely low activity in the orbital cortex, the

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Speaker 1: front of the brain, just like the psychopaths and sociopath

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Speaker 1: criminals that he had been studying. So he writes that

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Speaker 1: people with low activity in that section of the brain,

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Speaker 1: the orbital cortex, are either freewheeling types or sociopaths. The

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Speaker 1: orbit cortex essentially serves to put a break on the amygdala,

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Speaker 1: which is involved in aggression. And in addition to that

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Speaker 1: low activity in the orbital cortex, there's something called the

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Speaker 1: m ao a gene also known as the warrior gene,

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Speaker 1: which is um an enzyme that regulates serotonin, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of scientists think that if you have a certain

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Speaker 1: version of this so called warrior gene, your brain won't

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Speaker 1: respond to the calming effects of serotonin. So psychopaths sociopaths

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Speaker 1: are kind of always primed to fight. This is one

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Speaker 1: reason why one hallmark of a sociopath is never learning

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Speaker 1: their lesson. You punish them, it doesn't matter, They're going

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Speaker 1: to do the same thing again because their brains are

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Speaker 1: literally primed for this, and yeah, and no conscience, and

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Speaker 1: so he points out. Fallon points out that the third

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Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle in terms of his research is

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Speaker 1: child abuse or violence, which can be a major trick

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Speaker 1: or if those other puzzle pieces are already there. So

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Speaker 1: if you already have low to no activity in your

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Speaker 1: orbital cortex and you also have this warrior gene, so

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Speaker 1: you're primed to fight or primed to be aggressive, if

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Speaker 1: you already suffered as a child, then that's like a

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Speaker 1: perfect storm that could set you on a path of

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Speaker 1: being a sociopath. He in the interview and his wife

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Speaker 1: too were saying, well, thank goodness, I had a great childhood,

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Speaker 1: a great upbringing, very loving family because oh boy, and

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Speaker 1: his wife even joked about it. His wife was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm still here, so everything that's fine. And it's such

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Speaker 1: evidence that nature in this instance is not destiny because

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Speaker 1: you have this perfectly well adjusted, successful neuroscientists who just

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Speaker 1: happens to discover that he has the brain of a psychopath. Right.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and so he's his own very interesting case

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Speaker 1: study as to like why am I not in prison

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Speaker 1: and all these other people are in prison for doing

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Speaker 1: these terrible things. I just didn't have some of the pieces. Well,

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Speaker 1: and because of that, that nurture puzzle piece, it is possible,

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Speaker 1: unlike what a lot of people think, it is possible

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Speaker 1: for sociopaths to be treated psychotherapy can possibly be affected.

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Speaker 1: The challenge though, is that person wanting to have that

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Speaker 1: change happen, right, Because as you might imagine, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who would be labeled sociopaths, I mean they

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Speaker 1: don't have a conscience, so they might and they have

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Speaker 1: a sense of superiority. Yeah, they see no need to change. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what why would I need to change? It's all of

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Speaker 1: you people who out there who need to change, which

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Speaker 1: which some days, you know, when I'm being hard on myself,

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Speaker 1: that kind of a brain would be a nice, nice break,

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Speaker 1: like I'm fine, I'm totally fine here. It's the rest

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Speaker 1: of you. And when it keeps sitting on this galge,

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Speaker 1: you're watching Netflix, Yeah, murdering, I think that's I think

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Speaker 1: that's something totally different. But I just want a lazy

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Speaker 1: Sunday you deserve. It doesn't inside into my brain. Ye. Well,

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Speaker 1: so we haven't talked about gender yet. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about how about four percent of the population

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Speaker 1: could be qualified as having an anti social personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: But so what about gender, Well, it turns out that

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Speaker 1: there is a massive gender gap when it comes to

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Speaker 1: antisocial personality disorder and people we think of as sociopaths

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Speaker 1: because very few of them are women. Out of about

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Speaker 1: the ten million sociopaths in the United States, only one

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Speaker 1: and a half million of them are women. And depending

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Speaker 1: on the particular population, men are two to eight times

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Speaker 1: likelier to have it. So what's going on with that

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Speaker 1: on the nature front, Well, some scientists think that it

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with that warrior gene that

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned. Yeah, because the warrior gene is a

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Speaker 1: variant on the X chromosome, and men have just the

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Speaker 1: one X chromosome, which means that they're more sensitive to

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Speaker 1: the warrior genes effects and therefore more likely than women

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Speaker 1: to exhibit antisocial behavior. And Donald Black, who is the

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Speaker 1: author of that book we sited earlier, Bad Boys, Bad Men,

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Speaker 1: offers another possible explanation in that the way that anti

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Speaker 1: social personality disorders sociopathy, the way they manifest in people,

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Speaker 1: could also have something to do with gender norms that

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Speaker 1: no matter what we're feeling inside, even if you Kristen

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Speaker 1: as a woman just as rage as a man next

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Speaker 1: to you, that you might, because you're a woman, turn

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Speaker 1: your anger inward while men generally stereotypically tend to express

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Speaker 1: it outwardly. So perhaps women are acting out in less

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Speaker 1: obvious ways, which could then mean that women are simply

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Speaker 1: less likely to be diagnosed as a sociopath. So you

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Speaker 1: might not go around like smashing storefronts and murdering people instead,

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Speaker 1: I just eat Jacklin, buy shoes, Caroline, I'm a monster, Seriously.

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Speaker 1: The we did find a few studies looking at how

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Speaker 1: generals might play into the diagnosis of personality disorders, because

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Speaker 1: you have borderline personality disorder being overwhelmingly diagnosed to women.

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Speaker 1: And we've actually, side note, had a few stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. Listeners request an episode on that, which

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Speaker 1: we can come back and do later on if folks

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Speaker 1: would like to hear about that. But we found one

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Speaker 1: study in the Journal of Personality Disorders in two thousand

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Speaker 1: two looking at this, and it examined whether established gender

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Speaker 1: differences in the prevalence of normal personality traits could explain

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Speaker 1: the gender differences found in the prevalence of personality disorders. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, how we are clinicians sitting there would assume,

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Speaker 1: for instance, talking about the anger inward outward would assume

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Speaker 1: that either a woman or a man sitting on the

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Speaker 1: couch across from them should be processing their emotions. Right. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: there are definitely stereotypical gender roles and expectations whether you're

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Speaker 1: a man or a woman, But it's not just biological

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Speaker 1: sex that has stuff to do with this. It's also

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Speaker 1: gender roles and the way that you fit into the

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Speaker 1: spectrum as far as masculinity and femininity, not just your

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Speaker 1: biological sex. And so they found that, you know, as

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Speaker 1: you would expect anti social traits, those people with low

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Speaker 1: levels of agreeableness that was associated with masculinity, whereas men,

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Speaker 1: so it's still men, but men who are described as

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Speaker 1: feminine ended up exhibiting more features of all the personality

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Speaker 1: disorders they studied, except anti social, whereas when it comes

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Speaker 1: to dependent traits which involve higher levels of agreeableness were

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Speaker 1: not so surprisingly so created with higher femininity and lower masculinity.

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Speaker 1: So these studies aren't saying that all of these diagnoses

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Speaker 1: are totally bunk because all clinicians are just operating on

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Speaker 1: gender stereotypes. But it nonetheless, for something as puzzling as

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Speaker 1: these kinds of personality disorders, it is worthwhile to pay

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Speaker 1: attention to again, like how the nurture intertwines with the nature,

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Speaker 1: because gender roles would certainly be a part of that

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Speaker 1: nurture piece. But what is it though, about this combination

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Speaker 1: of nature nurture that manifests in these antisocial personality disorders, which,

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Speaker 1: when you say it like that, that doesn't sound to

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Speaker 1: appealing at all. And yet we seem to have, especially

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Speaker 1: now a pop cultural fascination with them and almost like

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Speaker 1: a secret sort of admiration for the sociopath. So let's

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Speaker 1: take let's take more into that when we come right

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Speaker 1: back from a quick break and now back to the show.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of of the pop culture fascination with

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Speaker 1: the sociopath, I think it makes sense. I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sociopath is someone that we have described

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Speaker 1: in the first half of this episode as someone, yeah,

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Speaker 1: who's terrible and doesn't have a conscience. But also if

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Speaker 1: we're watching them as a third party from the safety

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Speaker 1: of our own living room, it's it's almost as if

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Speaker 1: you can look at this character, this archetype this trope

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Speaker 1: and say, man, look at how powerful he or she is.

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Speaker 1: Look at the fact that this person doesn't really give

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Speaker 1: a hoot. Give a hoot, the sociopath certainly gives no hoop.

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Speaker 1: That's right, the new tagline for sociopaths everywhere. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: what's interesting to see two is when you look at

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Speaker 1: characters sociopathic characters on television like Tony Soprano or Walter White,

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Speaker 1: Dexter Stringer Bell and Marlow from the Wire, what you

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Speaker 1: do see is that it's this sociopathy as manifested in

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Speaker 1: sort of the unadulterated violent masculinity. In a way. There

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Speaker 1: are murdering people, they're out for themselves, they're getting wealth

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Speaker 1: and power along the way. Some also called Don Draper

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Speaker 1: a sociopath. So he's clearly not killing people, but he

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Speaker 1: is having sex left and right and lying constantly with

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Speaker 1: no conscience as well. So what's going on with this? Well?

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Speaker 1: Adam cots go over at the New Inquiry wrote along

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Speaker 1: piece about this, and he said that it seems as

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Speaker 1: though most cultures have lionized ruthless individuals who make their

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Speaker 1: own rules. Yet there's something new going on in this entertainment,

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Speaker 1: and that goes beyond the understandable desire to fantasize about

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Speaker 1: living without the restrictions of society. He says that this

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Speaker 1: fantasy sociopath is somehow outside social norms, and he goes

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Speaker 1: on to talk about how this person, this character is

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Speaker 1: totally breaft of sympathy and totally a moral They're a

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Speaker 1: master manipulator doing whatever they can to get what he

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Speaker 1: or she wants. But we're looking at them and we're

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Speaker 1: just going like, oh, that is so cool, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: what would it be like through this fantasy sociopath. It

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Speaker 1: allows us to just take a moment and consider and

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Speaker 1: indulge in this idea of living without any rules whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: only you know, serving ourselves and um. One thing in

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Speaker 1: his essay that really jumped out to me was this

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Speaker 1: idea that perhaps our admiration of these sociopaths on screen

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Speaker 1: is connected to our desire to avoid awkwardness, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like there is a total like pop cultural obsession

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Speaker 1: right now with awkwardness and also on the other end

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Speaker 1: of it with these sociopaths. And he talks about how

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Speaker 1: maybe the fantasy of the sociopath is partly the fact

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Speaker 1: that sociopaths don't experience awkwardness because they part of like

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Speaker 1: awkwardness in and of itself. Social awkwardness is all about

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Speaker 1: feeling uncomfortable with the violation of social norms, of not

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Speaker 1: knowing what rules to follow, you know, the dead silence,

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Speaker 1: not knowing how to fill it. I have a very

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Speaker 1: close and personal relationship with this feeling. But a sociopath

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Speaker 1: could yet again, give a hoot, Caroline, but could not.

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Speaker 1: Could I give a hoot about the awkward silence? Because

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Speaker 1: there are you know, that person is living in sort

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Speaker 1: of the psychological vacuum where there are no rules. Who cares? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he says, so that if you're sitting on your couch

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Speaker 1: watching Tony Soprano do his thing. It's a thought experiment

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Speaker 1: based on the question what if I really and truly

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Speaker 1: did not give a bleep about anyone the answer they provide,

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Speaker 1: then I would be powerful and free. We all, we

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Speaker 1: all want to avoid the awkwardness, and so maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a good test that we can all perform right now

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Speaker 1: on ourselves. Do you feel awkward on a regular basis? Yes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not a sociopath. Congratulations to a portion of

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Speaker 1: our audience, This is true. Well, and these fantasy sociopaths, too,

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Speaker 1: are so clearly not grounded in all of the clinical

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Speaker 1: stuff we were just talking about in terms of how

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Speaker 1: sociopaths might have this neurological predisposition for these kinds of behaviors,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of that is triggered by a series

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Speaker 1: of unfortunate events. You know, It's not like being a

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Speaker 1: fantasy sociopath is like you just won the lottery, dude,

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Speaker 1: everything's great for you. No, no, right, because you know,

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Speaker 1: some some of the studies and articles we looked at,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about how a lot of sociopaths come out

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Speaker 1: of broken homes, kids who were just left to their

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Speaker 1: own devices. They were neglected, and when mom or dad

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Speaker 1: or grandma whoever did come home, then they were abused

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Speaker 1: verbally or physically, and then they end up in the

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Speaker 1: criminal system and they end up in prison, very much

426
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of the people that, as Kotsko says,

427
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: we lionize for their ruthless activity, the ruthless behavior. Well,

428
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: it seems like when it comes to this fantasy sociopath

429
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: though that Kotsko is talking about, we are misinterpreting that

430
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: as what's really a fantasy psychopath, because the psychopath is

431
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: the one that we hear about a lot in terms of,

432
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: you know, the psychopaths among us, Psychopaths and CEOs like

433
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: psychopaths do tend to not always but they have a

434
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: greater likelihood of being very successful because they tend to

435
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: be very charming with with that lack of empathy on

436
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: top of it, which unfortunately is kind of a recipe

437
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: for success in certain ways, whereas as the sociopath, like

438
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: you said, Caroline, in real world terms, often has a

439
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: much harder time climbing a ladder, if they even want

440
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: to climb a ladder. Right, And when we were searching

441
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: for this episode, I ran a Google trends search in

442
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: a Google Ingram search for our use of the term

443
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: sociopath because it seemed like we hear more and more

444
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: and more these days, and the data showed like, pretty

445
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: much after two thousand it's used just shoots up. Yeah, Yeah,

446
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting because I think we do just

447
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: sort of throw it around. Yeah I know that I

448
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: throw it around, not throw it around, just like, Hey,

449
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: that girl on the street over there must be a sociopath.

450
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 1: Chris and Stings it's just sociopath. Yeah, Like I mean,

451
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: I don't throw it around like that, but you know,

452
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: I I do know I have this acquaintance in my

453
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: life who um completely lack sympathy, which is part of

454
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: the sociopath psychopath thing. But I did read one article

455
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: that sort of said it was one of those like

456
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: are you dating this person? And it looked at psychopath, sociopath,

457
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: but also narcissist. I think they're like things like narcissism.

458
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: We tend to just lump all of this, you know,

459
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: less than ideal personality traits into just calling somebody a

460
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: sociopath because it sounds so dramatic. I wonder too, and

461
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: this is completely anecdotal armchair aside. I wonder if it's

462
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: more of our current sort of need to label everything

463
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: and identify a lot of things and thinking about the

464
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: popularity of BuzzFeed quizzes what kind of X are you?

465
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: I think we just are at a moment where we

466
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: really want to figure out what every thing is in

467
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: sociopath is one of those things that sort of risen

468
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: to the top as like our go to, oh, well,

469
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: that person is clearly lacks empathy, must be a sociopath. Well.

470
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: I think also in an era where uh pop psychology

471
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: book looks like from Malcolm Gladwell or like freakonomics those guys,

472
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: I think when we live in an era like that,

473
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: where more and more people are wanting to know more

474
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: about basic psychological concepts, I think that that raises an

475
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: issue too. Not to say that we are learning everything

476
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: that we need to learn to properly identify people, but

477
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: we're still curious about it and we're still fascinated by

478
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: these people. Well, and that's one of the reasons why

479
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: this memoir that came out not too long ago, Confessions

480
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: of a Sociopath, A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight

481
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: by M. E. Thomas, which is a pseudonymp cut so

482
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: much attention because, first of all, people were like, Oh,

483
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: this is a memoir written by a sociopath. This is incredible,

484
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: We have nothing like this. We have to read this.

485
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: What is it like inside that brain? And also the

486
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: fact that Thomas is a woman. Right now, John Ronson,

487
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: who wrote the book The Psychopath Test and who we

488
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: talked about in our episode a while back on Psychopaths,

489
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: wrote a piece in The New York Times about Emmy

490
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: Thomas's book because he was so excited. He's like, oh

491
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: my god, am I going to get the chance to hear,

492
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, from the mouth of a sociopath. And then

493
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: his review is so just like, oh man, because it's

494
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: a freaking memoir written by a sociopath. He says that

495
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: it starts out great and then it just lags because

496
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: someone with this trait, this personality disorder, doesn't maybe um

497
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: understand when they're just spewing nonsense, you know, when they've

498
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: gotten past the point of being interesting and helpful and

499
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: they buy too much into their own image. And so

500
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: he says that, like the book just starts to sort

501
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: of peter off. And then he says, and then wait,

502
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: a second part of being a sociopath is pathological lying.

503
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: So how do we even know that all the stuff

504
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: this woman says is true about being you know, this

505
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: powerful corporate person in the corporate world but also teaching

506
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: Sunday school and having a family and doing all this stuff,

507
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: Like how much of this can we actually believe? Well,

508
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: And he was even skeptical of the author's claim that

509
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: she's a woman because sociopathy is so predominant among men.

510
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: And going back to you know, his being of like,

511
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: wait a minute, their pathological liars. A lot of times

512
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: this is almost too good to be true? Is the

513
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: wrong cliche to use, but sort of like that, right,

514
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, so Ammy Thomas was actually well, she said

515
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: she was attacked quite a bit online on her blog,

516
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, message boards, uh, saying that, oh, well, you're

517
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: faking it because you're a woman, or you're really a

518
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: man disguised as a woman, or you're just trying to

519
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 1: get attention by you know, breaking out of the norms

520
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: of what a sociopath is. But in terms of answering

521
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: the question of why are we so fascinated by these

522
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: characters take it from a sociopath or a self described sociopath,

523
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: Thomas writes that in a world filled with gloomy, mediocre nothings,

524
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: people are attracted to the sociopaths exceptionalism, like moths to

525
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: a flame, And that seems to fit in with what

526
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: Kotsko was saying about, you know, kind of this escapism

527
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: when we watch a sociopathic character like Tony Soprano or whatever,

528
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: that we're like, oh, man, he just doesn't give a

529
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: hoot who you know, who it's given, he doesn't care.

530
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: He can just do what he wants. He's so powerful

531
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: and and and doesn't stop to feel guilty, like there

532
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: is something attractive about that. Well, and it's incredible to

533
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: consider what it would be like if you know. M. E.

534
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: Thomas claims in her book that she has never had

535
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: an insecurity and feels no anxiety. And on top of this,

536
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: and this is a quote listeners, she possesses quote remarkably

537
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: beautiful breasts, which even putting that out there to the

538
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: world in your memoir is evidence of the fact that

539
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: you have never had a security And what what is

540
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: walking through the world like that for a day like that?

541
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 1: I mean, that is kind of incredible to think about. Um.

542
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: But one thing too that jumped out at me reading

543
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: about how her blog followers turned on her, some of

544
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: them when she was actually outed by another blog Above

545
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: the Law as a woman. Um. It was a number

546
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: of sociopaths who had started reading the blog because there

547
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: is an online community of sociopaths, which sounds sort of

548
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: like an oxymoron of an sociopathic community, but of people

549
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: you know there are obviously in the same way that

550
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: they're functioning psychopaths out there, they're clearly functioning sociopaths out

551
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: there as well. And yeah, but the the idea of

552
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: her being a woman was just outrageous, so outrageous. But

553
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: it's not so outrageous when it comes to pop cultural

554
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: characters of late because in addition to the tony sopranos,

555
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: would you call Walter White on Breaking Bad a sociopath

556
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: or psychopath? Oh? Because he cares about Walt Jr. Making

557
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,479
Speaker 1: him his his breakfast? Now I would, I would say

558
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: that he's not, you know, because he does care so

559
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: much and that what drives him into a life of

560
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: crime is not because he doesn't give a hoot uh

561
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: and want power. It's because he is sick and needs

562
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: money and also needs to save his family. This is true.

563
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: Walter White not a sociopath. You've heard it here for yes.

564
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 1: Moving on, but yeah, in addition to all these male

565
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: characters that have been very popular of late, they're also

566
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: a lot of sociopathic women, particularly on television as well.

567
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 1: You have Cercy Landister, for instance, in Game of Thrones,

568
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: although we have to say, I mean that's it's more

569
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: originally written in a book and it didn't start as

570
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: a television show. And then they're also there's a Glenn

571
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: closes character in Damages, which I think it's I watched

572
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 1: it on Netflix. I assume it's still on Netflix if

573
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: you haven't seen it yet. She's definitely a sociopath on there.

574
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: And then on screen you have Laura and under the Skin,

575
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: who I believe is played by Scarlett Joe Hanson, and

576
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: then Elizabeth Salander again started as a book girl with

577
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: a dragon tattoo, right, and I mean, you know we

578
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: need to we need to get to the chase here

579
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: people Gone Girl and uh and this is the part

580
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: where if you haven't read the book and you're not

581
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: planning to see the movie yet, you might want to

582
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: go ahead and pause the podcast until after you've done

583
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: one of those things because spoiler alert. So part of

584
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: the inspiration for this episode was talking about Amy Dunn

585
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: from Gone Girl. She is the wife in the movie.

586
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: She'll be played by the lovely Rosamond pike Um. In

587
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: writing the character of Amy, Gillian Flynn, Gone Girls author

588
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: calls Amy a quote unquote functioning sociopath, which she makes

589
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: sure to distinguish from the quote iconic psycho bitch. And

590
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: I thought that her definitions of these things was was

591
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: so interesting because she ties it in, as does another

592
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: writer that we'll talk about a second, but she ties

593
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: it in with feminism and kind of society's perceptions of

594
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: what women and female characters should be um because, she

595
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: says Flynn, Flynn writes that feminism isn't just this go

596
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: girl empowering attitude about being the best you can be.

597
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: She says, for me, it's also the ability to have

598
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: women who are bad characters. The one thing that really

599
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: frustrates me is the idea that women are innately good,

600
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: innately nurturing in literature. She says, they can be dismissively bad, trampy,

601
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: vampi bitchy types. But there is still a pushback against

602
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: the idea that women can be just pragmatically evil, bad

603
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: and selfish. And so Flynn is saying, I don't write

604
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: these quote psycho bitches because this particular woman is just crazy.

605
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: She has no motive, so she is dismissable as a person.

606
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: And she contrasts the character of Amy Dunn and Gone

607
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 1: Girl to someone like Glenn Close in Fail Attraction, who,

608
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: as Flynn describes it, is crazy because quote her lady

609
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: parts have gone crazy. And I mean that is a

610
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: good point to make where it is rare to see

611
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: a woman who is simply bad, not just bad because

612
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: she is driven by the actions of a man or

613
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: by her sexuality, and it's usually the exhibition of her

614
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: sexuality that makes her bad. Right, Whereas with a character

615
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: like Amy Dunn, if you know, if you do read

616
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: the book or see the movie or whatever, she's not

617
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: nuts or scary or unstable because she has a hysterical

618
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: floating womb I mean, or because she's had sex with

619
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: someone she shouldn't have had sex with, and so she's

620
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: damaged goods. She is just as as Flynn said, pragmatically

621
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: bad and so. Writing in a piece for Dick about

622
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: this female sociopath that is so on our minds these days, MERV.

623
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: M Ray wrote that unlike these women like Glen Close's

624
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: character and fatal attraction, these quote iconic psycho bitches, the

625
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: functional sociopath isn't dismissible as a slave to her emotions.

626
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: She's not outwardly violent, she's remorseless, she's clear ride and

627
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: calculating um. She's donning one feigned feeling after another to

628
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: get what she wants, but em right in this piece

629
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: also delves into the connection between pop culturally, speaking between

630
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: the female sociopath and our pop cultural conceptions of feminism

631
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: and how feminism informs our idea of powerful women, and

632
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: how a lot of times powerful women in society are

633
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 1: often cast as sociopath. Essentially, yeah, she writes about how this,

634
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: this character of the female sociopath, this clear eyed, calculating sociopath,

635
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: nimbly scales the professional ladder. So it's it's the female

636
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: corporate equivalent in our in our popular imaginations of like

637
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: a tony soprano. H Emory writes that this female sociopath

638
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: character wants to dominate these systems from within, these systems

639
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: being generally inequality the corporate world, and then she writes

640
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: as the most streamlined product of a world in which

641
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: well intentioned people blively invoke words like arbitrage, leverage, capital,

642
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: and currency to a praise how successfully we inhabit our bodies, ourselves.

643
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: So what does that mean, Caroline? What what is she

644
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: arguing here in terms of feminism and the female sociopath?

645
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: Because there was a follow up piece on this, or

646
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: a response piece I should say on this at the billfold,

647
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: essentially saying, oh, what do you mean? Because when you

648
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: first read it it does seem like Emory is saying

649
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: that the ultimate realization of feminism in today's corporate world

650
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,959
Speaker 1: is that of the female sociopath, which is just makes

651
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: me want to hulk smash something. I think I had

652
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: to Well, I was telling Christian before we did this

653
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: that I had to read that piece a couple of

654
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: times before because my first reaction was like, wait a second,

655
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: and then I had to our t f a uh.

656
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: And so basically, I think she's pointing out that so

657
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: these these sociopathic women characters don't give a hoot because

658
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: they don't care about these gender norms, these social norms,

659
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: these social constructs holding them back, so they'll just plow

660
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: ahead however they wish, which, okay, good for them, that

661
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: might make you a CEO. But when this character type

662
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: this trope, this construct, he's aligned with feminism. You can

663
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: imagine that that's not the greatest pr for anyone, but

664
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 1: it certainly says a lot about how we view career women.

665
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: I mean, look at these women we've talked about, and

666
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: how so many of these shows that we watch nowadays

667
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: feature this strong, like sociopathic leaning woman character. And I

668
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: think that shows that Okay, yes, women can be powerful,

669
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: but yes, we sure do still have a lot of

670
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: anxieties about a powerful woman and what that means. But

671
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: the only person so far in my research for this

672
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: who has invoked feminism directly in relation to a sociopathic

673
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: character is Jillian Flynn. And I don't see. It's not

674
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: like Glenn Close on Damages is advising, you know, the

675
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: younger female attorney like, hey, honey, have have you heard

676
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: of my glorious Steinhum, she's really gonna now let's go

677
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,479
Speaker 1: kill someone, you know, Like what, I don't. I don't

678
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: see how that's happening. I think perhaps it's more a

679
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: thing of image of If the image of a powerful

680
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: woman then that we're seeing is a freaking sociopath um,

681
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: then perhaps that can be limiting and damaging to the

682
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: idea of feminism. But at the same time, though no

683
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: one's worried that too much of Tony Soprano is gonna

684
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: hurt men, you know what I mean? Like that that

685
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: caused there, And I think it's interesting that this feminism

686
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: plus uh sociopathy conversation has come up because Jillian Flynn

687
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: was also not all readers loved the character of Amy

688
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: Dunn and how Jillian Flynn wrote her because some people

689
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: interpret her interpreted her as a very misogynistic character because

690
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: she has no patience for other women, which obviously is

691
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: a manifestation of her sociopathy. But there were some people

692
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 1: who thought that it was actually kind of a misogynistic

693
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: book in that in that way, Caroline, you're now doing

694
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: your classic Caroline I roll, Well, I think that. I mean,

695
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: I I loved the character of Amy Dunne. Oh, I

696
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: loved Gone Girl. I read it on the beach in

697
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: like two days. No, but I mean I loved Amy Dunne.

698
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: I loved the book. But I loved Amy Dunne. I

699
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: thought that that character was so despicable and so awful,

700
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: and um, I mean I for instance, there's a chapter

701
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: and Amy chapter talking about the cool girl, the cool girlfriend,

702
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, if you weren't

703
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: so insane, I would love you for this thing that

704
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: you're you as the character writing about being the cool girlfriend.

705
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: It's interesting, though, because that I remember being a passage

706
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: explicitly called out in things that I read about as

707
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: an example of possible misogyny in this I'm and I'm

708
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: I didn't read misogyny into it either, but I could

709
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: see where that interpretation could come from. I like taking

710
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: things a few steps back. I love the idea. One

711
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I also enjoyed Amy Dunn's character

712
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: is just because of the rarity of a woman just

713
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: being bad for bad sake. Yeah, And I think that's

714
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: what Gillian Flynn is saying. I think I mean to

715
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: leave out merv em Ray's dig piece completely. I think

716
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: if you just go back to the author herself, Gillian Flynn,

717
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 1: I think she's absolutely right. Why socially can't we have

718
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: why why do they all have to be Glenn close

719
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: boiling a bunny? Why can't it just be a fantastically

720
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 1: deliciously just bad woman. And I'm going to ask a

721
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 1: question that might be controversial, but why can't we also

722
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 1: just have times when we don't throw feminism into the stewpot?

723
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: Because I feel like the rabbit with the rabbit exactly

724
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: with Michael Douglas's daughter's rabbit, because I feel like this

725
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: is actually one of those instances when it only I

726
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: don't know, it only stirs things up rather than let

727
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: something be okay in and of itself. Yeah, I think it.

728
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: I think it muddies it a little. I do wonder,

729
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: I uh do wonder what prompted the discussion about from

730
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: Jillian Flynn about feminism in terms of the way that

731
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: she wrote Amy Dunn. Well, it might have been questions

732
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: about people thinking that she wasn't such a feminist character,

733
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: and maybe her being fed up with it. But I'm

734
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: also just completely projecting at this point. But I just like,

735
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: I don't, um, I don't think that these kinds of

736
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: characters who are incredibly entertaining in the same way that

737
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: all these devious, sociopathic, evil for evil's sake male characters

738
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: are entertaining, are necessarily somehow corrupting the image of like women,

739
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: powerful women in the corporate world, those women, like our

740
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: dual images of women in the corporate world and what

741
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: it takes to be a successful woman. Like there there's

742
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: enough in there to work on. I don't think that

743
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: Amy Dunn and Gone Girl is somehow making it worse.

744
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: It's already bad. Yeah, I mean, I definitely wish we

745
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: could get that dig writer on here and ask her

746
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: for her take on all of this, um to sort

747
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: of follow up her piece, and um, you know, talk

748
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: about the sociopathic character and what that means to her.

749
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: But Alas, we can't, but we can ask our listeners

750
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: what they think. I realized we also have covered so

751
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: much ground and probably ended in a very unexpected place,

752
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: but there was a lot to talk about, so hopefully

753
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: we have a lot to hear from our listeners about sociopathy.

754
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: Are there any sociopaths listening? Gone Girl fans, what do

755
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: you think? Let us know all your thoughts. Mom Stuff

756
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: at how stuffworks dot com is where you can email us.

757
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and

758
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: also messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of

759
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: messages to share with you. Right after a quick break

760
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: and now back to the show. Alrighty, well, Kristy and

761
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: I have some letters here from listeners in response to

762
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: our Grandparents episode. Um. I have this letter here from Talas,

763
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: who says I wanted to drop a line about my

764
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 1: granny and I happen to be sitting on the couch

765
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: with her right now watching British mystery TV shows. I

766
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: am the daughter of my grandmother's eleventh child my father's

767
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: side of the families from Tobago of Trinidad and Tobago,

768
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: and I find that the very large families are common

769
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: in West Indian countries. My granny is one of thirteen

770
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: children too. The family has been and still is run

771
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: as a matriarchy, with my granny at the top, even

772
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 1: in the late seventies. She's definitely a woman to be revered.

773
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: She brought her almost a dozen children to Queens, New

774
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: York in nineteen one, with no one to greet her

775
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: or money in her pocket, as so many immigrants have

776
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: done before her as a woman with any children. She

777
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: also has dozens of grandchildren. She's pretty good about keeping

778
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 1: our names straight. During my childhood, I spent all my summers,

779
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: holidays and time off from school in her house. I

780
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: also lived with her full time during a separation my

781
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: parents had. She has raised so many and cared tirelessly

782
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: for all of them as well. Up until a few

783
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: years ago, she was a main caregiver at her church's daycare,

784
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: as well as taking care of an elderly gentleman from

785
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: the church. Since last year, I've been staying with my

786
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: grandmother during the school weeks since I live outside of

787
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: the Five Boroughs. I'm twenty one now and I have

788
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: a seven year old cousin who lives in the house.

789
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: It's funny to watch them interact. Because I was around

790
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: the same age when I spent most of my time

791
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: with her. I can say that a Caribbean granny is

792
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: one of the best you can have, full of all

793
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: kinds of stories. My personal favorites are the Island ghost

794
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: stories and in addition, she holds an incredible catalog of

795
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: recipes in her wonderful brain. I do think that grandparents

796
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: are viewed in an unfavorable light and modern American society

797
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: where they become obsolete and reside in nursing homes or

798
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: care facilities and are only seen during holidays. However, I

799
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: come from a family where the house is and has

800
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: been multigenerational, with my granny at the helm. I believe

801
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: this is one of the most positive things about my

802
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: family and something I would like to maintain because the

803
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: benefits that I've reaped as well as the ones your

804
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: podcast reinforced and informed me about. So thank you tell

805
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: us I I love your granny already. Well, I have

806
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: one here from Beck in Australia who writes I just

807
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: listened to your Grandmother Hypothesis episode, which I found interesting

808
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: as I was raised by my maternal grandparents for a

809
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: large part of my childhood. More than this, though, both

810
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: of my grandparents who raised me were also raised by

811
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: their grandparents, although this was mainly due to the fact

812
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: that their fathers were away fighting in World War Two

813
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: and their mothers were absent. You mentioned that a close

814
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: relationship with grandparents gives children a closer association with their

815
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: grandparents views and ideals. I thought this was an interesting point,

816
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: as despite being raised by them, I have radically different

817
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: political views, especially they're fairly conservative, but I've always identified

818
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: with a far more liberal idea gen I've actually gained

819
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: far more of my political leanings from my friends, but

820
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: I've always been considered an old soul. I didn't have

821
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: any video games, but I can embroider and crochet. I

822
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: made a quote when I was nine, and I was

823
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: taught to be self sufficient in a lot of ways

824
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: that I noticed many children now are not. In fact,

825
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: I view my childhood to be more similar to that

826
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: of a decade or two earlier than my own. I

827
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: was given a bike and would be expected to be

828
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: out of the house all day. I had to ride

829
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: over a mile to get to the nearest children, and

830
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: as we had a national park on our street. We

831
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: had no shortage of space to explore, so that's precisely

832
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 1: what we did. My grandmother had asked me several times

833
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: if I felt like I was missing out growing up

834
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 1: on an isolated location with two senior citizens for company.

835
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: I never felt as though I was missing out. My

836
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: grandfather's role in our local government meant that we were

837
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: often invited to openings and events that others my age

838
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 1: didn't get to experience. My grandparents were both still working

839
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: full time for at least the first few years, and

840
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: if there was somewhere they had to be, then I

841
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: had to be there too. I was raised to be

842
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: someone who could be taken anywhere. The other thing that

843
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 1: I wanted to say was it not all grandmothers are

844
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: good bakers. I love my nan, but she is the

845
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: worst cook. This meant that I had to learn to

846
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: cook very early because seriously, her food is inedible. This

847
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: is actually something I'm super grateful for. I love to

848
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: be in my kitchen and I love food. Thanks so

849
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: much for talking about grandparents. I love your podcast and

850
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: listen to it often at work, So thanks Beck, and

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Speaker 1: thanks to everybody else who's written into us. Mom stuff

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Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address

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Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as

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Speaker 1: well as all of our videos, blogs and podcasts, including

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Speaker 1: this one, which has all of our sources so that

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Speaker 1: you can follow right along with us. It's all It's

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told You dot com. For more on

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Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics, isn't how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com