Speaker 1: But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Speaker 1: the Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2: So I had a dream about Roger. This was probably
Speaker 2: within a month after he passed away, and he was
Speaker 2: dressed in all white in an all white room, and
Speaker 2: he just sort of like appeared. He gave me a
Speaker 2: hug and he didn't talk, but I could hear his thoughts,
Speaker 2: and he said that everything was going to be okay.
Speaker 3: And then and that we were just embraced with each other.
Speaker 2: The moment in which he visited me, and it felt
Speaker 2: like it felt as real as possible, like it just
Speaker 2: felt like we had.
Speaker 3: Touched but that he came to me and said that
Speaker 3: everything was going to be.
Speaker 4: Okay, and I believed him.
Speaker 1: As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South,
Speaker 1: I thought being gay was the worst thing I could
Speaker 1: ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn
Speaker 1: that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
Speaker 1: are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll meet Chris Pimentel, who lost his
Speaker 1: first love to AIDS in nineteen ninety one. We'll learn
Speaker 1: what it was like for him to live through the
Speaker 1: AIDS crisis. And how thirty years later his story with
Speaker 1: that first love got a new chapter for my Heart podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, go and solve this and this is what
Speaker 1: we loved. Sometimes when I think about the AIDS crisis
Speaker 1: and all of the queer people that were affected, I
Speaker 1: honestly get emotional. It's sobering to put myself in their shoes,
Speaker 1: because forty years ago I could have lost so many
Speaker 1: of my friends and loved ones like they did. I
Speaker 1: could have been lost too. As a gay man, I've
Speaker 1: always had this deep fear of HIV, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: really have anything to do with the virus because it's
Speaker 1: totally treatable today, But it has everything to do with
Speaker 1: the shame. The little aid's history that I did learn
Speaker 1: in school taught me that people who have HIV died
Speaker 1: alone and unloved. But now, in my adulthood, realize that
Speaker 1: I was learning the wrong history. Making this show has
Speaker 1: helped me see just how many amazing love stories there
Speaker 1: were at that time. My next guest, Chris P. Mantell,
Speaker 1: has one of them. He lost his first love, Roger,
Speaker 1: to AIDS in nineteen ninety one, but that love would
Speaker 1: stay with him for the rest of his life and
Speaker 1: that love would revisit him unexpectedly thirty years later. So
Speaker 1: tell me, now, how did you know you were gay
Speaker 1: in your adolescence and in your teen years.
Speaker 2: I was still living in Los Angeles as a young
Speaker 2: early teen person and growing up in close proximity to
Speaker 2: West Hollywood, there was exposure to gay culture. I knew
Speaker 2: I was different as a young as a young boy,
Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was, but I knew that
Speaker 2: I liked boys also, So disco was big back then,
Speaker 2: and Donna Summer was my favorite artist and she still is.
Speaker 2: And Donna Summer had a big gay following. I mean
Speaker 2: also being raised in LA on the West Side, but
Speaker 2: you know, being close to West Hollywood and whatnot. You know,
Speaker 2: you would go into a store and you would hear
Speaker 2: Donna Summer and you would there would be gay men.
Speaker 3: And so that's how I was exposed.
Speaker 2: I saw older gay people and they stood out because
Speaker 2: when I was around with my family, that wasn't an
Speaker 2: image that I saw.
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about what your parents
Speaker 1: were like.
Speaker 2: My parents were born here in the US, but we
Speaker 2: come from Mexican heritage, so it's a very Latino Chicano household,
Speaker 2: and you know, my dad was very strict about me
Speaker 2: portraying any sort of feminine characteristics.
Speaker 1: And what was your mom like?
Speaker 3: House mom?
Speaker 2: Just very kind and very loving, caring, nurturing. I could
Speaker 2: tell that there was, you know, definitely a connection between
Speaker 2: my mom and I. I think my mom knew when
Speaker 2: I was at a young age.
Speaker 1: Did you end up coming out to your mom?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: I was starting to discover you know, sexuality and sex
Speaker 2: at that point. I would go to just any you know,
Speaker 2: mom in pop liquor store and they would have different
Speaker 2: types of pornography magazines and I would take Time magazine
Speaker 2: and then put the porn magazine in it. I would
Speaker 2: even go into bookstores and still magazines gay porn magazines
Speaker 2: and just stick them in my jacket and leave. And
Speaker 2: I had them in just a stack under my bed.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think moms know where to find
Speaker 2: anything and everything. She found these magazines while I was
Speaker 2: gone out of the house, and when I came home,
Speaker 2: they were just sitting on the bed.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh.
Speaker 3: My mom asked me.
Speaker 2: If I was gay, and I said no, because I
Speaker 2: hadn't come out to myself yet. But I think she
Speaker 2: let me just develop on my own. My mom was
Speaker 2: important because she was on my side. I felt that,
Speaker 2: I felt the love, I felt the nurturing, I felt
Speaker 2: the care from her. But you know, living also with
Speaker 2: my dad, that was, you know, difficult to do.
Speaker 1: Like you have your dad on one side, who is
Speaker 1: a little bit more strict, more machismo, and then you
Speaker 1: have your mom that's more accepting of the fact that
Speaker 1: you have this soft side to you.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think she saw who I was for who
Speaker 3: I was, she just accepted, she accepted me.
Speaker 2: It was about seventh eighth grade my mom was diagnosed
Speaker 2: with lupus. She became very sick, you know, and she
Speaker 2: had it for several years and it went into remission.
Speaker 2: She wasn't sick, very sick for all those years, more
Speaker 2: towards the beginning, and more and towards the end. I
Speaker 2: was twenty two when she passed away. When my mom
Speaker 2: passed away, I was there in the room. I felt
Speaker 2: like that her body was just the vessel she was in,
Speaker 2: and that her spirit was in all of us.
Speaker 3: She was always. She never left, you know.
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was sort of your advocate, even
Speaker 1: though you hadn't really come out yet. It sounds like,
Speaker 1: if you had come out to yourself, you would have
Speaker 1: come out to her and she would have protected you
Speaker 1: or embraced you. What were those years like coming into
Speaker 1: your own after your mom had passed.
Speaker 3: So I had moved out of the house.
Speaker 2: My father and I never really had a strong relationship
Speaker 2: pretty much never Maybe he recognized that, you know, I
Speaker 2: might be gay and whatnot. And now that my mom's
Speaker 2: gone and I pushing my dad out of the picture,
Speaker 2: I just felt like, I think I was looking to
Speaker 2: be loved. I think the love my mom was so
Speaker 2: strong that it was it was missing. I was still healing.
Speaker 2: It was just a few months. I was still trying
Speaker 2: to understand who I was as a person at that time,
Speaker 2: on top of my biggest cheerleader passing away, and so
Speaker 2: I was wondering where the love was going to come from.
Speaker 1: In the months following his mom's death, Chris really came
Speaker 1: into his own as a gay man. He was making
Speaker 1: other gay friends and exploring his sexuality. He would go
Speaker 1: on dates and even had some flings here and there,
Speaker 1: but deep down, the loss of his mother left a
Speaker 1: soft spot for love that he wanted to fill. One night,
Speaker 1: his friend Hector invited him to a big gay club
Speaker 1: in La Hector was like one of those friends who
Speaker 1: somehow knows everyone in the gay scene, and Chris had
Speaker 1: no idea that Hector would introduce him that night to
Speaker 1: someone who would change his life. Tell me about the
Speaker 1: night that you met Roger.
Speaker 2: So this was back in nineteen eighty nine, and there's
Speaker 2: a club in Los Angeles that's still around called Catch One.
Speaker 2: So that night was a house party, house music party,
Speaker 2: and so we went dancing. My friend Hector and I
Speaker 2: are walking in the hallway, but there was someone in
Speaker 2: front of him that he knew, and the person kept
Speaker 2: turning around and looking at me. A slim guy, six foot,
Speaker 2: very groomed, you know, he looked like he just had
Speaker 2: a fresh haircut, big smile, bright eyes. So we're walking
Speaker 2: through this hallway and Hector introduces me to Roger and
Speaker 2: I don't even remember seeing him the rest of the night.
Speaker 1: So what happened next?
Speaker 2: So I would say within a week, Hector, the mutual
Speaker 2: friend i'd introduced us, said oh, the guy you met
Speaker 2: at the club wants to ask you out or talk
Speaker 2: to you. And I said, okay, you know he was cute. Sure,
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't I didn't. I didn't pursue Roger,
Speaker 2: but Roger calls and our first date was back at
Speaker 2: the club where we where we first met again. It
Speaker 2: was house music and we just I just remember dancing away,
Speaker 2: dancing the night away with him, and then when he
Speaker 2: dropped me off, and I'm I don't have an exact
Speaker 2: memory of it, but I'm pretty sure he came inside.
Speaker 2: I'm sure he dropped me off and he spent the night.
Speaker 2: We hit it off that night. We just started hanging out,
Speaker 2: and then the hanging out turned into being boyfriends.
Speaker 1: So did you guys decide to move in together?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we grabbed the U haul and we moved in
Speaker 2: pretty good, I would say, within maybe a month.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fast, and I think, you know, I
Speaker 2: was so young. I was twenty two at that point.
Speaker 2: I was sure why not. He found an apartment for us.
Speaker 2: It was a large apartment complex, but we were on
Speaker 2: the on the third floor, and and I mean he
Speaker 2: showed it to me and said, do you want to
Speaker 2: live here? And I agreed, and so we moved in
Speaker 2: and started building a home together.
Speaker 1: What did you love about him, Chris? Those first couple
Speaker 1: months that you were dating.
Speaker 2: Well, one that he was also from a Mexican family.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of things that were relatable between
Speaker 2: us without having to explain cultural differences. It's almost like
Speaker 2: he was just from the neighborhood and he understood things
Speaker 2: about food or culture or traditions. Once I discovered we
Speaker 2: you know, we shared our birthdays and we figured out
Speaker 2: that we were both Capricorns, it was just one more
Speaker 2: of those things that we, you know, found a commonplace together.
Speaker 3: But he was also a warm person to me. He
Speaker 3: was very kind and very giving. I remember on.
Speaker 2: Fridays, every Friday, he would bring me a gift a card.
Speaker 2: One of the ways he showed his love is that
Speaker 2: he was just a giving person and very kind, and
Speaker 2: there was just a peacefulness about him. Roger made me
Speaker 2: feel safe. I felt safe with him, and especially during
Speaker 2: that time. I mean it hadn't even been a year
Speaker 2: after my mom passed away, So I think, you know,
Speaker 2: that was something that made me feel comfortable around him,
Speaker 2: that I was being protected and someone was looking out
Speaker 2: after me.
Speaker 1: He had kind of filled that space that you were
Speaker 1: looking for that you had mentioned earlier. Yes, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: Chris and Roger were falling for each other fast but
Speaker 1: the backdrop of their love story was a growing crisis
Speaker 1: of thousands of young gay men getting sick because of
Speaker 1: a new virus called HIV. When left untreated, HIV would
Speaker 1: turn into AIDS, which was almost always deadly. And in
Speaker 1: those days, there was no effective treatment and there was
Speaker 1: no cure. Now, Chris, I wonder if you could tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about the time period. This is
Speaker 1: the early nineties, late eighties, and AIDS is ravaging the
Speaker 1: gay community. How had it affected you? And Roger?
Speaker 2: AIDS was big news. It was pretty much a death
Speaker 2: sentence at that point. There was no cure, there was
Speaker 2: no treatment. It could look very scary to somebody, you know,
Speaker 2: with lesions and being very gaunt and thin and you know,
Speaker 2: almost like a shell of a person, and so it
Speaker 2: was very scary and nobody knew what to do. People
Speaker 2: sometimes didn't even want to touch you, you know. It
Speaker 2: was like no kissing and sometimes no hugging. And you know,
Speaker 2: don't sit on that toilet seat because a gay man
Speaker 2: might have been on that you know, toilet seat, and
Speaker 2: not because you were someone was HIV, but because you
Speaker 2: were gay. So if you were gay, you probably did
Speaker 2: have HIV, you know, it was a lot of assumptions.
Speaker 2: They were just figuring out how to navigate HIV and
Speaker 2: how to care medically care for people. I didn't even
Speaker 2: really understand how it might affect me. But one day
Speaker 2: Roger came home and he told me, I have got
Speaker 2: to tell you something, and it admitted that he had
Speaker 2: just tested positive told me and he was crying and
Speaker 2: was so worried that I would break up with him
Speaker 2: and that I would want nothing to do with him.
Speaker 2: Based on just the times that were occurring, there was
Speaker 2: a lot of shame just being positive or admitting that
Speaker 2: you were positive.
Speaker 1: So in that moment when he told you that he
Speaker 1: was positive, what was going through your mind?
Speaker 2: I think my mom sort of kicked him my mom's
Speaker 2: behaviors of care and love. He seemed terrified that I
Speaker 2: would leave him, and I just leaned into him, telling
Speaker 2: him that I loved him and that I I wouldn't
Speaker 2: leave him because of that. Like to me, it wasn't
Speaker 2: even a thought. We were in love with each other,
Speaker 2: and so something like his HIV status wasn't enough to me.
Speaker 2: That wasn't a reason to leave him.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Chris learns that when Roger dies
Speaker 1: he will leave behind a son. It's nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 1: Still grieving his mother's death, Chris's relationship with Roger helped
Speaker 1: him heal, but just as their romance began to reach
Speaker 1: new heights, Roger tested positive for HIV. By this time,
Speaker 1: AIDS had been devastating the gay community for almost ten years.
Speaker 1: Thousands were already dead. The CDC said, if you had AIDS,
Speaker 1: you would likely only have five years to live, and
Speaker 1: the images coming out we're jarring young men with sunken
Speaker 1: cheekbones from rapid weight loss and big purple blotches on
Speaker 1: their skin from cancer. At twenty three years old, Chris
Speaker 1: was processing that his first love might die. He knew
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to get any help in caring for
Speaker 1: Roger from his family or Rogers, and he was also
Speaker 1: starting to think about his own HIV status too. How
Speaker 1: were you thinking about your own status?
Speaker 2: I just assumed I was HIV positive. I was convinced,
Speaker 2: completely convinced that, well, we've been having sex and I
Speaker 2: have HIV too, and this is my fate as well.
Speaker 3: Just his was showing up sooner.
Speaker 2: Back then, I was just I was resigned to that
Speaker 2: I was HIV positive. And that I would get sick
Speaker 2: and pass away.
Speaker 1: What was his personality like when he was sick? What
Speaker 1: was that like?
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things I loved about Roger is
Speaker 2: his sense of humor, and he always maintained that even
Speaker 2: when he was feeling his worst, he found some way
Speaker 2: to bring humor.
Speaker 1: Do you remember, like some of the funny things he
Speaker 1: would do.
Speaker 2: He loved I Love Lucy, so he would often if
Speaker 2: we weren't watching I Love Lucy and reruns, then he
Speaker 2: was imitating Lucy or stealing her lines and delivering them
Speaker 2: in character. But you know, the TV show in general
Speaker 2: was something that he loved to watch.
Speaker 1: How was your relationship at this time? Do you think
Speaker 1: it sort of brought you closer together?
Speaker 2: I think it did bring us closer together because I
Speaker 2: knew that the clock was ticking, and I think that's
Speaker 2: what everybody was feeling once you were dealt, you know,
Speaker 2: in HIV's positive status, and we found ways to just
Speaker 2: spend more time with each other and cherish the those
Speaker 2: moments together because we didn't know what was ahead exactly.
Speaker 1: You know, knowing that his time was limited. What kind
Speaker 1: of conversations were you guys having at this point as
Speaker 1: his condition worsened.
Speaker 2: So I was not his first boyfriend. He had a
Speaker 2: boyfriend before we were together. But before the previous boyfriend,
Speaker 2: he was married to a woman. It was someone that
Speaker 2: he met in cosmetology school and they had a baby together.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And I don't know too much about their relationship other
Speaker 2: than that her family is a Mormon. She comes from
Speaker 2: a Mormon family. So once Roger was he came out,
Speaker 2: that made things a lot different, you know, his his
Speaker 2: relationship with the wife and with the family. So Roger
Speaker 2: and the person he was married to had a baby,
Speaker 2: be a son named Jason, and I think Jason was
Speaker 2: between seven and nine when they had to divorce or
Speaker 2: they separated, and at that point that Roger had no
Speaker 2: more contact with Jason. So it I can see, I
Speaker 2: can see, you know, because of their religion, because of
Speaker 2: their belief system. Why, you know, they wouldn't want to,
Speaker 2: you know, have someone that's an outsider.
Speaker 1: And so when he came out, they excommunicated him.
Speaker 2: Roger didn't go into the details of it, but at
Speaker 2: its core, yes, that's what happened, that he was excommunicated
Speaker 2: and no contact with Jason. Because Roger would talk about
Speaker 2: Jason and how much he missed him, and how much
Speaker 2: it really pained him that he was missing his son
Speaker 2: and missing out on Jason's childhood. He loved Jason, and
Speaker 2: that was quite clear to me, you know, especially with
Speaker 2: his with his status and you know, having HIV.
Speaker 3: He was afraid that.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't get to see Jason again. It was always
Speaker 2: painful for him to talk about Jason. I think Roger
Speaker 2: was hopeful that he would see Jason again at some point.
Speaker 3: Roger didn't know how long he was going to live.
Speaker 2: We felt that it would be short term, but he
Speaker 2: was hoping to see Jason before he died.
Speaker 1: Do you mind taking me through the moment when Roger's
Speaker 1: illness worsened.
Speaker 2: So Roger had been home for a few weeks from work,
Speaker 2: just bedridden, and I was taking care of him, and
Speaker 2: he was starting to I would, I want to say,
Speaker 2: babbel kind of talking things that didn't make sense to me,
Speaker 2: or it was not part of any conversation. I could
Speaker 2: hear exactly what he was saying, but to me it
Speaker 2: didn't make sense. But it made sense in the fact
Speaker 2: that my mom said the same things before she passed away.
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure if this is something that happens
Speaker 2: when people are closer to death. But it was a
Speaker 2: very strange coincidence, and I knew. I think I called
Speaker 2: the hospital and they said, just get him here to
Speaker 2: the hospital. I had to carry him. He was not
Speaker 2: even strong enough to walk. I had to carry him
Speaker 2: down three flights of stairs to the car. And the
Speaker 2: neighbors were also too gay, guys, same age, and I
Speaker 2: don't know if they could hear through the.
Speaker 3: Wall and what was going on.
Speaker 2: But I propped Roger up on a rail so I
Speaker 2: could lock the door, and I picked him up again,
Speaker 2: and the guys opened the door like just enough to
Speaker 2: look out, and I could see their eyes and I'm
Speaker 2: looking at them and I'm like terrified, holding Roger in
Speaker 2: my arms, and they'd shut the door like it was
Speaker 2: the plague, you know, in retrospect, I think that's just
Speaker 2: how the times were. Even gay people could shun other
Speaker 2: gain people as well, you know. So I'm carrying Roger
Speaker 2: down to the car. I get him in the car.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to keep him awake. He was very like
Speaker 2: weak and like ready to pass out. So we get
Speaker 2: Roger into the emergency room into a wheelchair, and someone
Speaker 2: went to go look at Roger and his lips were blue,
Speaker 2: and so they're like, okay. They immediately put him in
Speaker 2: the back and they they intubated him and they had
Speaker 2: to strap him down, and it was it was kind
Speaker 2: of a horrible moment to seeing him, you know, in
Speaker 2: such a weak state and barely breathing and getting you know,
Speaker 2: not getting enough oxygen and and he pulled the tube out,
Speaker 2: so they that's why they tied him down, and they
Speaker 2: induced coma at that point. And so that was basically
Speaker 2: the last time that we could look at each other,
Speaker 2: and and so where we were aware of each other,
Speaker 2: it hope, face to face. And uh so, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't remember how many days he was in the hospital,
Speaker 2: but it.
Speaker 3: Wasn't more than a week.
Speaker 2: And you know, they were, I think taking all the
Speaker 2: care they could that they knew all the steps they
Speaker 2: needed to take to keep him alive.
Speaker 3: And he died of pneumonia.
Speaker 2: And I remember just being in the room and just
Speaker 2: I mean I was almost at peace myself because he
Speaker 2: was at peace. So his mom and dad were there,
Speaker 2: and his mom asked me, she pulled me to the
Speaker 2: side and asked, you know, what did Roger want? Were
Speaker 2: his wishes, and I told her that he wanted to
Speaker 2: be created, and she just nodded her head and said, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, and.
Speaker 3: We said goodbye.
Speaker 2: And you know, I found out immediately they left the
Speaker 2: hospital and right to the mortuary, to the to the
Speaker 2: cemetery where his uncle worked. They weren't going to cremate him.
Speaker 2: They were going to bury him. So I got in
Speaker 2: touch with with Roger's ex wife and explained to her
Speaker 2: what Roger wanted, and she agreed to sign over a
Speaker 2: power of attorney to me for Roger's body. So I
Speaker 2: had now I have control over Roger's body or what
Speaker 2: happens to his body at this point. And it just
Speaker 2: kept going on and on, and they were fighting me,
Speaker 2: and they were calling me, and they were, you know, like,
Speaker 2: I don't remember why, but I finally I just gave in.
Speaker 3: I just I couldn't.
Speaker 2: It was about two to three weeks later, and I
Speaker 2: just couldn't take it anymore. So he was buried and
Speaker 2: not cremated. It was just a difficult time, and I
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking clearly, and I just wasn't adult enough to
Speaker 2: know what to do. By that time, I was twenty
Speaker 2: four years old.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well, you know it. It's funny that you mentioned
Speaker 1: the fact that you were twenty four when all of
Speaker 1: this was going on. That is such a young tender
Speaker 1: age to be navigating things like death and a state
Speaker 1: planning and funerals and power of attorney. I was wondering,
Speaker 1: I am wondering, how did you sort of manage all
Speaker 1: of that and grieve at the same time during that
Speaker 1: period at twenty four years old.
Speaker 3: So I had a dream about Roger.
Speaker 2: This was probably within a month after he passed away,
Speaker 2: and he was dressed in all white in an all
Speaker 2: white room, and he just sort of like appeared. He
Speaker 2: gave me a hug, and he didn't talk, but I
Speaker 2: could hear his thoughts, and he said that everything was
Speaker 2: going to be okay. And then and that we were
Speaker 2: just embraced with each other the moment in which he
Speaker 2: visited me, and it felt like it felt as real
Speaker 2: as possible, like it just felt like we had touched
Speaker 2: but that he came to me and said that everything
Speaker 2: was going to be okay, and I believed him.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 2: Another parallel was that I had the same dream with
Speaker 2: my mom when my mom passed away, that she told
Speaker 2: me that everything would be okay. It wasn't the same
Speaker 2: dream they were, you know, a few years apart, but
Speaker 2: it was the same type of dream where they each
Speaker 2: told me that it would be okay, and there was
Speaker 2: an embrace and that it just felt peaceful.
Speaker 1: So while you're going through the grieving process, at this point,
Speaker 1: you haven't gotten tested. Were you wanting to get tested now?
Speaker 2: I didn't feel it was so urgent. I assumed I'm
Speaker 2: HIV positive too, so I was just kind of waiting
Speaker 2: for myself to get sick. So after I must have
Speaker 2: been about two years, I decided to after Rogers passing away,
Speaker 2: to go get tested. And so when I went to
Speaker 2: get tested and I got my results, they were negative,
Speaker 2: but still I was not convinced that.
Speaker 3: I was HIV negative.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, this is maybe there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with the test or faulty test and whatnot. And then
Speaker 2: I got tested a second and third time within the
Speaker 2: next year, and they were again negative. I didn't understand
Speaker 2: how it sort of changed my perspective on life. I
Speaker 2: think I just felt like more like a second chance
Speaker 2: in a way, you know, to like, Okay, now I
Speaker 2: can really live my life.
Speaker 1: When we come back. Chris hears from Roger's son, Jason,
Speaker 1: thirty years after Roger's death. After Roger's death, Chris was
Speaker 1: be getting to move forward. Learning that his HIV status
Speaker 1: was negative gave him a renewed outlook on life, but
Speaker 1: there was still some unfinished business. Roger had a child, Jason,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to leave him several things, photos that
Speaker 1: he had framed, his ring mementos. Chris had no idea,
Speaker 1: but Jason didn't know much about his dad at all.
Speaker 1: Roger had died when Jason was just nine years old,
Speaker 1: but Jason didn't find that out until he was in
Speaker 1: high school, when he just so happened to stumble upon
Speaker 1: his father's death certificate at home. Later on, he found
Speaker 1: out through a family member that Roger had died of
Speaker 1: AIDS related complications. He had always hoped to meet his
Speaker 1: dad one day, so the discovery was a shock. He
Speaker 1: did manage to get in contact with Roger's mother, but
Speaker 1: she didn't give him very much information about Chris, only
Speaker 1: that Roger had a partner when he died. Jason's search
Speaker 1: for his dad was also a source subject at home.
Speaker 1: His mom's family would shut him down anytime he asked
Speaker 1: about his father. He was told that Roger wasn't a
Speaker 1: great person. Chris didn't know any of this, but he
Speaker 1: knew that one day he wanted to give Jason the
Speaker 1: things his father had left for him.
Speaker 2: So, you know, I put everything that meant something to
Speaker 2: Roger and Jason.
Speaker 3: I put them in a box.
Speaker 2: Roger had different things that were Jason's and they didn't
Speaker 2: mean too much to me, but they meant something because
Speaker 2: they meant something to Roger. I kept the box for
Speaker 2: thirty years because I knew that I had to get
Speaker 2: those things to Jason, and I knew that I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be able to get those to Jason as a child.
Speaker 2: How come, Well, if I remember correctly, the time that
Speaker 2: I did talk to his ex wife, she wanted to
Speaker 2: distance herself from the whole situation.
Speaker 1: So you weren't able to get to Jason.
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, I knew that I would somehow meet him
Speaker 2: as an adult.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 2: I had faith in that that I wouldn't meet up
Speaker 2: with Jason. I didn't know how, I didn't know where
Speaker 2: and when, but I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: do that. I never give up hope. I just I
Speaker 2: knew it would happen. That's why I didn't feel urgent.
Speaker 2: I just moved ahead, knowing that at some point I
Speaker 2: I would meet Jason.
Speaker 1: As the Internet became popular, Chris would sometimes search for Jason,
Speaker 1: but he didn't have very much information to go off of.
Speaker 1: He just had to trust the feeling that one day
Speaker 1: they'd eventually meet. So did you ever find Jason?
Speaker 2: So in December twenty twenty, it was just a regular
Speaker 2: day of you know, pandemic life. I was on Instagram
Speaker 2: and there's an account that I followed called the AIDS Memorial.
Speaker 2: Folks will submit a photo, photos of a loved one,
Speaker 2: someone they cared about that passed away from AIDS, and
Speaker 2: they write a story, a brief story, and there's thousands
Speaker 2: of posts. So I'm scrolling and I see Roger's photo
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh cool, somebody posted about Roger
Speaker 2: and I was like wow, And I thought immediately that
Speaker 2: it was one of his friends. And I start reading it,
Speaker 2: and then I realized that it's Jason because he starts
Speaker 2: talking about his dad.
Speaker 1: Can you read the post, Chris of you don't mind?
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to honor my dad who lost his
Speaker 2: life to AIDS. Sadly, I don't know a lot of
Speaker 2: information about him. He passed away when I was just
Speaker 2: a kid. His name was Roger Vasquez. My father passed
Speaker 2: away when I was about seven years old. He had
Speaker 2: a rough life up until then. He was trying to
Speaker 2: discover who he was as a closeted gay man. Before
Speaker 2: he died, he found a man who loved him for
Speaker 2: who he was. That man took care of him until
Speaker 2: he passed away in nineteen ninety. This picture is one
Speaker 2: of the only pictures I have left of my father,
Speaker 2: and I will cherish it. Dad, you are loved and
Speaker 2: you are missed, Signed Jason, And so it's just one
Speaker 2: photo of him, and Jason is a toddler and Roger's
Speaker 2: holding him.
Speaker 1: How did you feel when you saw that post?
Speaker 2: Well, when he started talking about me, I was in shock.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, immediately a lot of emotions came back.
Speaker 2: It just it was this flood of emotion and thoughts
Speaker 2: and memories and feelings and anything that had to do
Speaker 2: with us over the years, all the things that I
Speaker 2: missed about Roger and all the moments I wished Roger
Speaker 2: was still alive. And so it took me about four
Speaker 2: or five days after seeing the post for me to
Speaker 2: process everything. It was a little difficult those few days
Speaker 2: because it brought everything back to life. And so so
Speaker 2: I pulled myself together. And you know, four or five
Speaker 2: days later and I DM Jason and say, hi, Jason,
Speaker 2: I saw your beautiful post about your dad Roger. I
Speaker 2: have some information about him. Shoot me a text so
Speaker 2: we can figure out a time to chat. Looking forward
Speaker 2: to hearing from you, Chris, and I gave my phone number.
Speaker 1: Oh so you you didn't say anything about you being
Speaker 1: the lover that he was.
Speaker 3: To No, No, I didn't want I didn't want to like,
Speaker 3: just like casually just put it in a DM. Wow,
Speaker 3: and uh.
Speaker 2: Probably that same night, he says, hello, did you know him?
Speaker 2: I said yes, I did.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Were you close to him? And I said yes, you
Speaker 2: can say that. And then I sent a photo of
Speaker 2: Roger and Jason replied, Wow, that's incredible. I've always seen
Speaker 2: the same three photos I have of him. He had
Speaker 2: not seen that photo I sent to him. And then
Speaker 2: I told him we were boyfriends for the last two
Speaker 2: years of his life. I'm the one you've been looking
Speaker 2: for and vice versa. And then I sent him a
Speaker 2: photo of the two of us when we were when
Speaker 2: we were pretty young, and he says, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: I've been trying to find info about you for a
Speaker 2: long time. His mother would never give me your name,
Speaker 2: and I'm not surprised. She was never nice to me.
Speaker 1: So he didn't have any information about his dad, right.
Speaker 2: They didn't really talk well about Roger after he died.
Speaker 2: They really didn't want anything to do with Roger.
Speaker 3: And they never.
Speaker 2: Really spoke about Roger as far as I know. They
Speaker 2: didn't speak well about him, and it was farm view
Speaker 2: between so Jason had little information.
Speaker 1: Despite being kept away from each other for thirty years
Speaker 1: by both Roger's parent and Jason's parent. Fate had other plans.
Speaker 1: Chris and Jason were both excited to finally meet. They
Speaker 1: didn't see each other right away, though this felt like
Speaker 1: it was going to be monumental and they didn't want
Speaker 1: to rush anything. But on a trip back to La
Speaker 1: Chris felt like this was the right time. So now
Speaker 1: tell me about what it was like the first time
Speaker 1: meeting Jason.
Speaker 2: It took it about two years for us to meet
Speaker 2: in person, and we had planned it. I was taking
Speaker 2: a trip down to LA and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: I ping Jason and said let's meet. Let's find a
Speaker 2: time in a day. And he came to my friend's
Speaker 2: house and he's like, I'm here. So I went downstairs
Speaker 2: and I saw Jason. You could tell that that he
Speaker 2: was Roger's.
Speaker 3: Son, you know, no doubt.
Speaker 2: And then when I hugged Jason, it felt like I
Speaker 2: was hugging Roger. I think he's maybe even a little taller,
Speaker 2: but it just felt like like Roger. I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe Roger was just there, just like you know, a
Speaker 2: group hug. And we went down the street to go
Speaker 2: have lunch, to just kind of like ease into what
Speaker 2: we were about to get into. In Los Angeles, there's
Speaker 2: a park and in the park there's an AIDS memorial
Speaker 2: called Lost Memorias. The official title is Last Memorials the Wall,
Speaker 2: So it's this wall of folks that have died of AIDS.
Speaker 2: So I submitted Roger's name and he was part of
Speaker 2: the first cohort of names being added to the wall.
Speaker 2: The plan was also to go to the memorial at
Speaker 2: the park so I could show Jason. And before we
Speaker 2: went to the park, I went back to my friend's
Speaker 2: house to grab the box of things to take them,
Speaker 2: and so when we got to the park, I took
Speaker 2: the box and we found a place to go sit down.
Speaker 2: We looked at the memorial, found his name, and I
Speaker 2: brought the box out and was pulling things out one
Speaker 2: at a time.
Speaker 3: And giving them to him.
Speaker 2: And this is the first time him seeing things that
Speaker 2: were his dad, or something that his dad touched. Even
Speaker 2: there was one of them was a photo of the
Speaker 2: two of them that it was a photo that Roger
Speaker 2: put in the frame, and that photo had stayed in
Speaker 2: there all those years, so it was exactly how Roger
Speaker 2: left it. I explained to Jason once I gave him
Speaker 2: the items, how much pain his dad was in that
Speaker 2: he couldn't visit his son or have contact with his
Speaker 2: son knowing that he was going to die. Like, your
Speaker 2: dad missed you, he loved you, and it was painful.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you to give him the
Speaker 1: box that you'd been holding onto for thirty years.
Speaker 2: I felt emotional about it because I had been holding
Speaker 2: on to this thing, this box for me, it was
Speaker 2: a duty, it was responsibility to do that for the
Speaker 2: two of them. Giving Jason the box and holding onto
Speaker 2: the box of items for that long was just one
Speaker 2: of the last things that I could do for Roger too,
Speaker 2: because Roger wasn't able to have contact with Jason.
Speaker 3: I just felt like I had to do that. I
Speaker 3: had to do that for Roger.
Speaker 2: And you know, also reading Jason's story on Instagram, he
Speaker 2: only had three photos, the same three photos over all
Speaker 2: these years, and you know, I've got a box full
Speaker 2: of pictures, you know, having fun and you know, pictures
Speaker 2: of Roger with his family.
Speaker 1: And what was it like for Jason to receive all
Speaker 1: of your words and the memories and the photos.
Speaker 2: Jason was grateful, he was he was happy to have
Speaker 2: those things again. He was, you know, gracious that that
Speaker 2: I held onto everything and that I, you know, brought
Speaker 2: them to him and that we found each other, and
Speaker 2: you know that I was filling in a lot of
Speaker 2: the story that he didn't know about his dad.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about Roger now, thirty plus years later,
Speaker 1: after having this amazing experience and sort of being able
Speaker 1: to turn the page on that chapter.
Speaker 2: Rogers, He's just always been a constant in my life.
Speaker 2: Even you know, I've had long term partners and they've
Speaker 2: always known about Roger. Because I just feel like Roger's
Speaker 2: a Guardian Angel. You know, along with my mom, I
Speaker 2: always feel that they're with me. And you know, when
Speaker 2: I'm doing something happier, when I'm dancing to house music,
Speaker 2: a lot of times I think about him. You know,
Speaker 2: He'll pop in my mind in different moments, like making
Speaker 2: my mom's recipe of chicken enchiladas and and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: I remember making them for Roger too. So it's just
Speaker 2: all these things are sort of strung together. And I
Speaker 2: still make those inciladas today, and so I think about
Speaker 2: the two of them.
Speaker 4: I always think about them.
Speaker 1: But We Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolves, new
Speaker 1: episodes every Wednesday. If you want to write in to
Speaker 1: tell your story, email us at Buttweloved at gmail dot com,
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Speaker 1: Podcast Network and iHeart Podcast. But We Loved was originally
Speaker 1: developed with Pushkin Studios. Our producers are Shehina Zaki, Michael June,
Speaker 1: Emily Meronoff, and Joey patt Our Executive producers or me,
Speaker 1: Maya Howard and Katrina Norville. Fact checking by Marisa Brown.
Speaker 1: Original music by Steve Boone Special thanks to Jay Brunson
Speaker 1: and Markel Willis. If you loved this episode, leave us
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Speaker 1: thank you for listening. I'll see you next week.