1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Wow, murder, sex, love, illicit relationships. 2 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: This story has it all, but sadly, it's not a story, 3 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: It's real. The case of Pamela Smart. How can we 4 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: ever forget Pamela Smart. Pan Smart was a twenty two 5 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: year old high school media coordinator when she started as 6 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: they call it affair, I call it statutory rape with 7 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: a teen boy just fifteen at the time, who later 8 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: shot and killed Smart's husband, Gregory Smart. In the last days, 9 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Pamela Smart goes to court demanding that her sentence be reduced. 10 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: Needless to say, let me give you the spoiler alert 11 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: on that the court could see straight through Pamela Smart's 12 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: claim and this time, unlike so many other times, she 13 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: wasn't wearing see through laingerie. This woman needs to be 14 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: behind bars and that's where she must stay. I Nancy Grace, 15 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 16 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Series. Yes, the court heard 17 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: pam Smarts lawyers drone on and on. Having exhausted her 18 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: judicial appeal options, Smart return for a third time to 19 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: an elected state council seeking a sentence reduction. The five 20 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: member Executive Council rejected her latest request in less than 21 00:01:54,040 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: three minutes, prompting another appeal to the State Supreme Court. 22 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: The justices have just dismissed Pamela Smart's petition, claiming it 23 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: would violate separation of powers, the separation of powers of 24 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: courts between the courts and the government. That would be 25 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: the executive branch in the judicial branch. As we all know, 26 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: there are three branches of government. One is executive that 27 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: would be like government officials such as the president or 28 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: this council. The second would be the judicial branch, which 29 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: of course includes judges. The third branch is the elective branch, 30 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: and that would be Congress, House of Representatives, as well 31 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: as those same counterparts at state level. So the court's ruling, 32 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: after yet another appeal by Pamela Smart, is that to 33 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: grant her most recent appeal would be violative of the 34 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: separation of powers. Why did they say that because her 35 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: last appeal went to an executive branch council. All the 36 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: legal mumbo jumbo aside. How in the hey are we 37 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,119 Speaker 1: back in court with Pamela Smart? Where did the whole 38 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: thing start? Let's start at the beginning. I went into 39 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: the garage and I went up to the house, and 40 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: I noticed that the outside lights weren't on, and I 41 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: remember thinking that that was odd because Greg usually left 42 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: him on when he knew that I was going to 43 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: be late. But you know, I didn't think there was 44 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: anything major. I just remember thinking it was odd. I 45 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: walked up the steps and I put the key in 46 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: the door, and when I pushed the door open, I 47 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: turned on the lake and I saw great. Well. It 48 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: all happened in the manner of like not even a second. 49 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: I don't think. I remember seeing things near him, like 50 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: a candlestick and a pillowing, and I remember I thought. 51 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: The first thing I thought was to go get help, 52 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: and I said, I said Greg, Greg's name, and he didn't. 53 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: He didn't answer, and I ran out. It all happened 54 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: really fast. Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was a freshman 55 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: in college who loved to party, and she was instantly 56 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down 57 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling 58 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: his hair. With his rocker haircut and boy's smile, Twenty 59 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: year old Greg was just Pam's time. Greg was a 60 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: great guy, and if somebody said, hey, let's go away, 61 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: for the weekend, and it was Friday night he would go. 62 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: He always lived like that. Greg was also known as 63 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: a ladies man. Greg was seeing, as usual a bunch 64 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: of other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to 65 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: flock to him. But soon after Greg met Pam, he 66 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: began to change his ways and settle down. Over time, 67 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: it's slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was 68 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to 69 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: write poems and she sent me a lot of them. 70 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January 71 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted. And that is how 72 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: it all started at a party when she was just 73 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: eighteen years old. How did it all end in murder? 74 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to break it down 75 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: and put it back together again. Doctor Daniel Bober Forensics psychiatrists, 76 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: joining us all the way from Rome. Doctor Michelle Dupree, 77 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Joseph 78 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, an 79 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Ashley Willcott, judge, 80 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: trial lawyer and anchor It as Olcott dot com Right 81 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: now to crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave Matt. 82 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: Dave explain to me, when Pama Smart gets home, what 83 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: does she find in her home? She finds her husband 84 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: of less than one year on the ground and the 85 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: apartment apparently in disarray. He's on the ground what appears 86 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: to be a gunshot wound to the head. Police suddenly 87 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: have three suspects in the murder, seventeen year old j R. 88 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: Lattimy and his friends sixteen year old Pete Randolph and 89 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: sixteen year old Billy Flynn. There are kind of a 90 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: rough group of kids. They had been involved in some 91 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: minor crimes, but petty crime is one thing. Could they 92 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: really have committed a murder? It doesn't take long for 93 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: detectives to identify a possible link between the three boys 94 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: and Gregg Smart his wife Pam. The teenagers are students 95 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: that want a kind of high school. We're Panela Smart works. 96 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: Two of the boys are students in her media course. 97 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: They were making a video together. Ham Smart was the coordinator. 98 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: The kids are the talent. Two of the high school 99 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: students are in her class. That's a connection. You're hearing 100 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: our friends at Real Crime, Real Story with Aaron Brockovich. 101 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: So they're all kids, they're all teens. In Flynn, the 102 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: sixteen year old reportedly was more than just a student. 103 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: She sat me down in a chair. What did you say? 104 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: She said, I think I'm in love with Bill? And 105 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: what did you say to that? I laughed? It was ridiculous. 106 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: It was ridiculous. Why would ridiculous? Because she was married, 107 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: she was twenty two? What did she do when you laugh? 108 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: She just kept telling me over and over again, I'm serious. 109 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: So what happened after that? I'm bout a week clan 110 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: as she told them, did you have any of her problem? 111 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: I told Bill Pam wanted to see him. And you 112 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: say about a week later she told Bill audio was 113 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: a week later. I'm not positive that's when she she 114 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week later. 115 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: You are hearing who I believe to be the star 116 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: witness in the case, Cecilia Pierce. Now, Pam's smart, the 117 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: teacher and her twinies, takes this teen girl under her wing, 118 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: so to speak. But then when she says you could 119 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Brad, thank you serious? I 120 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it, 121 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: I have it done. Then how much? How often were 122 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time? 123 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: At first I was just like every few days and 124 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of days 125 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: would she be talking about? What was going on? So 126 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: filing what they had discussed last period, her and Bill 127 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon, things like 128 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and twea dot clothes 129 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's 130 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: getting very, very involved, an intricate planning, going so far 131 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: as to what they would wear, what to do with 132 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: their hair when the incident, the murder would take place. 133 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what 134 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: really links Pamela Smart to her husband Gregg's murder? Well, 135 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: actually the police, with Celia Peers, they actually wired her up. 136 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: She agreed to help the police because she just couldn't 137 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: stand this anymore. And actually pam Smart gave her own 138 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: incriminating statement. They picked it up on the wire where 139 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: she actually said, if you tell the police, but you know, 140 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: we're all going to be locked in the slammer time 141 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, 142 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: I guess we've all heard of the movie To Die For, 143 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: starring the awesome Nicole Kidman as Pamela Smart, who started 144 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: a quote love affair aka statutory rate with a teen 145 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: boys student who she convinces to murder her husband in 146 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: the last days, Pamela Smart's most recent and latest bid 147 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: for sentence reduction has been a throne out why the 148 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: State Attorney General's office, of course, has opposed the commutation 149 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: of her sentence from the start. She's not getting out 150 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: early because she has never accepted full responsibility, or basically 151 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: any responsibility for the murder. So when you go before 152 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: an appeals court or a parole hearing, one of the 153 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: things they look for is did you admit what happened? 154 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: Do you regret it is their remorse? Do you take 155 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: responsibility in order to ensure that once you do get out, 156 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: you won't do it again? Well, Paula Smart has yet 157 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: to accept responsibility for the murder of her husband. She 158 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: still blames the whole thing on others. Yes, she's earned 159 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: two master's degree. Yes, she's earned two master's degrees behind bars, 160 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: Yes she has tutored fellow inmates. Yes, she has been 161 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 1: ordained a minister and as part of an inmate liaison committee. 162 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: In her latest petition, she says she's sorry and she's 163 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: fully rehabilitated, but according to authorities, she has never accepted responsibility. 164 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at WMU R nine, 165 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: Smart was asking the Executive counsel for a hearing where 166 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: she could petition for the possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew 167 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: Volinski was concerned about her lack of responsibility for what happened. 168 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: If she's unable to come to terms with that, that 169 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: creates concerns for me. Okay, wait a minute, come to 170 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: terms with murder. Okay, we're hearing all of this, but 171 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: how did it all start? How are we at this 172 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: point today? Take a listen to our clip free our 173 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: friends at Investigation Discovery, Pam dreamed of a career in television. 174 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: She was struggling to try to find a job as 175 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: a reporter, which is what she really wanted to do. Instead, 176 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: she landed a job as the media services director for 177 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: the local school district or. Her response abilities included making 178 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: educational videos. One of the projects that she had decided 179 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: to do was some kind of a documentary which would 180 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: involve some of the kids in the surrounding high school, 181 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: and that was going to be about self esteem. She 182 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: worked closely with student volunteers, including fifteen year old Cecilia Pierce. 183 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce was pamla Smart student intern, and she became 184 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: a really close friend in Confident, which was a little unusual. 185 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: Long haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is 186 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: an aspiring rock musician. He plays electric guitar, and he's 187 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: got long hair. He is exactly what her husband Greg 188 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: used to be. I'm going to go to a special 189 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: guest joining us today from Oxygen dot com true crime 190 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: author Hell and the Heartland whoa murder and math in 191 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: the case of two missing girls. I'm on it, Jackson Miller, 192 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. Tell me about Pam Smart 193 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: and husband Greg smarts relationship. And it's kind of freaky 194 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: that she then takes a liking to a boy, a 195 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: teen boy in her class at school. That's just like Greg, 196 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: except a newer model. I'm gonna call in a shrink 197 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: on that. But tell me, jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart? 198 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: How did she grow up? Where is this place, Darry, 199 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, and who is Greg smart. Well, it's funny 200 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: that you use the word story book before, because Derry, 201 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: New Hampshire is that story book setting. It's that full 202 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: foliage in New England. It's the church people's poking out. 203 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: It's a town of like thirty four thousand. Oh wait, hey, 204 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: you know what you just made me think of. Sure, 205 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: you know those calendars that have Jackie shaking her hand. Yes, 206 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: there's calendars, and it's a nature and outdoors and now 207 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: hosts a beautiful fall foliage picture and then they'll have 208 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: a spire poking up with a cross on the top 209 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: of a church spire in the middle of it. It's 210 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: just gorgeous. That's what you made me think of, jack 211 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: That's exactly what it was. And you know, it's it's 212 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: really nice because it's only like forty five minutes away 213 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: from Boston, so it's a nice alternative for people who 214 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: don't want the hustle bustle of the city. But it's 215 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: just like it's just like that that that story book 216 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: setting what you see on TV. It's it's that perfect 217 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: New England image. In fact, Robert Frost was from there. 218 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: I believe really. Yeah, yeah, it's it's really true. How 219 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: big of a town is dairy need Hapshire. So it's 220 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: a it's about thirty four thousand people and it's right 221 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: in between Manchester and Salem. And like I said, it's 222 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: it's it's not the big city, but it's close enough 223 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: to the big city. Um. It's really just like the 224 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: perfect all American town. And um yeah that's where That's 225 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: where Greg and Pam were and they had this this 226 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: rock and roll marriage. It was it was kind of 227 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: perfect in a way. And I say that as a 228 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: metal head myself, of course, but it was that perfect headbanging, 229 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, rock and roll. They had a dog named Halen, 230 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, very very rock and roll, but it seemed 231 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: very loving on the outside. Okay, how I'm just drinking 232 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: out of the fire hydrant here. It's just too much, 233 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: too fast. I'm sorry. Okay, the quote perfect head banger 234 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: rock and roll marriage, you know, I hadn't really thought 235 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: about it like that. Let me go to you first, 236 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: Karen Stark, New York Psychologists joining us in Manhattan today. Karen, I, 237 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: first of all, I don't think I've ever seen anyone 238 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: that reminds me of my husband in his youth. But 239 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of freaky. It's like thinking considering replacing your 240 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: husband with a younger version of your husband. What does 241 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: that mean? You know what makes me think of Nancy? 242 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: Not a younger David, but somebody who isn't committed to 243 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:58,479 Speaker 1: the relationship, is not really capable of attaching having commitments. 244 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: And when we think about younger version, we're not talking 245 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: about somebody who's a few years younger. We're talking about 246 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's like pedophilia. Well, 247 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: you know, if you all weren't awake before you hear pedophilia, 248 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just to put it ephemistically, 249 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: you have seen your share of divorce cases, have you ever? 250 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: Of course, we always hear of men, no offense, men 251 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: marrying a younger woman. Don't usually hear of women marrying 252 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: a younger guy, dumping their husbands for a younger guy. 253 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: But I guess it does happen. But a long story short, 254 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, and all the divorces you've seen, have you 255 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: seen a woman replace her husband for a younger version 256 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: of the husband. Are you asking me if I've seen 257 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: a woman replace their husband for a child. Never, because 258 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: that's exactly what Pam's I'm asking you, have you seen 259 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: a woman replace her husband with a younger version. I 260 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: don't mean just a younger guy. I mean somebody that looks, talks, acts, 261 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: walks like the husband, but younger. That's pretty rare. I 262 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: don't care that a lot, right, I see them going 263 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: to the opposite everybody. Jack's joining us from oxygen dot com. Jacks. 264 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: What exactly was her position at the high school? So 265 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: Pam worked at Winnikin at high school where she was 266 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: a media director. She did have high school interns working 267 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: with her, including Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a 268 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: media director. She was an employee. She was about twenty 269 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: two years old, and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now, 270 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: what does media director be? Because I understand she went 271 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: off on a tangent making some type of a documentary 272 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: with the students. Is that correct? Yeah, she made a 273 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: documentary about self esteem. I think she was trying to 274 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: improve esteem with her students, which is kind of ironic 275 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: given the whole situation, but that's what she did. She 276 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: would make these videos and involve the students very first 277 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: high profile cases involved a sex affair. As they call 278 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: it again, I can't say enough. It's statutory rape between 279 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: a school staff member and a student. Then Joyce Maynard 280 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: wrote to Die For, drawing from the Smart case. Then 281 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: that inspired a film same name, to Die For, starring 282 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman and Joaquin Phoenix. Okay, the killer William Flynn 283 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: and three other teams cooperated with prosecutor, struck a deal, 284 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: and they serve shorter sentences. They have already been released now. 285 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: Most recently, several of Smart supporters travel to New Hampshire 286 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: to hear the court discuss the case. They all wore 287 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: pink t shirts with the words enough is enough on them. 288 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: You know what would really help if they could talk 289 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: her into accepting responsibility. Tell me, Dave Mack, what happens 290 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: at trial with all the other co conspirators, the boyfriend, 291 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: his friends, the prosecution cut deals with just about with 292 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: everybody except Pam Smart. At trial, Billy Flynn testified, as 293 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: did Patrick Randall, Jael A lot of me. They all 294 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: testified as to their specific roles in this crime, and 295 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: they all had deals negotiated with the prosecution because ultimately 296 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: the prosecution determined early on if not for Pam Smart 297 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: orchestrating all of this, it would not have happened. She's 298 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: even admitted as much that it was her relationship with 299 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: Billy that cost Greg's life. It's just a matter of 300 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: what the police have indicated, they've built their case around, 301 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: is that she was the instigator of everything. And at trial, 302 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: Billy Flynn was an incredibly credible witness. He cried on 303 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: the stand and I'll never forget actually seeing him when 304 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: the prosecutors said what was what did you say? And 305 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: he said, right before I shot him, I pointed the 306 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: gun at his head and I said, God, please forgive me, 307 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: and it pulled the trigger. So Billy Flynn admits to 308 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: what happened. Take a listen. Are the man who spent 309 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: decades in prison or his role in the sex and 310 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: murder scandal that rocked it in the Hampshire community is 311 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: an a freeman? All of this unfolding in the overnight hours. 312 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: Billy Flynn was just sixteen years old when he and 313 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: a friend killed his high school teacher's husband. He was 314 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: granted parole in March. A rather bizarre scene overnight at 315 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: the prison where Flynn spent the last twenty five years 316 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: of his life. What you heard was other inmates cheering 317 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: as a convicted killer left by the back door. At 318 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: his parole hearing. Flynn apologized to the family of Greg Smart. 319 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: He says he hopes to find a job after earning 320 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: his degree while in prison, but he knows that will 321 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: be difficult. Dave Matt Billy fan Leigh's prison. He's the 322 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: trigger person. He admitted to what he did. What did 323 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: the co conspirator do? What was his part? What did 324 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: the others do? Not? Pam Smart. Patrick Randall was sentenced 325 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: to the same thing as Billy Flynn. He was right 326 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: there inside the home with Billy Flynn when it took place, 327 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: when the shooting occurred, and he got the same type 328 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now, they did have 329 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: a co conspirator who was the getaway driver. His name 330 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: was Vance Ladimy. He was sentenced to life in prison 331 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: as an accomplice and he was let out of jail 332 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the same thing. 333 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: They did have one of the co conspirator that was 334 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: Raymond Fowler. He actually just waited in the car. Okay, 335 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: he was there with him again. Two boys went inside, 336 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: Billy and Patrick Vance and Raymond stayed in the car, 337 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: but they were all part of this conspiracy. Raymond Fowler 338 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: was charged with conspiracy and attempted burglary and he was 339 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison as well, but he was also released 340 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend 341 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: as we call him, admitting that he said God forgive 342 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: me and then pulls a trigger, he admits that what 343 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: about Pam Smart Dave Mack? Has she ever admitted she 344 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband? No, 345 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: you know, the only thing she's even come close to 346 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: admitting in terms of guilt is she actually and this 347 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: is a real problem, She's never admitted her role. She's 348 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: never admitted what they proved in court beyond the shadow 349 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: of a doubt. Her only comment, and this is what 350 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: she says, by and this is a direct quote, although 351 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: I never wanted nor asked mister Flynn to murder Greg. 352 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: I will forever carry the blame and guilt. And that's 353 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: the one statement from her that has a you know, 354 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: where she claims that, yeah, she's guilty, but not for 355 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,239 Speaker 1: asking him to do it. She's guilty because she had 356 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact, 357 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: listen to Pam Smart and day after day after game, 358 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: just as negativity and unchanced about me and tearing me apart. 359 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: I think that I'm not the defense shut down and 360 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: be come from a family where we learned to deal 361 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: with whatever problems happened by just remaining strong and expanding 362 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: strong and not being like weak and wiles, so to speak, 363 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: over whatever happened. I'm more of a private person what 364 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: I deal with my own pain, on own emotion. So 365 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: for me to be only twenty two years old attempts 366 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: to be twenty four at the time and have what 367 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: I thought was my whole future with him just completely 368 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: obliterated and having to deal at such a young age 369 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: with funeral and weight, and then the fact that Bill 370 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: fin was arrested and I had relationship to the parent, 371 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: and then finding out that it looked like he did 372 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: it or his friends did it, and then I was arrested. 373 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,479 Speaker 1: It was just that one thing after another after another, 374 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: and I think part of my being able to survive 375 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: with me being completely shut Wow. Okay, so it's all 376 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: about her. To doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists, joining us. 377 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: Even now, it's still all about how this affected her life, 378 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: how her future was quote obliterated. Not once. Do you 379 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: hear her talk about the victim, Greg, Of course yes, 380 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: because she's a malignant narcissist. All she cares about is herself, 381 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: her fame, her recognition. That's what it was about all 382 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: the time, and that's what it's about now. Okay, it's 383 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: not just that. Listen to this, Pam Smart in her 384 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: own words, you could not for anything but the journey 385 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: was doing. Was reading a transcript but we don't even 386 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: know her how transcribe from their boat, and as I 387 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: was to hear pieces of it and I was reading 388 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: their accommodation, but on the page, I was honesting that 389 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: there were things that were attributed to me that it 390 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: was actually hear talking on things that were attendited to learn. 391 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: It was actually me talking because our voices sounded similar 392 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: on me because they were so horrible. And after what 393 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: happened too, is that when you have a conversation, even 394 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: like that I'm having with you right now, you're interjecting 395 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: in my conversation saying right, yes, that's what we do 396 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: when we have conversation. Right on the paper, like she's saying, oh, 397 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: so you wanted Great dead? And then I say yeah, 398 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: but that's that's not how the conversation was going. It 399 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: wasn't a response to necessarily whatever, you just go. It 400 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: was just a natural course of listening to a person 401 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: and saying yeah, okay. I don't think I would even 402 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: say yeah okay if someone mentioned I want my husband dead, 403 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: which of course I don't, not until I renew that 404 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: life insurance policy. But aside from that, what a bunch 405 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: of bs. All this time later, she's still attacking the 406 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: transcript and so you know what that means. That means 407 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: that that is what convicted her. That's what she's angry about. 408 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: To doctor Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists. All this time later, 409 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation 410 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong. 411 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: Does she not remember the jury heard it for themselves, 412 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: they were reading it, And not only that, Cecilia Pierce 413 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: testified and said what they talked about and what happened 414 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean, 415 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: doctor Bober. She's still festering over the taps and she's 416 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well, 417 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed. 418 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: But you know, it's sort of one of those what 419 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: about is m's like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this, 420 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: but what about this? This is what this person did 421 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: to me. So again, it's all about her, and that's 422 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: the focus, all about her time stories with Nancy Grace. 423 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: Pam Smart. Supporters say, and I quote, Pamela is like 424 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: an icon in a sense, meaning she has life with 425 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: no parole and when things are tough, you remember Pamela. Okay, 426 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: that was said by supporter Santiago, who was also behind 427 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: bars and did time with Pamela's Smart. Her name Vanessa Santiago. 428 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: But I don't go along with that. When times are 429 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: tough for me, I don't remember Pamela Smart, all right. 430 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: Think of my mom and dad, Dad, who kept going 431 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: when times are really tough for us. I think of 432 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: christ I think of other people throughout history that have 433 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: persevered although they were faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles. But 434 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: I certainly don't think of Pamela Smart when I try 435 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: to find strength to persevere, take a listen to our 436 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery. Less than forty eight 437 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: hours after finding her husband murdered, Pam phones local TV 438 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamela's smart calls me and asks 439 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: me to interview, which completely just blows me away and 440 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: everybody else. When Spencer arrives for the interview, he's stunned 441 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: by Pam's appearance a little over twenty four hours after 442 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: a murder. The wife doesn't greet you dressed to the teeth, 443 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: make a perfect hair perfect. He's even more stunned by 444 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: Pam's strange behavior. One year ago today we were married 445 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: right about this, you know this time. One of the 446 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: first things that Pamela says is it's going to be 447 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: our one year wedding anniversary in a couple of days. 448 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: How would it be if I go into the refrigerator 449 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: because I've got the top layer of our wedding cake 450 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: and I could go pull that out, you could get 451 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: some b rolled and he's doing that, and wouldn't that 452 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't that make an emotional poignant moment in your story? 453 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: And I was like, holy cats, this girl is helping 454 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: me produce the story she's trying to She's trying to 455 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: produce the news story. Jack's miller. I remember when my 456 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: fiance Keith was murdered just before our wedding, and I 457 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: remember I couldn't even think straight. I just wanted to 458 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: go out into a forest and how I just I 459 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: can't even form sentences. Did you hear what the news 460 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: producer just said? Within less than forty eight hours after 461 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: the murder, Pam Smart's on the phone trying to do 462 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: a lead story. I wish you could see my face 463 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: right now. My jaw is on the floor because I've 464 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: never heard that before. This is the first time I'm 465 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: hearing that, and it's I'm having a total WTF moment here, 466 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: Like what is that? What is what is going on? 467 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: It's diabolical because she knows. Oh gosh, I don't even 468 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: have words. I don't. It's shocking, It's absolutely shocking. It's amazing. 469 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: Karen start jump in, Well, you know, I'm not the 470 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: least bit surprised. Think about it. Nancy. She's describing how 471 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 1: she feels about this guy, and she says, well, you know, 472 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: but I'm married. She doesn't say he's fifteen. She says, well, 473 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm married, her morals are correct, she doesn't know what 474 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: she's talking about, and all she's thinking about now, narcissistically, 475 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: is that she's going to be in front of a 476 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: camera and let's get the best story we could possibly get. 477 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised at all. I'm not shocked by this. 478 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: It's all about drama. She's young in her head and 479 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: she's not thinking about the loss of her husband. Obviously 480 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: not at all well. He goes quickly from high school 481 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: whisperings in the hall about a sex affair with a 482 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: teacher to ballistics listen. Local parent, forty five year old 483 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: Vance Ladimy, claims he has information about a murder. It's 484 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: very concerned because he thinks his son may be involved 485 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: in a homicide. Ladomy says that his seventeen year old 486 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: son Jr. And two of his friends have been talking 487 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: about committing a murder. This Aladomy gets to find out 488 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: that the gun that was supposed to use was a 489 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: thirty eight. He owns a thirty eighth. He goes and 490 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: checks to see whether his gun is in fact still 491 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: where he thought of what's supposed to be ol. He 492 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: opens his dresser. He takes a look at this firearm, 493 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: he says, I'll wait a second. I didn't clean this, 494 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: why is it clean? Now? The gun is sent out 495 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: for ballistics testing. When the results come back, police are astonished. 496 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: The single bullet that killed Greg Smart was fired from 497 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: Ladimeese gun train out to Chris Buyer's forearm. Police chief 498 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: now PI and polygrapher Chris Buyers. I think that a 499 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: lot of people don't get and they shouldn't. They're civilians. 500 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: Why should they know this that a ballistics match is 501 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: just as positive as a fingerprint a human fingerprint. Explain, Yeah, 502 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: every firearm is different. The barrels has grooves and spiraling 503 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: in it, and when the projectile leaves the muzzle of 504 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: that firearm, it leaves an imprint that matches only to 505 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: that firearm. So, like you say, it's just like the 506 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: human fingerprint, there's only one of those that are going 507 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: to match up. And so it's easy when you have 508 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: that projectile to come back, find that firearm, shoot some 509 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: rounds through it and compare it and know that that 510 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: is the firearm that that was fired from. Always wished 511 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: I had a video to show jarars. When guns are 512 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 1: actually made, they're made of boiling hot lead, and when 513 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: the barrel cools down, there are drippings and irregularities on 514 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: the inside of the barrel, the inside of the barrel, 515 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: and they harden and they can never be changed. So 516 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: when a bullet hurdles down that barrel so fast, it 517 00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches that no other 518 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: gun can leave. So when you find the gun in question, 519 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: you take a bullet and you go to the crime 520 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: lab and you fire it into a tub of water 521 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: or a pillow, and then you take your known bullet 522 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: that you just fired and the bullet from the body 523 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: or the scene. You look at them under a microscope 524 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: and you can see the exact same squiggles or markings 525 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: on the two bullets. That is how you do it, right, Chris, Absolutely, 526 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: that's exactly how it works. Well, amazingly there was more 527 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: evidence Jack's miller. What do you think was the single 528 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: most damning evidence at trial? Well, I think it was 529 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: two things. I think it was Cecilia Pierce wearing a 530 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: wire to get all the information that Pam divulged to her. 531 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: And I think it was Billy Flynn copping to a 532 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: plea deal in exchange for his testimony. I think that 533 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 1: those were the biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn, 534 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: the teen boy lover? What was his testimony, Jacks, So 535 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: he really he said everything. He was in this illicit 536 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: relationship with Pam. She was telling him that Greg was abusive. 537 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: She was afraid that if she tried to divorce him 538 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: or leave him, that he would take the dog and 539 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: take the money and take the furniture. So that's why 540 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: he did what he did. Phil Flann was actually fifteen 541 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: at the time. Jackson Miller the You hear Pam Smart's 542 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: mother insisting that these photos that came into trial were innocent. 543 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: They were taken for a modeling contest, but they came 544 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: into evidence. Isn't it true? The prosecution says these elicit 545 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: photos taken by Pam Smith, by Pam Smart were given 546 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: to Bill Flamm the teen boy. Yeah, you know, I 547 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: know that that there were the photos. I know that 548 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: they had watched some sexually charged films together. I mean, 549 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: it was very clear that she was producing the child essentially, 550 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: And yeah, that was one of the hugest factors. And 551 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: how she got this young boy to kill for her, 552 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: I mean, she can say no no, no, until she's 553 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: blue in the face. But then when the jury sees 554 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: the photos she's sending this team boy, there's really no 555 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: question in her mind, in their minds, she set out 556 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: to seduce the boy. That's child molestation, and then what 557 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: else would she do? That was the question for the jury. 558 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: Was no big surprise when pam Smart was convicted, But 559 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: what is a surprise is that even to this day, 560 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: she refuses to accept responsibility. Well, Pamela Smart's bid for 561 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: a community sentence has been rejected, but don't count Pamela 562 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: Smart out. We ain't seen the last of Pamela Smart. 563 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: Mark my words, Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye Friend,