1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Quody Doors, but Joseph's gotten more. Back in the nineties, 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: I used to be a fan of the program X Files. 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: There's never been anything like it on television. That was 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: kind of fascinated by it. It was interesting. It truly 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: was never understood how a port certified forensic pathologist I 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: became a FBI agent. That never made sense to me. 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: And she would conduct her on the autopsies. But that aside, Hollywood, 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: you know now, you know those things that we thought 9 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: were quite fantastic back then would show like the X Files. 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: It seemed to be getting into our I don't know 11 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: our common conversations now regarding things like extraterrestrial life. And 12 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: you know these people seeing things on radar, former Navy 13 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: fighter pilot seeing the infamous tic TACs, if you've seen 14 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: any of that stuff, And I've gotten kind of numb 15 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: to it now. 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: But what. 17 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: Happens if an individual believes that some extraterrestrial life form 18 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: has inhabited the body of a member of his family, 19 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and not just any member of his family, his father, 20 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: and in order to protect himself from said extraterrestrial life 21 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: inhabiting his father's body, he thinks it's a good idea 22 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: to probably kill him. Coming to you from the beautiful 23 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: campus of Jacksonville State University in Jacksonville, Alabama. I'm Joseph 24 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. When when I 25 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: saw the headlines of this, first off, I'm thinking, okay, 26 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: so you're saying that, you, h, the authorities have this 27 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: young man has harvested his his father's organs. I want 28 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: to know what organs? Uh, you know, what precisely was harveded? Harvested? 29 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: And then they're also using the term disembowelment, which. 30 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: Joe, I mean, I can't imagine what I think it means. 31 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: But what does disembowment really mean? 32 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the time with disembowelment, it's it's not 33 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: removal of the large and small intestine. Because when they 34 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: say bowel, that's that's the that's what they're referring to. 35 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, you know, when you 36 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: talk to physicians, surgeons in particular, and pathologists when you're 37 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: doing autopsies, they'll say, you know, we need to take 38 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: a look at at small bowel. They're not going to 39 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: say small intestine, small bowel, large bowel, And it's a 40 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, out of all all of the organ systems 41 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: that I dealt with in the autopsy suite, that was 42 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: probably the most unpleasant. And there's a couple of reasons why. 43 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: First off, when you open human remains and you get 44 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: into the abdominal cavity, if you disrupt the bowel in 45 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: any way, and certainly if you nick it, you're going 46 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: to have and even this is even with the fresh debt, 47 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: you're going to have kind of an eruption or presentation 48 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: of smell in the autopsy room that is very offensive. 49 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: And I'm saying, and this is a different kind of 50 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: smell that you have with you know, with with decomposition. 51 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 1: It makes the entire room smell like a bowel movement 52 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: and it doesn't dissipate because the body is laying there, 53 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: laid bare before you. So with this disembowelment, we can 54 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: look back in history there there have actually been, you know, 55 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: cases where uh, disembowlment was used as a means of death, 56 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: either self inflicted or or you know, when you have 57 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: the authorities that are have sanctioned some type of capital punishment. 58 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that comes to mind 59 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: is that scene from Brave Heart that with mel Gibson 60 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: where they have him strapped to the table at the 61 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: end of the movie. I don't want to if no 62 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: one's seen Brave Heart by this point, I don't think 63 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give a spoiler here. But you know, one 64 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: of the things that they say is they use a hook. 65 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: And the hook looks a lot like a gutting knife 66 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: that that you see today that people use with deer. 67 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of a It actually does have a hooked shape. 68 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: The inner portion of the blade is very very sharp, 69 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: and you run it up the midline and the bowels 70 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: fall out. Okay, there's that famous scene from Let's See 71 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: What was it? Was it the Red Dragon or was 72 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: it Hannibal? I can't remember one of the Silence of 73 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: Lambs movies, and Anthony Hopkins character actually says to the 74 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: Italian detective in there, bowels in or bowels out. And 75 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: this is before he throws him over a balcony, you know, 76 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: by hanging and yeah, he dissembut him and his bowels 77 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: are hanging out. And there's a lot of references to 78 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: this type of punishment that you can see in art 79 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: going back years and years. I think there's even a 80 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: character I can't remember which character one person in the 81 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: Bible that they refer was it Judas? I can't remember. Yeah, yeah, 82 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: his bowels, you know, erupted and that sort of thing. 83 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: And now I'm talking about two different things here relative 84 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: to the disembowelment of somebody, and then trying to have 85 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: our friends understand that that the bowel is something that 86 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: even in the morgue, it's not the most pleasant thing. 87 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: It's not like taking a heart out or taking lungs out. 88 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: And here's a little inside baseball for you as well. 89 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: One of the things. I worked with a pathologist for years, 90 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: and when small bowel was removed, he would have me 91 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: run what they call run the bowel. And so you 92 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: start and small intestine is long. It's long. You hear 93 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: all kinds of figures that are thrown out. Don't believe 94 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: what you hear, but it is. It is rather robust 95 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: in length. And so you have to start at at 96 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: one end essentially where the stomach dumps into the small intestine, 97 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: and you clip it off where it dumps into the 98 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: large intestine, and you take a pair of scissors. And 99 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: there's actually scissors that we have in the more called 100 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: battle scissors, and they've got kind of a it looks 101 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: like the bottom half of a duck bill on one side, 102 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: on the bottom portion, and then it's that duck bill 103 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: turns into a very sharp edge. It's a pair of 104 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: scissors and you have a regular the top aspect is 105 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: a regular presentation of scissors. And then you just kind 106 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: of pull the bowel over the surface of the scissors 107 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: and the bowel actually opens. And the reason we do 108 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: that and the morgue is to check for any kind 109 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: of pathology that might be existing in the bowel. Now, 110 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: it's painstaking, takes a while. You have to wash and 111 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: clean the bowel, and of course it's a foul undertaking, 112 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, as you can imagine. And then you get 113 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: into the large intestine, which is much shorter, easy to manage. 114 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 1: It gets really really nasty to get into that. And again, 115 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, we have to explore these areas if you're 116 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: going to actually do an autopsy and say that you've 117 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: done a full autopsy. That's part and parcel of what 118 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: you have to do. However, in our case today, I 119 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: don't think that that was the purpose of what the 120 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: Sun was setting out to do here. I don't think 121 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: he was looking for any kind of in dwelling disease 122 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: that his dad might have had. He's, according to what 123 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: we're understanding from the police, he was there to search 124 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: for alien life that in dwelled his father for the day. 125 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: You know, when the police initially rolled up on this case, 126 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: and by the way, this is in El Paso, Texas. 127 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 1: When they rolled up on this case, they were summoned 128 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: to the home. And I find this wording fascinating. They 129 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: rolled up at the house regarding that quote unquote unattended death. 130 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: And what that generally means when you hear unattended is 131 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: somebody may have peacefully passed away in their sleep. We 132 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: use the term unattended in medical legal circles by saying 133 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: that no one was physically there when they died. Okay, 134 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: And any unattended death in the departments that I worked for, 135 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: you had to you had to make an appearance at 136 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: the scene because there are some deaths that occur. You 137 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: have people that are gravely ill and and they pass on. Well, 138 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: was that death attended or unattended? And our you know, 139 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: the last shop that I was at, you know, our 140 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: rule of thumb was was that I don't care if 141 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: there was somebody living upstairs, and this person died on 142 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: the first floor and another person lives on the second floor. 143 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: If they passed away without somebody witnessing, that's an unattended death. 144 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: So we would go out and at least do an examination. 145 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: But can you imagine, can you imagine when these officers 146 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: from El Paso rolled up at the scene. I can 147 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: guarantee you, I can dollars to donuts. I guarantee you 148 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: that when these folks clocked in that morning, this is 149 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: the last thing they expected to see that day. 150 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: Well, you know, when you started off talking about aliens 151 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 2: and things like that, it almost almost unbuttoning the shirt, 152 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: you know, a little early because as we look at 153 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: this case, you have a father seventy four years old 154 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: and he's dead. In the days preceding his death, he's 155 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 2: calling one of his sons and saying, Hey, your brother, 156 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: Jamie is acting crazy again. I'm putting that in air quotes, 157 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: acting crazy again again. Got to add that to this, 158 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: he's acting crazy again. That means that within their nuclear family, 159 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: that tight little family circle, father and two sons, at least, 160 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: they're more than aware that Jamie is not balanced and 161 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 2: he has done this before. And based on what happened, 162 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to say he's been violent before. Now, if 163 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: Jamie has been violent before and has been acting crazy before, 164 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: did he blame those pastimes on aliens or did he 165 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: have some other thing to blame it on. In this case, 166 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: we've got Victor Contraras goes to the house to check 167 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: on his seventy four year old father, and before he 168 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: can make entry into the home, he smells rotting flesh. 169 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: He smells death. You've explained this before, Joe and have 170 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: talked about the smells that people incur when they come 171 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: upon a dead thing, a dead animal, a dead human. 172 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 2: Is there a big difference when you have a death 173 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: like we're talking about today, where the term disembowel has 174 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: been used. Is that a different smell than that of 175 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 2: rotting flesh or a combination of things going on. 176 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: After a period of time's going to end together. However, 177 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: there is that moment in time. I would think that 178 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: with the bowels outside of the body, And not to 179 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: mention Dave, I can't just kind of gloss over this. 180 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,599 Speaker 1: But if if this man was in fact disemboweled, and 181 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: we've got other injuries, we're going to talk about as well, 182 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: there's going to be a copious amount of blood that 183 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: will have issued for from his body. Now, even in 184 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: the case, I know what people are saying, well, what 185 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: if he was dead after it happened. Listen, if with 186 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: this level of trauma that they are at least intimating, 187 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, occurred, you're going to have puddles. Puddles are 188 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: different than pools. To me, that's kind of my own 189 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: view of it. You're going to have puddles of blood 190 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: that will, you know, kind of surround the body. You 191 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: can have pooled blood and maybe you know other people's 192 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, understanding a volume of blood that's been let 193 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: might be different. But I've always envisioned, you know, puddles 194 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: of blood and you're stomping through rain puddles and you'll 195 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,119 Speaker 1: have a copious amount of blood there on the surfaces, 196 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: and that's going to have a smell. You combine that 197 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: with the bowels that have now been released from the 198 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: abdomen that will have a particular smell. And additionally, he's 199 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: been down for a while. Now. What you're going to 200 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: be looking at here is that anytime you have a 201 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: body that is severely traumatized like this, you are sending 202 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: out a signal for every insect that is round about, 203 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: and flies will almost immediately show up. Okay, So that 204 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: process of you know that putrification is going to accelerate. Putrification, 205 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: as I teach, is different than autoliis. Autolsis is kind 206 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: of an internal breaking down. But something that's putrefied has 207 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: got internal and external forces working on it. And so 208 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: you're going to have a lot of flies that will 209 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: light And you say, well, my house is perfectly sealed. 210 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: I never see a fly in my house. Let me 211 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: tell you something. Where there's a will, there's a way 212 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: I've found for flies, they will get in there. I've 213 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: actually handled cases day of people that have died in 214 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: the summertime where I found flags have been laid on 215 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: the body within three hours of death. And I'm talking 216 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: about in the eyes and the nostrils. They stick out moist, moist, 217 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: dark areas to lay these eggs. And so again with 218 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: the fly activity, that's only going to further this. So 219 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: when they walk through the door, and this is not 220 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: something new to them, to the police officers, I can 221 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: assure you you know, l Pass is relatively nice sized place. 222 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: They will have been out on what he comes before, 223 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: and it's it's going to hit their senses like nobody's business, 224 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: and they're going to smell it. The son, who in 225 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: this case is the finder, I believe, correct, Dave correct? 226 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: He you know when he shows up at dad's domicile. Here, 227 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: how assaulting this is for a child to discover their 228 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: parents like this, And it's going to be a smell 229 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: more than likely unless he works in or around our field, 230 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: is going to be all the more assaulting to him. 231 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: And it's it's a horrible proposition because I can only 232 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: imagine this, this young man whose father has passed away. 233 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: He knows that he had been having conversations with his dad, 234 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you wonder if those 235 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: conversations began to flood back into his memory. And then 236 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: he's got this associated smell that's emanating from the home 237 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: and he is he hasn't yet found his dad's body, 238 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: because the smell is gonna will assault you way before 239 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: what you see assault you. It will be as soon 240 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: as he opens the door. Sometimes you can smell it 241 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: outside of the house. I've had that happen on many 242 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: occasions where I could smell riting flesh from within the 243 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: within the home before I ever opened the door, and 244 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: Katie barred the door when you do open it because 245 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: it slams you in the face. So he this poor child, 246 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: to this man has has really born witness, both in 247 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: the smell sense, in the in the visual sense, to 248 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: something that he probably wouldn't count on, Dave. 249 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: And that's where I was looking back to that initial 250 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: call from Dad saying, Hey, your brother's not acting right. 251 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: He's acting, you know, strange, he's acting weird. Again, when 252 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: when the sun gets there to check on his dad, 253 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: he realizes that things are not just not good because 254 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: the smell tells him. I'm going to go out on 255 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 2: a limb here and say he knew death was right 256 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 2: around the corner before he ever set foot in the 257 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: house because it's emanating from inside the house. And by 258 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: the way, Joe, it had to have been going on 259 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: for a couple of days, right, I mean, this is 260 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: not something that is going to just happen and poof. 261 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: You can you know tell there's a dead body inside. 262 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: This is something that's been going on for a couple 263 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 2: of days, all right. Now, when he gets in, we 264 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: know that his father is dead. We know that Victor Sr. 265 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: Is dead from well we've talked about disambal, but he's 266 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: got other injuries going on too. How are these other 267 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 2: injuries going to impact his body? Does your body deteriorate 268 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: faster when you have more injuries? 269 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that it does, and there's evidence 270 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: that it does because anytime you it's almost it's almost 271 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: like a ship. You know, if you if you insult 272 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: the structural integrity of a ship, it compromises, uh, everything 273 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: that's contained within the ship. Okay, so if you think 274 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: of our bodies as a vessel, and they're referred to 275 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: as vessels, uh in many texts throughout the throughout the world. 276 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: Every time there is an insult to any area of 277 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: the body, particularly where it's left a you know, a 278 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: gash or a slit or a stab wound or a 279 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: bullet hole or you know, a large opening body like 280 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: would be a soci with disembowment. For every every insult 281 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: to the body, I believe that you are increasing the 282 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: rate at which that body is going to decompose because 283 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: you violate the structural integrity of the body. So it's 284 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: going to break down quicker. That those spaces that are 285 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: normally protected in life are now open to an increased 286 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: rate of decomposition. It is also open to the external elements, 287 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: particularly heat in that environment, and it's also going to 288 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: be exposed to any kind of insect activity. And if 289 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: it's outdoors and you have animals about that would be 290 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: so inclined to go after the dead, you've increased that 291 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: factor as well. So Yeah, in answer to your question, yeah, 292 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: I believe that it does impact the rate at which 293 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: bodies de pose. But these injuries that this you know, 294 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: poor man sustained, just so we understand mister Contrera's victor, 295 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: there's evidence that not only was he disemboweled, you've got 296 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: blood deposition all over the house, which you would expect. 297 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: That means that probably something happened in life, unless it's 298 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: transferred blood that comes off of perpetrator and they're touching 299 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: the wall or touching some other surface. You've also got 300 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: what they have identified as stab wounds. So we know 301 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: from jump Street that we've got uh if as if 302 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: we need any further confirmation, we've got sharp for his 303 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: injuries to the body, and he's also got something else 304 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting here, Dave. They're kind of being 305 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: non specific, but I can I can probably guess what 306 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: this is. They're talking about a severe head injury or 307 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: head injuries. They're not saying cuts, and that takes us 308 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: down a completely different road. And oh yeah, by the way, 309 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: he's had his throat cut. So you've got this myriad 310 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: of injuries that have occurred. One of the problems that 311 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: the pathologist is going to be faced with because the 312 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: police are going to ask this question. And here it's 313 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: the classic question that we always get asked, You know 314 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: what sequence did these occur in? So, how did this 315 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: come about? At what stage did this come about? And 316 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: we've talked about before on body backs. Was it anti mortem, 317 00:22:42,840 --> 00:23:03,479 Speaker 1: perry mortem or post mortem? Only an autopsy can actually tell. So, 318 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: just so that we can revisit, you've got a father 319 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: who in life had contacted her to the other son 320 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: and stated that he made mention to his son, who 321 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: turns out to be the finder of Victor's body, says, 322 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: your brother's acting crazy again. That is that pretty? Is 323 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: that an accurate call? Dave? 324 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: As something that goes along with the Hey, your son, 325 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: your brother Jamie is acting crazy again. That's what Victor 326 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 2: Senior told Victor Jor And that made me look back 327 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: at a few things, Joe, because my first thought was, 328 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: if dad is calling the son and saying, hey, he's 329 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: acting crazy again, that's a fearful thing to say that 330 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: to his son. It's asking for help without asking for help, 331 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 2: it's saying I got a problem I can't deal with here. Well, 332 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: I looked it up. Sure enough, police have been called before, 333 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 2: because before this happened, police showed up because Jamie Contreras, 334 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 2: the son, actually took a hammer to his father and 335 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: hit his father in the head with a hammer a 336 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 2: couple of times prior to this, and police showed up 337 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: for that one. And that's where the call your brother's 338 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: acting crazy again came from, because there was the prior attack, 339 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: I believe. So when you start looking at this, one 340 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: of the things I noticed, Joe is, first of all, 341 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: when Victor Junior gets there and he smells death through 342 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: a window he's outside when he comes in the house 343 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: and he sees what is obviously a body on the floor, 344 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: and it's covered in a very very bloody sheet, and 345 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: he says that when he took the sheet off, the 346 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 2: body was very bloated. Yeah, and which that indicates a 347 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: number of things to you as an investigator that probably 348 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: passed by people like me. We just kind of assume 349 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: we see a dog on the side of the road, 350 00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: they bloat. But it's got to mean a whole lot 351 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: more when it's a human being inside of a home 352 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 2: as you try to determine, you know, how long he's 353 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: been there. But there was there were wounds to his head. 354 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: I'm thinking that those were caused probably by a hammer. 355 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 2: I got nothing to go on except that he had 356 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: beat him with a hammer of before. And I'm thinking, 357 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: whenever we've done a story about somebody getting hit with 358 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: a hammer, it's in their. 359 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: Head, Yeah it is, and that's you know, that's where 360 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: you're going to attack. That's where I think most assailants 361 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: would attack someone with a hammer. I mean, you know, 362 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: you can take and I've seen I've seen strikes on 363 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: the torso before. But you know, you got to keep 364 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: in mind that with hammer attacks, just about any kind 365 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: of blunt force attack, they're going to be very frenzied. 366 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: They're not real well ordered. But the goal is because 367 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: if you're wielding a hammer against someone, your ultimate goal 368 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: is to kill them, okay, and so with these hammer strikes, 369 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: what you're going to see are going to be these 370 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: that is, okay, there's a couple of things that we 371 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: have to throw in here. If each one of these 372 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: hammer strikes, the hammer is oriented in the manner in 373 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: which we commonly think of a hammer, where you've got 374 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: the business end of the hammer that's driving a nail. Okay, 375 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: if it's perfectly oriented like that, then you're going to 376 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: get an interesting little laceration sometimes that might have a 377 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: curve to it that may or may not marry up 378 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: with the blunt edge of a hammer. If the hammer 379 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: is textured in any way that surface, like if it's 380 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: got kind of a herring bone texture to it, I 381 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: don't know if I'm saying that right. Kind of crisscross. 382 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: Some of them will be that will actually imprint itself 383 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: on the skin as an overlying abrasion. Contusions and contusion 384 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: or two different things. So you'll have that top layer 385 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: of skin that's erupted as a result of an abrasion, 386 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: think about skin, the skin, elbow, and then that hemorrhage 387 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: that kind of eccentrically goes out from that central strike 388 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: point where the little vessels have been erupted and it's 389 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: bleeding out those areas are bleeding out in an interstitial tissue. 390 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: The question is how many times was he struck and 391 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: how what was the level of lethality, Because just because 392 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: somebody gets hit in the head with a hammer doesn't 393 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that they're dead or that they're going to die. 394 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: Now I can tell you there's high probability you're gonna 395 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: do some serious injury, and so you're not that's not 396 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: going to be revealed until you can actually take back 397 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: the scalp and you look at the under underlying external 398 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: table of skull. And there's some images that I've used 399 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: in classes over the years where you know you'll have 400 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: a depending upon the size of the hammer, the business 401 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: end as I like to refer to it, because I 402 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: don't know what the actual name of the end of 403 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: the hammer is that's struck with the head of the hammer. 404 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: It's they vary in size, and I've seen like quarter size, 405 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: like the currency quarter twenty five cents size strikes strike 406 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: points and you'll actually see a ring I hate to 407 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: say ring fracture because that's a specific fracture that happens 408 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: at the base of skull, but it has a circular appearance. 409 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: Let's just say that and it drives that bit of 410 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: skull if it detaches completely into the dura matter which 411 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: covers the brain, and if you hit hard enough, it'll 412 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: actually go into the brain. So if you get multiple 413 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: of these strikes where you've got that kind of intrusion 414 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: into the cranial vault, yeah, there's high probability somebody's going 415 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: to die. But Dave, I'm I'm fascinated by the fact 416 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: that he's struck multiple times with a hammer. But you 417 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: still feel the need not you universal you or I 418 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: guess the son suspect you. You still feel the need 419 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: to take an edge weapon and cut your father's throat. 420 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: That's kind of Is it overkill? Yeah? I mean to me, 421 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: it is, But why do you need to go that far? 422 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: Well, Joe, there's something else in this that I wanted 423 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: to ask you about, regarding the fact that blood spatter 424 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: was throughout the house. Yeah, And in my head, I'm thinking, 425 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 2: you got the front door lock, back door locked. The 426 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: only window that's open is the bedroom window, and that's 427 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 2: where the father's body is found in his bedroom. But 428 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: blood spatter around the house. All I'm thinking is that 429 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 2: the father is trying to get away from the son 430 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: who is allegedly attacking him. I'm thinking there's a hammer involved, 431 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: and you're right, he's automny is chasing him. But you've 432 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: got blood spatter, which means something's being swung, right. I 433 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: mean it's got to be cast off. Is that's what 434 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: I think? 435 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it can be. It can be cast off. 436 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: But again you have to kind of couch your terms 437 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: here a little bit. Uh. I lean more to being 438 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: conservative with the sorts. 439 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: This is called knowing just enough to be really wrong. 440 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: No, you will, Okay, just imagine I always like to 441 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: use the paintbrush description. 442 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: And that's where I'm picturing from the hammer. 443 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so every time you now, the first strike 444 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: that you have with hammer is not going to generate 445 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: blood more than likely. So when the head is struck, 446 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: you've got a couple of layers you have to go through. 447 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: First off, you've got to go through a scalp. Well, 448 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: hair and scalp. Okay, do you know hair thickness can 449 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: affect this as well. So if you strike a guy 450 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: with really thick hair or woman really thick hair as 451 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: opposed to a bald person, the hair can actually cushion, okay, 452 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: to a certain degree, and people don't think about that, 453 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: but it can. You got that dynamic working. But let's 454 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: just say it's sufficient enough to strike down. You hit 455 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: that first surface, you've compromised the structural integrity. My contention 456 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: has always been that you have to strike again in 457 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: order to kind of put blood onto that surface. That 458 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: when we talk about cast off, you're drawing the hammer 459 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: back over the top of your head like you're flinging 460 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: something over your shoulder, and you kind of are and 461 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: you'll get this kind of arcing deposition on the walls 462 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Also, if he's swinging, if 463 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: he's swinging not in the vertical plane but in the 464 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: horizontal horizontal plane, say he strikes it down side of 465 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: the head and then draws it back sideways so that 466 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: you're in the horizontal plane. Then you're throwing blood on 467 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: the wall to the side. It's not always going to 468 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: be over the head. I think some people think that 469 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: all off is over the top of the head, over 470 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: the shoulder. It can be, and most of the time 471 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: that's what happens. But if somebody these things are very dynamic, 472 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: it's not. These things don't occur in a vacuum. Okay, 473 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: they have to be real careful about the interpretation of 474 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: blood deposition and thinking about that. And then if he 475 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: has had I don't know, maybe a moment of obsidity 476 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: at some point in time where he looks down his 477 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: hands and you know, he's touched the surface father's body 478 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: and it's got blood all over it, and then he 479 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: proceeds to touch the wall, then that's that's transfer blood 480 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: that you have. So if the instrument that you're utilizing 481 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: has got blood on it, that blood is going to 482 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: drip down off of the head of the hammer, down 483 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: onto the handle of the hammer, you know, transfer onto 484 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: your hands. And so you know, if he touched the 485 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: wall with that, if he's got blood on his clothing 486 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: and he bumps into the wall, that's going to transfer over. 487 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: So it's really important to try to categorize this blood 488 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: deposition that you're talking about. 489 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask you this, Joe, because we talked 490 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: about the neck being sliced his neck, Yeah, ye, all right, 491 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: And I hate to reference everything to a television show or. 492 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: A movie, but oh no, that's okay. 493 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: In the TV show Breaking Bad, the Chicken Guy, he 494 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: actually there's a scene in it where he actually cuts 495 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: the neck uses the box cutter to slice the neck 496 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: open of one of Victor. Actually the guy's name is Victor, 497 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: and I think and when he does that, he holds 498 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: him and blood squirts out of his neck. Okay, it's 499 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: the blood is squirting. Is that going to happen when 500 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: you slice someone's neck or does it have to be 501 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: sliced in a perfect way or is that just a 502 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 2: movie TV thing? 503 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: No, it's not just simply a movie TV thing, because 504 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: what they're demonstrating there is it's kind of arterial spray. 505 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: They refer to it as and the pressure that's built up. 506 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: The question is are I think that because arterial arterial 507 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: deposition of blood has got a very distinct appearance to it. 508 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: It's not high velocity blood deposition like you see with 509 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: someone is shot, because the blood becomes almost a histamine. 510 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: Like I tell my students, if you want to know 511 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: what high velocity blood deposition looks like, go go home, 512 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: get an airsolt can of hair spray, and just pump 513 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: at one time onto your mirror and you'll see kind 514 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: of what that looks like. It's very particulate and tiny 515 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: with arterial deposition, particularly if the throat is cut and 516 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: you've gotten down into a carotid. You know, most of 517 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: the time veins ooze and artery spray, So if you're 518 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: into arterial spray in turn, in this case, if you're 519 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: thinking about akroti that has been sliced, then the heart 520 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: is still beating. And what's fascinating I've always been fascinated 521 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: by these people that do the blood interpretation is that 522 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: as the heart beats and blood is pouring out of 523 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: or being ejected out of an artery, they can see 524 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: and this is pretty fascinating. They can see with every 525 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: contraction of the heart. Then that's fascinating because the blood 526 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: itself actually presents in a manner in which you can 527 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,399 Speaker 1: see where every single time the heart beats and it 528 00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: sprays the blood in that direction, boom, boom boom. That's 529 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: how they come up with these interpretations, which is absolutely 530 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: fascinating to me that they can do this, and you know, 531 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: and of course there's all these other things that they do, 532 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, where they can track somebody's movement. And I'm 533 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: not talking about a perpetrator, though that does exist. I'm 534 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: talking about somebody that is initially injured in one part 535 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: of the house and they egress through the house where 536 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: maybe they're touching a wall. And I've actually seen blood 537 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: deposition on a wall day where it starts off at 538 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: the highest point and it travels downward diagonally as a 539 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: person is losing their will or their ability to thrive, 540 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: goes down the wall all the way down the hallway. 541 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: I'll never forget a case that I had like that 542 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: until they're dead at the end of the hallway, and 543 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: you can actually kind of map that by these blood 544 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: depositions on the wall. And it can come in any 545 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: number of forms. You've got this pass of dripping that 546 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: happens that you know, you know famously, We've talked about 547 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: this with Ellen Greenberg with a blood flowing out of 548 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: her mouth where gravity is pulling it down. So you 549 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: get one large droplet of blood and you'll see gravity 550 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: begin to pull pull that blood downward, Okay, and then 551 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: or you can have smear, which might be a transfer. Okay. 552 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: So there's any number of depositions that are out there 553 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: relative to the blood that are going to tell you 554 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: a lot about what happened. I'm interested in the end 555 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: of life for Victor because he's found somebody took the 556 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: time to put a sheet over him. But there's a 557 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: lot of activity that took place before that sheet ever 558 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: got on the body. 559 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: Dave there is and Joe. You know, as I'm doing 560 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 2: a little research on this and found out about the 561 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 2: hammer attack and how the father was concerned enough about 562 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 2: previous activities by the suspect here his son, Jamie. One 563 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: thing that had come out is that apparently Jamie had 564 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 2: killed Victor's pets, his father's pets. Now they made it 565 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: plural in reporting, but didn't exactly tell us whether it 566 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: was cats, dogs, rabbits, birds, I don't know what it was, 567 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 2: but he was killing them. And as we look at 568 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: a man who would say that the reason, you know, 569 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 2: when police did catch up with Jamie Contreras, he told 570 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 2: them they said, hey, where's your dad, And he said, 571 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: he's in heaven and he explained how the aliens had 572 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: taken over him and they took his bowels or what 573 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: have you. I mean, whatever crazy explanation the guy came 574 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: up with, but he had this. The same guy, Jamie Contreras, 575 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 2: had walked through his neighborhood a couple of years ago 576 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 2: carrying a decapitated rabbit. So I guess my thing here, Joe. 577 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 2: Is when you've got a guy who's thirty nine years 578 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: old and two years ago you see him walking through 579 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: the neighborhood carrying a decapitated rabbit, how is he still 580 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 2: walking around outside of a hospital or jail. 581 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I really don't. 582 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 2: If I saw that right now, Joe, I'd be on 583 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: the phone with you saying, please call somebody. I mean, 584 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: I would freak out if somebody was walking I live 585 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 2: in a neighborhood. You've see my neighborhood. If I saw 586 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 2: somebody walking down the hill in front of my house 587 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: carrying a bunny rabbit and the head was chopped off 588 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 2: and they were walking like, no big deal, I'm freaking out. 589 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got a problem at that point, Tom, And 590 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: answer to your question. You know, we could talk for 591 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: days about, you know, mental health in our country and 592 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: the way the mentally ill or dealt with And you know, 593 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: we don't know a lot about his background relative to 594 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,919 Speaker 1: what kind of psychopathology you know he may have have had. 595 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: But if he just on the surface and played junior 596 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: psychiatrists here for a second, just on the surface, if 597 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: you believe that you've had communications with extra terrestrials. You know, 598 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: this sounds like he's in a delusional state. You know, 599 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe he's got schizophrenia or something like that. 600 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: I've actually worked a case and I mentioned this before, 601 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: with a young man that took his own life and 602 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 1: he didn't intend to, but he he did. And that's 603 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: because he thought Cia had put a microphone in his 604 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: forearm and he cut his arm open. I think we 605 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: over thirty times. He cut his arm. Yeah, no, and 606 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: he lived with his parents and he was looking for 607 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: the microphone that was in his forearm. Okay, so I 608 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,720 Speaker 1: don't you know, I'm not saying that I'm not saying 609 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: that he should not be held responsible for what he 610 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: has done to his father. He bloody well should. But 611 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: the problem is, you don't know what his perception of 612 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: reality is, you know, if he's and again we go 613 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: back to this idea of he's killing animals, you know 614 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: kind of you know, you kind of got a sign 615 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 1: there that there's real underlying, you know, kind of a 616 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: threat of violence that's resting here. And here's another thing 617 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting. If he has got a history, 618 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: he might not just perhaps be killing his dad's animals. 619 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: I'd be interested to know if if he has killed 620 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: anybody else's animals and if he has whatever the sharp 621 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: instrument that he has chosen to use in this case, 622 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: was this instrument actually used to kill any animals with? 623 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: And this is from a forensic standpoint. This is kind 624 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,240 Speaker 1: of fascinating because you know, I think any of us 625 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: can walk around and we can say, hey, you know 626 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: you look down at a red substance that's you know, 627 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: on a knife blade or laid on or that's deposited 628 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: on the floor, and you say, hey, that's blood. That's 629 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: all find good for you and I to have that 630 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: conversation and say yeah, that's blood doesn't work in court 631 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: because you have to when you're processing these scenes. There's 632 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: a whole series of testing that has to go on. 633 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 1: First off, you have to do a test that says 634 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: if this is or is not blood? Okay? You go 635 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: from that level too, is this animal or human blood? 636 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: And then you get into typing, you know where you 637 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: know the old zerology model where you're trying to type 638 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: the blood and then that spins off into DNA. But 639 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: you have to establish first an instrument might have blood 640 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: on it, but wouldn't it be fascinating to learn in 641 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: this case, if they tested this knife blade and they 642 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,919 Speaker 1: found remnants of not just mister Contrare his blood on there, 643 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: but maybe an older sample that's on there that turns 644 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: out to be a cat or rabbit, a dog, you 645 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: never know if that's the instrumentality that he that he prefers, 646 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: because he's obviously got an affinity for sharp weapons, and 647 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,439 Speaker 1: you know, we haven't he you know, talked about talked 648 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: about the this disembowlment to take place, which, by the way, 649 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: we've talked about this with dismemberment. But if you don't 650 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: have the tools to facilitate disembowlment, it's not an easy process. 651 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,760 Speaker 1: I think people think that it. 652 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 2: Is not just slicing the belly open and everything comes 653 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 2: gushing out, right. 654 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like I don't know, I can't remember 655 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: the Japanese term. It's not Harry Carey, but it's sepuku 656 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: or I can't remember the kind of ritualized form. It 657 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: doesn't and that's highly ritualized with very sharp instruments, where 658 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: there's a specific process that takes place with that with disembowlment, 659 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: and you know, if you're going to use a household instrument. 660 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: First off, it have to be very sharp, and you'd 661 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: have to have certain tolerances built into your own psyche 662 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: that would allow you to do that, to hover over 663 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: your dad's body and literally split him wide open. And 664 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, they didn't just talk about Dave in this case, 665 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: that this was a disembowlment case. They mentioned organs as well. 666 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: So I wonder what was found in and out of 667 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: the body, if anything had been removed, was or all 668 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: of the organs accounted for? Had they been taken off somewhere? 669 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. And that's that's what 670 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating about this case. 671 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 2: Ma Man, you were actually right about the term sepekaepuku 672 00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 2: sepp uku. And it also goes with Harry Carey self disembolment. Okay, okay, 673 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 2: I remember that from Tarawa but world War two stuff. 674 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 675 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,840 Speaker 2: The thing is here, Joe, is when we're dealing with 676 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 2: a case where there's a thought that maybe mental illness 677 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 2: has come come into play, where there is a I 678 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 2: don't want to say every violent act that goes far 679 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 2: to you know, cutting people up and things like that, 680 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: isn't crazy, but to a normal to what we consider normal. 681 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 2: I mean, it just seems like way out there. But 682 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 2: can you when you're walking a scene, can you actually 683 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 2: see a difference in the mental state of the person 684 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 2: committing the act. Is there a frenzied, out of control 685 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 2: thing that you can find in the evidence or can 686 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,399 Speaker 2: you not separate anger from crazy, pain from fear? 687 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: Now, I know what you're saying. I think that if 688 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: somebody is we'll say, how can I term this? If 689 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: somebody has psycho pathology going on, okay like that, where 690 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: they have voices that are telling them perhaps that your 691 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: dad has been, you know, inhabited by extraterrestrial life. If 692 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: that's their perception, then it might become more methodical, as 693 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: opposed to some person that comes home and finds their 694 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: spouse in bed with another person and they pick up 695 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,359 Speaker 1: a hammer or a knife and they proceed to kill 696 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: both people, and that's going to be a very frenzy 697 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: disordered event. And again, you know, you when profilers look 698 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: at these sorts of things, I find it fascinating as 699 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: well that he's been killing animals and we know what 700 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: that's associated with many times as a lead up. You know, 701 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: I think that that's something that they would certainly consider 702 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: and you know, there can be and don't misconstrue what 703 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying here, there can be. I think with a 704 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: mentally ill there can almost be a ritualized form of this. 705 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like a ritualized killing per se. 706 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: But if you're listening to an outside voice or what 707 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: you perceive to be an outside voice, and they're giving 708 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: you instructions, you put this here, you know you I 709 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: don't know. You remove this organ and you put it 710 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: up on the shelf. You remove this organ, you put 711 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: it there. You need to take this organ and put 712 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: it in the refrigerator, because that's the key organ. You 713 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: have to keep it isolated from everything else. Whatever the 714 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,439 Speaker 1: voice is telling them to do, that's what's directing them 715 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: at that point in time. Now, if you've got somebody 716 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,839 Speaker 1: that does have mental illness and they feel as though 717 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,719 Speaker 1: they're being attacked, then yeah, I would imagine it could 718 00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: leach over into this idea that it's frenzied. But Dave, 719 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,439 Speaker 1: he he actually admitted, correct me if I'm wrong that 720 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: he was being told something that kind of initiated this 721 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,319 Speaker 1: whole thing, or he was making a stay, wasn't He 722 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:02,839 Speaker 1: didn't he say something. 723 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was his belief that aliens had taken over, 724 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 2: that his father was gone, that his father was no 725 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 2: longer there. The person he was looking at was not 726 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 2: his father, It was an alien some And actually, you 727 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 2: know what I think At this point there have been 728 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 2: a number of different things said and or written about 729 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,960 Speaker 2: this case. It's still fairly new. This is an ongoing 730 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 2: issue right now as they try to separate. This began 731 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 2: with haven't heard from my dad in a while? You know, 732 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 2: that typical call where the son comes to check on, 733 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 2: you know, his father, And it turns into this big 734 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,839 Speaker 2: bag of what in the heck are we dealing with? 735 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,439 Speaker 2: Are we dealing with somebody who really has checked out 736 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 2: from life mentally and is seeing things and hearing things. 737 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 2: Does he truly believe that aliens have disemboweled his father 738 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 2: and taken over his body? I mean, I don't know 739 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 2: what's going on in the guy's psyche or anything else, 740 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 2: but I do know this, Joe, if you were going 741 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,759 Speaker 2: to walk in on that crime scene, which it is 742 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,040 Speaker 2: a crime scene, regardless of whether the guy's in control 743 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 2: of himself, but you're going to have to just you're 744 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 2: not going to hear the stories. You're not going to 745 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 2: the story of aliens, and that it doesn't impact you 746 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,720 Speaker 2: until after the fact. And we'll be writing a book 747 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 2: because you're going to look at this and tell me 748 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 2: what happened based on the evidence. 749 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it will be and and those in the 750 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: morgue as well, you know when and look, I'd be 751 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: lying if I said that. You know, pathologists are not 752 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: filled in on what they've what the police have heard 753 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: out on the scene. They're going to know that, okay, uh, 754 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,360 Speaker 1: you know at this point, you know, when he rolls 755 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: in to the more decomposed by the way, they're only 756 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: going to have the snatches and hints at things like, 757 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 1: for instance, if this guy has been walking around the 758 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: neighborhood with decapitated animal bodies, he first off, he's going 759 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:04,439 Speaker 1: to be known to the local beat unit if they've 760 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: been called out on domestics there. That information would actually 761 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: come to the cops at the scene, because what the 762 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: cops are going to do and are the detectives who 763 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: are cops, but you have detectives at the scene, they 764 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: will ask the shift supervisor okay, which might be a 765 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,399 Speaker 1: lieutenant or a sergeant, and say, hey, have you guys 766 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: had contact at this house before, and the sergeant, particularly 767 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 1: in a case like I can only imagine a case 768 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 1: like this, the sergeant is gonna say, what we felt 769 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: like we need to sit up outside the house out 770 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: here because we were always getting called here. Have you 771 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,120 Speaker 1: ever had contact with any people in the house. Yeah, 772 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,759 Speaker 1: we've talked to the old man because he told us 773 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: that he was afraid of his son, or we have 774 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,919 Speaker 1: taken the son aside and said, look, you gotta cool 775 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: it out, man, You know you can't behave this way, 776 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: or maybe they've taken the kid in for observation. Again 777 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,480 Speaker 1: dollars to know, nuts, bet you this kid has gone 778 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: in probably in the back of a police car an 779 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: ambulance and taken in for observation at some point in time. 780 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 1: That most of the time this kind of thing just 781 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: doesn't just materialize out of nothing. You know, you're going 782 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: to have history, and in this case where you've got 783 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: a young man who has reportedly been saying, as he 784 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: is related to the police, that he wanted the aliens 785 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,719 Speaker 1: to give me my power as he struck his dad down. 786 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: We're going to keep our eye on this case and 787 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: know that more will probably develop we'll find out what 788 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,879 Speaker 1: happens here to the sun. Has he been taken in 789 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,359 Speaker 1: for an evaluation. Is he going to be placed into 790 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,359 Speaker 1: an area where he can perhaps get help, get medicated, 791 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: get him in a position where maybe he can stand 792 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,360 Speaker 1: trial at some point in time, because this is a 793 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: horrific homicide and somebody has to be held responsible. But 794 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,239 Speaker 1: we do know this, this man, who obviously loves his 795 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,160 Speaker 1: children has died at the hand of his own son 796 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: and was left to decompose in the home where he 797 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: welcomed them on a regular basis. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 798 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,240 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks